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WCS nerf is pretty heavy.

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Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Beef Hardslab on 24/10/2006 19:07:18 Ahh cool.. never used them even though I trained them. Good point about the lack of scram too, didn't think of that. I'm just trying to think of loopholes ahead of time. Edit: What about drones? Do they get affected by the new WCS negatives?
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:06:00 - [62] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. What's the problem ? I don't anything wrong with that. _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:12:00 - [63] Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. If you're going to blow up someone, you should also face the fact that you may get blown up in return. Great. Fine. Dandy. But what if I just want to run my mission in 0.4 space? I don't want to blow up the pirates that will try to gank me there, I just want to run away. But with this nerf I won't even be able to fit ONE warp core stab without making running a level 4 mission impossible. It's probably a fair nerf for PVP, but it's hellish unfair to mission runners. And yes, I know, PVP > PVE, yadda yadda yadda. So take all mission running out of the game and see how many subscribers you have left. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Snodgey2004 Mega Modal M0nkeys	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:15:00 - [64] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. I praise this , I dislike the fact people fit stabs on combat ships in the first place the heavier the penalty the better as far as I'm concerned . I've had a few Vagas in my life-time and none has ever seen a stab near it . What I like is the fact there are people like me that don't fit stabs to any ship so it doesn't change much , so the people you do see running around in Vagas pwning people will continue to do so , it also makes their job alot easier because you can't stab up yourself either
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:16:00 - [65] Since I am fairly new to this game I am a bit shocked about how this change has come to pass and can only wonder if it is the way things have always worked. Am I to understand that if a group of players make a demand using such engaging and subjective arguments as "...WCS and combat don't go together..." or "...stabs should only be used by industrialists..." that these arguments are blindly accepted and point to something as being "wrong". Honestly, give the forum readers ONE objective argument for this nerf...one... As it stands the nerf is far too extreme in my relatively newb opinion. But in this case the *subjective* opinion of one does not carry much weight. So I'll just ST*U now. By the way, personally this nerf is almost ignorable since I very rarely fit WCS on any ship including haulers. I'm just speaking out on principal. I prefer to take the risk and maximize hold capacity. Cargo Expanders FTW (or are they up for a nerf soon???)...better be quiet now... Buskerdu
Valhalior Caldari Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:18:00 - [66] Any info on WCS Tech II nerf that was won recently? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:19:00 - [67] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. LoL, thats fine with me. The Vaga fights at 16k.
Alerce	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:22:00 - [68] Got to agree about the mission runners. NOT fitting any warpstab is just gambling on certain dead, well its not even gambling. If you just do certain missions some several times, you know there will be a time, u get blown up. Because certain missions have way too many npc, that can scramble and lots of them have npcs that have +2 scramble strength as well. Sorry, but i do hope these missions WILL be changed, with this forced warpstab story. Most mission runners dont care at all about all the carebear pvp-ers and the so-called real pvp-ers that still fit warpstabs anyway.....
