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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.03 11:50:00 - [91] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Yup, that is a good probability, however, let's see what happens if that fella decides to fit a ECCM modules, just too keep him from becoming prey of the day by a rook. with maxed skills you have those 12,7 in jam strenght while a megathron with a single ECCM module gets beefed up to 41 in strenght. that will give you a chance per jammer of 30% and with 3 jammers you got a chance of roughly 65%. With a multispec you end up with a jam probability of just around 21% with 3 tries at 50%. Odds are that you might jam him for 20 seconds, and when you lose the jam you will become BBQed in those 20 seconds until you might get a succesful jam again, because you no longer are able to fit even a 1600mm plate. Yes, but it's not really different for a lachesis or curse if the mega has a sensor booster or tracking CPU fitted. They do nto give an as big boost, but are more commonly used and they do not need to give big boosts in the first place. If a tracking cpu gives the blasters just enough tracking to still hit the curse it's GG for it. Quote: I for one would love for the old system to be reintroduced, where if your jammer strenght was higher than the opponent you would jam him forever. This "probability jam game" has nothing to do with player skills or anything else, it's pure luck if you jam, and unluck of you don't, and if you don't jam, you are dead. At least here we are partically the same opinion. The random system of ECM sucks. I am not convinced the old system was better, though - IMO ECM needs an nonrandom effect which isn't "everything or nothing". Similar like the other EW basically, a continuous combat effeciency reduction of a ship until it falls below a threshold where it effeciently can do something.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.03 12:20:00 - [92] So ... are we seriously trying to say that the Scorp as is, is overpowered? Rook vs. Scorp, I don't care overly. They're different roles IMO. Rooks are faster, and probably more firepower, but with a bigger price tag. Scorps are slow and heavy, but hey, you can fit a heavy nos, and maybe even a 1600mm plate. Not that you'll kill anything, but they're good support ships. I am concerned at having to tie up low slots on a scorp to maintain effectiveness at the one trick there actually any good at. I mean, seriously, it's not like 4 slots are actually an armour tank, the cap on the scorp won't stand running a large repper. And of course, leaving aside that lowslots on a scorp should be for sensor upgrades, e.g. sensor backups and signal amplifiers, and maybe a damage control, rather than anything else - after all, if you can't jam then your armour tank isn't much cop anyway. I would _like_ to see the bonus on scorp, rook and falcon maintain the same relative levels of 'power'. (e.g. the same 'max' jamming strength as is currently). They still suffer the same problem of not being able to kill anything solo anyway, except maybe the rook.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.03 21:08:00 - [93] A rook running ECM boost modules will still not have the same effectiveness as on TQ Currently. ----------------------------------------
tAkErPT Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.03 22:02:00 - [94] I believe in order to make ECM a little more fair it should be like "Small, medium and Large ECM modules" this would be enought to make it fair and not having an inty jamming a Battleship and not making a scorpion completly unuseful
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.03 23:23:00 - [95] Originally by: tAkErPT I believe in order to make ECM a little more fair it should be like "Small, medium and Large ECM modules" this would be enought to make it fair and not having an inty jamming a Battleship and not making a scorpion completly unuseful Only if the rook is then treated like other recon's, and its jammers become superior to all others with the inclusion of large. ----------------------------------------
lordferatu	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:29:00 - [96] i think the answer to the problem is quite simple and has already been outlined by other posters in this thread: - boost the bonuses on ECM dedicated ships enough to cancel out the ECM nerf - forget about the low slot ECM strength module this way dedicated ECM ships will have the exact same strength as they have now on TQ and can keep the same setup as they are currently using. otherwise ships with lots of low slots will be able to achieve higher jamming strengths than the dedicated ships which is just ridiculous. if the ECM dedicated ships have to change their low slot layout to get the same strength as they currently have then this is totally unbalanced. the fact that the scorp could potentially get a better jamming strength that the rook because it has more low slots to fit the new module seems stupid to me. if the changes to ECM reach tranquility in any way other than the one i have outlined you can be sure that you will all be hearing a lot more from me on this subject. (in reference to rigs i am not sure how these would work along side the ideas i have stated as i think they should also not be required to achieve current jammer strength but shouldn't boost it much either on dedicated ships or this too would be unbalanced)
