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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:16:00 -
[1]
Discuss here so we dont have to read 500000000 threads.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:19:00 -
[2]
now you are just being lazy
the maelstrom in its current state is a schizophrenic design at best
the bonuses are geared for ac's, while the attributes (like cargobay, mass, speed etc) say its definetely an artillery boat it has a bigger dmg potential than tempest but in reality it will rarly be able to deliver it
it feels and flies like a cyclone that doesnt know where its good at, it is again a try by the devs to give us a ship thats supposed to do both close and long range, while being good at none of it
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Paigan on 26/10/2006 10:25:05
Originally by: Mephysto Discuss here so we dont have to read 500000000 threads.
i dont see a sense in putting 20000000000 postings from 500000000 threads all together in ONE big thread.
People posting to the abaddon, being interrupted by rokh posts, being answered by mealstrom posts.
If you make a sticky with a flame to the customers at the beginning, then make one for each shiptype. -- This game is still in beta stage |
Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:22:00 -
[4]
As said before and prolly by hte dozens of bug reports, the Rokh has bugged turret graphics and will crash whenever it shoots or gets shot at. As such I haven't got any other comments about the ship other than thanks for giving us a good ship that looks bloody sweet. Going to have a lot of fun with it.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Blind Man
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:22:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 10:22:04 agreed with Tiuwaz about the Maelstrom and would like to add active tanking bonus for an artillery boat sucks
It's great flying Amarr, ain't it? |
Hansoloo
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:28:00 -
[6]
has anyone tested the new amarr BS sniping range, becouse I was getting ready to (befor the server went down)..
I was fitted for short range, with the the 100km targeting range, with the guns I was using (with out a sniping setup), I was hitting at 100km just fine for 200 damge per gun fitted with radios.
I would love to see someone with real sniping skills get a hold of her and really test her out.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:29:00 -
[7]
The Hyperion is nice. But, give it a little more agility and PG. Then it will be more than 5% better than the 50m cheaper Megathron, and people will use it.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:29:00 -
[8]
As for the Maelstrom, if those bonuses stay, a 7th midslot would be very nice. Even at the cost of a low if an additional slot would be too much to ask for. But look at the Cyclone, same bonuses, one more slot than the other BCs, but seems perfectly balanced. Same could work for the Mael. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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starship enginer
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:29:00 -
[9]
the apoc was pretty crap before in pvp compaired to the geddon, where it was slightly better was the alpha on sniping
so, now with the amarr tier 3 BS what is the apoc for? what is it ment to do? its got no place where the tier3 or geddon is not better!
suggestion: loose the 5% cap per level for 10% optimal range
also can we get another level of plates and extenders please
eg: 3200mm tungston, [2x HP of 1600mm] with 1.5k PG and 30 odd cpu [i think this is needed since we are seeing crusiers and BC with more than BS native HP
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Rin Eyre
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:31:00 -
[10]
Maelstrom looking too strange with such model, stats and so on. There is something it lacks. Or something that better be switched... something very small, but meaningful to get some streamlined beauty for big picture.
Yes, it can be nerfed on shield department a little... but please, decrease mass (take away shield HP/regen if you must). Just seeng how it turing makes me (and I think many other people) sad. Give it at least some edge to use with artillery...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 -
[11]
Its a mistake to let people discuss everything about the 4 new battleships/battlecruisers in one single thread. Why?
1) People want to discuss different things. Slot layouts, damage, tanking, bonuses, you name it. Chaos to do that for 4 ships in one thread.
2) People will never stop disagreeing with eachother. Signal to noise ratio will be very high when someone makes a stupid suggestion, and everybody else attacks it.
Just my opinion... I do understand your reasons though, but I dont think it will improve things, just make it worse.
Constructive critisism... :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: starship enginer the apoc was pretty crap before in pvp compaired to the geddon, where it was slightly better was the alpha on sniping
so, now with the amarr tier 3 BS what is the apoc for? what is it ment to do? its got no place where the tier3 or geddon is not better!
Its cheaper. The Abbadon is supposed to be better.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:39:00 -
[13]
I dunno, maybe we should get sub-forum channels for all major things (Tier3 BS, Tier2 BCs, whatever else there is) and then stickies in there for the individual items. Of course I don't know how easy that is to do with this forum, but with mine own it would be a matter of 30 secs... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:41:00 -
[14]
The Abbadon is supposed to be better, please make it better.
Including Drones its about the same DPS as a geddon (with a slightly better tank) and much worse cap.
Has the same grid and less CPU than the Maelstrom yet requires more grid for guns and it's an armour tanker.
and can't do better than quoting this:
Originally by: Toaster Oven
Finally got onto Sisi for some testing. Here are some numbers for those of you wondering about the cap issue
Relevant skills info Max gunnery, including Controlled Bursts 5 Amarr BS 5 Max cap skills Max armor tanking skills No implants
Testing scenario Undock from station with 100% cap, 4 cap booster 800s loaded, and another 12 in cargo. Measure time from initial firing till cap death (ie. one or modules inactivate due to insufficient cap). If using cap booster (1x Heavy Electrochemical), cap boosting begins almost immediately after firing commences. If using repairer, delay 10sec before activating. Results are average of 3 attempts.
Results
8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 21sec 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II with cap booster: 4min 21 sec, last cap booster consumed at 3min 53sec 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 1x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 58sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 2x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 7sec, 12 cap booster 800s remaining
8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 3sec 8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II with cap booster: 2min 6sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining
These numbers are the *absolute best* you can expect and tbh a bit unrealistic. There aren't too many fights where you start out with 100% cap and have no one NOSing you. In testing, you can expect closer to 2/3 those times in a normal PVP scenario both short and long range. Or less if you're fighting a NOS Domi Mad. I capped out almost every time when fighting another BS. The cap use is simply put beyond ridiculous.
Devs, I hope you reconsider and turn the Abbadon into something useful. As it stands, it's simply a joke and you should be ashamed for even releasing it. Gimme a ship where I can use both bonuses at the same time, like every other ship in the game
/signed
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:53:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:59:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
* Shield boost bonus doesnt work in fleets where you take focused fire very quickly. Resistance bonuses are obviously better here, even if the Rohk has them too, because it doesnt mean that one of the medium slots have to be a shield booster to take advantage of its bonus. Also resists use no cap and is always active. It also allows for better passive tanking.
The problems as a autocannon platform
* Its a bit too slow. I feel the dps is pretty good, but only up close. One medium slot will automaticly be used with MWD, but the large mass and low base speed will make it difficult to reach the target to do its job.
The problems as a mission runner
* Not better than the Raven, but this is pretty much the case for every other ship out there. So except the fairly low artillery dps, it will be OK at missions. Here the rof bonus is more useful than a DMG bonus, and also the shield boost bonus is pretty good.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
El Yatta
Caldari Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:59:00 -
[17]
The hyperion is similarly confused to the maelstrom between its bonuses and its stats. The original devblog stated that it was going to be a light, fast ship able to get into gank range faster - a versatile blaster platform. Im not going to complain that it is slower than a tempest (dont want to obsolete the pest) but I am going to complain that this idea doesnt fit with a tanking bonus. Its got the stats to match the idea as well, insufficient grid to fit a dual rep tank and still have gank potential. This is REALLY inconsitent with a rep amount bonus.
Frankly, the quick, blaster-focussed boat should be dashing into close range fast with Neutron IIs and just a few 1600s, DCU and 3x mag stabs (like the most popular blasterthron fits atm) and the slower, older boat, with another LOW SLOT, (which can also choose rails) should be fitting a dual rep tank and either ion IIs or electron IIs and nos. The way to encourage this is to either give the mega the hype's rep bonus (unpopular!) or simply do away with it all together, give the hype more grid and a bonus that compensates for changed null (falloff).
If the rep bonus stays, the hyperion needs SERIOUS fitting improvements, as the 8th turret means jack vs mega if you have to fit electrons simply to get use out of you rep bonus.
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Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
/signed
Some friends of me said almost the same thing when the first news abut the tier3 BS came out.
In every race there's a ewar frig - cruiser (and BS only for caldari)
Rokh is fine because it fills the missing turret gap.
What's missing at the other races is a drone/tracking disrupter ship for amarr, a dampener ship for gallente and ... whatever (:-P) ... for minnies. -- This game is still in beta stage |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:07:00 -
[19]
YES to a big arbitrator.
Slots: 7/6/6, 4 turret, 3 launcher Drone bay: 175m¦ or 200m¦ (5 heavy, 5 medium and optional 5 light)
Bonus1: 10% per level for tracking disruptor optimal range Bonus2a: 10% drone hp/dmg per level Bonus2b: 5% armor resists per level
(This means either 2a or 2b. I'd prefer 2a but if that comes to close to the domi, 2b would be fine, too.)
Grid and cpu accordingly so stuff fits on it. Good armor, good sensor strength, long targeting range. Slow, big sig radius.
Sooo yea.. when could we get this?
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:19:00 -
[20]
The Abaddon needs a redesign to actually provide a new role for it and make it something other than a better version of the two already existing amarr battleships.
yes i know the 8 turrets + laser rof is quiet powerful but its also nothing new. all it does is provide a new toy for those with enough cash to afford a little increase in power over the gedon/apoc. when it comes to deciding which of the amarr battleships you want to use for pvp it comes down to personal preference rather than what role you would like to fill.
also: this problem was already apparent when the abaddons bonuses were first announced 2+ months ago and we saw the same complaints about it that we see now. as there has been no change to the design and not even some communication with the players as to why it was designed this way we can only conclude that tux (or whoever is in charge of designing it) has decided to ignore the players in this regard. as such i (and propably a few others as well) would really appreciate it if some dev (preferably the one who "designed" the ship) could step forward and explain what this ship is supposed to do and how it is something more than just a better version of the already exsiting amarrian battleships.
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Panta Rei
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mysterlee The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
/signed
My sentiments exactly.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:48:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:48:53 They wont change the battleships now, but its amazing that they could do such a awesome job on the battlecruisers, but failed to do the same for battleships.
If they want to make better tier 3's, they should actually look at the battlecruisers they just created and work from there, for every race except Caldari. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:02:00 -
[23]
Abaddon Capacitor is a real issue. Really needs those capacitor rigs. Possible fix might be to boost capacitor batteries or something.
Rokh It's fine. I mean, over all range on battleships is silly, but as far as a ranged battleship goes, this is a fine ship.
Hyperion We already got a blaster ship. Either the Hype or the Megathron is going to be the better. If you insist on having a "tanking" bonus on a blaster ship, it's much better off with an armour amount bonus. I'd rather the ship got changed so we didn't have TWO blaster battleships, which is counter productive.
Maelstrom This was introduced as a fleet ship. As a concept it's fine, but it's lacking in one of the bonuses - the hated shield boost amount bonus. If it's changed to a shield capacity amount bonus, the Maelstrom will actually see increased survival in fleet combat since both initial hit point buffer is increased, and in that shield extenders become better.
Related Any thoughts given into boosting the Controlled Burst skill now that combats have taken a turn for the longer? Gallente and Amarr ships are already aching for better capacitor control skills. - What am I listening to? |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:02:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Sniser on 26/10/2006 12:04:26 abaddon and maelstorm have the same powergrid while pulses and beams need more powergrid than AutoCannons and Artillery. So abaddon will help if their cap or cap recharge were increased a bit. Cap goes down too fast
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Lonli Lonki
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
yeah
From myself -Rokh - really good ship which comlete caldari ships as it should be (merlin-moa-ferox?(change me on gunboat >_<)-Rokh [alittle offtopic] Myrmidion also complete gally dron ships Imicus(oh cmon it`s a dron boat =))-Vexor-Myrmidion-Dominix other ones are weird and i think they need few movements to side to become Family
I dont like too much tanking bonuses (except neutral). I mean giv us more freedom to choose what to tank, caldari and amar was always "linked" to type of tanking, Gallente and Minmatar always was more "free" here. So A. go as tradition B. go on total reverse =)
For gallente E-WAR BS, they miss it and make this BS maybe possible to fight and tanking on shield (2nd BS with a lot med slots) minnie also dont have E-WAR BS but i dunno what it should be.... Painter bonus? =) or something like " All hostile ships within target range of ships gets 5% signature per ur lvl of BS" =) Take Maelstrom and a Tempest one make a cannonboat other AC. Also maybe such formula 1. E-war + artillery/Rails 2. Tank+autocannons/blasters
SPECIAL BONUS: i had hope what tier3 BS will be last thing we miss now... - a something equal to raven effience on missionrunning, i`m bored to fly raven, i want agentrunners boat #2
p.s. does it possible to read me? =)
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:06:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 12:06:26 The Problem with taking the tier2 battlecruisers as templates is that they are all small versions of the existing battleships. So going from there would lead to... nothing new.
The EW approach seems to be a much better idea. Big Arbi for Amarr, Bit Celestis for Gallente, Scorp is the big Blackbird so Caldari gets a big Moa which is fine, and Minmatar get a big Bellicose. Err, wait, no. Minmatar get... Something. A big cyclone as 8/7/5 shieldtanking AC boat with current bonuses if I was asked, but anything goes. just make it consistent. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:14:00 -
[27]
About abaddon:
It needs to get back in drawing board. In meantime as temporary fix, change rof bonus to energy turret cap use bonus. It won't be perfect, but atleast it will be usable and because of bigger grid it can be better sniper in fleets then apoc. Also it won't turn into super geddon because it would be lacking rof bonus. I am sure that no one would object this change as amarr would be giving dps away in order to get more lasting cap.
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Idara
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:21:00 -
[28]
My thoughts
Summary: The new ones are trying to fill roles that are already filled. Either change them (easiest) or change every other BS for that race into something else to accommodate it. ---
Go! Go! Go pointless Tier 3s! |
Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:24:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ishina Fel on 26/10/2006 12:25:26
Originally by: Mysterlee The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
I disagree. 7x 125% is 875%, versus the Rokh's 800%; in essence, the Megathron still "almost has an extra turret" - all while eating less cap. Additionally, you are forgetting that the Megathron has a tracking bonus, so it will produce a higher hit quality at equal range. The Megathron also has more powergrid, which is quite important when trying to fit a full compliment of large railguns (15500 base for 7 rails versus 15000 base for 8 rails). A Megathron can also field 5 heavy drones (2 for the Rokh) to support it if the encounter is under 50km. I'd say that balances pretty well against the ability to switch to a higher damage charge type, and a tanking bonus.
In fact, I think that the Rokh is perfectly fine as it is. It has its limits (very poor grid, smallest dronebay of all battleships, largest sig of all battleships, slowest of all battleships together with one other), but it fills its role well and offers a slightly different combat style than compareable ships. If any ships need nerfs or boosts, it's the three others (and the BCs, but that's for another thread).
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Lonli Lonki
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 12:06:26 A big cyclone as 8/7/5 shieldtanking AC boat with current bonuses
good idea.
actually minmatar almost got raven equal ship - Typhoon BUT ATM is it more like dominix (a little bit worst). Ship which will be good alternative to raven : 8 hi-slots 4 missle 4 gun OR 7 losts 5 missle slots 4 /3 gun slots 7 med-slots 4 low-slots OR 5 slots with bosunuses 7.5%/5% to Painter and 5% to missle ROF 6 slots for good shield tanking 7th for powered painter which compensate 4 missle bays, 4 guns + good dronebay compensate 5% to missle damage and again 5th,6th bay.
in total we got minmatar EW ship which is good in missions/ratting too
peeps wa u thing about it?
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El'hith
Gallente The Phoenix Mercenarys
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:14:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
/Signed (in blood) ~~~Check my bio in game for what me and my corp can do for you!~~~ |
Philip Sterling
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:32:00 -
[32]
I realise that fleet battles are only one aspect of pvp and eve, but that's where i think most of people's issues lie with the new battleships. Personally, i think the tier 3 ships are pretty well ballanced except for a few relatively minor things. A. Abbadon needs increased capacitor capacity. B. The hyperion needs slightly more power grid. As far as fleet setups go, we may not see many changes. The abbadon is only a hair better than the geddon. basically, it will maybe stand a chance of warping out if it's called primary. Minmitar pilots will probably still fly tempests, but if they switch to the maelstrom, it won't be much of an upgrade. Gallente pilots will still fly the megathron for the long range fleets. The ship that's really going to change things is the Rokh. Currently, most long range BS fleets do not include pilots that can't fit T2 guns. they simply wouldn't have the range. Any BS you kill in one of these battles will cost a good deal to replace. With the rokh, we now have a tech 1, fully insurable ship that anyone will be able to train for in days, that will be able to join long range fleet battles with a fully tech 1 setup and still play at the 150-180k range. Every new player will be told to train caldari ships. they can fit out a torp raven after only a few weeks of playing the game and have an easy time ratting and making isk in 0.0. then they can take an extra 4-5 days to train gunnery 5 and have a ship that's arguably the best ship in the game for long range fleet battles. I'm even considering fitting out a rokh with T1 guns myself so that when i'm called primary I won't lose a penny. War in eve is all about who can maintain their expenses, and the rokh is going to make it very easy.
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Swamp Ziro
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:42:00 -
[33]
Maelstrom Bonus Idea :
*Numbers are obviously exagerrated for better understanding*
Bonus 1 : 50% PENALTY to ROF per level. (Yes, PENALTY, as in, longer time between shots)
Bonus 2 : xx% Bonus to weapon damage. (appropriate for dps to remain constant despite the rof penalty)
End result:
-DPS remains CONSTANT throught the BS skill levels -ROF is gradually getting slower and slower up to 250% slower.
So, at 500 dps, and possibly around 40 secs between shots (exagerrated example) we would be looking at a 20k alpha strike.
So, what do you think? Ofcourse, numbers are exagerrated.
(Btw this is the fourth time i'm saying that numbers are exagerrated, so help me god if you come here and say "Omg 50%!?!?! LOLO"
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Iyanah
Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
I've not had the chance to test yet, but i have read alot of the comments on the forums, and from what i've seen, I tend to agree with this post, the new ships don't seem to have a specific purpose, or role to fill, whereas the older ships, and the new battlecruisers seem to slot in nicely with their bretheren.
but then, this is what testing is all about - finding bugs, but also finding potential issues and viewing the wider effects of new content on the gaming environment. ========================================== Iy |
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:51:00 -
[35]
Abaddon is useless, it tries to do what the Apoc does or the Geddon does but it suck and fail miserably at both. Give it a role, or make it either uber gank/tank. 5% dmg and 10% cap reduction guns would do the trick I think, but that woulda made the geddon useless. Better off giving it a role, yeah. Drone and Tracking Disruptor bonuses, one more mid, one less highslot. 7/5/7 ftw. MWD/Scram/Web and 2 Tracking Disruptors ? :P
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Helmut 314
Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:00:00 -
[36]
Why not use the Maelstrom as a platform focused on 1200mm arties instead ? Make the ROF bonus 10%, cut the grid a bit since were talking about a shield tanker here and leave just enough to fit 8 1200:s. and a semi-decent tank.
________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Drake Mezcal
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:02:00 -
[37]
To be honest, and i dont know if any1 else agrees, but i totally disagree with putting a shield boost bonus on the Minmatar tier 3.
If u want it to tank, give it a armor bonus, or even no defence bonus at all.
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Freakdevil
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:06:00 -
[38]
I used a Hyperion against a Megathron last night.
It did ok but not great but thats partially my fault for a crappy setup and not killing his heavys first when I had him jammed (2hrs sleep 4TL). Ship is decent and drone bay isnt a factor, but I am confused why we have another Blaster boat or maybe Mega was never suppose to be one?
Once Singularity is more stable I will test it extensively as Blaster boats are my fav BS.
Tip: Seems you cannot blow up the ship without risking being stuck (cannot eject or warp) |
Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:06:00 -
[39]
There's extensive discussion of possible replacements for the Maelstrom's boost bonus in this thread. One proposal that received widespread (but not unanimous) support would be to change the bonus to +10% shield hitpoints per level.
The core of the issue is that boosting:
-requires a mid slot -requires time
In fleet battles, you cannot afford either. Fleet ships need sensor boosters and tracking comps to do their job; they should not have to use a valuable slot to access their ship bonus. (Especially so since a resist-bonus ship gets its bonus "free" with no special equipment required.)
As far as the time factor goes: your hitpoint buffer is what keeps you alive in fleets, not your boost rate. Your ship is either in warp or in wreckage before you boost more than 2-3 cycles, and in those 2-3 cycles the boost bonus is not providing a meaningful benefit in terms of total hitpoints gained. Boost bonuses only help when you are taking extended moderate-dps damage where you are boosting over a fairly long duration, which is not what happens in fleet standoffs.
So, if the role for the ship is still intended to be a toughened fleet sniper, the bonus absolutely must be changed to something appropriate for that role: either shield resists, shield hits, or some other form of passive survivability buffer.
On the other hand, the bonuses for the ship are excellently designed for a closerange autocannon boat, so if you're committed to the shield boost bonus, reduce the ship's mass and let it go head to head with the Hyperion.
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Melamori
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:23:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Swamp Ziro Maelstrom Bonus Idea :
*Numbers are obviously exagerrated for better understanding*
Bonus 1 : 50% PENALTY to ROF per level. (Yes, PENALTY, as in, longer time between shots)
Bonus 2 : xx% Bonus to weapon damage. (appropriate for dps to remain constant despite the rof penalty)
End result:
-DPS remains CONSTANT throught the BS skill levels -ROF is gradually getting slower and slower up to 250% slower.
So, at 500 dps, and possibly around 40 secs between shots (exagerrated example) we would be looking at a 20k alpha strike.
So, what do you think? Ofcourse, numbers are exagerrated.
(Btw this is the fourth time i'm saying that numbers are exagerrated, so help me god if you come here and say "Omg 50%!?!?! LOLO"
mwahahaha got ur idea fat destroyer =) actually this should be extra ship class BS sized ship or near 700 sig semi-capital, which have -500% ROF abd +500% damage, like a single shoot gun or walking gun. it lock, shoot once and warp out =) i belive a lot of folovers will be of such ship class, but ganking on gates will be hard... well it need penalty to not be used by pirates in empire ( maybe can shoot only on war opponents?
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Grinkur
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:26:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Grinkur on 26/10/2006 14:27:31
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
An Abaddon with those stats would be overpowered. Imagine a dominix with one mor mid for more EW and missile hardpoints.
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Grinkur
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:30:00 -
[42]
The hyperion right now is a decent blasterboat. It does less dmg than the Mega but tanks a lot better. It is more vulnerable to NOS (due to the lack of an extra high slot) but has a spare mid.
In general if you compare net dmg (Damage you do to your oponent in excess of its repair capacity vs Damage you take) it is at pair with the Mega.
However due to its limited power grid and very very tight cpu it has very little room for alternative setups. Even 5 or 10 more CPU would help a lot.
Also, if you unnerf the targeting range it could be a good sniper. The Megathron would still be an excellent all out combat battleship, plus it is cheaper, so i don't think that unnerfing the targeting range in the hyperion would hurt the Mega.
Right now it has only one or 2 usefull setups (electron blasters or ion blasters) wereas most other battleships can fit long range or short range guns.
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ElweSingollo
Starlancers
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hansoloo has anyone tested the new amarr BS sniping range, becouse I was getting ready to (befor the server went down)..
I was fitted for short range, with the the 100km targeting range, with the guns I was using (with out a sniping setup), I was hitting at 100km just fine for 200 damge per gun fitted with radios.
I would love to see someone with real sniping skills get a hold of her and really test her out.
161k optimal with a snipe setup on the Abbadon full rack of Tach 2's Aurora Ammo... gleam optimal of something stupid like 25k (oh thats not with max support skills but I have the 5% bonus to optimal at lvl 5).
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Swamp Ziro
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Melamori
Originally by: Swamp Ziro Maelstrom Bonus Idea :
*Numbers are obviously exagerrated for better understanding*
Bonus 1 : 50% PENALTY to ROF per level. (Yes, PENALTY, as in, longer time between shots)
Bonus 2 : xx% Bonus to weapon damage. (appropriate for dps to remain constant despite the rof penalty)
End result:
-DPS remains CONSTANT throught the BS skill levels -ROF is gradually getting slower and slower up to 250% slower.
So, at 500 dps, and possibly around 40 secs between shots (exagerrated example) we would be looking at a 20k alpha strike.
So, what do you think? Ofcourse, numbers are exagerrated.
(Btw this is the fourth time i'm saying that numbers are exagerrated, so help me god if you come here and say "Omg 50%!?!?! LOLO"
mwahahaha got ur idea fat destroyer =) actually this should be extra ship class BS sized ship or near 700 sig semi-capital, which have -500% ROF abd +500% damage, like a single shoot gun or walking gun. it lock, shoot once and warp out =) i belive a lot of folovers will be of such ship class, but ganking on gates will be hard... well it need penalty to not be used by pirates in empire ( maybe can shoot only on war opponents?
Yes, something like that, minus the destroyer vulnerabilities =)
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Rezerwowy Pies
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:38:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ishina Fel The Megathron also has more powergrid, which is quite important when trying to fit a full complement of large railguns (15500 base for 7 rails versus 15000 base for 8 rails).
sure, but you should remember that for example Heavy Armor Rep T2 for Megathron needs 2300 powergrid, but XL Shield Booster for Rokh need ONLY 550 pg.
Originally by: Ishina Fel A Megathron can also field 5 heavy drones (2 for the Rokh) to support it if the encounter is under 50km.
Rokh have 10200\8400 shield\armor, Megathron have 4969\5313 shield\armor. Any other brilliant ideas?? -- Why some admins can't do that
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FawKa
Gallente Old Farts The Phantom Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:39:00 -
[46]
Well...
Hype needs 5% blaster dmg instead of normal 5% hybrid Rokh needs 10% railgun range instead of generel hybrid bonus - both because of role and because the Rokh will be a better blaster ship than the real blastership as it is now.
Hype needs more dronebay, more speed and I bet more agility. Looks a bit screwd powergrid wise to, tbh and I would rather have a lowslot instead of the last med slot. In fact, it looks a bit like a gigantic deimos with the same issues. Cant fit much, no real dronebay and a need for speed. From my vision the Hype isnt a blastership before the Rokh get a real role based bonus to rails. Wont happen? :)
-
Amarr tier 3 needs an cap bonus as they cant have much running more than 1 min.
Minmatar seems psycho. But its okay, I dont think its broken - the other ones are.
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Grinkur
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:40:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Grinkur on 26/10/2006 14:41:21
Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies
Originally by: Ishina Fel The Megathron also has more powergrid, which is quite important when trying to fit a full complement of large railguns (15500 base for 7 rails versus 15000 base for 8 rails).
sure, but you should remember that for example Heavy Armor Rep T2 for Megathron needs 2300 powergrid, but XL Shield Booster for Rokh need ONLY 550 pg.
Originally by: Ishina Fel A Megathron can also field 5 heavy drones (2 for the Rokh) to support it if the encounter is under 50km.
Rokh have 10200\8400 shield\armor, Megathron have 4969\5313 shield\armor. Any other brilliant ideas??
XL Shield Booster 2 + SBA > 2 x Large Armor reparier 2, so it is 551MW vs more than 4600.
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Grinkur
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:40:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies
Originally by: Ishina Fel The Megathron also has more powergrid, which is quite important when trying to fit a full complement of large railguns (15500 base for 7 rails versus 15000 base for 8 rails).
sure, but you should remember that for example Heavy Armor Rep T2 for Megathron needs 2300 powergrid, but XL Shield Booster for Rokh need ONLY 550 pg.
Originally by: Ishina Fel A Megathron can also field 5 heavy drones (2 for the Rokh) to support it if the encounter is under 50km.
Rokh have 10200\8400 shield\armor, Megathron have 4969\5313 shield\armor. Any other brilliant ideas??
XL Shield Booster 2 > 2 x Large Armor reparier 2, so it is 550MW vs more than 4600.
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Dreamdancer
Minmatar Ceryshen Interglobal Technologies Vanu Space Command
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:41:00 -
[49]
Personally I think the new battleships should have filled positions not already taken.
The Caldari one did just that. The other 3? Well to be honest they are a waste of pixels.
Varing opinions on what each race needs, but certainly not another laser ship for the Amarr, a projectile gunboat for the Minmatar or a blaster ship for the Gallente.
The Raven is generally consider one of the best mission running ships in the game. As it can be setup to tank well and just switch out the missiles being used to match the damage type needed for the mission.
Every race has ships that use missiles but not to the extent the Raven does. Why force Min, Gall or Amarr to train in Caldari? Give them each a boat setup to match or counter the Raven. Follows the storyline easy enough. "Seeing the effectiveness of the Raven other races were quick to develop their own versions"
My .02 ISK
We are recruiting! |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:46:00 -
[50]
I never like these giant arbitrator ideas. 200m3 dronebay? Those heavys would be popped instantly and then you're left with some mediums and lights, the dominix needs it's dronebay to prevent people from targeting its drones - the arbibaddon would need that too.
But if the ship is to be changed (and it looks like it is) I'd like to see it get a 10% nos bonus like the Bhaalgorn and a classic 10% cap reduction on lasers - if you want a EW boat then you must realize that tracking disruptors aren't really hot on a bs vs bs scale but a nosferatu is always a pain in the ass.
BTW: change the apocs crap cap bonus to a resist or an optimal one. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The maelstrom should become a fast and agile armour tanking autocannon ship. 8-5-6 slot layout with 8 turret hardpoints, 5% large projectile damage and 7.5% armour rep amount per level. The Tempest should also be switched to an 8-6-5 slot layout to make it a shield tanking artillery ship.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
The Rokh could also do with losing a turret hardpoint, as it is its damage output comes to close to the Megathron when using rails yet it has 50% more range allowing it to use higher damage ammo than the Megathron thus outdamaging it at equal range.
Yes, indeed! Agreed very heartily on Abaddon, Maelstrom and Hyperion!
Although the Abaddon could actually perform well with -10% cap use and 8 turret hardpoints, so there's no real need to limit it's tirretyness. And the Hyperion'd not need a (more) limited grid (than currently) if you reduce it's hardpoints thus.
I'd love to be primary in that Hyperion
As for the Rokh, I really think it's a bit early to say whether it needs it's hardpoints cut. It does 8 hybrid turret damage versus the Megathron's 8.75. It's 5% shield resistance bonus is what truely makes it good, however. For this it pays with worse agility and powergrid. Problem is we'll need some fleet battles to properly evaluate the Rokh, and SiSi just don't allow for those. - What am I listening to? |
MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:12:00 -
[52]
make minm tier3 - ac boat
give gall tier3 more grid
rokh w/o changes - its good
abaddon - needs some real rethinking.. its not even in alpha stage
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Almarez
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:16:00 -
[53]
I agree with the Abaddon not being a very useful ship, albeit very cool looking. I think the ship would be very good if the rof bonus were changed to a damage bonus. The reason I say this is because it would give you the ability to cause the damage of a Armageddon with the tank ability of an Apoc. So I see it as a more viable 1v1 pvper with these changes. As it stands now I think it will be like the Armageddon with possibly slightly better tanking abilities...maybe. Why not give it a NOS range bonus like the Curse...that along with ROF or damage bonus (preferably damage) would make it an awesome ship.
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Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
The problems as a autocannon platform
* Its a bit too slow. I feel the dps is pretty good, but only up close. One medium slot will automaticly be used with MWD, but the large mass and low base speed will make it difficult to reach the target to do its job.
The problems as a mission runner
* Not better than the Raven, but this is pretty much the case for every other ship out there. So except the fairly low artillery dps, it will be OK at missions. Here the rof bonus is more useful than a DMG bonus, and also the shield boost bonus is pretty good.
Take a look at the mega thats been here for 3 years and, exact same problems anyone?
Euro 0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment |
MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Almarez Why not give it a NOS range bonus like the Curse...that along with ROF or damage bonus (preferably damage) would make it an awesome ship.
heavy nosf with boni = this are EXXTREEEMEEEE
ehm, i mean - NO
maybe just give a abaddon 5% Dmg to Proj. weapons?
and subsc like: Amarr Maked Ultimate Close Range Tanking Uber Ship to destroy minmatar heretics one and for all times?
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Jason Thorn
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:30:00 -
[56]
In my opinion the main problem about tier 3 amarr bs it's not the amarr bs by itself, but the insane cap usage of every kind of laser without any SIGNIFICANT advantage.
To say it in a better way: once the bonus of cap usage was indirectly a bonus to damage as laser did more damage than other weapons but drain more cap. Train amarr skills and you'll have a damage bonus with good cap consuption. (seems an indirect version of gallente bonus) Then tux nerfed frequency cristals to make the pulse laser make nearly the same damage of other weapons without considering every aspect of the thing.
Before i get flames: yes, i know i don't have ammo usage, good tracking and so on, but i'm not talking about comparing it with other guns, i'm just looking at pure numbers and while they show some minor advantages (but even minor disavantages like only em end therm damage) they do not show any major advantage to balance the major drawback of great cap usage
Fix them and you'll get a damn fine abaddon too.
/me run and gets a flamesuit.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:30:00 -
[57]
2 pointers:
1. Don't balance ships around a concept that is scheduled for a fix/nerf (i.e. don't balance ships around nosferatus) 2. The Maelstrom is almost 12 kilotons heavier than the Megathron or Tempest. - What am I listening to? |
Roloco
Gallente Anonymity Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:32:00 -
[58]
I agree with most of the people on here about the Abbadon, I mean the Amarr already have multiple heavy armored multi turreted battleships, ones good at slugging it out (Armageddon) and the other is a more tactical armor tank (Apocalypse), so with these two being so close already whatÆs one more in between? Just another boring waste.... the amarr are in desperate need of some diversity. Amarr have been known to "copy" other races ships and try to emulate them as good as they can, kinda like the Arbitrator. Personally I think it would best if it was a drone ship, though not as good as the Domi (say at least about 250m3 drone space?) but with a bit more fire power with its 8 turrets, (and no it doesnÆt need to be able to fit 8 tachys b/c that would just be another arma or apoc) armor, and tanking ability, like a level 3 amarr battleship should have and I think that should diversify it more. Just think of how the Amarr would have built it if they tried to copy a Dom the amarrian way in a lvl3 Bship (just like they did with the arbitrator) of course slot load out would have to be tinkered with... _______________________________ What was that? |
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mysterlee
Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
...........
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
Originally by: Grinkur
An Abaddon with those stats would be overpowered. Imagine a dominix with one mor mid for more EW and missile hardpoints.
I kinda agree, why on earth some people wants to put missile hardpoints on Amarr T1 ships surprises me 200m3 dronebay is perhaps a bit excessive, cause we shouldn't be better in drones than Gallente. 175m3 should be plenty, I'll even be satisfied with 150m3. Since our Arbi already has the 10% dmg hp tracking I don't mind giving the new BS that bonus. The secound bonus, should be ewar. Our ewar is Tracking Disruptors, so 10% to optimal, falloff, and efficienty should do.
The Abaddon today is 8/4/7
I would suggest either a 7/5/7 slot layout or 8/5/6. Eventually, if we should really get some love(Very unlikely), we would get a 6/6/7 or 7/6/6 layout. I do however not see it happen but 5 mids would satisfy me :P (I think we _do_ need 5 mids for this to be a drone/e-w ship)
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:51:00 -
[60]
As long as the Abaddon doesn't get a drone damage bonus, it can have as much drone bay as it pleases - it's not going to threaten the Dominix' position as top drone using battleship. - What am I listening to? |
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:09:00 -
[61]
My post actualy not about taer 3 BSs... about all ammarians ships in Kali. How you think, whi all ammarians ship have bonus 10% reduction cap use? Because Lasers UBERWEAPON? I do not think so. All ships recive +50% hp boost hardners and plates also boosted. In this case ammarians ships a face the challenge of cap shortage. I doubt that Tachyon Beam II make mutch greater DPS than 1400 II, so why Lasers fit mutch harder than 1400 why they spend awesome amount of cpa per shot? Ah.. also they have perfect dmg type - EM Abbadon hawe a great bonuses, i like it , but i less and less like lasers... They need a serious rethinking in kali.
P.S. Sorry for my eanglish
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Catga Coltrain
Gallente New Dawn Rising The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:10:00 -
[62]
Sigh... the mega is not a blaster boat by design.
Here take a look: The Hyperion "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:14:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Catga Coltrain Sigh... the mega is not a blaster boat by design.
Here take a look: The Hyperion
I'm contemplating insulting you or educating you. Think I'd satisfy myself with a simple "educate yourself".
It is merely accidental that the Megathron also happens to be fairly competent with railguns. - What am I listening to? |
Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:19:00 -
[64]
since apparently it is better to go here, I decided to post what I and Serapis Aote posted in this thread here.
now what does he say?
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 13:40:09
I think think they should put some focus into the 3 minmatar battleships.
Tempest - armor tanked, long range artillery ship. 140 m/s. Typhoon - armor tanked, close range low-tier autocannon/missiles ship. 150 m/s. Maelstrom - shield tanked, speedy, high-tier autocannon ship (bigger Cyclone) 160 m/s
But nobody listens to me. The Maelstrom even LOOKS speedy, but... its not.
Posted it here, because it was stuck in an thread full of spam.
I think this is a good idea.
I would switch the speeds of the Mael and the phoon though, and make the Mael have better agility, but the phoon have a higher base speed.
I would add a 7th turret slot to the tempest to help it compete with the caldari tier 3 in fleets.
I would change the Mael ROF bonus to damage, or change projectile ammo size. Because with the ROF bonus and ACs, that is going to be a ton of ammo.
good changes, I must admit.. however:
Originally by: Grimpak or:
typhoon -> close range slugger tempest -> all-round ship proficient in AC's OR arties (would tune up agility of it to compensate). Kinda like a all-round striker that can go long range or short range hit-n-run. maelstrom -> bigass artillery platform that deals alpha strike damage second to none (bonuses should be changed to reflect this however).
edit: not saying your proposal is not good. It is good.
but then you ask: what about the tempest? won't he be obsolete with your changes, grimpak?
it might become obsolete if we don't take in account that:
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Serapis Aote not bad...the only problem i have with it, is what is going to become of the tempest.
but why do that to the tempest.
In your scenario the only reason to choose a tempest in the future would be too low SP to fully use the power of a phoon.
If you want close in pwnage = phoon If you want fleet artillery pwnage = Mael If you want an expensive ship that is outperformed by the two other bs = tempest.
The all around ship sounds good in theory but in reality it just ends up being subpar in all categories.
in the artillery case, the tempest would still be a better DoT machine than the maelstrom.
the mael would have better alpha, true, but the tempest would be able to outdamage it in the long run. plus, in case of fleet, loosing 6 T2 1400's is more cheaper than loosing 8 1400's.
going short range, the tempest would have a bigger versatility in terms of more meds than the typhoon, while basing it's firepower in a single weapon system. The typhoon would be faster and deal a bigger punch, true, but the tempest would be a better gunship with room for some sort of Ewar.
so that's what I mean by versatility. Typhoon gets his place as a solid close-range killer, but not as versatile and focussed as the tempest, while the maelstrom gets the ability to inflict THE alpha-strike, but unable to sustain good DoT in the long run with a big sig and being a ****** whale, unlike the tempest.
so what did I mean with this?
by boosting agility in the tempest the ship will become a versatile ship able to:
a) become a good AC boat that dishes turret based damage, instead of the typhoon, wich uses a multitude of weapon systems, and a bit more versatility, in form of a 5th med.
b) become an agile sniper that, altho doesn't have the same alpha strike as the maelstrom (with damage bonus instead RoF one), it has better DoT, more maneuverability, and cheaper to fit than the mael.
the new role of the tempest? versatile and agile gunship that can go hit-n-run whether is short range or long range.
cont... -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:21:00 -
[65]
but in a more general way, applied to all races tier3 BS'es:
putting these ingame with the current stats, bar the Rohk will make some BS'es obsolete.
Solution? Do some mild changes to the other race's BS'es, xcept amarr, where I would give more cap to the ship, and transform the apoc into something more... appealing. -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:02:00 -
[66]
just would like to add that its completely silly and unproductive to talk about all 4 BS in 1 thread, you wont get a discussion going that way
it only raises the assumption that you dont really care what we gonna say about it and you just want it in 1 space so it doesnt clutter the rest of the forum
that said:
remove shield boost bonus from mael and give it a shield hitpoint bonus instead, plz thanks
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Tareen Kashaar
eXin Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tiuwaz it only raises the assumption that you dont really care what we gonna say about it and you just want it in 1 space so it doesnt clutter the rest of the forum
Or maybe they want it all in one place to make gathering opinions easier. Or maybe tons of threads are just annoying :P
That said: Abbadon as Amarr EW boat would absolutely rule. No need for just another ganka/tanka... our ships are boring enough as it is, and there are some people who don't feel like training for large t2 guns but would still love to be able to be effective in a bs in fleets, you know. Diversity 4tw!
You would make me (and supposedly many others *cough*) very happy if you at least considered that idea. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:33:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Serapis Aote on 26/10/2006 17:35:58 Edited by: Serapis Aote on 26/10/2006 17:34:31 Edit: Thanks for posting my post Grim, but those are Jim's ideas not mine. Also i think it is actually a good idea to put it all here...it may be a ridiculously long post, but the devs dont have to search through the forums for all the info, just read through this one.
I think you have to look at each race and all 3 ships and see a roll for each.
I think this is why people are happy with caldari. Not only does the new ship have a role, so do the other 2 bs. Its not just about the new ones. You may have to make changes to some of the old BS.
For me
Caldari - Well done on this Raven - missle boat, very good at it. Good in small gang pvp and close to midrange encounters Scorp - EWAR BS, low dps good tank, very, very dangerous ship Rokh - Fleet sniper rail ship
Amarr - not done so well on the 3rd ship Geddon - Gank Apoc - Tank Abaddon - (my idea) a missle drone boat. a new unique ship with a drone bonus and a missle rof bonus. Would be something new and different for Amarr.
Gallente - No ideas, I saw someone mention making it an EWAR BS, that might be interesting
Matari Phoon - close in versatile ship using missles, drones, nice tank. Basically good the way it is. Not a great ship, but can be fun to fly and has its uses. Make it about 10m/s faster.
Tempest - The fleet ship, give it another turret, and add some PG to fit it. Make it slower. Probably dont need the ROF bonus, add a resistance bonus to it.
Mael - AC platform. Speed it up (slower then phoon though, about how the phoon is now), make it more agile. Keep the bonus. Add more cargo bay, or do something about projectile ammo.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:36:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies
Originally by: Ishina Fel The Megathron also has more powergrid, which is quite important when trying to fit a full complement of large railguns (15500 base for 7 rails versus 15000 base for 8 rails).
sure, but you should remember that for example Heavy Armor Rep T2 for Megathron needs 2300 powergrid, but XL Shield Booster for Rokh need ONLY 550 pg.
Point taken. But take a look at this: 7x T2 450mm = 7*2625*0.9 = 16537.5, +2300 for the repper = 18837,5 MW required. Base grid with Engineering, 15500*1.25 = 19375 MW available.
Hmmm... Megathron fits! Now the Rokh:
8x T2 450mm = 8*2625*0.9 = 18900, +550 for the booster = 19450 MW required. Base grid with Engineering, 1500*1.25 = 18750 MW available.
Doot doot doot. Doesn't fit, with or without booster. If you want to fit those guns, you're going to need fitting mods, or use smaller guns! There is no cookie cutter gank + tank setup with the largest of everything. This is as it should be. The Rokh is fine as it is.
Also, I'm not opening a debate about armor tanking vs. shield tanking here, since I'm ambivalent about that and it's off-topic, so don't go and drag me into one.
Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies
Originally by: Ishina Fel A Megathron can also field 5 heavy drones (2 for the Rokh) to support it if the encounter is under 50km.
Rokh have 10200\8400 shield\armor, Megathron have 4969\5313 shield\armor. Any other brilliant ideas??
Yeah, I have the brilliant idea that you should log onto the test server and check how much shield/armor your Megathron has /after/ the hitpoint boost that Singularity already runs but Tranquility does not. If all your arguments are this poorly researched...
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:37:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Originally by: Tiuwaz it only raises the assumption that you dont really care what we gonna say about it and you just want it in 1 space so it doesnt clutter the rest of the forum
Or maybe they want it all in one place to make gathering opinions easier. Or maybe tons of threads are just annoying :P
That said: Abbadon as Amarr EW boat would absolutely rule. No need for just another ganka/tanka... our ships are boring enough as it is, and there are some people who don't feel like training for large t2 guns but would still love to be able to be effective in a bs in fleets, you know. Diversity 4tw!
You would make me (and supposedly many others *cough*) very happy if you at least considered that idea.
being devil's advocate here, it is true that more diversity in the amarr ship lineup would be good.
however the main drawback of being amarr is and should be the fact their ships follow an inflexible approach of guns + armor, leaving little to no room for flexibility/diversity, which is intended to be, in my opinion, a balancing factor, that is shredded due to the more recent changes (omni-tanks, more intensive usage of cap boosters/nos). It seems that, altho amarr were powerfull once, their navy could not cope with quick changes in the battlefield, due to the inherent inflexibility of their navy.
but I don't want to discuss this here. Ships & Mods forum section is riddled of it and I don't want to bring the flammage to here. -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Ipod
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:40:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ithildin As long as the Abaddon doesn't get a drone damage bonus, it can have as much drone bay as it pleases - it's not going to threaten the Dominix' position as top drone using battleship.
Don't understand why Gallante pilots are so anti-help Amarr. You all know we have drone ships, so trying to say that we shouldn't get another one seems silly.
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Jacob Holland
Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:45:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Ithildin Abaddon Capacitor is a real issue. Really needs those capacitor rigs. Possible fix might be to boost capacitor batteries or something.
Rokh It's fine. I mean, over all range on battleships is silly, but as far as a ranged battleship goes, this is a fine ship.
Hyperion We already got a blaster ship. Either the Hype or the Megathron is going to be the better. If you insist on having a "tanking" bonus on a blaster ship, it's much better off with an armour amount bonus. I'd rather the ship got changed so we didn't have TWO blaster battleships, which is counter productive.
Maelstrom This was introduced as a fleet ship. As a concept it's fine, but it's lacking in one of the bonuses - the hated shield boost amount bonus. If it's changed to a shield capacity amount bonus, the Maelstrom will actually see increased survival in fleet combat since both initial hit point buffer is increased, and in that shield extenders become better.
Related Any thoughts given into boosting the Controlled Burst skill now that combats have taken a turn for the longer? Gallente and Amarr ships are already aching for better capacitor control skills.
/signed
Leave the Mega as the Blaster boat (it looks cooler if nothing else ). But I have no idea what you would then do with the Hyperion - Sensor Damp boat is the obvious option but not combined with Blasters as that's just silly.
