Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 13:45:42

Originally by: Grimpak

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in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.

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Yes, but so are missle & rails.

The point is, either you could drones & blasters as one single racial concepts if you count missles & rails as one single concept or you count drones & blasters as 2 different concepts if you count rails & missiles as 2 different concepts.

The problem is that whatever version you choose, caldari have then 1 specialisation more than gallente. It's either "missles & rails & ECM vs drones & blasters" or "longrange weapons & ECM vs shortrange weapons".

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

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Originally by: Joran Dusyfe

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Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12
Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.

Just my opinion.

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Originally by: Kai Lae

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Originally by: Joran Dusyfe

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Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12
Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.

Just my opinion.

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Your opinion would be more valid if it was more informed. The new model has been selected but not completed yet, a drawing of it can be seen Here. Basically CCP won't stop public testing because the artists aren't done quite yet.

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Originally by: Attak

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Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage?

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Originally by: Tuxford

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In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright

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Originally by: MECTO

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Originally by: Attak

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Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage?

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i like this idea too btw. it will create a damn nice ship

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat

it should get mwd bonus, not rep

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Originally by: Zhull

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I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):

Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:

Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)

Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through

Megathron would be doing:

7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59

Rock would be doing:

8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2

5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.

Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.

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Originally by: Kalianyia

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Originally by: Zhull

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I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):

Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:

Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)

Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through

Megathron would be doing:

7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59

Rock would be doing:

8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2

5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.

Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.

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Zhull you forgot that the Megathron gets a 5% damage bonus per level. The Rokh does not. At Gallente BS V, that means the Megathron gets a 25% damage bonus.

Megathron
7 turrets * 1.25 (damage bonus) = 8.75 effective turrets

Rokh
8 turrets * 1 (no damage bonus) = 8 effective turrets

So the Thron will still out damage the Rokh.

However, the optimal bonus and resist bonus of the Rokh will make it utterly pwn in fleet engagements. So in that case overall the Rokh > Thron for fleet battles (at least at extreme range).

One problem with the Rokh is it has less Grid than the Thron, and so trying to fit 8x 425mm Railgun II's is not going to be fun. Im not saying its impossible (I havent tried yet), but it is definately going to be a much tighter fit than fitting 7x 425mm Railgun II's on the Thron that has more grid.

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Originally by: Attak

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Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage? It'll still use all it's cap trying to fire those 8 tach's, but it won't be quite so horribly cap gimped. It would still force people to choose between a high damage fleet ship and an uber tank, which imo is good.

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Originally by: Kalianyia

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The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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I would love if a total redesign would be made, but I think thats unlikely. By the way, why is there no communication with Tuxford and the others about this? I think its pretty important that the tier 3 really brings something new to every race.

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Originally by: Kalianyia

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat

it should get mwd bonus, not rep

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Hell no!

The 7.5% armor rep bonus is really nice.
Here are the numbers (w/ Armor Repair Systems V):
Normally:
LAR II: 800 armor every 11.25 seconds

With Hyperion Bonus(w/ Gallente BS V):
LAR II: 1100 armor every 11.25 seconds

If you mount two LAR II's:
Normally:
1600 armor every 11.25 seconds

Hyperion:
2200 armor every 11.25 seconds

The 7.5% armor rep bonus is HUGE. If you strip that away and give it a MWD bonus (say 10% reduced cap usage per level) the ship will go to utter crap. Using my Megathron most of the time I dont even need to use the MWD. When I do I use it at most two cycles. Two cycles doesnt hurt the cap too bad (at least nothing my cap injector cant handle).

Having the 7.5% armor rep bonus will be usefull the entire fight! And will increase survivabilty MUCH more than the extra cap you would have saved otherwise.

I think the Hyperion bonuses are great as they are. The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.

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Originally by: Nemain

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Edited by: Nemain on 31/10/2006 08:47:34
I would have liked to have seen the 3rd battleship for each race to have filled the 3rd racial role, much in the same the frigate and Cruiser equivilents do. I can see the reason for the reluctance to produce BS sized racial EW ships though. Unlike caldari, the other races EW specialities are served just as well by the cruiser/frig versions a they would be at BS level. Caldari were pretty much forced into the EW BS area as even when originally designed as a shield tanking rail boat the scorp was mostly used as an EW ship. However, appart from slots I do think that Scorp has 1 major advantage over the Blackbird, and that is BS level durability, and that is the reason why I personally think the 3rd racial BS for min, Gal and amarr should be EW based. Personally I'd go for

Hyperion

Same slot load out (or maybe 7/7/6) and speed/mass but the second bonus would be to Sensor dampners. That way you still have the Blaster boat (being able to kill a ships targetting range as you get into blaster range has to be a good thing), but now you also have the dual purpose fleet EW ship.

Maelstrom

Same slot layout again (or 7/7/6), but a TP bonus and damage bonus. So less potential DPS damage than a tempest, but far more accurate and damaging alpha strike as well as fleet suport EW.

Abaddon

A fair bit of an overhall on this one, I am still behind the drone/TD boat design personally as amarr don't need another fleet turret ship or tank. It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor. Give it a 6/6/8 slot layout, give it a weapon layout the same as the scorp (4 launchers 4 turrets, or 4 turrets, 2 launchers) a bonus to drones damage, Hp etc and a TD bonus. Now to stop the Domi pilot whines give it the same drone bay size as the Geddon. As in enough to hold 1 wave of Heavies, or at most a bay that can hold 1 wave of each size drone. The Domi then has the advantage of fielding multiple waves and types while the Abaddon can still do the same drone damage, but has less drone reserves. That gives the amarr a solo pvp BS (the other 2 are already fleet BS) and a fleet EW support ship.

With a little tinkering it seems a more balanced way of doing things to me, as well as giving each ship a more clearly defined role that still stick to racial doctrines.

Tho I'm probably wrong

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Originally by: Nemain

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It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor.

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Originally by: RoCkEt X

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POST: issue with hyperion grid.

I could be wrong but:

-The hyperion is a blaster ship
-Blasters use less grid than rails.
-you shouldnt fit rails to a ship they are not designed for.
-The megathron is a railboat.

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Originally by: AlexCA

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Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.

not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.

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