Shortdastard	Posted - 2006.11.04 08:47:00 - [97] Edited by: Shortdastard on 04/11/2006 08:49:25 Ecm is chance based, and all that seems to pop up on the forms is stories of being jammened 90% of the time against a frigate. But it really is a two way street, not only do rook/falcon have no dps/tanking ability but ecm isn't as consistent as people lead to believe. In my falcon with recon 4 and signal dispersion 4 I've missed 18 straight times with a mix of racial and multi's on a raven with no eccm mods fitted, luckily it was alliance member and we're just playing around. After that i was able to keep him jammed most of the time. It really takes 5 to 7 jammers to jamm a bs sometimes, and if there are other enemies around then u find yourself waking up in empire. If you've never really flown ecm boats before u don't relize that your mods regularly miss 60 to 70% of the time, or maybe i'm way off base and have the worst ecm luck in eve. Edit: P.S. bite the bullet fit the **** eccm mod and you'll find your self not that worried about ecm any more
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.04 16:38:00 - [98] Originally by: lordferatu i think the answer to the problem is quite simple and has already been outlined by other posters in this thread: - boost the bonuses on ECM dedicated ships enough to cancel out the ECM nerf - forget about the low slot ECM strength module this way dedicated ECM ships will have the exact same strength as they have now on TQ and can keep the same setup as they are currently using. otherwise ships with lots of low slots will be able to achieve higher jamming strengths than the dedicated ships which is just ridiculous. if the ECM dedicated ships have to change their low slot layout to get the same strength as they currently have then this is totally unbalanced. the fact that the scorp could potentially get a better jamming strength that the rook because it has more low slots to fit the new module seems stupid to me. if the changes to ECM reach tranquility in any way other than the one i have outlined you can be sure that you will all be hearing a lot more from me on this subject. (in reference to rigs i am not sure how these would work along side the ideas i have stated as i think they should also not be required to achieve current jammer strength but shouldn't boost it much either on dedicated ships or this too would be unbalanced) Agreed ----------------------------------------
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.06 00:27:00 - [99] Shameless bump. ----------------------------------------
Trillian Mcmillan The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.11.06 02:12:00 - [100] /bump /signed Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships. If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless. A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:49:00 - [101] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships. If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless. A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support. QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for. Full support. Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!". ----------------------------------------
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 06:07:00 - [102] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships. If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless. A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support. QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for. Full support. Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!". ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM SHIPS still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet. Because I said so...
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:09:00 - [103] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships. If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless. A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support. QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for. Full support. Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!". ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM SHIPS still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet. Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right. Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game. ----------------------------------------
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:23:00 - [104] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: murder one Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships. If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless. A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support. QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for. Full support. Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!". ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM SHIPS still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet. Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right. Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game. You're right. A year of dealing with ECM's broken game play on Tranq holds some weight however. ECM needs a 50% reduction in effectiveness across the board. For everything. As it sits with Kali, ECM actually have a higher peak effectiveness with the correct combination of rigs and modules than they ever did on Tranq. This is clearly a step in the wrong direction. Because I said so...
