Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe?

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level.

That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe?

---

Originally by: Alexander Knott

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level.

That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe?

---

Rook would need a 40% bonus per level to have the same jam strength at Recon 5. The others you got dead on.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level.

That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe?

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships

---

In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then.

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships

---

In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then.

---

That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships

---

In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then.

---

That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs.

---

Thats gimping it compared to everything else, you can upgrade most anything with rigs.

Leave jamming out just because someone feels like it?

How about we leave blasters out of rig damage bonuses, they dont need any more damage increase then they already have!

Get my point?

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships

---

In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then.

---

That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs.

---

Thats gimping it compared to everything else, you can upgrade most anything with rigs.

Leave jamming out just because someone feels like it?

How about we leave blasters out of rig damage bonuses, they dont need any more damage increase then they already have!

Get my point?

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

No, I don't get your point. ECM ships are generally gimped in everything except ECM anyway.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

The scorpion, having more low-slots, becomes the strongest jamming ship in the game as was not intended.
The rook is supposed to be the strongest jammer in the game.

---

Originally by: Amarr knight

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

The scorpion, having more low-slots, becomes the strongest jamming ship in the game as was not intended.
The rook is supposed to be the strongest jammer in the game.

---

Says WHO?

---

Quote:

---

Name: Rook
Hull: Blackbird
Role: Combat Recon Ship

Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds.

---

Originally by: Gankor

---

It's not a claim, it's in the game description for the Rook.

---

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

---

Originally by: Gankor

---

It's not a claim, it's in the game description for the Rook.

---

Bwahaha. If you believe the things that the game descriptions tell you, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Cheap.

Ship descriptions generally have only a fleeting resemblance to game reality.

---

Originally by: starship enginer

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

No, I don't get your point. ECM ships are generally gimped in everything except ECM anyway.

---

my heart bleeds for you that you can only jam 8 cepters constantly in a scorp while fitting 4 cruise launchers and 2 heavy nosf. what a crap ship noobs


so your rook that could consta jam 7hacs can now only jam them with 75% effect. cry me a river, make it a bg river too

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%.

Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed.

30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5.

---

Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%.

Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed.

30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5.

---

Your math IS screwy.
Take 100 as the original value. Now the new value is 50% of the old one, right? So the new value is 50%.

100x(100%+5x10%=150%)= 100x1.5=150.
50x(100%+5x30%=250%)=50x2.5=125.
When you halve the original value the boost per percentage is also halved. So if the original value is halved it needs a 200% total bonus to match the original 50% bonus, thus 40% per level.

---

Originally by: Alexander Knott

---

Edited by: Alexander Knott on 27/10/2006 21:10:35
Actually, what's more troubling is that apparently the Rook got bumped to 20% strength/level, which is nowhere near good enough. With that bonus and maxed skills, a Rook will be about as good at jamming as a Blackbird is today.

I'd actually feel better about the ECM ships if they had not received their new bonuses yet. At least that way I could tell myself "well, maybe they just haven't gotten to it yet." Instead it seems like they have gotten to it, but the new bonus just isn't nearly good enough.

Edit: I should have said the bonus for the Rook is in effect, but isn't in the description. Of course, I haven't been able to get on Sisi to see if this is actually true or just forum hearsay.

---

Originally by: miss sixtty

---

Originally by: Alexander Knott

---

Edited by: Alexander Knott on 27/10/2006 21:10:35
Actually, what's more troubling is that apparently the Rook got bumped to 20% strength/level, which is nowhere near good enough. With that bonus and maxed skills, a Rook will be about as good at jamming as a Blackbird is today.

I'd actually feel better about the ECM ships if they had not received their new bonuses yet. At least that way I could tell myself "well, maybe they just haven't gotten to it yet." Instead it seems like they have gotten to it, but the new bonus just isn't nearly good enough.

Edit: I should have said the bonus for the Rook is in effect, but isn't in the description. Of course, I haven't been able to get on Sisi to see if this is actually true or just forum hearsay.

---

You ask why ECM ships are being nerfed? Well, its pretty simply: becouse only Caldary have ECM ships. That pretty unfair to other races, no? Even in current "nerfed" SiSi state caldary ewar ships are much better (TOO MUCH better) than other races ships. I mean, gallente ewar ships have a wooping 5% pre lvl increase in sensor dampeners, and matari 5% for TP, lol. As such, tracking disruptors, dampeners and TP can be used by any race effectivly, and ECM only by select caldary ships. Thats where the root of the problem. Personally, i would like to LOWER racial bonus on caldary ewar ships to same 5% but increase the importance of low-slot ECM-aiding modules. That would allow any ship to take ECM role if needed, at expence of damage and tanking.

