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WCS nerf is pretty heavy.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:56:00 - [1] 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:57:00 - [2] Good! :D ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc. E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:57:00 - [3] Owned! --- Praxiteles Inc. is Recruiting!
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:59:00 - [4] Ahaha.. Very nice! Seems fair to me tbh. <3
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:00:00 - [5] 16km is still too much if you ask me. What's a vagabond doing with stabs anyway? Running like a dog with its tail between the legs? Running is for industrials! Forsch Defender of the empire
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:00:00 - [6] Yes, one wcs to be allowed even on the warships. Smth like 1 wcs 25% penalty 2 wcs 75% 3 wcs 90% It will alow to fit situationally one wcs, but definitely destroy stabsetups.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:00:00 - [7] dampeners gonna be a pain for any vaga which will still use stabs Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. OH YES ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. PRAISE GOD. Because I said so...
O Thief The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. The best news I have heard all year

starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:09:00 - [11] plus it should more than double its lock time if u test it!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:11:00 - [12] Originally by: O Thief Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. The best news I have heard all year Woot i agree with BD's corp member. Something is wrong here.
Nir	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:11:00 - [13] 16KM seems pretty light actually. But its the long awaited stabnerf, guess I shouldn't complain.. :)
Ras Blumin 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:11:00 - [14] EXCELLENT!
Dragonring Omega	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:12:00 - [15] when are these changes going into effect?
xenodia Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. Woot This signature space for rent
Ricky Baby Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:14:00 - [17] about ******* time :D -------------------------------------
Alerce	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:14:00 - [18] Nice, so industrial ships can only outrun passively then, since warpstabs will make the other defensive tools, like ecm useless as well. Stupid if u ask me :(
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:15:00 - [19] Watch Local hull nanos price increase to hell till Kali gets out WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
Atomic Mayhem Umbrella Corporation.	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:15:00 - [20] :D

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 16:18:19 How much was the penalty to targeting range supposed to be? 50%? With max skills, you should have a targeting range of 62,5 km in a vagabond. If I cut that in half two times, I end up with 15,625 km which the game shows as 16 km probably. Vagabonds after Kali might have 2 stabs, 1 sensor booster and rely on the extra shield hp one shield extender is going to give. In the end, it loses about 1k shields with that setup (with sensor booster and 2 wcs). --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Octavio Santillian Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:19:00 - [22] I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. Now IÆll take the WCS nerf in stride, I do think there should be some kind of penalty. It will be interesting to see how the new inertial stabs work as a possible replacement. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:21:00 - [23] 1 stab + signal amplifier? lol. WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:22:00 - [24] Edited by: Rafein on 24/10/2006 16:22:36 ya, but it losing 1k HP, while everyone else is gaining HP, it's gonna pay for stabbing.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:25:00 - [25] WCS nerf does nothing since logging out still isn't an exploit...
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Eilie WCS nerf does nothing since logging out still isn't an exploit... Does nothing?!... You got to be kidding me. I personally meet 50013 times as many wcs *****s, compared to logging-out-nubs <3
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:38:00 - [27] Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Eilie WCS nerf does nothing since logging out still isn't an exploit... Does nothing?!... You got to be kidding me. I personally meet 50013 times as many wcs *****s, compared to logging-out-nubs But now they will all log out instead...
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc. E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Eilie Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Eilie WCS nerf does nothing since logging out still isn't an exploit... Does nothing?!... You got to be kidding me. I personally meet 50013 times as many wcs *****s, compared to logging-out-nubs But now they will all log out instead... I doubt it. Ive flown a few combat ships with WCS in the past (Ishtar etc) and never logged. I dont log because it's a matter of decency. You're playing a game. If you get caught, live with it. Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun. --- Praxiteles Inc. is Recruiting!
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:42:00 - [29] Is there any difference between pure t1 and named stabs in their penalties?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Octavio Santillian I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. A bit of a chicken & egg argument this. People were not stabbing a vaga because they were using faction mods & implants, people were using faction mods & implants because it was viaable to use stabbed setups with the vaga without loosing combat effeciency. In short: faction mods were a result of stabs (because if you played right you would basically never die with a vaga, so it pays to faction it up), not the other way around.

Serious Bob	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:46:00 - [31] Edited by: Serious Bob on 24/10/2006 16:46:26 Originally by: lofty29 ... you just ruin other people's fun. And that's why stabs are so fun. I expected more from you lofty.
Red Six Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Octavio Santillian I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. Now IÆll take the WCS nerf in stride, I do think there should be some kind of penalty. It will be interesting to see how the new inertial stabs work as a possible replacement. If you can't afford to fly it then don't. You know that with a Vagabond's speed, agility and quickness into warp 5 WCS on it was ridiculous but that is what the common fitting is. I personally like the sound of this WCS nerf. Originally by: Eridu Fallen Upon closer inspection, that Caldari BS doesn't even look like it got hit with the ugly stick, it looks like it is the ugly stick.
Mallakk	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:05:00 - [33] 16km ? its still too much. WCS are for transport or travelling people, those who think they are omfgbbqpvproxor should have 1km optimal with their 2 wcs...
Deadzone Caldari Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:41:00 - [34] I dont use WCS nor do I fly a VAga...but I think that maybe WCS should carry a 25-30% penalty on them instead of nearly 50%. 50% does seem a bit too much. DZ Vice-Admiral Military Division Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories
Gierling Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:42:00 - [35] So anyone think that BE is gonna try and crash the forums over this like they did when damps were accidently nerfed?
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:44:00 - [36] Originally by: Gierling So anyone think that BE is gonna try and crash the forums over this like they did when damps were accidently nerfed? Question is, does anyone care? I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
DARKKK	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:46:00 - [37] I think BE will have some quite serious issues. I don't know what will happen to damps, but javelin torps are getting big fat nerf, ecm as well and stabs also. Basicly they will have to revisit setups... and i shall eagerly await to copy :)
Octavio Santillian	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Octavio Santillian I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. A bit of a chicken & egg argument this. People were not stabbing a vaga because they were using faction mods & implants, people were using faction mods & implants because it was viaable to use stabbed setups with the vaga without loosing combat effeciency. In short: faction mods were a result of stabs (because if you played right you would basically never die with a vaga, so it pays to faction it up), not the other way around. Perhaps, but the fact is I still have all these faction mods. I guess I 'could' sell the stuff (not the implants), but that's not likely. Really, the Vaga is only okish without all the faction gear and implants. Given that, and the fact that very few people could sustain many losses at 250 mil for the ship and a lot more for all the faction gear, itÆs going to hurt losing WCS on this ship. I'm sure some of you are saying...damn right! I understand that. But true to form, the Vaga is an oddball kind of ship, and it is one of the few combat ships I can honestly say that stabs have a place on. I know that the nerf is happening, and Vagas will be tamed. It's all good. I'm just saying stabs on a vaga were a little different than stabs on a sniper. A sniper generally has time to get out if aligned and at speed, it has more drones, more tank, and maybe even things like a medium NOS or multispec to defend itself. A vaga, on the other hand, is all about heroic strikes against superior odds and is always in the thick of tacklers. One heavy NOS and all that speed and all that ISK doesnÆt do you a lot of good, not to mention rapiers . ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:12:00 - [39] well, it does screw with their lock on times as well. 2 stabs dropped it's scan resolution to 81, which is slightly longer to lock onto targets than a Raven.
Octavio Santillian	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:14:00 - [40] Originally by: Red Six Originally by: Octavio Santillian I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. Now IÆll take the WCS nerf in stride, I do think there should be some kind of penalty. It will be interesting to see how the new inertial stabs work as a possible replacement. If you can't afford to fly it then don't. You know that with a Vagabond's speed, agility and quickness into warp 5 WCS on it was ridiculous but that is what the common fitting is. I personally like the sound of this WCS nerf. I fit 2 not 5; I mean who fits 5? Like I said, I'll adapt. And again, I can afford to lose it, but can I afford to replace it; how about twice, that's the question. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö

Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:15:00 - [41] and really, this is only bout the stab change. Vaga will still be a good ship, and with speed rigs, better than ever before. It's just the stabs are getting nerfed, and that was the example listed.
Octavio Santillian	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:23:00 - [42] Originally by: Rafein and really, this is only bout the stab change. Vaga will still be a good ship, and with speed rigs, better than ever before. It's just the stabs are getting nerfed, and that was the example listed. Agreed, for the most part. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:25:00 - [43] Originally by: lofty29 "matter of decency." "Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun." Dude, you saying all that just made me rofl irl :) Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Octavio Santillian Originally by: Red Six Originally by: Octavio Santillian I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. Now IÆll take the WCS nerf in stride, I do think there should be some kind of penalty. It will be interesting to see how the new inertial stabs work as a possible replacement. If you can't afford to fly it then don't. You know that with a Vagabond's speed, agility and quickness into warp 5 WCS on it was ridiculous but that is what the common fitting is. I personally like the sound of this WCS nerf. I fit 2 not 5; I mean who fits 5? Like I said, I'll adapt. And again, I can afford to lose it, but can I afford to replace it; how about twice, that's the question. all this means is you'll be like every other hac pilot i can put stabs on my zealot but it gimps my setup which was not the case with the vega most hac are expensice, my zealot with mods is worth at least 500mill and im not including implants. so get used to it
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:34:00 - [45] My opinion, FWIW, is that the penalty should ONLY apply to the second stab and above...fitting ONE should be free. No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS...CCP have overreacted (not for the first time, we should be used to it by now). lofty29...logging out is ruining other people's fun? You didn't care about that when you were gang-ganking mission runners in hi sec space... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. If you're going to blow up someone, you should also face the fact that you may get blown up in return. If you want to fit 2 stabs and try to fight then you deserve to be gimped. Honestly, this isn't enough. It's obvious that CCP gimped stabs with groups like Burn Eden in mind and have completely overlooked the 2 stab vagabond setup. If you're a 2 stab vagabond pilot that can't figure out how to overcome a 16km lock range, then you deserve to die. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. Why?
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:44:00 - [48] about time WCS got nerfed good job ccp...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. Why? If you have to ask, you're beyond having it explained to you. Because I said so...
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:46:00 - [50] The way they have implemented this nerf is a stroke of pure genius. No serious PvP will now fit stabs, wheras haulers are uneffected. Excellent work.

Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Butter Dog The way they have implemented this nerf is a stroke of pure genius. No serious PvP will now fit stabs, wheras haulers are uneffected. haulers are affected. Do you know smth about ecm to terminate ceptor lock? Sometimes it helps.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:48:00 - [52] OMG takes my afk stabbed mining iteron forever to lock onto that veld roid! I can hear the whines now... ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:50:00 - [53] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. Why? If you have to ask, you're beyond having it explained to you. AFAIK, "Dead" Red Alliance did explain to you how to fight. So shut up.
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Butter Dog The way they have implemented this nerf is a stroke of pure genius. No serious PvP will now fit stabs, wheras haulers are uneffected. haulers are affected. Do you know smth about ecm to terminate ceptor lock? Sometimes it helps. "serious pvp"
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:51:00 - [55] Originally by: Zixxa AFAIK, "Dead" Red Alliance did explain to you how to fight. So shut up. Be silent, alt boy. Go sensor damp yourself
Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:57:00 - [56] I'm kinda new (and not a PVP'er yet), so I may be a bit off... but doesn't this make FOF missiles pimp for those that want to fight and stab?
Corey Grim FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:00:00 - [57] i fly vagabond sometimes and i love this WCS nerf can you believe it i have never used stabs in combat fitted ship and prolly never will. this just makes vagabond more uber (wich is kinda sad) as ppl realize that vagabond is working best when u use your lows for something else. My latest Video: Hysteria
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:01:00 - [58] Originally by: Beef Hardslab I'm kinda new (and not a PVP'er yet), so I may be a bit off... but doesn't this make FOF missiles pimp for those that want to fight and stab? Yeah, but FOF missiles are more dangerous than your enemy... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Beef Hardslab I'm kinda new (and not a PVP'er yet), so I may be a bit off... but doesn't this make FOF missiles pimp for those that want to fight and stab? Umm... I can see what you're getting at, but no. There's a few elements to PVP. First thing is making sure your target doesn't just run away. You need to use a warp scram for that. If you can't target, then no warp scram. Second, if you come at a target who has no intention of fighting you, then FoF missiles won't work. They're an odd, pidgeonholed beast. Once they're activated, they'll fire at the closest target that is agressing you. If the target does not agress you (read: tries to run instead of fight) then the missiles will not launch regardless if you have lock or not. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Corey Grim i fly vagabond sometimes and i love this WCS nerf can you believe it i have never used stabs in combat fitted ship and prolly never will. this just makes vagabond more uber (wich is kinda sad) as ppl realize that vagabond is working best when u use your lows for something else. LOL, shhh. Don't say anything, otherwise the next wcs nerf will include removing 2 lo slots from Vagabonds. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes

Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Beef Hardslab on 24/10/2006 19:07:18 Ahh cool.. never used them even though I trained them. Good point about the lack of scram too, didn't think of that. I'm just trying to think of loopholes ahead of time. Edit: What about drones? Do they get affected by the new WCS negatives?
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:06:00 - [62] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. What's the problem ? I don't anything wrong with that. _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:12:00 - [63] Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. If you're going to blow up someone, you should also face the fact that you may get blown up in return. Great. Fine. Dandy. But what if I just want to run my mission in 0.4 space? I don't want to blow up the pirates that will try to gank me there, I just want to run away. But with this nerf I won't even be able to fit ONE warp core stab without making running a level 4 mission impossible. It's probably a fair nerf for PVP, but it's hellish unfair to mission runners. And yes, I know, PVP > PVE, yadda yadda yadda. So take all mission running out of the game and see how many subscribers you have left. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Snodgey2004 Mega Modal M0nkeys	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:15:00 - [64] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. I praise this , I dislike the fact people fit stabs on combat ships in the first place the heavier the penalty the better as far as I'm concerned . I've had a few Vagas in my life-time and none has ever seen a stab near it . What I like is the fact there are people like me that don't fit stabs to any ship so it doesn't change much , so the people you do see running around in Vagas pwning people will continue to do so , it also makes their job alot easier because you can't stab up yourself either
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:16:00 - [65] Since I am fairly new to this game I am a bit shocked about how this change has come to pass and can only wonder if it is the way things have always worked. Am I to understand that if a group of players make a demand using such engaging and subjective arguments as "...WCS and combat don't go together..." or "...stabs should only be used by industrialists..." that these arguments are blindly accepted and point to something as being "wrong". Honestly, give the forum readers ONE objective argument for this nerf...one... As it stands the nerf is far too extreme in my relatively newb opinion. But in this case the *subjective* opinion of one does not carry much weight. So I'll just ST*U now. By the way, personally this nerf is almost ignorable since I very rarely fit WCS on any ship including haulers. I'm just speaking out on principal. I prefer to take the risk and maximize hold capacity. Cargo Expanders FTW (or are they up for a nerf soon???)...better be quiet now... Buskerdu
Valhalior Caldari Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:18:00 - [66] Any info on WCS Tech II nerf that was won recently? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:19:00 - [67] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. LoL, thats fine with me. The Vaga fights at 16k.
Alerce	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:22:00 - [68] Got to agree about the mission runners. NOT fitting any warpstab is just gambling on certain dead, well its not even gambling. If you just do certain missions some several times, you know there will be a time, u get blown up. Because certain missions have way too many npc, that can scramble and lots of them have npcs that have +2 scramble strength as well. Sorry, but i do hope these missions WILL be changed, with this forced warpstab story. Most mission runners dont care at all about all the carebear pvp-ers and the so-called real pvp-ers that still fit warpstabs anyway.....
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Imode Originally by: Grey Area No one is going effectively sensor damp themselves in return for fitting a WCS... Which is what CCP wants. Combat and WCS shouldn't go hand in hand. If you're going to blow up someone, you should also face the fact that you may get blown up in return. Great. Fine. Dandy. But what if I just want to run my mission in 0.4 space? I don't want to blow up the pirates that will try to gank me there, I just want to run away. But with this nerf I won't even be able to fit ONE warp core stab without making running a level 4 mission impossible. It's probably a fair nerf for PVP, but it's hellish unfair to mission runners. And yes, I know, PVP > PVE, yadda yadda yadda. So take all mission running out of the game and see how many subscribers you have left. Risk versus reward. If you want to make the extra 20-50% more isk missions in low-sec offer you should have to face the dangers of low-sec. It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions, it adds danger to low-sec systems that was supposed to be there all along, and up until this phase of every ship fitting stabs, It was. Besides, fit a stab on your raven, It will still allow you to mission, Just slower. What this does, is remove the bonus of going to low-sec for people who dont take any risk going into low-sec. Eve is a risk vs reward game, not a "I want easy mode" game. If anyone wants an easy mode game, stay in empire, or go play wow. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:59:00 - [70] Quote: What this does, is remove the bonus of going to low-sec for people who dont take any risk going into low-sec. Eve is a risk vs reward game, not a "I want easy mode" game. If anyone wants an easy mode game, stay in empire, or go play wow. More subjectivity. Couldn't the use of Warp Jammers be considered "easy mode"? The risk component for anyone traveling into low-sec exists every time you leave high-sec space. There is no "bonus" for anyone without accepting a certain amount of risk every time they go below 0.5. The risk comes in many forms; being forced to retreat (yes possibly through the use of stabs) means you do not accomplish your objectives period. That is a risk you take whether you are a combat pilot, mission-runner and not able to complete a mission in-time or at all (a bit far-fetched perhaps but...) or a trader and are unable to get your product to market. Give me a break with all of your subjective "if I can't lock you down and kill you under my rules then I won't be happy..." nonsense. Why WCS were not simply reverted back to being active modules is beyond me. Put them on the same footing as jammers. If anything, the nerf should have impacted your ability to engage warp; how we got to a combat related nerf is beyond me. Still waiting for an objective/fact-based reason for this nerf?

Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:06:00 - [72] If anything, this nerf doesnt go far enough. I feel a more balanced change would be this; The first stab you fit starts a self-destruct sequence on your ship, of 800 seconds. Each stab you fit after this halves the time your ship has to live. Hurry
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:08:00 - [73] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. Funny, that. I don't recall ever fitting wcs's for missions (of any level). Hint: you're supposed to kill the npcs, not run away. It sounds like this only nerfs people who suck at missions. Not a tragedy, as such.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:08:00 - [74] But it will still be able to operate at 16km, and scramble, and stay out of web range. Not harsh enough IMO. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. uhm... and I've ran missions untill today without even using a single stab. gotta love light drones to dispose of those pesky npc tacklers. yes lvl4 missions. yes in low-sec. more specifically in a .3 until today I only lost 1 ship to pirates while missioning (waves to frankinator), and that was because I wasn't paying attention to local. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
0Virtu0 Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. fapfapfapfapfapfap.
Aquila Lightwielder N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:15:00 - [77] more more nerf them more ;) Teh NAGA ShopÖ
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:17:00 - [78] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. Well maybe if you tried to fit something useful in the lo slots you wouldnt suck as much? Only time I've died during a mission is because I went afk after I hit warp at an acceleration gate. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:19:00 - [79] Originally by: Buskerdu Quote: What this does, is remove the bonus of going to low-sec for people who dont take any risk going into low-sec. Eve is a risk vs reward game, not a "I want easy mode" game. If anyone wants an easy mode game, stay in empire, or go play wow. More subjectivity. Couldn't the use of Warp Jammers be considered "easy mode"? Its harder to get into 7.5k and engage someone who doesnt want to be engaged then its is to use a stab. On top of that, stabs dont require cap while running, and on most ships mid slot's are more valuable then low slots. Quote: The risk component for anyone traveling into low-sec exists every time you leave high-sec space. There is no "bonus" for anyone without accepting a certain amount of risk every time they go below 0.5. The risk comes in many forms; being forced to retreat (yes possibly through the use of stabs) means you do not accomplish your objectives period. That is a risk you take whether you are a combat pilot, mission-runner and not able to complete a mission in-time or at all (a bit far-fetched perhaps but...) or a trader and are unable to get your product to market. If you can safefly fly around in low-sec, without being intelligent (aka fitting stabs instead of scanning gates, getting intel, and planning your route) it removes the "risk". The bonus of flying into low-sec is there, missions are worth more, trade goods sell better cross regions, better minerals, so saying there is no bonus with low-sec versus high-sec is retarded. You can do everything in high-sec you can in low-sec, and just not make as much isk. Thats the bonus. Quote: Give me a break with all of your subjective "if I can't lock you down and kill you under my rules then I won't be happy..." nonsense. Why WCS were not simply reverted back to being active modules is beyond me. Put them on the same footing as jammers. If anything, the nerf should have impacted your ability to engage warp; how we got to a combat related nerf is beyond me. Its not about locking people down and killing them under anyones rules, its about balance. Every other module in the game has some sort of cost, use cost, stacking penalty or harder fitting reqs then other modules. Stabs dont. This is balance, it doesnt get much more objective then that. Make it active, a mid slot, and double cap usage as 20K scram scram (as you would need two 20K scrams to stop it from warping) if you wanted to make an exact opposite module. Its not a combat nerf, its a sensor nerf (which yes may nerf combat). Think of it in terms of how a ship is setup, if you are diverting more power to your warp drive, what sub-system would you want that power to come from? Engines are needed to escape, weapons are needed to fight back, which means energy would be moved from the sensors to the warp drive. But yea, its still not a combat nerf, its a sensor nerf. Quote: Still waiting for an objective/fact-based reason for this nerf? Eh, you seemed to biased and angry to see anyones points but your own. o/ Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. /wave I run leve 4's in a raven, in low-sec. If your smart, you dont need stabs, as I have yet to fit one. You just take the scramming frigs out with drones or long range. It may take some of the mind-numbing boredom out of the first few moments on a level 4, but after that, dont worry, you cna go back to not paying attention! __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:21:00 - [80] Edited by: Beef Hardslab on 24/10/2006 20:24:01 OK I'm sorry, allow me to reword it then... WCS nerf affects NEWBIE mission runners with low SP (like myself), who have not done every mission a thousand times, don't know what to expect and aren't sure if their tank can hold. So, for me to find out if I'm in over my head, I basically just have to gamble my Raven on every unfamiliar mission. Sounds like fun. BTW I've never fitted WCS as I haven't tried level 4 missions yet, but from what research I have done the level 4 rats tend to scram you. From experience I know there are missions where the first few minutes basically decides whether you are going to be OK or whether you need to get the hell outta dodge. I guess I will fit stabs, go in and kill the scramblers, go back and take the stabs off and finish the mission.