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. If you're going to blow up someone, you should also face the fact that you may get blown up in return. Great. Fine. Dandy. But what if I just want to run my mission in 0.4 space? I don't want to blow up the pirates that will try to gank me there, I just want to run away. But with this nerf I won't even be able to fit ONE warp core stab without making running a level 4 mission impossible. It's probably a fair nerf for PVP, but it's hellish unfair to mission runners. And yes, I know, PVP > PVE, yadda yadda yadda. So take all mission running out of the game and see how many subscribers you have left. Risk versus reward. If you want to make the extra 20-50% more isk missions in low-sec offer you should have to face the dangers of low-sec. It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions, it adds danger to low-sec systems that was supposed to be there all along, and up until this phase of every ship fitting stabs, It was. Besides, fit a stab on your raven, It will still allow you to mission, Just slower. What this does, is remove the bonus of going to low-sec for people who dont take any risk going into low-sec. Eve is a risk vs reward game, not a "I want easy mode" game. If anyone wants an easy mode game, stay in empire, or go play wow. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:59:00 - [70] Quote: What this does, is remove the bonus of going to low-sec for people who dont take any risk going into low-sec. Eve is a risk vs reward game, not a "I want easy mode" game. If anyone wants an easy mode game, stay in empire, or go play wow. More subjectivity. Couldn't the use of Warp Jammers be considered "easy mode"? The risk component for anyone traveling into low-sec exists every time you leave high-sec space. There is no "bonus" for anyone without accepting a certain amount of risk every time they go below 0.5. The risk comes in many forms; being forced to retreat (yes possibly through the use of stabs) means you do not accomplish your objectives period. That is a risk you take whether you are a combat pilot, mission-runner and not able to complete a mission in-time or at all (a bit far-fetched perhaps but...) or a trader and are unable to get your product to market. Give me a break with all of your subjective "if I can't lock you down and kill you under my rules then I won't be happy..." nonsense. Why WCS were not simply reverted back to being active modules is beyond me. Put them on the same footing as jammers. If anything, the nerf should have impacted your ability to engage warp; how we got to a combat related nerf is beyond me. Still waiting for an objective/fact-based reason for this nerf?

Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:06:00 - [72] If anything, this nerf doesnt go far enough. I feel a more balanced change would be this; The first stab you fit starts a self-destruct sequence on your ship, of 800 seconds. Each stab you fit after this halves the time your ship has to live. Hurry
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:08:00 - [73] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. Funny, that. I don't recall ever fitting wcs's for missions (of any level). Hint: you're supposed to kill the npcs, not run away. It sounds like this only nerfs people who suck at missions. Not a tragedy, as such.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:08:00 - [74] But it will still be able to operate at 16km, and scramble, and stay out of web range. Not harsh enough IMO. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. uhm... and I've ran missions untill today without even using a single stab. gotta love light drones to dispose of those pesky npc tacklers. yes lvl4 missions. yes in low-sec. more specifically in a .3 until today I only lost 1 ship to pirates while missioning (waves to frankinator), and that was because I wasn't paying attention to local. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
0Virtu0 Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. fapfapfapfapfapfap.
Aquila Lightwielder N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:15:00 - [77] more more nerf them more ;) Teh NAGA ShopÖ
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:17:00 - [78] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. Well maybe if you tried to fit something useful in the lo slots you wouldnt suck as much? Only time I've died during a mission is because I went afk after I hit warp at an acceleration gate. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:19:00 - [79] Originally by: Buskerdu Quote: What this does, is remove the bonus of going to low-sec for people who dont take any risk going into low-sec. Eve is a risk vs reward game, not a "I want easy mode" game. If anyone wants an easy mode game, stay in empire, or go play wow. More subjectivity. Couldn't the use of Warp Jammers be considered "easy mode"? Its harder to get into 7.5k and engage someone who doesnt want to be engaged then its is to use a stab. On top of that, stabs dont require cap while running, and on most ships mid slot's are more valuable then low slots. Quote: The risk component for anyone traveling into low-sec exists every time you leave high-sec space. There is no "bonus" for anyone without accepting a certain amount of risk every time they go below 0.5. The risk comes in many forms; being forced to retreat (yes possibly through the use of stabs) means you do not accomplish your objectives period. That is a risk you take whether you are a combat pilot, mission-runner and not able to complete a mission in-time or at all (a bit far-fetched perhaps but...) or a trader and are unable to get your product to market. If you can safefly fly around in low-sec, without being intelligent (aka fitting stabs instead of scanning gates, getting intel, and planning your route) it removes the "risk". The bonus of flying into low-sec is there, missions are worth more, trade goods sell better cross regions, better minerals, so saying there is no bonus with low-sec versus high-sec is retarded. You can do everything in high-sec you can in low-sec, and just not make as much isk. Thats the bonus. Quote: Give me a break with all of your subjective "if I can't lock you down and kill you under my rules then I won't be happy..." nonsense. Why WCS were not simply reverted back to being active modules is beyond me. Put them on the same footing as jammers. If anything, the nerf should have impacted your ability to engage warp; how we got to a combat related nerf is beyond me. Its not about locking people down and killing them under anyones rules, its about balance. Every other module in the game has some sort of cost, use cost, stacking penalty or harder fitting reqs then other modules. Stabs dont. This is balance, it doesnt get much more objective then that. Make it active, a mid slot, and double cap usage as 20K scram scram (as you would need two 20K scrams to stop it from warping) if you wanted to make an exact opposite module. Its not a combat nerf, its a sensor nerf (which yes may nerf combat). Think of it in terms of how a ship is setup, if you are diverting more power to your warp drive, what sub-system would you want that power to come from? Engines are needed to escape, weapons are needed to fight back, which means energy would be moved from the sensors to the warp drive. But yea, its still not a combat nerf, its a sensor nerf. Quote: Still waiting for an objective/fact-based reason for this nerf? Eh, you seemed to biased and angry to see anyones points but your own. o/ Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. /wave I run leve 4's in a raven, in low-sec. If your smart, you dont need stabs, as I have yet to fit one. You just take the scramming frigs out with drones or long range. It may take some of the mind-numbing boredom out of the first few moments on a level 4, but after that, dont worry, you cna go back to not paying attention! __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:21:00 - [80] Edited by: Beef Hardslab on 24/10/2006 20:24:01 OK I'm sorry, allow me to reword it then... WCS nerf affects NEWBIE mission runners with low SP (like myself), who have not done every mission a thousand times, don't know what to expect and aren't sure if their tank can hold. So, for me to find out if I'm in over my head, I basically just have to gamble my Raven on every unfamiliar mission. Sounds like fun. BTW I've never fitted WCS as I haven't tried level 4 missions yet, but from what research I have done the level 4 rats tend to scram you. From experience I know there are missions where the first few minutes basically decides whether you are going to be OK or whether you need to get the hell outta dodge. I guess I will fit stabs, go in and kill the scramblers, go back and take the stabs off and finish the mission.

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Imode Only time I've died during a mission is because I went afk after I hit warp at an acceleration gate. I admit to having lost 2 Ishtars to lvl4 mission npcs -- both due to overconfidence, carelessness and suddenly getting webbed, scrambled and toasted. It happens... but in reaction to something like that, you don't fit stabs, you fit a better tank and rethink your tactics. Stabs are useful in noncombat ships, and after this nerf they'll still stay useful there. Hooray, I say.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:25:00 - [82] Originally by: Beef Hardslab OK I'm sorry, allow me to reword it then... WCS nerf affects NEWBIE mission runners with low SP (like myself), who have not done every mission a thousand times, don't know what to expect and aren't sure if their tank can hold. So, for me to find out if I'm in over my head, I basically just have to gamble my Raven on every unfamiliar mission. Sounds like fun. http://www.eveinfo.com Being a noob has nothign to do with not using all the resources you have at your finger tips. Thats just being dumb. By the time you get to level 4's, or doing missions in a raven, you really shouldnt be a noob anymore. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:28:00 - [83] Let's get one thing straight. I don't fit a WCS because of NPCs. They tackle me, I kill them, that's how it works. For that period of time when they are tackling me I am easy meat for a Player Pirate in 0.4, and that's the risk that I ALREADY take going into a 0.4. The risk reward thing is already there. I fit a Warp Core Stab so that I can defend myself against PLAYER pirates, nothing else. I can't kill them because they will lock me down with ECM, and filling up midslots with ECM modules when running a mission is just NOT going to happen...plus my skills in it suck because I am a MISSION RUNNER not a PIRATE. The WCS in this case is not a guaranteed "get out of jail free" card. At most I will fit two or three if the area is really busy. Most times I just fit the one, which means if YOU, Mr Pirate, have done your job properly I am still dead...but it will stop the opportunist ganker in his solo HAC from locking me down. Note that in this case those modules replace my damage mods, which means I kill the NPCs slower, which means I spend more time in low sec for you to come gank me...for mission runners WCS were ALREADY BALANCED. And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you? Missions in low sec are now dead. Welcome to Motsu, population 600 and rising.... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:28:00 - [84] Originally by: Beef Hardslab WCS nerf affects NEWBIE mission runners with low SP (like myself), who have not done every mission a thousand times, don't know what to expect and aren't sure if their tank can hold. So, for me to find out if I'm in over my head, I basically just have to gamble my Raven on every unfamiliar mission. Sounds like fun. Except, you don't. There are numerous mission guides on these very forums, other pilots in-game you can ask, you can scout your missions out in a frigate first, or simply scan the deadspace at each gate for an idea of how many hostiles await you. Stop making lazy excuses for why you might need to fit a stab to run missions. You don't. End of discussion.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:29:00 - [85] Originally by: Buskerdu Am I to understand that if a group of players make a demand using such engaging and subjective arguments as "...WCS and combat don't go together..." or "...stabs should only be used by industrialists..." that these arguments are blindly accepted and point to something as being "wrong". Honestly, give the forum readers ONE objective argument for this nerf...one... Stabs are used for running. PvPers ought to have something that helps them in their fight, not something that helps them get out of it if things go sour. Stabs thus create a situation where PvP can be had with little risk. This wasn't a huge problem until RmR, when the new stacking penelty was introduced. With only 4 modules of the same type being useful, a lot of setups that used to have lots of damage mods in the lows now had nothing to put there, so they put in WCS for a lack of anything better.
sr blackout Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:30:00 - [86] this is perfect, and i used to fly vaga's but the point is that they are more for travel... as i always said there had to be a trade off between being safe and or well not safe besides a fitting req... they should reduce the fitting req and keep this targeting or even signature nerf, its perfect
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:31:00 - [87] Good ! Either fit to fight, or to run. Not both. Having Tuxford fixing the blasters is like having a blind man teaching you how to drive - just wont work.
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:32:00 - [88] How do you run a mission with a lock time of 30s on a tackling frig? How long does it take to target anything with just one stab? THATS killing the mission runners (even more). Ship lovers click here
Red Six Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:33:00 - [89] Originally by: Octavio Santillian I fit 2 not 5; I mean who fits 5? Like I said, I'll adapt. And again, I can afford to lose it, but can I afford to replace it; how about twice, that's the question. Well at least you are somewhat reasonable with your setup. Gangs I've been in have had way to many Vagabonds warp away with four points of scramble on them. It's not bad enough you move at an obscene speed close to 11Km/sec (best I've heard may not be the top end or it may be) Originally by: Eridu Fallen Upon closer inspection, that Caldari BS doesn't even look like it got hit with the ugly stick, it looks like it is the ugly stick.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:36:00 - [90] The only time I can ever recall using stabs was when RA kicked our corp out of Insmother. We had to move our assets out to friendly territory, and I moved my Domi with nothing but Cap Rechargers, Stabs and Nanos equipped. Oh, and maybe some un-named Nos's. Lets face it, I wasn't planning of fighting I've never fitted a Stab on a mission ship. Ever. Not even thought of it. And you know what, I was a newbie mission runner once, too! Not too long ago, either! I did once lose a Domi to a Scram NPC, but it was my own fault for not concentrating and noticing him scramming me a bit earlier. I fly in low-sec and 0.0 a lot. I've never fitted a stab on a single combat ship. I figure that if I'm out there, and I'm fully fitted with guns and tank, I might aswell fight to the end If I've ever fit stabs on a hauler, I can't remember (it seems a bit of a waste to me, when you could fit another expander instead). Might have though, as it is sensible in many circumstances. -----------------------------------------------



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