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:57:00 - [105] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: murder one Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships. If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless. A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support. QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for. Full support. Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!". ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM SHIPS still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet. Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right. Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game. You're right. A year of dealing with ECM's broken game play on Tranq holds some weight however. ECM needs a 50% reduction in effectiveness across the board. For everything. As it sits with Kali, ECM actually have a higher peak effectiveness with the correct combination of rigs and modules than they ever did on Tranq. This is clearly a step in the wrong direction. We dont want the higher peak, we just want ECM ships to remain unchanged from RMR to kali. ----------------------------------------
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 23:57:00 - [106] Edited by: Paladineguru on 08/11/2006 23:59:45 Originally by: Gankor It would be nice if your reply contributed to this thread in some way. To the other posters... Explain to me how a tech 1 Battleship should outperform a tech 2 Recon Cruiser in terms of ECM. well it comes down to the fact that a battleship is the mainstay of a fleet , the largest most versatile weapons platform. tech one battleships REPEATEDLY take out more advanced t2 smaller ships, look at some killboards at what kills hacs the most. its not recons its bs's t2 bonus's were not meant to put them over a bs on ability theyre more to level the playing field with smaller faster vessels in a gang and to provide more options to small numbers combat. as well as keep us all paying for new skills and toys forever :)
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:15:00 - [107] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 09/11/2006 01:19:22 I'm with murderone, anyone that thinks ECM needs to stay the way it is (or keep it's current incarnation on SiSi in which it's more powerful than on Tranq) has lost their mind plain and simple. And jamming has nothing at all to do with depth, whatsoever. It's simpler in preparation, simpler in application and even dumber in effect than gunfire. It's a big fat blanket gamewinner, nothing more and nothing less. The fact that the opening post alone spews incredibly many fallacies (jamming an ECCMed BS is not extremely hard, unless your idea of extremey difficulty constitutes a sub 10% chance of failure).
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:42:00 - [108] Originally by: Malicious Wraith snip We dont want the higher peak, we just want ECM ships to remain unchanged from RMR to kali. "We" don't want it to be unchanged. "We" want a 50% nerf at a minimum. Unchanged? It's overpowered (grossly) the way it is now. I don't want it to remain the same. I want it reduced. Drastically. 50% reduction would be a good starting point. Because I said so...
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:53:00 - [109] So. ECM is nerfed on all ships. It is good and bad. Good we have no more nasty ECM Domi, bad side: Eve is becoming as stupid in PvP as WoW or Lineage. Nerfed all ECM ships up to full unusability. Currenly ECM ships useful and can be pain in the ass. But with some protection and having own ECM ships it is fair game. Sadly, most commanders and just players are too lazy and a way to stupid to bring on battlefield some ECM ships to protect their gang/fleet. They prefer to whine about uberness of ECM. But after Kali all ECM ships are useless. All ECM ship. USELESS. One ECCM module(which will replace former 2 ECM modules) will disable ability to jam. Inability to jam targets for the any ECM ships(which due to next "brilliant" idea of the Tux) HAVE TO FIGHT WITHOUT LOW SLOTS means immediate death.
assclown Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.09 12:48:00 - [110] ok . 50% reduction lets be reasonable here! Thats like saying ok we should have a 50% reduction in all weapons as they are overpowered. Use some sense here. People have Trained thier skills for ECM. Just like others have trained thiers for t2 turrets/missles/drones. And i forget who it was that said that ECM adds no depth to the game. As lets See Caldari has an Entire Tier through all thier ships. That has ECM. The only use of ECM that doesn't add depth was the solo non ecm players running around with a multispec on whatever ship they flew. The devs have already taken a great leap in basically making the ECM ships A true specialty support ship. As some people need to calm down. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=380 I have seen no replies from the devs on this page.Only thing so far is speculation and whats currently on Sisi. As for effectiveness they already said they were going to give boost to the ECM ships. Just take a deep breathe. Its why its called a test server.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:13:00 - [111] Originally by: assclown ok . 50% reduction lets be reasonable here! Thats like saying ok we should have a 50% reduction in all weapons as they are overpowered. Use some sense here. People have Trained thier skills for ECM. Just like others have trained thiers for t2 turrets/missles/drones. And i forget who it was that said that ECM adds no depth to the game. As lets See Caldari has an Entire Tier through all thier ships. That has ECM. The only use of ECM that doesn't add depth was the solo non ecm players running around with a multispec on whatever ship they flew. The devs have already taken a great leap in basically making the ECM ships A true specialty support ship. As some people need to calm down. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=380 I have seen no replies from the devs on this page.Only thing so far is speculation and whats currently on Sisi. As for effectiveness they already said they were going to give boost to the ECM ships. Just take a deep breathe. Its why its called a test server. I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead. How is that balanced? Because I said so...