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Imode Only time I've died during a mission is because I went afk after I hit warp at an acceleration gate. I admit to having lost 2 Ishtars to lvl4 mission npcs -- both due to overconfidence, carelessness and suddenly getting webbed, scrambled and toasted. It happens... but in reaction to something like that, you don't fit stabs, you fit a better tank and rethink your tactics. Stabs are useful in noncombat ships, and after this nerf they'll still stay useful there. Hooray, I say.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:25:00 - [82] Originally by: Beef Hardslab OK I'm sorry, allow me to reword it then... WCS nerf affects NEWBIE mission runners with low SP (like myself), who have not done every mission a thousand times, don't know what to expect and aren't sure if their tank can hold. So, for me to find out if I'm in over my head, I basically just have to gamble my Raven on every unfamiliar mission. Sounds like fun. http://www.eveinfo.com Being a noob has nothign to do with not using all the resources you have at your finger tips. Thats just being dumb. By the time you get to level 4's, or doing missions in a raven, you really shouldnt be a noob anymore. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:28:00 - [83] Let's get one thing straight. I don't fit a WCS because of NPCs. They tackle me, I kill them, that's how it works. For that period of time when they are tackling me I am easy meat for a Player Pirate in 0.4, and that's the risk that I ALREADY take going into a 0.4. The risk reward thing is already there. I fit a Warp Core Stab so that I can defend myself against PLAYER pirates, nothing else. I can't kill them because they will lock me down with ECM, and filling up midslots with ECM modules when running a mission is just NOT going to happen...plus my skills in it suck because I am a MISSION RUNNER not a PIRATE. The WCS in this case is not a guaranteed "get out of jail free" card. At most I will fit two or three if the area is really busy. Most times I just fit the one, which means if YOU, Mr Pirate, have done your job properly I am still dead...but it will stop the opportunist ganker in his solo HAC from locking me down. Note that in this case those modules replace my damage mods, which means I kill the NPCs slower, which means I spend more time in low sec for you to come gank me...for mission runners WCS were ALREADY BALANCED. And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you? Missions in low sec are now dead. Welcome to Motsu, population 600 and rising.... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:28:00 - [84] Originally by: Beef Hardslab WCS nerf affects NEWBIE mission runners with low SP (like myself), who have not done every mission a thousand times, don't know what to expect and aren't sure if their tank can hold. So, for me to find out if I'm in over my head, I basically just have to gamble my Raven on every unfamiliar mission. Sounds like fun. Except, you don't. There are numerous mission guides on these very forums, other pilots in-game you can ask, you can scout your missions out in a frigate first, or simply scan the deadspace at each gate for an idea of how many hostiles await you. Stop making lazy excuses for why you might need to fit a stab to run missions. You don't. End of discussion.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:29:00 - [85] Originally by: Buskerdu Am I to understand that if a group of players make a demand using such engaging and subjective arguments as "...WCS and combat don't go together..." or "...stabs should only be used by industrialists..." that these arguments are blindly accepted and point to something as being "wrong". Honestly, give the forum readers ONE objective argument for this nerf...one... Stabs are used for running. PvPers ought to have something that helps them in their fight, not something that helps them get out of it if things go sour. Stabs thus create a situation where PvP can be had with little risk. This wasn't a huge problem until RmR, when the new stacking penelty was introduced. With only 4 modules of the same type being useful, a lot of setups that used to have lots of damage mods in the lows now had nothing to put there, so they put in WCS for a lack of anything better.
sr blackout Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:30:00 - [86] this is perfect, and i used to fly vaga's but the point is that they are more for travel... as i always said there had to be a trade off between being safe and or well not safe besides a fitting req... they should reduce the fitting req and keep this targeting or even signature nerf, its perfect
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:31:00 - [87] Good ! Either fit to fight, or to run. Not both. Having Tuxford fixing the blasters is like having a blind man teaching you how to drive - just wont work.
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:32:00 - [88] How do you run a mission with a lock time of 30s on a tackling frig? How long does it take to target anything with just one stab? THATS killing the mission runners (even more). Ship lovers click here
Red Six Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:33:00 - [89] Originally by: Octavio Santillian I fit 2 not 5; I mean who fits 5? Like I said, I'll adapt. And again, I can afford to lose it, but can I afford to replace it; how about twice, that's the question. Well at least you are somewhat reasonable with your setup. Gangs I've been in have had way to many Vagabonds warp away with four points of scramble on them. It's not bad enough you move at an obscene speed close to 11Km/sec (best I've heard may not be the top end or it may be) Originally by: Eridu Fallen Upon closer inspection, that Caldari BS doesn't even look like it got hit with the ugly stick, it looks like it is the ugly stick.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:36:00 - [90] The only time I can ever recall using stabs was when RA kicked our corp out of Insmother. We had to move our assets out to friendly territory, and I moved my Domi with nothing but Cap Rechargers, Stabs and Nanos equipped. Oh, and maybe some un-named Nos's. Lets face it, I wasn't planning of fighting I've never fitted a Stab on a mission ship. Ever. Not even thought of it. And you know what, I was a newbie mission runner once, too! Not too long ago, either! I did once lose a Domi to a Scram NPC, but it was my own fault for not concentrating and noticing him scramming me a bit earlier. I fly in low-sec and 0.0 a lot. I've never fitted a stab on a single combat ship. I figure that if I'm out there, and I'm fully fitted with guns and tank, I might aswell fight to the end If I've ever fit stabs on a hauler, I can't remember (it seems a bit of a waste to me, when you could fit another expander instead). Might have though, as it is sensible in many circumstances. -----------------------------------------------

Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:36:00 - [91] Originally by: Grey Area Let's get one thing straight. I don't fit a WCS because of NPCs. They tackle me, I kill them, that's how it works. For that period of time when they are tackling me I am easy meat for a Player Pirate in 0.4, and that's the risk that I ALREADY take going into a 0.4. The risk reward thing is already there. I fit a Warp Core Stab so that I can defend myself against PLAYER pirates, nothing else. I can't kill them because they will lock me down with ECM, and filling up midslots with ECM modules when running a mission is just NOT going to happen...plus my skills in it suck because I am a MISSION RUNNER not a PIRATE. The WCS in this case is not a guaranteed "get out of jail free" card. At most I will fit two or three if the area is really busy. Most times I just fit the one, which means if YOU, Mr Pirate, have done your job properly I am still dead...but it will stop the opportunist ganker in his solo HAC from locking me down. Note that in this case those modules replace my damage mods, which means I kill the NPCs slower, which means I spend more time in low sec for you to come gank me...for mission runners WCS were ALREADY BALANCED. And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you? Missions in low sec are now dead. Welcome to Motsu, population 600 and rising.... If your too afraid of loosing your ship in low-sec stay in high-sec. Run the high-sec missions, make the ****ty isk, its your choice. There are plenty of people who run missions in low-sec, hell I have a few 3 week olds in my corp that are running missions in low sec, so for you to complain you cant just means you dont want to. Cant != Wont. By the way, I am not a pirate, I am an anti-pirate with most of my skills in industry and spaceship command, to fly the ships I used to make. I still live and run missions in low-sec. Again, Cant != Wont. Welcome to Eve. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:39:00 - [92] Hey Popsikle. I appreciate your response to my last post; actually agree with some of your points. Just for the benefit of anyone interested in some objective debate what do you think of these points: Quote: Its harder to get into 7.5k and engage someone who doesnt want to be engaged then its is to use a stab. On top of that, stabs dont require cap while running, and on most ships mid slot's are more valuable then low slots.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:40:00 - [93] Originally by: Grey Area I fit a Warp Core Stab so that I can defend myself against PLAYER pirates, nothing else. I can't kill them because they will lock me down with ECM, and filling up midslots with ECM modules when running a mission is just NOT going to happen...plus my skills in it suck because I am a MISSION RUNNER not a PIRATE. ... And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you? Oh boy. Most of the missions I've ever run have been in lowsec, currently I do them in 0.2 / 0.1 when I feel like doing missions -- usually this means "when we aren't at war" Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Complex runners may have pirate problems, belt rat hunters may have pirate problems, but mission runners? Nah. If you're feeling paranoid, use gate-to-gate and gate-to-station instas. There is no way a pirate will catch you unless you seriously screw up. In short: if you can't run missions without stabs, you suck. Learn not to suck.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:44:00 - [94] Originally by: Buskerdu Hey Popsikle. I appreciate your response to my last post; actually agree with some of your points. Just for the benefit of anyone interested in some objective debate what do you think of these points: Quote: Its harder to get into 7.5k and engage someone who doesnt want to be engaged then its is to use a stab. On top of that, stabs dont require cap while running, and on most ships mid slot's are more valuable then low slots. Im confused, you just quoted me, and told me to respond to myself! __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:51:00 - [95] CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant. Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want. The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:52:00 - [96] Originally by: Popsikle http://www.eveinfo.com Being a noob has nothign to do with not using all the resources you have at your finger tips. Thats just being dumb. By the time you get to level 4's, or doing missions in a raven, you really shouldnt be a noob anymore. I use eveinfo all the time. The site is great, and I love it, but it isn't foolproof. I also search the mission name, here and in google, and read what other people have to say about it. Trust me, I try to prepare for each mission as well as I am able. I'm not saying that I can't run level 4s, and I'm not ****ing about the WCS nerf - IMO it needed a nerf. I'm just saying that it does* indeed affect mission runners. Maybe not you, or the other few people here with snide remarks, but it will have an effect. I've been in the game less than two months, and have just over 1 mil SP - noob material, I'm sure. I've got multiple level 4 agents available, and I'm in a Raven. I haven't run any yet because to be honest I'm not sure I'm ready.
D'Arkon Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:54:00 - [97] We stab users wouldn't be whining and fitting 100 stabs on each ship, causing CCP to nerf them, if it weren't for psychos using warp scramblers!!! Don't nerf stabs, nerf scramblers and then you won't have to worry about so many stabbed out ships.
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:01:00 - [98] Edited by: Buskerdu on 24/10/2006 21:02:01 Hey Pop. My bad... like I said I hit "Enter" in the heat-of-the-moment My edited response is back a few posts...
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:13:00 - [99] Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant. Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want. The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem. Agreed It will also help the lame pvpeers who use them to be more lame in combat as a reflect to their need to get the hell out after a quick gank , tbh i think the penalty should be increased more "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:42:00 - [100] TBH CCP hit the bullseye. Perceftly. unbelievable yet true. Quite possibly the most important, and well done nerf, EVER