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Arakk
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:16:00 -
[73]
i know this sounds like a vindicator, but thats because the vindi is the super blasterboat...
but i think the hyperion should have the 5th mid moved to a low, and change the 7.5% to armor repping to an mwd bonus like on the thorax. or perhaps a +resist bonus or armor hp bonus.
and it DEFINATLY needs more powergrid if its supposed to fullfill its role as a blasterboat (as said in the description of the ship) whether or not my suggestions are reasonable...it needs to be able to outperform the megathron as a blasterboat if its ever going to be used. as it stands now i only see this ship tanking complexes...maybe...
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:16:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ithildin As long as the Abaddon doesn't get a drone damage bonus, it can have as much drone bay as it pleases - it's not going to threaten the Dominix' position as top drone using battleship.
What about giving a really, i mean really good bonus to drone hitpoints (kinda fits with amarr. And giving it a larger drone bay the the Domi.
Although most people wouild probably prefer the hitpoint bonus.
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Racuel
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:18:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Racuel on 26/10/2006 18:21:26 How about doing these changes to the minmatar BS: Tempest: 5% damage bonus and some kind of tanking-bonus. This should then be minmatars Arty-platform, great tank and high alphastrike but at the expense of DPS (like it always has been).
Mael: change base-speed to something like 160-170 (not sure about numbers), bonuses being 5% RoF and 5% bonus to top-speed. Fast and agile, just come in and deliver some swift justice with its UZI-like ACs
Typhoon should stay as is.
Then Tempest would be the designated sniper-ship. Mael a feared AC-boat that is capable of dictate range. I havent crunched numbers but i think it would be nice to see how it plays out.
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Catga Coltrain
Gallente New Dawn Rising The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:19:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Catga Coltrain on 26/10/2006 18:20:19
Quote:
I'm contemplating insulting you or educating you. Think I'd satisfy myself with a simple "educate yourself".
It is merely accidental that the Megathron also happens to be fairly competent with railguns.
Hmmm did I upset you with the truth? Or did you just not bother to read the information I posted? Or maybe your one of those forum *****s that has nothing constructive to do but to lobby his one-sided view on how the game should be (as opposed to how it is). So IÆll forgive you and give you one more chance to post an educated, researched, and polite response (or you can destroy your credibility by posting another immature reply).
DonÆt get me wrong I love my mega, but itÆs just obvious that all sources point to the fact that itÆs not engineered for the sole and only task of being a blaster boat (look at the back story I posted, look at the attributes for the ship)! I have tried some of the oddest setups with my mega and IÆll tell you this, some of them are plain horrible but others put the whole blaster boat notion to shame. The Hyperion is and already has been built around being a true blaster boat, itÆs pretty much final and all we can do is test it and make suggestions to improve its performance.
As for Mysterlee and his suggestions, I support the roles he suggested. The problem is that I donÆt think these battleships were ever meant to fill those roles; if they ever do implement ships like you suggested they would be entirely new ones, which would be okay with as it only adds to the games diversity. To reiterate this means that I support your idea but my thoughts on where CCP is going with this are that itÆs not going 2 happen, but if it does it should be new ships (another tier, tech 2, etc).
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire |
Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:23:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Racuel Edited by: Racuel on 26/10/2006 18:21:26 How about doing these changes to the minmatar BS: Tempest: 5% damage bonus and some kind of tanking-bonus. This should then be minmatars Arty-platform, great tank and high alphastrike but at the expense of DPS (like it always has been).
Mael: change base-speed to something like 160-170 (not sure about numbers), bonuses being 5% RoF and 5% bonus to top-speed. Fast and agile, just come in and deliver some swift justice with its UZI-like ACs
Typhoon should stay as is.
Then Tempest would be the designated sniper-ship. Mael a feared AC-boat that is capable of dictate range. I havent crunched numbers but i think it would be nice to see how it plays out.
Great ideas, but dont forget the extra turret on Tempest. Really would be nice for alpha strike and new HP changes. And if they remove the ROF bonus and add tanking bonus, that it wouldnt be overpowered as an AC platform with the 7th turret.
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Kaden Seer
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:30:00 -
[78]
Look at these bonuses:
Amarr 5% large energy weapon rate of fire per level 5% armor resistance per level
Caldari 10% large hybrid optimal range per level 5% shield resistance per level
Minmatar 5% large projectile weapon rate of fire per level 7.5% shield boost amount per level
So all of these ships get a bonus to attack and one to defense, whereas the gallente one gets a bonus to speed ?!
Is it not common sense to give the Gallente battleship a 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level instead of a MWD bonus? If it's gonna attack from up close it will need to be a good tank to survive, otherwise what's the point?
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Kenya Borgin
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:39:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Kenya Borgin on 26/10/2006 18:41:41 >Great ideas, but dont forget the extra turret on Tempest. Really would be nice for alpha strike and new HP changes. And if they remove the ROF bonus and add tanking bonus, that it wouldnt be overpowered as an AC platform with the 7th turret.
As i said, didnt crunch any numbers but this will make all 3 ships well-defined, 1 great sniper; 1 great AC and 1 joker, where the joker can be anything it wants.
I did a quick check on how fast a BS with base-speed 165, BS V and Navigation (think its navigation, the one that increases speed) V and it ended up being around 250. Which it has to be since the slotlayout screams gank. The slots on mael might have to be checked and possibly reverse it to 8/5/6 or maybe even 8/4/7. Either way im thinking MWD injector, 20k scram and a TD or 2
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Racuel
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:40:00 -
[80]
^^Damn alt
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:46:00 -
[81]
The BS just seem so close to what we've already got.
I own a Dominix and a Megathron because they are both very diffrent ships that do diffrent things.
At this point the Hyperion seems like a remix of the Megathron, so truth be told, I'm not excited by it.
My suggestion: Leave the Rokh alone as it does something new, and turn the rest into racial EWar ships along the lines of the Scorpion. I'd be more excited to get ships that do something new. Like the Webber/Painter, Warp Jammer/Damper, Tracking Disruptor/NOS(or Neut) pairings as the EWar specalities for the diffrent races.
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merc999
Caldari Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:50:00 -
[82]
T3 battleships - for missile specialists there is no T3 battleships. I understand making the Caldari a gunboat to give Caldari that option, but there isnt even the option for missile specialists to train BShip in another race to get a T3 missile battleship.
Guess I wont be buying T3 MERC999 Public Relations Director TBSV
Keeping Empire and Syndicate ship builders in business |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:53:00 -
[83]
mael have some serious issues... atm it totally fail in its supposed role as the pest is still better...
the problem here is imo not due to the ship itself (ok the boost bonus is useless), but generated by many factors, one of them are the stats of artillery.
artillery was supposed to benefit from 2 factors: - alpha strike - ability to chose the damage type
alpha strike just got nerfed to be useless (and is pretty bad to ask dmg bonus instead of rof, it will make the weapon just worse)
the ability to chose damage went away with t2 long range ammo (the only possible choice for a good fleet ship)
so arty have lost all its benefits and on counter it have
- lowest range - lowest dps - lowest tracking
this makes artillery ship design quite problematic as there are some necessary bonuses to compete with other ships/weapons
a clear example is the mael compared to tempest... the tempest have 2 good dmg bonuses (almost necessary for an arty boat) and what is left for the mael is not much, it need 2 more guns to reach the tempest dps, so the need to give it high pg/cpu and it end with a more expensive boat with a performance very similar to the old ship.
imo this problem will be present (not just for this ship but even for other ones) until there will be some substantial rework of proj/arty, a 5% bonus could be a step but is not enought to make this weapon balanced to other ones considering its lack of range and tracking...
if arty is supposed to have the lowest range then its dps should be generally higher to longer range weapons (as it happens for close range)
if arty is supposed to be a low dps weapon then it should have more versatility in form of range and tracking
if the problem is amarr that will fit arty instead of lasers to use the cap to build strong tanks then there are some solutions to prevent that...
- increase the pg/cpu requirement of proj weapons (and of minnie ships) to make them harder to fit to other races
- improve or introduce a built in damage bonus for minnie ships... eg almost all minnies have a rof bonus of 5%... bring this value to 7.5 - 9% and rebalance ACs (even if ACs need a big boost too imo)
back to the mael... as said the ship is not working in its role, if the role have to stay the same then i think it will be better to switch its boost bonus to a 10% shield hp bonus
this way at least the mael will offer a better tank than a tempest in a fleet config.
rokh... imo this ship is quite overpowered... is not the damage itself but the modules it saves... due to its longer base targetting range, its optimal bonus, very good tank bonus and the superiority of hybrid weapons it totally outclass every other fleet boat.
to compare with the mael probably a rock will save 3 if not more slots, slots that can be used to fit a veeery good tank.
imo this disparity with other fleet ships is not acceptable and is quite probable that other ships will become simply obsolete.
the solution here can be to give it looower pg/cpu to force to use 2 more modules to have a functional fleet setup
or simply to remove some guns, giving it lower dps (6 turrets/2 missiles could work), this way the boat will result extremely sturdy but its lower dps should be able to balance this superiority
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NightmareX
Caldari MAFIA Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:08:00 -
[84]
Edited by: NightmareX on 26/10/2006 19:08:10 I have to agree with you Ath Amon about the Maelstrom.
So i think i will use a Tempest / Machariel over a Maelstrom if the Maelstrom is going to be like now when it comes to TQ.
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Exiled One
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:10:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ithildin As long as the Abaddon doesn't get a drone damage bonus, it can have as much drone bay as it pleases - it's not going to threaten the Dominix' position as top drone using battleship.
Scared? Are you scared? Scared of 'loosing' skillpoints in a sense? MLTEWNOSDRONE*****. BOOST GALLENTE FORGET ABOUT OTHER RACES, idiot.
It's great being Amarr, aint it? |
Powder Monkey
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:12:00 -
[86]
Either adress the Abaddon CAP issues, or change the rof bonus to Drone hp & dmg x percent incease per lvl, as well as increase Abaddon's drone bay, while removing turret slots.
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MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:40:00 -
[87]
i quite wondering why maelstorm has in descr: something about small gangs and solo work? isn't it close-heavy like raven or even worse?
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:54:00 -
[88]
Originally by: MECTO i quite wondering why maelstorm has in descr: something about small gangs and solo work? isn't it close-heavy like raven or even worse?
thus my opinion of transforming the mael into a bigass arty platform (5% dmg + 10% shield hp bonuses), and tune up tempest' agility to make him a nimbler swiss knife* ship.
*nimbler swiss knife as in good at short range (AC pest), good at long range (sniper pest that has better DoT than maelstorm), and agile enough to be a hit-n-run ship in both configs. -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:07:00 -
[89]
Originally by: SpMind My post actualy not about taer 3 BSs... about all ammarians ships in Kali. How you think, whi all ammarians ship have bonus 10% reduction cap use? Because Lasers UBERWEAPON? I do not think so. All ships recive +50% hp boost hardners and plates also boosted. In this case ammarians ships a face the challenge of cap shortage. I doubt that Tachyon Beam II make mutch greater DPS than 1400 II, so why Lasers fit mutch harder than 1400 why they spend awesome amount of cpa per shot? Ah.. also they have perfect dmg type - EM Abbadon hawe a great bonuses, i like it , but i less and less like lasers... They need a serious rethinking in kali.
P.S. Sorry for my eanglish
Why? How about because on Minmatar ships 1400's have only 10 ammo? every 10 ammo they need to recharge for another 10 seconds, now add your DPS for these 10 seconds and see the difference in damage output!
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:28:00 -
[90]
First of all, if Amarr get a drone boat I will lose exactly zero skill points. I'm Gallente AND Amarr specialized. I got laser specialization prior to hybrid specialization. My first interceptor was a Crusader, my second a Malediction. My three most used ships are in order: Taranis, Megathron, Vengeance. I'm not anti-Amarr. I use them myself.
Now that that is done, you should all know that the reason Amarr has the Arbitrator is a one-off. It is merely happenstance, and the devs pursuit of the generic that's been going on for a few years, that has the Arbitrator similar to the Vexor in drone power. I'm old enough to tell the story of when the Thorax was the drone cruiser and the Arbitrator had less than half it's drone bay. Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays. That the Amarr recons are also drone cruisers is a very sad happenstance and completely due to them having the bonuses of their base hulls than anything the "fluff" would say.
That aside, that Amarr should have drone ships is fine as long as game balance also adheres to the game "fluff". The "fluff" clearly states that Gallente invented drones, developed drones, and continue to hold drone mechanics and AI as their high-technological foothold. By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class. Now, using drones is slightly more than just the number, size, and bonus to drones, it also somewhat inherit some of the miscellaneous power of the ship itself.
In effect, introducing an Amarr ship with a +10% drone damage bonus with a drone bay larger than 120 metrics will upset the conceptual balance among the races. IF it is introduced at tier 3 when the Gallente ship is relegated to tier 1. If the situation could be reversed, it could be very well workable having an Amarr drone ship - even with the same drone bonus and drone bay as the Gallente one.
This is not about Amarr not getting a drone boat. This is about not ******* up the backstory. This is about not ******* up the reasons people have trained for this or that race just because people think the grass is greener at the moment. - What am I listening to? |
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:33:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Forsch on 26/10/2006 20:35:34
Originally by: Ithildin Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays.
And the 2nd missile race. And the 2nd shield tanking race. Imo drones are not any more of a 2nd weapon to minmatar as they are to amarr.
Originally by: Ithildin By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.
Apparently not. Or how is the vexor better with drones than the arbi?
P.S. I still think the tier3 battleship should not be "better" then the tier1 and tier2.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:37:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.
Apparently not. Or how is the vexor better with drones than the arbi?
vexor, while equal in terms of drone firepower with the arbi, is capable of dishing more firepower (+5% hybrid damage), while the arbi is more of an Ewar platform. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:44:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Forsch Edited by: Forsch on 26/10/2006 20:35:34
Originally by: Ithildin Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays.
And the 2nd missile race. And the 2nd shield tanking race. Imo drones are not any more of a 2nd weapon to minmatar as they are to amarr.
Minmatar are secondary everything, what's your point? And did you do as I asked? Did you check the Minmatar drone bays?
Quote:
Originally by: Ithildin By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.
Apparently not. Or how is the vexor better with drones than the arbi?
P.S. I still think the tier3 battleship should not be "better" then the tier1 and tier2.
The Arbitrator specifically states it's unusual. That it is comparable with the Vexor is a game design fault which becomes apparent if you read it's description where the designers state that it's not the best drone cruiser around.
Then again, you aren't old enough to properly remember the stats ships had back when they were still true to concepts and ideologies. Go to BoB's killboard and search for ship infos to get enlightened. The core of BoB's ship database is from 2003. - What am I listening to? |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:49:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Grimpak
vexor, while equal in terms of drone firepower with the arbi, is capable of dishing more firepower (+5% hybrid damage), while the arbi is more of an Ewar platform.
however, the arbi has more armor and meds, wich makes him a better ECM nosdrone ship.
exactly. the vexor is different from the arbi. not better.
in the same way an amarrian drone bs does not need to be better or worse than the domi but different. if you want to go with the arbi as a start it would get a reasonably big dronebay (200m3 or so) a mix of turret and launcher hardpoints and a balanced slotlayout. stick the 10% dmg/hp dronebonus on it and then some other non-weapon bonus. td-optimal range could be one. some tanking or logistics bonus another.
also: i'm pretty certain Forsch knows how an arbi works.
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Red Ochre
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:52:00 -
[95]
interesting thread, confusing with all the i wants, and it needs to be done this way posts. here is a proposal, how about YOU change the way you fight? wow, wild idea there.
out of nearly 4 pages i see 6 suggestions with solutions that ccp would even consider, and if ccp is looking to placate the small pvp community then maybe a few more (i hope not).
lets try to keep our wants and desires and changes to these ships to what the community as a whole can use, not one demographic slice of the community. |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:54:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Ithildin Then again, you aren't old enough to properly remember the stats ships had back when they were still true to concepts and ideologies. Go to BoB's killboard and search for ship infos to get enlightened. The core of BoB's ship database is from 2003.
People usually start with insults when they lack real arguments. Fyi I started at the end of the beta with another char.
So far I haven't seen any valid point that speaks against a battleship sized drone ship for Amarr. And tbh I don't understand your anger about it either if you can fly both anyway.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:01:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Red Ochre how about YOU change the way you fight?
this is exactly what i would like to be able to do.
unfortunately tux has designed the abaddon to be a bigger and better version of our already existing battleships instead of something new.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:01:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin Then again, you aren't old enough to properly remember the stats ships had back when they were still true to concepts and ideologies. Go to BoB's killboard and search for ship infos to get enlightened. The core of BoB's ship database is from 2003.
People usually start with insults when they lack real arguments. Fyi I started at the end of the beta with another char.
So far I haven't seen any valid point that speaks against a battleship sized drone ship for Amarr. And tbh I don't understand your anger about it either if you can fly both anyway.
well, taking a more "open" approach to the problem, one could say that devs are trying to keep the amarrian ships, big humps of laser-shooting metal with little to no flexibility, in terms of adjusting to the battlefield, relying solely on pure gun power and thick armor to overcome the enemy.
how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.
...this is all pure speculation however. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:06:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 22:07:30 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 22:06:26
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Red Ochre how about YOU change the way you fight?
this is exactly what i would like to be able to do.
unfortunately tux has designed the abaddon to be a bigger and better version of our already existing battleships instead of something new.
Yeah. The Amarr seriously need the "Khanid mark II" change that has been talked about -- or some other variance. While I can whine about the Hyperion being "just another variant of the Mega", it seem that pretty much all Amarr designs are the lasers + armor basic crud.
It gets old. Amarr desperately need variant ships like the Arbitrator (and its t2 cousins Curse and Pilgrim). It's no wonder those ships are popular, they are pretty much the only variety the Amarr have -- in addition to being kick-ass ships in their own right.
The Rokh is fine, as many have noted. The others would really benefit from a rethink, as is they are just copies of already existing ships. They don't open any new roles.
A bs-sized Arbitrator? A bs-sized Celestis? Yes, please!
... and I'm pretty sure the Minmatar would love a proper missile battleship.
How about it?
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.
The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting
Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:
Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck! Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator. Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then? Now go back 6 lines up.
As for Gallenteans whining about a ship getting the same drone power as the Domi, thats just like the Caldari whine about a Minmatar ship getting as many medslots as a Caldari one. Imho only jealous and possessive bickering. A big arby with a drone bonus just like the Domi would make a great tier3 battleship for amarr. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:17:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
As for Gallenteans whining about a ship getting the same drone power as the Domi, thats just like the Caldari whine about a Minmatar ship getting as many medslots as a Caldari one. Imho only jealous and possessive bickering. A big arby with a drone bonus just like the Domi would make a great tier3 battleship for amarr.
Hey, I'm Gallente and I totally agree. A bs-size Arbitrator would rock. As would a missile-based Minmatar bs, and many other variants.
What I don't like is the duplication of ships, currently 3 of the 4 new battleships are just slight variants of already existing ships (and roles). That is, frankly, stupid.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:20:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.
The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting
Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:
Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck! Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator. Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then? Now go back 6 lines up.
I see you got the point -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Galea Scorpii
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:31:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.
The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting
Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:
Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck! Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator. Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then? Now go back 6 lines up.
I see you got the point
Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!
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Kalianyia
Caldari Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:33:00 -
[104]
Hyperion:
Please give it more grid. You do not have to worry about people ussing the extra grid for 425mm's because the 50km base targetting range effectively makes fitting rails pretty pointless.
Please give us a blaster boat that can actually fit Neutron Blaster II's and a decent tank. OR Fit Ion or Electron II's with the possibility of fitting 2 LAR's.
Being gimped on PG means if you want any decent DPS out of it, you will be gimping the tanking abilitiy which makes the 7.5% armor rep bonus fairly worthless. -----
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 -
[105]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/10/2006 22:38:07 Regarding the minnies vs others:
Hyperion shouldn't be faster than Maelstrom. Not w/o a MWD.
Rokh should be as equal of a sniper as temp and mega, NO better. Yeah, they wanted a sniper but why make it better than all the others? We dont have any 6 msl turret bs's or 8 midslot bs's, no one gets an equivelent to Caldari, why should Caldari get an equivelent/better ship than our best?
Maelstrom's SB bonus is crap, i think we all (including tux) can agree on that. A HP boost is kinda dumb too. I guess it will stick though unless they can find a more appropriate bonus, (plz god dont change it to TP bonus)
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:38:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Galea Scorpii
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.
The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting
Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:
Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck! Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator. Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no! Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then? Now go back 6 lines up.
I see you got the point
Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!
I don't rule. I am just keen in attempting to find out the obvious that's all -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Galea Scorpii
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Grimpak
Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!
I don't rule. I am just keen in attempting to find out the obvious that's all
Oh don't be shy :) I love progressive men like you! :)
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 23:00:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Galea Scorpii
Originally by: Grimpak
Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!
I don't rule. I am just keen in attempting to find out the obvious that's all
Oh don't be shy :) I love progressive men like you! :)
-------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 23:32:00 -
[109]
Tempest: "...a versatile gunship..." Typhoon: "...Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility... Maelstrom: "With the Maelstrom, versatility is the name of the game..."
with so much versatility you cant help but get a warm and fuzzy heart, despite that could we get for a change a minmatar BS with a defined role?
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Karash Amerius
Amarr O.E.C
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:01:00 -
[110]
I think the Devs wanted the Abaddon to be a 'native tachyon' boat. But to be honest, it fails pretty horribly at that. But for those wishing what sort of role it was designed for...CCP has hinted at that many times I believe.
Merc Blog |
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:17:00 -
[111]
Here are some brain storms for some examples of stuff that would make me more excited. The current proposed ships on test just feel like a re-hash of existing ships. Except for the Rokh.
-Malestorm-
Bonus 1: Stasis webber range and target painter effectiveness. Bonus 2: Seige Launcher ROF bonus. Role Bonus: -80% combat drone damage, 350 m3 drone bay.
Many missile points, a lot of mids, few lows.
Torpedo + Ewar/utility drone boat. Would provide support for other ships like ravens or maybe even dreads while supporting itself.
-Hyperion-
Bonus 1: Sensor damper strength and warp disruptor range. Bonus 2: Large Hybrid tracking bonus. Role Bonus: Can fit Skirmish Warfare command modules.
5-6 turret points, a lot of mids, few lows. Low mass, good agility.
-Abbadon-
Bonus 1: Tracking Disruptor effect and Energy Neut range. Bonus 2: Armor resists.
Half and half missile/turret slots.
Give it a _huge_ drone bay, and good natural cap stats.
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Exiled One
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:25:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Exiled One on 27/10/2006 00:25:36
Originally by: Ithildin First of all, if Amarr get a drone boat I will lose exactly zero skill points. I'm Gallente AND Amarr specialized. I got laser specialization prior to hybrid specialization. My first interceptor was a Crusader, my second a Malediction. My three most used ships are in order: Taranis, Megathron, Vengeance. I'm not anti-Amarr. I use them myself.
Now that that is done, you should all know that the reason Amarr has the Arbitrator is a one-off. It is merely happenstance, and the devs pursuit of the generic that's been going on for a few years, that has the Arbitrator similar to the Vexor in drone power. I'm old enough to tell the story of when the Thorax was the drone cruiser and the Arbitrator had less than half it's drone bay. Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays. That the Amarr recons are also drone cruisers is a very sad happenstance and completely due to them having the bonuses of their base hulls than anything the "fluff" would say.
That aside, that Amarr should have drone ships is fine as long as game balance also adheres to the game "fluff". The "fluff" clearly states that Gallente invented drones, developed drones, and continue to hold drone mechanics and AI as their high-technological foothold. By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class. Now, using drones is slightly more than just the number, size, and bonus to drones, it also somewhat inherit some of the miscellaneous power of the ship itself.
In effect, introducing an Amarr ship with a +10% drone damage bonus with a drone bay larger than 120 metrics will upset the conceptual balance among the races. IF it is introduced at tier 3 when the Gallente ship is relegated to tier 1. If the situation could be reversed, it could be very well workable having an Amarr drone ship - even with the same drone bonus and drone bay as the Gallente one.
This is not about Amarr not getting a drone boat. This is about not ******* up the backstory. This is about not ******* up the reasons people have trained for this or that race just because people think the grass is greener at the moment.
edited Not worth it.
It's great being Amarr, aint it? |
ProphetGuru
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 01:14:00 -
[113]
Mael- don't force a shield tanking option down our throats please. While minnie have some versatility, armor tanking is far more practical on our current bs's , and cap ships. Our training and implants generally reflect this. Minnie are generally acknowledged as being more skill intensive, we don't need another whole line of stuff to take to five because someone is fixated on making sure we have 1 of everything, yet excell at nothing.
Those asking for an ac boat, I disagree. How about the typhoon gets fixed instead? An 8 arty fleet platform would fit in, but the rof needs to be switched to dmg and the shield tanking bonus needs to be switched to resists.
Thank you.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.27 01:26:00 -
[114]
again with mael that should get +dmg bonus instead of +rof?
alpha is dead... let it rest in peace
+dmg gives less dps than rof and as arty is alredy the lowest dps long range weapons it need the bonus that gives best dps possible (rof)
+damage with +50% hps is usefull only if you are sniping nobbs in frigs
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cyberdog
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Posted - 2006.10.27 02:42:00 -
[115]
New tier 3 BS mmmm what do i think. I think the rokh is great caldari getting a rail boat is nice for them good job on that one. For the others i would have given them roles with specialized ewar ships. So each race would get kind of a scorp equivalent. Amarr tracking distruptor ship, minny target painter and gallente sensor damps. That would have mixed it up a bit and given variation on the battlefield. This is a good idea? What you guys think?
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ProphetGuru
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 04:15:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Ath Amon +damage with +50% hps is usefull only if you are sniping nobbs in frigs
Yeah maybe for a gate ganker. In a real fleet no.. I'll take the alpha with a dmg bonus and 5% dmg boost on 1400mm thanks.
stick that plz.
Thanks
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 04:20:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.27 04:58:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
yeah for a cost of 2 t2 turrets and tempest more agile too
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 05:39:00 -
[119]
Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/10/2006 22:38:07 Rokh should be as equal of a sniper as temp and mega, NO better. Yeah, they wanted a sniper but why make it better than all the others? We dont have any 6 msl turret bs's or 8 midslot bs's, no one gets an equivelent to Caldari, why should Caldari get an equivelent/better ship than our best?
As I recall, the Mega will outdamage the Rokh below 80km. And even when the Rokh does outdamage the Meg it's not out by much. And don't point out the uber long range. It breaks past a threshhold where anymore just doesn't matter a damn. Fleet fights will still happen around 100-120km ranges because that's the max range for most other battleships.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 06:14:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Illuminaty on 27/10/2006 06:15:55
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
This just caught my attention:
8/7.5 = 1.0667
Is 6.7% enough diffrence to even justify making a new ship?
The Hyperion/Malestorm/Abbadon just seem so 'wtf, why would I pay more for a ship that really does the same damn thing as another ship that I already have'.
Edit:(I mean for ffs, combine lag with the need to activate more turrets and your probably doing less damage)
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 06:37:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Illuminaty Edited by: Illuminaty on 27/10/2006 06:15:55
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
This just caught my attention:
8/7.5 = 1.0667
Is 6.7% enough diffrence to even justify making a new ship?
The Hyperion/Malestorm/Abbadon just seem so 'wtf, why would I pay more for a ship that really does the same damn thing as another ship that I already have'.
Edit:(I mean for ffs, combine lag with the need to activate more turrets and your probably doing less damage)
If you want the absolutely best alphastrike then yes, it's worth it. It is, as many has noted, not cost-effective, but if you want the absolutely best alphastrike (at a reasonable price) you won't really worry about that. Lots of BoB pilots will fly it simply because it has the ROF bonus and 8 turrets. If the shield tanking bonus stays we'll use it for ew/tc/sb just like we do with the tempest.
The real question about the Maelstorm is the tank bonus. It's more suited for a small/med gatecamp/fight and ac-setups than fleetfights which it's been touted as. Given that I'm in favour of changing it and the best suggestion I've seen so far was 10% shield hp per lvl.
Such a bonus would give less resists than the Rohk, but you can with the current stats of the ship make a reasonable fleet setup with decent resists and a recharge rate that equals a large sbII. Equal to the Rohk in shieldtanking, but sufficently different enough to not encroach on Caldari's field. It also allows for more flexibility than the current bonus as you can choose to just give it some better resists and then go for damage increasing mods, go for an uber passive tank, something in between, and even in some situations go with an armor tank and utilize those medslots for ew/other useful medslot mods.
A resistance bonus would give it about the same versitality but along different paths.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Ni Nee
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Posted - 2006.10.27 07:01:00 -
[122]
The bottom line on the Maelstrum is Minmatar pilots do not like shield boost bonus. Why not give that bonus to the Caldari BS and give us the range bonus and everyone will be happy!
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 07:23:00 -
[123]
FFS, just fit an faction gyrostab instead of a gyrostab II then.
6.7% is a diffrence that is only going to be noticable in a theoretical discussion about something or an e-peen measuring contest. It isn't sufficent grounds to base an entire battleship around.
I'd be happy if they took the Hyperion, Maelstorm, and Abaddon back to the drawing board and came back with something that _adds_ to the ship lineup like the Rokh adds to the caldari lineup.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.27 07:47:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:47:35
This thread is turning out exacly like I thought it would. Total chaos...Which is better: 50000 threads or 50000 posts in one thread.... :p
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:53:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:55:13
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
I meant the apoc with projectiles here. Of course tachs dont have the alpha of projectiles.
So Tempest doesnt have more alphastrike than the projectile apoc. Like you say here, it has 7.5 effective turrets of alpha strike. Apoc has 8.
Maelstrom will have higher alpha than the Tempest, yes. By 0.5 turrets.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:58:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:58:09
Originally by: Tiuwaz Tempest: "...a versatile gunship..." Typhoon: "...Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility... Maelstrom: "With the Maelstrom, versatility is the name of the game..."
with so much versatility you cant help but get a warm and fuzzy heart, despite that could we get for a change a minmatar BS with a defined role?
Most versatile ships in the game is probably Raven and Dominix tbh.... but who am I to disagree with the devs. The Maelstrom looks versatile though. Its all in the slot layouts, not the race.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:14:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Nifel on 27/10/2006 08:13:50
Originally by: Illuminaty FFS, just fit an faction gyrostab instead of a gyrostab II then.
6.7% is a diffrence that is only going to be noticable in a theoretical discussion about something or an e-peen measuring contest. It isn't sufficent grounds to base an entire battleship around.
I'd be happy if they took the Hyperion, Maelstorm, and Abaddon back to the drawing board and came back with something that _adds_ to the ship lineup like the Rokh adds to the caldari lineup.
Yeah... ppl should start fitting faction gyrostabs. Will drive up the price even more, not to mention demand in such a situation would far outstrip supply. Great plan!
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:23:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:55:13
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
I meant the apoc with projectiles here. Of course tachs dont have the alpha of projectiles.
So Tempest doesnt have more alphastrike than the projectile apoc. Like you say here, it has 7.5 effective turrets of alpha strike. Apoc has 8.
Maelstrom will have higher alpha than the Tempest, yes. By 0.5 turrets.
Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?
Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:36:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Nifel
Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?
Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.
It needs a damage bonus because there is no reason to use it over any other 8 turret battleship otherwise. If the other battleships get bonuses to give them a specific role, why doesnt the Maelstrom? You know that ROF and shield boost are probably the worst bonuses possible for a fleet ship.
Sure, if you increase its survivability by shield hp and resists, then at least it gets some bonuses that fits its role. Thats all I ask.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:21:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 08:39:13
Originally by: Nifel
Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?
Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.
It needs a damage bonus because there is no reason to use it over any other 8 turret battleship otherwise. If the other battleships get bonuses to give them a specific role, why doesnt the Maelstrom? You know that ROF and shield boost are probably the worst bonuses possible for a fleet ship.
Sure, if you increase its survivability by shield hp and resists, then at least it gets some bonuses that fits its role. Thats all I ask.
But to be honest, I think the ship is meant to be small gang support at medium range. Thats why all these discussions about a role in a fleet is probably just making the devs shake their heads. Its not the ships purpose, judging from its current bonuses.
However, I dont see why you would use the Maelstrom instead of the Tempest for small gangs. The shield boost is only useful when taking fire from a small number of ships. Otherwise, it just wont have time to get useful.
Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.
And as for what the devs have said about the maelstorm, tux said he wanted it to be a shieldtanking artillery platform. And yes... for small/medium gangs the bonus fits, somewhat. Problem is that if you're gonna go in close/medium range with an artillery setup you're better off with tracking computers than an active shield tank. So then you end up with a long range setup if you want to hit + tank effectively and all of the sudden you're left with fleet distances.
Better then to change the shield boost bonus to something that allows for both scenarios and allows for more flexibility. With a hp/res bonus you're still extremely useful in the active tanking department in small/medium gangs, but it also broadens the applications of the ship to include fleet fights.
What is there not to like?
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 09:31:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Logan Xerxes on 27/10/2006 09:33:50 FINALLY I get the link working...
Fun with graphs! as you can see the Mega will still put out more damage than the Rokh in sub-60km ranges. And let's be honest, a majority of all fights occur below this range.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:31:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Nifel
Better then to change the shield boost bonus to something that allows for both scenarios and allows for more flexibility. With a hp/res bonus you're still extremely useful in the active tanking department in small/medium gangs, but it also broadens the applications of the ship to include fleet fights.
What is there not to like?
I like it, but it needs 10% shield hp per level if its going to get a shield hp bonus. The lower shield recharge rate of the Maelstrom (1500s instead of 2000s) might then allow it to build up a fairly decent passive tank.
The resistance bonus would be even better, but thats taken by Caldari... and as far as I know, they dont like to give it to other races.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:33:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 09:33:34
Yes, the Rohk has range, and luckily its not a dps monster as well.
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 09:42:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 09:33:34
Yes, the Rohk has range, and luckily its not a dps monster as well.
Then have a gander at this graph....
Graph2
*Runs like a little girl from the Abaddon*
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:09:00 -
[135]
With a 3 active harderner setup. Heeello, RMR is here. Try it with 3 EAN2.
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Toaster Oven
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:21:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:22:39 Proposal: Abbadon
No one is really too happy with the Abbadon. I propose that you redesign it as a mixed laser-drone platform. Not as drone oriented as it's Gallente counterpart, Abbadon will require usage of lasers to compete with it's peers (ie Nos+Drone combo not feasible). Here it is, plain and simple:
Abbadon 7-5-7 175m3 drone bay 6 turret hardpoints
Bonuses: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use per skill level 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level
NOS + drone combo is not feasible. On Abbadon it would leave it vulnerable as it can't carry backup waves of drones like Domi can. Focus is on combining damage with some versatility, something Amarr lacks atm. We don't need another turret ship. Especially one that's utterly dependent on cap boosters.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:21:00 -
[137]
Actually I saw an idea for the minmatar one earlier in the thread that seemed quite original - and works with the race well.
Minmatar already have a flexible ship, they already have a fleet sniper. They need something new.
Minmatar get target painting boni, we all know that...but people aren't hugely impressed...but what else do minmatar use? Missiles. What missiles are really helped by target painters? Torps!
So you get the new minmatar ship:
8 High slots, 7 or 8 launcher hard points, 3 or 4 turret hardpoints 5 Mid slots 7 Low slots
Bonus: 10% per level on target painter range and effectiveness Bonus: 10% per level on torpedo rate of fire
It's an armour tanking torpedo firing beast, using target painters to get proper effectiveness from its torpedos.
Different from all the other battleships out there (even the raven) as its torpedo only but has a target painter bonus to let it use torps effectively. It has enough mid slots to run a target painter or two and maybe a web (+warp scram for PvP) it has enough low slots to build a good armour tank even without a tanking bonus.
Sounds pretty good to me :)
Zarch AlDain
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:22:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Nifel Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.
That is exactly why people are arguing for a damage bonus. They don't fly projo apocs now because the alpha-advantage of 8 turrets with no damage bonus is negligible, but the additional cost associated with it is not. It will be the same with the Mael. Even worse maybe. Only people having too much money and/or not caring about money will fly a ship in a fleet that (probably) costs 50% more in ship price and 33% more in guns, for a whooping 6.66% more damage... This might not apply to you seeing how you are in BoB, but not everyone is rich or in a rich big alliance owning T2 BPOs. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:26:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 27/10/2006 10:26:09
Originally by: Forsch YES to a big arbitrator.
Slots: 7/6/6, 4 turret, 3 launcher Drone bay: 175m¦ or 200m¦ (5 heavy, 5 medium and optional 5 light)
Bonus1: 10% per level for tracking disruptor optimal range Bonus2a: 10% drone hp/dmg per level Bonus2b: 5% armor resists per level
(This means either 2a or 2b. I'd prefer 2a but if that comes to close to the domi, 2b would be fine, too.)
I absolutely support that idea! The Abaddon needs a unique role.
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DanMck
Amarr Rionnag Alba Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:35:00 -
[140]
my 10p
for the Abbadon , we don't need a bigger drone bay or missiles
we just need the ability to fire our guns for longer , espically if the fights will last longer
there is no fun or tatics in a ship that you run out of cap in regardless of nos use or not
increase the default cap by half and leave the rest the same
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Tharrn
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:41:00 -
[141]
Speak for yourself. Flying Amarr ships only I'd kill for a drone or missile boat.
Yes, I trained both. Thanks to the idiots who claim Amarr are not flexible :P I just don't want to be forced to train for the Caldari alpha-race.
Now recruiting!
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:45:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Nifel Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.
That is exactly why people are arguing for a damage bonus. They don't fly projo apocs now because the alpha-advantage of 8 turrets with no damage bonus is negligible, but the additional cost associated with it is not. It will be the same with the Mael. Even worse maybe. Only people having too much money and/or not caring about money will fly a ship in a fleet that (probably) costs 50% more in ship price and 33% more in guns, for a whooping 6.66% more damage... This might not apply to you seeing how you are in BoB, but not everyone is rich or in a rich big alliance owning T2 BPOs.
The difference in relative cost regarding guns is 2x 1400mm II. If you can't afford that you shouldn't be flying BS anyway. Ship price doesn't matter once insurance comes into play. And the reason people don't fly artillery-apocs is because after the first volley the ship is subpar to everything.
And I'm more inclined to believe that the people that argue for a damage bonus, do it because it'd be the ******* pwn in fleetbattles. Which is exactly why I don't think it'll ever happen. Basically... asking for a damage bonus for the Maelstorm is asking for a ship that bypasses the hp buffs.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:52:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:22:39 No one is really too happy with the Abbadon.
this is not true. Im happy with abaddon if it had a bit more powergrid than maelstorm and it had a bit more Cap and Cap reg to help firing the weapons
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Toaster Oven
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:05:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 11:05:54
Originally by: Sniser this is not true. Im happy with abaddon if it had a bit more powergrid than maelstorm and it had a bit more Cap and Cap reg to help firing the weapons
You are in the vast minority. The amount of whining on the forum is clear evidence. One post by you does not stand up to the hundreds of complaints lodged thus far.
And to look at it objectively. How much would you need to boost Abbadon cap to be viable? Enough to be able to fire it's guns continuously? There's no way in hell devs would ever give it a base cap regen of 60cap/s with max skills. Would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath...
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:07:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Toaster Oven
Proposal: Abbadon ...
7-5-7 175m3 drone bay 6 turret hardpoints
Bonuses: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use per skill level 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level
the dronebay is too small. should be at least 200m3 for 1 wave of each hvy, med and small. preferably 250m3 for 2 waves of heavy drones. domi has 3 waves btw.
also i would prefer it without a bonus to its guns as that would make it pretty close to the domi & vexor design. gallente seem to go for drones + weapons bonus (well not the new bc but the others) while the arbi hulls gain most if not all damage from drones and have a support role instead of damage.
gonna post some abaddon ideas later
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Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:15:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:15:28
Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 11:05:54
Originally by: Sniser this is not true. Im happy with abaddon if it had a bit more powergrid than maelstorm and it had a bit more Cap and Cap reg to help firing the weapons
You are in the vast minority. The amount of whining on the forum is clear evidence. One post by you does not stand up to the hundreds of complaints lodged thus far.
And to look at it objectively. How much would you need to boost Abbadon cap to be viable? Enough to be able to fire it's guns continuously? There's no way in hell devs would ever give it a base cap regen of 60cap/s with max skills. Would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath...
Im not speaking about be able to fire guns continously maybe for 1 or 2 min more. And enough powergrid to be able fit guns. Armor rep and turret rigs(they use pg). A bit more cap helps a lot when you use cpr.
We may have to use cpr to be able substain shooting our guns but the other races will need use RCU to be able fit turret rigs since their will dont have enough powergrid to do it. I think this is called balance...
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:19:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
Well that setup with 4 turret, 4 launchers and 10% drone damage will make it a Typhoon on steroids and will easily outclass a Dominix as well. After all with the current grid you could fit 8 heavy NOS + tank and still do the same drone damage as a NOSDomi. Or fit it like a Typhoon but with 4 Siege, 4 Tach, 5 T2 Ogres and a super tank. Not to mention you will put the DPS of a Typhoon to shame in the process.
Simply you can't give a drone bonus to a ship that has 2.5x the grid of a Dominix.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.27 11:37:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Simply you can't give a drone bonus to a ship that has 2.5x the grid of a Dominix.
If it would be changed this way (which I hostely doubt, no matter how much justified complaining will happen, I would bet 100 mil that the aba will be virtually unchanged (exept perhaps a bit more grid) when kali goes live)..er..where was I?
Anyway, IF if it would be changed this way obviously the grid would have to be reduced as well.
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Ysolde Xen
Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari
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Posted - 2006.10.27 12:17:00 -
[149]
Are we *sure* that the shield recharge time of the Maelstrom isn't just a typo that's going to be 'fixed'?
-----
It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong. |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.27 12:19:00 -
[150]
some ideas on what could make the abaddon different from the already existing amarrian battleships:
1. big arbitrator:
6-5-8 (or 7-5-7) 3 turrets 2 launchers 250m3 dronespace (minimum should be 200m3)
20% optimal range for tracking disruptors 10% drone dmg/hp
bs size version of the arbitrator. instead of td efficency bonus it gets a range bonus like the scorp to be used agaisnt other longrange bs. enough dronespace for 2 waves of heavy drones (domi has 3 waves). like the arbi it deals most of its damage with its drones and has mixed turret/launcher hardpoints. in contrast to the domi it is less focused on wepaons and direct damage and more a support ship (something amarr really needs) like it is already with arbi and vexor.
--
2. current abaddon + tanking with missiles
8-4-7 8 turrets 6 launchers
5% laser damage or rof 5% armor resistance
basicly like it is now but with unbonused launchers so it has a viable weapon for use when tanking. without missile bonuses those will not be anywhere near the ravens capabilities so theres no problem with it becoming a better missile spammer and it doesnt have to resort to matari weapons to tank without capusing weapons. also gives amarr a chance to deal non em/therm damage.
--
3. laser sniper
8-4-7 8 turrets
10% laser optimal range 10& laser cap use reduction (or 5% armor resistanc)
does what the name says. sniping with lasers. less damage than the tux proposed one but better range. 2nd bonus either laser sustainability or resistance like it has now. its still yet another laser boat but at least it will give us something we dont already have with a dedicated sniper instead of just being a better geddon.
--
4. dedicated tanker
6-5-8 4 launchers 150m3 dronespace
5% armor resitance 10% nos/neut ammount or 7.5% repair boost or cap recharge or some other tanking or logistics bonus
deals damage with drones and unbonused launchers while tanking real nice. didnt add any turret slots as lasers arnt all that good for tanking anyway. if targetting members of your own gang was easier and quicker the 2nd bonus could also become a logistics bonus for remote armor reppers for example.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 12:53:00 -
[151]
meh.. nifel has a point but I still would give a dmg+shield hp bonus to the maelstorm, while improving agility of the tempest.
*queue in nifel screaming "OMFG YOU FOO! STOP SCREAMING BABBLING STUFF! YOU SUCK YADDA YADDA"*
ok, why do I say that dmg+shield hp would be better:
we have the typhoon as the minmatar close range slugger. doesn't have that much grid, but instead has a more bigger flexibility in his firepower since it's based in 3 weapon systems(guns+missiles+drones). however to use the 3 systems in full power it needs to go short range, which means mwd, and using armor tanking in his 7 lowslots.
typhoon = close-range slugger with flexible firepower. Only change I would give would be a bit more grid tbh.
now the tempest. Tempest, while less flexible in the firepower department, a bigger ammount of med slots allows hime to be more flexible in other departments, whether is able to shield tank, or going armor tanking with Ewar gadgetry in the meds. Boost agility a bit and what do we have? A flexible, agile gunship that can go short range hit-n-run with mild Ewar, or a hit-n-run sniper, used as fire support in smaller gangs.
tempest = multi-range gunship with better flexibility due to more medslots. Here the boost would be an increase of the ship's agility.
Then we have the maelstrom. Supposed to be a big, fat, sluggish whale with no better agility of a raven. Supposed to be a fleet ship. But tempest is already a very good fleet ship, why putting the maelstrom ingame? Well, changing the bonuses accordingly (+5% dmg + 10% shield hp) we have a ship that, while does not give better DoT than the tempest, it overcomes it in alpha-strike ability. No better than the tempest in all fields, but different.
Maelstrom = fat whale with big durability, bigger alpha strike, and sucky DoT. This is done by changing the RoF + shield boost to damage + shield hp.
so summing it up:
you want close range pwnage with multiple gun systems -> typhoon you want a flexible and agile gunship proficient in both short and long range -> tempest you want a battleship that ditches speed and agility for better alpha and durability -> maelstrom
oh and I still say, that, except for the caldari, all races' battleships should be tuned up accordingly so that the new battleships can have a better role. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Thrawnin
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:16:00 -
[152]
Is it just me or is the Rokh Really small compaired to the other BS's?
The Rokh has the sytle of a big ship but the actual model scaling doesnt own up.
Im just wondering if its the correct model in, dont want what happen to the carrier to happen to the new Battleship.
Personally I think the Rokh should match the Size of the Maelstrom.
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Kroesus Marginata
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:24:00 -
[153]
Hum, i haven't been on the test server yet because of the really crappy long line to get in, but i have seen some footage of the bs's.
I am only talking about 'the look' of the ships, not stats or anything. I whould like to say the caldari bs, is not really caldari enough looking the bs HAS SYMITRY! If you look at the rest of ALL the caldari ship, non are symetrical. I'd really like to see this ship made to look better, as i love the caldari look
Second, teh minmatar bs, again, doesn't follow the cool srappy look, it's to clean, it need bitz sticking out and random parts added to make it look interesting.
Third, the ammar bs, i must say is fine, it follows the design pricipal so far, but yea as far as i hear you guys aren't happy with the stats *I'm not commenting on that*
And as for the gallentian bs's, it's just a a megathron with a different look, it's almost like a navy issue mega if i might say, it's not much different, a little dissapointing.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:27:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Kroesus Marginata And as for the gallentian bs's, it's just a a megathron with a different look, it's almost like a navy issue mega if i might say, it's not much different, a little dissapointing.