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:21:00 - [112] Originally by: Inairin ECCM? the only thing ECCM does is make you harder to jam, which is a pretty good thing, but it's still a single purpose defensive module. things like tracking computers and sensor boosters, while not giving very much defense against TD and SD they still have offensive uses. This has changed slightly on SiSi, ECCM now has a second use and that is to make you harder to probe for. The Probe signal strength formula includes Signature Radius / Sensor Strength. Put 2 ECCM on your ship and you will be much harder to find with probes.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:28:00 - [113] Originally by: murder one I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead. How is that balanced? Because proved, that you, 6 month old noobie, lies everywhere. Atm you are only person which constantly reports about 100% chance to jam any ship from any ship. I prefer to wait answer from more reliable sources, than your mouth.
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:45:00 - [114] Edited by: LC Sulla on 09/11/2006 13:45:24 I think 'ol Murder One is prone to a little exaggeration to make his point. Everyone else says the strengths have gone down (even in dedicated ships) which means that in order to jam better the sensor strengths of the ships must have gone down too. This is not the case. Therefore BY DEFINITION in a probability based system there MUST be a reduced chance to jam if the jammer strengths are down. Quote: I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead. The only way to test probabilities correctly is using multiple runs of identical conditions and collating the results, ie. Quote: After running 200 jam strength tests under identical conditions and collating the results we conclude the following, A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs (with jam strength S) can jam a single BS with X sensor strength Y% of the time. The jam is, on average, broken after Z cycles with ALL jammers on. A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs can jam two BS's with X sensor strengths Y1% of the time. The jam on one BS is, on average, broken after Z1 cycles with 4 jammers on 1 BS and 3 jammers on the other. ... Don't try and play scientist... you're neither very convincing or very good at it. At best you are using pseudo scientific techniques to make a point (like commenting only on the 1 test that suited your claim and ignoring the rest) or at worst you are committing scientific fraud (like making it all up). Run home to your mother boy and leave the testing to the adults.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:53:00 - [115] Originally by: LC Sulla Edited by: LC Sulla on 09/11/2006 13:45:24 I think 'ol Murder One is prone to a little exaggeration to make his point. Everyone else says the strengths have gone down (even in dedicated ships) which means that in order to jam better the sensor strengths of the ships must have gone down too. This is not the case. Therefore BY DEFINITION in a probability based system there MUST be a reduced chance to jam if the jammer strengths are down. Quote: I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead. The only way to test probabilities correctly is using multiple runs of identical conditions and collating the results, ie. Quote: After running 200 jam strength tests under identical conditions and collating the results we conclude the following, A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs (with jam strength S) can jam a single BS with X sensor strength Y% of the time. The jam is, on average, broken after Z cycles with ALL jammers on. A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs can jam two BS's with X sensor strengths Y1% of the time. The jam on one BS is, on average, broken after Z1 cycles with 4 jammers on 1 BS and 3 jammers on the other. ... Don't try and play scientist... you're neither very convincing or very good at it. At best you are using pseudo scientific techniques to make a point (like commenting only on the 1 test that suited your claim and ignoring the rest) or at worst you are committing scientific fraud (like making it all up). Run home to your mother boy and leave the testing to the adults. I'm not exaggerating. I don't have to. I'm simply building my ships to exploit ECM to maximum effect. And I show all my friends/alliance mates/corp mates how to do it too, so then they do it. Once you install an ECM module (hypnos multispec lets say) and add in 3 ECM strength rigs (all t1 ships have 3 rig slots) and have some average ecm skills (ecm strength skill to L3 lets say) then you're looking at a multispec with a strength of about 4.8 or so. This is without ECM ship bonuses, or using ECM strength booster mods in the low slots. So when my gang mates all fit ships out just like the above, and use the rigs to put back what the devs took away, ECM is exactly f#cking like it is on Tranq. And when you have 5-6 multispecs on one target, you can jam the ever loving f#ck out of it, regardless of how much eccm it has. Everyone else thinks the strengths have gone down because they're not using the ECM mods correctly (i.e. exploiting them for maximum effect). Because I said so...