---

Originally by: miss sixtty

---

You ask why ECM ships are being nerfed? Well, its pretty simply: becouse only Caldary have ECM ships. That pretty unfair to other races, no? Even in current "nerfed" SiSi state caldary ewar ships are much better (TOO MUCH better) than other races ships. I mean, gallente ewar ships have a wooping 5% pre lvl increase in sensor dampeners, and matari 5% for TP, lol. As such, tracking disruptors, dampeners and TP can be used by any race effectivly, and ECM only by select caldary ships. Thats where the root of the problem. Personally, i would like to LOWER racial bonus on caldary ewar ships to same 5% but increase the importance of low-slot ECM-aiding modules. That would allow any ship to take ECM role if needed, at expence of damage and tanking.

---

Originally by: Kipkruide

---

well they did want to nerf it, that means it will be worse then before. :), not as good as. ccp always overnerfs first.

---

Originally by: AsiaFury

---

there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: AsiaFury

---

there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.

---

This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: AsiaFury

---

there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.

---

This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else.

---

It's not over nerfed. And all the EW ships still have *PLENTY* of ECM strength when used with the ECM booster mods. One Blackbird with two booster mods jammed my Megathron about 90% of the time with two racial jammers. That seems pretty effective do me, don't you think?

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: AsiaFury

---

there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.

---

This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else.

---

It's not over nerfed. And all the EW ships still have *PLENTY* of ECM strength when used with the ECM booster mods. One Blackbird with two booster mods jammed my Megathron about 90% of the time with two racial jammers. That seems pretty effective do me, don't you think?

---

I dont care what "That blackbird" did,

I care about statistics, actual numbers.

Even with "The mods' on, you are completely limiting the ships mentioned above.

Im asking for one thing:

"Reinstate ECM DEDICATED ships old strength"

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Kipkruide

---

well they did want to nerf it, that means it will be worse then before. :), not as good as. ccp always overnerfs first.

---

Problem always was ships like domi's/tempest's using ECM's, never the ECM ships.

Rook *needs* its ecm strength.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: AsiaFury

---

there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.

---

This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else.

---

It's not over nerfed. And all the EW ships still have *PLENTY* of ECM strength when used with the ECM booster mods. One Blackbird with two booster mods jammed my Megathron about 90% of the time with two racial jammers. That seems pretty effective do me, don't you think?

---

I dont care what "That blackbird" did,

I care about statistics, actual numbers.

Even with "The mods' on, you are completely limiting the ships mentioned above.

Im asking for one thing:

"Reinstate ECM DEDICATED ships old strength"

---

I don't get it. What are you complaining about exactly? With the low slot mods the ships are just as effective as they currently are on Tranq. You saying that the ECM ships shouldn't need the low slot mods? Or that even with the low slot mods they arn't as effective as they are currently on Tranq?

Either way, it's exactly correct the way it currently is on Sisi. The low slot booster mods work great. There is nothing wrong with requiring the ECM ships to fit them to be effective. Any other questions?

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

Well all the other racial ew modules are not chance based. Take a sensor dampered ew ship, fit a couple of sensor dampers and stay just out of lock range, that way you will keep your target locked down forever. The same is not possible with a rook for instance. As soon as you lose a jam cycle, you will end up dead vs. a battleship.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Ignoring that missing a cycle on a single BS is not really very common for a rook - not all targets are BSs. A rook vs 4 inties can basically guarantee to permajam them. Sensor damperners vs 4 inties will be utterly useless.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

And, as said: right now the other recons tend to fit rather ECM than their racial EW. Do you think a gallente or minmatar recon survive longer than a rook und BS fire? And they do not get the boni on it, yet they still use it because it is better. It's about as strong as their own EW vs their preferred targets and has no loopholes unlike the other EW systems.

---

Originally by: Statics

---

If you don't like being jammed, fit ECCM! Everyone fits WCS to avoid be scrammed but nobody fits ECCM or backups to avoid being jammed.

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

As I know you are aware of ecm will be so nerfed in kali, that probably not a single ship besides the ecm-based ship will use ecm. So using an argument with ecm in it's current form, to state that all other EW ships fit ecm is not really usable as they will not be doing so after kali.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

What many people ignore is that ECM is not the only EW system. There are also damperners & tracking disruptors. When you compare it vs these the two main arguments, eccm & lack of tanking, get pretty much negated.

ECCM: There are also counter-modules for the other EW systems, so for comparing ECM towards other EW ECCM is pretty meaningless.