Hyperion doesn't have the model ready yet -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar Vril Werke Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:40:00 -
[155]
@Maelstrom
There has to be a better solution than this ****ty HP bonus that some people demand. I may be wrong but it feels incredibly boring to have a ship that gains unresisted shield hps per BS lvl.
I know this isn't very constructive but i see the same people posting the same sugestions all the time though a simple shield hp bonus doesn't feel that great. Tbh i would prefer the sucky existing Boost Bonus over the suggested 10% shield HP increase. But that's not a solution either. Why can't we have the 5% resist bonus ? Or just give it another offensive bonus?
And if you want to modify the current BS to give the Mael another role i definatly would make an AC boat out of her. Why ? Because it looks speedy... good argument eh :P
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:42:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks And if you want to modify the current BS to give the Mael another role i definatly would make an AC boat out of her. Why ? Because it looks speedy... good argument eh :P
it is an option -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:46:00 -
[157]
The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari.
It makes it a good fleet ship AND has the option for ACs if people want to go that rout. I'd prefer a damage bonus but meh a RoF bonus isn't the end of teh world.
The Abaddon could use a bit more cap too but other than that its pretty good.
More power grid on the Hyperion.
Rokh is about as nice and balanced as you would ask for from a caldari rail boat.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 13:52:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks @Maelstrom
There has to be a better solution than this ****ty HP bonus that some people demand. I may be wrong but it feels incredibly boring to have a ship that gains unresisted shield hps per BS lvl.
I know this isn't very constructive but i see the same people posting the same sugestions all the time though a simple shield hp bonus doesn't feel that great. Tbh i would prefer the sucky existing Boost Bonus over the suggested 10% shield HP increase. But that's not a solution either. Why can't we have the 5% resist bonus ? Or just give it another offensive bonus?
And if you want to modify the current BS to give the Mael another role i definatly would make an AC boat out of her. Why ? Because it looks speedy... good argument eh :P
so sayith the guy in an empire pirate alliance that sit on sentries day in and day out hugging low sec borders where the 7.5% boost bonus would most definately give even the lowest SP pirate an advantage to tanking sentry fire.
That is what the raven and scorpions are for.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Freakdevil
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Posted - 2006.10.27 14:22:00 -
[159]
Day 2: Hyperion
Pros: 1. Slot config rocks 2. Armor hp 3. DMG Bonus is excellent
Cons: 1. Extremely cap hungry 2. Agility is too low 3. Drone bay is too small (125 required) 4. Grid is too low
After testing tanked / ganked setup, clearly the tanker won. I fought a very high skilled Maelstrom who had T2 guns/ammo close range. It was very close fight but I won with only T1 guns.
Tracking disruptor 4TW
But then he whooped my butt in his Hurricane vs the new Gallente drone boat (forget the name).
I plan to test the Rokh today to see if I can make it a fast sniper |
Phenom Fighter
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:11:00 -
[160]
Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?
They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...
Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's. -----------------------------
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:16:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Grimpak meh.. nifel has a point but I still would give a dmg+shield hp bonus to the maelstorm, while improving agility of the tempest.
*queue in nifel screaming "OMFG YOU FOO! STOP SCREAMING BABBLING STUFF! YOU SUCK YADDA YADDA"*
ok, why do I say that dmg+shield hp would be better:
we have the typhoon as the minmatar close range slugger. doesn't have that much grid, but instead has a more bigger flexibility in his firepower since it's based in 3 weapon systems(guns+missiles+drones). however to use the 3 systems in full power it needs to go short range, which means mwd, and using armor tanking in his 7 lowslots.
typhoon = close-range slugger with flexible firepower. Only change I would give would be a bit more grid tbh.
this is not versatility, this is crapness... split weapon system is all but versatile, why so many phoon pilot don't use turrets and 1 of the ship bonuses at all?
you have 2 weapon systems that behave very differently the with different pro and cons... the problem is that the way it is now you get mostly the cons from them and is very problematic to upgrade their damage...
1 damage mod to upgrade 4 weapons (vs 7-8 of most turret bs)
1 rig to upgrade 4 weapons (vs 7-8 of most turret bs)
so plz stop with this misunderstanding, split weapon system is all but versatile
Originally by: Grimpak
now the tempest. Tempest, while less flexible in the firepower department, a bigger ammount of med slots allows hime to be more flexible in other departments, whether is able to shield tank, or going armor tanking with Ewar gadgetry in the meds. Boost agility a bit and what do we have? A flexible, agile gunship that can go short range hit-n-run with mild Ewar, or a hit-n-run sniper, used as fire support in smaller gangs.
tempest = multi-range gunship with better flexibility due to more medslots. Here the boost would be an increase of the ship's agility.
tempest imo is fine as it is now, a bit more speed/agility can help, but this is for all minnie bs, wich minimal speed bonus generally doesn't really matter.
Originally by: Grimpak
Then we have the maelstrom. Supposed to be a big, fat, sluggish whale with no better agility of a raven. Supposed to be a fleet ship. But tempest is already a very good fleet ship, why putting the maelstrom ingame? Well, changing the bonuses accordingly (+5% dmg + 10% shield hp) we have a ship that, while does not give better DoT than the tempest, it overcomes it in alpha-strike ability. No better than the tempest in all fields, but different.
Maelstrom = fat whale with big durability, bigger alpha strike, and sucky DoT. This is done by changing the RoF + shield boost to damage + shield hp.
damage mod is bad... alpha is dead, is useless to have a damage mod that gives less dps than rof...
with your changes i think the mael will do less dps than a pest and this is a nono... all t3 bs do more damage than t1-t2 why the minnie one should be gimped?
minnie ships need ROF bonus because the base dps of proj is quite crappy so the best dps mod is needed.
before various HP boosts alpha was viable and effective in some circumstances... after all these boosts it lost all its effectiveness (exept against frigs :P)
if arty will get a base damage mod of +50% (with rof reduce to keep similar dps) then i can see the 5% to damage as a good bonus... but as it is not the case and (probably) it will never be, such bonus will just gimp a ship
Originally by: Grimpak
so summing it up:
you want close range pwnage with multiple gun systems -> typhoon you want a flexible and agile gunship proficient in both short and long range -> tempest you want a battleship that ditches speed and agility for better alpha and durability -> maelstrom
as said phoon is versatility is a "myth", and alpha is no more effective...
mael need shield boost converted to shield hps, phoon needs split weapon to go away, minnies need pror revamped
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Paladineguru
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:17:00 -
[162]
I think we want bs's that fill roles that dont exist within our race more than anything. for instance a decent gallente missle platform since the domi handle ew and drones nicely and the megathron can do either ranged or close in
it looks like the only one they got right first time out was the caldari.
amar need something that can actually do decent dps
and the minmatar could use a drone platform.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:31:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Grimpak on 27/10/2006 15:33:16
Originally by: Ath Amon stuff edited to fit in post
don't agree with that. only case where such thing happens is in amarr. Gallente has an half assed blaster boat for tier3 while tier2, wich is not supposed to be a blaster boat, is better at that role, and raven does more damage than rohk.
wich brings the point that Phenom fighter stated:
Originally by: Phenom Fighter Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?
They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...
Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.
and I also believe that alpha is not dead. Tux said they want to increase the 1400's dmg by 5% or so, which brings to the fact that an howie abbadon/apoc will do the same alpha as a maelstorm if it has RoF instead damage.
Stop thinking in DPS/DoT wise. Fighting should not be in favor of who can make more damage alone.
as for the phoon, never said that weapon versatility was a good thing. however, since you are doing a DPS/DoT comparision, go check the graphs where a fully armed typhoon (T2 AC/siege + T2 ogres) beats the tempest in damage. it does. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:58:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Grimpak
don't agree with that. only case where such thing happens is in amarr. Gallente has an half assed blaster boat for tier3 while tier2, wich is not supposed to be a blaster boat, is better at that role, and raven does more damage than rohk.
wich brings the point that Phenom fighter stated:
Originally by: Phenom Fighter Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?
They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...
Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.
i agree but minnies can't really do that for different things... minnie EW is crappy and proj dps are so low that they need rof to be comparable to other weapons with no dmg mods.
so a proj to be comparable with a +rof laser or a +dmg hybrid need 2 dmg mods (and we are out ship bonuses)
this imo "gimp" all the possibility to design versatile ships... as you always end up there...
also consider that probably new ships probably do around 10-20% more damage than previous ships... to have the tempest (that had alredy damage problems compared to other ship) as the main minnie dps turret boat will be a bit ehm... problematic
Originally by: Grimpak
and I also believe that alpha is not dead. Tux said they want to increase the 1400's dmg by 5% or so, which brings to the fact that an howie abbadon/apoc will do the same alpha as a maelstorm if it has RoF instead damage.
but they will do less dps who is the main factor... they want to have same alpha? ok... the cost is crappy dps.
Originally by: Grimpak
Stop thinking in DPS/DoT wise. Fighting should not be in favor of who can make more damage alone.
is quite the opposite, if ships had not the 50% hps boost then it was viable... so is not that i'm narrow minded and think all in dps (even if dps is a veeeeery important factor and generally dps is the main parameter in weapon graphs) the problem is that with such hp boost the alpha lost its effectiveness... your hits are 35% less effective (if i'm not wrong) and for a parameter that focus on instant damage it equals to a nerf into oblivion, probably we are going to fight against ships with 40-50k total hps to have a damage mod of 10 instead of 8 will not mean anything
Originally by: Grimpak
as for the phoon, never said that weapon versatility was a good thing. however, since you are doing a DPS/DoT comparision, go check the graphs where a fully armed typhoon (T2 AC/siege + T2 ogres) beats the tempest in damage. it does.
the phoon beat the pest just because the pest can't use heavy drones... also the phoon can beat just the pest (and maybe the scorp) as every other bs, with a decent setup and a dmg mod or 2 beat the phoon by a good margin
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:09:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Paladineguru
amar need something that can actually do decent dps
amarr already have decent dps with the geddon. supposedly tux will try and fix the enam problem so laser damage should improve again.
we do _not_ need a better version of the apoc or geddon and we do _not_ need a ship that can chose to be either a better apoc or a better geddon.
see my suggestions some posts above for possible solutions to this problem.
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:18:00 -
[166]
Been thinking it over and have come up with an idea.
1 role for each BS in each race that is an extension of cruiser roles a bit.
Amarr Geddon - ganking ship using its lasers, the amarr fleet ship, and main damage dealer. Apoc - Great tank, low dps, epitome of Amarr veiwpoint of war, heavy tanking ship. Still probably better used with projectiles though. Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).
Caldari - They got this race right Raven - Missle ship - Caracal big brother Scorp - ECM boat and good tank - BB big brother Rokh - Fleet rail boat. - Moa big brother
Gallente - Domi - great drone ship, big brother of the vexor Mega - Good blater ship, good rail ship. A nice balanced ship. Thorax big brother Hyp - Should be and Ewar boat with a sensor damp bonus, and maybe an ROF bonus able to fit a good tank. Have not figured out the other bonus as of yet.
One problem - the best fleet rail user will be Caldari. Although i do feel this fits in with role of gallente. They dont really have any great snipers in other classes of ships easier, but they mega makes a good platform for it.
Matari - This gets tricky (why people dont like Target painters) Phoon - Becomes an all around ship with a TP bounus. But a 10% bonus. It then gets an ROF bonus to all weapon turrets. Meaning it would get a bonus to missile launchers, lasers, hybrids and projectiles. The phoon would become the ultimate jack of all trades. I dont think that it would be to over powered because without a bonus to cap usage on weapons, it will not be that great with lasers. So basically the phoon gets the same 2 bonuses it has, plus a TP bonus. Making it an ewar ship, but reognizing that TP is not on par with the other races EWAR.
Tempest - Fleet artilery ship. Give it one more turret, increase PG to accomodate. Keep it the same.
Mael - Big brother of the stabber, even looks fast like the stabber More speed then the phoon, with better handling. Keep its layout and bonuses.
I don't know if this would work out but i think this would make people happy, and give each ship its role, rather then having the
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:44:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Serapis Aote Been thinking it over and have come up with an idea.
1 role for each BS in each race that is an extension of cruiser roles a bit.
Amarr Geddon - ganking ship using its lasers, the amarr fleet ship, and main damage dealer. Apoc - Great tank, low dps, epitome of Amarr veiwpoint of war, heavy tanking ship. Still probably better used with projectiles though. Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).
Caldari - They got this race right Raven - Missle ship - Caracal big brother Scorp - ECM boat and good tank - BB big brother Rokh - Fleet rail boat. - Moa big brother
Gallente - Domi - great drone ship, big brother of the vexor Mega - Good blater ship, good rail ship. A nice balanced ship. Thorax big brother Hyp - Should be and Ewar boat with a sensor damp bonus, and maybe an ROF bonus able to fit a good tank. Have not figured out the other bonus as of yet.
One problem - the best fleet rail user will be Caldari. Although i do feel this fits in with role of gallente. They dont really have any great snipers in other classes of ships easier, but they mega makes a good platform for it.
Matari - This gets tricky (why people dont like Target painters) Phoon - Becomes an all around ship with a TP bounus. But a 10% bonus. It then gets an ROF bonus to all weapon turrets. Meaning it would get a bonus to missile launchers, lasers, hybrids and projectiles. The phoon would become the ultimate jack of all trades. I dont think that it would be to over powered because without a bonus to cap usage on weapons, it will not be that great with lasers. So basically the phoon gets the same 2 bonuses it has, plus a TP bonus. Making it an ewar ship, but reognizing that TP is not on par with the other races EWAR.
Tempest - Fleet artilery ship. Give it one more turret, increase PG to accomodate. Keep it the same.
Mael - Big brother of the stabber, even looks fast like the stabber More speed then the phoon, with better handling. Keep its layout and bonuses.
I don't know if this would work out but i think this would make people happy, and give each ship its role, rather then having the
I love you.
+infinity
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. |
Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:57:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Originally by: Serapis Aote Been thinking it over and have come up with an idea.
1 role for each BS in each race that is an extension of cruiser roles a bit.
Amarr Geddon - ganking ship using its lasers, the amarr fleet ship, and main damage dealer. Apoc - Great tank, low dps, epitome of Amarr veiwpoint of war, heavy tanking ship. Still probably better used with projectiles though. Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority). [...]
signed with 3jear old amarr-only blood.
I love lasers and thick armor plates, but enough is enough, i want to be able to fight below 160km, too...
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:58:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne amarr already have decent dps with the geddon. supposedly tux will try and fix the enam problem so laser damage should improve again.
we do _not_ need a better version of the apoc or geddon and we do _not_ need a ship that can chose to be either a better apoc or a better geddon.
see my suggestions some posts above for possible solutions to this problem.
Exactely my thoughts. Please, do it right for once and don't add just another turret ship. Look at caldari! That's how it should be.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar Vril Werke Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.27 18:33:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Vengarioth Skullshanks on 27/10/2006 18:34:21
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
so sayith the guy in an empire pirate alliance that sit on sentries day in and day out hugging low sec borders where the 7.5% boost bonus would most definately give even the lowest SP pirate an advantage to tanking sentry fire.
That is what the raven and scorpions are for.
You sure have your nose quiet up and high haven't you. You see my alliance ticker but in fact you know nothing about me. And fyi a plain pest tanks sentrys just great.
All i want is a tier 3 BS every matari can look forward to. And i'm concerned that a Rof/10%hp increase, or the current hp boost bonus just won't cut it.
For Fleets it's hardly an improvement over a Tempest like already many stated. And for short range again a tempest has the better slot layout and agility. Now how to improve the thing without making the pest obsolete ?
A dmg/5% resi bonus would make her a very good fleet ship. (Oh no it's the caldari bonus and therefore overpowered :)).
On the other hand if it keeps the active boost bonus it imo needs another medslot. And yes, active tanking has no place in fleetcombat so why bother with it? For the sake of versatility? At least it will give it a strong tank in shortrange engagements.
Now the proposed rof/hp bonus will make it a slightly improved fleetship over the tempest hardly worth it. Well it always has its looks speaking for it...
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.10.27 18:42:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Nyxus on 27/10/2006 18:44:10 @ Maelstrom: Kaylana and Grim have it right on target. Give it +dam and +10% shield hp per level to tweak it so it is balanced and interesting.
The Abaddon, as Uldyr & Crew have already pointed out, the overall ship concept needs a slight rework. I agree with them, they are right. +dam over +rof for starters. But aside from all that, it has another issue that is just as pressing.
ABADDON NEEDS A GRID INCREASE FROM 21000 TO 24000
While Megabeams and 1400mm arties have the same grid, so the Maelstrom and Abaddon need the same grid for guns, the Maelstrom is a shield tanker (it has more CPU) and the Abaddon is an armor tanker. As such it should have more pg.
Furthermore, 24000pg would allow the Abaddon to fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs @ AWU 5 with 300pg left over. That is balanced. Geddon/Apoc need 2 rcu IIs just to fit Tachys. Abaddon should be able to do it slightly better since it seems to be designed as a fleet ship.
Forcing an armor tanker to have the same PG as a shield tanker when fitting comparable weapons does not make sense, nor is it balanced.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:45:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Nyxus The Abaddon, as Uldyr & Crew have already pointed out, the overall ship concept needs a slight rework. I agree with them, they are right. +dam over +rof for starters. But aside from all that, it has another issue that is just as pressing.
ABADDON NEEDS A GRID INCREASE FROM 21000 TO 24000
While Megabeams and 1400mm arties have the same grid, so the Maelstrom and Abaddon need the same grid for guns, the Maelstrom is a shield tanker (it has more CPU) and the Abaddon is an armor tanker. As such it should have more pg.
Furthermore, 24000pg would allow the Abaddon to fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs @ AWU 5 with 300pg left over. That is balanced. Geddon/Apoc need 2 rcu IIs just to fit Tachys. Abaddon should be able to do it slightly better since it seems to be designed as a fleet ship.
Forcing an armor tanker to have the same PG as a shield tanker when fitting comparable weapons does not make sense, nor is it balanced.
Nyxus
sometimes I don't like the posts about amarrian balance that you post. however I must agree that a race that is usually 2nd or 3rd in grid size can have a ship that equals the race that usually has the highest grid of all.
Boost abbaddon grid and give it like 25% to 30% more cap. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Bruja Negra
Amarr Brujeria Teologica
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:08:00 -
[173]
One thing, as has already been pointed out, Abbadon needs more cap and yet , what I really feel we Amarrian ship users need is a new Ewar/Drone BS. No, I dont want an Uberdominix Amarrian style. Yes, an Arbitrator gone Battleship for us would be great, perhaps even totally perfect, but in the end, we need a REAL change, not a mere refilling. I feel like I asked for a Super Mega Deluxe Hamburger and got a plain kid's meal dressed in fancy colours.
Now, placing things in perspective, and the way it has been proven on many forum discussions before, The Arbitrator Hull on it's new incarnations as recon ships are Hot not only cuz they look segzy and use drones, but due to damage versatility. Take that, SEE THAT please, and give us a new Abbadon arbitrator style, or something like it. Heck I would even love a 5% drone hp-dmg instead of the usual 10% , but that's better than nothing, cuz the abbadon as it is now , to avoid using a phrase like "teh suq" , let's just say it's: "not entirely up to expectations".
Tux? You really out there listening to us in this thread?
I don't think I'm the only one one asking for a new Arbi BS, and If you don't want to give us one, you can at least give us something like it.
All in all , the Abbadon is ... spilled porridge.
Versatility for the Amarr, not more of the same, even decadent empires innovate every once in a while.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:44:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Phenom Fighter Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?
They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...
Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.
And that is the crux of the problem with the Tier3 battleships that are not the Rokh:
Either make them appreciably better -or- appreciably diffrent. It has to be one or the other.
6.7% better and a random bonus because you couldn't think of anything is not sufficent grounds for a new battleship.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.27 23:17:00 -
[175]
i would give a bs sized arbitrator the standard +10% drone dmg/hp bonus because like the arbi it would be a support ship with a td bonus (optimal instead of efficiency). so its lasers cant have the -10% cap use bonus as well, making the use of lasers on the ship not that much of a good idea. so i would stick with the arbi design where drones are used as the main (and sometimes only) source of damage. then add a low number (for its class) of turret and launcher hardpoints (without bonuses on them) and at least 1x utility highslot.
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Nebrin
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:27:00 -
[176]
Abbadon needs to have a cap recharge rate bonus, as it is the 8 lasers are going to drain that faster than a fat kid with a slurpy.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:32:00 -
[177]
a question concerning the Hyperion, gallente seem not too happy about it when comparing to the megathron
but when i compare it to the tempest i cant help but wonder that its a great BS
it got same mass, 10 m/s less base speed, a 35% bigger cap than tempest, 28% bigger cap than mega (granted similar recharge rate), better tankability, much better dmg (even with electrons), same scan resolution even compared to mega you are faster with more initial cap at hand and you will most likely waste less cap getting close to your target than mega cause you are more agile/faster
with 5 mids you can use double web and dont have to worry about tracking
while i agree that the armour rep bonus is rather weak if compared to resistance bonus, does that ship need more?
as to being similar to mega, i am afraid every ship designed to be a blasterboat will have similarities, atleast in this case you can choose btw the bigger glasscannon with neutrons (mega) or a slightly more survivable on with electrons(hype) and doubleweb
I could be wrong but hype doesnt look nearly as bad to me
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 06:02:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Tiuwaz a question concerning the Hyperion, gallente seem not too happy about it when comparing to the megathron
but when i compare it to the tempest i cant help but wonder that its a great BS
it got same mass, 10 m/s less base speed, a 35% bigger cap than tempest, 28% bigger cap than mega (granted similar recharge rate), better tankability, much better dmg (even with electrons), same scan resolution even compared to mega you are faster with more initial cap at hand and you will most likely waste less cap getting close to your target than mega cause you are more agile/faster
with 5 mids you can use double web and dont have to worry about tracking
while i agree that the armour rep bonus is rather weak if compared to resistance bonus, does that ship need more?
as to being similar to mega, i am afraid every ship designed to be a blasterboat will have similarities, atleast in this case you can choose btw the bigger glasscannon with neutrons (mega) or a slightly more survivable on with electrons(hype) and doubleweb
I could be wrong but hype doesnt look nearly as bad to me
You hit the nail on the head.
The Hyperion looks like a -very- good ship.
The Megathron is for a fact a -very- good ship.
The problem is that they are good ships for the -same- reasons.
I want a new ship, not a re-mix of the Megathron. When they said it was going to be a blaster boat, my reaction was: "well ok, lets see what the 'next level' of dedicated blaster ship is."
Well, now they have unveiled it, and my reaction is: "hey wtf, that's a Megathron with a spoiler and a racing stripe, you said we were getting a -new- ship. Like how the Caldari got the Rokh."
The reactions to the Abaddon and Maelstorm seem to be in a similar vein.
They either need to make the ships better -or- diffrent. Right now they are kinda sorta barely better, but not really, and diffrent if your defining diffrent as not being an identical copy.
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Akiman
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Posted - 2006.10.28 07:35:00 -
[179]
why hyperion got the lowest(i think) pg? we are the ones who needs to fit mwd right? and blasters needs much pg and that ship has 6 lows so fitting rcu IIs will suck.HEY! i dont want to fit little electrons ok?...6 lows man!...any ideas?
im alright wih the drone bay even you can drop it to 75 m3 but OD something bout pg and agility!!!!1111
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 07:48:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10 The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.
What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)
*edit*
Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
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HeyLookHere
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Posted - 2006.10.28 08:12:00 -
[181]
Quote: Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).
I completely agree that amarr need something different that the usuall laser-based ships, but i also feel that 'Big Arbitrator' in it's current proposed design would be a mistake. From what most people are saying they want it to be a ship with drone hp bonus instead of damage so Dominix still remains a top drone boat - but why on earth would you want a weaker version of Dominix that costs almost 3 times as much?? Ok so it's not an exact copy of a diminix but instead a ship where drones are only a part of it's design and the second part is EW - but imo a tracking disruptor bonus doesnt make much difference - jammers are still better even after the patch...Compared to Rokh it wouldnt be worth the money.
Abaddon as it is right now can be a great sniper or close up fighter( as the damage graphs already show )if it had the cap to actually fire it's guns for longer than 1-2mins...I dont see a clear solution to this problem - devs can increase cap size or recharge rate, that would certainly help but for some reason i doubt they would do that because it would also affect repairers and make it an overpowered tanker with it's 5% resistance bonus. .If they did that people would just use it as a replacement for apoc and use projectiles to get rid of laser cap problems...( thats a waste of rof bonus yes but the added tanking and 8 turrets would make up for that - with increased hp of ships the built in resistance bonus is very noticeable pluss with less grid usage you can now fit projectile damage rigs, and furthermore when ships are used like that it just shows how broken they really are) Decreasing cap use on all lasers would require a redesign of the whole amarrian ship line and bonuses and i wont even get into that right now...Changing one of the bonuses could help but what would the changed bonus be?? 10% Optimal and cap use per level is an interesting idea but it would be a whole different ship and i cant really comment on that... Balancing it out so that the other 2 battleships dont become useless is also an issue...
I'd personally very much like a t1 Bhaalgorn with 5 mids , Nos/Neut and Damage/Rof Bonus and 5-6guns - it' wont deal as much damage as a geddon and wouldnt be such an uber tank as apoc, but would be somewhat unique ( not many players have isk for faction ships but this way we'll have a ship with such bonuses readily avaiable) But sadly there is a problem - if there are any nos system changes in the future the ship may become less usefull. Still i'd chose this idea over the overpriced ( and gimped) drone boat.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 08:21:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10 The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.
What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)
*edit*
Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.
1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 08:54:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10 The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.
What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)
*edit*
Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.
1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.
Numbers to support this? (Let's say I won't be able to reply on Sunday.... might still be around when you reply to this. Thought you were more EU TZ).
I did some myself and there's about a 10 hp/s difference at the most (for useful setups at least). Nothing earth-shattering, I just don't see how it'd be overpowered.
For example: XL Shield Booster II + natural shield recharge rate with nothing added to it gives you roughly 158.4 hp/s. XL Shield Booster II + the 7.5 Shield boost bonus gives you 165 hp/s. Given that both of them uses the same amount of energy and the hp boost gives less hp/s I don't see why it shouldn't stay at 1500.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.28 09:10:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 27/10/2006 18:44:10 @ Maelstrom: Kaylana and Grim have it right on target. Give it +dam and +10% shield hp per level to tweak it so it is balanced and interesting.
The Abaddon, as Uldyr & Crew have already pointed out, the overall ship concept needs a slight rework. I agree with them, they are right. +dam over +rof for starters. But aside from all that, it has another issue that is just as pressing.
ABADDON NEEDS A GRID INCREASE FROM 21000 TO 24000
While Megabeams and 1400mm arties have the same grid, so the Maelstrom and Abaddon need the same grid for guns, the Maelstrom is a shield tanker (it has more CPU) and the Abaddon is an armor tanker. As such it should have more pg.
Furthermore, 24000pg would allow the Abaddon to fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs @ AWU 5 with 300pg left over. That is balanced. Geddon/Apoc need 2 rcu IIs just to fit Tachys. Abaddon should be able to do it slightly better since it seems to be designed as a fleet ship.
Forcing an armor tanker to have the same PG as a shield tanker when fitting comparable weapons does not make sense, nor is it balanced.
Nyxus
i hope they hear you. I couldnt say it better
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.28 09:35:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.
I think you need to back this up with numbers instead of jedi powers. Im not very good at math, but if someone here is, I would like a comparison of the effective tanking of the Rohks resistance bonus compared to the extra shield hp suggested for the Maelstrom.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:05:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 10:06:51
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.
I think you need to back this up with numbers instead of jedi powers. Im not very good at math, but if someone here is, I would like a comparison of the effective tanking of the Rohks resistance bonus compared to the extra shield hp suggested for the Maelstrom.
Easy example:
10000 shield.
actual shields: hp: 15000 res: 10000
effective shields for em damage: hp: 15000 res: 13333
time to fully repair shields with 1x XL Shield Booster II including passive shield recharge at maximum (it never is at fully maximum all the time but I don't have the time to do more intricate math here): hp: 104 sec (1500 recharge rate) res: 75.75 sec (2000 recharge rate)
Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:19:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Nebrin Abbadon needs to have a cap recharge rate bonus, as it is the 8 lasers are going to drain that faster than a fat kid with a slurpy.
and which bonus is it supposed to give up for that?
here are your options: a) laser rof & cap recharge -> if the cap recharger bonus is good enough to compensate for the lasers what you get here is a more clearly defined bettter-geddon.
b) cap recharge & 5% armor resists -> and here you get a more clearly visible better-apoc.
also: cap recharge default bonus is 5% iirc. at lvl4 thats 20% -> the same as one cpr. fitting just one cpr is not gonna save the ship even if its the faction version with 25%.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:27:00 -
[188]
Abbadon
Quite a few people have been asking for a drone boat, but how does a teir 3 drone boat not be stronger than the Dominix?
8 high slots, 8 turret hard points. 15% per level reduction in laser cap use. 200m3 drone bay 20% per level increase in drone armour hp
Here you need to use the guns and drones in combination to do the damage. You get really good cap reduction on lasers so you can fit 8 lasers and fire them along with the drones, but with no damage bonus on either you do need to use them in combination to get the job done.
You have enough drone bay to fit a few replacement drones and your drones themselves are pretty hard to kill.
Zarch AlDain
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:32:00 -
[189]
Originally by: HeyLookHere but imo a tracking disruptor bonus doesnt make much difference - jammers are still better even after the patch
tracking disruptors actually work quiet well and if you give it a 20% td optimal range bonus (like the scorp gets for ecm) you can reach up to snipe range and reduce the optimal of those ships. they will then have to either come closer or try and jam/td you.
assuming you have 5 medslots you will propably need 2x sensorboosters to lock those longrange enemies. that would leave 3 slots for td allowing you to reduce the optimal of 3 ships sitting far off or stack them on one ship for a greater reduce at closer range. on short range the effect would be a good as an the td from an arbi but seeing how battleships dont start out with the best tracking anyway i think it would still be good enough. sounds like a pretty decent ewar-bonus to me tbh.
of course if you fit an eccm or a speedmod yourself this could be only 2x td max.
regarding the drone bonus: an arbi relies on drones for the majority of its damage. a bs sized version should too to keep it seperate from the domi.
also: a nos/neut+ lasers ship could also be nice as it would also provide something new for us.
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Mr Bright
untaught THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:45:00 -
[190]
I got one note on the Marlstrom, think i have noted it in another thread as well - but its an interesting observation so I think is okay to repeat it here.
The difference in fleet ops between a maelstrom and a tempest is very simple - low skills the maelstrom wins on alpha/DPS, but pays for it with higer cost and lower mobility (agility/speed). But a high skilled player (BS5) would be better of in a tempest, the damage/alpha strike difference is minimal - but the mobility is better and the cost is lower.
All it sums up to is this, for fleet ops high skilled players with a tempest. Quick movement, better agility, lower cost - why would anyone with BS5 pick a fat slow expensive Maelstrom instead?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:49:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/10/2006 10:50:42
Originally by: Nifel
Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.
Good post. Makes me want that resistance bonus for the Maelstrom tbh, because its actually also much more versatile than the shield hp bonus imo. CCP keep saying versatile for minmatar, but doesnt really back it up with bonuses. A shield resist bonus is versatile, a shield boost or hp bonus is not, because it locks the ships tanking into one option only to take advantage of it.
Its very bad to be competing with caldari for bonuses...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:10:00 -
[192]
I doubt either is going to happen, they seem to have decided that caldari get shield resist/hp or nothing, matari get shield boost, amarr get armor resist and gallente rep boost. *shrug* ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Soratah
Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:00:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain Abbadon
Quite a few people have been asking for a drone boat, but how does a teir 3 drone boat not be stronger than the Dominix?
8 high slots, 8 turret hard points. 15% per level reduction in laser cap use. 200m3 drone bay 20% per level increase in drone armour hp
Here you need to use the guns and drones in combination to do the damage. You get really good cap reduction on lasers so you can fit 8 lasers and fire them along with the drones, but with no damage bonus on either you do need to use them in combination to get the job done.
You have enough drone bay to fit a few replacement drones and your drones themselves are pretty hard to kill.
That sounds like the best idea considering it's low turret dps then most people will be fitting it pretty much like the Apoc for the tanking.
To be honest though, with Amarr BS5 then it'll have the same tanking resists as a navy issue apoc. We'll just fit heavy nos making it the same as the Nos-Domi..
However, it's current incarnation is quite frankly ****-poor. Tracking disruption and drones are still the best way to go. If you look at the module you can see huge bay doors on the bow of the ship.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:10:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Soratah However, it's current incarnation is quite frankly ****-poor. Tracking disruption and drones are still the best way to go. If you look at the module you can see huge bay doors on the bow of the ship.
When I first saw the concept art, I was sure it had to be a drone boat. Sadly I was wrong.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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sherbert lemon
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:19:00 -
[195]
Edited by: sherbert lemon on 28/10/2006 12:20:47 Edited by: sherbert lemon on 28/10/2006 12:20:26
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Ithildin As long as the Abaddon doesn't get a drone damage bonus, it can have as much drone bay as it pleases - it's not going to threaten the Dominix' position as top drone using battleship.
What about giving a really, i mean really good bonus to drone hitpoints (kinda fits with amarr. And giving it a larger drone bay the the Domi.
Although most people wouild probably prefer the hitpoint bonus.
/signed x1000
i think that is a splendid idea, ammarr desperately needs some diversity, i like lasers myself, but for those poor ammarrians who dont like lasers, what can they do, everyship is a laserboat, we have already got drones from the arbitrator, so its not a drastic change to amarr lifestyle, if we had a drone boat with bonuses to drone hitpoints which is very amarr-like and a fat drone bay but still less than the domi, we will have a gank BS a tank BS and a drone BS with less turret damage so one less high (and if over powered take a lowslot out).
also the cap issue may need a look at, CCP.
if these changes are applied i would think no amarrians can complain about the BS, just about being amarr, and it would maybe put us back in the game of eve as contenders, which is what the backstory wants!
----
Sherbo - inexperienced amarr pilot loving the game
before u flame me this is not an alt
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:25:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Forsch on 28/10/2006 12:25:18
I don't know.. a drone hp bonus doesn't sound too good to me. Would only help if the drones actually get shot at, which doesn't happen that often. Otherwise normal drones (without bonus) would be just as good. Usually drone boats have a drone hp + dmg bonus. But as I said, if that comes too close to the Dominix, why not give it: Bonus1 10% tracking disruptor optimal Bonus2 5% armor resist per level
A big drone bay but without bonus, kinda like the Typhoon. While being good at tanking and EW (tracking disruption in fleet fights).
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:37:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Forsch
I don't know.. a drone hp bonus doesn't sound too good to me. Would only help if the drones actually get shot at, which doesn't happen that often. Otherwise normal drones (without bonus) would be just as good. Usually drone boats have a drone hp + dmg bonus.
pretty much spot on. i've been using the arbi a alot and i think only 1 time someone tried to shoot at the drones. ah and there was one time over a year ago where i lost drones to a smartbomb.
Originally by: Forsch
But as I said, if that comes too close to the Dominix, why not give it: Bonus1 10% tracking disruptor optimal Bonus2 5% armor resist per level
A big drone bay but without bonus, kinda like the Typhoon. While being good at tanking and EW (tracking disruption in fleet fights).
this would be nice as well. however i think it needs 20% range like the scorp to actually reach long range battleships. would also need a fair share of launchers to compensate for the lack of laser cap use reduction.
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sherbert lemon
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:44:00 -
[198]
aha, i see what you mean, i personally am not a drone pilot, but i just thought it sounded good, was pleasing to the amarrians, and wasnt overpowering, but since you have proposed the tracking and EW bonus, i think i have come to a conclusion in my mind, i wont state it, just scroll up and read the two posts before this
o/
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 13:22:00 -
[199]
Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality. ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Aloysius Knight
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 13:29:00 -
[200]
8x t2 650mm
Named MWD T2 XL sheild booster 2 named invura fields 20km scrabler heavy cap injecter
3 T2 gyro DC T2 pdu
drone bay with web drones
hmmmm so how about making it like the cyclone and giving it 1 more mid http://www.stevie.prince.dsl.pipex.com/AloysiusKnight.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2107/nodecrashsiggb9.jpg Chose one, you must. Two is the way of pure ebilness, and pure ebilness is bad -ReverendM |
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Dristra
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Posted - 2006.10.28 14:51:00 -
[201]
ABADDON for no:1 drone boat!
it will silence all Amarr whiners forever too...
give it nos and drone bonus, just kidding, drones and armour will do fine, or even cap reduction and drones, as long as it has the drone bonus.
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FosterK
Caldari Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.28 15:34:00 -
[202]
Can someone please remind me what the skill bonuses are for the Rokh?
Can't get on Sisi, and need to do some range calculations for possible setups... Infact, has anyone got a screenie of all the stats? Ta.
A carebear's ideal vision of EVE... |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.28 15:40:00 -
[203]
Originally by: FosterK Can someone please remind me what the skill bonuses are for the Rokh?
Can't get on Sisi, and need to do some range calculations for possible setups... Infact, has anyone got a screenie of all the stats? Ta.
per level: 10% optimal 5% to shield resistances
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:25:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Kai Lae on 28/10/2006 16:27:08
Originally by: Aloysius Knight
8x t2 650mm Named MWD T2 XL sheild booster 2 named invura fields 20km scrabler heavy cap injecter
3 T2 gyro DC T2 pdu
drone bay with web drones
hmmmm so how about making it like the cyclone and giving it 1 more mid
The problem that seems to currently exist with the malestrom is that the shield boost bonus is not viable for fleet combat, and is only useful for smaller scale engagements. This limits the flexibility of the ship. The solution to this is IMO what Aloysius has stated above, to give the ship a 7th midslot. The problem currently is that since the active tank of the ship requires a shield booster in order to gain access to the bonus. This means that the ship only has 5 mids left to do everything else. CCP seems to have acknowlegded this fact when they gave the cyclone an additional midslot when the battlecruisers were redesigned. By adding a 7th mid, you can get an effective fleet ship by using another LSE II in this slot instead of a shield booster, setting up a rather large passive tank - which due to the unusually fast shield regeneration this ship would seem to have would make it even more effective. I would start by changing the slot layout to 8/7/4 (the rokh and maleststom have the same slot layout which is odd) but I also wouldn't put out of the realm of possibility that an additional mid should be added outright. In addition changing the bonus from ROF to damage should also fall under consideration since if it's supposed to be an artillery platform effort should be made toward ending the fight as quickly as possible, due to the fact that the longer a fight goes in an arty platform the worse off you generally are.
The other ship that would seem to need some help is the hyperion. I tried to set one of these up on the test server, only to run out of grid using a T1 ion setup - this while using a single rep as well. The hyperion's problem is simply that it has too little grid - in fact, it has less grid than the megathron, while having 1 less low slot to increase it with. What this means is currently if you use what I would think of as a standard setup on this ship - LAR II, heavy injector, guns - you're looking at electrons if you bother to put any kind of tank in the low slots instead of multiple grid boosting modules. If you compare it to the megathron it in fact has less powergrid than the mega, which makes no sense. The amount of power using modules on it is the same as the megathon, so there is no justification for this. The simple solution is to change the grid on this ship to fix this problem; maybe something in the 17k range. This should allow for fitting the ship as it should be designed and would make it as effective as it should be.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:37:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.
because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.
at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:41:00 -
[206]
Hey m8s, what are you talking about? I do not need any drone or EW boat for amarrians, and i am not alone.
Geddon - fleet dmgdealer, gang battleship. Not so expensive, but dangerous in closecombat Special Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level.
Apoc - i thik this ship must become a sniper Special Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level.
Abbadon - expensive fleet dmgdealer\soloplatform. All what we need - just incrace capcitor recharge and/or cap capcity. Special Ability: 5% Large Energy turret rate of fire per level. And 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:44:00 -
[207]
Exactely what can you do with the Abaddon that you cannot do with an Armageddon or Apocalypse?
Forsch Defender of the empire
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:05:00 -
[208]
Actualy no.
@ Geddon i have only 3 med slots, it not enough for solo. Apoc deal small dmg than mega for example. And apocs tank not mutch powerfull than mega.
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Imiarr Timshae
Roid Vandals
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:17:00 -
[209]
CCP have made these ships the way they are for a reason.
Live with it. -Imiarr Timshae-
-Pushing game mechanics since 04/03/2005- |
miss sixtty
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:24:00 -
[210]
Originally by: SpMind H Abbadon - expensive fleet dmgdealer\soloplatform. All what we need - just incrace capcitor recharge and/or cap capcity. Special Ability: 5% Large Energy turret rate of fire per level. And 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level
No sane amount of cap increase/recharge will make any diffirence with Abbadon problems. I mean, out of cap in 1 min or in 1m 15 sec - doesnt matter that much. And there is no way CCP will give it 2x cap. So its better to completely change it - and the idea with NOS bonus sounds very good. Something like 20% range and 10% amount per lvl with useall ROF bonus sounds about right.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.28 20:31:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Imiarr Timshae CCP have made these ships the way they are for a reason.
Live with it.
CCP have asked for feedback on them for a reason.
Live with it.
Dont know much about the other races so I'll leave the discussions on those who know what theyre talking about.
But can we please, pretty please, with sugar on top, make the Hype a better more usable blaster ship than the mega is already, or change its role completely, one of the two.
Atm the only place I can see the Hype being a better option to fly over the mega is for soloing.
In a gang neutronthron is great because most targets are already within neutron ranges, so you can instantly start doing damage, where as the Hype is going to be using electrons most likely which means very low optimal, this means youre going to have to travel to each target before opening fire, and once in range still put out less DPS than a neutronthron.
The ship is just competing with an existing ship trying to do the exact same role, but isnt any better at it than the current ship.
Whats the point?
CEO - Art of War
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 20:39:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.
because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.
at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.
You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.
Oversized EW support boats don't help IMO.
----------
- Office Linebacker -
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.10.28 20:49:00 -
[213]
Edited by: SpMind on 28/10/2006 20:53:18
Quote: No sane amount of cap increase/recharge will make any diffirence with Abbadon problems. I mean, out of cap in 1 min or in 1m 15 sec - doesnt matter that much. And there is no way CCP will give it 2x cap. So its better to completely change it - and the idea with NOS bonus sounds very good. Something like 20% range and 10% amount per lvl with useall ROF bonus sounds about right.
If Abbadon recive DMG not ROF + NOS bonus... sounds good. Maybe this is a way to fix this BS.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 21:00:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Illuminaty on 28/10/2006 21:03:08
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.
because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.
at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.
You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.
Oversized EW support boats don't help IMO.
Right. Because the whole Caldari Blackbird + Scorpion line is a total fiasco.
People fly both, and they would scream bloody murder if CCP tried to remove one or the other.
edit: You should also note that the one tier 3 BS that everyone seems to like is the Rokh, which funnily enough is the only tier 3 battleship that did follow the frig->cruiser->battlecruiser->battleship progression.
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Romulus Maximus
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 21:46:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Forsch YES to a big arbitrator.
Slots: 7/6/6, 4 turret, 3 launcher Drone bay: 175m¦ or 200m¦ (5 heavy, 5 medium and optional 5 light)
Bonus1: 10% per level for tracking disruptor optimal range Bonus2a: 10% drone hp/dmg per level Bonus2b: 5% armor resists per level
(This means either 2a or 2b. I'd prefer 2a but if that comes to close to the domi, 2b would be fine, too.)
Grid and cpu accordingly so stuff fits on it. Good armor, good sensor strength, long targeting range. Slow, big sig radius.
Sooo yea.. when could we get this?
Yep..sounds way better than what it is now tbh. The Pilgrim/Curse provided such an awesome role for Amarr tbh. The new BS should do something similar. Not just be similar to what we have, and fail to actually better it.
Make it a big Arbi ftw. 10% drone dmg per lvl and 5% armour resists. The cap bonus could be dropped, as no doubt it would be running a few nos. Please dont release it as it is, even IF u fix the huge problems. Ull only make it a working copy of what we have. Yes it has slight diferances, but nothing exciting or worht all the time and effort uve put into it. The Rokh is all new, this just sucks. Fix it pretty plz ! <3
Current RKK Ranking: (AMM14) Fleet Admiral - 900 kills
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Franga
Caldari ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.28 22:27:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.
because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.
at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.
You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.
Oversized EW support boats don't help IMO.
I'm fairly sure someone has said this before - but being a less expensive version of a larger ship is a role. One thing alot of people forget (particularly older players - not an insult, just an observation) is that not everyone is able to lose a 50-60mil ship with 20mil worth of fittings and not blink. The Blackbird is a great low-cost version of the Scorpion.
Scorpion = 60mil price, 20mil outfitting, 20mil insurance ... 100mil investment. Blackbird = 3mil price, 6mil outfitting, 1mil insurance ... 10mil investment.
Yes, the Blackbird is made out of construction paper - I'm aware. But it still fills a role and has slighty different bonuses. Then of course you have the Rook and Falcon - again, not something you're average 3-6month player is going to be able to fly or afford to lose. Hence - the Blackbird.
Also - not just the younger player but the casual player. You know the ones - been in the game for 2 years and then tell you they only have 6-8mil SP. It's part of the customer service keeping these ships around. ------------- Is it just me or am I amazing? It's just me? Damn. |
Deckert
Caldari Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2006.10.29 01:09:00 -
[217]
now all we need are ingame pictures of the tier battleship :)
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Johnny Bravo
Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.10.29 01:23:00 -
[218]
Originally by: SpMind Edited by: SpMind on 28/10/2006 20:53:18
If Abbadon recive DMG not ROF + NOS bonus... sounds good. Maybe this is a way to fix this BS.
No way. 1st, the alpha will be as high as on Tempest - no good. Second, 25% less cap (and 7% less potential DPS) will NOT change Abaddon problems that much. It will become the exact replica of Armageddon only 3x as expencive. Thought i agree what i would choose that if nothing else made - but its much better to change the ship completely like NOS bonus and large drone bay.
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Necronus
Amarr Monks of War
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Posted - 2006.10.29 01:34:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Necronus on 29/10/2006 01:40:23 Edited by: Necronus on 29/10/2006 01:35:52 Abaddon? Huh?
My opinion will not be new,exclusive or different from those above this thread.So i'll just write down my erotic fantasies about third amarrian Bs as everybody did :D
In the way it is now - it's almost useless. Here are some points:
Farming/Missions : Apoc is better,cause if you want to farm on a Abaddon you need to waste a more of slots on a capacitor boost that its counterparts (without any capa boost there is no chance in just shooting megapulse/tachybeam you'll loose all the cap in couple of minutes,and using of armor repairer seems like a insane idea) and even then you will have weaker dmg/tank then Apoc/Arma.
