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Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.26 00:32:00 - [1] I see that the ECM's are nerfed, but the love is not yet on ECM ships. When can we expect the boost? ----------------------------------------
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.10.26 01:49:00 - [2] I haven't been able to get into the test server yet, but did they put in the low-slot ECM boosters yet?
Anasur	Posted - 2006.10.26 01:51:00 - [3] Yes, the low slot enhancers are in game, they add 20% to ECM strength if I recall.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 09:06:00 - [4] The info has not been updated yet but when I tested the rook it got 20% ecm strenght per level instead of the 10% listed so they have already been boosted. Still even with 20% per level and the new lowslot mod you won't be able to get the same jamming strenght as they used to.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:40:00 - [5] They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level. That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe? ----------------------------------------
Matyae	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Malicious Wraith maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe? Erm, a new ecm low-slot module was just created and you want to remove a lowslot from an ecm ship ?
Alexander Knott	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Malicious Wraith They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level. That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe? Rook would need a 40% bonus per level to have the same jam strength at Recon 5. The others you got dead on.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:58:00 - [8] Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/10/2006 00:58:53 Originally by: Alexander Knott Originally by: Malicious Wraith They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level. That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe? Rook would need a 40% bonus per level to have the same jam strength at Recon 5. The others you got dead on. My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%. Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed. 30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5. ----------------------------------------
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Malicious Wraith They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level. That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe? ECM boost mods are already in the game. Because I said so...
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then. The scorpion, having more low-slots, becomes the strongest jamming ship in the game as was not intended. The rook is supposed to be the strongest jammer in the game, and even With the equal boosts making jamming strength equal to last jamming, and all low-slots spent on jamming increase, and with the ECM strength increase rig, it is still not as powerful as the scorpion. Either way, this was only supposed to jam ships that could tank while using ECM, the rook is not one of them unless it sacrifices lots of jam power in the form of mid slots. Then its running a half-arsed jamming/tanking mode. ----------------------------------------

Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then. That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then. That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs. Thats gimping it compared to everything else, you can upgrade most anything with rigs. Leave jamming out just because someone feels like it? How about we leave blasters out of rig damage bonuses, they dont need any more damage increase then they already have! Get my point? ----------------------------------------
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then. That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs. Thats gimping it compared to everything else, you can upgrade most anything with rigs. Leave jamming out just because someone feels like it? How about we leave blasters out of rig damage bonuses, they dont need any more damage increase then they already have! Get my point? The low slot ecm boost mods will be plenty to increase jamming strength. Yes you lose low slots. That's intended. Any more questions? Because I said so...
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then. That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs. Thats gimping it compared to everything else, you can upgrade most anything with rigs. Leave jamming out just because someone feels like it? How about we leave blasters out of rig damage bonuses, they dont need any more damage increase then they already have! Get my point? No, I don't get your point. ECM ships are generally gimped in everything except ECM anyway.
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Risien Drogonne No, I don't get your point. ECM ships are generally gimped in everything except ECM anyway. my heart bleeds for you that you can only jam 8 cepters constantly in a scorp while fitting 4 cruise launchers and 2 heavy nosf. what a crap ship noobs so your rook that could consta jam 7hacs can now only jam them with 75% effect. cry me a river, make it a bg river too
Amarr knight LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Malicious Wraith The scorpion, having more low-slots, becomes the strongest jamming ship in the game as was not intended. The rook is supposed to be the strongest jammer in the game. Says WHO? Scorp with its tanking ablity and 8 meds has always been the better jammer. I agree rook should be close or equal to it but your claims are totally ridicoulous.
Gankor	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Amarr knight Originally by: Malicious Wraith The scorpion, having more low-slots, becomes the strongest jamming ship in the game as was not intended. The rook is supposed to be the strongest jammer in the game. Says WHO? It's not a claim, it's in the game description for the Rook. Quote: Name: Rook Hull: Blackbird Role: Combat Recon Ship Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds. It's not the most effective anymore, time to tank up the scorp with those new ECM mods and use racial jammers; the Rook is offically dead. Unless they change the numbers.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Gankor It's not a claim, it's in the game description for the Rook. Bwahaha. If you believe the things that the game descriptions tell you, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Cheap. Ship descriptions generally have only a fleeting resemblance to game reality.
Gankor	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Gankor It's not a claim, it's in the game description for the Rook. Bwahaha. If you believe the things that the game descriptions tell you, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Cheap. Ship descriptions generally have only a fleeting resemblance to game reality. It would be nice if your reply contributed to this thread in some way. To the other posters... Explain to me how a tech 1 Battleship should outperform a tech 2 Recon Cruiser in terms of ECM. If the developers want the Scorpion to become the better ECM boat, then fair enough - time to adapt. However, I am struggling to see the what role the Rook will perform in the future other than drone magnet and instapop paperweight.