---

Originally by: Namtuk

---

I think the main porblem is that some poeple will have to start thinking in combat they can`t just activate the ECM and they don¦t have to worry about being shot at. ECM heavy users will have to start to train and use other stuff and might need better weapon skills now that they can`t use there I WIN BUTTON. I fell so sorry for u poor people NOT. Try to adapt and fight with ur brains in future.

---

Originally by: Statics

---

That's crap. I don't see people crying about damps and tracking disrupters. Why? People don't use them much because they either A) don't understand tracking, B) don't understand gunnery, or C) have no clue what dampners do. Also, everyone and their brother fits sensor boosters and tracking mods anyway. If everyone fit ECCM or sensor backups as readily as people use the other two "counter-modules", there would be no complaining about ECM... oh wait, this is the EVE-O forums, nevermind that last bit.

---

Quote:

---

You probably had to look up "transversal" in the dictionary so feel like you used your brain to play a video game. Grow up. I agree with the consensus that multispecs on a every other ship is almost an "I WIN" button, but this thread isn't about that. This is about the dedicated ECM ships being overnerfed. And just because you may not play the ECM role in gang/fleet warfare, don't belittle the training time and experience required to be a professional EWAR pilot by saying we now need to train some "real" skills.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Multispecs are even more of an I-Win button on a ECM-specced ship as on a non-ECM specced ship. I am using on an arbi right now 2 multispecs and 2 TD. Want to know why? Because I cannot run 4 multispecs continuously. I doubt that a BB has a substantinally worse tank, too, it can fit an 1600mm plate just as well.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Vs the other EW systems ECM is plain out to strong, or better: it is too universally useable. The other EW systems have targets without any countermodules where they are plain out ineffective.

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

Well all the other racial ew modules are not chance based. Take a sensor dampered ew ship, fit a couple of sensor dampers and stay just out of lock range, that way you will keep your target locked down forever. The same is not possible with a rook for instance. As soon as you lose a jam cycle, you will end up dead vs. a battleship.

A chance based system is not comparable to a non chance based system in my eyes.

the ecm-based ship should stay in their current form on TQ and srew the low slot modules imo

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

Have you tried that fitting on sisi yet, I mean fitting 2 ecm modules and seen the effect of it now? I'm pretty sure it's been nerfed so hard that you will not find any use of it at all.

---

Quote:

---

So you are saying that TD should have a severe boost, sounds good to me

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

You still miss the point. Copy-paste (this time with bolded text)

bla

---

Quote:

---

I am saying the the balance of ECM towards the other EW systems is broken.
Boosting TD and SD would be one way to solve this, but it seems to me more than those 2 are balanced atm while ECM isn't.

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

You can make all your little <<>>>>><<><<<<<< all you want, it's still just your opinion, and every single time you make a point, you are using pre ecm nerf stats which isn't what this topic is about at all.
It seems more like it's this way now.

ECM without shipbonus << other EW with small shipbonus
ECM with small shipbonus < other EW with small shipbonus
ECM with big shipbonus = other EW with small shipbonus

---

Quote:

---

If tux decided to keep the ecm-based ships with the same strenght they have now on tq, all of the EW specialized boats would be balanced.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Not if you include the lowslot ECM "damagemods".

---

Quote:

---

*sigh*

No. See my original argumentation.

---

Originally by: Alexander Knott

---

I will say that I find it puzzling that ECM ships are required to give up low slots to maintain their jamming strength since these slots have traditionally been used to keep ECM ships from popping instantly when they come under fire. I would have much preferred an option that sacrificed offensive power. Someone mentioned simply making ECM modules take high slots, which I thought was a fairly nifty idea.

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 29/10/2006 21:42:53

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Not if you include the lowslot ECM "damagemods".

---

as I already stated, nobody wants the damage mods, there is no need for them. This will nerf the ecm-based ship as you will have to sacrifice your lowslot to get somewhat close to what you had before. It's like nerfing the hell out of TD or SD and those dedicated ships and then get them to use all their lowslots to get the same values again. it's just plain stupid, as there is no need for it. ECM is not overpowered on decidated ships. Fit eccm if you feel that you need to be safe, and those modules WILL keep you safe from jamming

Quote:

---

*sigh*

No. See my original argumentation.

---

your original argument was shot to pieces by statics, so no reason to read or comment on it again

---

Originally by: murder one

---

I want the ecm booster mods. So much for 'nobody'. ECM needs to become a very specialized niche ship rather than the all encompassing general use ship that it is now.