Dmg Dealing: Arma still stays the best damage dealer due to 5 heavy drones. And its 8 low slots seem a bit more attractive,then a 5% armor ressist. Tanking: Yep,Abaddon can tank better then Apoc or Arma,but who needs tanking if you cant do anything besides it? Maybe it can be useful in Complexes or with Ac setup (but thats another story going below).
PvP: The only way to use Abaddon in PvP in its current state is Fitting Autocannons and a nice tank(dont seem to be a True Amarrian way for me,kinda Gimp Prophecy mk2),or putting some low-grade guns and capacitor mods or booster(omg 12 spare boosters for such a nasty beast? It can barely last a fight due to armor increase in Kali) but that way Arma is doing those things just better and cheaper.(as i'm concerned those tier 3 bs will cost much more then tier 1)
Conclusion: So what do we have? A really expensive nice-looking 3d model that can be a brand new super uber exciting addition to you're mining operation. It will look so cool on that asteroid belt with all those yellow lasers(anyone tested if it has enought capacitor to use mining lasers and tank belts? (: )
Solutions that were posted above the thread:
1. Leave everything as it is,just increase the capacitor recharge rate or something like that.
Seems nice only for people who thinks that everyone fits amarr ships with lasers. Yeah it will make abaddon more useful with lasers,it will have enought capacitor to tank and kill, BUT if you fit projectiles it will be overpowered tank that has enought damage to deal with almost anybody. Don't seem to balanced to me. Just a dead end idea, imho.The only way to fix Abaddon Capacitor is to give him reduction in laser capacitor needs like all amarr ships do.Having this bonus as an extra will cause another disbalance,and giving it in exchange of one of its 2 bonuses will cause this ship to be similar to another amarr bs.
2. Big-Arbitrator. (I really like this idea just only because of the name,cause arbi is my most favourite ship.) But as far as i'm concerned CCP will not make critical changes in that ship. Abaddon model has 8 visual hardpoints in its 3d model. So they will have to leave it or change the model (i dont think it is likely to happen). Battleship class drone-carrier with 8 turret hardpoints can be a really overpowered thing even without a bonus to a guns. I think this is going to happen only if it will have a really nice penalty.(reduced grid so it cant fit 8 large guns without mods, no bonus on guns, reduced slots )
I think this idea has more chances to becоme a balanced one(with some stat experiments you will be able to make a nice ship,and gallente domi fans can hang themselfs on their underwear,cause it will never have same dronbay as domi anyway,that means no spare heavy waves,which will cause it to control drones with more concentration and attention,anyway Why shouldnt it be better then Domi? Domi is damn tier 1 bs (: ), but less chances to happen. I dont want to introduce my variations of stats on Abaddonix :D cause i'm really not so optimistic to see that happen.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 02:56:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.
maybe you should have read my big arbi suggestion then before you decided to comment. in actual fact it does not have the same ewar bonus that the arbitrator has and fills a different role.
the arbi cruiser gets 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level. it is very good for mid to close range use against turret ships. greatly reduces optimal and tracking. stick two of them on another cruiser in shortrange combat and try to gain some transversal and it will have trouble hitting you. can not reach snipers.
the bs sized arbi would instead get 20% optimal range for tds which would work like the scorpions 20% ecm optimal range and allow you to use the module against long range ships. the effect isnt as good as it is on the arbi but reaches further out. at long range you will mostly benefit from the reduced optimal range. forcing the enemy to change ammo or get in closer for good hits. at closer ranges the tracking reduction will also be of some help though not as good as on the arbi.
also: a bigger class ship with the same role does not make small class ships obsolete. if that was the case the following ships would be useless: amarr: omen, maller caldari: caracal, moa, blackbird gallente: thorax, vexor minmatar: rupture, stabber (just looking at t1 crusiers here but there are a lot more that fit your idea of obsolete)
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Soratah
Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.29 05:03:00 -
[221]
No word yet I see...
What are the odds that these ships will have the exact same bonii when they enter Tranq server?
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Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.29 06:57:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Rahjadan Shardur on 29/10/2006 07:03:24 Edited by: Rahjadan Shardur on 29/10/2006 07:02:29 My 0.02ISK as a Minmatar to the BS ballance: We minmatar are lacking behind in the BS field!
The Typhoon is too wide spread to be realy effective (except maybe as a Nanophoon, but that is the most expensive BS setup i know, for it demands faction stuff, and still doesn't use the gun Bonus). To make the Typhoon a loveabel ship give it one more launcher point and loose the gun bonus for a target painter bonus. It would now be a small Raven with a bit less damage and a bit less tank.
The Tempest is outdamaged by almost all other BS and needs one more turret to compete with the Megathron or the Armageddon. It would still lack in tank but there is no need to change that. (If you fear that a 7 gun Tempest would be overpowerd as a Sniper reduce the target range so it will not be abel to snipe. An other solution would be to give Minmatar the opportunity to cange damage types with t2 ammo as the can with t1 ammo.)
After these changes you would now be at the point the Gellante are today: The question "For what do we need another BS?"
The answer however is much easyer to find, for there would still not be a good Missionship in the Matari arsenal. For that the Mealstrom can be the suitabel ship, just give it one more Medslot to be a big Cyclone or do whatever you think would make it an alternative to the Raven in missions so that you do not have to train up Caldari for having an efficent Level-4-Mission-Ship. (And if you did the changes above the Mealstrom also needs to be the new Snipership)
------------------ Life is but a dream... |
Soratah
Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.10.29 07:24:00 -
[223]
Edited by: Soratah on 29/10/2006 07:42:01 I've always liked the look of the Typhoon. To be honest I've pictured the gaping maw of that ship to disgorge drones.
It's definitely a Jack-of-all-Trades ship though. Would be fun to add a +5% bonus to (choose from list when first piloting the phoon) so it could really do anything.
Drones obviously add to the dps of this ship so maybe a bonus centered around drones would also do.
Tempest in AC setup is a VERY high DPS ship, and it's much better (if not equal to the megathron in this regard). Close range combat is not the Amarrian way of life and their Battleships will always be outperformed in close range engagements.
The Rokh may have issues with range during PvP combat, but it's more of a Sniper than any Amarrian ship will be so it balances it. As well as the fact it'll be using sensible guns and not lasers
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.29 08:09:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 29/10/2006 08:10:57 i agree with phoon problems for its split weapon setup (as said many times) now even more as split approach will be even more inefficent due to rigs...
1 rig to boost 4 weapons with a single damage bonus vs ships that boost 7-8 weapons with just 1 rig...
i will like to see it turned into a "real bomber" with 6 missiles slots and the second ship bonus turned as a speed one...
for the tempest i don't think it will never get a 7th turret... 7 turrets with double bonuses means that it will outdamage the mael a thing that quite problematic looking at how t3 BS are designed.
instead i still hope proj will get some revamp to make them more viable...
edit... AC pest with very high dps? probably due to crap dps from proj and inability to use 5 heavy drones it is the lowest dps close range boat
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.10.29 08:11:00 -
[225]
Why all always say "if you fit projectiles @ abbadon or apoc". Why you did not say same about mega or tempest? why? Maybe lasers need a bit rethinkink?
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.29 08:20:00 -
[226]
Originally by: SpMind Why all always say "if you fit projectiles @ abbadon or apoc". Why you did not say same about mega or tempest? why? Maybe lasers need a bit rethinkink?
even if i think that lasers need some love i don't think is a right comparsion...
amarr ships have a great benefit from ACs in tank compartment as with proj they can use all their cap to build massive tank... they chose a crap dps for better tanking...
a minnie ship instead doesn't get same benefit from laser... first because cap usage (it have not the cap reducion) and second the benefit in dps will be not that great to justify the cap problems...
more or less proj + 1 rof (standard minnie bonus) is similar to laser whitout bonus dpswise so you see the ship will just use cap for no real benefit
it can be a bit different for 425mm... for the tempest it was not a good option as 1 1400mm + 2 bonus is clearly superior damagewise to a 425mm whitout any bonus, but for the mael it can be different.
1 1400mm + rof bonus is not that higher than a 425mm whitout bonus, and the 425mm have better range, tracking and fitting.
still probably will not be that common as for sure someone who can use 425mm T2 will spend a month training the rokh that outclasses the mael for both range and tanking.
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topman324
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.29 09:16:00 -
[227]
I have problems getting onto SiSi so I am unable to check out the t3 BS myself, if any of you have had got chance to get on, can you list the skill requirements for the t3 BS. I have Gallente BS V already, I just need to know if I need to train anything else before the Hyperion comes out. Thanks alot :)
Topperz
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
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Posted - 2006.10.29 09:29:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.
maybe you should have read my big arbi suggestion then before you decided to comment. in actual fact it does not have the same ewar bonus that the arbitrator has and fills a different role.
the arbi cruiser gets 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level. it is very good for mid to close range use against turret ships. greatly reduces optimal and tracking. stick two of them on another cruiser in shortrange combat and try to gain some transversal and it will have trouble hitting you. can not reach snipers.
the bs sized arbi would instead get 20% optimal range for tds which would work like the scorpions 20% ecm optimal range and allow you to use the module against long range ships. the effect isnt as good as it is on the arbi but reaches further out. at long range you will mostly benefit from the reduced optimal range. forcing the enemy to change ammo or get in closer for good hits. at closer ranges the tracking reduction will also be of some help though not as good as on the arbi.
also: a bigger class ship with the same role does not make small class ships obsolete. if that was the case the following ships would be useless: amarr: omen, maller caldari: caracal, moa, blackbird gallente: thorax, vexor minmatar: rupture, stabber (just looking at t1 crusiers here but there are a lot more that fit your idea of obsolete)
Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around. ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.29 09:50:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around.
You mean.. like the Scorpion?
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
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Posted - 2006.10.29 09:53:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around.
You mean.. like the Scorpion?
The Scorpions old 10% shield HP's per level would have actually be useful in kali ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Tharrn
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.10.29 10:33:00 -
[231]
Could anyone explain to me why only Caldari should be allowed to have diversity? It would be a good thing (tm) if EVERY race would get a ship that fills a role that is currently not covered IMVHO.
Now recruiting!
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.29 10:46:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Tharrn Could anyone explain to me why only Caldari should be allowed to have diversity? It would be a good thing (tm) if EVERY race would get a ship that fills a role that is currently not covered IMVHO.
because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers). -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 11:13:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2006 11:13:28
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around.
this works fine if your caldari. others cant reach long range battleships with their ewar/support cruisers.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.29 15:13:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:13:59
Originally by: Grimpak because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).
Well, the reason for this is because they have an EW BS, while all other races miss one. So I would say the gap for the other races is just as present.
Unless, of cource, caldari are supposed to have 3 specialisations (ecm, missles & rails) and other races only 2.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.29 16:17:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:13:59
Originally by: Grimpak because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).
Well, the reason for this is because they have an EW BS, while all other races miss one. So I would say the gap for the other races is just as present.
Unless, of cource, caldari are supposed to have 3 specialisations (ecm, missles & rails) and other races only 2.
Well if we wanted to make things happen like they should, the abaddon would actually be a TD user. The dominix would have a damp bonus and the Maelstrom would have a Target Painting bonus "like a range + effectiveness" bonus. But... alas people would complain and tbh target painters just suck as an ewar system as-is. Maybe if they were a resistance breaker effect to TPs like in that one good thread I'd support it.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Killthemall420
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Posted - 2006.10.29 16:54:00 -
[236]
Is it just me or does the Hyperion just suck. If its not going to have its own role or its own purpose wtf is the point. Thx for the big build up and let down thats always fun
P.S. You wanted feed back, constructive or not thier it is.
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Saboro Kai
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Posted - 2006.10.29 18:26:00 -
[237]
Fix the cap problem with the Abaddon and it should be fine. The Amarr race doesnt need "another" mining ship,thats what a giant Arbi will end up being .
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.29 18:59:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ...But... alas people would complain and tbh target painters just suck as an ewar system as-is. Maybe if they were a resistance breaker effect to TPs like in that one good thread I'd support it.
I wouldn't even classify target painters as EW. It needs about as much an utility boost as (tranquility) ECM needs an utility nerf.
Personally I would just remove the classification of TP as EW and give the minnie ships the gallente warp disruptor range bonus instead, making them the ultimate "catch you!" ship. Might be a bit too strong then though. And then there would be the question what to give the gallente recons.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.29 19:04:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Saboro Kai Fix the cap problem with the Abaddon and it should be fine. The Amarr race doesnt need "another" mining ship,thats what a giant Arbi will end up being .
There is no easy fixing of the cap problem. Simply giving it more cap would overpower it with certain weapons and also make the armageddon and apocalypse useless. And no, a giant arbi would not be a good mining ship. Ever counted the turret hardpoints on an arbitrator?
Imo the Abaddon concept (tank or gank) failed since it can do neither for a reasonable time without the cap reduction bonus and on top it's really boring to have a 3rd ship that is so similar to the 2 existing ones.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 19:17:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Saboro Kai Fix the cap problem with the Abaddon and it should be fine. The Amarr race doesnt need "another" mining ship,thats what a giant Arbi will end up being .
cant really talk about its mining capabilities as i havent mined for a few years. usually i use my arbi for pvp where it easily outclasses our other t1 crusiers.
however i'm not so sure why you think a big arbi bs with 3 turrets and 5 drones without a mining bonus would make a good mining ship considering that the tux-abaddon has 8 turrets and can also field 5 mining drones.
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Saboro Kai
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Posted - 2006.10.29 21:35:00 -
[241]
And there's part of the problem . These new ships arent meant only for PVP or 0.0 space warfare. They are meant for everyone to use in any system sec type, missions , ratting, plex & war . You had info on these ships months back, now you want a change
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AlexCA
Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.29 21:47:00 -
[242]
Abaddon needs to be a turret boat so those nicely modeled 8 hardpoints dont go to waste, might just be better to redefine the amarr BS line, 2 classical amarr designs (one of wich the abbadon model) and 1 of the lower 2 tiers a mishmash ship like the arbi (combination of tracking disruptors, drones and missiles)
Vodka Lolterra
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Captain Raynor
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Posted - 2006.10.29 21:48:00 -
[243]
Maybe perhaps laser turret cap reduction rigs could help compensate for the Abbaddons issues? Perhaps the laser bonus should be 5% damage and not rate of fire too? The real Jim Raynor. |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.29 22:09:00 -
[244]
im waiting to get in sisi to test abaddon with rigs.Anyways abaddon should have more powergrid than maelstorm. Since its an armor tanker and their guns use more grid
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.29 22:36:00 -
[245]
Edited by: Grimpak on 29/10/2006 22:36:48
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:13:59
Originally by: Grimpak because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).
Well, the reason for this is because they have an EW BS, while all other races miss one. So I would say the gap for the other races is just as present.
Unless, of cource, caldari are supposed to have 3 specialisations (ecm, missles & rails) and other races only 2.
true there, however, only caldari has ECM as a more pro-active type of Ewar that is usefull in general fleet wether long or short range, while all the other races Ewar mods are more skirmish related (damps and TD's have too short range for fleet battle usage and TP's are nigh useless except for a few, very specific situations)
so yes, you could say that, I see Ewar not that important in the amarr/gallente/minmatar racial concepts, wich base themselves in tankability for amarr, damage for gallente and speed for minmatar, with secondary for "lots of turrets" approach for amarr, remote firepower (droning) for gallente, and firepower flexibility for minmatar.
for caldari I see more long range firepower projection (even if missiles are sometimes slow to go long ranges, they still go long range, specially with many bonuses for missile speed and flight time that exist in caldari ships), and ECM.
the caldari BS lineup is perfect because CCP apparently intends to create a standartized fleet battleship with tier 3, wich favours caldari racial concept more since they lack a better long range platform capable of projecting damage at long ranges. Raven can project such firepower, but due to the inherent lack of instant damage that missiles give, they are nigh useless in today's long range fleetbattles.
What about the other races?
Bar the gallente tier3, which is intended to be the ultimate blaster boat, CCP wants to create solid fleet ships in an, already saturated of range capable fleet ships (specially the amarr, since both geddon and apoc can go fleet).
So TBH, while the inclusion of a tier3 battleship is welcome to increase the number of options in the battleship range, it will be impossible to fit such ships in this class, bar the caldari, unless they change the pre-existing battleships, or they change the approach they want to do in the tier3. To be quite honest, I prefer the first option, and I believe aswell that CCP will choose first, if they intend to bring out tier3's with little(advised) to no changes(NOT advised). -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 22:47:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Saboro Kai And there's part of the problem . These new ships arent meant only for PVP or 0.0 space warfare. They are meant for everyone to use in any system sec type, missions , ratting, plex & war . You had info on these ships months back, now you want a change
1. all the complaints brought up now were alreay brought up and apparently ignored when tux first announced the abaddon bonuses. so far he has not even seen fit to share his thoughts on why amarr does not deserve a ship filling a role different from those we already have on the bs level.
2. its a combat ship. of course its designed for pvp. it should not be designed just with fleet battles in mind and thats one of the reasons why i'm not happy with it. we already have 2 other battleships which perform fine at these. and the only thing the abaddon with its current bonuses really shines at will be long range fleet battles.
3. if you want to run missions/complexes with an amarrian bs you will most likely be better off with the apoc or geddon because you need sustainable dmg+tank for this kind of combat. with the abaddon that will only work well with projectile weapons fitted. i hear its a better miner though.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 23:32:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Grimpak
so yes, you could say that, I see Ewar not that important in the amarr/gallente/minmatar racial concepts, wich base themselves in tankability for amarr, damage for gallente and speed for minmatar, with secondary for "lots of turrets" approach for amarr, remote firepower (droning) for gallente, and firepower flexibility for minmatar.
for amarr the problems with this concept are: 1. once kali 1 gets released we will no longer have turret superiority 2. our tankers use cap heavy weapons which counters their own tankpower 3. tanking is not all that nice for pvp (you cant concentrate tanks for example)
Originally by: Grimpak
Bar the gallente tier3, which is intended to be the ultimate blaster boat, CCP wants to create solid fleet ships in an, already saturated of range capable fleet ships (specially the amarr, since both geddon and apoc can go fleet).
well thats one of the things that make me wonder how they decided what those ships would become.
caldari: easy enough they lacked the turretboat...sniperbonus like the smaller caldari gunboats
gallente: they already have the mega for fleet use so they get a specialized blasterboat (even though that may have its own issues).
minmatar: a specialized fleetship with 8 turrets and enough grid for artillery instead of their usuall split setups. the tanking bonus isnt all that great for fleet battles and everyone knows it (including tux) since it was first announced. still no change there.
amarr: we have 2 good fleetships to start with which already makes us stick out in this department. for some reason its decided we need to get another one. to make it clear that its a fleetship it gets rof+armor resist as bonuses, slotlayout and dronespace are copied over from the apoc to save some time, total powergrid is copied from the maelstrom design because that makes no sense at all. this leaves us with a ship with better overal stats than both apoc and geddon while outperforming them only as a longrange fleetship with some plates as a passive tank. to make sure people dont use it for other situations it doesnt get the laser capuse reduction. not a problem for sniperfleets. you propably wont sit there and fire for ages anyway and the passive tank may buy you some more time to get out should you attract fire. also it would be evne more obvious that its jsut a better verison of already existing ships if they had given it the laser capuse bonuse instead of the armor one.
Originally by: Grimpak
So TBH, while the inclusion of a tier3 battleship is welcome to increase the number of options in the battleship range, it will be impossible to fit such ships in this class, bar the caldari, unless they change the pre-existing battleships, or they change the approach they want to do in the tier3. To be quite honest, I prefer the first option, and I believe aswell that CCP will choose first, if they intend to bring out tier3's with little(advised) to no changes(NOT advised).
well if they really wanted (as in planned to do this) to create fleet ships for tier3 i wonder why they didnt follow through with the gallente one. if there were some plans to change the apoc and/or geddon to prevent us from having 3 almost identical ships that would be fine with me. in fact i would prefer it if our top tier battleship was a laser spewing fleetship and we got a support or otherwise specialist ship for tier 1 or 2.
however there have be no such announcements and if they had designed the abaddon with this in mind then there would really be no reason not to explain it to the players. especially after being asked about it for over 2 months now.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.30 00:43:00 -
[248]
I've read for a while now, seen some good and some bad suggestions on the topic of fitting the new ships into specific roles... As far as I'm concerned I'd do the following:
Caldari: no change required, ships stay as they are
Minmatar, the easiest case:
-Rework the Typhoon to be a fullscale missile ship. Give it one defensive bonus and one target painter bonus. However, it needs to be a painter bonus that is worth it, not just some negligible 5% per level. The idea is that the Typhoon *optimizes* its damage with missiles by targetpainting the enemy instead of simply pumping up the base damage with offensive bonuses - this differentiates it from the Raven (along with being armortanked). That means the Typhoon should be able to targetpaint at vast distances (150km and more) and achieve significant signature increases (50% and more). This would probably turn the Typhoon into a specialized cruiser-killer, much like destroyers are specialized frigate-killers. Together with it being a dedicated missile ship, I don't think any Minmatar could complain about it not filling a unique role in the racial lineup. Finally, since everyone benefits from painted targets, it could be a good long-range support ship in fleets.
-Take the Tempest and the Maelstrom and optimize one for artillery duty and the other for autocannon ownage, thus filling the two turret roles.
Gallente, the moderately difficult case:
-The Megathron currently makes both a fine blasterboat and a fine sniper, or so I've been told. So if you want to achieve a better distinction between it and the Hyperion (assuuming the latter stays a dedicated Blasterboat), then unfortunately the Megathron needs a cut in versatility. Make it heavier, give it a little more grid. Change the tracking bonus into a sensor dampener bonus. Basically a ship that stays way out there and tries to ruin the enemy's ability to fire back.
-The Hyperion should get the tracking bonus the Megathron just lost. This immediately makes it a very dangerous blasterboat, and that is all it really needs! This bonus should go into the slot of the "we don't really know yet what we should put there" bonus that the devs still have there.
Amarr, the difficult case:
-Apocalypse and Armageddon... two ships that already can perform similar duties. I must admit that Amarr ships are the ones I know the least about. But from how I see it - one ship has 8 turrets, the other ship has 7 slightly faster firing turrets. Of course, the Apocalypse has that cap bonus and overally better stats, but they're still extremely similar. In addition, pulse lasers and beam lasers by far aren't so distinctly differentiated like blasters/rails or autocannons/artillery, making it a bit pointless to try and create a sniper and a short-range ship. So, what to do:
-Take the three Amarr battleships and give one a more distinct offensive bias, and the second a more distinct defensive bias. Then one could be the fleet ganker ship, and the other could be the solo PvP / PvE ship. Giving Amarr a ship with a stronger offense might also pacify a few of them "Amarr suck" forum spammers. The third should get tracking disruptor bonuses, and maybe something entirely Amarr-unique: think about it, they're the Imperialists. Wouldn't it be totally their style to have a big, fat royal command battleship for their medal-loaded royal admirals? Yes, give the third ship gang bonuses of some sort, plus the ability to fit warfare links and gang support modules. Then that ship could shine in a role that no other faction has, by having the entire fleet revolve around them.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 01:04:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne lotsa stuff
exactly.
The amarr concept is, at first sight, pretty simple and doesn't have many flaws: big hulks of super-armored ships with hard-hitting powerfull lasers, while sacrificing electronics and flexibility. It is a nice concept, at first sight. However in nowadays such concept is hampered by:
A) the fact that amarr ships don't have that much cap, realy. B) their armor is not thick enough and C) the omni-tank.
increasing the cap in a generous way, and giving an extra boost to armor, on top of the kali boost, would re-define the amarr as still the "all-powerfull, laser-spewing, super-armored race that can't be arsed to be flexible" concept that, I believe, is the amarr trait. Still, such thing requires allot of testing since it can open a bigger can of worms than the one you just closed.
as for the rest, I believe that CCP wanted to make tier3, a true fleet ship (bar the gallente one, but that's a diferent issue alltogether), and, disregarding caldari, which got their much needed turret battleship, I don't see why should we pick the abbadon/maelstrom over the tempest/apoc/geddon, at least with the current status/bonuses.
So all in all, considering the current stats, eve warfare, and balance one can say that, bar the Rohk, none of the tier3's have a REAL place in the battleship lineups. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Captain Raynor
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Posted - 2006.10.30 03:48:00 -
[250]
One thing about the whole Maelstorm/Abbaddon same grid stuff, one thing Tux must do in Kali is freaking balance autocannon / artillery powergrid usage.. it's pretty out of whack right now.. The real Jim Raynor. |
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Krav
Egad Inc. Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.30 03:57:00 -
[251]
Originally by: ****c The Abbadon is supposed to be better, please make it better.
Including Drones its about the same DPS as a geddon (with a slightly better tank) and much worse cap.
Has the same grid and less CPU than the Maelstrom yet requires more grid for guns and it's an armour tanker.
and can't do better than quoting this:
Originally by: Toaster Oven
Finally got onto Sisi for some testing. Here are some numbers for those of you wondering about the cap issue
Relevant skills info Max gunnery, including Controlled Bursts 5 Amarr BS 5 Max cap skills Max armor tanking skills No implants
Testing scenario Undock from station with 100% cap, 4 cap booster 800s loaded, and another 12 in cargo. Measure time from initial firing till cap death (ie. one or modules inactivate due to insufficient cap). If using cap booster (1x Heavy Electrochemical), cap boosting begins almost immediately after firing commences. If using repairer, delay 10sec before activating. Results are average of 3 attempts.
Results
8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 21sec 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II with cap booster: 4min 21 sec, last cap booster consumed at 3min 53sec 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 1x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 58sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 2x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 7sec, 12 cap booster 800s remaining
8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 3sec 8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II with cap booster: 2min 6sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining
These numbers are the *absolute best* you can expect and tbh a bit unrealistic. There aren't too many fights where you start out with 100% cap and have no one NOSing you. In testing, you can expect closer to 2/3 those times in a normal PVP scenario both short and long range. Or less if you're fighting a NOS Domi Mad. I capped out almost every time when fighting another BS. The cap use is simply put beyond ridiculous.
Devs, I hope you reconsider and turn the Abbadon into something useful. As it stands, it's simply a joke and you should be ashamed for even releasing it. Gimme a ship where I can use both bonuses at the same time, like every other ship in the game
/signed
/signed...
Abaddon is not worth the isk as it stands today... This ship is just screaming to use projectiles instead of lasers again, kinda like the Apoc. I am not going to use minmatar weapons on an amarr bs, and I don't think I should _have to_ in order to make the ship usable. Props to Toaster Oven's test for pointing out the most glaring inconsistancies.
Krav =====
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.30 04:11:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/10/2006 10:50:42
Originally by: Nifel
Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.
Good post. Makes me want that resistance bonus for the Maelstrom tbh, because its actually also much more versatile than the shield hp bonus imo. CCP keep saying versatile for minmatar, but doesnt really back it up with bonuses. A shield resist bonus is versatile, a shield boost or hp bonus is not, because it locks the ships tanking into one option only to take advantage of it.
Its very bad to be competing with caldari for bonuses...
The HP bonus will always give more hp/s on passive recharge (if Maelstorm stats stay the way they are now that is) than the res bonus. Playing with the real stats the Maelstorm will have a maximum shield recharge of 38.4 hp/s with max skills, no modules and no gang. On the Rohk that'd be 20.4 hp/s which translates into 27.2 effective hp/s regen for em damage with the res bonus in play.
They're two different bonuses, but I'd dare say they'd be equally good with the current stats on the BS we have, unless I've missed something -_^;;. Ofc... something's bound to go ape**** anyway :\.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Thelgor
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Posted - 2006.10.30 04:52:00 -
[253]
Though Caldari, I fly Amarr. Level 5 in all ship types.
Throughout my almost 3 years in eve I have seen lasers go from useful, to useless.
To put it plainly lasers now = underpowered.
Look at it thus;
Relative same dmg to projectiles, give or take some skills on each. They used to be better then rails (I'm so glad Caldari, which I also fly, got that much needed boost to the powerhouse ships they already have) but with the new changes they'll be on par with those as well, give or take a skill or three. They use massive cap, which is always an issue. Weapons using cap? Oh ****zle. No repairing for me. The cap bonus we DO get, to make up for the cripple effect we have, only takes away from having another bonus like all the other races.
I.E No cap to shoot? Here, have a bonus, which will only HELP negate the lack of cap. While the other ships bask in the greatness of 2 awesome bonus's that make them BETTER, not help them recover from polio.
EM and Therm dmg. Okay, I understand the logic of it. Beam of light = Heat/Therm... EM dmg? Okay, I'll roll with that. The other races get to pick and choose dmg? So what, I don't have limited ammo and no reload time. All well and good until I run into an armour tank. It's like watching a mute kitten try to kill a dog by screaming. Stupid. It wasn't so bad before the laser dmg nerf. Now it just rams home the boost the rails are getting.
So now we have the 2 BS's the Amarr started with, basically 2nd to the other races. (except the minnie's pilots who thought they only needed to train projectiles... fools!)
Here's an idea! How about another LASER BS. And not only do the lasers cripple you to start off... but we'll help the disease and smash you in the mouth with a hammer.
Thanks CCP. Next time, use some lube.
Really though, the ship looks awesome, but as a pilot who has flown both Caldari and Amarr for years, and watched Caldari surpass Amarr in almost everything, again and again, I'm saddened by Kali.
The new Caldari ubership is great I'm sure, and I know I'll own some, who would pass up the pwnage? But for EvE's sake, why the fruit did the Caldari (the uber race don't you doubt, look at what the % of players fly) get yet ANOTHER awesome ship to troll around in? While CCP totally screwed the other 3 races. Do any of the Dev's even FLY other races then Caldari? Am I missing a CCP inside joke?
"lol watch deez nubz make der minnie pilots. 15$ cha-ching!"
I feel bad for those who can't fly Caldari and must now choose between the tier 2 BS's, or the +50mil for... some more hps.
Oh, and what is wrong with the Amarr getting a drone BS as good as the Domi? For an extra 100mil it better have the same dronespace. Hell take away 2 or 3 turret hardpoints. I don't care, gimme something to use other then LASER LASER LASER NO CAP NO REP DEAD.
Honestly, I'm sick of spending money on Amarr ships when using Caldari makes more sense. If this isn't changed in a big way, only the diehard loyal fanboys of the other races will remain playing them. The trend is killing the usefulness and fun of ther other races BS's.
Here's to Kali and CCP, may all our ships be even and meet in the halls of Valhalla.
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.30 05:40:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Thelgor
EM and Therm dmg. Okay, I understand the logic of it. Beam of light = Heat/Therm... EM dmg? Okay, I'll roll with that.
Please tell me how when you put in a radio or X-ray crystal that is light and not EM :) [PhysicsNerd] Light IS a packet of electromagnetic waves jsut like Radio or X-rays, just is that our eyes can detect them and it has different properties to others wavelengths.[/PhysicsNerd]
Originally by: Thelgor
The new Caldari ubership is great I'm sure, and I know I'll own some, who would pass up the pwnage? But for EvE's sake, why the fruit did the Caldari (the uber race don't you doubt, look at what the % of players fly) get yet ANOTHER awesome ship to troll around in? While CCP totally screwed the other 3 races. Do any of the Dev's even FLY other races then Caldari? Am I missing a CCP inside joke?
I feel bad for those who can't fly Caldari and must now choose between the tier 2 BS's, or the +50mil for... some more hps.
Honestly, I'm sick of spending money on Amarr ships when using Caldari makes more sense. If this isn't changed in a big way, only the diehard loyal fanboys of the other races will remain playing them. The trend is killing the usefulness and fun of ther other races BS's.
Ok, the Rokh is good, yes, but not "uber." I'll personally be concerned with engaging a megathron below a certain range because he'll out damage me. Furthermore it's not at the 10km range either. The Megathron starts out damaging the Rokh at 60km range. And I'm sure with your 3 years of experience you'll know that nearly all combat outside of fleet and camps occur within this range. Link to supporting graph.
Oh and I'm all for the boosting of the other races. But I don't fly other races ships anymore and so I'll leave it to their pilots to offer ideas on how to improve them.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.30 11:17:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Logan Xerxes Please tell me how when you put in a radio or X-ray crystal that is light and not EM :) [PhysicsNerd] Light IS a packet of electromagnetic waves jsut like Radio or X-rays, just is that our eyes can detect them and it has different properties to others wavelengths.[/PhysicsNerd]
Problem is that the effect of EM waves IS heat, aka thermic damage. There really is no such thing as "EM damage". Unless you are the opinion armor can get sunburns.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.10.30 11:33:00 -
[256]
Ok, first up I only fly caldari battleships (although smaller ships in other races) so this probably needs some additions from people who know what they are talking about...but I have an idea :o
Well, 3 ideas to be precise.
Caldari
Looks good but not overpowered, nice range but lower damage output. Finally we get a fleet ship. *thumbs up*
Minmatar
They have a nice fleet sniper in the tempest, so I don't really see the need for another. Minmatar are about speed and manouvering, which normally in a battleship means a blasterboat. Their electronic warfare is target painting, which is generally considered weak.
I see two options here:
1. Blaster ship
Give them a very light fast ship, enough cap to run a microwarp and a bonus to turret tracking and something else useful for a blaster.
2. Ewar ship (my preferred)
Give them an ewar ship. But target painters are limitted, so lets make a ship that target painters really help. Give them a ship with nice solid defences and lots of missile launcher high slots. The ship bonus would be 5% per level rate of fire for torpedo (But NOT cruise) and 20% per level to target painter range (and maybe effectiveness).
Now you get a really nice mission running boat, you use target painters to counter the weakness of torpedos in order to deal heavy damage but with slow moving torps. It's different from the raven in that it loses its bonus if it uses cruise (maybe armour tank it too since the mids are used for target painters). It can also be used in fleets as it can target paint out to fleet combat range and the torps work in small gang situations.
Amarr
Amarr really don't need another laser battleship, they already have two. So what are the options?
1: Drone boat.
Follow on from the Abaddon and give it a nice drone bay. Perhaps to make it a bit different from the Dominix give it 8 turret hard points, a bonus to turret energy use, a tanking bonus and no drone bonus - but a 200+m3 drone bay.
Now neither its lasers or drones are enough damage on their own, but the two go together to kick out serious damage and it can use the drones to switch damage types or get utility with enough drone space for plenty of options and spares.
2: Nos boat.
Amarr are good at high energy stuff, so lets give them a bonus for NOS. 20% per level bonus to Nos range (and maybe effectiveness) will let it nos out to 50km, combine with a 5% rate of fire on turrets and you have a very interesting and different ship that sucks energy out of you and then fires it back in laser form.
3: Ewar boat.
Amarr use tracking disrupters... These have the obvious weakness of not working on missiles or drones, but they are very effective against turrets. Give it a lot of low slots for some serious tank and then a big range (and maybe effectiveness) bonus on tracking disrupters. A nice number of high slots and a bonus for laser cap use.
Gallente
Gallente have a nice drone boat in the dominix, a nice sniper/blaster boat in the megathron. It's not as bad as with the Amarr but they could still use some versitility. Right now I only have on idea for them:
1. Ewar ship
Senser damps are actually very evil is used right, if the ship had a good range bonus to senser damps then you could use them effectively in fleet battles.
Right, just a few ideas to throw into the mix. I hope people like some of them :)
Zarch AlDain
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.30 11:50:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain Right, just a few ideas to throw into the mix. I hope people like some of them :)
Some small corrections: Minmatar use autocannons, not blasters. Surely you mean the followup of the "Arbitrator", not Abaddon.
From reading the forums I got the impression, apart fomr the shield boost bonus, the minnies are quite happy with the Maelstrom.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.30 11:52:00 -
[258]
I would love if a total redesign would be made, but I think thats unlikely. By the way, why is there no communication with Tuxford and the others about this? I think its pretty important that the tier 3 really brings something new to every race.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.30 11:53:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 11:53:34
Originally by: Grimpak true there, however, only caldari has ECM as a more pro-active type of Ewar that is usefull in general fleet wether long or short range, while all the other races Ewar mods are more skirmish related (damps and TD's have too short range for fleet battle usage and TP's are nigh useless except for a few, very specific situations)
The bigger range of ECM comes from the ship boni, not from the EW system. Without it multispecs have barely more range than damperners and racial ECM hasn't much of an range advantage over tracking disruptors either.
Quote: so yes, you could say that, I see Ewar not that important in the amarr/gallente/minmatar racial concepts, wich base themselves in tankability for amarr, damage for gallente and speed for minmatar, with secondary for "lots of turrets" approach for amarr, remote firepower (droning) for gallente, and firepower flexibility for minmatar.
for caldari I see more long range firepower projection (even if missiles are sometimes slow to go long ranges, they still go long range, specially with many bonuses for missile speed and flight time that exist in caldari ships), and ECM.
It does not really work that way.
While missiles can be longrange weapons their real strength lies in midrange engagements. They are just too different to turrets to be put into a longrange drawer along with them.
Also, if tankability is an core aspect of amarr it is also one of caldari. A raven has actually a *stronger* tank than an apoc, at least if the latter is using his racial weapon (aka lasers) and not projectiles.
What you wrote is simply not how things are in the game. The current situation is more like this:
Every race has an EW frigate and cruiser.
Every race has (more or less) 2 core racial concepts. For caldari it would me missle spammer and rail sniper. For gallente droneship and blasterboat. For amarr a dps ship and a tankship (The dps/droneship miss at the t1 frigate lvl for amarr/gallente, though, but are present with the assault frigate line).
On the BS lvl caladri hs the EW & missileship, missing the rail sniper. Gallente has the drone & blaster ship, missing the EW ship. Amarr has the dps & tankship, missing the EW ship.
Minmatar is missing so far, though. That race is a bit harder to define due to it's jack of all trades nature. You could prolly call their first speciality a fast shortrange scirmisher (stabber, typhoon) and their 2nd spec a ship with a good offense/defence/speed balance (rifter/rupture/tempest).
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:06:00 -
[260]
It's quite simple. Give us a BS with the bonuses the Arbi has and I'll be happy \o
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:11:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Amarr
1: Drone boat.
Follow on from the Abaddon and give it a nice drone bay. Perhaps to make it a bit different from the Dominix give it 8 turret hard points, a bonus to turret energy use, a tanking bonus and no drone bonus - but a 200+m3 drone bay.
8 turrets with laser cap use reduction bonus and a tanking bonus is what the apoc has now. so this would just be an apoc with a biger dronebay. a real droneboat should have a bonus to drones so it can actually use them better than a normal bs.
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
2: Nos boat.
Amarr are good at high energy stuff, so lets give them a bonus for NOS. 20% per level bonus to Nos range (and maybe effectiveness) will let it nos out to 50km, combine with a 5% rate of fire on turrets and you have a very interesting and different ship that sucks energy out of you and then fires it back in laser form.
50km nos range would be too much for a bs i think. at least before nos gets nerfed. depending on how that works out a large nos-range bonus could be ok again.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:22:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Aramendel more stuff
while I see your point, I do not belive that the other 3 races have Ewar as one of their core aspects, as much as caldari anyways.
Caldari are high-tech, shield tanking, space-superiority ships that use high-tech forms of Ewar to gain the upper hand, or at least I see them as that, while gallente are more of a "up close and personal" style of war where putting the maximum "in your face" firepower prevails. Amarr, supposedly and in my opinion, are the fleetmasters however that cover their inherent drawbacks (inflexibility and low-tech gear), with a "more guns and armor" approach together with number superiority and firepower deliverance in the middle to long ranges, where their lasers, supposedly, reign supreme. The minmatar concept was based in counter the amarrian concept of big fleets, by employing quick, fast, flexible ships specialized in "hit-and-run" tactics to wreck havoc in the enemy lines, by employing either a more sustained, altho short range firepower (autocannons), or hi-damage, low sustainability long range firepower (artilleries).
True that this is not exactly what we see today in each race, however these core concepts are present in each races' ship lineup.
So yes, in sum, while Ewar, more specifically ECM, are one of the mainstray forms of war of the caldari, the other races are more of hi-tech firepower (blasters + droning), or sieging capabilities (pure firepower + staying power in form of armor), or guerrilla hit-and-run tactics (speed + versatility), which puts Ewar in second, or even third plan.
At least this is my point of view, and the way I see each race concept of how wage war. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:24:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Saboro Kai And there's part of the problem . These new ships arent meant only for PVP or 0.0 space warfare. They are meant for everyone to use in any system sec type, missions , ratting, plex & war . You had info on these ships months back, now you want a change
I suggest you look back said "months back" on the ships and modules forum where you will find any number of posts saying the Abaddon concept is fundamentally flawed and PLEASE can the Amarr have a BS which is not just a differently-broken gunship.
Of course the irony is you will also see any number of posts saying "Don't ask for a change until you've seen what it's like on the test server"...
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:43:00 -
[264]
Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 12:45:11
Originally by: Grimpak So yes, in sum, while Ewar, more specifically ECM, are one of the mainstray forms of war of the caldari, the other races are more of hi-tech firepower (blasters + droning), or sieging capabilities (pure firepower + staying power in form of armor), or guerrilla hit-and-run tactics (speed + versatility), which puts Ewar in second, or even third plan.
*sigh* Yes, and likewise the caldari lineup put longrange rail sniping have heavy shield tanking (which is just as good as amarr tanking) as 3rd priority.
Until now, till the 3rd tier BS.
As said, you cannot put missles and rails in the same pot, just as you cannot put drones and blasters in the same pot.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:52:00 -
[265]
Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2006 12:52:50
Originally by: Aramendel As said, you cannot put missles and rails in the same pot, just as you cannot put drones and blasters in the same pot.
in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.
Anyways, I believe that Tuxford and co. don't want to make an Ewar BS out of the new tier simply because they want to follow each race core concept, of which Ewar, even if each race has a "favorite" form, is not part of their core concept. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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776677
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:24:00 -
[266]
Edited by: 776677 on 30/10/2006 13:24:44 All arbitratots big fans... MOVE YOU HANDS AWAY FROM ABBADON! Use Curse and Pilgrim be a happy! Do not tough Amarrian fierpower, this is GUNBOAT!
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:44:00 -
[267]
Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 13:45:42
Originally by: Grimpak in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.
Yes, but so are missle & rails.
The point is, either you could drones & blasters as one single racial concepts if you count missles & rails as one single concept or you count drones & blasters as 2 different concepts if you count rails & missiles as 2 different concepts.
The problem is that whatever version you choose, caldari have then 1 specialisation more than gallente. It's either "missles & rails & ECM vs drones & blasters" or "longrange weapons & ECM vs shortrange weapons".
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:44:00 -
[268]
Originally by: 776677 All arbitratots big fans... MOVE YOU HANDS AWAY FROM ABBADON! Use Curse and Pilgrim be a happy! Do not tough Amarrian fierpower, this is GUNBOAT!
Yea, a gunboat just like the other two. Please go, grab your "Abbadon" and leave. Oh and.. try an Armageddon one day. I hear it's a nice gunboat.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Joran Dusyfe
Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:46:00 -
[269]
Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12 Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.
Just my opinion.
- and after looking at the stats when I finally get onto the test server for a whopping 10 minutes before it's reboot. I see that it does have a launcher point. So much for the idea that it's designed for a different reason. Is this ship going to replace the Megathron? If so then what is on the table for a third BS for Gallente?
Again just my humble opinion.
Joran Dusyfe CEO Archron Dusyfe Industries
Visit our website. |
Akiman
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:50:00 -
[270]
i think devs does not gives a damn much becouse we are not including rigs...maybe they do stuff like this becouse with the right rigs ship could be overpowered?...Or worst story they dont give a sit about rigs.
...Btw out of conversation hyperion got some nice mass shouldnt it mean it will turn faster mwd faster warp faster etc.?!? Mass gives agility too right? If not i demand some :) Somebody can do the math how much cap will be left when hyperion fits MWD? I lack at math.. I dont want to fit 2 rcu II's to that ship give us some pg please? We MUST fit MWD for that ship and only 250 pg more than rokh and thats lowest!?! give us some space man!
Finally our locking range gets the penalty. I'm ok with that.But i dont see much boost at locking speed.It's just best locking speed but half way down at locking range. You generally give a boost for a penalty.%50 penalty %1? %2 boost...see the point?
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Olawy
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:52:00 -
[271]
Abaddons problem is its bonuses and 'sopoused' role is thought out of blue, without consept. AFAIK Ammars really dont like Minmatars(who can blame them?), so it would be logical for Abaddon to be effective against strenghts of Minmatar battleships.I am not played the game enaugh, but it seems that Minamatar main strenght in battleship class is the fleet Tempest, high range and extreem alphastrike.Logic would tell that to counter it one would need to render those abilities useless, tracking disruptor with the range and effectivness to do so would be a prefered. One must understand that in .mil, equipment is designed around the concept of force.One aspect is; to force the enemy to fight in your terms or to disabilitate its supremacy in given field.
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Saria Mysdrial
Amarr Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:01:00 -
[272]
^^^^
Damn Alt.
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Eragon Mysdrial
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:01:00 -
[273]
Wouldn't the simplest solution to the Abaddon problem be to fix lasers cap usage, so all lasers by default use -50% cap.
Of course, this would mean giving the rest of the Amarr ships real bonii, but I'm sure we can come up with great suggestions there...perhaps replace all the -10% with the +5% resist/level, and give all the tank ships with that already the Apoc's +5% cap?
That way, racially we have better tanks, we can use lasers (which do NOT have the mythical damage bonus) without a stupid bonii, and the Abaddon, though not really much different from Arma/Apoc would at least be functional.
Then again, it would make the Arma/Abaddon identical except for the extra turret slot. But really, would we complain if they fixed all the other stuff?
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:26:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2006 14:37:33
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 13:45:42
Originally by: Grimpak in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.
Yes, but so are missle & rails.
The point is, either you could drones & blasters as one single racial concepts if you count missles & rails as one single concept or you count drones & blasters as 2 different concepts if you count rails & missiles as 2 different concepts.
The problem is that whatever version you choose, caldari have then 1 specialisation more than gallente. It's either "missles & rails & ECM vs drones & blasters" or "longrange weapons & ECM vs shortrange weapons".
then the best question to be made is not "What we want from the tier3 battleships?" but rather "What is Tuxford/devs/CCP views about each races' core concepts?". If we get that question answered, then much of the discussion that revolves not only tier3's but many of the issues that plague all the 4 races could be more clearly discussed.
heck, I even have a better idea. Let's post this on the ships & mods to see how it goes.
edit: it's done. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:40:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Joran Dusyfe Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12 Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.
Just my opinion.