Aslann Gallente Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:59:00 - [101] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Oh boy. Most of the missions I've ever run have been in lowsec, currently I do them in 0.2 / 0.1 when I feel like doing missions -- usually this means "when we aren't at war" Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Complex runners may have pirate problems, belt rat hunters may have pirate problems, but mission runners? Nah. If you're feeling paranoid, use gate-to-gate and gate-to-station instas. There is no way a pirate will catch you unless you seriously screw up. In short: if you can't run missions without stabs, you suck. Learn not to suck. How will insta's help you when you jump into a system and a pirate is on the gate. You'll be dead before your slowass BS is aligned and warped (Generally missions setups will not be able to beat a ganker, specially when its more then 1).
Azrael Bierce Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:03:00 - [102] Originally by: Gabriel Karade But it will still be able to operate at 16km, and scramble, and stay out of web range. Not harsh enough IMO. While this is true, if they have to dodge outside of 16km to avoid you, they lose their target. It suddenly gives them a VERY small margin of error to avoid webs, and if they lose their target, you can warp.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:05:00 - [103] Originally by: Octavio Santillian Perhaps, but the fact is I still have all these faction mods. I guess I 'could' sell the stuff (not the implants), but that's not likely. Really, the Vaga is only okish without all the faction gear and implants. But how is it with rigs? OH! RIGS!!!! I wonder if there will be a speed rig that could replace some of your Gist MWD and stuff? -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:09:00 - [104] Originally by: D'Arkon Skye We stab users wouldn't be whining and fitting 100 stabs on each ship, causing CCP to nerf them, if it weren't for psychos using warp scramblers!!! Don't nerf stabs, nerf scramblers and then you won't have to worry about so many stabbed out ships. If only! I would love to have my 40cpu back so I can fit something else! As long as you promise not to warp away when I jam you with a multispec II ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
hUssmann Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:12:00 - [105] Praise the lord and pass the ammunition. Best nerf ever. Phoenix Lonestar > Server lag was non-existant pre-Dragon
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:14:00 - [106] Originally by: Butter Dog The way they have implemented this nerf is a stroke of pure genius. No serious PvP will now fit stabs, wheras haulers are uneffected. Excellent work. I tend to agree. With regards to the WCS nerf, Veto have released the following statement : Quote: ololOloLOLOloLoloLOLolOLoLoLOlOLoLOLolOL YYYEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESSSSS!111 Pelvic ThrustPelvic ThrustPelvic Thrust rubnipple Thank you for your attention. WWW.VETO-CORP.COM
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:15:00 - [107] This is the most spot-on change from CCP...ever Big thumbs up to CCP and a Tech2 tissue for all the stablovers out there
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:19:00 - [108] Hmmmm that kinda renders tractorbeams useless in combination with stabs on a hauler for ratting purposes... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Patch86 I've never fitted a Stab on a mission ship. Ever. Not even thought of it. And you know what, I was a newbie mission runner once, too! Not too long ago, either! I did once lose a Domi to a Scram NPC, but it was my own fault for not concentrating and noticing him scramming me a bit earlier. I fly in low-sec and 0.0 a lot. I've never fitted a stab on a single combat ship. I figure that if I'm out there, and I'm fully fitted with guns and tank, I might aswell fight to the end If I've ever fit stabs on a hauler, I can't remember (it seems a bit of a waste to me, when you could fit another expander instead). Might have though, as it is sensible in many circumstances. Basically what I wanted to say. I cant recall ever fitting a stab to a hauler myself, but then I have a prorator for lowsec work so thats +2 inbuilt stabs already. IIRC, the only ship currently fitted w. stabs in my hangar(s) is my "im carrying faction/officer gear to highsec for sale and im paranoid" camp-running spare covert-ops fitted w. MWD and not even a gatling pulse laser. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Da'Neth Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:22:00 - [110] this is all well and good I am glad we will beabul to lock down snipers but I whant proof dev post or screen shot from sisi --- join the DA click above

Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:25:00 - [111] Hmm. Is that 16KM with max targetting skill, no sensor booster and 2 halcyon WCS? Or is that just normal tech 1 stabbies?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:39:00 - [112] Originally by: Popsikle If your too afraid of loosing your ship in low-sec stay in high-sec. Run the high-sec missions, make the **ty isk, its your choice. There are plenty of people who run missions in low-sec, hell I have a few 3 week olds in my corp that are running missions in low sec, so for you to complain you cant just means you dont want to. Cant != Wont. By the way, I am not a pirate, I am an anti-pirate with most of my skills in industry and spaceship command, to fly the ships I used to make. I still live and run missions in low-sec. Again, Cant != Wont. Welcome to Eve. All well and good Mr I'm not a Pirate Popsikle. But my point is...running missions in low sec just got HARDER. Will the rewards get BIGGER? No. So how come Risk vs Reward only works in one direction? Originally by:** Alex Harumichi Oh boy. Most of the missions I've ever run have been in lowsec, currently I do them in 0.2 / 0.1 when I feel like doing missions -- usually this means "when we aren't at war" Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Complex runners may have pirate problems, belt rat hunters may have pirate problems, but mission runners? Nah. If you're feeling paranoid, use gate-to-gate and gate-to-station instas. There is no way a pirate will catch you unless you seriously screw up. In short: if you can't run missions without stabs, you suck. Learn not to suck. OK, since we don't have a base in low sec, we work on the edge of empire space. Run a few missions in a 0.4 chokepoint and see how much problem you have with pirates. And if you HAVEN'T had problems with pirates until now, then you've been very lucky, or you have dumb pirates. I was scanned with a CoV Ops ship and had a gank party warp in to my mission (yes, it was a long mission) and lock me down and ransom me. Cost me 150 million, which doesn't come back QUICK from mission rewards these days. I do apologise however for assuming that you had not much mission running experience. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
TheDevilsJury principle of motion R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:49:00 - [113] pity about the nerf... makes the "I-Win" setup I've got in my signature kinda useless :( ^^^^ Certified Anti-CHON Fit ^^^^
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:51:00 - [114] Originally by: DrAtomic Hmmmm that kinda renders tractorbeams useless in combination with stabs on a hauler for ratting purposes... AFAIK, you can offline your stabs when you're in the mission itself, and online them again when you're ready to travel again. Obviously that would do a PvPer who uses stabs no good, but it doesn't hurt industrials or PvEers that bad, no? -----------------------------------------------
Horza Otho Minmatar Silver Star Federation	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:59:00 - [115] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: lofty29 "matter of decency." "Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun." Dude, you saying all that just made me rofl irl :) quite a show of selective morals eh? --- Eris Discordia is miiiiiine
Viktoria Maher	Posted - 2006.10.25 02:54:00 - [116] Originally by: Popsikle http://www.eveinfo.com Being a noob has nothign to do with not using all the resources you have at your finger tips. Thats just being dumb. By the time you get to level 4's, or doing missions in a raven, you really shouldnt be a noob anymore. Eveinfo would be useful were it actually up-to-date.
Viktoria Maher	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:00:00 - [117] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Lucky you. How do you overcome station-camping pirates, or gank-squads on the other side of gates?
Nikla Uthaan Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:12:00 - [118] Originally by: Patch86 AFAIK, you can offline your stabs when you're in the mission itself, and online them again when you're ready to travel again. Obviously that would do a PvPer who uses stabs no good, but it doesn't hurt industrials or PvEers that bad, no? Yes, it does, remember it's 95% cap level before you can online something. Stabs are useful if you suddenly get full room aggro thanks to a 'bug' (used loosely coz i dont see it as a bug, but i'd be argued to the ground very quickly). When you're tanking like all hell, 95% cap is not something you have on hand. Avoiding pvp, the WCS nerfs are fine. For pvp, wtf are you doing with stabs anyway? shouldnt you be maximising your gank/tank for taking out others? IMO WCS nerf is basically just another unthought wave of the nerf bat in the direction of mission runenrs. ----------------- One word,, emo,,, The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:14:00 - [119] Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant. Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want. The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem. if you think stabs don't have a penalty then i guess autocannons and mwd's don't either. it's called fitting requirements. 1pg, 30 cpu, 1 low-slot. if you want to lock me down use up one of your precious mids to fit another scram. 4 pts of scram must be countered by using 4 pg, 120 cpu, and 4 low-slots. to get 4 pts of scram you need to use up 2 pg, 60 cpu, 2 mids, and 2 cap/sec. that seems balanced to me. half the fitting requirements, 2 mids instead of 2 lows, and 2 cap/sec instead of using up another 2 lows. i'd trade take 2 cap/sec drain over using 2 low-slots any day of the week. i honestly don't see a debate here. there isn't much room for one --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:19:00 - [120] now supposedly "abusing" the power of stabs to pick a fight and then run when things go south has nothing to do with balance. it's like nerfing missles because ravens use them to pop slowboaters at gates. don't nerf a mod because some people find very powerful ways to use it that are in no way unbalenced. suprise that next stababond with 3 scrams. don't nerf wcs. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec

Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:21:00 - [121] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. 2 stabs on a hulk brought a mining barge from 22 Km lock range to 6.5 KM. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:22:00 - [122] Owned --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Siegis Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:31:00 - [123] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Popsikle It doesnt nerf your ability to run missions Yeah, it does. When the mission rats can have their way with you as far as warp scrambling goes, unless you fit WCS and take the associated negatives... seems like a nerf to "ability to run missions" to me. Funny, that. I don't recall ever fitting wcs's for missions (of any level). Hint: you're supposed to kill the npcs, not run away. It sounds like this only nerfs people who suck at missions. Not a tragedy, as such. Sometimes you have to run when they get you way down... Better to warp away and repair then lose your ship.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:38:00 - [124] think they will adjust NPC's warp scramming in light of this? i dont have strong feelings either way on this discussion. only way this effects me is the only ship i fly w/ a wcs (vaga) will just get another nano or damage mod instead
Secretary	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:39:00 - [125] Edited by: Secretary on 25/10/2006 03:40:36 Quote: I've been in the game less than two months, and have just over 1 mil SP - noob material, I'm sure. I've got multiple level 4 agents available, and I'm in a Raven. I haven't run any yet because to be honest I'm not sure I'm ready. You're not ready and WCS wouldn't save you. Making those pesky stabbabonds come in nice and close to lock me is a fine idea. My poor innocent ratting BS just wouldn't be able to cope with them.... When i were a nub you got scrambled in lvl 3 missions. All the frigates in 0.0 belts would scramble you. I died a lot... Unlikely that mission scramblers will get nerfed any more than they have already
Sakaki Karazawa Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.25 04:07:00 - [126] This nerf doesn't even affect me, since I don't use WCS! =D All it means is I'll be able to fight knowing that my enemy can't run away and go "HAHA U SUX >:V" anymore. =D <Pallantre> 'should i join snigg or veto'? <Pallantre> and i thought.. thats like arguing whether you should join bloods or crips
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2006.10.25 04:51:00 - [127] Originally by: Zixxa It will alow to fit situationally one wcs, but definitely destroy stabsetups. Good, Low sec will now be completely empty of peeps... except for the hordes of pirates looking for that occasional ibis...
Lansfear Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.10.25 05:46:00 - [128] Dear CCP, From all of us here at CIC we would like to just say one thing about the WCS nerf. GOD ******* BLESS YOU ALL! Ehem. That is all.
Micheal Cassio	Posted - 2006.10.25 05:58:00 - [129] thank you ccp
Afonso Henriques Minmatar Low Grade Ore The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:39:00 - [130] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant. Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want. The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem. if you think stabs don't have a penalty then i guess autocannons and mwd's don't either. it's called fitting requirements. 1pg, 30 cpu, 1 low-slot. if you want to lock me down use up one of your precious mids to fit another scram. 4 pts of scram must be countered by using 4 pg, 120 cpu, and 4 low-slots. to get 4 pts of scram you need to use up 2 pg, 60 cpu, 2 mids, and 2 cap/sec. that seems balanced to me. half the fitting requirements, 2 mids instead of 2 lows, and 2 cap/sec instead of using up another 2 lows. i'd trade take 2 cap/sec drain over using 2 low-slots any day of the week. i honestly don't see a debate here. there isn't much room for one Either you are the alt of one of the lamer corps being nerfed with this or you havent a clue about eve (probably both). Sacrificing a low for a wcs or 3, while reducing your ability to go 1:1 with a properly fitted similiar ship (which they run from ofc), is hardly a balance. Scams require precision to use (range/cap) wcs require lazyness. It's a long over due change and one of the best things CCP has done in a long time. next up, instajumps!