If you want to jam someone, use a racial jammer and boosters. Don't have the right ones fitted? Too bad. It needs to be more specialized. Turret disruptors don't work against missile boats. Going up against a gunship? Use a TD. Going up against a missile boat? Well, there arn't any good defences against missiles, so I guess Caldari wins again.

Point being, it *should* be a requirement that you need racial ecm to be effective. And ECM ships should be just that. ECM. No offence, no defence. Just ECM. It's up to your gang mates to protect you.

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 29/10/2006 21:42:53

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Not if you include the lowslot ECM "damagemods".

---

as I already stated, nobody wants the damage mods, there is no need for them. This will nerf the ecm-based ship as you will have to sacrifice your lowslot to get somewhat close to what you had before. It's like nerfing the hell out of TD or SD and those dedicated ships and then get them to use all their lowslots to get the same values again. it's just plain stupid, as there is no need for it. ECM is not overpowered on decidated ships. Fit eccm if you feel that you need to be safe, and those modules WILL keep you safe from jamming

---

Quote:

---

your original argument was shot to pieces by statics, so no reason to read or comment on it again

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

His points were crap, and I responded to his post why. He did not bother to answer so far. maybe because he could not find any counterarguments?

Oh well, be happy with your blinkers.

---

Originally by: Talia Windheart

---

log on to Sisi.. fit the ships.. FLY THE SHIPS.. find out that.. 1) ewar ships jam more often then ever.. 2) on another other than a bs an ECCM is a waste of a slot for something u prolly need to live.. OHH ****NN.. and if ur rook dies easy ur not flying it right.. ever rook i have ever fought has jammed me.. and either warped out or killed me.. never has a rook failed to jam my ship.. racials.. not multi's u got enough mid slots to run 4 racials and 2 multi's and 1 sensor booster.. no sense in beefing up a ship just so ur multispec fits still work as effective..

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

This has nothing to do with beefing it up. Tux said in his ECM thread that he would nerf the modules but boost the specific ships.

---

Quote:

---

And with the introduction of low slot ecm aid modules there will be NO room at all left for tanking, so the ROOK will die in a sec.

---

Quote:

---

In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down. It seems fair to sacrifice hard defenses for electronic warfare, but this isn't really totally true. You're using a low slot when armor tanking, leaving a med slot free for electronic warfare.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

And he did just that. The boost of the ships did not totally negate the nerf, but it changes nothing that they got boosted.
And with the ECM damagemods they are not really weaker than now.

---

Quote:

---

Tux also said that one weakness of ECM ships is the weak tank. You want tank & strong ECM, Tux said strong ECM on the expanse of tank. Selective reading 4tl!

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

I'm pretty sure this isn't a scorp vs. rook contest, but rather a thread about why the ecm dedicated ship are getting nerfed, or if the devs just forgot about the boost tux promised us. All I see is that they introduced an extra low slot module which will nerf ecm since every scorp and rook pilot will have to fit such a module to even compare to the old stats.

It's like nerfing nos, and introducing a low slot module to every ship like the curse or pilgrim to get in line with the same stats it had before.

All I can say is that this seems like yet another caldari nerf

---

Originally by: Namtuk

---

Edited by: Namtuk on 29/10/2006 14:54:23
I think the main porblem is that some poeple will have to start thinking in combat they can`t just activate the ECM and they don¦t have to worry about being shot at. ECM heavy users will have to start to train and use other stuff and might need better weapon skills now that they can`t use there I WIN BUTTON. I fell so sorry for u poor people NOT. Try to adapt and fight with ur brains in future.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Statics

---

That's crap. They use ECM more because ecm works against *everything*. SD won't be of much use against closerange ships, since those will MWD into close range anway. TDs will not do anything against missile ships and are also rather ineffective vs ACs and blasters, unless you use them vs ships bigger than your own ships.
And in both cases they are rather ineffective vs smaller ships than your own, because these are faster and can easily come close to you and bypass the damperner range reduction or the reduced weaponrange of the TDs.

ECM, on the other hand has no loopholes and is contrary to the other EW modules even MORE effective vs smaller ships. And ECCM is less commonly used than sensor boosters or tracking comps, so it suffers less effeciency reduction, too.

If anything ECCM needs to be boosted to bring it on par with the other EWs anti-modules.

---

ECM DOES have a loophole, i.e. it's chance based progressively so against larger ships with better radar strength. Frankly, I prefer to have a better chance vs. larger shpis compared to smaller ships. Like you said above, Tracking is better vs. larger ships and useless vs. smaller ships. Well I can have that inty shooting at me, if the Blastertron is not, I don't really care. Fit 1, just 1 named ECCM on a Megathron and watch the futile attempts to jam it.. maybe 1 or twice during the whole battle.