Your opinion would be more valid if it was more informed. The new model has been selected but not completed yet, a drawing of it can be seen Here. Basically CCP won't stop public testing because the artists aren't done quite yet.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
groove
Gallente The Collective
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:45:00 -
[276]
can anyone post an INGAME screenshots of those tire three BS ??? my account is expierd on the test server and i wanna see those ships.. no complaining:)
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Joran Dusyfe
Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.30 16:19:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Kai Lae
Originally by: Joran Dusyfe Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12 Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.
Just my opinion.
Your opinion would be more valid if it was more informed. The new model has been selected but not completed yet, a drawing of it can be seen Here. Basically CCP won't stop public testing because the artists aren't done quite yet.
Well you are 100% correct but I don't see eve-online anywhere in that post so unfortunately I don't look elsewhere much. My time is better spent looking at one web site instead of the 100's of others available. Again thank you for pointing this out. Now if we could just get Scotty on the job on Singularity as we need more power to actually be able to log on and test things instead of seeing Proxy or node is dead, loading node, ooops you have just crashed ######### node. The node is stuck etc...
Thanks. Joran Dusyfe CEO Archron Dusyfe Industries
Visit our website. |
Attak
Trioptimum
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Posted - 2006.10.30 17:35:00 -
[278]
Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage? It'll still use all it's cap trying to fire those 8 tach's, but it won't be quite so horribly cap gimped. It would still force people to choose between a high damage fleet ship and an uber tank, which imo is good.
Rokh is good, I'm gonna be scared of it until they do the universal range nerf (please!).
Gallente blaster boat needs serious work. Only thing I can think of would be a single %10 damage per level, and some more PG. That way you're forced to use some tracking comps, webs ect to make it effectively the most damaging close range BS, although I'd imagine it would outclass the 'thron for long range too.
Then again, even if they release the tier 3 when they're broken, we'll still have the same old tier 2 to fall back on.
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MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.10.30 19:07:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Attak Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage?
i like this idea too btw. it will create a damn nice ship
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Necronus
Amarr Monks of War
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Posted - 2006.10.30 19:20:00 -
[280]
Edited by: Necronus on 30/10/2006 19:21:04
Originally by: MECTO
Originally by: Attak Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage?
i like this idea too btw. it will create a damn nice ship
It will create nothing but a gimped abaddon from the other side.
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Zhull
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.10.30 19:28:00 -
[281]
I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):
Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:
Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)
Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through
Megathron would be doing:
7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59
Rock would be doing:
8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2
5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.
Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.
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Paladineguru
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.30 19:29:00 -
[282]
I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat
it should get mwd bonus, not rep
and if it cant be better than a mega close range then it should be a missle boat in line with other ships of missle ability such as the eris and lachesis a damp bonus with a rof bonus to missles would be sweet just make it a hybrid mix so it wont be a raven in gallente clothing
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Kalianyia
Caldari Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:18:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Paladineguru I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat
it should get mwd bonus, not rep
Hell no!
The 7.5% armor rep bonus is really nice. Here are the numbers (w/ Armor Repair Systems V): Normally: LAR II: 800 armor every 11.25 seconds
With Hyperion Bonus(w/ Gallente BS V): LAR II: 1100 armor every 11.25 seconds
If you mount two LAR II's: Normally: 1600 armor every 11.25 seconds
Hyperion: 2200 armor every 11.25 seconds
The 7.5% armor rep bonus is HUGE. If you strip that away and give it a MWD bonus (say 10% reduced cap usage per level) the ship will go to utter crap. Using my Megathron most of the time I dont even need to use the MWD. When I do I use it at most two cycles. Two cycles doesnt hurt the cap too bad (at least nothing my cap injector cant handle).
Having the 7.5% armor rep bonus will be usefull the entire fight! And will increase survivabilty MUCH more than the extra cap you would have saved otherwise.
I think the Hyperion bonuses are great as they are. The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.
-----
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Kalianyia
Caldari Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:26:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Zhull I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):
Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:
Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)
Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through
Megathron would be doing:
7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59
Rock would be doing:
8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2
5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.
Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.
Zhull you forgot that the Megathron gets a 5% damage bonus per level. The Rokh does not. At Gallente BS V, that means the Megathron gets a 25% damage bonus.
Megathron 7 turrets * 1.25 (damage bonus) = 8.75 effective turrets
Rokh 8 turrets * 1 (no damage bonus) = 8 effective turrets
So the Thron will still out damage the Rokh.
However, the optimal bonus and resist bonus of the Rokh will make it utterly pwn in fleet engagements. So in that case overall the Rokh > Thron for fleet battles (at least at extreme range).
One problem with the Rokh is it has less Grid than the Thron, and so trying to fit 8x 425mm Railgun II's is not going to be fun. Im not saying its impossible (I havent tried yet), but it is definately going to be a much tighter fit than fitting 7x 425mm Railgun II's on the Thron that has more grid. -----
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Zhull
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:03:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Kalianyia
Originally by: Zhull I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):
Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:
Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)
Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through
Megathron would be doing:
7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59
Rock would be doing:
8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2
5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.
Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.
Zhull you forgot that the Megathron gets a 5% damage bonus per level. The Rokh does not. At Gallente BS V, that means the Megathron gets a 25% damage bonus.
Megathron 7 turrets * 1.25 (damage bonus) = 8.75 effective turrets
Rokh 8 turrets * 1 (no damage bonus) = 8 effective turrets
So the Thron will still out damage the Rokh.
However, the optimal bonus and resist bonus of the Rokh will make it utterly pwn in fleet engagements. So in that case overall the Rokh > Thron for fleet battles (at least at extreme range).
One problem with the Rokh is it has less Grid than the Thron, and so trying to fit 8x 425mm Railgun II's is not going to be fun. Im not saying its impossible (I havent tried yet), but it is definately going to be a much tighter fit than fitting 7x 425mm Railgun II's on the Thron that has more grid.
No, look at my numbers, i was comparing Damage after factoring the other ship resists.
"Megathron would be doing:
7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59"
You see, i am considering the damage bonus, but it is offset by the Rock resist bonus.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:27:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Attak Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage? It'll still use all it's cap trying to fire those 8 tach's, but it won't be quite so horribly cap gimped. It would still force people to choose between a high damage fleet ship and an uber tank, which imo is good.
it would be somewhat better but overall still pretty useless. abaddon would still be nothing new with that change. it would still be a better version of our already existing bs only now using a bit less cap and having a better alpha.
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Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:58:00 -
[287]
Abaddon as a drone ship would be fun, then amarr can deal all 4 dmg types too... a boon in missions. It's great being Amarr isn't it. |
Atar
Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.10.30 23:11:00 -
[288]
I have to agree with the "Maelstorm an AC ship" Tempest already fills the fleet spot just fine, personally I wish all 4 of them were close range monsters, or fix the phoon, it's OK but could be a lot better.
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Wraithborn
Gallente InterMind Unlimited New Eden Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 01:56:00 -
[289]
hey not sure if this was answered yet so ill ask did the bc/bs stats change for all bc/bs or is it just for the new models?
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.31 02:23:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Kalianyia
The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.
The hyperion only needs more grid to become effective in it's role; you can argue if the role is needed or not, but not that it's quite low on grid.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
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Denrace
Amarr Psykotic Dreams
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Posted - 2006.10.31 02:32:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I would love if a total redesign would be made, but I think thats unlikely. By the way, why is there no communication with Tuxford and the others about this? I think its pretty important that the tier 3 really brings something new to every race.
Seems a fair point, tbh.
1 Year in development - for ship bonuses any reasonably experienced EVE player could have come up with in 5 minutes.
Hyperion?
Faffing around for months - only to stick it with the same bonuses as a brutix.
Seriously - in terms of manpower, giving new ships decent bonuses really is not that difficult.
Fixing bugs and programming new features?
Now THAT is difficult. ________________________________________
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FawKa
Gallente Old Farts The Phantom Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:07:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Kalianyia
Originally by: Paladineguru I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat
it should get mwd bonus, not rep
Hell no!
The 7.5% armor rep bonus is really nice. Here are the numbers (w/ Armor Repair Systems V): Normally: LAR II: 800 armor every 11.25 seconds
With Hyperion Bonus(w/ Gallente BS V): LAR II: 1100 armor every 11.25 seconds
If you mount two LAR II's: Normally: 1600 armor every 11.25 seconds
Hyperion: 2200 armor every 11.25 seconds
The 7.5% armor rep bonus is HUGE. If you strip that away and give it a MWD bonus (say 10% reduced cap usage per level) the ship will go to utter crap. Using my Megathron most of the time I dont even need to use the MWD. When I do I use it at most two cycles. Two cycles doesnt hurt the cap too bad (at least nothing my cap injector cant handle).
Having the 7.5% armor rep bonus will be usefull the entire fight! And will increase survivabilty MUCH more than the extra cap you would have saved otherwise.
I think the Hyperion bonuses are great as they are. The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.
Problem is that you dont have PG for dual rep and guns at the same time. And you dont really have lowslots enough for tanking and dmg mods as the other ships.
The entire role of the Hype is just silly. We have discussed blasters with CCP several times, and they make another 'Deimos'-ship. With lack of PG to fit the blasters and a lack of slots to tank for. Geez.
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RoCkEt X
Caldari The Order of Chivalry
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:20:00 -
[293]
POST: issue with hyperion grid.
I could be wrong but:
-The hyperion is a blaster ship -Blasters use less grid than rails. -you shouldnt fit rails to a ship they are not designed for. -The megathron is a railboat.
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Nemain
Amarr Obsidian Asylum
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:52:00 -
[294]
Well untill I can get on the test server to try any of these ships out I am still holding the view I posted in another thread (can't be r'sed to type it out again :) ), though probably all been said thousands of times before (I've been away for a few months so missed alot of the discussion, though expect Kali to have been already implimented)
Originally by: Nemain Edited by: Nemain on 31/10/2006 08:47:34 I would have liked to have seen the 3rd battleship for each race to have filled the 3rd racial role, much in the same the frigate and Cruiser equivilents do. I can see the reason for the reluctance to produce BS sized racial EW ships though. Unlike caldari, the other races EW specialities are served just as well by the cruiser/frig versions a they would be at BS level. Caldari were pretty much forced into the EW BS area as even when originally designed as a shield tanking rail boat the scorp was mostly used as an EW ship. However, appart from slots I do think that Scorp has 1 major advantage over the Blackbird, and that is BS level durability, and that is the reason why I personally think the 3rd racial BS for min, Gal and amarr should be EW based. Personally I'd go for
Hyperion
Same slot load out (or maybe 7/7/6) and speed/mass but the second bonus would be to Sensor dampners. That way you still have the Blaster boat (being able to kill a ships targetting range as you get into blaster range has to be a good thing), but now you also have the dual purpose fleet EW ship.
Maelstrom
Same slot layout again (or 7/7/6), but a TP bonus and damage bonus. So less potential DPS damage than a tempest, but far more accurate and damaging alpha strike as well as fleet suport EW.
Abaddon
A fair bit of an overhall on this one, I am still behind the drone/TD boat design personally as amarr don't need another fleet turret ship or tank. It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor. Give it a 6/6/8 slot layout, give it a weapon layout the same as the scorp (4 launchers 4 turrets, or 4 turrets, 2 launchers) a bonus to drones damage, Hp etc and a TD bonus. Now to stop the Domi pilot whines give it the same drone bay size as the Geddon. As in enough to hold 1 wave of Heavies, or at most a bay that can hold 1 wave of each size drone. The Domi then has the advantage of fielding multiple waves and types while the Abaddon can still do the same drone damage, but has less drone reserves. That gives the amarr a solo pvp BS (the other 2 are already fleet BS) and a fleet EW support ship.
With a little tinkering it seems a more balanced way of doing things to me, as well as giving each ship a more clearly defined role that still stick to racial doctrines.
Tho I'm probably wrong
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:29:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/10/2006 12:29:56
Originally by: Nemain
It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor.
arbi is not a lesser droneboat compared to the vexor. their drone capabilities are exactly the same. a bs sized droneboat should have at leat 200-250m3 dronespace to have some spares. 250 would give you 2 waves of heavies while the domi still has 3 waves.
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Elfman
AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.31 14:26:00 -
[296]
Originally by: RoCkEt X POST: issue with hyperion grid.
I could be wrong but:
-The hyperion is a blaster ship -Blasters use less grid than rails. -you shouldnt fit rails to a ship they are not designed for. -The megathron is a railboat.
Yep blasters do need less Pg than rails. But they also require you to fit a MWD and a cap booster.
MWD + Cap booster + guns == very little tank
blaster ship with little tank is a dead blaster ship
so you have to fit a lower rank of blasters to be able to fit a tank and mwd and booster for 1 more turret and a slight agility and speed boost.
tried it on test and yuck.
mega is a better blaster and rail roch is a better rail.
means the new ship is going to be used less than a mega.
the PG needs to be uped to allow to fit a full rack of ions + mwd + tank + cap booster. Then you can choose neut + mwd and little tank or tank and less DPS at the mo you have less dps less tank than a mega
Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 14:27:00 -
[297]
Edited by: PSEWAR on 31/10/2006 14:28:51 Altough my Drone Skills suck as I never have trained them much I really like the Droneship Idea for the Abaddon.
I think I do not have to outline here why the Abaddon is useless as it is desgined now as here are already many pages filled with the reasons.
As I agree that the Ship should also fit into the ideologie of the amarrian ship designs there should at least be one bonus for Damage or Tanking. So it comes to my mind that the following bonuses would be very nice and make sure the ship also survives in fleet battles long enough to do some damage:
Special Ability: 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level.
For the Slot Layout there are also some good ideas written here, but I think that would need some testing with the above mentioned bonuses.
Edit: What I missed to say is that the Abaddon could even be a better Droneboat then the Dominix at least it will also probably cost 3 times the price of a dominix
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AlexCA
Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.31 14:56:00 -
[298]
Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.
not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.
Vodka Lolterra
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.31 15:28:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Serapis Aote on 31/10/2006 15:28:36
Originally by: AlexCA Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.
not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.
actually to me it makes sense (other then the 8 hardpoints)
The gallente are the drone specialists. So it is easier for them to produce a drone ship.
Amarr are new to this, and as such it takes more time and effort to produce an effective drone ship model, thus making it more expensive then the type of ships Amarr are used to producing.
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DOARota
Gallente Drones of Annihilation Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2006.10.31 17:54:00 -
[300]
My first thought is the Caldari race will now have the best missile platform in the Raven, the best EW platform in the Scorp, the best sniping platform in the Rokh, and with it's range and other bonuses the best blaster boat in the Rokh. Holy uber race batman! Will the Jove empire be able to compete with them? I think it's been mentioned but there needs to be a definite bonus to rail guns only. Same for the eagle.
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Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:15:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Serapis Aote Edited by: Serapis Aote on 31/10/2006 15:28:36
Originally by: AlexCA Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.
not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.
actually to me it makes sense (other then the 8 hardpoints)
The gallente are the drone specialists. So it is easier for them to produce a drone ship.
Amarr are new to this, and as such it takes more time and effort to produce an effective drone ship model, thus making it more expensive then the type of ships Amarr are used to producing.
Hmmm, the apocalypse do not have turret's on the ship, sO maybe making THAT the drone ship, giving the abaddon the tank ship role, with cap reduction and armour bonus. It's great being Amarr isn't it. |
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:25:00 -
[302]
But the Apoc is ugly :| I want a good looking and good performance ship :P Sorry but the Abaddon doesn't cut on the performance part and Apoc fails at both.
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Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:21:00 -
[303]
Hey, the apoc is sort of nice looking! at least it looks like a drone ship... It's great being Amarr isn't it. |
Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:34:00 -
[304]
Originally by: DOARota My first thought is the Caldari race will now have the best missile platform in the Raven, the best EW platform in the Scorp, the best sniping platform in the Rokh, and with it's range and other bonuses the best blaster boat in the Rokh. Holy uber race batman! Will the Jove empire be able to compete with them? I think it's been mentioned but there needs to be a definite bonus to rail guns only. Same for the eagle.
Not challenging any of that except the part about the Rokh being a great blaster boat. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! Gallente have the best Drone boat! Amarr have the best.... um, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.... Though my point is that each race has it's strengths and weaknesses. The Caldari happen to have the Focus of Long-Range Railguns, Short-Mid range missiles, ECM and shield tanking. Or weakness is in staying power (those shield tanks don't last) and at times unpredictable effectiveness (gotta love all 6 of your ECM's on the scorpion failing.) Our ships are slow and it's a real pain to get our ships to be effective at soloing.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:39:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Logan Xerxes Not challenging any of that except the part about the Rokh being a great blaster boat. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! **snip**
The problem is that Artillery is now the least effective weapon in the game.
The Australasian PvP Championships |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:41:00 -
[306]
from looks alone apoc or abaddon would both work well as droneboats :)
it would even fit better if our tier 1 or 2 bs was turned into a support ship instead of the tier 3 one. i've seen this suggested a few times now and agree with it:
tier 1: big arbi based on apoc hull tier 2: geddon laser rof boat (slightly better stats maybe as a tier 2 ship) tier 3: abaddon tanker
just giving the abaddon our typical tanking bonuses (5% resists and -10% laser cap use) may not be that great an idea though as lasers are still not very good for tanking even with the cap use reduction bonus. people would still fit projectiles on it to tank it and it wouldnt really be able to stand up to the other tier 3 bs (in particular the rokh and maelstrom here) without a real bonus to lasers.
instead i would suggest staying closer to the tux-fleet-abaddon design by giving it 5% resits as the first bonus and then either 10% optimal range or 5% damage. it should not get rof as thats already done by the geddon. then you can add some unbonused launcher hardpoints for tanking or just accept that people will continue to use projectiles on it when they want to tank it.
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indeviduall
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:44:00 -
[307]
I think everyone has missed the most important part of the Rokh, mainly the 8 mining lasers you can fit on it
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:00:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Logan Xerxes
And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! Gallente have the best Drone boat! Amarr have the best.... um, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.... Though my point is that each race has it's strengths and weaknesses. The Caldari happen to have the Focus of Long-Range Railguns, Short-Mid range missiles, ECM and shield tanking.
and this is exactly the problem. caldari get to chose between 1. the best long range sniping bs, 2. the only pure missile bs and 3. the only ewar bs. if you count this you get 3 completely different designs, each featuring the best ship for its purpose and each a caldari ship. the other races can come up with 1 or 2 categories at best.
also you can see the reason why tier 3 bs are getting introduced in the first place: caldari were lacking a fleetship with instant damage capability. the 3 other races already had this covered in a more or less good manner. and while no one can really say that the caldari dont deserve to get their rail-bs people are wondering why caldari are the only race getting a bs that fills new role.
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.01 02:04:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Logan Xerxes
And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! Gallente have the best Drone boat! Amarr have the best.... um, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.... Though my point is that each race has it's strengths and weaknesses. The Caldari happen to have the Focus of Long-Range Railguns, Short-Mid range missiles, ECM and shield tanking.
and this is exactly the problem. caldari get to chose between 1. the best long range sniping bs, 2. the only pure missile bs and 3. the only ewar bs. if you count this you get 3 completely different designs, each featuring the best ship for its purpose and each a caldari ship. the other races can come up with 1 or 2 categories at best.
also you can see the reason why tier 3 bs are getting introduced in the first place: caldari were lacking a fleetship with instant damage capability. the 3 other races already had this covered in a more or less good manner. and while no one can really say that the caldari dont deserve to get their rail-bs people are wondering why caldari are the only race getting a bs that fills new role.
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
Exactly.
Once again I'm not going to disputer any points raised. Hell I fully support what you've just said. And I'm not opposed to the other races getting a ship that gives them more choices, However I've only flown Caldari for a while now and as such I won't volunteer suggestions for other ships. Though it won't stop me from defending my corner of the field. I want to see the other races get boosted, fixed, fine-tuned, whatever. Competition is what make Caldari strong after all
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.01 02:18:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
But none of the Minmatar or Gallente BS have a strong ewar-support bs either. So it's all relative.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:01:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 01/11/2006 03:04:36
Originally by: JForce
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
But none of the Minmatar or Gallente BS have a strong ewar-support bs either. So it's all relative.
yes and i'm not disputing that. just saying that for amarr a support ship like the arbi is what is obviously missing if you look at our cruisers or frigs. for gallente and minmatar its not that easy. especially for me because i dont fly that stuff :)
gallente has a drone, a blaster and a rail-bs (last 2 may be a bit to close atm). not sure which one should also get a sensor dampener bonus. i guess it could work nicely with the hyperion to improve its chances to get into range without exploding halfway there. but i'm not too sure if it couldnt use that bonus slot for something more important for blasters maybe. would also work on the domi. however drones + ewar has been amarrian so far and the gallentean droneboats seem to go for more offensive power really. another option may be the gallente tier 2 bc with some dampener range bonus maybe as that one doesnt follow the gank design of the others.
minmatar is even more difficult because their racial ewar isnt all that well liked and their ships arent as specialized. the typhoon seems to be a rather nice platform now and i wouldnt want to change a bonus there. the tempest could in theory get an ewar bonus but that would require a complete rethinking of what the ship is supposed to do. the maelstrom as proposed seems to be aimed at providing a main fleet ship with a shieldtank. giving their main fleet battleship an ewar bonus seems just wrong because it would mix firepower and ewar. also a shieldtank with ewar needs more medslots. so i'm not really sure if they want or need an ewar support ship. maybe with some new form of ewar.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:15:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
one should ask however:
is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow? -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Elijah Ghost
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:47:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Elijah Ghost on 01/11/2006 03:48:12 Guys, can someone give me the specs for the amarr tier 3 battleship? Just the general, CPU, PowerGrid, high-med-low slots etc. Drone bay size and what not. Please lemme know asap. Also, The update tomorrow, is this the entry of the Tier 3 evoloution?
Oh, and the required skills?
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.01 04:24:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
one should ask however:
is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?
I also agree with Grim here. The basic race ideas need some fine tuning. As it has happened it seems the Caldari model works fine and the Gallente need some tuning. While the Minmatar and the Amarr need some more serious work. A Short overview minus tanking as it works either way:
Caldari ECM Rails Missiles With these three things the Caldari have an excellent combined arms potential, I'm sure we already know about this so I won't go over it.
Gallente Hybrids Damps Drones Now, i Say "Hybrids" instead of blasters because that damage bonus works just fine for both rails and blasters. It means that the frogs get more choices with their weapons and ranges without loosing any effectiveness. Drones work well when up close, or at mid range with sentry drones. Damping would be a real boon for the railships however, forcing their enemies to come into range. Perhaps Make the Mega and the Hyp into a dedicated pair of ships? Rails with Damps and Blasters with tank? The drones would remain the overhanging premise of the Domi with them being the helping hand for the other two.
Amarr Gank Tank Ok, here we have the golden Amrrian steamroller. The seem to dabble with a few things here and there, Nosf, Tracking disruptions, Drones. But I think that these things should remain in the background. I suggest that they get their sensor strength bumped up. A lot. Make it so that the religious nuts can just laugh at any attempt to ECM them while they burn away the infidels. But what about the Abbaddon? I'm afraid I have no clue.
Minmatar Artillery Autocannons Speed? Ok here it gets difficult.The Minmatars are well known for being all over the **** place and being 20m/s faster. Missiles, Drones, shield, armor, the only thing that remains constant is the projectile guns. I'm really have no idea on these guys.
I can Fly Caldari the best, then the Amarr and the Gallente up to BC level and their concept is similar to the Caldari. But what we need to remember is that combat in eve does not occur along racial lines. so balancing things based purely on race won't work.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Sir Bart
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Posted - 2006.11.01 08:51:00 -
[315]
We've got 100 people saying the same things. No developer has acknowledged what we don't like about the new ships in spite of the fact that we are all saying:
-we don't want all ships to be the same. -we have a ship that can do that, give us something new
We all agree but... nobody cares. Save your breath.
I find it funny when I imagine the devs logic when he makes these ships:
"Hey everyone! We've designed some new battleships. Guess what? They are all delisously alike! They are... get this: "fleet ships." Now you guys can fly out in space, gather in "fleets" and shoot each other! Sounds great huh? The only drawback is that a pesky game content developer made us make the ships a bit different (now they don't all use rails like we originally planned). Please post your comments in one big thread so we don't have to ignore multiple threads on the same topic. Enjoy you new "fleet" battles everyone!"
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:05:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.
one should ask however:
is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?
This is a very interesting question. What is most interesting about it is that the current ship designs already do follow this flawed uniformity concept in their tanking stats.
One thing that must be said, however, is that Minmatar have no electronic warfare. Target painting is not sufficient to be placed in anything but an auxiliary support role, and not something to build a ship around.
In the future I do hope that CCP build around the different races' concepts than around a new-ship concept as they've done lately. This would have as a direct effect that in order to perform well in a certain area, you would have to specialize. As it stands currently, you do not need a racial specialization at all - every race get everything with a twist.
P.S. Someone wrote something about Amarr having a few ships that dabble - don't forget missiles! - What am I listening to? |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.01 23:28:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 01/11/2006 23:30:36
Originally by: Grimpak
one should ask however:
is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?
well theres only so much you can do with just lasers and tank. at the bs level we have 2 ships that are already pretty close to each other because of this limitation. it could work if amarr really were better at tanking then eveyone else and if lasers really were the most devastating weapon around. if that was the case it would make sense to restrict us to just those two fields and have us suffer the consequenzes of it. thats not the case however and so we're left with specializing in mediocrity.
also its not like i suggest to create those racial ewar forms from scratch. the amarr and gallente already have their ewar crusiers/recon crusier which seem to work wuiet nicely with their fleets.
adding a bs sized arbi and giving one of the gallente bs a dampener range bonus isnt going to push the races towards uniformity. ecm, td and sd are still 3 very different forms of ewar with very different applications. what it will do is break the caldari monopoly on fleet/long range ewar. and theres really no reason why long range ewar should be resticted to caldari only. especially now that they get their fleet bs and efficent ecm gets moved to caldari only. so if anything this would push the 3 races involved closer to balance, not uniformity.
edit: ah yes...the minnies are left out but thats mostly because they will soon be reclaimed anyway and work in our mines. so they wont have any time to fly around in spaceships no matter how crappy those are.
in case we dont reclaim them soon they may need to get their own form of ewar, if they want it.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.02 05:42:00 -
[318]
As long as ECM is in the game in its current form all other Ewar will be pointless.
There is no reason to shorten targeting range, or screw up a guns tracking as long as targeting can be made impossible alltogether.
Also since CCP is clearly aiming at having EW mods only being used on EW-ships there will never ever be a good reason to train for anotherone then the 8 medslot battleship with 2 monster bonuses to the best EW.
As far as battleships go there will not be any semblance of balance amongst the races as long as Caldari get such radically different ship while everyone else gets ships that are based on the same basic concepts, especially Amarr.
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DarK
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2006.11.02 06:38:00 -
[319]
I've always been annoyed with how the ships stats were done.
It's as if they have a generic model for each class and just apply attribute modifiers depending on race, for example: Caldari +20% shields, -20% armour +20% mass and then apply a possible role to it.
Instead of designing ships like that how about getting a role and building a ship around it. Make a blasterboat a blasterboat. Make a a Minmatar ship FAST, and by fast I don't mean 150m/s instead of 140m/s.
The point is let races be strong in the areas they are meant to be strong. Giving the Harbinger 250 more capacitor and then going "Amarr ship" isn't interesting. "Weak armour" in eve means you have 4250 armour instead of 4600.
Booring.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 08:47:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne adding a bs sized arbi and giving one of the gallente bs a dampener range bonus isnt going to push the races towards uniformity. ecm, td and sd are still 3 very different forms of ewar with very different applications. what it will do is break the caldari monopoly on fleet/long range ewar. and theres really no reason why long range ewar should be resticted to caldari only. especially now that they get their fleet bs and efficent ecm gets moved to caldari only. so if anything this would push the 3 races involved closer to balance, not uniformity.
by uniformity I meant that instead having a more distinguishing characteristic, all races have some sort of Ewar. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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LC Sulla
BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:07:00 -
[321]
Edited by: LC Sulla on 02/11/2006 09:07:59 Mostly I'm agreeing with what most are saying.
Caldari are now very balanced in BS's. As a Caldari pilot I have NO real complaints about any Caldari ship (even though my rail skills are garbage ).
I'm still thinking that EW should have been a major compontent for the other races. Thinking a little outside the box we can come up with some interesting designs.
Keeping the Abaddon's armour bonus and combining it with a NOS/Energy neutraliser bonus (and maybe a 75m3 drone bay). Able to tank like no other ship while deadening the cap of any other would be an intersting addition to a gang. A true tank breaker while the geddons tachyon the enemy into submission.
Similarly the Gallente could have had a damp and tracking disruptor boat (with range bonuses) and the Minmatar could have had a web/scramble range bonus (imagine being webbed and scrammed at 90kms ).
May or may not have been workable from a pvp point of view but surely worth investigating.
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Nemain
Amarr Obsidian Asylum
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:24:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/10/2006 12:29:56
Originally by: Nemain
It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor.
arbi is not a lesser droneboat compared to the vexor. their drone capabilities are exactly the same. a bs sized droneboat should have at leat 200-250m3 dronespace to have some spares. 250 would give you 2 waves of heavies while the domi still has 3 waves.
oops my bad been a while since I used either the vexor or arb.
I meant pilgrim/curse to ishtar or somthing similar. Either way, enough for 1 flight of heavies, medium and scouts would be fine. A drone a TD bonus, and 6/6 missile/turret slots would make it live it's to it's name. With 6/6/8 slots it would still be amarr but have that flexibility that amarr sorely lack. Of course thats just my opinion, based on my love for the curse which I fit somewhat similar (an amarr 8.75k passive shield tank with 70/90/76/76 res that spews missiles and drones, takes many by suprise :) )
Anyway it's all a moot point I supose as the current design looks here to stay.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 12:15:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Nemain Anyway it's all a moot point I supose as the current design looks here to stay.
Well.. why this forum section here then if not for feedback? Hopefully things are in a state that they can still be changed from.
*prays for a new abaddon and a new emperor*
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Gragnor
Order of the Arrow
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Posted - 2006.11.02 12:53:00 -
[324]
Um, does it really matter what we say? The final word will be with the game developers. Do they usually make big changes to ships prior to launching a new version such as Kali?
Given all the testing etc that needs to go on, what is the likelihood that any changes will be made to any of the ships prior to kali 1 being released?
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:37:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Grimpak
by uniformity I meant that instead having a more distinguishing characteristic, all races have some sort of Ewar.
ewar is really to powerful/important to be left to just one race.
also: like i wrote above the other races would need to be significantly more powerful at their supposed speciality to make up for it. i believe that would be far harder to balance.
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Nemain Anyway it's all a moot point I supose as the current design looks here to stay.
Well.. why this forum section here then if not for feedback? Hopefully things are in a state that they can still be changed from.
well so far there hasnt even been a single dev response to the issues raised here so i'm not too hopeful. i would suspect that they dont want to bring about any real changes to the new ships now but have realized that they have failed with designing some of them. if they come in here now they will pretty much have to admit to that.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:40:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Gragnor Um, does it really matter what we say? The final word will be with the game developers. Do they usually make big changes to ships prior to launching a new version such as Kali?
Given all the testing etc that needs to go on, what is the likelihood that any changes will be made to any of the ships prior to kali 1 being released?
Well, the chances of a complete redesign is likely 0%. The devs havent given any feedback on the comments for tier 3's, so my guess is that they think they did the best they could.
I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.
They can make it more different, but that probably means they have to change the tier 1 and 2 as well, to make sure they dont do the same things just as well. I dont think they will, but its a nice fantasy of mine to see every battleship be good at something specific. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 14:01:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 02/11/2006 14:00:46
Originally by: Jim McGregor So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.
you mean they cant make it too different for other races than caldari?
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.02 14:05:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.
So giving the Amarr a drone ship (bigger version of the Arbitrator) is so much more different from giving the Caldari a hybrid weapon ship (bigger version of the Moa)?
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 14:54:00 -
[329]
I'm still crossing my fingers and will patiently wait for Kali. If the Abaddon remains as it is now it will at least be enough to drop Amarr for good.
(Yes, this qualifies as whine.)
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 15:09:00 -
[330]
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.
So giving the Amarr a drone ship (bigger version of the Arbitrator) is so much more different from giving the Caldari a hybrid weapon ship (bigger version of the Moa)?
It is. The "bigger Moa" has a solid place in the Caldari design philosophy, it follows a clear progression, and has been a critical missing design since summer 2003 (when CCP moved electronic warfare from high slot to mid slot) and the changes to Raven and Scorpion moving them away from railgun usage.
The bigger Arbitrator is a clear design breach against the racial identity table, as well as against the Amarr identity. The Arbitrator is an unusual ship. It's not a common design, it is a breach against the Amarrian design. To put such a breach on the top tier is illogical and sends clear signals that Amarr, not Gallente, are the drone users. The top tier of a ship class represents the race's strongest identity. This is logical both from a psychological and suspense of disbelief (in lack of better wording) perspective. There is only one exception to this, the Tristan (basically, Tristan is the only T1 Gallente ship with a split layout, but it should be noted that it has no missile bonuses). If you were to identify each race's characteristic and design the ships in tier around it, it would work wonders on the game, in my opinion. This would mean moving the Dominix up one tier, scrapping the double blasterboat design, adding a dampener boat. For the Amarr, it would create place for the racially characteristic odd-ball in tier one (something like a missile+drone+EWar boat to bunch it all together).
However, to design this utopia in EVE battleship design, it would mean much more work than simply introducing new, standardized, battleships. It would mean re-evaluating and repositioning current designs. EVE needs this, true, but it must be considered that it is a time consuming effort since some of the ships would need a complete redesign (Dominix, Megathron, Armageddon, etc). The Caldari BShip line is perfectly fine and true to the racial identity, and it's the only one that is.
Most of all, EVE needs more specialization options and paths. The technology level 1 ships need to be introduced in the specialization path, as well. Simply put, if you want to do A good, train race Gamma. If you want to do B really well, train race Delta's T2 ships. Currently, it is if you want to do A well, train any race. If you want to do B really good, train your preferred race's T2 ship. Most of the time racial specialization doesn't matter, with the exceptions of drones and missiles.
To summarize: * More racial identity * Less standardized new ships (ti2 BCs good, ti3 BSs bad) * Less easily accessible paths - make me train Caldari if I want to snipe. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 15:30:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Ithildin
It is. The "bigger Moa" has a solid place in the Caldari design philosophy, it follows a clear progression, and has been a critical missing design since summer 2003 (when CCP moved electronic warfare from high slot to mid slot) and the changes to Raven and Scorpion moving them away from railgun usage.
no its not. the bigger moa has exactly the same reason to exist that a big arbi has. once upon a time there were caldari rail bs. now there are none. claiming that merlin->moa->rokh is a clear progression and not admitting the same for crucifier->arbitrator->big arbi is simply wrong.
in the same way i could claim that amarr exclusively needs to get the stacking penalty for damagemods removed because once upon a time they could fill all their lowslots with heatsinks for uber gankage. clearly this is a part of our race identity that has been critically missing since they fixed it.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:22:00 -
[332]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/11/2006 16:24:49
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.
So giving the Amarr a drone ship (bigger version of the Arbitrator) is so much more different from giving the Caldari a hybrid weapon ship (bigger version of the Moa)?
Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?
In the end, I dont think we want a Eve where every race can do it all. They should be focused on their thing, and the only reason you guys want a drone ship is because you are tired of lasers (or think their damage suck). Good news is that its very, very easy to fly the gallente drone ships since you dont need racial t2 gun skills.
Edit: Udyr, I read your post, but you forget about Ferox and probably lots of other ships that are designed for hybrids. Caldari are missiles and hybrids. You cant say that amarr is lasers and drones.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:29:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?
I don't see why a concept that has proven unflexible and boring has to be reinforced.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:29:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 02/11/2006 16:28:55 The Abaddon is not a better tanker than an Apoc. It can get slightly higher resists but lacks the cap to run the tank and do as much as a stock Apoc. It does not out gank the geddon since it has to load up on CPRs and CRs just to keep from firing itself dry.
The bonuses are just wrong for what CCP says this ship should be. And yes I went on to SISI to test them. The RoF bonus ends up nerfing the ship since it eats up all the cap, even with injectors. If you fight close range, the geddons drones more than off set the Abaddon, so there is no advantage there.
If you want it to choose between gank or tank, then give it some bonuses that actually make it a better ganker then a geddon or a better tanker than an Apoc.
I would suggest that you tie the bonuses to the low slots so that the ship can ether be fitted with damage mods or be fitted with mods. So, I suggest that the bonuses be:
10% per level cap use reduction on Large Energy Turrets* 2% per level improved efficiency of low slot modules
That way you can tank, or you can gank but you cannot put enough mod in to do both.
*Unless lasers cap usage is made more in line with other races then all Amarr ships need to reduction bonus to use the weapons.
Not even going to get into how cap usage should be lowered since lasers were nerfed to do the same damage before resists as all the other races.
Anyway my time on SISI has shown me that Abaddon is not a better tanker or ganker than existing Amarr ships.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:31:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Ithildin The bigger Arbitrator is a clear design breach against the racial identity table, as well as against the Amarr identity. The Arbitrator is an unusual ship. It's not a common design, it is a breach against the Amarrian design. To put such a breach on the top tier is illogical and sends clear signals that Amarr, not Gallente, are the drone users. The top tier of a ship class represents the race's strongest identity.
The problem with this argument is twofold. Firstly, the tiers aren't introduced simultaneously so by your logic when there are 2 tiers, tier II should have represented the strong racial identity. Except then as soon as Tier III came in, that would assume the racial identity and the tier II would all have to be redesigned?
Oh, and secondly, who says tier III is the top tier?
(However, if you want to give the Abaddon the Geddon's bonuses and instead turn the tier 1 Geddon into a drone/missile ship, I'm sure we could live with that!)
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:43:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Ithildin
To summarize: * More racial identity * Less standardized new ships (ti2 BCs good, ti3 BSs bad) * Less easily accessible paths - make me train Caldari if I want to snipe.
By your own logic the caldari should then get all missiles boats turned into hybrid ships as due to the reason that their Tier3 BS is not an missile boat and represents the racial identity table.
If you say the Amarr are only allowed to use Lasers in regard of their Backstory the Lasers should then get unnerfed so that hey do more damage as every other weapon and the amarr ships have to get a boost at the tanking ability as they have specialised in these two things they have to be superior over all other races.
However that is not the case and I think also a bit off topic. So as time passes also the Amarrian races should be allows to adapt new technological inventions and combine them with their identity so I see no problem that why the Amarrian scientist should not be allowed to develop a Battleship out of the Aribtrator (droneboat) and for example combine it with the existing features, e.G. Armor resistances.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:22:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?
1. its not really half of them its one line out of 3 2. the arbi is not just drones. its drones + td + mixed hardpoints + blanaced slotlayout thats setting it apart form the other amarrian ships. 3. our top tier ships are traditionally our tankers. so that would be projectile weapons. not lasers
Originally by: Jim McGregor
In the end, I dont think we want a Eve where every race can do it all. They should be focused on their thing, and the only reason you guys want a drone ship is because you are tired of lasers (or think their damage suck). Good news is that its very, very easy to fly the gallente drone ships since you dont need racial t2 gun skills.
i dont want a domi or scorp for amarr but i also dont want to have to learn to fly 2 races ships just to be able to fill more than 1 role. what i do want is a good support/ewar ship for amarr instead of yet another feeltship.
the amarr bs lineup after kali would be like this if you copied it to caldari: tier1: missile rof tier2: shield resist bonus tier3: missile rof+shieldresist bonus (cant fit launchers and a shieldtank at the same time though)
you say you dont want all races to be equal. how about making them balanced instead. giving amarr a support/ewar bs would not turn us into caldari or gallente copies. it would help balance our capabilities. i'm not suggesting giving us an ecm bonus but instead a bonus to our own and very different form of ewar for example.
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edit: Udyr, I read your post, but you forget about Ferox and probably lots of other ships that are designed for hybrids. Caldari are missiles and hybrids. You cant say that amarr is lasers and drones.
ewar ships dont get a bc apparently.
caldari: - ewar: griffin, blackbird, scrop -> 3 total - missiles: kestrel, caracal, drake, raven -> 4 total - rails: merlin, moa, ferox, rokh -> 4 total
so caldari have 3 distinct lines from frig up to bs. on each level they get to chose between 3 different types of ships depending on the role they wish to fill.
amarr: - ewar: crucifier, arbitrator -> 2 total - laser gank: executioner, omen, harbinger, geddon -> 4 total - laser tank: punisher, maller, prophecy, apoc -> 4 total
amarr get 2 complete lines but someone forgot to make at least these 2 really different from each other. in theory they fill almost identical roles as it is already. well unless you really want to use our top tier ships in what they do best (tanking). in this case go ahead and fit projectiles.
now i left the abaddaon out there so that you can try and find the lineup thats missing a bs for yourself.
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LordVodka
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:21:00 -
[338]
I must agree with forch on the topic of the abaddon the ship looks to be a drone boat, from the moment the picture was relased I predicted 175M3 + drone boat. The ship is in definite need of some changes and I suggest that it stays as a turret boat and you change ROF for 10% cap reduction, and taht it picks up at least 50 M3 more done bay so it has 5 large. If this cant be done then the ship definately needs a complete slot change to something even like the arb (which is 4/4/4). and then the bonus 10% to drone damage/HP, and either 5% armor or a tracking disrupter bonus. A third and possibly the best option is to just change 5% rof to 5% turret damage which will save cap and give it more DPS then a geddon
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LordVodka
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:23:00 -
[339]
Edited by: LordVodka on 02/11/2006 18:27:31 lag made this appear twice can it be deleted
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:05:00 -
[340]
Originally by: LordVodka A third and possibly the best option is to just change 5% rof to 5% turret damage which will save cap and give it more DPS then a geddon
That option would be better for the cap management and alpha strike but for dps a rof bonus is better. Tho I do hope we don't get just another turret boat...
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:41:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?
I don't see why a concept that has proven unflexible and boring has to be reinforced.
unfortunately, boring inflexibility IS the amarr concept.
all in all I agree with Ithildin.
each race should have their exclusive traits.
Caldari already has, but the other 3 are still lacking in that department, whether a better definition of the current core concept, or introduction of something more exotic and interesting than any sort of Ewar. Such problem is clearly seen in the tier3 BS'es. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:14:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Grimpak
unfortunately, boring inflexibility IS the amarr concept.
this may be true according to the backstory but really doesnt translate well into any kind of balance.
if this truely was the case (and according to tux the devs themself have no idea what amarr is supposed to be) amarr has a badly broken core concept. like i wrote above: if our concept was inflexible lasers+tank ships both these fields would have to be significantly better than what the more flexible races can offer.
if we are supposed to rely only on lasers as our weapons of choice lasers will need to be a lot more powerful than each other weapon type. and when it comes to the 2nd part of the supposed amarrian core concept this idea fails completely as tanking with lasers is simply not a good idea. to make this viable lasers would need to be reduced to 0 cap or amarrian ships need to get godly cap recharge rates. as a side effect this idea would reduce all amarrian combat to 2 simple strategies: either gank the enemy (most likely pvp strategy then) or sit it out and slowly nible them to death. doesnt sound terribly exciting and from what i gathered ccp is trying to move away from quick ganks and towards longer and more sophisticated combat. as such limiting a race to gankmobiles doesnt sound like a terribly clever idea. in fact i seem to remember that we already had amarrian gankmobiles some time ago and the devs and non-amarrian players were no to thrilled with it.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:32:00 -
[343]
I see there's been a few misunderstandings regarding my post and reasonings.
once upon a time there were caldari rail bs.
Yes, that is true. However, the biggest difference between the Caldari railgun ships and the Arbitrator is that the Caldari railgun ships are supported in the background story (henceforth: fluff). Additionally, the Caldari railgun ships are of multitude in the T1 line in all ship categories. The Arbitrator is alone in being a drone boat, it's only companions are it's own offspring.
in the same way i could claim that amarr exclusively needs to get the stacking penalty for damagemods removed because once upon a time they could fill all their lowslots with heatsinks for uber gankage.
This argumentation is only true in a very, very, limited argumentative line of reasoning. What this argument fails to take into consideration is the full scope of what I am trying to convey, which would also include fluff and ship balance. If we look at ship balance, it is fairly obvious why this argument does not hold water - it was the reason it got changed. How does it stand to the fluff, then? Well, look no further than the description for any given blaster. I'm not saying that insane damage levels should be given to blasters for nothing, I'm saying that everything comes at a cost (and if blasters, or the ships they are fitted on, don't pay for their insane damage in some way that needs be fixed). Speaking of which, pulse lasers still does most damage of all turrets for the lowest cost (cost being defined as effective tracking, range, fitting, etc.)
Firstly, the tiers aren't introduced simultaneously so by your logic when there are 2 tiers, tier II should have represented the strong racial identity.
Here we have a new and fresh problem construction, one that I actually approach at the end of my post. The problem with some races, like Caldari and Gallente, were that they had more than two identities, or concept spheres. Caldari were critically missing their strongest sphere. The other races were a bit shorter on identity spheres. Amarr had theirs covered (until people got their skills up, when the Apoc no longer is that awesome in tanking), for example.
Oh, and secondly, who says tier III is the top tier?
While I get wet just thinking about new toys, just like everyone else, I also fear that the devs in their pursuit of the next line of toys forget to balance the old ones. Really, what was done with frigates and cruisers need be done to battleships and interceptors.
By your own logic the caldari should then get all missiles boats turned into hybrid ships as due to the reason that their Tier3 BS is not an missile boat and represents the racial identity table.
No. My reasoning is that the top tier Caldari ships should be representative of the Caldari fluff. It is difficult to distinguish which of ECM, railguns or missiles are the strongest for Caldari. For example, the Osprey is fine, it's not part of the Caldari identity, but it is not located in a representative tier, either. Please do remember that racial identity is not a single concept, it is a group of concepts.
- Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:43:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?
I don't see why a concept that has proven unflexible and boring has to be reinforced.
As was said, the Amarrian fluff (backstory) actually has them as unadaptive and unflexible - very much like how most religious groups are by the very nature of their being.
But this is not to say that they can not have the off-shots like the Arbitrator, this is to say that their pride and flagships will be predictable and representative. Unfortunately, we are dealing with added content, without modification to, or adaption of, existing content.
Fluff must be preserved. People make fate deciding choices based on fluff. Fluff is the suspension of disbelief, and suspension of disbelief is the only thing that exceed game balance in priority. However, game balance is not beyond balancing to fluff. There are so many variables that can be tweaked to suit both game balance and fluff.
Or, boiling it down: No, you can't have a odd-ball potship as your highest tier, it's wrong. Yes, you can have it as one of your lower tiers. Sadly, they aren't doing changes where needed. I really sympathise. I want potships, too. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:00:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Grimpak on 02/11/2006 21:06:33
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne if this truely was the case (and according to tux the devs themself have no idea what amarr is supposed to be) amarr has a badly broken core concept. like i wrote above: if our concept was inflexible lasers+tank ships both these fields would have to be significantly better than what the more flexible races can offer.