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 14:06:00 - [116] Edited by: LC Sulla on 09/11/2006 14:09:19 Then you should have stated your test conditions EXACTLY in the previous examples. State what rigs your were using, what jamming skill bonuses you get from skills (signal dispersion) and what you jam strength is. Jam probabilities, etc... 5-6 ECM's with a jam strength of 4.8 will indeed jam a ship most of the time (but an ECCM will still lower the chance but not make you invunerable from it). The point is that if you are exploiting ECM to maximum effect using boost mods and rigs then you SHOULD have a good chance to jam someone. But you will gimp you ship in terms of damage output. If you are going to do that then just fly a Caldari jamming ship. Simple thing is they are support ships. They don't do heaps of damage. How many pvp'ers have heard of the single scorp 'raiding' the supply pipe. Never in my case. Vaga's are better, scorps are slow heavy lumbering hulks. But they have there uses.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 14:13:00 - [117] Originally by: LC Sulla Edited by: LC Sulla on 09/11/2006 14:09:19 Then you should have stated your test conditions EXACTLY in the previous examples. State what rigs your were using, what jamming skill bonuses you get from skills (signal dispersion) and what you jam strength is. Jam probabilities, etc... 5-6 ECM's with a jam strength of 4.8 will indeed jam a ship most of the time (but an ECCM will still lower the chance but not make you invunerable from it). The point is that if you are exploiting ECM to maximum effect using boost mods and rigs then you SHOULD have a good chance to jam someone. But you will gimp you ship in terms of damage output. If you are going to do that then just fly a Caldari jamming ship. Simple thing is they are support ships. They don't do heaps of damage. How many pvp'ers have heard of the single scorp 'raiding' the supply pipe. Never in my case. Vaga's are better, scorps are slow heavy lumbering hulks. But they have there uses. Please re-read my post. I specifically said that I'm not using boost mods, just ecm rigs, and that I'm not flying ECM specific ships (rook, blackbird, scorp), I'm flying regular combat ships fitted with ecm rigs which have just as much DPS as any regular ship on TQ would. So let me be extremely clear: *ECM IS JUST AS GOOD IN KALI AS IT IS IN TRANQ FOR REGULAR NORMAL COMBAT SHIPS. THAT IS TO SAY: WAY TOO GODED OVER POWERED. Adding booster mods and using ECM on EWAR ships makes it even worse. Because I said so...*
DarK STK Scientific	Posted - 2006.11.09 14:57:00 - [118] Haven't read the whole lot but; Instead of changing all the numbers and such to make ECM bad on non-ecm ships and bringing it back to the same level with bonuses on ecm ships, why not just do it fitting wise? Increase CPU use dramatically and increase CPU on ECM ships and/or increase cap use while giving ECM ships a cap use bonus. This will still allow other ships to fit them but would not be a good idea. On a side note, as has been mentioned before, I still think that ECM shuld be the disabling of hardpoints combined with the old system of ECM. 20 sensor strength on an 8 weapon hardpoint ship, an ECM ship would require 20 sensor strength in total on their modules to disable 100% of their hardpoints. Where the old system sucked was that if your opponent had some backups and you had even 1 too little strength you were basically screwed, all or nothing principle basically. However if as an ECM ship you only had 16 sensor strength in modules then you would only disable 80% of their hardpoints. This would remove the whole randomness crap of the current system but avoids the black and whiteness of the old system. It also gives the jammed ship a bit of a chance, especially if they have backups in their lows.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:20:00 - [119] Just give ECM ships their RMR strength, remove their usage of ECM boost modules, keep the Revelations gimped ECM for all other ships and viola. Instant fun. ----------------------------------------
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:34:00 - [120] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Instant fun. For all caldari specced people.

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