Dampeners and trackings are 100% catch modules. put 2 tracking distruptors on any rail boat and watch it miss every time..

Simply because you are not skilled or prefer not to use other forms of EW doesn't mean that ECM is the only one.

moreover every race gets an EW. I am not going to sit around here and explain myself WHY CCP chose to give ECM to Caldari, nor is my place. Write a petition to ask them if you please...

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Without the need to use them in their lowslots a blackbird can fit an 1600mm plate just as an arbi, celestis or belli can do and have pretty much the same tank.
I thought the downside of ECM was having a weak tank?

---

Originally by: James Snowscoran

---

Where to begin? This is certainly a tricky issue.

As for eccm, well...a rook with 7 t2 multispecs, recon 4 and signal dispersion 4 will be able to jam a dominix with a racial t2 eccm module 82,1% of the time. My math skills aren't good enough to make precise calculations about more than one ship, but as far as I can gather from playing around with my calculator it can't be reliably expected to keep 2 eccm boosted battleships out of combat. And this is with one eccm module fitted, I don't have access to quickfit where I am atm so I can't calculate stacking penalties but I'm fairly certain 2 eccm modules would make the domi very hard to jam. Without eccm, the domi only has a 5% chance of escaping a jam- so the effect is undeniably substantial (giving a 258% better chance of escaping a jam).

---

Originally by: Black Scorpio

---

And what is the downside of other forms of EW? None ? That's fair.. dont' you think...

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Black Scorpio

---

And what is the downside of other forms of EW? None ? That's fair.. dont' you think...

---

Let's see

Damperners and TDs are pretty much useless against smaller ships than your own. ECM gets stronger vs smaller targets.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Apart from this damperners are rather ineffective vs close range ships since the targetting range reduction does not hurt those much, since they need to get close to hit you anyway. Sure you can try to outrun them with a MWD, but to do this you do not need damperners.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

TDs are only effective vs turrets. Everything else - which isn't only missiles, but also Nos, webs, warpscramblers, ECM and damps will work just fine vs you. Also, if you go vs ACs or blasters TDs will only have any "real" effect if you use them vs ships bigger than you.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

And, of cource, damperners and TDs do not work vs drones, but this at least is one weakness they share with ECM.

---

Originally by: Black Scorpio

---

As I mentioned I'd rather be protected from larger ships than smaller ones!

---

Quote:

---

Yes you can outrun them and use your dumpeners. For TD, you don't have to outrun big ships, just mess up their tracking and you're golden. It will be a 'miss fest'!

---

Quote:

---

ECMs are only useful pretty much when you fit the correct racial one, not to mention AGAIN the chance based nature, that you just don't seem to acknowledge.

---

Quote:

---

Yes, lets talk about the UBER nature of drones then, how about that for a change ?

---

Originally by: Inairin

---

Edited by: Inairin on 02/11/2006 22:30:39
snipped due to length limitation

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Black Scorpio

---

As I mentioned I'd rather be protected from larger ships than smaller ones!

---

ECM is chance based because it is an everything or nothing effect. However, if you stack it and use 3 of them on the same target you have a pretty good chance of keeping it jammed. SD and TDs also need to stack 3 modules on a target to achieve a true disabeling effect.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Sure, if you want to. As far as I see it drone tracking needs a nerf. Heavy drones should not be able to hit cruisers as easily. Drone ships already have the advantage to hold different sets of drones (aka turret sizes).

---

Originally by: Black Scorpio

---

Originally by: Inairin

---

Edited by: Inairin on 02/11/2006 22:30:39
snipped due to length limitation

---

Inairin, as many ECMs as one may have for all you know and you test all of them might not "catch". Saying "oh having 3 ECMs" left is ridiculous.

If in RL you have 3 tosses of a coin and you are judged to live or die if you don't get say a heads or tail would you take that chance ? I don't think so.. you know why? 50% isn't any good that's why. Good thing Eve is not RL, but i still won't like slaving to get back those 80 mil for a Rook for e.g, would you ?

Kill an inty with 4 cruises? or 4 torps? have you tried that? I know form experience it takes pretty darn long unless you have 4 T2 precision cruises, and then you really need to switch gears. On smaller ship, say the BB, you can't even to any real damage on these ships!

ECCM doesn't do as good as it is supposed to? Hell yes it does. 96% named ECCM x 2 say about 150% bonus to your radar.. ok, on a ship with 20+ radar such as say the Mega, you have about 50 strength.

a ECM with 10 power will have a chance to jam you what 20%?