LIGHT YOU HAVE SEEN!!
that is EXACTLY what I meant.
IF amarr are supposed to be lasers + armor + lasers and armor, than their core concept is broken since: A) lasers are not that "all-powerful", and B), to make the powerful lasers work, you need cap, and cap is lifeblood for tanking aswell.
While an increase of the laser damage is debatable of being healthy or not to the game (read: freakin' hard to balance), one should wonder if increasing the cap in all amarr ships by a flat XX% (yes double digits), and also a boost in their armor HP would not be out of hand.
Originally by: Ithildin Or, boiling it down: No, you can't have a odd-ball potship as your highest tier, it's wrong. Yes, you can have it as one of your lower tiers. Sadly, they aren't doing changes where needed. I really sympathise. I want potships, too.
indeed.
while each race fleet should be as consistent to their core concept as possible, it is also that a bit of oddball-ness here and there should be available, altho it should not be considered as maintray.
I don't consider the arbitrator as mainstray of the amarr fleet, for example. It's an oddball that was developed to be just that: an oddball. just like the inquisitor. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:13:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Ithildin
As was said, the Amarrian fluff (backstory) actually has them as unadaptive and unflexible - very much like how most religious groups are by the very nature of their being.
the backstory also describes us as easily outnumbering the other empires, our ships having nigh unbreakable armor (unless you happen to have a jovian motherhsip handy) and gives us devastating lasers as our weapon of choice.
incidentially the gallente need to go and find some new bonuses for their carrier + mothship because the caldari are actually the fighter specialists. dont worry though gallente get to be the ewar masters in return. minmatar will need to get nerfed across the board unfortunately as they arent really up to date with their ships (at least all the original ones).
i'm sure i could go and find a few more of these.
not all is lost though: while browsing the ships i found that at least the prophecy already has a fitting description: "it was determined after mixed fleet engagements with early prototypes that the Prophecy would be more effective as a slightly smaller, more mobile form of artillery support."
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:18:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne not all is lost though: while browsing the ships i found that at least the prophecy already has a fitting description: "it was determined after mixed fleet engagements with early prototypes that the Prophecy would be more effective as a slightly smaller, more mobile form of artillery support."
while I agree that the description might be misleading, my believe is that "artillery" is meant as "long range fire support", in the prophecy description. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:20:00 -
[348]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 02/11/2006 21:24:38 Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 02/11/2006 21:23:50
Originally by: Grimpak
while each race fleet should be as consistent to their core concept as possible, it is also that a bit of oddball-ness here and there should be available, altho it should not be considered as maintray.
i think we agree there and i already wrote earlier that i would prefer a bs sized arbi at tier 1 or 2. now if tux were to come in and tell us that he plans to change our tier1 or 2 bs to make sure we're not limited to laser+armor, laser+armor and laser+armor that would be great and i could be happy with a gimpy abaddon. as he doesnt seem to have any plans to change the lower tier bs though i will continue to point out that this new battleship is most definately not what we need.
Originally by: Grimpak
I don't consider the arbitrator as mainstray of the amarr fleet...
as far as t1 crusiers go it is _the_ amarrian combat vessel. unless you know exactly what you're up against and can prepare yourself the arbitrator will be your best bet when it comes to amarrian crusiers.
edit: to clarify...the reason for that lie with the crappyness of the omen when it comes to fittings and the extreme inflexibility of the maller. with the geddon and apoc at bs level it wouldnt be as bad.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:20:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Aramendel on 02/11/2006 21:22:31 The problem really is that the amarr "fluff" conflicts with the game balancing.
Amarr are from the fluff supposed to have high dps, strong tank ships, but are not very subtle. Well, one year ago that was pretty much the case. The problem was that this particular fluff was too strong, the uber amarr gankships got nerfed and are now pretty much inline with the other races ship.
Basically: amarr lost the uber gank/tank fluff but still have the inflexible fluff.
Backstory is nice & fine, but when it does conflict with the balance the balance always wins. The backstory is more an inspiration than a codex. And as Udyr Vulpayne said, there are LOTS of colicts between the backstory and what is actually present ingame.
So, basically, amarr need some additional "postive" fluff. The uber gank/tank one just does not work in gamebalance terms, so we won't see that one again. Tux himself also admitted than amarr need some 3rd fluff.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:23:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Grimpak
while I agree that the description might be misleading, my belief is that "artillery" is meant as "long range fire support", in the prophecy description.
the description actually points in a very valid direction for a pvp fitting for our tankers.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:28:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Grimpak
I don't consider the arbitrator as mainstray of the amarr fleet...
as far as t1 crusiers go it is _the_ amarrian combat vessel. unless you know exactly what you're up against and can prepare yourself the arbitrator will be your best bet when it comes to amarrian crusiers.
as the game it is, yes, but considering "fluff", one could say that the mainstray cruiser backbone of the amarrian fleet are the maller and the omen.
unfortunately, as the game is today, it is not
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Grimpak
while I agree that the description might be misleading, my belief is that "artillery" is meant as "long range fire support", in the prophecy description.
the description actually points in a very valid direction for a pvp fitting for our tankers.
unfortunately tbh...
I would like to see the prophecy as a long range firepower platform with sturdy armor (swapping one of those bonuses for a range bonus + adding more grid), while the harbinger would be of a more close-range support firepower (more grid). -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:41:00 -
[352]
Edited by: Serapis Aote on 02/11/2006 21:43:18
Originally by: Ithildin
Or, boiling it down: No, you can't have a odd-ball potship as your highest tier, it's wrong. Yes, you can have it as one of your lower tiers. Sadly, they aren't doing changes where needed. I really sympathise. I want potships, too.
I actually disagree. The tier 3 are new inventions...new deviations, new concepts for each race. Therefore for the Amarr it could be an adaptation of the arbitor for their BS fleet. Because they are not gallente, the ships are more expensive for them to produce, thus making it the most expensive.
In the BS line I actually see the Tier 1 as the baseline epitome of the racial ideology. The cheapest to make because it is the ship the race is the most comfortable with, and most understands.
So if a drone amarr BS is almost as good or better then a domi, it comes at a price. Yes it is better, but it may cost twice as much to own, thus still making the domi a better ship for the money. If both ships are equal in the field, the gallente still wins on price. But the amarr get a new fun ship to play with, instead of just another laser/tank ship.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:49:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Grimpak
I would like to see the prophecy as a long range firepower platform with sturdy armor (swapping one of those bonuses for a range bonus + adding more grid)
well the prophecy like all our tankers suffers from getting a laser cap use bonus. without it it couldnt tank with lasers at all. with the bonus it tanks mediocre while using lasers or real nice with projectiles. as it lacks a good bonus to lasers theres not much reason to prefer them over projectiles. i'm not really sure if there is a viable way to make tanking with lasers a good idea.
as you can see the caldari tankers dont need the capuse bonus so they have a free slot for optimal range which gives them a real incentive to use rails. for them the capuse isnt so bad as they can also fit some launchers for tanking or on some ships try to get a passive tank. and of course staying further away from your enemy helps decreasing damage as well.
one possible idea for our tankers would really be to make them more like the nyxus-abaddon: 1 good bonus to lasers (dmg or range for example) and the 5% armor resist bonus. then add some unbonused launchers for tanking. the ships would have good damage or range in laser mode OR they could tank good with not so great damage in tankmode. of course that also works without launchers and fitting projectiles but that jsut seems more wrong every time you try it.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 22:16:00 -
[354]
Edited by: Grimpak on 02/11/2006 22:17:26
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne one possible idea for our tankers would really be to make them more like the nyxus-abaddon: 1 good bonus to lasers (dmg or range for example) and the 5% armor resist bonus. then add some unbonused launchers for tanking. the ships would have good damage or range in laser mode OR they could tank good with not so great damage in tankmode. of course that also works without launchers and fitting projectiles but that jsut seems more wrong every time you try it.
+5% dmg to lasers +5% armor resists
increasing cap to 5900 (maybe increasing recharge aswell not to permit big unbalancing)
- 1000 shield + 1000 armor
increase grid to 24000
change slot layout to 8/4/7 with 4 launchers and 8 turrets.
one thing about the amarrian ships is that I believe that their fittings should ALWAYS be limited by CPU and not grid. also a dmg bonus would decrease cap consumption. however if cap size is increased, I believe that the ship might be able to cope with 8 laser turrets firing continuously even with a RoF bonus.
this is only a sugestion however.
it runs a bit from the amarrian core conception, but: A) it gives the ship good posibilities of firepower while having a bigger tank and B) it shuts up the amarrian whiners
edit: i'm talking about the abbadon btw -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Nemain
Amarr Obsidian Asylum
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Posted - 2006.11.02 23:33:00 -
[355]
I guess if you wanted to go with background stories, you could always have somthing like -
Due to insecurities within the empire following the death of the emperror, It was decided, to further strenghen the fleet, a new battleship would be designed to fill any holes in the empires defences. The designers of the Archon and arbitrator were originally enlisted to design a micro class of Hybrid carrier/gunship with Tracking disruptor enhancements, to add suport for patrols and outposts. However, When news arrived of the imminent release of a new tier of battleships for the Minmattar and galante Navy, the Ammar Navy command requested that they forget the original plan and come up with an effective battleship design with which to go into production as soon as possible. Taking ideas from the original project and past experience with the arbitrator and archon, the new ship went into production. Due to the greatly reduced design and production time The Micro carrier design was downgraded to drone carrier, and with the help of caldari ally designers the lower number of Laser turrets was bolstered by missile hardpoints, and so the Abbaddon was born. A ship thats design mimics the mixed state of the empire upon it's creation. What it lacks in traditional focus it makes up for in vesatility providing EW, Missiles and Drones as well as the the time honoured Strong Armour and lasers.
That fills any background holes, and uses past and current storylines to validate it's design. Add a line to the rokh saying the number of turrets were maximised with the assistance of amarr ship designers, and there is cross colaberation between allies, that fits both groups storylines.
So ther you have it, Drones you get from past experience with the archon and arbitrator, Tracking disruptors from the crucifier and arb, and missiles from caldari assitance.
Not likley to happen but still it does show that the possibility is there taken from the racial storylines.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:50:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Grimpak
+5% dmg to lasers +5% armor resists
change slot layout to 8/4/7 with 4 launchers and 8 turrets.
Link to the original thread about it from nyxus. still has the 20 slots from the devblog of the time but the general idea remains valid.
i'm thinking this could be one way to impove our entire tanking line from sucky to nice.
+5% armor resist +5% laser damage high number of turet slots for its class medium number of launcher slots for its class small dronebay for its class
- all would work as gank or tank like the tux-abaddon. - as the bonus is +dmg the ships are actually different to the gank line with the rof bonus. - no need to fit matari weapons for a good tank. - our top tier ships would get fitted with correct sized lasers more often
example maller: 5% armor resists 5% laser damage slots: 6/3/6 5 turrets 3 launchers 10m3 dronespace tweak other stats as needed
-> there would finally be a good reason to fit cruiser sized lasers on the maller for damage -> good tank but less damage with launchers
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Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 03:45:00 -
[357]
While I love the new Battlecruisers (mostly) the new Battleships leave a sour taste behind. As a Minmatar I feel I've just been neutered with regards to fleet battles. Where range is paramount the Rokh completely outclasses all other ships. As if that wasn't enough they also have higher base resists giving them a much better chance of warping out. Even a T1 Rokh can outrange a much more expensive Tempest.
I don't want to sound like a whiner, I really don't. However, Caldari seem to be getting all too powerful in comparison to the other races. They have the best missile/npc ship, they have the only effective ECM ships and now they are getting the best snipers. Even if we spend 200 million ISK we just can't compete at maximum range. Where does that leave the rest of us? We might as well just jump into Interceptors/Interdictors and resign ourselves to tackling roles.
Sorry for the negativity. I really do like the Hurricane!
The joys of alliance warfare... |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:04:00 -
[358]
As far as minmatar going fast goes... Unfortunatly the difference between a fast ship and a slow ship in Eve is MWD, not ship type.
Also ship movement is pretty pointless anyways, because warping is so easy and fast...
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 05:26:00 -
[359]
To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:
You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:04:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Nifel To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:
You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?
Rightttt, dont want to ungimp a bad design that shoots itself out of cap, even with injectors, within 2 minutes because of it is almost as good as a Maelstorm. What weapons and ammuntion are you using to make this compairison. What fittings? What range?
The current incarnation of the Abaddon sucks. It does not out damage the geddon (due to drones and geddon can sustain fire for longer time) or out tank the apoc (due to cap limitations).
If the minnies need loving, and with the HP boost, it would seem they do, that is a different issue than lets not fix the abaddon because it makes the minnies ships even worse.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:20:00 -
[361]
7.5% resistance bonus! 2% on ALL low slots!? Are you mad?
Suggesting bonuses are all fine and good, but at least think them through first. The least you can ask is that people compare the bonuses to their peers. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:38:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 03/11/2006 10:41:29 Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 03/11/2006 10:38:37
Originally by: Nifel To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:
You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS.
so? you dont see me complaining that the other 3 races are encroaching on amarrian 8 turret bs territory.
minmatar ships would still have the best alpha and the abaddon would actually do less dps with this bonus instead of laser rof. it would be at least slightly different from the geddon and not run out of cap as fast.
also: tux wants to up artillery damage by 5% to improve minmatar alpha for some reason.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:45:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also: tux wants to up artillery damage by 5% to improve minmatar alpha for some reason.
Yeah, maybe the minor fact that some ships will have perhaps double the current hitpoints has something to do with it. And boosting the damage with 5% will mean nothing. I think he means boosting dps, because 5% wont do anything significant for alpha strikes with the major hitpoint boosting.
Alpha strike could be boosted by 50% and STILL not be as good as before the hitpoint changes. Its just silly...I dont know how ccp are going to solve that problem. They probably wont, and will instead make artillery like railguns...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
LukaG
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:31:00 -
[364]
Hello, I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already but I think its a practical improvement to the Hyperion which has become quite contraversial.
The second bonus on the Hyperion is simply not balanced or in line with the role of the ship. The Hyperion is a short range blaster boat and I think its bonuses should reflect that. More suitable bonuses: -7.5% Tracking bonus (change the one on the mega to the repair bonus?) -7.5% Reduction in MWD cap usage -7.5% Speed or Agility Bonus -5% Armour resist bonus -5% RoF bonus for Hybrid Blasters
Anyway I hope a dev actualy gets to read this, it would be a shame for this ship to be released flawed with the majority of the Gallante flying communtiy considering it as brocken. Thanks for your time.
Luka
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:42:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Yeah, maybe the minor fact that some ships will have perhaps double the current hitpoints has something to do with it.
i'm quiet aware of that. notice how tux also forgot to boost the cap of amarrian laser and gallente blaster boats and increase the aggrotimer for jumping/docking. then theres the issue of boosting already nice passive plate/extender setups over active tanks.
the whole hp boost seems to be poorly thought through. as could be seen on the initial reaction on the forums this does affect a bit more than just fight duration. a lot of rather obvious issues seem to get ignored there. i'm pretty confident that this could have worked a lot better had he started a thread on this a month ago and simply asked what people think of it and how it will affect the game.
regarding the reduced usefulness of alpha: i suspect that your right and artillery will become closer to rails/beams.
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:40:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Nifel To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:
You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?
If there's one thing that Amarr and Minmatar can agree on, it's that both are currently suffering wrt Caldari and Gallente - and that the hit point changes/longer fights changes will only make this worse.
If we use the weakness of projectile ships as an argument for not improving laser ships, then next we'll be using those laser ships as an argument for not improving the projectile ships! Whereas the truth is that both urgently need some 'loving' again from the Devs.
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
SpMind
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:41:00 -
[367]
Edited by: SpMind on 03/11/2006 12:41:24 Abaddon is a new amarrian BS.It must be Highend tech and weapon system. But Abaddon must follow Amarrians traditions of heawy armored warfare and it must use ultimate energy weapons. Drones... this is old school of war, they are not combine with Amarrians thinking and do not combine with highend tech. Main weapon of Abaddon must be energy turrets and systems, this is true tactics of Emperors fleet.
I propose
Add 1 low slot (tier1 and2 have 11 slots (med+low)) tier 3 must have 12. This is a new ship, right? :)
increase cap to 5800-6000
increase grid to 24000
cpu output 580
increase armor and reduce shields @ 1000 points
reduce max targeting range to 67km (Apocs targeting systems :))
And give an ENERGY bonuses, this is Amarrian ship.. isn't that so?
5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level and 10-15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness per
level (range and transfer amount )
In that case we got a new Hi-end energy weapon platform designed for close combat warfare. Or long range fire support
(some dmg for short period of time)
or most simple bonuses, bot not so unusual.
5% Large Energy Turret damage per level and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level.
This is are usual Abaddon. Changing 5% rof to 5% dmg give us a more time to use our weapons but do a little less dps.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.03 13:05:00 -
[368]
Give Abaddon projectile bonus instead of the energy bonus and everyone is happy
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 13:08:00 -
[369]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 03/11/2006 13:09:13
Originally by: Ithildin 7.5% resistance bonus! 2% on ALL low slots!? Are you mad?
Suggesting bonuses are all fine and good, but at least think them through first. The least you can ask is that people compare the bonuses to their peers.
In what way am I mad?
Damage resists:
On a dedicated tanker the resists would only go up no more than 3% over the current 5% max the ship gets now. Not hugh but does give some edge compared to other Tier 3 BS with resist bonuses. After all, Amarr does not have much else beyond tanking and Lasers.
The 2% on all low slot modules:
Tanking resists: would add no more than 1-2% Tanking reps: would add max of 10% Damage mods: current 3xHS2's 33.1% 2% bonus 3xHS2's 46.4
So it could either have the best tank in the game or a great gank. I dont see where that is over powering. It is making the bonus support what the Amarr do the best, use low slots for tanking or ganking.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.11.03 14:01:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Nifel To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:
You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?
Tempest and Typhoon Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed
What can i say.... You're encroaching on Amarr territory?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 14:20:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Yeah, maybe the minor fact that some ships will have perhaps double the current hitpoints has something to do with it.
i'm quiet aware of that. notice how tux also forgot to boost the cap of amarrian laser and gallente blaster boats and increase the aggrotimer for jumping/docking. then theres the issue of boosting already nice passive plate/extender setups over active tanks.
the whole hp boost seems to be poorly thought through. as could be seen on the initial reaction on the forums this does affect a bit more than just fight duration. a lot of rather obvious issues seem to get ignored there. i'm pretty confident that this could have worked a lot better had he started a thread on this a month ago and simply asked what people think of it and how it will affect the game.
regarding the reduced usefulness of alpha: i suspect that your right and artillery will become closer to rails/beams.
Yeah, this whole thing is exacly the can of worms everyone said it would be. I just hope they manage to fix all the problems coming from this change...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.03 14:39:00 -
[372]
If the Abaddon is going to be a tanking boat/fleet ship make it a tanking boat.
+5% armor resists per level +10% armor hp per level
8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.
Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.
The Tier 3 amarr ship should be a massive tanker as that is Amarr's specialty. Missiles make MUCH MUCH more sense from a backstory perspective as Caldari + Amarr are friends. The Khanid line also shows how strongly they have influenced Amarr ship design.
Variety. Doesn't repeat and overshadow Apoc and Geddon as much. Non-cap use weapons + 2 tanking bonuses make for an actual tank that is substantially better. Keeps to the backstory.
That is what the Abaddon should be tbh.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:01:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Nyxus
+5% armor resists per level +10% armor hp per level
8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.
Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.
wouldnt have any cap problems in fleet ops at all. without a bonus to laser damage/rof/optimal and no laser cap use bonus theres no reason to prefer lasers over 1400mm artillery.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:06:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Nyxus
+5% armor resists per level +10% armor hp per level
8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.
Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.
wouldnt have any cap problems in fleet ops at all. without a bonus to laser damage/rof/optimal and no laser cap use bonus theres no reason to prefer lasers over 1400mm artillery.
Sure there would: DPS. Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:28:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Nyxus Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.
With 8 Tachyon Beam and multi lenses you have a dps of 212 against an apoc. With 8 1400 Artis and emp projectil you have a dps of 136 against an apoc.
As you have to fit RCU's to actually be able to fit 8 tachyon beams on an apoc and tachs suck a hell of a lot cap you are not able to use them for long time while tanking, so that we are back to the point that you are better with using projectils.
But I think that is getting to much off topic here is the discussion is about the Tier3 BS.
I would be happy if Tux or an other Dev that has to do with the Tier3 Bs could actually post in here so that we might get the feeling that they read our concerns here and if they plan to do anything about it as it surely seems there is a very big balancing issue.
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volly
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:21:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Nyxus If the Abaddon is going to be a tanking boat/fleet ship make it a tanking boat.
+5% armor resists per level +10% armor hp per level
8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.
Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.
The Tier 3 amarr ship should be a massive tanker as that is Amarr's specialty. Missiles make MUCH MUCH more sense from a backstory perspective as Caldari + Amarr are friends. The Khanid line also shows how strongly they have influenced Amarr ship design.
Variety. Doesn't repeat and overshadow Apoc and Geddon as much. Non-cap use weapons + 2 tanking bonuses make for an actual tank that is substantially better. Keeps to the backstory.
That is what the Abaddon should be tbh.
Nyxus
/signed
.... and paint it black of course
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:09:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Nyxus
Sure there would: DPS. Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.
Nyxus
heh...now lets see what we have else.. we have resistances!
80% BSs use armor tanks. 100% BSs have base EM res 60-70% 100% BSs have base EXP res 10-20%
And if you use fusion shells, you recive almost similar DPS. But 0 cap use, and easier fitting.
Originally by: Nyxus If the Abaddon is going to be a tanking boat/fleet ship make it a tanking boat.
+5% armor resists per level +10% armor hp per level
8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.
Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.
In this case it will be Apoc MK2 - Howitzer platform
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Soratah
Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:48:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Soratah on 03/11/2006 18:49:36
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Nyxus Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.
With 8 Tachyon Beam and multi lenses you have a dps of 212 against an apoc. With 8 1400 Artis and emp projectil you have a dps of 136 against an apoc.
As you have to fit RCU's to actually be able to fit 8 tachyon beams on an apoc and tachs suck a hell of a lot cap you are not able to use them for long time while tanking, so that we are back to the point that you are better with using projectils.
But I think that is getting to much off topic here is the discussion is about the Tier3 BS.
I would be happy if Tux or an other Dev that has to do with the Tier3 Bs could actually post in here so that we might get the feeling that they read our concerns here and if they plan to do anything about it as it surely seems there is a very big balancing issue.
You mean like that 70-page "Amarrian ships" thread in ships and modules that was completely ignored a couple of weeks back.
Despite the Amarrians being an older spacefaring race their pinnacle of technology are:
Lasers Drones Tracking Disruptors Nos (the most recent)
The ONLY success Amarr ships have are with Nos, in fact the Curse and Pilgrim are incredibly deadly to ANY turret-using ship in this universe because of their inherent bonii. If a Curse pilot with 2 Tracking Disruptors and medium nos caught ANY Amarrian BS then the BS would be forced to dock, jump, or die. That's IT.... The Geddon is a good ship for combat with high dps.. but to match the dps of a Megathron you HAVE to have T2 Weaponry and heatsinks..
Drones are a borrowed technology to protect ships from fast-movers, it has limited success on the Arbitrator models (again one of the most favored and diverse ships). The Abaddon, the pinnacle of technological achievement in the Battleship field is.... what... Rehashed.... oh dear.
I remember CCP saying they had clear concepts of which each ship's role will be. Prey tell us the concepts that were thrown out by the dev team for this tragic ship.
Oh well, Amarrians get another ship that rich people will buy to sit in their hangers and look at it occasionally. Saying to themselves "Yes, nice looking with big drone bay doors on the front and every essence looking like a big chunky useful drone carrier. Phew, what a hack job!"
People have number crunched and layed out their maths on this forum so it's a very big case in favour of changing the Abaddon. Yet, despite this wealth of public opinion and mathematical dissection... who here believes that the Abaddon will be on TQ with the EXACT same setup as it does now?
It's great being Amarrian ain't it?
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:09:00 -
[379]
Tier 3 BS One is for laser users One is for projectile users Two are for hybrid users Zero are for missile users Why?
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:23:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Zixxa Tier 3 BS One is for laser users One is for projectile users Two are for hybrid users Zero are for missile users Why?
Well it could be that since Cal already have the best EW BS, the best Missile BS, and are now getting the best Rail BS, this seems like your just trolling.
Now if you want to talk about one of the gimped BS like Amarr or Minnie there is lots to talk about. Even the Gal is not that great a ship. The Rokh is the best LR ship in the game once it makes in for Kali, so your point is?
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Tarazed Aquilae
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:37:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Zixxa Tier 3 BS One is for laser users One is for projectile users Two are for hybrid users Zero are for missile users Why?
Maybe it would be a good idea to make the new Amar BS a missile boat like the raven, with armor tanking instead or shield tanking. Make it 8 high, 4 mid, 8 low slots with 4 turrets and 6 missile slots. Give it a +5% missile ROF and +5% armor resistances per level.
You would give the Amar one hell of a mission runner which is something they really need. Yes, it would step on the RavenÆs toes some, but it would show the results of gaining Caldari technology. Besides, the Caldari are getting an awesome new BS that displaces the Gallente and Minmatar ships for fleet battles.
Just a thought.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:10:00 -
[382]
No missile hardpoints on t1 Amarr ships goddammitt :E sjss.. I don't wanna HAVE to fit missile launchers to have a decent ship :/ If I wanted that I'd train Caldari, okay ?
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:55:00 -
[383]
Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 03/11/2006 22:56:37 Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 03/11/2006 22:55:35 Just finished a short test of Abaddon's tanking capabilities at SiSi and I must say that for the purpose I've been planning to use Abaddon for it seems to be perfect for this ship. And no, that's not a good thing. Read on.
Firstly, my setup.
HI: 6* Heavy Diminishing Nos MED: 2* Heavy electrochem (booster 800) 2* Cap Recharger II LOW: 1* F85 damage control (could be eanmii, could be capmod, could be additional hardener) 1* Armor Kinetic Hardener II 1* Armor Thermic Hardener II 1* Armor Explosive Hardener II 3* Large Armor Repairer II RIGS: 3* Trimark
So what does this setup do besides drain out of cap? Well, it runs one LARII nearly nonstop, with some nosses it runs two LARII nonstop and if all nosses are sucking energy from someone it'll run all three LARII nonstop. With omnihardener setup it tanks around 700dps as I just proved on FFA2 (Moros in siege mode couldn't kill me, neither could a carrier - citadel torps had way too high alpha though and Abaddon went pop).
So what I'm planning to use this for? Why, complex tanking of course. If I change the omnihardener setup to two damage type specific, I start to get so insane tanking figures for this ship that it really gets a specific role, a reason to exist: At its current state Abaddon will be an awesome complex tanker. No, it can't shoot anything seriously but all you need is to get aggro in plex and you're all set for some easy plex lovin'.
So yea, Abaddon can actually take a beating at least as long as there's something to NOS. The real issue is that it really doesn't seem to be able to do anything else making it useless for everyone else who doesn't act as the tanker of their local plexrunner group.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.04 00:30:00 -
[384]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 04/11/2006 00:31:35 miss post
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.04 07:56:00 -
[385]
Tested the Hyperion today. WOW. What a piece of junk. Anything it can do, the Mega can do better. Can't fit a dual large rep tank on the Hyperion w/ 8x Ions. The DPS is really poor with electrons, and it's missing 20% drone DPS compared to the Mega. A huge disadvantage, especially if you're out of cap or ECMed.
The Hype's biggest advantage over the mega is it's rep bonus. In order to maximize this you need to run two reps. Unfortunately running plates is more efficient due to the HP change, but that's also not without it's drawbacks (to blaster boats, not to other battleships) due to mass problems.
8 blasters and two reps chew through even MORE cap per second than the Mega does. With the maximum cap usage pretty much completely limited by how fast the injector can be fired/reloaded, the Megathron can easily exceed it's capacity, and the Hyperion is even worse.
It's cap with respect to the Megathron isn't any improvement. It still dies just as quickly, if not more so due to the additional demand of the 8th gun. With such low DPS due to using electrons and only having 4 drones, combat becomes a cap war with whoever having more cap charges being the winner.
An autocannon Abaddon absolutely TORE ME APART. Wasn't even close. His tank never dropped below 85%. Killed all my drones, then killed me off with little effort. I simply ran out of cap.
Every fight I have now I use ALL of my cap charges. Every fight is down to the last charge. I simply can't do enough DPS fast enough before I run out of cap charges. REALLY f#cking sucks. If you're not near a station with a steady supply of charges, forget using blasterboat battleships in the future, and probably BCs as well.
Because I said so...
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Mastin Dragonfly
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.04 08:26:00 -
[386]
Originally by: murder one An autocannon Abaddon absolutely TORE ME APART. Wasn't even close. His tank never dropped below 85%. Killed all my drones, then killed me off with little effort. I simply ran out of cap.
Maybe everyone is meant to use projectiles...
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.04 10:07:00 -
[387]
The problem remains the same as before with two of these ships, as I and several others have highlighted ever since their concepts became known: * Hyperion tries to do the same thing as Megathron - BAD design. * Abaddon tries to do the same thing as Armageddon and Apocalypse - BAD design. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Bailian Moxtain
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Posted - 2006.11.04 11:55:00 -
[388]
The hyprion is sh***ty
Give it mwd and large hyb bonus
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.04 12:57:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Logan Xerxes on 04/11/2006 12:58:35 Having flown the Rokh on the Test server, I can confirm it's not overpowered. You end up using most of your cap not on your shields but on your guns, especially if you have AM loaded. Which you have to load if you want to do any sort of decent damage. And as I have pointed out plenty of times before, the Mega WILL out damage the Rokh below 60km. This thing is definitely a fleet ship, not a skirmisher.
Edit: this isn't a "whaa boost!" post. I Think the ship is overall quite balanced.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.11.04 13:41:00 -
[390]
Just for completeness' sake I will comment here on the ships I have flown and tested.
Rokh- Great overall balance, it's inherently tough shields(great universal resists with reasonable fitting, 23hp/s passive regen stock with my skills) balances the fact that you can't give it the cap it needs to run the guns and tank as well as you like and see on other battleships, because with the cap to do both "meh, okay" it can choose to tank so well not even the gods can stop it. It leaves me wanting it to be more, while still making me very happy. Which is a good sign.
Hyperion- the armor rep bonus is really something of a joke, either make it a slow supertanking rail platform and make the mega a blaster boat, or give this ship a couple less turret hards, a tracking bonus instead of a tank amount, and a role bonus MWD bonus ala vindicator. If it goes fast enough for speed to matter it can't hit where the thorax can, and if it goes too slow the ship isn't designed to tank THAT well.
Abaddon- Maybe it is because amarr is secondary to me, but I just couldn't make this ship do anything well. I'd like to see it get 3-4 missile hards, an expanded dronebay, and perhaps change the turret ROF bonus to an armor rep amount bonus, or a bonus to any lowslot items as was suggested earlier, which I think is brilliant. Give the amarr a versatile ship able to throw the enemy a curveball.
In Corporate Caldari, taxes pay YOU. |
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Reto
The Last Resort
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Posted - 2006.11.04 13:54:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Just for completeness' sake I will comment here on the ships I have flown and tested.
Rokh- Great overall balance, it's inherently tough shields(great universal resists with reasonable fitting, 23hp/s passive regen stock with my skills) balances the fact that you can't give it the cap it needs to run the guns and tank as well as you like and see on other battleships, because with the cap to do both "meh, okay" it can choose to tank so well not even the gods can stop it. It leaves me wanting it to be more, while still making me very happy. Which is a good sign.
Hyperion- the armor rep bonus is really something of a joke, either make it a slow supertanking rail platform and make the mega a blaster boat, or give this ship a couple less turret hards, a tracking bonus instead of a tank amount, and a role bonus MWD bonus ala vindicator. If it goes fast enough for speed to matter it can't hit where the thorax can, and if it goes too slow the ship isn't designed to tank THAT well.
Abaddon- Maybe it is because amarr is secondary to me, but I just couldn't make this ship do anything well. I'd like to see it get 3-4 missile hards, an expanded dronebay, and perhaps change the turret ROF bonus to an armor rep amount bonus, or a bonus to any lowslot items as was suggested earlier, which I think is brilliant. Give the amarr a versatile ship able to throw the enemy a curveball.
u know if u mwding u receive a load of dmg in battle with a blastership. the brutix has its rep bonus not without a reason. so does the hyperion. on the otherhand every tier 3 bs has a rep bonus, why make hyperion an exception ?
Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.04 14:08:00 -
[392]
The real problem I have with being a Minmitar Tragic is this;
The Typhoon remains unbalanced. Three weapon systems is a big no-no. Make it to 6 siege launchers and drones plus an armor tank - make is a small roaming gank-squad specialist that is non gun specialised. No bonus changes just more launchers. Now there is competition with the Raven. CHOICE!
The Tempest is a versatile gunboat. Change nothing. It can be a fleet ship or a autopest. It is just about right. Perhaps give it one more turret but that's it.
The Maelstrom concept is fine - a shield tanking fleet artillery boat. So why introduce a design more suited to autocannons? I am really concerned that all the suggestions in these forums will be ignored.
Minmitar had alpha strike - which has just been nerfed. We had range, which thanks to the t2 ammo nerf has been reduced. What now? What design and operational concept is left for Minmitar ships? The desperate desire to prolong combat is the exact opposite of how Minmitar ships work in fleet actions. So how do you conceptually deal with this?
Enough whinging; conceptually, this ship reminds me of the old monitor class ships of the early 20th century. Monitors were big, slow tubs which were used to smash shore defences with very long range artillery bombardments.
Adopting this philosophy for the Maelstrom indicates that the suggested 10% shield hit points increase per bs level is the tankability aspect. Leave the shield recharge rate as it is, making the shield tank a passive thing of beauty.
Make the ship the slowest thing around. Its a tub remember, not a gunboat like the Tempest. This removes the temptation to mount autocannons, but who cares, its a fleet boat.
Artillery is death at a distance. It should be one shot , one kill but that's now impossible. Make it the same range as the Rokh , so there is now a clear choice, Minmitar v Caldari. That's right; choice! This is a artillery boat, so FALLOFF is king. Give it a fall off bonus. Not an optimal bonus.
Ammo. Use the damage aspect associated with t2 Tremor Ammo/t1 carbonised lead to deal with damage. Arty is alpha strike but dps is being made king. I suggest reviewing ammo to adjust for damage and rof.
Whatever happens, the game developers MUST review this ship otherwise they are really crimping this race for fleet actions. The balance here is to use the ammo as key differentiator, with it having a damage and rof effect that matches the Rokh.
On another point, the game thrives on variety yet the designers are deliberately destroying variety. Unless they are careful, we may as well train Caldari as they have the most balanced and considered character ship path.
This is a valid criticism of CCP. Kali has been coming for months, yet these obvious problems do not appear to have been well considered. How come that happened?
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:02:00 -
[393]
hehe
well i just found out that a 4 nos / 4 electron / triple rep hype is kinda fun and a very tough nut to cr.ack
strange setups ftw
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Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:01:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Ithildin The problem remains the same as before with two of these ships, as I and several others have highlighted ever since their concepts became known: * Hyperion tries to do the same thing as Megathron - BAD design. * Abaddon tries to do the same thing as Armageddon and Apocalypse - BAD design.
Agreed. These ships need a specific role, that existing ships do not fill. Personally, I'd make Hyperion a rail platform, and then maybe slightly tweak Mega to make it a bit faster / more agile. As it stands now, Mega is a better blaster ship anyway.
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:28:00 -
[395]
Speaking of unique role for Abaddon, I'd still like to see +10% range and +7.5% dmg to smartbombs on it. I've done the math with old info and if anyone wants I can re-do the math but IIRC those were the values that make Abaddon a "tank until shoot" kind of a ship. Main purpose would be of course sitting at gates stopping pesky frigate gangs.
Oh well, one can dream...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.04 18:37:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Gragnor
The Maelstrom concept is fine - a shield tanking fleet artillery boat. So why introduce a design more suited to autocannons? I am really concerned that all the suggestions in these forums will be ignored.
I think it will be ignored, but not because the devs are ebil. Its because they still feel that the current bonuses are better than the ones suggested.
Now in Kali with the extra hitpoints, the alpha strike will be laughed at. Its unavoidable. I mean, ships get about 100% more hitpoints depending on number of shield extenders etc. How do you compensate for that in alpha strikes without making it overpowered or meaningless? You dont. So my guess is they make artillery like railguns.
But seriously, they should make the ship into a bigger Hurricane. Everybody loves that ship. I havent heard anybody dislike it. Its perfection because its focused on one role and it does it well. Thats how you make a good ship. You dont put random bonuses and slots on it and say "versatile".
I would design the Maelstrom into a fast, armor tanking autocannon boat, which is basicly the complete opposite what it currently is. Oh well, ill stick to the Hurricane and the command ships.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.04 19:30:00 -
[397]
I had an interesting idea for the minmatar ships...
...after all they are supposed to be versatile - but split slot layouts are weak, not versatile.
So instead give them overlapping hardpoint numbers and dual-use bonusses.
i.e. 8 high slots, 6 turret, 6 launcher hardpoints. 4% bonus to rate of fire of projectiles and launchers.
Now you can mix and match turrets and launchers without losing your bonus, tweak whichever way you want. A truely versatile ship.
If you want to take that further then give it 6 low and 6 mid - and give it a 5% rep bonus to both shield and armour.
Now try to predict what that beauty is gonna throw at you!
A truely versatile ship, while at the same time not being ultra-uber at any one thing (as it gets lower bonusses, but applicable to more things).
Zarch AlDain
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Lindsey
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Posted - 2006.11.04 19:49:00 -
[398]
The ab shud imo get sum dronage luvin' or at least give it summat different than the poc. Atm there is nothin to really distinguish the 2 .
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:56:00 -
[399]
The Abaddon in it's current form is barely useful, and only in a handfull of situations. As stated many times before it is just a bastard ship, nothing new really.
My solution: Make the Abaddon a NOS-boat. Give it a nos/neutralizer bonus (10% like the Bhaalghorn) and a laser cap bonus. Reduce it's grid slightly and give it extra CPU, slot layout 8-4-7 or 8-3-8 would both fit it's role. The ship would be a mean tanker with low damage output, giving it a damage or resist bonus with the drain bonus would probably be too much.
Give that resist bonus to the Apoc, it really needs it.
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Vito Parabellum
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.04 21:04:00 -
[400]
Tried AC abaddon and it performed exceedingly well, fought a blaster mega, blaster hyp, rokh and... a pulse/nos abaddon. It just kicked ass, in a slow fashion as you could fire guns while having 0 (nosable) cap, and a tank of a god.
Then I tried the tachyon abaddon with 4 tracking modules and 4 heatsinks. With the tech 2 ammo Gleam. Before you had a range of about 45kms with this setup, now its down to 20kms. And this with penalties like crappier tracking speed and very low shields. Although I feel that ranges of 200+ with the long range t2 ammo could be nerfed there was absolutely no need nerfing the short range ammo to the point of uselessness. Im happy I dont have that bpo heh.
Results with the tachy abaddon? High dps but it didn't manage to take half the armor of a tanking blaster mega (standing perfectly still) before the guns shut down.
Now of course you can fit it with rigs and cap boosters to maybe make it shoot long enough to break the tank and pop the ship, but really why wouldnt you just use a much cheaper geddon and do exactly the same without the hassle?
My conclusions are that the AC abaddon is the king of close range combat, you are silly if you use gleam over multifrequencies, you are silly if you use tachyons on a abaddon instead of a geddon, and that a pulse abaddon will perish to an AC abaddon.
My fix... change rof to damage bonus and you have a less stupid ship. Don't think it will fix much though, I would still fit AC's close range and use my geddon long range.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.04 22:12:00 -
[401]
Made these for a different thread, but figured someone might find them useful here as well:
Damage/Range comparison for T2 Snipers in Kali Damage/Range comparison for short range ships in Kali Damage/Range comparison for mid range shis in Kali (mid range being defined as using long range weapons without tracking computers, fairly arbitrary definition admittedly, but it might be useful to someone)
Rip them to shreds at your leisure.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:31:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Made these for a different thread, but figured someone might find them useful here as well:
Damage/Range comparison for T2 Snipers in Kali Damage/Range comparison for short range ships in Kali Damage/Range comparison for mid range shis in Kali (mid range being defined as using long range weapons without tracking computers, fairly arbitrary definition admittedly, but it might be useful to someone)
Rip them to shreds at your leisure.
There are lies, **** lies and statistics. But on the basis of this; Minmitar ships have been nerfed out of the fleet game. They have gone from l33t to very much also ran. Perhaps that's what CCP wants. All I know is I have gone from being the best to being the 3rd or 4th best and I am not happy about it, given the MONTHS of training time it took me to get where I am.
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stainage
Gallente Final-Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:41:00 -
[403]
What i find funny if how CCP have made the new Gal bs a better rail boat than the Mega but that it seems completly useless as a blasterboat compared to the Mega. I think you got something a little wrong here ccp and please change it. the problem i found was the lack of low slots on the hyperion... rep bonus means it needs two reps...that means 3 hardener to help keep this up as you do with all dual rep setups...and then as most blaster ships you need a damage control......so wheres my damage mods....8x electron blasters suck a little especially with no damage mods. then you think o well im sure i can last long enough cause as I'm in a gal ship i have a 5 heavy drone capable drone bay...no wait i don't but yet the geddon does :S. Please fix this CCP.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.05 00:41:00 -
[404]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 05/11/2006 00:44:00 about arty and rails here a little comparsion
neutron vs 425mm ac prosconsequalininfluential 1400mm vs 425mm rails pros consequal ininfluential note: put alpha in ininfluential after the hps boost, before it had it use... cap usage is ininfluential in long range for these guns as the cap consumption is very low in a sniping/fleet scenario
seem balanced?
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Paladineguru
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.05 06:38:00 -
[405]
hyperion needs a pg boost and another low slot that or jsut somehting to make it even half way useful , the mega is a better ship for both roles
that or make the hype a missle boat in line with other gal mixed weapons load ships like the tristan, ares, celestis, eris, and megathron
gallente use missles too on 1/3 of thier ships no reason not to continue that
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Lirt
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.05 09:22:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 09:22:50 Just tested the Rokh and im wondering why when its a fleet ship you have to fit pg mods in order to fit 8 425s t2, even with advanced weapon upgrades 5? It makes the whole idea fall apart, Rokh really needs a bit more pg so when you have awu 5 to be able to fit 8 turrets without pg mods. Otherwise why we even train these skills when we end up with 'help' mods anyway.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:02:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 09:22:50 Just tested the Rokh and im wondering why when its a fleet ship you have to fit pg mods in order to fit 8 425s t2, even with advanced weapon upgrades 5? It makes the whole idea fall apart, Rokh really needs a bit more pg so when you have awu 5 to be able to fit 8 turrets without pg mods. Otherwise why we even train these skills when we end up with 'help' mods anyway.
Tempest (19375 PG) - 6x1400 2 (20287.8 PG) = -912.8 PG Maelstrom (26250 PG) - 8x1400 2 (25740 PG) = 510 PG
Megathron (19375 PG) - 7x425 2 (16537.5 PG) = 2837.5 PG
Apocalypse (24375 PG) - 8xMegabeam 2 (25740 PG) = -1365 PG Apocalypse (24375 PG) - 8xTachyon 2 (29700 PG) = -5325 PG Armageddon (20625 PG) - 7xMegabeam 2 (22522.5 PG) = -1897.5 PG Armageddon (20625 PG) - 7xTachyon 2 (25987.5) = -5362.5 Abaddon (26250 PG) - 8xMegabeam 2 (25740 PG) = 510 PG Abaddon (26250 PG) - 8xTachyon 2 (29700 PG) = -3450 PG
Rokh (18750 PG) - 8x425 2 (18900 PG) = -150 PG
So only the Megathron, Mealstrom and Abaddon when using Megabeams can fit all their guns without requiring a fitting mod. Of those the Megathron is the only one with enough grid left to fit the rest of the ship, but it has an empty high slot which isn't taken into account. Of the ships that need fitting mods to fit all their guns, the Rokh is by far in the best condition since it is only a measly 150 grid short while the others are anywhere form 900 (with 2 empty high slots) to 5000 grid short.
Seems like the Rokh has it pretty well off if you ask me, but if you are going to boost the Rokh grid, be sure to boost the Tempest's, Apocalypse's, Armageddon's and Abaddon's grid while your at it. After all they have to suffer the shame of using a fitting mod as well. Not to mention that the Rokh can probably get away with 2x PDU IIs, and we know how much those gimp shield tanks.... Oh, wait a minute...
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Lunas Feelgood
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:12:00 -
[408]
Hyperion new fleet rail bs in kali
Alpha strikes 4TW..
Blasters?? you joking right
Btw I thought I read somewhere that the hyperion was a dedicated blasterboat, I could be wrong
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Lirt
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:36:00 -
[409]
Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 11:38:03
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Tempest (19375 PG) - 6x1400 2 (20287.8 PG) = -912.8 PG Maelstrom (26250 PG) - 8x1400 2 (25740 PG) = 510 PG
Megathron (19375 PG) - 7x425 2 (16537.5 PG) = 2837.5 PG
Apocalypse (24375 PG) - 8xMegabeam 2 (25740 PG) = -1365 PG Apocalypse (24375 PG) - 8xTachyon 2 (29700 PG) = -5325 PG Armageddon (20625 PG) - 7xMegabeam 2 (22522.5 PG) = -1897.5 PG Armageddon (20625 PG) - 7xTachyon 2 (25987.5) = -5362.5 Abaddon (26250 PG) - 8xMegabeam 2 (25740 PG) = 510 PG Abaddon (26250 PG) - 8xTachyon 2 (29700 PG) = -3450 PG
Rokh (18750 PG) - 8x425 2 (18900 PG) = -150 PG
So only the Megathron, Mealstrom and Abaddon when using Megabeams can fit all their guns without requiring a fitting mod. Of those the Megathron is the only one with enough grid left to fit the rest of the ship, but it has an empty high slot which isn't taken into account. Of the ships that need fitting mods to fit all their guns, the Rokh is by far in the best condition since it is only a measly 150 grid short while the others are anywhere form 900 (with 2 empty high slots) to 5000 grid short.
Seems like the Rokh has it pretty well off if you ask me, but if you are going to boost the Rokh grid, be sure to boost the Tempest's, Apocalypse's, Armageddon's and Abaddon's grid while your at it. After all they have to suffer the shame of using a fitting mod as well. Not to mention that the Rokh can probably get away with 2x PDU IIs, and we know how much those gimp shield tanks.... Oh, wait a minute...