Afonso Henriques Minmatar Low Grade Ore The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:40:00 - [131] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. 2 stabs on a hulk brought a mining barge from 22 Km lock range to 6.5 KM. use the cheaper coetor then ffs. If you drop 450M on a minign ship, only a dold would fit a wcs over minign laser upgrades.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:55:00 - [132] Originally by: Afonso Henriques Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. 2 stabs on a hulk brought a mining barge from 22 Km lock range to 6.5 KM. use the cheaper coetor then ffs. If you drop 450M on a minign ship, only a dold would fit a wcs over minign laser upgrades. Great idea! CCP, do you know that now hulk is obsolete ship?
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:57:00 - [133] OMFG ! Stabs nerfed I'm allmost tempted to come back and play the game ! Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
Cethrie Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:05:00 - [134] Excellent compromise. To the mission runners. I understand what you are talking about, being in low sec and being scanned down by pirates. I understand having to travel around in low sec where missions are run. Pirates gravitate to these systems. But if you are careful, its almost impossible to be caught. Yes I agree, the reward isn't as high as the risk. Particularly in Placid. Here is two tactics to solve your problem, its very rare you need to do the mission in low sec that has no station in the system. So fit warp core stabs to travel to the system, then change your setup back to tank. When in the mission, ALWAYS move from the start point. If you are 30+km's away from the warp in point, they wont catch you before you leave. That and they wont enter until most if not all of the rats are dead (Should you escape and the rats target them they wont escape). So you should be well over 40kms from the warp in point. They will need to have fast ships to stop you escaping. Given you should always be aligned to a SS or station, you should always make it out. Hopefully they make the scanner easier to use so u can see when they are coming in, to compensate for the buff probes are supposed to recieve in Kali.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:06:00 - [135] the change will work great on players that do not want to get involved in PvP and give disadvantages to those who do WANT to risk their ship in PvP. You could argue about non-PvPers getting away that easy, since haulers are also somehow involved in 0.0-alliancewarfare, but it¦s ok I guess. I appreciate that ships get nerfed, which had the possibility of attacking others and still being on the safe side.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:25:00 - [136] Originally by: Grey Area And if you HAVEN'T had problems with pirates until now, then you've been very lucky, or you have dumb pirates. I was scanned with a CoV Ops ship and had a gank party warp in to my mission (yes, it was a long mission) and lock me down and ransom me. Cost me 150 million, which doesn't come back QUICK from mission rewards these days. I do apologise however for assuming that you had not much mission running experience. Ok, fair enough; maybe I just have been lucky -- I've never had a pirate warp in on me on a mission, though (as you found out) it is technically possible. And yeah, a well-organized pirate group like that, or one at a gate, can ruin your day. I still claim that pirates aren't a major risk when running missions, as long as you're careful, but I suppose that depends a lot on the region. Apologies here, too, for being a bit rude. In any case, fitting stabs on a combat mission isn't smart anymore, they gimp your setup too much. So look on the bright side: you can put lots of other fun stuff in those low slots, which both improves your mission performance and gives you some small chance vs. solo or unexperienced pirates.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:31:00 - [137] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/10/2006 07:34:55 Originally by: Viktoria Maher Originally by: Alex Harumichi Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Lucky you. How do you overcome station-camping pirates, or gank-squads on the other side of gates? Station campers: instas. Gank-squads on other side of gate: haven't run into any serious ones yet, just 150km+ snipers -- which I can survive long enough to warp out. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've run a lot of lowsec missions -- so I guess it's region-dependent or something. That, and I never use battleships to run missions, so my warp-out time is a lot faster than a bs. It helps. Maybe consider fitting a cloak on your mission bs? Yes, it takes a highslot and needs cpu, but on some ships you have a semi-useless high slot anyway, and loss of stabs frees up a nice bit of cpu. If you jump through a gate and see a gank squad, just do the move-in-random-direction-and-cloak trick. Unless they are paying attention closely, you have a very good chance of just slowly walking away quite safe.
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:50:00 - [138] EXELENT Chainge. Make stabs use tiny winy amount of energy as well.
Plan Neun Caldari Ganja Unlimited	Posted - 2006.10.25 08:07:00 - [139] It doesnt seem like the Dev's in CCP think things through sometimes at all, what the heck is good with this. For miner's and haulers in low sec belts this is hell to put it mildy. This decision will increase empire traffic in high sec. I actually hoped that you in CCP worked for the opposite.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.25 08:25:00 - [140] Originally by: Plan Neun It doesnt seem like the Dev's in CCP think things through sometimes at all, what the heck is good with this. For miner's and haulers in low sec belts this is hell to put it mildy. Que? This won't have much effect at all on lowsec mining and hauling ops (and yes, we do those on a regular basis). In lowsec you want to mine in a battleship anyway. Taking a few bits longer to lock that asteroid isn't going to have any effect, and your target range will stay quite long enough. If you're worried, fit a sensor booster II. If you insist on using a barge, well, those have a medslot too. Sensor booster is your friend. As for haulers, those stabs will have zero effect. So it takes forever to lock something with your hauler? So?

Radeberger Caldari Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:15:00 - [141] Edited by: Radeberger on 25/10/2006 09:15:35 Hmm i like this new change, now i just want to know if using a sensor damp against said vaga will apply the stacking penalty with the wcs's . If that ain't the case then i'll be fitting one on my alt's huginn I've been told i look like Oveur, however i disagree it is he that looks like me
Jurskjeld Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:44:00 - [142] Well... will the penalty exist as soon as I FIT the stuff, or as soon as it is ONLINE? Because if the latter is the case, mission-running won't suffer as much. -- Amarr scum be pushing gas, Caldari dogs are kissing their ***. Gallente and Minmatar together stand forever as the holy band.
Viscount Hood British Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:50:00 - [143] Edited by: Viscount Hood on 25/10/2006 09:51:51 You could still fit WCS but have them turned off. Fit 2 but have only 1 activated. Your pvp option is to stay and fight, or turn on the WCS, loose your cap and run. and on the reverse side, fit two WCS for travelling in lo sec areas. You want to pvp so you turn them off. ------------------------------------------------
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:52:00 - [144] Originally by: Viscount Hood Edited by: Viscount Hood on 25/10/2006 09:51:51 You could still fit WCS but have them turned off. Fit 2 but have only 1 activated. Your pvp option is to stay and fight, or turn on the WCS, loose your cap and run. and on the reverse side, fit two WCS for travelling in lo sec areas. You want to pvp so you turn them off. You wont be able to switch them on - it takes 95% cap which excluding a monir miracle you don't have. For the reasonably inexperienced player lowsec missioning and ratting are now things of the past. As another poster has already said expect lowsec to get even emptier. Far from the being best nerf CCP have ever made this might well be a strong contestant for the lamest.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:20:00 - [145] Overall I like the change - but I do agree that something should be done for mission runners. Mind you the 50% boost to HP might be that something :) I fit 2 stabs to my raven, you know why? Because all it takes is for you to release drones at the wrong time, or shoot something in slightly the wrong order, or breathe in the wrong direction, and an entire level 4 stage aggros on you. I have good skills and setup, but even so I need to warp out more often than not in that situation - and I know for a fact that I have warped out with scramblers on me more times than I can count. Hardly ever these days but a lot when I started running level 4s. Reducing the number of scramblers in missions, or spreading out the spawns so its harder to aggro the lot, something along those lines would definately help. But maybe the 50% extra HP is enough as it gives you those few extra seconds to kill the tacklers. Zarch AlDain
Demonus Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:06:00 - [146] *waits for ginger magician to post in here. --------------------
Commander Nikolas Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:02:00 - [147] The changes will be a step in the right direction for WCS. Hopefully more penalties will be added.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:42:00 - [148] Originally by: Commander Nikolas The changes will be a step in the right direction for WCS. Hopefully more penalties will be added. Get back under your bridge, Troll. Or rather, back to your gatecamp. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:42:00 - [149] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Overall I like the change - but I do agree that something should be done for mission runners. Mind you the 50% boost to HP might be that something :) Not really...since the problem with the WCS is LOW SEC missions, it's pirates we worry about, not NPC's...and said pirates will ALSO get that HP boost. Even if they didn't...normally a mission runner doesn't get the luxury of firing back at a pirate. you get ECM'd to death and are slaughtered like a lamb. Originally by: Zarch AlDain I fit 2 stabs to my raven, you know why? Because all it takes is for you to release drones at the wrong time, or shoot something in slightly the wrong order, or breathe in the wrong direction, and an entire level 4 stage aggros on you. You know that. I know that. Whingy pirates neither know nor care. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:09:00 - [150] Edited by: Weirda on 26/10/2006 19:12:22 perhaps miners could request in kali forum that lock range be boost significantly on mining barge to compensate. it is pretty obvious from the change that they only intend it to affect combat setups (probably including mission runner). as for hauler, Weirda don't really understand what all these hauler need to lock onto anyways. battle badger and q ship don't need wcs... so that leaves what? EDIT: oh yeah - tractor beam... sorry. well no reason not to ask for boost to lock range and speed for those as well (though no need for anything other then bunch sensor booster in mid really - oodle of cpu on the industrial ship). it is good change IWHO, there are obviously thing like barge lock range and such that need to be addressed. Weirda doesn't do that, but the people who do should bring it up there (if not already). seriously though, just trying to be constructive. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks

Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:14:00 - [151] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. How far are the Autocannons effective? Mind control and tin hats
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:43:00 - [152] Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 26/10/2006 19:12:22 perhaps miners could request in kali forum that lock range be boost significantly on mining barge to compensate. it is pretty obvious from the change that they only intend it to affect combat setups (probably including mission runner). as for hauler, Weirda don't really understand what all these hauler need to lock onto anyways. battle badger and q ship don't need wcs... so that leaves what? EDIT: oh yeah - tractor beam... sorry. well no reason not to ask for boost to lock range and speed for those as well (though no need for anything other then bunch sensor booster in mid really - oodle of cpu on the industrial ship). it is good change IWHO, there are obviously thing like barge lock range and such that need to be addressed. Weirda doesn't do that, but the people who do should bring it up there (if not already). seriously though, just trying to be constructive.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:53:00 - [153] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant. Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want. The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem. if you think stabs don't have a penalty then i guess autocannons and mwd's don't either. it's called fitting requirements. 1pg, 30 cpu, 1 low-slot. if you want to lock me down use up one of your precious mids to fit another scram. 4 pts of scram must be countered by using 4 pg, 120 cpu, and 4 low-slots. to get 4 pts of scram you need to use up 2 pg, 60 cpu, 2 mids, and 2 cap/sec. that seems balanced to me. half the fitting requirements, 2 mids instead of 2 lows, and 2 cap/sec instead of using up another 2 lows. i'd trade take 2 cap/sec drain over using 2 low-slots any day of the week. i honestly don't see a debate here. there isn't much room for one those of you who want the wcs nerf please read this. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Sir Drake	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:59:00 - [154] Originally by: lofty29 "matter of decency." "Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun." Funniest thing if read for a long time on this forum. Get real mate its all about having fun yourself. Spoiling other people's fun is nothing you should care about. Back on topic: I just love that nerf! Either a fight or a flight setups but not both.
Buskerdu	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:14:00 - [155] Quote: Either a fight or a flight setups but not both. Any why would that be...because you say so? I've read every post on this thread with an open mind and still can't understand the way this nerf is being implemented. I do not use WCS extensively what-so-ever but am worried about how we got to this point and where the Dev's will go in the future. A more reasonable solution (to me...) would have been to: - Make WCS an active module with a cap use close to or greater than that of a Scrambling mod. - Maintain or slightly increase the CPU requirements of WCS. - Consider making WCS a mid-slot module...this would be a wash for some ships; some would probably prefer it as a mid-slot so likely not very helpful in terms of balancing. If an additional penalty is required how about linking it to the very heart of the issue...your ability to warp from a "disheartening" situation. To do this a penalty could be put on your acceleration therefore getting to warp-ready speed would take longer therefore increasing the risk. Heck you could even make this penalty stackable for those multiple WCS users out there. PvP and even mission runners could still use WCS but would have much more to think about before doing so. Wouldn't this have been balanced? As it stands now a very subjective "judgement" has been made against users of WCS and a very harsh penalty imposed. How about a "judgement" against gate-campers? Oh I forgot, they're too busy complaining about instas. To all the people applauding out there for the wrong reasons soon you'll have all the nerfs you could hope for making the game dull and boring for all. Kills will be mindless for even the most talentless PvPer's and maybe just maybe some of you will leave the game for greener pastures. Buskerdu
Antskyeeh The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:00:00 - [156] Fair and reasonable compromise imo, and that's all we could ask for in the absence of a perfect solution. Wish all nerfs/boosts were like this one. You hit the nail on the head this time CCP
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:09:00 - [157] Bad solution. Usual CCP's overnerf. The game battle is becoming trivial as Lineage. Just deal damage.
GPerson Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:55:00 - [158] I wonder if this wonderful nerf will convince Ginger Magician to leave the game. Oh lord, I hope so. See, I'm convinced that the server crashes are not caused by alliance blob fights, but from Ginger Magician trying to upload his ego to the EVE servers. No matter how good the servers are, they can't do the impossible.... ~~~~~~~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~~~~~~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting.
Beastiality	Posted - 2006.10.28 01:01:00 - [159] Originally by: Zixxa Bad solution. Usual CCP's overnerf. The game battle is becoming trivial as Lineage. Just deal damage. QFT What would actually make the game better is getting rid of instas. Will it ever happen though?
Malena Panic Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.28 01:53:00 - [160] Originally by: Buskerdu Kills will be mindless for even the most talentless PvPer's Oh GOD I hope so, then maybe I'll finally get a kill.

Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 02:32:00 - [161] Originally by: Buskerdu Kills will be mindless for even the most talentless PvPer's Evading combat in eve is so easy that the only mindless thing in a player death is the guy who didn't use any of the other 687 differant means of avoiding combat other then stabs. Which is why the "It nerfs my mission running set up" argument really holds no water for me. Not using the means to protect your self, is not a reason to indroduce (or in this case retain) more means of doing so because of your own inabilitys. As for the nerf, its a nice comprimise. We see WSC used for travel, and perhaps only travel.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.28 07:33:00 - [162] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Buskerdu Kills will be mindless for even the most talentless PvPer's Evading combat in eve is so easy that the only mindless thing in a player death is the guy who didn't use any of the other 687 differant means of avoiding combat other then stabs. You lie. You just want to execute your contract against weak oppnents with easy and without any risk. WCS is forcing you to think(add tacklers, use different setups, plan and intel). Without WCS killing noobs andaverage pllayers will be stupidly easy task. I wonder how long you will be happy killing sheeps, which even can not run?
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.10.28 07:54:00 - [163] Originally by: Zixxa You lie. You just want to execute your contract against weak oppnents with easy and without any risk. WCS is forcing you to think(add tacklers, use different setups, plan and intel). Without WCS killing noobs andaverage pllayers will be stupidly easy task. I wonder how long you will be happy killing sheeps, which even can not run? by your own admission, you are weak! now die and make room for those who are... erm... strong! Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution!
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.28 08:24:00 - [164] good wcs should not be used in pvp at all (though prehaps a hidden bonus can be given to mining ships and haulers to negate this nerf?) _____ RAM is recruiting
Darknar	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:08:00 - [165] the only time ive ever used stabs was wehn erm. actually ive never used stabs, 5 local nanofibers or inertia stabs have been better for travaling in lo sec. quicker alingnment to warp time = better than 5 stabs. and with the new buff to ineta stabs and the 3 second warp out for batteships :))
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:18:00 - [166] Originally by: Zixxa Bad solution. Usual CCP's overnerf. The game battle is becoming trivial as Lineage. Just deal damage. None of your posts in this thread have provided any tought. You just whine. BTW: pirates are not a problem in low sec mission running. All you need is a alt scout. Or perhaps Gray Area could try taking it on to the pirates. If they mess your bussiness you can in return mess theirs . get some buddies together and spank them. Might be the day in eve that you see the light.
Beastiality	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:11:00 - [167] Originally by: Glarion Garnier BTW: pirates are not a problem in low sec mission running. All you need is a alt scout. Thats hardly a solution. Game design shouldn't involve a user buying a second account. Although it does make good business sense. I'm not saying there aren't other ways to protect yourselves but this argument is stupid.
St Dragon Blood Association of Dragons	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:30:00 - [168] In my opinion this WCS change is a good one thing tho is it has yet to be used on the live server so definate opinions on how good it is is a bit premiture right now. However... from waht i can see of it for haulers and those who just want to travel and not fight this is a good change. For those who want to fight safe in the knoledge that they can get away if things get too hot for them this is not a good change. So from what i can see its a good change overall. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers	Posted - 2006.10.28 14:41:00 - [169] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant. Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want. The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem. if you think stabs don't have a penalty then i guess autocannons and mwd's don't either. it's called fitting requirements. 1pg, 30 cpu, 1 low-slot. if you want to lock me down use up one of your precious mids to fit another scram. 4 pts of scram must be countered by using 4 pg, 120 cpu, and 4 low-slots. to get 4 pts of scram you need to use up 2 pg, 60 cpu, 2 mids, and 2 cap/sec. that seems balanced to me. half the fitting requirements, 2 mids instead of 2 lows, and 2 cap/sec instead of using up another 2 lows. i'd trade take 2 cap/sec drain over using 2 low-slots any day of the week. i honestly don't see a debate here. there isn't much room for one those of you who want the wcs nerf please read this. Sorry but you really just don't understand the problem of WCS in PvP (read: Vagabond). ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 20:03:00 - [170] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Buskerdu Kills will be mindless for even the most talentless PvPer's Evading combat in eve is so easy that the only mindless thing in a player death is the guy who didn't use any of the other 687 differant means of avoiding combat other then stabs. Which is why the "It nerfs my mission running set up" argument really holds no water for me. Not using the means to protect your self, is not a reason to indroduce (or in this case retain) more means of doing so because of your own inabilitys. As for the nerf, its a nice comprimise. We see WSC used for travel, and perhaps only travel. Same argument over and over again. The pirates want the victims to have to do all the work JUST to stay alive. Here's a challenge for you...LIST those 687 other methods to avoid being killed. As far as I recall there's ONE you always fall back on..."watch local". It's almost like some mystical mantra you guys quote. But there's more to it than that isn't there? You never mention that bit. I don't know every pirate and mission ganker by name (though there are a few I curse regularly). so I have to watch local AND do a show info on ALL the names I don't recognise...all this while a combination of LAG and NPCs (the former more so than the later) tries to make a hole in my ship to let the air out. And if I DO find a pirate squad in local, what am I supposed to do THEN? Just go back to my agent and say "Sorry I can't do the mission, and yes, I know that's my 15th consecutive standing loss so you're never going to talk to me again."? Warp Core Stabs gave Mission runners an option to still do a mission whilst there was a pirate presence. This nerf removes that option ENTIRELY. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."

ashher	Posted - 2006.10.28 21:48:00 - [171] if u are in low sec then why do u expect to be able to travel and do missions without having the potential to be blown up just because u fit a few wcs _ IT IS LOW SEC NOT HIGH SEC - IT WARNS YOU BEFORE JUMPING IN your ship is set to kill things and not travel so why do you expect it to do both just because you are a low sec mission runner. If you are travelling then this change to wcs wont affect you, just because you have always been able to do both doesnt make it right adapt or die is the key not just whine
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.29 21:09:00 - [172] Originally by: St Dragon from waht i can see of it for haulers and those who just want to travel and not fight this is a good change. For those who want to fight safe in the knoledge that they can get away if things get too hot for them this is not a good change. So from what i can see its a good change overall. It is bad for haulers and miners. It is bad to investment protection(there are peolple do ot buying isks on ebat to finance losts) It is make game boring in some aspects. It is bad noobs.
Shimma	Posted - 2006.10.29 21:20:00 - [173] Originally by: ashher your ship is set to kill things and not travel so why do you expect it to do both just because you are a low sec mission runner. If you are travelling then this change to wcs wont affect you, just because you have always been able to do both doesnt make it right Why both things? For example, because you want to both things: deal damage and tank. And some people with brain want to have setup to kill some things and have additional insurance to run away if something is going wrong. It is natural, it is tactical and it is clever. Of course, good gang will kill man with brain, but alone Arazu do not. After WCS nerf Arazu will kill almost any solo warship. Few things, nevertheless, to be corrected certainly. Stabbabond is Number One.
Barmal	Posted - 2006.10.29 21:33:00 - [174] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. I agree this is too harsh so I propose an alternative. From now on: 1 Stab on a combat ship replaces all turrets with mining lazers. 2 Stabs on a combat ship should start auto destruct. 3 Stabs on a combat ship will make a fist come out of your screen and punch you in the face.
Kharakan Amarr GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.29 21:44:00 - [175] IBGM! (In before Ginger Magician. I do feel a certain amount of pity for him though.) Originally by: ParMizaN evry1ghasb a limiy... ...and ijust reached it ahaha... this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer [limegreen]I a
Hast Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 21:48:00 - [176] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Eilie Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Eilie WCS nerf does nothing since logging out still isn't an exploit... Does nothing?!... You got to be kidding me. I personally meet 50013 times as many wcs ***s, compared to logging-out-nubs But now they will all log out instead... I doubt it. Ive flown a few combat ships with WCS in the past (Ishtar etc) and never logged. I dont log because it's a matter of decency. You're playing a game. If you get caught, live with it. Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun. hihi comedy gold coming from you Originally by:** CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
Yaay Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:43:00 - [177] Edited by: Yaay on 30/10/2006 00:43:52 Originally by: Zixxa Bad solution. Usual CCP's overnerf. The game battle is becoming trivial as Lineage. Just deal damage. This is something I teach for PvP. If you don't know how to use your ship without stabs, then you become the trivial one. Why is it I never use stabs for combat but yet I can make people scream about it b/c they can't catch me. Don't need a Vaga, Don't need a lot of speed, just have to be aware of your surroundings. Learn tactics, don't rely on safety blankets.
Famine Aligher'ri V i L e	Posted - 2006.10.30 02:19:00 - [178] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Buskerdu Kills will be mindless for even the most talentless PvPer's Evading combat in eve is so easy that the only mindless thing in a player death is the guy who didn't use any of the other 687 differant means of avoiding combat other then stabs. Which is why the "It nerfs my mission running set up" argument really holds no water for me. Not using the means to protect your self, is not a reason to indroduce (or in this case retain) more means of doing so because of your own inabilitys. As for the nerf, its a nice comprimise. We see WSC used for travel, and perhaps only travel. Yeah, if you have alts. You can't see into the next system. Updated of course. On the WCS nerf, still fitting my Rapier with WCS's nothing will change. Not really a nerf to me. I still can use WCS's in combat fittings and still make it work. So I approve of the new WCS changes. People will still cry. :) Vile - Recruiting Pirates
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.30 03:34:00 - [179] BEST NERF EVER! ----
Xoduse Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.30 04:04:00 - [180] I dont say this much but I LOVE YOU CCP ---------------------