Do you consider this to be a great weapon? I do not think it is. And "wasting" two slots for ECCM will not prevent you from surviving, hell it will make the Scorpion form ever engaging as you tear the ship apart in no time.

so dont give me taht c.R-Ap about ECM being the ultra very essence of the ultimate weapon type of thing. It is a weapon, but one you can hardly can consider unprotected and weak against with the slightest insight and planning/preparation!

---

Originally by: Black Scorpio

---

No, they will not have a "pretty good chance" they will have 3x the same chance.

---

Quote:

---

Hey, how come noone is discussing that then? Is it because the forums it seems are progressively flooded with Pro-Gallente pilots with one aim in ming - nerfing Caldari?

---

Quote:

---

All things apart ECM is everything but Uber in this game. The ECM specialized ships are nothing but support ships and are not so much fun flying and using, except for helping your corp/alliance in need.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Vs a deimos thats a 85% chance to jam it with one. If you use 3 vs it you have a 99.64% chance that at least *one* is working (99.9% with tranq stats).

Vs a megathron you have a 60% chance to jam it with one. Using 3 at once results in at least one working in 93.8% of all cases (95.4% with tranq stats).

---

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

---

Yup, that is a good probability, however, let's see what happens if that fella decides to fit a ECCM modules, just too keep him from becoming prey of the day by a rook.

with maxed skills you have those 12,7 in jam strenght while a megathron with a single ECCM module gets beefed up to 41 in strenght.
that will give you a chance per jammer of 30% and with 3 jammers you got a chance of roughly 65%.

With a multispec you end up with a jam probability of just around 21% with 3 tries at 50%. Odds are that you might jam him for 20 seconds, and when you lose the jam you will become BBQed in those 20 seconds until you might get a succesful jam again, because you no longer are able to fit even a 1600mm plate.

---

Quote:

---

I for one would love for the old system to be reintroduced, where if your jammer strenght was higher than the opponent you would jam him forever. This "probability jam game" has nothing to do with player skills or anything else, it's pure luck if you jam, and unluck of you don't, and if you don't jam, you are dead.

---

Originally by: tAkErPT

---

I believe in order to make ECM a little more fair it should be like "Small, medium and Large ECM modules" this would be enought to make it fair and not having an inty jamming a Battleship and not making a scorpion completly unuseful

---

Originally by: lordferatu

---

i think the answer to the problem is quite simple and has already been outlined by other posters in this thread:

- boost the bonuses on ECM dedicated ships enough to cancel out the ECM nerf
- forget about the low slot ECM strength module

this way dedicated ECM ships will have the exact same strength as they have now on TQ and can keep the same setup as they are currently using. otherwise ships with lots of low slots will be able to achieve higher jamming strengths than the dedicated ships which is just ridiculous.

if the ECM dedicated ships have to change their low slot layout to get the same strength as they currently have then this is totally unbalanced. the fact that the scorp could potentially get a better jamming strength that the rook because it has more low slots to fit the new module seems stupid to me.

if the changes to ECM reach tranquility in any way other than the one i have outlined you can be sure that you will all be hearing a lot more from me on this subject.

(in reference to rigs i am not sure how these would work along side the ideas i have stated as i think they should also not be required to achieve current jammer strength but shouldn't boost it much either on dedicated ships or this too would be unbalanced)

---

Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan

---

/bump
/signed


Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.

If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.

A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan

---

/bump
/signed


Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.

If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.

A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.

---

QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.

Full support.


Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!".

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan

---

/bump
/signed


Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.

If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.

A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.

---

QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.

Full support.


Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!".

---

ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan

---

/bump
/signed


Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.

If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.

A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.

---

QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.

Full support.


Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!".

---

ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.

---

Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right.

Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan

---

/bump
/signed


Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.

If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.

A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.

---

QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.

Full support.


Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!".

---

ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.

---

Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right.

Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game.

---

You're right. A year of dealing with ECM's broken game play on Tranq holds some weight however.

ECM needs a 50% reduction in effectiveness across the board. For everything. As it sits with Kali, ECM actually have a higher peak effectiveness with the correct combination of rigs and modules than they ever did on Tranq.

This is clearly a step in the wrong direction.

---

Originally by: Gankor

---

It would be nice if your reply contributed to this thread in some way.

To the other posters...
Explain to me how a tech 1 Battleship should outperform a tech 2 Recon Cruiser in terms of ECM.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

*snip*
We dont want the higher peak, we just want ECM ships to remain unchanged from RMR to kali.

---

Originally by: assclown

---

ok . 50% reduction lets be reasonable here! Thats like saying ok we should have a 50% reduction in all weapons as they are overpowered. Use some sense here.