Alexander Knott	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:51:00 - [20] Originally by: starship enginer Originally by: Risien Drogonne No, I don't get your point. ECM ships are generally gimped in everything except ECM anyway. my heart bleeds for you that you can only jam 8 cepters constantly in a scorp while fitting 4 cruise launchers and 2 heavy nosf. what a crap ship noobs so your rook that could consta jam 7hacs can now only jam them with 75% effect. cry me a river, make it a bg river too People have really unrealistic ideas of what is possible with ECM. Under the new system, a rook without ECM mods will have the same jammer effectiveness as a Blackbird does today. A Blackbird with good skills can jam 2 cruisers more or less constantly. Add a couple of damage mods and I have no trouble seeing the new Rook perma-jamming a couple of battleships. Of course this Rook also has absolutely no tank so the first cycle it fails it's going to vaporize. It's just not going to be worthwhile to fly that ship.

cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:27:00 - [21] This is just frickking great. Why dont you just remove them from game so people wouldnt train for it? I train for rook after stealth bombers and they are nerfed back to oblivion. ______________________________________________________________
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:30:00 - [22] On the topic of Scorpion versus Rook discussion, Scorpion has 8 mid slots, 8 possible jammers. Rook has 7 mid slots, 7 possible jammers. Scorpion has a 5% boost per level to ECM, for a maximum for 25% at level 5. Rook has a 10% boost per level to ecm, for a maximum for 50% at level 5. Each rook jammer is 25% more powerful then each scorpion jammer. 7x25% = 175% percent. Rook has "Effectively" 1 and 3/4's more jammers then the scorpion. Making the "Effective Jamming Strength" of the rook 9.75 in relative comparison to the scorpions 8. Thank you, good day ^.- Keep in mind that the rook is in no way overpowered, it lacks low slots for an effective tank, and has small amounts of damage. Insta-popped by any decent bs-size damage, and any group of t2 drones can effectively bring it out of the battle. ----------------------------------------
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:49:00 - [23] Originally by: Malicious Wraith My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%. Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed. 30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5. Your math IS screwy. Take 100 as the original value. Now the new value is 50% of the old one, right? So the new value is 50%. 100x(100%+5x10%=150%)= 100x1.5=150. 50x(100%+5x30%=250%)=50x2.5=125. When you halve the original value the boost per percentage is also halved. So if the original value is halved it needs a 200% total bonus to match the original 50% bonus, thus 40% per level.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:02:00 - [24] Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/10/2006 20:04:52 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: Malicious Wraith My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%. Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed. 30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5. Your math IS screwy. Take 100 as the original value. Now the new value is 50% of the old one, right? So the new value is 50%. 100x(100%+5x10%=150%)= 100x1.5=150. 50x(100%+5x30%=250%)=50x2.5=125. When you halve the original value the boost per percentage is also halved. So if the original value is halved it needs a 200% total bonus to match the original 50% bonus, thus 40% per level. Aha, yes. My mistake. doh Hehe ----------------------------------------
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:00:00 - [25] I'm pretty sure this isn't a scorp vs. rook contest, but rather a thread about why the ecm dedicated ship are getting nerfed, or if the devs just forgot about the boost tux promised us. All I see is that they introduced an extra low slot module which will nerf ecm since every scorp and rook pilot will have to fit such a module to even compare to the old stats. It's like nerfing nos, and introducing a low slot module to every ship like the curse or pilgrim to get in line with the same stats it had before. All I can say is that this seems like yet another caldari nerf
Alexander Knott	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:09:00 - [26] Edited by: Alexander Knott on 27/10/2006 21:10:35 Actually, what's more troubling is that apparently the Rook got bumped to 20% strength/level, which is nowhere near good enough. With that bonus and maxed skills, a Rook will be about as good at jamming as a Blackbird is today. I'd actually feel better about the ECM ships if they had not received their new bonuses yet. At least that way I could tell myself "well, maybe they just haven't gotten to it yet." Instead it seems like they have gotten to it, but the new bonus just isn't nearly good enough. Edit: I should have said the bonus for the Rook is in effect, but isn't in the description. Of course, I haven't been able to get on Sisi to see if this is actually true or just forum hearsay.