Karandor	Posted - 2006.10.30 04:12:00 - [181] This nerf is excellent. If you have problems running missions in a system because of rats HUNT THEM DOWN. Get your corp and alliance mates together and have some fun. Hedaleofarber is a huge mission running hub and there are VERY few rats there because they get hunted and killed very quickly. If you can do level 4 missions easily you can PvP too. I always thought mission running was for when you needed money or had nothing more interesting to do. People actually do it for FUN? I've had more than a few rats get away from me and my corpmates because of WCS, seeing it nerfed makes me happy in my pants. WCS aren't allowed on combat vessels in my corp. When people plan on running away they generally do just that. Plan on winning and it may happen more often. If you want to mine low sec or 0.0 get some freaking guards. You people have friends right? RIGHT?
Flaming sambuka Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:06:00 - [182] /me says his prayers. Ok so this nerf is great n dandy, it really is but in pvp if its 1v1 or even a small gang engagement your going to be under 20km, for short range under 7.5km. The nerf bat has hit hard and on ships like stabbed up ecm scorps i can appreciate the nerf but on most ships like the bthron, vaga, deimos, tempest, geddon and all the others its really not going to make that much of a difference since they are all close range ships, the only hit there going to take is the lock time which yeah is pretty good but its not really gonna hurt these ships that much at all if they want to kill there target (especially the vaga). You guys know what im getting at, just reason with me for once
Earthan Gallente GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:09:00 - [183] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. very good - A knight in space,war veteran,Grey Council military officer. Grey Council webpage
Damis Zohar Pirates of Destruction Union Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:47:00 - [184] Low sec missioners can still fit stabs and offline them while in mission right ?
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:41:00 - [185] Originally by: Damis Zohar Low sec missioners can still fit stabs and offline them while in mission right ? I think you are missing the point some people would make. Missioners sometimes use at least one WCS at times since Mission NPCs scramble them. On a level 4 even in hi-sec where the whole room aggros you at once and you get lagged for a few seconds, a WCS can mean the difference between a repairing a damaged battleship and shopping for a new one. Personally, I have never used a WCS except in Cosmos missions. It would be a shame to make a WCS completely useless to mission runners. for a single WCS, like most other mods that are stacking nerfed, there shouldn't be a penalty. 2 and more, yes. 4? Their ship should probably implode or something.
ZuN3 Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:43:00 - [186] Running missions is a risk, just as pvping is. Why shouldn't the nerf apply to them?
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:11:00 - [187] I think the nerf would have been better if stabs interfered with scrams....you can stab OR scram, but not both.....wouldnt effect mission runners, and would encourage team play... wouldnt change much out in 0.0 with dictors tho....just thought it was an idea that was more fun. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:21:00 - [188] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Commander Nikolas The changes will be a step in the right direction for WCS. Hopefully more penalties will be added. Get back under your bridge, Troll. Or rather, back to your gatecamp. .... a little bitter huh? <3
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:56:00 - [189] Originally by: Damis Zohar Low sec missioners can still fit stabs and offline them while in mission right ? Do you know the requirements for onlining them again? You have to have 95% cap. If you're running a mission, you don't HAVE 95% cap. So if the player pirate warps into my mission, are you suggesting I politely email him to ask if he'd mind AWFULLY waiting until my cap is back to 95% so I can online my WCS before attacking me? Best compromise is that the penalty applies to second stab and above. A pirate who fits the close rang scrambler will still catch mission runners, cos they won't fit TWO and incur the penalty, but "opportunist" pirates who only fitted a 1 point scrambler would not be so successful. And LWMaverick, yes, I AM bitter. I rarely fit WCS. I'm a deep empire mission runner at the moment, so no need for them. But I find the venom that is levelled at WCS to be so over the top that it is comic. There is no 50% penalty to ANYTHING to fit a scrambler. Why should there be one to fit a stab? Can you give me ONE single module that incurs a 50% penalty to anything? The closest I can think of is the MWD at 25% to cap...and even if that was 50% to cap, I would say it wasn't as severe as 50% to range. So...we have a module that is about to become the most crippling module in EVE, and some NUMPTY posts that it's not enough. I lost my temper. Sue me. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:23:00 - [190] Originally by: Grey Area So...we have a module that is about to become the most crippling module in EVE, and some NUMPTY posts that it's not enough. I lost my temper. Sue me. They were just ****ing and moaning that they couldn't gank everyone all the time without a little bit of skill. God forbid they actually have to chase somebody or use the scanner. I'm sure they will find something else to whine about after the WCS changes as well. "Nerf warp.. they keep warping away while I try to snipe them from outside of sentry range!"

Bloody Scince	Posted - 2006.11.02 07:28:00 - [191] Originally by: Earthan Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. very good /Signed
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.02 08:42:00 - [192] Edited by: LC Sulla on 02/11/2006 08:42:45 Does anyone think this may have the overall result of decreasing pvp activity (at least between quality ships). Up in Deklein we often get lone vagas with 2-3 x wcs raiding our assets. They are very hard to catch because of their speed but a well place bubble or interdictor can ruin their day (especially if there is a scorp present because they can usually obliterate tacklers very fast). When they are destroyed they are nearly always decked out in faction and/or t2 gear. It's a nice catch when we get them. With the nerf I am a little concerned these guys will be much more reluctant to come a play with their best kit mounted (or worse... not come and play at all). And I'm of the view that less quality pvp will be bad for Eve. I'm also of the view that if these guys have 800+ mill ISK mounted then a little wcs 'insurance' is not always a bad thing. Speaking as a player in 0.0 I've always felt that wcs were nerfed a little with the introduction of interdictors and bubbles (and a well placed little camp). Although for empire wars I am aware bubbles and interdictors cannot be used. Not sure how it will play out in the long run so I'm reserving my judgement.
Goewyn Ravenclaw Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.11.02 09:19:00 - [193] Originally by: Grey Area Let's get one thing straight. And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you? Missions in low sec are now dead. Welcome to Motsu, population 600 and rising.... Just because you can't run missions in low sec without a stab does not make impossible. I've lived in 0.1 for the last year and a half running missions. Apart from a momentary blip where I fitted a stab to my raven for a week or two I have never done it. I soon realised it's better to have a better tank than rely on essentially a wasted slot. Missions in Low sec are by no means dead, although all of the pilots incapable of thinking a way round this nerf and returning to high sec is good for me, less lagg!
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.02 17:49:00 - [194] Originally by: LC Sulla Edited by: LC Sulla on 02/11/2006 08:42:45 Does anyone think this may have the overall result of decreasing pvp activity (at least between quality ships). All these whiners do not think, because they have not enough brain. They screams: "Wow! No more stabbabond! Good!" Poor *tards do not understand that they will see no more vagabonds at all. At least in good faction/t2 fit. But they will see a lots of tier2 BC's and plain BS(cheap and 100% insurance).
Uggster Caldari Never'where	Posted - 2006.11.02 18:00:00 - [195] Edited by: Uggster on 02/11/2006 18:01:06 I just dont know what I'm going to do with my last two low slots in my Caracal now _______________________________________________ Sig removed as inappropriate- Tirg
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.02 19:19:00 - [196] Originally by: Goewyn Ravenclaw Just because you can't run missions in low sec without a stab does not make impossible. I've lived in 0.1 for the last year and a half running missions. Apart from a momentary blip where I fitted a stab to my raven for a week or two I have never done it. I soon realised it's better to have a better tank than rely on essentially a wasted slot. Missions in Low sec are by no means dead, although all of the pilots incapable of thinking a way round this nerf and returning to high sec is good for me, less lagg! I'm not a PVPer, and I'm not apologising for that. We are a small corp who does not have the resources to base ourselves in 0.1 where you are. I'm talking about a largely empire based corp, who OCCASIONALLY get given a mission that is just "over the border" into 0.4 space. 0.4 space is worse than 0.1 space because they are invariably choke points from empire to 0.0...this means it attracte both gatecampers AND mission runner hunters in much greater numbers than you will find in 0.1. It is THESE mission runners who are being unfairly penalised by this nerf. And I'm glad to see at least one poster has seen the light...no, you won't be seeing any warp core stabs any more...but I'm afraid you won't be seeing the ships that they used to be fitted to either. Those who whined that they couldn't catch people with warp core stabs were the unprofessional, unprepared and opportunist pirates. In general, the security of a WCS was false...as the poster pointed out, they COULD be cuaght. But because CCP have listened to the whiners who wanted an easy kill, all you professional, prepared and patient pirates I am sure are going to see a startling drop in your kill tallies...people will simply choose not to come. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Radiamantis	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:21:00 - [197] I must say I'm a bit splitted between the 2 point of view ! I haven"t read everything because it's quite long repetetive ! I hate chasing people in 0.0 who have more than 1 WCS !!!! Around where I play there are peoploe unwanted with 6WCS and a cloak on a raven, what's that about ! You need a gang of takkler to unable them to warp out and a gang to do damage !!! That is quite hard if you are a small corp I think wcs should be nefted if you use more than 1 ! Because if you only have 1 and are chasing in 0.0, 2 jammers can unable you to warp out ! Simple ! One wcs should be allowed but the use of more than one should be nerfed !
Vox'Dei	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:34:00 - [198] Originally by: ZuN3 Running missions is a risk, just as pvping is. Why shouldn't the nerf apply to them? pvping is not a risk. The only risk in pvp is that you will run into a gate camp or cloaked ship. No cloaked ship or gate camps and the only risk you take is the risk of lost time. Seriously rock paper scissors, you fight what you can beat and run from what you can't. W/o stabs theres no reason to attempt to fight something you dont think you can beat. Risk vs reward argument is the most broken one ive heard period. In the end the only thing this will do is increase the usability of ships that can succssfuly fit stabs because tacklers will no longer have a reason to fit more then 2 points of scramblage. It will also be a nerf to most npc fittings for people who don't want to fight. Adapation will happen though. Ill probably just bring ecm drones or t2 meds instead of fitting stabs, and fit those two extra bcus ive been meaning to.
zwerg Caldari mUfFiN fAcToRy Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:20:00 - [199] now tbh, i am a vagabond pilot, can proudly say that after half a year flying around everywhere with this beauty. and the stab nerv is really, really needed. But not THAT MUCH! i mean wtf? that shall be a nerf? Please Tux/CCp could you just remove it out of the game if you nerv it that much?! i lost so many kills because of stabs, and i still wonder how a vexor/thorax can stabbed ( 2x ) rat in syndicate, but im still against that massive nerf of the stabbies. maybe lower the nerf a bit would solve that problem, i will be complaining about it after that, ye true, but i still can see the newbs in eve who just wanna make money and are using stabs, and after kali cant. You see? Then we can go kill them! UHUUUUUUUUUU, what a thing! TBH youre just trashing the game! /zwerg Save the whales!!! Harpoon some Amarrians!!!!
Nemain Amarr Obsidian Asylum	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:10:00 - [200] Edited by: Nemain on 06/11/2006 15:12:23 Personally I have mixed fellings about this nerf. On the plus side it means setups like the stababond should be a thing of the past. Any setup that has to be countered by multiple inties or if you are lucky, 1 stilleto with 2xScrambler, web and mwd is definetly not right, so it is definetly a step in the right direction. On the downside I do feel it may be a bit harsh on PVE setups and when used as a genuine scramble counter on close range ships. Regardless of WCS complaints, 1 or 2 on a short range ship is a reasonable setup as close range ships are more at risk of getting scrambled, so being able to still be reasonably effective and be able to warp whenever it gets in blaster, ac range is a legitimate need. In my view there should be 2 varients, 1 as already proposed called somthing like Civilian WCS, and another called somthing like Combat WCS which you can only use 1 of, that reduces targetting range only by 50%, gives +2 strengh and has to be activated which uses a fair amount of cap per cycle. That way travel ships stay as is, but short range combat ships can still be given the chance to escape a single +2 scrambler without abuse. This means they are still going to be caught by a dedicated tackler as they should be, as opposed to every ship that fits a disruptor or scrambler. Seems alot more balanced to me like that and doesn't put all the apples in the basket of the scrambler, but doesn't mean scramble immune combat ships will be possible. And/Or a remote warp core strengh mod so other ships can help allies who are scrambled. Though make them high slot mods to prevent close knit gangs efectively making each other unable to be scrambled while still being combat effective. Essentially my view is WCS do have a place in and out of combat, just not in their current form which is ioen to abuse.