People have Trained thier skills for ECM. Just like others have trained thiers for t2 turrets/missles/drones.

And i forget who it was that said that ECM adds no depth to the game. As lets See Caldari has an Entire Tier through all thier ships. That has ECM. The only use of ECM that doesn't add depth was the solo non ecm players running around with a multispec on whatever ship they flew.

The devs have already taken a great leap in basically making the ECM ships A true specialty support ship.
As some people need to calm down.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=380

I have seen no replies from the devs on this page.Only thing so far is speculation and whats currently on Sisi.

As for effectiveness they already said they were going to give boost to the ECM ships.

Just take a deep breathe. Its why its called a test server.

---

Originally by: Inairin

---

ECCM? the only thing ECCM does is make you harder to jam, which is a pretty good thing, but it's still a single purpose defensive module. things like tracking computers and sensor boosters, while not giving very much defense against TD and SD they still have offensive uses.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead.

How is that balanced?

---

Quote:

---

I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead.

---

Quote:

---

After running 200 jam strength tests under identical conditions and collating the results we conclude the following,
A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs (with jam strength S) can jam a single BS with X sensor strength Y% of the time. The jam is, on average, broken after Z cycles with ALL jammers on.
A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs can jam two BS's with X sensor strengths Y1% of the time. The jam on one BS is, on average, broken after Z1 cycles with 4 jammers on 1 BS and 3 jammers on the other.
...

---

Originally by: LC Sulla

---

Edited by: LC Sulla on 09/11/2006 13:45:24
I think 'ol Murder One is prone to a little exaggeration to make his point. Everyone else says the strengths have gone down (even in dedicated ships) which means that in order to jam better the sensor strengths of the ships must have gone down too. This is not the case.

Therefore BY DEFINITION in a probability based system there MUST be a reduced chance to jam if the jammer strengths are down.

Quote:

---

I put together a 5 man gang on test. I warp into FFA1 where there is another 5-6 man gang with approximately the same composition as my own (3 tier2 BCs, 2 HACs). Fair fight right? Nope. I have my buddy warp in at 110km with a Rook and keep every single one of them perma-jammed until they're all dead.

---

The only way to test probabilities correctly is using multiple runs of identical conditions and collating the results, ie.

Quote:

---

After running 200 jam strength tests under identical conditions and collating the results we conclude the following,
A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs (with jam strength S) can jam a single BS with X sensor strength Y% of the time. The jam is, on average, broken after Z cycles with ALL jammers on.
A Rook mounted with a rack of hypnos multi-specs can jam two BS's with X sensor strengths Y1% of the time. The jam on one BS is, on average, broken after Z1 cycles with 4 jammers on 1 BS and 3 jammers on the other.
...

---

Don't try and play scientist... you're neither very convincing or very good at it. At best you are using pseudo scientific techniques to make a point (like commenting only on the 1 test that suited your claim and ignoring the rest) or at worst you are committing scientific fraud (like making it all up).

Run home to your mother boy and leave the testing to the adults.

---

Originally by: LC Sulla

---

Edited by: LC Sulla on 09/11/2006 14:09:19
Then you should have stated your test conditions EXACTLY in the previous examples. State what rigs your were using, what jamming skill bonuses you get from skills (signal dispersion) and what you jam strength is. Jam probabilities, etc...

5-6 ECM's with a jam strength of 4.8 will indeed jam a ship most of the time (but an ECCM will still lower the chance but not make you invunerable from it). The point is that if you are exploiting ECM to maximum effect using boost mods and rigs then you SHOULD have a good chance to jam someone. But you will gimp you ship in terms of damage output. If you are going to do that then just fly a Caldari jamming ship.

Simple thing is they are support ships. They don't do heaps of damage. How many pvp'ers have heard of the single scorp 'raiding' the supply pipe. Never in my case. Vaga's are better, scorps are slow heavy lumbering hulks. But they have there uses.

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Instant fun.

---

Originally by: Lenaria

---

Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 07:26:26
ECM rigs & low slot modules on the ECM ships with ECM bonuses like Rook or Scorpion make the ECM the most unbalanced thing on the SiSi. Yes, its way worse than even Drake or Rokh. And its totally unfair in respect to other races EW.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Originally by: Malicious Wraith

---

Originally by: AsiaFury

---

there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.

---

This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else.

---

It's not over nerfed. And all the EW ships still have *PLENTY* of ECM strength when used with the ECM booster mods. One Blackbird with two booster mods jammed my Megathron about 90% of the time with two racial jammers. That seems pretty effective do me, don't you think?