miss sixtty Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Alexander Knott Edited by: Alexander Knott on 27/10/2006 21:10:35 Actually, what's more troubling is that apparently the Rook got bumped to 20% strength/level, which is nowhere near good enough. With that bonus and maxed skills, a Rook will be about as good at jamming as a Blackbird is today. I'd actually feel better about the ECM ships if they had not received their new bonuses yet. At least that way I could tell myself "well, maybe they just haven't gotten to it yet." Instead it seems like they have gotten to it, but the new bonus just isn't nearly good enough. Edit: I should have said the bonus for the Rook is in effect, but isn't in the description. Of course, I haven't been able to get on Sisi to see if this is actually true or just forum hearsay. You ask why ECM ships are being nerfed? Well, its pretty simply: becouse only Caldary have ECM ships. That pretty unfair to other races, no? Even in current "nerfed" SiSi state caldary ewar ships are much better (TOO MUCH better) than other races ships. I mean, gallente ewar ships have a wooping 5% pre lvl increase in sensor dampeners, and matari 5% for TP, lol. As such, tracking disruptors, dampeners and TP can be used by any race effectivly, and ECM only by select caldary ships. Thats where the root of the problem. Personally, i would like to LOWER racial bonus on caldary ewar ships to same 5% but increase the importance of low-slot ECM-aiding modules. That would allow any ship to take ECM role if needed, at expence of damage and tanking.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/10/2006 21:52:28 Originally by: miss sixtty Originally by: Alexander Knott Edited by: Alexander Knott on 27/10/2006 21:10:35 Actually, what's more troubling is that apparently the Rook got bumped to 20% strength/level, which is nowhere near good enough. With that bonus and maxed skills, a Rook will be about as good at jamming as a Blackbird is today. I'd actually feel better about the ECM ships if they had not received their new bonuses yet. At least that way I could tell myself "well, maybe they just haven't gotten to it yet." Instead it seems like they have gotten to it, but the new bonus just isn't nearly good enough. Edit: I should have said the bonus for the Rook is in effect, but isn't in the description. Of course, I haven't been able to get on Sisi to see if this is actually true or just forum hearsay. You ask why ECM ships are being nerfed? Well, its pretty simply: becouse only Caldary have ECM ships. That pretty unfair to other races, no? Even in current "nerfed" SiSi state caldary ewar ships are much better (TOO MUCH better) than other races ships. I mean, gallente ewar ships have a wooping 5% pre lvl increase in sensor dampeners, and matari 5% for TP, lol. As such, tracking disruptors, dampeners and TP can be used by any race effectivly, and ECM only by select caldary ships. Thats where the root of the problem. Personally, i would like to LOWER racial bonus on caldary ewar ships to same 5% but increase the importance of low-slot ECM-aiding modules. That would allow any ship to take ECM role if needed, at expence of damage and tanking. ECM is a completely different module then the others listed, and you saying that "Because sensor dampeners are so and so", does not mean that it applies to ECM just because it shares the "Electronic Warfare" title. Curse gets nosferatu bonuses, Huginn gets webifier bonuses, Arazu gets scrambler bonuses, Rook gets ECM bonuses. Curse strength = 20% increase to nosferatu amount per level, 40% increase to range. Huginn = 60% Bonus to stasis webification range per level. Arazu = 20% bonus to warp disruption range per level. Rook = 10% increase in ECM amount per level. ECM on a pre-kali rook is not overpowered, but a good arguement can be made that ECM on a pre-kali ship other then the rook/blackbird can indeed becoming overpowered due to tankage+damage that can be acheived while simultaneously running the ECM. I propose, and suggest, that the rook gets its pre-kali jam strength put into effect via a 40% bonus per level to ECM strength. Rooks have never been the problem with ECM. They have basically no tank and are easily countered. Indeed it is the easiest to kill of all Recon ships, and has cap problems without the best of all setups. Thank you for your time, Malicious Wraith (This post here is more about the Falcon/Rook/BB then the Scorpion. The scorpion is indeed a strange phenomena being an "E-War" battleship, able to use electronic warfare will still having the BS sized tanks is a bit overpowered.) ----------------------------------------
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:57:00 - [29] Originally by: miss sixtty You ask why ECM ships are being nerfed? Well, its pretty simply: becouse only Caldary have ECM ships. That pretty unfair to other races, no? Even in current "nerfed" SiSi state caldary ewar ships are much better (TOO MUCH better) than other races ships. I mean, gallente ewar ships have a wooping 5% pre lvl increase in sensor dampeners, and matari 5% for TP, lol. As such, tracking disruptors, dampeners and TP can be used by any race effectivly, and ECM only by select caldary ships. Thats where the root of the problem. Personally, i would like to LOWER racial bonus on caldary ewar ships to same 5% but increase the importance of low-slot ECM-aiding modules. That would allow any ship to take ECM role if needed, at expence of damage and tanking. Well for instance the curse and the pilgram both get a 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per lvl, while the rook gets a 10% strenght per lvl and the falcon get 5% per lvl, so that does not seem so "overpowered as you say.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.10.28 14:32:00 - [30] Bump ----------------------------------------



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