Im fine with that, boost the other ships pg too if they cant fit 8 turrets with max skills. By the way im talking about the tier 3 BSs dont tell me about the tier 1 and 2, those are now like that and i doubt they will be changed soon, or at all. But saying the Rokh only needs 150 pg while others need more is wrong cause when i fit the pdu i get not only 150 pg but more and the others will too, maybe i get eventually some spare pg while others are full but whats the point if i wont use it. My argument is that having max skills and not be able to fit the ship its max turrets makes the skills useless. Why get awu 5 when you will still need pg mods. Yes you will get a little more pg but it doesnt worth the whole effort cause the pdu or the rc will give that to you anyway with or without awu 5. And dont tell me about pdus shield boost, its not that great, yes maybe it increases it but i dont want it to be a MUST for the ship in order to get full damage.
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Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:45:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Hyperion new fleet rail bs in kali
Alpha strikes 4TW..
Blasters?? you joking right
Btw I thought I read somewhere that the hyperion was a dedicated blasterboat, I could be wrong
That was the plan. Of course as it is now, mega is clearly a better blaster ship. Just change hyperion into a sniper boat, or a dampener boat, so it has a clearly defined role. Right now it's a sorry a$$ excuse for a megathron. Mega does everything hyperion can, only better.
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Talostan Gurt
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.05 13:53:00 -
[411]
Well what can I say. The Amarr T3 bs sucks so hard i dont know why i am amarr. The cap useage is pants and most ppl are fitting auto cannons on for godsake. Amarr are energy weapons not poxy AC's.
Very very very disapointed. Soon to take out my fleet fitted geddon to see how teh T3 bs (and i mean bs as in B*******) can handle it.
Poor show CCP hope something drastic happens b4 the mighty Kali is released........................
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 14:11:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 09:22:50 Just tested the Rokh and im wondering why when its a fleet ship you have to fit pg mods in order to fit 8 425s t2, even with advanced weapon upgrades 5? It makes the whole idea fall apart, Rokh really needs a bit more pg so when you have awu 5 to be able to fit 8 turrets without pg mods. Otherwise why we even train these skills when we end up with 'help' mods anyway.
Tempest (19375 PG) - 6x1400 2 (20287.8 PG) = -912.8 PG Maelstrom (26250 PG) - 8x1400 2 (25740 PG) = 510 PG
Megathron (19375 PG) - 7x425 2 (16537.5 PG) = 2837.5 PG
Apocalypse (24375 PG) - 8xMegabeam 2 (25740 PG) = -1365 PG Apocalypse (24375 PG) - 8xTachyon 2 (29700 PG) = -5325 PG Armageddon (20625 PG) - 7xMegabeam 2 (22522.5 PG) = -1897.5 PG Armageddon (20625 PG) - 7xTachyon 2 (25987.5) = -5362.5 Abaddon (26250 PG) - 8xMegabeam 2 (25740 PG) = 510 PG Abaddon (26250 PG) - 8xTachyon 2 (29700 PG) = -3450 PG
Rokh (18750 PG) - 8x425 2 (18900 PG) = -150 PG
So only the Megathron, Mealstrom and Abaddon when using Megabeams can fit all their guns without requiring a fitting mod. Of those the Megathron is the only one with enough grid left to fit the rest of the ship, but it has an empty high slot which isn't taken into account. Of the ships that need fitting mods to fit all their guns, the Rokh is by far in the best condition since it is only a measly 150 grid short while the others are anywhere form 900 (with 2 empty high slots) to 5000 grid short.
Seems like the Rokh has it pretty well off if you ask me, but if you are going to boost the Rokh grid, be sure to boost the Tempest's, Apocalypse's, Armageddon's and Abaddon's grid while your at it. After all they have to suffer the shame of using a fitting mod as well. Not to mention that the Rokh can probably get away with 2x PDU IIs, and we know how much those gimp shield tanks.... Oh, wait a minute...
Uh, you should be taking at least engineering lvl4 into account. I've got it at five and I don't need any fitting mods for a full rack of 425's on my Rokh.
Oh and make the Hyperion a Sensor dampening rail-boat below average armor. Clearly defined non-useless role that fits together.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:29:00 -
[413]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 05/11/2006 15:30:12
Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 09:22:50 Just tested the Rokh and im wondering why when its a fleet ship you have to fit pg mods in order to fit 8 425s t2, even with advanced weapon upgrades 5? It makes the whole idea fall apart, Rokh really needs a bit more pg so when you have awu 5 to be able to fit 8 turrets without pg mods. Otherwise why we even train these skills when we end up with 'help' mods anyway.
Well, I am guessing my skills are better than yours.
Engineering 5 Electronics 5 Weapons Upgrades 5 Advanced Weapons Upgrades 5 Controlled Burst 5
I had no problem putting full rack of 425s a light passive shield and had range of 195. Nor the best tank fitting but I liked the 10+k shields. For pure LR gank, add TC2, Sensor Booster IIs, and CR2s FTW, the low slots get MS2s and another sensor booster for range and tracking.
Nice damage and most range in the game. That is why I am currently traning Cal BS 5.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:40:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Well, I am guessing my skills are better than yours.
Engineering 5 Electronics 5 Weapons Upgrades 5 Advanced Weapons Upgrades 5 Controlled Burst 5
I had no problem putting full rack of 425s a light passive shield and had range of 195. Nor the best tank fitting but I liked the 10+k shields. For pure LR gank, add TC2, Sensor Booster IIs, and CR2s FTW, the low slots get MS2s and another sensor booster for range and tracking.
Nice damage and most range in the game. That is why I am currently traning Cal BS 5.
Yes, a full rack of 425mm's fits... if you use tech 1 guns. The poster you responded to was talking about tech 2 guns in his post. Those do not fit without grid mods, regardless of what skills you have.
That said, if you are properly skilled, one single fitting mod or grid rig will be enough to fit a standard fleet gank setup with full offensive focus. Only if you want a tank as well as 8x 425mm t2, then you need two or more fitting mods. So I guess it's quite okay as it is.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:41:00 -
[415]
mah, imo it should get 6-7 turrets and not 8, or make fitting more difficult...
in its current state it makes every other fleet bs obsolete with good dps, huge range and tank...
to balance all the mods that it save with its weapon/sensor range and res bonus it really need to lose something or to make fitting comparable to other BS.
even racewise it doesn't make that much sense for it to have 8 turrets as caldari are not a "focused" turret race
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.05 16:01:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Ath Amon to balance all the mods that it save with its weapon/sensor range and res bonus it really need to lose something or to make fitting comparable to other BS.
It does. It has no offensive bonuses whatsoever (range is a tactical bonus). It is the slowest of all battleships in the game. It is the heaviest of all battleships in the game. It has the biggest signature of all battleships in the game. It has the smallest drone bay of all battleships in the game. It has the worst scan resolution (i.e. worst locking time) of all battleships in the game.
People only look at slot layout and powergrid when judging a ship's capabilties, and in this they fail to see the full picture.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.05 16:12:00 -
[417]
Originally by: Logan Xerxes Uh, you should be taking at least engineering lvl4 into account. I've got it at five and I don't need any fitting mods for a full rack of 425's on my Rokh.
Oh and make the Hyperion a Sensor dampening rail-boat below average armor. Clearly defined non-useless role that fits together.
The numbers listed assume Engineering 5, Advanced Weapons Upgrades 5 and TECH 2 TURRETS.
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Ryn0
coracao ardente Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:52:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Mysterlee Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53 The reason I think the Hyperion, Abaddon and Maelstrom have turned out so bad is because CCP is trying to give them roles that are already filled.
I personally think the hyperion should become a sensor dampening bs. 8-7-4 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints, 5% large hybrid damage and 5% sensor damp effectiveness per level, it should have a limited grid but plenty cpu.
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.
I'd like something like that but i'd like to see the Maelstrom be a webber/painter ship. And i like the Rokh how it is so no touching it |
killerco
Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:33:00 -
[419]
I'm disappointed in the looks of the hyperion ccp Was it so hard too come up with new looks instead of the megathron look
Don't be a great man just be a man |
source
Amarr Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:48:00 -
[420]
Read most of the thread, but couldn't go through all that with my short attention span.
Got to thinking a little about the tier 3 Bs's and came to the conclusion (who hasn't) that the Gallente/Amarr tier 3's are both a little too redundant for most players taste.
Also that got me thinking about how to possibly give them more bonus' with out overpowering them. Perhaps give them a ROLE BONUS like with destroyers/battle cruisers only more geared towards their race's personal flavor. e.g. Abbadon role bonus: 50% bonus to cap use with lasers. Gallente role bonus: 25/50% reduction in mwd cap. needs (just place holders. Don't want to make other ships (geddon) obselete.
Anyways, just something I thought of. 99% sure it is too late now and there is some flaw (like giving the rokh another bonus) but like i said. Just a thought
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Lirt
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.05 21:02:00 -
[421]
Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 21:03:28 Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 21:03:10
Originally by: Ishina Fel Edited by: Ishina Fel on 05/11/2006 15:40:59 Yes, a full rack of 425mm's fits... if you use tech 1 guns. The poster you responded to was talking about tech 2 guns in his post. Those do not fit without grid mods, regardless of what skills you have.
That said, if you are properly skilled, one single fitting mod or grid rig will be enough to fit a standard t2 fleet gank setup with full offensive focus. Only if you want a tank as well as 8x 425mm t2, then you need two or more fitting mods. So I guess it's quite okay as it is.
I think even with awu 4 and a pg mod you can still fit 8 turrets + your rest fitting, thus making awu 5 obsolete. (Im talking about 8 x 425 Railgun II).
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:09:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Originally by: Ath Amon to balance all the mods that it save with its weapon/sensor range and res bonus it really need to lose something or to make fitting comparable to other BS.
It does. It has no offensive bonuses whatsoever (range is a tactical bonus). It is the slowest of all battleships in the game. It is the heaviest of all battleships in the game. It has the biggest signature of all battleships in the game. It has the smallest drone bay of all battleships in the game. It has the worst scan resolution (i.e. worst locking time) of all battleships in the game.
People only look at slot layout and powergrid when judging a ship's capabilties, and in this they fail to see the full picture.
i'm speaking in fleet/long range config... in such situation all these cons are meaningless
is not a problem of full picture, the problem is that in its role it have almost no cons and make everything else obsolete.
the damage is lower than other fleet BS, but imo not enought to make it balanced and its better range is more than enought to balance it out not to say that also it will probably be able to fit an additional damage mod so the difference will be lower than the one shown on graphs
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:27:00 -
[423]
I just had a brilliant idea: reduce the Hyperion's turret slots to 6, leaving 8 highs. And change the damage bonus per level for Gallente BS to 16.5% per level. And then add enough grid to allow for 6x Ion 2s, 2x heavy nos, and 2x t2 large reps w/ a mwd and heavy cap injector. Might work fine then.
Because I said so...
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:49:00 -
[424]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 05/11/2006 22:48:53
Originally by: murder one I just had a brilliant idea: reduce the Hyperion's turret slots to 6, leaving 8 highs. And change the damage bonus per level for Gallente BS to 16.5% per level. And then add enough grid to allow for 6x Ion 2s, 2x heavy nos, and 2x t2 large reps w/ a mwd and heavy cap injector. Might work fine then.
LOL
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:03:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 21:03:28 Edited by: Lirt on 05/11/2006 21:03:10
Originally by: Ishina Fel Edited by: Ishina Fel on 05/11/2006 15:40:59 Yes, a full rack of 425mm's fits... if you use tech 1 guns. The poster you responded to was talking about tech 2 guns in his post. Those do not fit without grid mods, regardless of what skills you have.
That said, if you are properly skilled, one single fitting mod or grid rig will be enough to fit a standard t2 fleet gank setup with full offensive focus. Only if you want a tank as well as 8x 425mm t2, then you need two or more fitting mods. So I guess it's quite okay as it is.
I think even with awu 4 and a pg mod you can still fit 8 turrets + your rest fitting, thus making awu 5 obsolete. (Im talking about 8 x 425 Railgun II).
It's not obsolete - think how bad it would be if you didn't have AWU!
Zarch AlDain
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:07:00 -
[426]
Edited by: Ishina Fel on 06/11/2006 00:08:39
Originally by: Lirt
Originally by: Ishina Fel Yes, a full rack of 425mm's fits... if you use tech 1 guns. The poster you responded to was talking about tech 2 guns in his post. Those do not fit without grid mods, regardless of what skills you have.
That said, if you are properly skilled, one single fitting mod or grid rig will be enough to fit a standard t2 fleet gank setup with full offensive focus. Only if you want a tank as well as 8x 425mm t2, then you need two or more fitting mods. So I guess it's quite okay as it is.
I think even with awu 4 and a pg mod you can still fit 8 turrets + your rest fitting, thus making awu 5 obsolete. (Im talking about 8 x 425 Railgun II).
You are thinking wrong, unfortunately. Now, this has been posted before in this thread, but allow me to demonstrate again:
Rokh: 15'000 base powergrid.
Engineering 5: 15'000 * 1.25 = 18'750
425mm Railgun II large hybrid turret, 2'625 grid.
8 Turrets: 2'625 * 8 = 21'000
Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5: 21'000 * 0.9 = 18'900
Balance: 18'750 available - 18'900 need = -150 final
To fit just a full rack of 425mm t2's, you are invariably short on grid, regardless of your skills. At best you can reduce the additional grid needed to 150, allowing you to get by with only one fitting mod or grid rig (provided you don't want to fit a tank).
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:07:00 -
[427]
here an example of rokh uberness...
rokh vs mael in fleet config
graph
rokh is using 4 damage mods mael is using 3 damage mods and 3 tracking comp/enh
so we have a situation with 4 vs 6 mods, on top of that the mael need 2 sensor boosters to fight in 150-200km range, while the rokh need just 1
so the rokh is saving 3 slots and as you can see the dps difference is minimal (under 7%), also i alredy added the 5% damage boost that should be implemented to "balance" the lack of alpha, whitout that boost the dps is almost identical.
both ships will probably need 1 fitting mod, expecially if they want to use damage rigs
so after the that fitting, with results shown in graph, we have 5 free slots + 25% to res for the rokh to fit an uber tank, while the mael have 2 free slots and a useless shield boost
a similar discussion can be done for the abaddon, while the res bonus, dps, and tankage will be better than the mael, it will need to fit cap rechargers to run its lasers, so what it will eventually gain in slots will be used to fit tons of cap rec
note: i'm using old T2 ammos, so situation should be even better for the rokh with new ones
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Urza Rast
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:59:00 -
[428]
Please rework the Abaddon, most everything that has needed to be said is already posted. So I am voicing my support for the reworking of this ship.
Thanks
Will the owner of the Amarr nerf bat please put it down and step away slowly. |
SkyCrane
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Posted - 2006.11.06 08:10:00 -
[429]
Why not just reduce the overall capusage on energy turrets? That unimaginative 10% capusage on energu turrets per level is getting boring. Time for a rethink me thinks... I liked the Abaddon's bonuses up untill I tested her on SiSi. I ran out of cap almost instantly.
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:20:00 -
[430]
Originally by: starship enginer
eg: 3200mm tungston, [2x HP of 1600mm] with 1.5k PG and 30 odd cpu [i think this is needed since we are seeing crusiers and BC with more than BS native HP
Hmm i might just bee mistaken but dont plates already give you about 30% more hp then a shield extender. I know that a lot of the new things in kali favore shield appose to armor especially caldari but a 3200mm plate whould be like 70% more then the corrosponding shield tanking equipment. Faster shield recharging with the extenders do make up for some om the 30% lost ground but extending that even further sounds like it would favore armor tanking a little to much...
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:37:00 -
[431]
Well, you could introduce an XL Shield Extender at the same time while you're at it. After all, the biggest extenders at the moment are battlecruiser sized. You can't fit a proper passive shield tank on a caldari/matari battleship or bigger, those all need active shield tanks (or go armor, in the Minmatar case).
Not sure how Kali changes that, but I personally wouldn't mind some extra-large plates and extenders being added, as there is a distinct lack of true BS sized HP boosters. Contributes to the whole "make fights last longer" idea anyway.
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:18:00 -
[432]
Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/10/2006 22:38:07 Regarding the minnies vs others:
Hyperion shouldn't be faster than Maelstrom. Not w/o a MWD.
Rokh should be as equal of a sniper as temp and mega, NO better. Yeah, they wanted a sniper but why make it better than all the others? We dont have any 6 msl turret bs's or 8 midslot bs's, no one gets an equivelent to Caldari, why should Caldari get an equivelent/better ship than our best?
Maelstrom's SB bonus is crap, i think we all (including tux) can agree on that. A HP boost is kinda dumb too. I guess it will stick though unless they can find a more appropriate bonus, (plz god dont change it to TP bonus)
Because the caldari have the BIGGEST HUMP of flying scrap metal (next to minmatars dread/carrier/titan), snipers rely on shooting a couple of targets and then getting the F*** out of there...lets see what happens when you have a ship with about twich the over all size as all the other sniping ships in EVE....afcause its goig to be vulnable just in another way then the tempi or the mega...arguing that one rases ship can be bether the another is not really a good argument as a lot of ships in eve rivel each other and people tend to forget that
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:20:00 -
[433]
including a XL extender would properly just give caldari a upper hand with bether pasive tanking aswell....i still say that xl shield extenders should be left out of the game after all caldari have got a XL booster to compensate for the "lack" of shield HP.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:50:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Nemtar Nataal including a XL extender would properly just give caldari a upper hand with bether pasive tanking aswell....i still say that xl shield extenders should be left out of the game after all caldari have got a XL booster to compensate for the "lack" of shield HP.
No, in all seriousness: a passive tanked battleship will have some 30% less peak recharge than a passive tanked battlecruiser, while having about 40% more shield HP. (I can give you the math on this if you wish)
Thus it may seem that the BS has the slight advantage in short duration fights (a minute or two). However, the battlecruiser has only half its signature, which directly translates into taking considerably less damage. Therefore the battlecruiser /always/ clearly outtanks a BS when we're talking passive shield tank. In all other modes of tanking, battleships are equal to or outperform their smaller cousins. Therefore it makes sense to allow for some way to at least make them equal passive tankers as well.
Also. Has it occured to you that maybe, that XL extender could be suitably balanced against new plates to NOT totally pump passive tanking off the scale? Less crying murder, more logic, please.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:02:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Drake or Ferox with 3 extenders, 2 invul, 4 relays: 20016.25 in 460.8, 108.59 peak recharge @ 55.00% EM, 82.00% EX, 73.00% KN, 64.00% TH, signature 360 ------------- Rokh with 4 extenders, 2 invul, 2 shield relays, 1 cap relay, 1 tracking mod, 1 signal amp: 28500 in 960, 74.22 peak recharge @ 55.00% EM, 82.00% EX, 73.00% KN, 64.00% TH, signature 600 ------------- Raven with 4 extenders, 2 invul, 4 relays, 1 signal amp: 27000 in 614.4, 109.86 peak recharge @ 40.00% EM, 76.00% EX, 64.00% KN, 52.00% TH, signature 560
You're forgetting the reistance bonus on the Rokh.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:26:00 -
[436]
1. Do the passive tank comparison on the Maelstrom (it's got 75% the recharge rate of the Rokh, iirc)
2. While smaller signature radius usually translates to less damage taken, bear in mind that a signature radius of 360m will mean very very little in terms of damage reduction. Except if the opponent is using torpedoes, which most ships do not.
3. He didn't forget the resistance bonus on the Rokh - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:36:00 -
[437]
Looks so to me. 2 inv fields on all ships and the same resitances on all of them. Did I miss something?O_o
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:49:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Nifel Looks so to me. 2 inv fields on all ships and the same resitances on all of them. Did I miss something?O_o
Yup. Drake, Rokh, and Ferox have the same resist (55% EM) while Raven has lower (40% EM). Drake, Rokh, and Ferox has the resistance bonus, Raven does not. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:49:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Nifel Looks so to me. 2 inv fields on all ships and the same resitances on all of them. Did I miss something?O_o
Drake, Ferox and Rokh all have the same resistances. Raven has lower.
Zarch AlDain
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:55:00 -
[440]
Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 06/11/2006 13:57:47
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Also. Has it occured to you that maybe, that XL extender could be suitably balanced against new plates to NOT totally pump passive tanking off the scale? Less crying murder, more logic, please.
first of all dont quote me as a cry baby...really doesnt soot this discusion...
Second have you considered that a XL extender might just be used on a BC add the room for extra modules which will give way for more whining from pilotes who do not try and pasive tank a caldari ship?
Third we really dont need to add modules to the game that potentially will allow a BS to tank like if it was a capital ship. Ships in eve can tank so much and if thats not enough you need to move up to another ship level.
After adding 3200mm plate and a XL extender i suppose that people will start complaning about why there are not a XL armor rep...
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:56:00 -
[441]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Nifel Looks so to me. 2 inv fields on all ships and the same resitances on all of them. Did I miss something?O_o
Yup. Drake, Rokh, and Ferox have the same resist (55% EM) while Raven has lower (40% EM). Drake, Rokh, and Ferox has the resistance bonus, Raven does not.
Right... I'll go shoot myself in the head o_O. The resists are wrong anyway btw :s. Should be 61.77% em on rohk/ferox/drake and 48.27% on raven.
/me wanders off muttering about the virtues of food
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.06 16:10:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Nemtar Nataal Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 06/11/2006 13:57:47
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Also. Has it occured to you that maybe, that XL extender could be suitably balanced against new plates to NOT totally pump passive tanking off the scale? Less crying murder, more logic, please.
first of all dont quote me as a cry baby...really doesnt soot this discusion...
Second have you considered that a XL extender might just be used on a BC add the room for extra modules which will give way for more whining from pilotes who do not try and pasive tank a caldari ship?
Third we really dont need to add modules to the game that potentially will allow a BS to tank like if it was a capital ship. Ships in eve can tank so much and if thats not enough you need to move up to another ship level.
After adding 3200mm plate and a XL extender i suppose that people will start complaning about why there are not a XL armor rep...
Unless of course the power requirement on XL shield extenders made them very hard to fit on a battlecruiser...
Zarch AlDain
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Nova Beta
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.06 18:32:00 -
[443]
WHAT THE HELL
the new caldari is getting 10% per lvl to optimal range!
at same time T2 ammo is reduced to 80%?
are we looking for 250km engagements now? or was the deal to cut down sniper range?
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THRASHER23
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Posted - 2006.11.06 18:56:00 -
[444]
What I don't like about the hyperion is the lack of agility and speed. If the boat is suppose to travel quickly and beat the hell out of its target then it really needs to be fixed. Whats w/ ccp nerfing the tracking and the dmg mod for the blaster ammo? Why nerf something thats in the primary role of a ship? Its defeating the purpose to nerf the blaster ammo on a blaster ship. I mean people train for months to get t2 weapons and ccp slaps you in the face and makes them less effective. But staying on track, the Hyperion needs to be able to fit all 8 blasters, mwd, standard pvp setup in the mids and have dual reps w/ a dcu, and a few mag stabs. Along w/ fixing the agility and speed issue it would fit is purpose as an excellent blaster boat. Idk how ccp gives caldari a great Tier 3 bs can can completely jack up the other races. Caldari pilots basically have a fleet ship handed to them and it fits its role to the "T" for its duty in the battlefield. Get it together CCP and stop coveting 1 race.:P
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:37:00 -
[445]
thought it would be funny to try my normal bhaal mission fitting (i know waste of ship for missions but i don¦t care) at abaddon ...
Bhaal:3*cap recharge t2, cap relay 25% Abaddon: 2* cap recharge T2, pds t2 8.5% recharge 5% more cap (needed a bit grid to fit), 2* turret cap usuage rigs each 15%, 10% cap recharge rig
with my not so bad skills and rest of fitting (damage mod etc) bhaal produces 24.9 cap every second
same damage mod at abaddon produces a cap recharge of 16,26 every second (one less cap recharge, thought the rigs would compensate it a bit ..."thought")
now i have fitted 6 mega beams T2: cap usuage at bhaal 24,85 per second (great i gain cap when i only use guns) at abaddon cause of bs5 and this nice refire rate bonus : 47,87 cap usuage every second you loose 31 cap every second without even using an armor repair come on ccp you can only use 2 (yes TWO) Mega Beams T2 at an abaddon without loosing cap? isn¦t that a bit insane?
so pls when someone spot me in abaddon don¦t shoot back, i cannot use an armor repair and i will run out of cap refore i reach your hull anyway
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:47:00 -
[446]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 06/11/2006 22:48:28 The big problem here is the start point CCP has taken for the design of these ships. The Caldari range of ships has been the template for this change, the best place for a 3rd Caldari BS is as a tier 3 ship so the decision has been made to shoe horn a tier 3 BS in for the other 3 races whether they like it or not.
This start point is the cause of all the issues as it is flawed.
What should be done (from a pure ship balance point of view) is to standardise the 3 tiers of Battleships in much the same way that frigates and to a greater extent, cruisers have been done.
I will stick my neck out and say that the majority of EVE players would not want all of the new BS to be tier 3 just for the sake of it. They need to fit in with the design precedents already set.
The design precedent for the new battleships should follow roughly that of the cruisers eg.
Tier 1 = Electronic Warfare Tier 2 = Racial Offensive Trait Tier 3 = Fleet Orientated Racial Defensive Trait
So for Amarr,
Tier 1 = Abaddon (In the mold of a bigger Arbitrator) Tier 2 = Armageddon (Omen style) Tier 3 = Apocalypse (Maller equivalent, change the cap amount bonus to armour resists)
Gallente,
Tier 1 = Hyperion (Celestis equivalent) Tier 2 = Dominix (Vexor on steroids) Tier 3 = Megathron (Thorax)
Minmatar
Tier 1 = Typhoon (Big Bellicose with Target Painter bonus, unpopular I know but thats a function of TP's being junk not the ship.) Tier 2 = Tempest (Alter it to be a larger Stabber) Tier 3 = Maelstrom (Modified to be a big Rupture style hard hitting boat, like the tier 2 BC)
Yes, before anyone jumps on me I did suggest a bigger Bellicose for the Minmatar. I also think that Target Painting should be reworked somewhat, I don't think a BS sized Bellicose would be bad it's just that Target Painters need work.
Also, any ships that have moved up a tier should be boosted slightly to be on a par with its peers. The big issue created here is one of sudden increases in mineral value of ships that get boosted a tier.
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AlexCA
Amarr De Valken BV
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:50:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Tier 1 = Abaddon (In the mold of a bigger Arbitrator) Tier 2 = Armageddon (Omen style) Tier 3 = Apocalypse (Maller equivalent, change the cap
Switch the apocalypse and abaddon hull around there IMO. Shame to let those nicely modeled turret hardpoints on the abaddon model go to waste.
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:55:00 -
[448]
Originally by: AlexCA
Originally by: Parallax Error
Tier 1 = Abaddon (In the mold of a bigger Arbitrator) Tier 2 = Armageddon (Omen style) Tier 3 = Apocalypse (Maller equivalent, change the cap
Switch the apocalypse and abaddon hull around there IMO. Shame to let those nicely modeled turret hardpoints on the abaddon model go to waste.
Agreed, but not as much of a shame to have a tier 3 BS released which has no clear design behind it other than well Caldari are getting one so the other races need one shoved in there as well.
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Vampire Lord
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Posted - 2006.11.07 05:34:00 -
[449]
I think The New T3 Minmatar BS should be a Missile Boat. A bigger version of the typhoon. Not a Weaker Version of the Tempest. Becuase I think with the way things look a Shield Tankout out DPS Tempest could take the T3 Version. I mean if were gona keep up at this rate why not just get rid of Minmatar all together an create another sub race from caldri. Then we might get some luv.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.07 07:20:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Vampire Lord I think The New T3 Minmatar BS should be a Missile Boat. A bigger version of the typhoon. Not a Weaker Version of the Tempest. Becuase I think with the way things look a Shield Tankout out DPS Tempest could take the T3 Version. I mean if were gona keep up at this rate why not just get rid of Minmatar all together an create another sub race from caldri. Then we might get some luv.
ther's alredy the phoon that can become a missile boat just adding 2 missiles slots and removing the turret rof bonus
in the end i think the mael idea is not bad, but it suffer for arty actual crapness and the wrong bonus...
10% to shield hp and a substantial arty revamp can make it a good fleet arty platform (possibly comparable to rokh) and a good (but static) ac passive platform.
and then we get
phoon: fast missile boat pest: agile versatile proj platform (both ac and arty) mael: passive shield arty (or even ac) platform
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MinRray
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.07 08:47:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Parallax Error Edited by: Parallax Error on 06/11/2006 22:48:28 The big problem here is the start point CCP has taken for the design of these ships. The Caldari range of ships has been the template for this change, the best place for a 3rd Caldari BS is as a tier 3 ship so the decision has been made to shoe horn a tier 3 BS in for the other 3 races whether they like it or not.
This start point is the cause of all the issues as it is flawed.
What should be done (from a pure ship balance point of view) is to standardise the 3 tiers of Battleships in much the same way that frigates and to a greater extent, cruisers have been done.
The design precedent for the new battleships should follow roughly that of the cruisers eg.
Minmatar
Tier 1 = Typhoon (Big Bellicose with Target Painter bonus, unpopular I know but thats a function of TP's being junk not the ship.) Tier 2 = Tempest (Alter it to be a larger Stabber) Tier 3 = Maelstrom (Modified to be a big Rupture style hard hitting boat, like the tier 2 BC)
Yes, before anyone jumps on me I did suggest a bigger Bellicose for the Minmatar. I also think that Target Painting should be reworked somewhat, I don't think a BS sized Bellicose would be bad it's just that Target Painters need work.
Also, any ships that have moved up a tier should be boosted slightly to be on a par with its peers. The big issue created here is one of sudden increases in mineral value of ships that get boosted a tier.
/signed
"war ... war never changes" |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 09:37:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Parallax Error So for Amarr,
Tier 1 = Abaddon (In the mold of a bigger Arbitrator) Tier 2 = Armageddon (Omen style) Tier 3 = Apocalypse (Maller equivalent, change the cap amount bonus to armour resists)
Truely the best way to fix our battleships! For all I care, switch the models around, but please, give us distinct roles.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Ryo Jang
Central Defiance Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.07 11:26:00 -
[453]
the abbadon needs cap. nuff said. right now its completely silly.
give it a 10% turret cap bonus per level, and 5-10% cap capacity per level, and things will be sweet.
i dont particularly care about it being just another laser bs. thats what they are for! if you want EW, thats what your cruiser wingmates are for! and that still doesnt stop you from fitting any form of EW and still using it fairly effectively, for instance, i quite regularly use a target painter on my geddon.
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SpMind
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Posted - 2006.11.07 11:47:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Ryo Jang the abbadon needs cap. nuff said. right now its completely silly.
give it a 10% turret cap bonus per level, and 5-10% cap capacity per level, and things will be sweet.
lol 2nd Apoc... 2nd Amarrian ship designed for Minmatars ^_^
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 11:48:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Parallax Error So for Amarr,
Tier 1 = Abaddon (In the mold of a bigger Arbitrator) Tier 2 = Armageddon (Omen style) Tier 3 = Apocalypse (Maller equivalent, change the cap amount bonus to armour resists)
as has been said before this seems pretty much perfect for amarrian battelships. now we just need to find out why tux doesnt like it/hasnt managed to come up with this pretty obvious idea himself.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 11:53:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Ryo Jang
i dont particularly care about it being just another laser bs. thats what they are for! if you want EW, thats what your cruiser wingmates are for! and that still doesnt stop you from fitting any form of EW and still using it fairly effectively, for instance, i quite regularly use a target painter on my geddon.
so you think our tier 3 bs should really just be a copy of the geddon/apoc with slightly better stats then?
also: our ew-cruiser (thats the arbi) lacks the range bonus of the caldari versions. you wont be able to use it effectively against longrange battleships. same goes for any other non-caldari-ewar ship.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.07 12:41:00 -
[457]
The best thing to do would be to change the new battleships to cover roles not provided so far. So we'd have, for example:
- Rokh: stay as is, it's a previously missing role - Maelstrom: maybe a missile platform with bonus to painters? - Abaddon: a bs-size Arbitrator, drones and tracking disrupt - Hyperion: a bs-size sensor damp platform
That would give all races some sort of EW-capable battleship (though the Minmatar version would be a very offensive variant), and would skip the current duplicated functionality which is the root of the problems here.
If two ships in the same class share the same role, balancing them becomes a *****. Almost inevitably, one of them is the better ship and the other one becomes a hangar ornaments.
Don't duplicate functionality, create new roles.
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Vampire Lord
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:18:00 -
[458]
Edited by: Vampire Lord on 07/11/2006 14:23:14 Honestly We should save that for BS sized or BC sized Recon ships. These are t3 BS not EW platforms. An the more I think about it Making the minmatar t3 BS a missile boat would make since. Bonuses & Stats as Follows: High slots: 8 High Missile Slots 4 Guns Slots 8 High Slots Med Slots - 6
Low Slots - 5
5% Missile ROF per lvl 7.5% Shield Boost or 5% Shield Resist Honestly Changing the Maelstrom to this would make up for the crapy shield Boost an still play well. The Role Of a tank Missile Boat would still come into play an still fit the minmatar way. An honestly would make up for the super nerf to t2 minmatar ammo. Which gets gets a 8dmg nerf per were all other ammo gets a 4dmg nerf. What do you guys think about this?
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:47:00 -
[459]
What I think of 8 launchers with the same dmg bonus as the raven? I think you would have a bunch of furious caldari pilots (read: half of eve) after you.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Vampire Lord Edited by: Vampire Lord on 07/11/2006 14:23:14 Honestly We should save that for BS sized or BC sized Recon ships. These are t3 BS not EW platforms. An the more I think about it Making the minmatar t3 BS a missile boat would make since. Bonuses & Stats as Follows: High slots: 8 High Missile Slots 4 Guns Slots 8 High Slots Med Slots - 6
Low Slots - 5
5% Missile ROF per lvl 7.5% Shield Boost or 5% Shield Resist Honestly Changing the Maelstrom to this would make up for the crapy shield Boost an still play well. The Role Of a tank Missile Boat would still come into play an still fit the minmatar way. An honestly would make up for the super nerf to t2 minmatar ammo. Which gets gets a 8dmg nerf per were all other ammo gets a 4dmg nerf. What do you guys think about this?
Your missing a fundamental point, which is there isn't an actual role for 2 possibly 3 of the races tier 3 battleships. They only overlap with what is already there. We need a new battleship for each race of whatever tier fits the pattern as opposed to 4 new tier 3 battleships.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:04:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Forsch What I think of 8 launchers with the same dmg bonus as the raven? I think you would have a bunch of furious caldari pilots (read: half of eve) after you.
Well, while I think 8 launchers + damage bonus might be excessive, there is nothing wrong with the idea of a Minmatar missile bs.
Caldari have railguns + missiles, Minmatar have projectiles + missiles. At the moment, Caldari have the only missile bs in the game, but there is no reason not to introduce another one for the Minmatar, it *is* a racial weapon for them.
More variety is good.
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Dirk Starjammer
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:34:00 -
[462]
mmmm... a minmatar missile boat... very ingenious.
I definitely could see it. 7.5% rof for cruise & seige launchers with the target painter bonus too.
Oh the horror
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:49:00 -
[463]
That role would best fit the Typhoon imo. Just add a few launcher slots. Tempest could be tweaked a bit to be an autocannon ship and Maelstrom the artillery fleet ship just as it was planned.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:02:00 -
[464]
Typhoon - missile boat + drones - small squad ganker - the longer combat times actually mean that being torpedo heavy is now viable in PvP; so make the phoon 8 high slots 6 missile launchers + drones. A versatile small gang kick ass ship.
Tempest - versatile artillery platform or gunboat. Change nothing, perhaps agility improvement a little but nothing more.
Maelstrom - Artillery platform. Alpha strike's been nerfed out of existence, so replace it with range. Give this ship the ability to do damage at a distance. Lift Falloff (not optimal). To those who say that the game developers want close range combat - I say this - why introduce a railboat which out ranges everything else then? That way you can have the passive hp tank which works.
You know it makes sense
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:13:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Gragnor You know it makes sense
What's the difference between an artillery platform and a gunboat? One cannot move?
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:14:00 -
[466]
We could use a dev reply if the ships have a chance of getting redesigned. Otherwise its pointless to discuss.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:20:00 -
[467]
Edited by: Noriath on 07/11/2006 19:25:22 There is really no point in giving other races EW capable battleships as long as they have to use junk-EW that is not even close to as effective as ECM.
While I do agree that the current designs for Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr are stupid, because they pretty much aren't anything new, but just a more specialized ship based on an existing setup that makes the race even more one dimensional to play, if you want EW capable ships there first has to be an effort made to make all EW desirable to even use over ECM on a large scale, which is just not happening with dampers which have no extreme range where they would really matter, and don't work on extremly short range where Gallente ships have to go anyways. (Which was fine if they were good for countering long range atacks...) and tracking disruptors have the same issue, no range to speak of, tracking becomes a neglegable factor in fleet fights anyways, and in small gang combat there is just no justification for carrying a module that merely disrupts the functions of guns when you can just as well use one that completly shuts down all targeted modules.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:49:00 -
[468]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
We could use a dev reply if the ships have a chance of getting redesigned. Otherwise its pointless to discuss.
QFT.
Because I said so...
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MiIes Naismith
Amarr Guru Clan
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:55:00 -
[469]
Edited by: MiIes Naismith on 07/11/2006 19:59:34 tbh theyd have been better off giving the caldari exactly what they got , a decent railboat, and giving the rest of the races the one thing they need since unless they are purposely favoring caldari by giving them the most options and imho each race should have a missle boat. every race has frigs that use them even gallente, and it would balance out claims of the raven being the ubermobile and before u tear me up , i think every race maybe for tier 4 should get a drone bs similar to domi, yet each race needs to keep its flavor too and tbh the new ships dont really live up to the point of bringing new ships in , which is the key word "new" only the caldari have gotten something they needed. the amar got shafted all together the minmatar got the ship that ALMOST could and the gallente got a ship that looks great for what its supposed to do , till you try to fit it and figure out it needs a better slot layout OR a cap recharge bonus or mwd bonus or something to let it fit 8 neutrons and a tank like any pilot will tell u is what the BEST blasterboat should be able to do. because for a ship that the designers stated goal was to create the ultimate close range ship, compared to a t2 torp raven they utterly failed.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:14:00 -
[470]
Soooo... is this (below) something what all the different camps (devs excluded) want?
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
Caldari. As is. Seriously, let's ignore the missile-humpers since they've got their fallos launcher BShip already
Gallente. ti1 - Damp. Dominix hull, Celestis design (switch lows and mids, drone bonus to damp, and drone bay reduced to around 125m¦) ti2 - Drone. Mega hull, +300m¦ drone and drone bonus instead of tracking bonus ti3 - Blast. Hyperion hull, Hyperion design, but Megathron bonuses
Minmatar. ti1 - 'bond. Typhoon hull, but faster. Everyone's favourite bastard. ti2 - AC. Tempest hull, got an idea for this, I do. Read below. ti3 - Arty. Maelstrom hull, although with a better more arty-beneficial bonus such as shield hit points or (heaven forbid) arty optimal.
Tempest: Well, if it's going to be a competative AC boat, especially if the "Megathron" gets another turret, it'll need something extra to what it's got today. Another turret hardpoint? It's not like it can cram another 1400mm in there, to be honest, so ACs is all it's going to really benefit, right?
Now, don't get too caught up with all those letters, just read the first word on each tier to get the "feel" - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:35:00 -
[471]
seems people are coming around to my ideas of specialized classes more like cruiser. My first post on this is way back in the thread.
Just wanted to re-point out my phoon bonus structure.
TP bonus larger bonus then the Belicose pls. ROF Bonus to all weapon turrets (yes all).
I think the mael should be the bigger stabber - more of a vertical layout, and looks faster
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:36:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Ithildin Soooo... is this (below) something what all the different camps (devs excluded) want?
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
Caldari. As is. Seriously, let's ignore the missile-humpers since they've got their fallos launcher BShip already
Gallente. ti1 - Damp. Dominix hull, Celestis design (switch lows and mids, drone bonus to damp, and drone bay reduced to around 125m¦) ti2 - Drone. Mega hull, +300m¦ drone and drone bonus instead of tracking bonus ti3 - Blast. Hyperion hull, Hyperion design, but Megathron bonuses
Minmatar. ti1 - 'bond. Typhoon hull, but faster. Everyone's favourite bastard. ti2 - AC. Tempest hull, got an idea for this, I do. Read below. ti3 - Arty. Maelstrom hull, although with a better more arty-beneficial bonus such as shield hit points or (heaven forbid) arty optimal.
Tempest: Well, if it's going to be a competative AC boat, especially if the "Megathron" gets another turret, it'll need something extra to what it's got today. Another turret hardpoint? It's not like it can cram another 1400mm in there, to be honest, so ACs is all it's going to really benefit, right?
Now, don't get too caught up with all those letters, just read the first word on each tier to get the "feel"
Really well done
Although...for minnie please switch tempest and mael hulls for the stabber type speed ship...the mael just looks like it wants to go fast
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 21:06:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Ithildin
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
sounds pretty good to me. the tankers need to get a real overhaul to adress the tanking with lasers problems though.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:00:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ithildin
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
sounds pretty good to me. the tankers need to get a real overhaul to adress the tanking with lasers problems though.
What I was thinking of was something along the lines of: +5% resistances and +10% capacitor capacity.
Essentially, while it doesn't have a capacitor use bonus the way the other Amarr ships do, it's got a really nice and nifty capacitor capacity bonus that's just as powerful if you look at laser cap usage PER CAP RECHARGE. Then you add in that it'll also let you manage capacitor much more etc. and you have a really nasty tank. Will it do ****loads of damage? No. Not really. Will it be nastier than the current Apoc? Hell yes!
Actually, if the devs do take that up, the capacitor capacity bonus will more likely become +5%, but it's still well enough. It CAN tank a hell of a lot better than anything else, and it'll not be SOL for cap if it tries to shoot it's guns.
Should be noted that I've got a very strong reservation about the tier 1 Amarr drone ship Arbitrator-style - the tier 2 or 3 Gallente must be a drone ship then (and I think the Megathron's hull, slot layout, and everything else would be perfect if the tracking bonus got changed to drone bonus along with an increased drone bay).
Here's a draft/suggestion: High: 7 (5 turrets, 4 launchers) Mid: 5 Low: 6 CPU: 600 Powergrid: 12,000 Drone bay: 300m¦ +10% drone damage and hit points, +5% tracking disruptor efficiency
Again, provided the Megathron got turned into a drone ship and the Dominix turned into one of those famous GallCal war era EWar ships that Gallente used... And the Hyperion got turned into a Megathron with short short lock range and slightly better CC stats. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:01:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ithildin
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
sounds pretty good to me. the tankers need to get a real overhaul to adress the tanking with lasers problems though.
What I was thinking of was something along the lines of: +5% resistances and +10% capacitor capacity.
Essentially, while it doesn't have a capacitor use bonus the way the other Amarr ships do, it's got a really nice and nifty capacitor capacity bonus that's just as powerful if you look at laser cap usage PER CAP RECHARGE. Then you add in that it'll also let you manage capacitor much more etc. and you have a really nasty tank. Will it do ****loads of damage? No. Not really. Will it be nastier than the current Apoc? Hell yes!
Actually, if the devs do take that up, the capacitor capacity bonus will more likely become +5%, but it's still well enough. It CAN tank a hell of a lot better than anything else, and it'll not be SOL for cap if it tries to shoot it's guns.
Should be noted that I've got a very strong reservation about the tier 1 Amarr drone ship Arbitrator-style - the tier 2 or 3 Gallente must be a drone ship then (and I think the Megathron's hull, slot layout, and everything else would be perfect if the tracking bonus got changed to drone bonus along with an increased drone bay).
Here's a draft/suggestion: High: 7 (5 turrets, 4 launchers) Mid: 5 Low: 6 CPU: 600 Powergrid: 12,000 Drone bay: 300m¦ +10% drone damage and hit points, +5% tracking disruptor efficiency
Again, provided the Megathron got turned into a drone ship and the Dominix turned into one of those famous GallCal war era EWar ships that Gallente used... And the Hyperion got turned into a Megathron with short short lock range and slightly better CC stats.
It sounds good - it is probably too drastic though.
Might want to do an alternate plan with as few changes to existing BS as possible... Zarch AlDain
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:07:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
the tankers need to get a real overhaul to adress the tanking with lasers problems though.
What I was thinking of was something along the lines of: +5% resistances and +10% capacitor capacity.
will have the same problem as our other tankers, crappy damage and ok tank with lasers or crappy damage and a godly tank with projectiles.
without a real bonus (no cap use reduction does not count) to lasers there is really not much reason to fit them (especially on a tanker). to adress this without changing lasers i would suggest to turn all our tankers into sth like this:
tier 3 bs (scale down for proph and maller..punisher needs something else due to too few slots on frigs) 8/4/7 8 turrets/6 launchers 75 m3 dronespace
5% armor resists 5% laser damage OR 10% laser optimal
real good natural cap+recharge loads of armor, weak shields (really weaker than armor not just slightly less)
this would give a reason to fit lasers in gank- or snipe-mode while still providing a way to tank without using projectiles.
Originally by: Ithildin
Here's a draft/suggestion: High: 7 (5 turrets, 4 launchers) Mid: 5 Low: 6 CPU: 600 Powergrid: 12,000 Drone bay: 300m¦ +10% drone damage and hit points, +5% tracking disruptor efficiency
for a tier 1 arbi-bs: - arbi has even distribution of slows so with 18 total that would be 6-6-6...however: - an amarrian bs should have at least 7 lowslots (imho) - no more than 5 medslots - so maybe 6/5/7 or 5/5/8 - mixed hardpoints like the arbi - 5% td effectiveness changed into 20% td optimal to actually give it different targets than the arbi has and let it reach long range bs. the effect would be less powerful but usable on different targets. the actual range bonus could maybe be a bit lower number with the reduced sniping ranges in kali. 20% is the ewar range bonus of caldari ships and td and ecm range is somewhat similar so you could reach long range ships with this.
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Razin
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:45:00 -
[477]
Edited by: Razin on 08/11/2006 00:45:47
Originally by: Ithildin Soooo... is this (below) something what all the different camps (devs excluded) want?