---

I dont care what "That blackbird" did,

I care about statistics, actual numbers.

Even with "The mods' on, you are completely limiting the ships mentioned above.

Im asking for one thing:

"Reinstate ECM DEDICATED ships old strength"

---

I don't get it. What are you complaining about exactly? With the low slot mods the ships are just as effective as they currently are on Tranq. You saying that the ECM ships shouldn't need the low slot mods? Or that even with the low slot mods they arn't as effective as they are currently on Tranq?

Either way, it's exactly correct the way it currently is on Sisi. The low slot booster mods work great. There is nothing wrong with requiring the ECM ships to fit them to be effective. Any other questions?

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Please re-read my post. I specifically said that I'm **not** using boost mods, just ecm rigs, and that I'm not flying ECM specific ships (rook, blackbird, scorp), I'm flying *regular* combat ships fitted with ecm rigs which have just as much DPS as any regular ship on TQ would.

So let me be extremely clear: ***ECM IS JUST AS GOOD IN KALI AS IT IS IN TRANQ FOR REGULAR NORMAL COMBAT SHIPS. THAT IS TO SAY: WAY TOO GOD****ED OVER POWERED***.

Adding booster mods and using ECM on EWAR ships makes it even worse.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Once you install an ECM module (hypnos multispec lets say) and add in 3 ECM strength rigs (all t1 ships have 3 rig slots) and have some average ecm skills (ecm strength skill to L3 lets say) then you're looking at a multispec with a strength of about 4.8 or so.

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Once you install an ECM module (hypnos multispec lets say) and add in 3 ECM strength rigs (all t1 ships have 3 rig slots) and have some average ecm skills (ecm strength skill to L3 lets say) then you're looking at a multispec with a strength of about 4.8 or so.

---

Oh my god, you are so busted. "All t1 ships have 3 rig slots" not only proves you lie, it proves you've never even logged into sisi at all.

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

Originally by: murder one

---

ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.

---

That's interesting given that dreads aren't even allowed in FFA1. Wouldn't be the first time I'd seen you post something that cast doubts on whether you've actually even tried Kali or not, though.

---

Originally by: Statics

---

Originally by: murder one

---

Please re-read my post. I specifically said that I'm **not** using boost mods, just ecm rigs, and that I'm not flying ECM specific ships (rook, blackbird, scorp), I'm flying *regular* combat ships fitted with ecm rigs which have just as much DPS as any regular ship on TQ would.

So let me be extremely clear: ***ECM IS JUST AS GOOD IN KALI AS IT IS IN TRANQ FOR REGULAR NORMAL COMBAT SHIPS. THAT IS TO SAY: WAY TOO GOD****ED OVER POWERED***.

Adding booster mods and using ECM on EWAR ships makes it even worse.

---

Good thing ECM rigs are going to be easily manufactured, cheap, and widespread.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Did he say the dread was supposed to be in FFA1? I must have been ganked at least four times in BF1 and BF2 by players who are new to the test server. Maybe not everyone knows the rules? Maybe the Dread was there by request? Maybe it was a GM? Why are you so quick to condemn him? Maybe you're just making all the wrong assumptions?

---

Originally by: Risien Drogonne

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Did he say the dread was supposed to be in FFA1? I must have been ganked at least four times in BF1 and BF2 by players who are new to the test server. Maybe not everyone knows the rules? Maybe the Dread was there by request? Maybe it was a GM? Why are you so quick to condemn him? Maybe you're just making all the wrong assumptions?

---

Because I'm tired of his whining about EVERYTHING. I'm also tired of him making claims that are patently false.

---

Originally by: Zaphod Beblebrox2

---

I train to fly Caldari BS and buy a tier1 BS (Scorpian) and go up against another tier1 BS (Typhoon) and I go pop before I have done any real damage to his Armor. Yes I trained up all the support skills before getting into the Scorp and yes I did manage to Jam him and keep him jammed but with FOF's and Drones he still manages to out perform my damage and with a decent tank too.

The fight isn't even a close run thing so tell me again, why is my ship being nurfed?

---

Originally by: Zaphod Beblebrox2

---

I train to fly Caldari BS and buy a tier1 BS (Scorpian) and go up against another tier1 BS (Typhoon) and I go pop before I have done any real damage to his Armor. Yes I trained up all the support skills before getting into the Scorp and yes I did manage to Jam him and keep him jammed but with FOF's and Drones he still manages to out perform my damage and with a decent tank too.

The fight isn't even a close run thing so tell me again, why is my ship being nurfed?

---