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:14:00 - [201] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 15:15:20 So who hasnt sold the Vaga yet? Naah, to be honest, its still a good ship. You just have to make 100% sure you dont get webbed. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:17:00 - [202] Originally by: Jim McGregor So who hasnt sold the Vaga yet? I haven't. Planning to buy a few more. Very excited over getting my alt up to skills for flying the ****ed things. However, I only ever used stabs on my Deimos, because that's the only ship that I know that is gimped enough to need stabs in order to bugger off so often. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:20:00 - [203] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 15:20:47 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Jim McGregor So who hasnt sold the Vaga yet? I haven't. Planning to buy a few more. Very excited over getting my alt up to skills for flying the ****ed things. However, I only ever used stabs on my Deimos, because that's the only ship that I know that is gimped enough to need stabs in order to bugger off so often. Yeah, they are fun, but you need those super expensive snakes to get the most from them. And personally, I feel they are too expensive to fly around comfortably. The hurricane will provide some much needed fun instead. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:24:00 - [204] Originally by: Vox'Dei pvping is not a risk. I read this, and promptly ignored the rest of your post. PvP is probably the riskiest thing you can do, because, now with these warp stab nerf, it's do or die, once you engage, you, or him is going down, and losing everything you've got with you, and possibly your pod. The nerf maked PvP the riskiest thing in EVE, bar none. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:08:00 - [205] Yay ccp! I can stop fitting 3 tackling points on all my ships, swearing as 8-wcs geddons warp off into the distance after ganking a mate, and trying to decide between slowing a vaga down and watching it warp out, or scrambling it and watching it mwd away. The best part has to be that it was my suggestion in the first place! Go sgb! Can I have a cookie?
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:14:00 - [206] Originally by: Octavio Santillian I think what people fail to realize, at least in the case of a vaga, is that a lot of vaga pilots have spent near a billion isk on the ship + faction mods + implants. ItÆs only natural that said pilots want to protect that kind of investment, because a vaga can be easily killed if pined down and everyone is gunning for them. Now IÆll take the WCS nerf in stride, I do think there should be some kind of penalty. It will be interesting to see how the new inertial stabs work as a possible replacement. don't fly what you can't afford to loose... About the nerf, ABOUT ******* TIME. Euro Empire/0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:16:00 - [207] WCS nerf affects my Cerberus more than Vagabonds. --------- Faction Warfare Begins Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Ione Hunt Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:22:00 - [208] Tbh, speed has saved my Vagabond more often than WCS. Good change imo ________________________________________________
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:24:00 - [209] Originally by: smallgreenblur Yay ccp! I can stop fitting 3 tackling points on all my ships, swearing as 8-wcs geddons warp off into the distance after ganking a mate, and trying to decide between slowing a vaga down and watching it warp out, or scrambling it and watching it mwd away. The best part has to be that it was my suggestion in the first place! Go sgb! Can I have a cookie? Try to use more tacklers. Or your corp cannot afford to use tacklers?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:28:00 - [210] Edited by: Zixxa on 06/11/2006 16:29:37 Originally by: Kaeten don't fly what you can't afford to loose... Truth. But sometimes you need to bring smth more expensive (at least to make your enemy happy when they will manage to kill you). Do you follow me? People will use cheap t1 ships. With cheap t1 equipment(or inexpensive t2). It is not good. We have to get balance between annoying stabbabonds and full removing of warp scramble protection fron any ships(except stupidiest haulers).

Rockbox Amarr Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:28:00 - [211] Edited by: Rockbox on 06/11/2006 16:29:53 Originally by: Estan Drake Originally by: Grey Area So...we have a module that is about to become the most crippling module in EVE, and some NUMPTY posts that it's not enough. I lost my temper. Sue me. They were just **ing and moaning that they couldn't gank everyone all the time without a little bit of skill. God forbid they actually have to chase somebody or use the scanner. I'm sure they will find something else to whine about after the WCS changes as well. "Nerf warp.. they keep warping away while I try to snipe them from outside of sentry range!" I think the nerf is just about right, however I find what you say insulting, as for over six months I have actively saught out targets both in low sec empire and 0.0, I have gate camped around 3 times in that six months I have been into hundreads if not more belts and busted missions (which take alot....ALOT of work to scan down) only to see around 75% of all my targets warp off. If some one goes through the trouble of finding pvp when others wont engage him at their will, they should at least be rewarded for their efforts alot more than they are at present. Visit us at VETO FORUMS!!1!**
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:36:00 - [212] Originally by: Rockbox I think the nerf is just about right, however I find what you say insulting, as for over six months I have actively saught out targets both in low sec empire and 0.0, I have gate camped around 3 times in that six months I have been into hundreads if not more belts and busted missions (which take alot....ALOT of work to scan down) only to see around 75% of all my targets warp off. If some one goes through the trouble of finding pvp when others wont engage him at their will, they should at least be rewarded for their efforts alot more than they are at present. Are you finding PvP??? It is quite easy. Go to the GW or to the Catch. Or where now RA is fighting? You will have PvP. And you will have ****ly good PvP. But you will be dead. Again and again. And full rack of unnerfed WCS hardly save your ass when Lotka or RA decides to pop you. You are finding easy targets to kill. Not PvP. And you are whining that noobs(only easy target for you) are fitting WCS. Be more honest. We need fix of WCS exploiting, not total nerf.
phillie blunt	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:43:00 - [213] best nerf ever! this nerf is needed... I was fighting a thorax with 5 wcs and a apoc with 6 wcs WTF is that... thanks ccp for this nerf
Rockbox Amarr Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:55:00 - [214] My idea of good pvp is not bobbing or being blobbed by some one Visit us at VETO FORUMS!!1!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.11.06 17:53:00 - [215] Originally by: Zixxa Or where now RA is fighting? Not really the best example now is it? N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Guillaume Yu Gallente Freelance Assassins Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:20:00 - [216] Originally by: Rafein 2 stabs on a vagabond brought a Vagabond from 60 Km lock range to 16 KM. WOOT! Now they will have to stand and fight. Yu
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:26:00 - [217] Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 06/11/2006 16:29:53 I think the nerf is just about right, however I find what you say insulting, as for over six months I have actively saught out targets both in low sec empire and 0.0, I have gate camped around 3 times in that six months I have been into hundreads if not more belts and busted missions (which take alot....ALOT of work to scan down) only to see around 75% of all my targets warp off. If some one goes through the trouble of finding pvp when others wont engage him at their will, they should at least be rewarded for their efforts alot more than they are at present. ^ \| This guy is why the WCS nerf is too much. When he says "pvp" what he means is "easy ganks against unsuspecting noobs". He doesn't actually want real fights he might lose, because he wouldn't have any trouble finding them.
DiseL	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:27:00 - [218] Edited by: DiseL on 07/11/2006 00:30:30 Unfortunatly most people think about this as how it will effect them directly and not the game in general. I agree with the nerf for PVP purposes but this will absolutely handcuff noobs in low sec and mission running. Most noobs must fit warp stabs when jumping into Level 3 or 4 missions for the first time while their skills are low. There is no way I could have finished numerous missions early on solo and I would have never survived some occasional low sec ratting against much higher skilled players. It is ridiculous that guys complain about other players running when they are obviously out shipped, out skilled, out fitted, and out experienced. It is going to be just about impossible to do anything offensive with stabs (unrelated to PVP), which will make the learning curve much more difficult for the younger players.
Famine Aligher'ri V i L e	Posted - 2006.11.07 03:58:00 - [219] Well instead of crying. I'll just say, that I fit WCS's because I can't get anyone solo. I can't get anyone off a gate. I can't get anyone off a station. Everyone holds hands thus I can't kill anyone because they got to much support. So I balance out there support with WCS's. Now if that's the wrong reasons to fit WCS's then sue me. I just want to make it somewhat balanced. Noone fights solo anymore and it's the only way you will get me to fight. I'm not suiciding for anyone. Double web works wonders, and so does knowing how to tackle. :) I hope CCP will release more solo ships that wont be monopolized by the major alliances so us solo guys can have decent ships to to umm gate to gate pvp without putting a 500million isk dent in our wallets. P.S PvP in EVE has died. It's all about the gate camps and bigger fleet blobs :p Vile - Recruiting Pirates
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:31:00 - [220] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Zixxa Or where now RA is fighting? Not really the best example now is it? Certainly not best, but good. Lotka/Veritas and RA are formidable enemies. And they can give some lessons of PvP to anybody "mommy-me-pvper-too" very-very quickly...

Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:35:00 - [221] Edited by: Kamazani on 07/11/2006 14:38:48 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Eilie Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Eilie WCS nerf does nothing since logging out still isn't an exploit... Does nothing?!... You got to be kidding me. I personally meet 50013 times as many wcs *****s, compared to logging-out-nubs But now they will all log out instead... I doubt it. Ive flown a few combat ships with WCS in the past (Ishtar etc) and never logged. I dont log because it's a matter of decency. You're playing a game. If you get caught, live with it. Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun. haha... the irony.
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:57:00 - [222] Blockade runners will be even better than before. Every dark cloud brings a rainbow somewhere. I now fit nanos rather than wcs on my Vaga, but will just leave the ship in the hanger more than before. Its one great feature -- going solo against stupid odds and then trying to get out -- will be mostly finished. Flying a Vaga is still the most fun you can have with your clothes on, though. I think folks miss the point in over-talking the WCS/Vaga issues. It's the BE Raven fit madness, and others like it, that needed addressing, imo. Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."


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