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
Caldari. As is. Seriously, let's ignore the missile-humpers since they've got their fallos launcher BShip already
Gallente. ti1 - Damp. Dominix hull, Celestis design (switch lows and mids, drone bonus to damp, and drone bay reduced to around 125m¦) ti2 - Drone. Mega hull, +300m¦ drone and drone bonus instead of tracking bonus ti3 - Blast. Hyperion hull, Hyperion design, but Megathron bonuses
Minmatar. ti1 - 'bond. Typhoon hull, but faster. Everyone's favourite bastard. ti2 - AC. Tempest hull, got an idea for this, I do. Read below. ti3 - Arty. Maelstrom hull, although with a better more arty-beneficial bonus such as shield hit points or (heaven forbid) arty optimal.
Tempest: Well, if it's going to be a competative AC boat, especially if the "Megathron" gets another turret, it'll need something extra to what it's got today. Another turret hardpoint? It's not like it can cram another 1400mm in there, to be honest, so ACs is all it's going to really benefit, right?
Now, don't get too caught up with all those letters, just read the first word on each tier to get the "feel"
In your list I would change the Hype tracking bonus to it's current rep bonus and increase all large blasters tracking by 25%. ... |
CAREBEARGOD
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Posted - 2006.11.08 05:10:00 -
[478]
Edited by: CAREBEARGOD on 08/11/2006 05:16:13
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Valadeya uthanaras
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Posted - 2006.11.08 05:16:00 -
[479]
Well i am just back from sisi.....
and like all amarr pilot, we see really big issues comming....
WE already have big issues with cap while our dmg are around the same range than other races
WE can't fit turrets on our currents bs on tq(mega size) on geddon, (tach) on apoc without using pg boost mod....waisting our low .....low that we could use for cap mod.......
WE even with goods skills, run out of cap all the time(fleet op/ tanked ship) and with the new overhaul upgrade it will be worse
YOU need to lower cap use of laser asap DOT AND also need to lower PG use of laser DOT
ABADON IN SISI dont deserve even to be look at atm.....they are bad.......they need definate way....do you want us to tank with it or gank with it?
QUIT not looking at all the amarr pilot who keep saying that their laser need to be looked at.
IF YOU want to have your amarrian pilots to quit because their caracter with good skills are too much underpower in term of weaponry........PPL USING ARTY ON APOC.....NO IDEA WHY
NO amarr wont get overpowered if you change cap and pg use on laser.....it will give them a chance to be in line with the other race
IF you continue to disregard all post your amarr pilot give, why do you keep the race? every single amarr pilot would agree that they have cap issue while using their ship
NO dont hide in the sand saying...they dont use cap injecter or such.
AND plz...i beg the GM, do something......minmatarr needed dmg boost cause of the new release , i agree AMARR need something to solve both the CAP AND the PG issues on their guns
regards. Hope you wont lose players before solving the thing. |
Sherpondeldey
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:39:00 -
[480]
rokh with 4xsiege launchers and 4xheavey NOS is uber it has 75 - 80 - 79 - 70 resists or something like that. i'll correct it when i'll be at test sever again.
theres is no battleship in existance capabale of breaking its tank. CCP have u ever tried to THINK before introducing such a monster ship. lvl5 abaddon with t2 beams is doing to little damage to lvl3 rokh with lvl2 torpedoes. Every noob will fly rokh... and u can't kill him even having much more skillpoints.
And again it is the best blastership i've ever seen. Please change it's bonus to 10% optimal to RAILS only.
ps: i want a new feature! transfere my projectile skills to hybrids. Maelstrom is the 2d worst battleship after typhoon. rokh with its current bonuses is definetely uber comparing to 3 other BSs
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Alpdruck
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:42:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Ithildin
Amarr. ti1 - Drone. Apoc hull, arbitrator design ti2 - Gank. Armageddon hull, Armageddon design ti3 - Tank. Abaddon hull, Apoc/Abaddon fusion
Caldari. As is. Seriously, let's ignore the missile-humpers since they've got their fallos launcher BShip already
Gallente. ti1 - Damp. Dominix hull, Celestis design (switch lows and mids, drone bonus to damp, and drone bay reduced to around 125m¦) ti2 - Drone. Mega hull, +300m¦ drone and drone bonus instead of tracking bonus ti3 - Blast. Hyperion hull, Hyperion design, but Megathron bonuses
Minmatar. ti1 - 'bond. Typhoon hull, but faster. Everyone's favourite bastard. ti2 - AC. Tempest hull, got an idea for this, I do. Read below. ti3 - Arty. Maelstrom hull, although with a better more arty-beneficial bonus such as shield hit points or (heaven forbid) arty optimal.
This is a pretty good list. Tier3 BS as they are now on SiSi look uninspired and have somewhat identical roles as existing BS, except for the Rokh, which is a pretty good ship. The rest is not really needed by the other races.
I am sure that most people would not mind a switching of hulls, if they get more options with their ships. I would not mind if the existing ships get changed.
I think that ccp should do a mkII for BS, too. They should re-evaluate racial design. There are enough different fighting and EWAR styles around to give each race two core concepts (primary weapon + primary method of tanking) and at least two secondary concepts (secondary weapon + EWAR), probably more (tertiary weapon, secondary method of tanking). There are enough things that can be added, like a focus on capacitor, bonus to NOS, bonus to propulsion jamming.
Right now, some races simply have more choices than others. That means longer skill training, but also a wider range of options.
Unfortunately, I believe that ccp is busy with all the other stuff they decided to add with kali. There are many changes that will be done.
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Alpdruck
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:51:00 -
[482]
Oh, and with the HP increase, the Abbadon in its current incarnation is about useless. You will only ever use one of the two boni, since you cannot hope to break a tank with your lasers before you suck yourself dry, if you sport a PvP setup that does more than simply regenerate your cap (propulsion jamming and tanking for example). That means tanking the thing, which it does well, and relying on low damage and probably NOS.
Cap is life. With the added HP this is more true than ever. I cannot understand how anyone fails to see this and designs a ship like that.
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Bankboy
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:51:00 -
[483]
I think the idea being longer battles with more Hp an such you have to add in more cap for all ships. By not doing so your killing amarr ships. An by not doin it to all ships it won't be fair. Also It's also making T2 ammo weaker makes no since. It's like you guys are changing the game so you don't have fun unless you in a fleet battle. I mean runnng out of cap in solo battles suck. Though I use cap boosters. With the current changes all ships must have one cap booster or they will surely die. It shouldn'tbe like that. Back to the main subject Of T3 BS's. Hands down the amarr ship needs a bonus to cap of some type. I wish you guys would see how much more all this needs to be thought out. You're not even coming close to balance & Fun. With an increase to HP you need an increase to cap around the board. Also a slight increase to damage. More so for T2. I mean how log does it take to use t2. It should be worth it. Don't change things becuase a few noobs are like oh no I'm geting killed so fast becuase they are new. Then they need to get with there friends an jump that guy plain an simple. Well any way I'm drifting far of the main topic of more Cap.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:06:00 -
[484]
Abaddon is not bad in real-life fleet battle. One additional med slot(because of lock distance, one sensor booster less) Two additional low slots(no need in one fitting module, no need in one EANM due to better resistances, yes?) And pluses 8 tach t2 and ROF bonus giving substantionally higher damage. For current fleet it may be just fantastic ship. May be, because it to be tested in real-time encounters(by BoB, for example), not on Sisi.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:13:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Zixxa Abaddon is not bad in real-life fleet battle. One additional med slot(because of lock distance, one sensor booster less) Two additional low slots(no need in one fitting module, no need in one EANM due to better resistances, yes?) And pluses 8 tach t2 and ROF bonus giving substantionally higher damage. For current fleet it may be just fantastic ship. May be, because it to be tested in real-time encounters(by BoB, for example), not on Sisi.
And this has been tested on SISI and that configuration will run out of cap and injector charges within 2 minutes. With the 50% HP increase, even in fleet battles this ship is going to be hurting. A geddon with the same damage and better cap sustainability will out perfrom the Abaddon over time in a fleet battle.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:33:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Zixxa Abaddon is not bad in real-life fleet battle. One additional med slot(because of lock distance, one sensor booster less) Two additional low slots(no need in one fitting module, no need in one EANM due to better resistances, yes?) And pluses 8 tach t2 and ROF bonus giving substantionally higher damage. For current fleet it may be just fantastic ship. May be, because it to be tested in real-time encounters(by BoB, for example), not on Sisi.
And this has been tested on SISI and that configuration will run out of cap and injector charges within 2 minutes. With the 50% HP increase, even in fleet battles this ship is going to be hurting. A geddon with the same damage and better cap sustainability will out perfrom the Abaddon over time in a fleet battle.
Possibly. Could you show me setups, please? I am interesting in this. Geddon have to be out of cap in 4 minutes(if Abaddon in 2 minutes). And I do not believe in this because of the Abaddon is easier to fit.
Also after 2 minutes of regular fleet battle enemy will loose around 12 BS. Isn't
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Grinkur
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:33:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Sherpondeldey rokh with 4xsiege launchers and 4xheavey NOS is uber it has 75 - 80 - 79 - 70 resists or something like that. i'll correct it when i'll be at test sever again.
theres is no battleship in existance capabale of breaking its tank. CCP have u ever tried to THINK before introducing such a monster ship. lvl5 abaddon with t2 beams is doing to little damage to lvl3 rokh with lvl2 torpedoes. Every noob will fly rokh... and u can't kill him even having much more skillpoints.
And again it is the best blastership i've ever seen. Please change it's bonus to 10% optimal to RAILS only.
ps: i want a new feature! transfere my projectile skills to hybrids. Maelstrom is the 2d worst battleship after typhoon. rokh with its current bonuses is definetely uber comparing to 3 other BSs
Could be balanced by:
-Removing 2 or 3 launcher harpoints -Changing the shield resistance bonus to a tracking bonus
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Etherios
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:37:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Zixxa Abaddon is not bad in real-life fleet battle. One additional med slot(because of lock distance, one sensor booster less) Two additional low slots(no need in one fitting module, no need in one EANM due to better resistances, yes?) And pluses 8 tach t2 and ROF bonus giving substantionally higher damage. For current fleet it may be just fantastic ship. May be, because it to be tested in real-time encounters(by BoB, for example), not on Sisi.
And this has been tested on SISI and that configuration will run out of cap and injector charges within 2 minutes. With the 50% HP increase, even in fleet battles this ship is going to be hurting. A geddon with the same damage and better cap sustainability will out perfrom the Abaddon over time in a fleet battle.
Possibly. Could you show me setups, please? I am interesting in this. Geddon have to be out of cap in 4 minutes(if Abaddon in 2 minutes). And I do not believe in this because of the Abaddon is easier to fit.
Also after 2 minutes of regular fleet battle enemy will loose around 12 BS. Isn't
8 Tach II / 2 Sensor Boosters II + 2 Tracking II / 3 HS II + RCU II + PDU II + 1600mm + Cap Relay
154k Optimal 5.51 RoF 10.7x Damage Mode and almost 20k (with Aurora Crystals)
All these with Maxed skills and no Imps .... its cap will die Very fast... but it will have enuf to attack say 5-6 bses 2 times each so thats like 10-12 volleys... and if u calculate the lag and locking time etc u might get some more...
BUT why have a ship that is worthy ONLY in fleet ops and ONLY for few seconds? Better use the Arma with Damage rigs...
True sight isn't given to all that look for it.
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Alpdruck
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:23:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Zixxa
For current fleet it may be just fantastic ship. May be, because it to be tested in real-time encounters(by BoB, for example), not on Sisi.
Yeah, great. We can forgoe testing on the "TEST" server for every item now, because we can still test it on Tranq. Great idea.
And a fleet ship is exactly what amarr need. Because they do not have a single fleet ship so far.
Most fleet engagement are, contrary to popular belief, not done in 2 minutes. Sustainable fire is still a necessity.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:28:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Etherios
8 Tach II / 2 Sensor Boosters II + 2 Tracking II / 3 HS II + RCU II + PDU II + 1600mm + Cap Relay
154k Optimal 5.51 RoF 10.7x Damage Mode and almost 20k (with Aurora Crystals)
All these with Maxed skills and no Imps .... its cap will die Very fast... but it will have enuf to attack say 5-6 bses 2 times each so thats like 10-12 volleys... and if u calculate the lag and locking time etc u might get some more...
BUT why have a ship that is worthy ONLY in fleet ops and ONLY for few seconds? Better use the Arma with Damage rigs...
I think Abaddon has to be pure fleet BS by CCP. I like the idea, but I think it must be carefully tested BEFORE Kali hits TQ.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:04:00 -
[491]
Ok guys, this is what the Maelstrom should have been, but with 4 medium slots. Same number of slots as the current Maelstrom, but much, much better. It would be so easy.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:12:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ok guys, this is what the Maelstrom should have been, but with 4 medium slots. Same number of slots as the current Maelstrom, but much, much better. It would be so easy.
You want UBER Tempest? So I want UBER Raven instead of Rokh. At least, these nasty Gallentes will get only Hyperion.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:18:00 -
[493]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/11/2006 18:22:57
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ok guys, this is what the Maelstrom should have been, but with 4 medium slots. Same number of slots as the current Maelstrom, but much, much better. It would be so easy.
You want UBER Tempest? So I want UBER Raven instead of Rokh. At least, these nasty Gallentes will get only Hyperion.
Uber Tempest? I just switch 2 medium slots for 2 low slots. But yeah, maybe its too good. So lets make it just 8/4/6. I would be fine with that, even if it means 1 less slot than it has now. Still much better than the Maelstrom. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:28:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/11/2006 18:22:57
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ok guys, this is what the Maelstrom should have been, but with 4 medium slots. Same number of slots as the current Maelstrom, but much, much better. It would be so easy.
You want UBER Tempest? So I want UBER Raven instead of Rokh. At least, these nasty Gallentes will get only Hyperion.
Uber Tempest? I just switch 2 medium slots for 2 low slots. But yeah, maybe its too good. So lets make it just 8/4/6. I would be fine with that, even if it means 1 less slot than it has now. Still much better than the Maelstrom.
And add 2 gunslots(+33% damage), add some PG(to fit additional 1400) and save bonuses of Tempest. It is uber-Tempest.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:36:00 -
[495]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/11/2006 18:42:48
Originally by: Zixxa
And add 2 gunslots(+33% damage), add some PG(to fit additional 1400) and save bonuses of Tempest. It is uber-Tempest.
Well, I was comparing it to the Maelstrom that already has 8 turrets, but yeah, its a better Tempest too. Its even a better Typhoon. :)
But I just love the slot layout. Exacly what I want. Lets say it has 8/4/7 with a rof bonus and a armor resistance bonus. Can you say SEX...
But yeah, im dreaming. We are stuck with the Maelstrom until 18 months goes by and ccp are the last to realize the ship sucks... in all fairness though, even Tux said he thinks its subpar, so lots of credit to him for admitting it. But I think he might have meant the bonuses, not the ship. Oh well, its a start.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Lady Gadiva
Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:12:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Lady Gadiva on 08/11/2006 21:13:25 Had an idea for a fix for the Hyperion.
Without changing any of its stats simpkly switching it to an 8/3/8 load out would make it far better.
At present the best fit i can come up with is:
8 Ion II's
MWD, Injector, web, scram, tracking comp
2x LARII, 3x EANMII, 1x RCUII ( And thats with AWU5)
8/3/8 would allow:
8 Ion II's
MWD, Injector, scram with 4 webbers in the drone bay
2x LARII, 3xEANMII, 2x MFS and 1x RCUII
I'm still not convinced that would be better than a Megathron but it would at least be better than the current Hyperion.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:27:00 -
[497]
Ask any blaster pilot for the ABSOLUTELY necessary equipment and he'll say: MWD, Web, Scrambler, and injector. That's four mid slots.
I've found that webifier drones can not replace the localized version, but are very good at supplementing the localized version. However, the greatest obstacle here is that if you fit webifier drones you will leave yourself absolutely defenceless against cruisers and smaller (4 webs don't come near comparing to a stasis web module)
Essentially, a webifier drone fitting works on the Megathron, but this is because the Megathron has both the vital extra drone space AND a tracking bonus. Simply, it won't work on the Hyperion.
As for the Hyperion itself, without justly criticising it's concept for a change, the layout is as it should. Mid slots are more important for a close combat ship since it allows for that extra kick in the form of extraneous electronic warfare, as well as the extra modules. Low slots are just used for two things: damage mods and plates.
If we look specifically at the Hyperion and the Hyperion only, there are two changes that will benefit this ship more than anything: a tiny bit more drone bay and a tracking bonus instead of the repair bonus. If it got this, it's cap consumption, required fitting, and lethality would all take a step in the right direction as well as go far towards it's conceptual design. But this would make it a slightly improved (although much fatter, and more limited) Megathron. DOH!
So, let's justly criticise the Hyperion's choice for concept for a bit, shall we? - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:38:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Ithildin Ask any blaster pilot for the ABSOLUTELY necessary equipment and he'll say: MWD, Web, Scrambler, and injector. That's four mid slots.
I never understood why any battleship would need a scrambler or even web. Last I heard ships aren't balanced for 1vs1. A good fleet should always have support in form of frigs and cruisers to tackle. I grant an MWD to be necessary on a blaster ship, but not web+scrambler. EVE is not about battleships only. And balance should even less follow that kind of thinking.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Karash Amerius
Amarr O.E.C
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:40:00 -
[499]
Amarr ships need a lot more capacitor size than other races...this would be a good chance to impliment that. Increase capacitor size over other races by at least 35%...but possibly up to 45%. Note: I think capacitor sizes should be increased throughout the game to compensate for the HP boost.
Suggested Abaddon Bonuses: 5% Large Energy Damage / 10% Vampire Range per level.
Discuss?
Merc Blog |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:49:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin Ask any blaster pilot for the ABSOLUTELY necessary equipment and he'll say: MWD, Web, Scrambler, and injector. That's four mid slots.
I never understood why any battleship would need a scrambler or even web. Last I heard ships aren't balanced for 1vs1. A good fleet should always have support in form of frigs and cruisers to tackle. I grant an MWD to be necessary on a blaster ship, but not web+scrambler. EVE is not about battleships only. And balance should even less follow that kind of thinking.
lol. plz stop talking.
Because I said so...
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:10:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin Ask any blaster pilot for the ABSOLUTELY necessary equipment and he'll say: MWD, Web, Scrambler, and injector. That's four mid slots.
I never understood why any battleship would need a scrambler or even web. Last I heard ships aren't balanced for 1vs1. A good fleet should always have support in form of frigs and cruisers to tackle. I grant an MWD to be necessary on a blaster ship, but not web+scrambler. EVE is not about battleships only. And balance should even less follow that kind of thinking.
Murder One has a point.
But let's get into details: * A blaster ship does not belong in a "fleet". They get killed in fleets. * An MWD is secondary to a scrambler. A webifier is secondary to a scrambler. You *must* have a scrambler (or disruptor). This is law.
You see, tacklers are only good at tackling until the point when they die. Oh, I've saved my cute arse many times because my enemy were silly enough to think that tackling is handled by ships with that role - you just kill everything with a signature radius 250m or smaller, which is actually pretty easy unless you're outnumbered 20 to 1. Then there are the many times when you actually don't have a decent tackler. You just waltz on an enemy ship and get into those accidental 1v1 (believe me, they happen). Or the times when you find yourself chewing on something that's a tiny bit too hard to swallow, but notice "hey! They can't fight at this distance!". Believe me, in that situation what you want is battleships with scramblers. Not interceptors - then you lose. You want sturdy ships with good firepower to hold the enemies down while you pop them one by one. Trust me, these situations happen.
The golden rule of PvP is to keep your gangs golden ratio. You need plenty of firepower, jamming, and tackling. But the golden ratio is to fit as much of all that into as few ships as possible. If you go around in a big gang, using numbers to do everything for you, you do not get any kills. You can not bait anyone. This is called alliance warfare for a reason - they aren't interested in interesting and fun combat, they just want people out of the immediate space around them so they can get on with whatever business they usually do - and alliance warfare is very effective at not getting any action.
Rule one of blasters is: get action. To get action you must cram as much close range roles as you can into a single blaster ship. And THAT, my friend, is why you MUST have tackling AS WELL as a lot of damage on a blaster ship. People run away from you otherwise and then you don't get any action.
The one thing that you absolutely do not need on a blaster ship is a tank. You need to survive longer than the opponent, and that's it. Fit as few armour repairers as possible, and make sure you've got a friggin' tight armour and hull - that's the key. Errr... which is why the Hyperion's misguided. As well... as... you know... trying to be the Megathron's bastard brother. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:37:00 -
[502]
I disagree. A fleet does not necessarily have to be a long range fleet. And I have seen plenty of enemies being tackled by ships smaller than battleships. A scrambler is not a must have on a battleship.
Would be interesting to hear a dev opinion on this.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:54:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Forsch I disagree. A fleet does not necessarily have to be a long range fleet. And I have seen plenty of enemies being tackled by ships smaller than battleships. A scrambler is not a must have on a battleship.
Would be interesting to hear a dev opinion on this.
It is your right to disagree, but it doesn't change the cold truth. It's not about opinion, in the end. I could do the metaphor about the medieval opinion that the world was flat.
It is workable to do it your way, but it is more efficient to do it my way. Trust me, The Corporation specialize in close combat, and we have not met our match. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
Aphotic Raven
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:05:00 -
[504]
Im seeing a lot of amarr *****ing about cap... nothing new there... something has to balance the fact that your race can actually hurt the caldari, and CCP doesnt seem to like anything that does that...
The new amarr battleship... i was under the impression that it was a drone boat(perhaps im crazy) but i havent seen any definite stats, i am a domi pilot and caps always a problem (unless you passive shield tank) so if the amarr ship is a drone boat then perhaps a standard nos tank would be sufficient to keep your guns going? you dont need heavy guns, mediums would do to get you the extra DPS you need to take down pretty much anything on top of your drones. Without ecm you will be feeling the pain but that might all work out in the end.
Can i please get a link to a page with the exact and correct current stats/descriptions of these ships????
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MiIes Naismith
Amarr Guru Clan
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:08:00 -
[505]
hes right , as a 4 year blaster only pilot i can swear by mwd scram and web and injector. without them all my targets either run away, out run me, or i run out of cap against another bs.
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Aphotic Raven
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:13:00 -
[506]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin Ask any blaster pilot for the ABSOLUTELY necessary equipment and he'll say: MWD, Web, Scrambler, and injector. That's four mid slots.
I never understood why any battleship would need a scrambler or even web. Last I heard ships aren't balanced for 1vs1. A good fleet should always have support in form of frigs and cruisers to tackle. I grant an MWD to be necessary on a blaster ship, but not web+scrambler. EVE is not about battleships only. And balance should even less follow that kind of thinking.
lol. plz stop talking.
Seconded. Some of us dont fight in 20 man gank packs, there are a rare few who Actually Solo PVP!!! I know this may be an alien concept to you. But i assure you it does happen. Sometimes.
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Aphotic Raven
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:15:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Karash Amerius Amarr ships need a lot more capacitor size than other races...this would be a good chance to impliment that. Increase capacitor size over other races by at least 35%...but possibly up to 45%. Note: I think capacitor sizes should be increased throughout the game to compensate for the HP boost.
Suggested Abaddon Bonuses: 5% Large Energy Damage / 10% Vampire Range per level.
Discuss?
Do that and i'll train amarr BS, put blasters/drones on it, and it will be the best BS in the game by far, also with that much cap your regen will go up, and along with it the ammount of time you can keep your tank going.. hell put arty on it and see that tank you can get going then! Great idea, i support i-win buttons for amarr.
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haq aan
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:14:00 -
[508]
Its 3:40 am here,..and i spend almost 3 hours readind this thread and its related links. So please, for the sake of god, do not try to make Maelstorm a better ship then it is now, by switching its bonus to Shield HP.! That ll definitely wont make it balanced,..but make the problem completely out of track.
A lot of solutions posted in this forum , as the ships current role (which is a fleet Alpha dealer,with better survive abilities(!)) accepted and agreed by everyone.
But the main problem of Maelstorm is its Role. Minmatar already have a fleet ship (Tempest),..and already have a split weapon platform (Phoon = versality (?)). So there s no reasonable explanation for giving a better fleet BS. I remember the time when -sgeir first introduced the concepts of all tier 3 BS 's.And the ships were designed assuming their probable roles.
Caldari = Long range Rail. Gallente = Fast Blaster boat. Amarr = Drone Boat. Minmatar = Fast AC boat with EW.
I am not sure what u guyz seing when u looking theese ships models but Maelstorm is definitely looks like a fast AC boat. If its gonna be a **** slow Fleet tanker and Alpha striker,..then make its model again. (I know we cant decide ships roles by just looking their models,..But sometimes answer may already be lying there)
So I totally agree theese suggestions :
-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)
-ABADDON : Make it a Drone boat as it meant to be.
-MAELSTORM : Reduce its mass. Increase Velocity to 150 or 160m/s 8-5-6 layout %5 ROF and %5 shield resist (or %7.5 ar. rep)
-TEMPEST : Switch layout to 8-6-5 Add 1 more turret HP (to keep up with overall Hitpoint boost and other fleet BS 's)
Best Regards,
Haq aan Alektorophobia PS: Do not boost Minmatar..Balance it.
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Ryo Jang
Central Defiance Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:50:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ryo Jang
i dont particularly care about it being just another laser bs. thats what they are for! if you want EW, thats what your cruiser wingmates are for! and that still doesnt stop you from fitting any form of EW and still using it fairly effectively, for instance, i quite regularly use a target painter on my geddon.
so you think our tier 3 bs should really just be a copy of the geddon/apoc with slightly better stats then?
thats exactly what im saying. we do damage. we tank. thats what we do. want ew? go gallente or caldari. and slightly better stats? it has 12,000 armor! for christs sake.
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Ratzap
Gallente Old Farts
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:52:00 -
[510]
I just took a Rokh for a spin on an L4. Tank is fabulous, I mean 15.5k shield at 84% em/therm is not shabby. DPS and tracking isn't great but 8 x 425 protos fits with PG to spare, AM gives an optimal of 50km with BS 4.
The lag on SISI is making it difficult to test much at any reasonable speed but for what it was intended as, the Rokh is better than it needs to be. No comprimise necessary to fit a full rack of 425s + a tank. I used:
8 x 425 proto amp, 4 x t2 hardner, c-5 XL boost 4 x PDS2, best DC
Enough PG left that I could probably drop 2 PDS for a track enhancer and mag stab but I'm stuck trying to jump atm so I can't say yet ;)
Ratzap
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:44:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Ryo Jang
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
so you think our tier 3 bs should really just be a copy of the geddon/apoc with slightly better stats then?
thats exactly what im saying. we do damage. we tank. thats what we do. want ew? go gallente or caldari. and slightly better stats? it has 12,000 armor! for christs sake.
a sound theory. i have a few questions though:
- what if our predictable damage wasnt all that superior compared to the other races to make up for the lack of versatility?? - what if our tanks werent all that much better than those of other races to make up for the lack of versatility? - what if not being completely predictable is slightly better for pvp compared to increased stats?
- what if i dont want to use gallente or caldari ew but amarrian ew instead? - if a higher tier should result in slightly better stats why not turn the rokh into a raven with more shield then? - even better why dont we take 1 ship in each class and race and change all the others to become copies with different stats according to their tier? for crusiers we could have 4 mallers with steadily increasig armor hitpoints for example. the caldari get 4 caracals only the get more shield instead of armor.
also: how much armor do the geddon and apoc have on the testserver?
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Razor Jaxx
Minus Ten
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:40:00 -
[512]
Well, well, back in EvE after a bit of an extended hiatus to get a sneak peek at Kali features & ships, I finally got to fly a Maelstrom around for a test drive, and honestly (and I'm a strong supporter of Minnie ship improvement) I don't know why people are dissing that ship.
The native shield boosting bonus, combined with proper mods, implants and what not, and with the global HP boost, turn the Maelstrom into a formidable AC platform. Granted, it's a bit slow and could use an extra medslot for a scram/disrupt (unless you remove the AB/MWD), but its tanking ability is simply amazing, and will please all BS skirmish pilots out there.
Yes, you'll need a cap injector - just as every other close range BS out there - which shorten its battle presence, and yes, you'll need decent implants/boosters and/or faction mods to turn it into the real beast it can be, but nonetheless, the Maelstrom is a monster which I, for one, am looking forward to fly, even in its present state.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.09 04:11:00 -
[513]
Originally by: Razor Jaxx Well, well, back in EvE after a bit of an extended hiatus to get a sneak peek at Kali features & ships, I finally got to fly a Maelstrom around for a test drive, and honestly (and I'm a strong supporter of Minnie ship improvement) I don't know why people are dissing that ship.
The native shield boosting bonus, combined with proper mods, implants and what not, and with the global HP boost, turn the Maelstrom into a formidable AC platform. Granted, it's a bit slow and could use an extra medslot for a scram/disrupt (unless you remove the AB/MWD), but its tanking ability is simply amazing, and will please all BS skirmish pilots out there.
Yes, you'll need a cap injector - just as every other close range BS out there - which shorten its battle presence, and yes, you'll need decent implants/boosters and/or faction mods to turn it into the real beast it can be, but nonetheless, the Maelstrom is a monster which I, for one, am looking forward to fly, even in its present state.
It's not a pants bonus for an AC-boat, although it misses a 7th medslot to be truly great in that department. The problem is that Tux wanted (still wants?) it to be a shield-tanking artillery boat. And for that an active bonus like the shield boost bonus isn't all that great. A passive bonus like HP or reistances are much better for a shield tanking artillery boat as it can both be actively tanked or just passively tanked.
The much-vaunted minmatar flexibility is better supported with a HP/resistance bonus as well. Plus I'd rather like a shield-tanked artillery-beast of a ship compared to an AC-boat :p.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.09 06:40:00 -
[514]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:40:41
Originally by: Aphotic Raven
Can i please get a link to a page with the exact and correct current stats/descriptions of these ships????
This is still accurate afaik, except for the Myrmidon which now has 6 lows, 6 turrets, 6 highs.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.09 06:50:00 -
[515]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:53:42
Ever noticed how NOBODY wants a shield tanked artillery boat btw? I have no idea why ccp decided to create such a thing just without anyone actually expressing the need for one.
I seriously cant get over a shield boost bonus and a rof bonus on a slow artillery ship for medium range with gimped alpha strike. Its... just silly tbh.
* Good passive recharge rate - cool, lets add an active shield tanking bonus to make it "versatile"! * Looks speedy - cool, lets make it pretty slow to surprise the enemy! * Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets give it rof bonus like a autocannons ship! * Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets make sure its alpha strike is not better than the apoc with artillery! * Designed as a artillery boat - 50% more hp to all ships, 5% more dmg to artillery (maybe). Sounds pretty good, guys!
... Ok, I think ive ranted enough. But DO something ffs. It didnt take long to try and fix the Myrmidon, so lets get started on this boat too, shall we?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.09 07:14:00 -
[516]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 09/11/2006 07:17:08
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:53:42
Ever noticed how NOBODY wants a shield tanked artillery boat btw? I have no idea why ccp decided to create such a thing just without anyone actually expressing the need for one.
i want it
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I seriously cant get over a shield boost bonus and a rof bonus on a slow artillery ship for medium range with gimped alpha strike. Its... just silly tbh.
shield boost bonus is bad, i think everyone, Tux included agree with that... if it should be a shield tank arty it should have +shield hp or +res... as +res is alredy "picked" by rokh we are left with shield hp
this ship will never be a good arty platform with shield boost bonus, but it doesn't mean it can't never be a good arty platform with another bonus.
Originally by: Jim McGregor
* Good passive recharge rate - cool, lets add an active shield tanking bonus to make it "versatile"!
eheh i agree
Originally by: Jim McGregor
* Looks speedy - cool, lets make it pretty slow to surprise the enemy!
even if for an arty platform speed is not that important
Originally by: Jim McGregor
* Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets give it rof bonus like a autocannons ship! * Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets make sure its alpha strike is not better than the apoc with artillery!
in this i totally disagree... alpha is now useless, the dps bonus will make not alpha viable and will gimp even more its dps... with damage instead of rof the ship will do more dps and have more range mounting rails
ROF bonus is needed to proj because it add around 13% more dps than a similar +damage bonus helping to balance the poor dps of proj (expecially now that alpha is no more viable)
Originally by: Jim McGregor
* Designed as a artillery boat - 50% more hp to all ships, 5% more dmg to artillery (maybe). Sounds pretty good, guys!
... Ok, I think ive ranted enough. But DO something ffs. It didnt take long to try and fix the Myrmidon, so lets get started on this boat too, shall we?
as said in other posts imo the problem of mael are 2... the bad shield bonus (ship problem) and the total crapness of arty (weapon problem)
>graph1<
>graph 2<
this is the actual arty situation... as long as arty will not be able to compete against rails there will be no mean to make a good arty bs (at least comparable to rokh)...
fix this situation (giving to arty +20-25% dps or +40-50% optimal range boost) and switch shield boost to shield hp and the mael will become a very effective arty platform
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skillbuyer
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Posted - 2006.11.09 08:34:00 -
[517]
Originally by: haq aan
-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)
You really want to fit a MWD on the slowest, heaviest, biggest signature ship around? Better pick your fights carefully then...
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Ryo Jang
Central Defiance Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.09 08:49:00 -
[518]
Edited by: Ryo Jang on 09/11/2006 08:52:12 Edited by: Ryo Jang on 09/11/2006 08:49:59
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if our predictable damage wasnt all that superior compared to the other races to make up for the lack of versatility??
well imo, it should be, to make up for it
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if our tanks werent all that much better than those of other races to make up for the lack of versatility?
see above, ive always thought caldari should have stronger resists on shields and lower on armor, vice versa for amarr. gallente and minmatar get the middle ground here. of course, both of these arguments are for another thread.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if not being completely predictable is slightly better for pvp compared to increased stats?
of course. but youre talking about bonuses here, and they just dont matter when it comes to fitting your ship how YOU want it. sure, if you have weapons bonuses, then thats a good thing to invest in. but just because you dont have 5% more ecm strength per level, doesnt mean you cant have an ecm. you can do anything you like on any ship.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if i dont want to use gallente or caldari ew but amarrian ew instead?
then use them. noones telling you not to.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - if a higher tier should result in slightly better stats why not turn the rokh into a raven with more shield then?
caldari are innovators, amarr are traditional. its in the storyline.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - even better why dont we take 1 ship in each class and race and change all the others to become copies with different stats according to their tier? for crusiers we could have 4 mallers with steadily increasig armor hitpoints for example. the caldari get 4 caracals only they get more shield instead of armor.
now youre just being silly.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne also: how much armor do the geddon and apoc have on the testserver?
armageddon: 7970 apocalypse: 9000
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:22:00 -
[519]
Originally by: Ryo Jang
thats exactly what im saying. we do damage. we tank. thats what we do. want ew? go gallente or caldari. and slightly better stats? it has 12,000 armor! for christs sake.
Then it would be good if we at least could do damage and/or tank. Not to say that we actually can not do more damage or tank better then other races. Why can races that are not so specialized outdamage and/or outtank the Amarr. In it's current state the Amarr ships have all the drawbacks of specialisation without the benefits of it. Flexibility has to come at a cost!
But I think this discussion does not belong to the original Topic so to come back on Topic.
The Abaddon can neither do damage or tank as it simply runs out of cap to fast. Even without the HP increase you would have problems to kill anything with it.
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:50:00 -
[520]
Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 09/11/2006 09:52:05
Originally by: Ryo Jang
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne also: how much armor do the geddon and apoc have on the testserver?
armageddon: 7970 apocalypse: 9000
The Abaddon has 10200 btw...
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Ryo Jang
Central Defiance Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.09 10:00:00 -
[521]
Edited by: Ryo Jang on 09/11/2006 09:59:49 ah, thatll teach me. 12000 is with skills of course
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.09 10:19:00 -
[522]
Originally by: haq aan
-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)
Uh?
1-Slow, big brick is what you can use to describe the Rokh. You aren't fitting a MWD to this thing for combat purposes. 2-No damage bonus, you're going to be doing comparatively poor damage. 3-No tracking bonus, you're gonna have trouble hitting some things. 4-To fix 2 and 3 you need to sacrifice your your tank by replacing shield mods with and MWD, scramble and web. And your PDU's with magstabs.
Trust me, sure, you can mount blasters to the Rokh, but it doesn't mean it'll be very good at it. And with the Raven being a far, far better close range platform than the Rokh, why would anyone in their right minds do this?
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:41:00 -
[523]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 11:41:50
Originally by: Ryo Jang
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if our predictable damage wasnt all that superior compared to the other races to make up for the lack of versatility??
well imo, it should be, to make up for it
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if our tanks werent all that much better than those of other races to make up for the lack of versatility?
see above ...
so you're basicly agreeing that amarrians dont get the advantages with lasers and armor tanks they should have to make up for their lack of versatility.
and yet you still seem to think that adding yet another ship doing exactly the same things slightly better is a good idea?
Originally by: Ryo Jang
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - what if not being completely predictable is slightly better for pvp compared to increased stats?
of course. but youre talking about bonuses here, and they just dont matter when it comes to fitting your ship how YOU want it. sure, if you have weapons bonuses, then thats a good thing to invest in.
sure you can try and fit an ecm-abaddon or a full-nos apoc. this is sure to work well maybe once or twice if at all. just in the same way as you may be able to kill a greedy pirate with a correctly fitted bestower once in a while. for all other times your stuck with a ship that is very easy to predict and counter. actually not 1 but 3 ships that are very easy to predict and counter.
also...gimping your damage output to make your ships work in the first place doesnt seem like a good idea really. that some of our ships do actually work better with minmatar weapons should be some kind of a hint that things are not good the way they are.
Originally by: Ryo Jang
but just because you dont have 5% more ecm strength per level, doesnt mean you cant have an ecm. you can do anything you like on any ship.
not really true. there simply is no way to reach long range targets with amarrian ewar. for this you need a range bonus. it simply wont work without one and theres no ship in the game that has one.
also note: ecm is not the amarrian ew type. and just sticking an ecm mod on a ship not designed for them will not have the desired effect with kali anyway.
Originally by: Ryo Jang
caldari are innovators, amarr are traditional. its in the storyline.
yes yes i'm quiet aware of the backstory. unfortunately amarrian ship in the game only have the disadvantages described there but dont get to enjoy the devastating lasers and near unbreakable armor they should have.
if you really want to have it this way then amarrians should get really powerful lasers and the best armortanks around (not in the same ship propably). instead we seem to specialize in sub-standard weapons and mediocre tanks.
if things would work according to the storyline the maller or omen would be our most powerful t1 crusiers. go ahead and ask your new alliance which not so typical amarrian crusier it is instead.
Originally by: Ryo Jang
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne - even better why dont we take 1 ship in each class and race and change all the others to become copies with different stats according to their tier?...
now youre just being silly.
at least on the bs level we have already achieved this on the testserver.
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Razor Jaxx
Minus Ten
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:16:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Razor Jaxx stuff
It's not a pants bonus for an AC-boat, although it misses a 7th medslot to be truly great in that department. The problem is that Tux wanted (still wants?) it to be a shield-tanking artillery boat. And for that an active bonus like the shield boost bonus isn't all that great. A passive bonus like HP or reistances are much better for a shield tanking artillery boat as it can both be actively tanked or just passively tanked.
The much-vaunted minmatar flexibility is better supported with a HP/resistance bonus as well. Plus I'd rather like a shield-tanked artillery-beast of a ship compared to an AC-boat :p.
Ah, I had no idea that this ship was designed to be an artillery platform - but I'm sure this will not be the first instance where a ship finds its practical niche in an area its creators never planned.
To me, the Tempest, with its double damage bonus (RoF & damage), will remain the be all, end all of artillery ships, and a mainstay of fleet action. One can wonder how the HP boost will neutralize its alpha strike, though, and perhaps a 7th turret hardpoint would be a nice compensation, one that would bring it inline with its fleet competitors, the Megathron (7 rails), the Apoc (8 lasers) and now, the Rokh (8 rails).
The Maelstrom, along with the Hyperion (pure blaster boat), the old-school Blasterthron, the plated pulse Armageddon, and the torpedo Raven (with rage damage improvement), finds its niche in the skirmish BS category. In that configuration, the shield-boost bonus, 8 turret hardpoints and 6 medslots will do wonders, although, I repeat myself, it does lack a bit of speed & agility.
As for the choice of shield boost bonus, I reckon it keeps the ship inline with recent trends - armor res for Amarr, armor rep boost for Gallente, shield res for Caldari, shield boost for Minnie.
As for the Amarr, they seem to hold the sh..ort end of the stick atm. Their tier 3 BS doesn't add a new dimension to their choice of playing styles (another armor-tanking, 8-turret ship), and the HP boost means longer fights, which in turn means cap issues for cap intensive weapons. As such, the Apoc with its cap bonus probably has the upper-hand over the Abbadon, especially since the latter has a RoF bonus (thus cap drains faster, heh).
So, in short, I doubt the Maelstrom will ever be a viable shield-tanking artillery fleet boat, at least not in its current configuration - and yes, I do agree that a passive tank is always a better option in fleet engagements. It is, however, far from being a useless ship, and much better geared for skirmish AC than the autopest.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:42:00 -
[525]
Originally by: skillbuyer
Originally by: haq aan
-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)
You really want to fit a MWD on the slowest, heaviest, biggest signature ship around? Better pick your fights carefully then...
MWD is must on fleet ship. Of course, if we are going to use Rokh in the fleet.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.09 14:06:00 -
[526]
I have been thinking about balance and the Abaddon compared to the Rokh.
Everyone pretty much loves the Rokh, and thinks its just what Caldari need to round out their ships. There are a few nay-sayers, but tbh they are for the most part clueless.
So let's look at the Rokh. Resist bonus. 8 guns. Optimal bonus. Something that Caldari has never had.
So why not make the Abaddon the exact inverse?
Abaddon: Resist bonus. 8 launchers, 1 turret. Velocity bonus to missiles. Something Amarr have never had.
Amarr don't need another fleet/gunship. We have 2. And if the Rokh is good for Caldari, why wouldn't it's inverse be good for Amarr?
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Virizium
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:32:00 -
[527]
Originally by: Nyxus I have been thinking about balance and the Abaddon compared to the Rokh.
Everyone pretty much loves the Rokh, and thinks its just what Caldari need to round out their ships. There are a few nay-sayers, but tbh they are for the most part clueless.
So let's look at the Rokh. Resist bonus. 8 guns. Optimal bonus. Something that Caldari has never had.
So why not make the Abaddon the exact inverse?
Abaddon: Resist bonus. 8 launchers, 1 turret. Velocity bonus to missiles. Something Amarr have never had.
Amarr don't need another fleet/gunship. We have 2. And if the Rokh is good for Caldari, why wouldn't it's inverse be good for Amarr?
Nyxus
You can not compare Caldari ideology with that of Amarrian ideology. The two races are very different. Your argument would be the real world equivalent of comparing apples to oranges. In other words, Amarrians are about laser turrets and drones (for the most part), and the Caldari have always had a multiple personality with respect to turrets or missiles... turrets or missiles... oh my!
The abbadon is fine the way it is. What most people forget is it is suppose to be a tanker OR a ganker, and NOT BOTH!
Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all. I recently tanked 2 hurricanes for 5 minutes before they decided to disengage and try and take out an easier target.
Yes it is hard to fit scramblers and webs on the ship now, because doing so will diminish the cap recharge or the gank / tank ability, but that is in line with the goal ccp has for making fleets more specialised. The days of battleships doing everything are over... we will just have to pick our strats and make sure to have specialised tacklers etc.
Once you realise that these ships must be specialised, you will see many of the issues currently being debated disappear. You may not be happy with this shift in paradigm, but it is where the dev's want to delve (no pun intended).
That is all I have to say about that... ;)
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:52:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Virizium
Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all.
would be interesting to know how many cap rechargers you had fitted to it ...all 4 mid slots? did the hurricans nos you?
you think a bs has to be a sitting duck that can tank for a long time, but is not able to shot back? something is seriously wrong with the abaddon.
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Mastin Dragonfly
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:09:00 -
[529]
Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 09/11/2006 19:12:16
Originally by: Virizium The abbadon is fine the way it is. What most people forget is it is suppose to be a tanker OR a ganker, and NOT BOTH!
Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all. I recently tanked 2 hurricanes for 5 minutes before they decided to disengage and try and take out an easier target.
A battleship that can't kill 2 battlecruisers in 5mins, we got a winner there. Tell me, what's the point of having a great tank when the enemy will just ignore you and kill the rest of your gang first because you are no threat, at all.
Tank or gank is pointless, a glass canon may have it's uses, a tank that can't fire does not.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:14:00 -
[530]
Originally by: FalconHawk
Originally by: Virizium
Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all.
would be interesting to know how many cap rechargers you had fitted to it ...all 4 mid slots? did the hurricans nos you?
you think a bs has to be a sitting duck that can tank for a long time, but is not able to shot back? something is seriously wrong with the abaddon.
Thats the issue really. It can gank for a minute, but can't shoot at all and tank. Unless Viz was using ACs.
And tbh Amarr actually have ships with bonuses to missiles, or a preponderance of missile slots. For us to gain a battleship with missile bonuses isn't a stretch, especially considering that backstory has Amarr + Caldari as allies.
But it's ok for the Caldari to get a ship with *8* turrets and a range bonus, yet it's not ok for Amarr to have the exact same thing in a missile ship? Can you understand why that would not seem a bit biased?
If the Rokh had 6 turrets and 2 launchers I would be more inclined to agree. As it is "whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".
Lets get sauced.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:39:00 -
[531]
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: FalconHawk
Originally by: Virizium
Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all.
would be interesting to know how many cap rechargers you had fitted to it ...all 4 mid slots? did the hurricans nos you?
you think a bs has to be a sitting duck that can tank for a long time, but is not able to shot back? something is seriously wrong with the abaddon.
Thats the issue really. It can gank for a minute, but can't shoot at all and tank. Unless Viz was using ACs.
And tbh Amarr actually have ships with bonuses to missiles, or a preponderance of missile slots. For us to gain a battleship with missile bonuses isn't a stretch, especially considering that backstory has Amarr + Caldari as allies.
But it's ok for the Caldari to get a ship with *8* turrets and a range bonus, yet it's not ok for Amarr to have the exact same thing in a missile ship? Can you understand why that would not seem a bit biased?
If the Rokh had 6 turrets and 2 launchers I would be more inclined to agree. As it is "whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".
Lets get sauced.
Nyxus
Every time CCP gives the Amarr a missile ship (read: Sacrilege) they whined it up so hard about how it was unfair they had to train up missile skills to use it that Tux caved in and turned it into a crappy Zealot clone.
Far as the Rokh goes.. it's going to lose to just about every battleship since the optimal bonus, while probably is going to be wonderful for big sniper fleets that fight on the outer edge of 200km+, otherwise isn't all that great. I have to wonder if the cost of the Rokh is really worth it, when a Tempest or Megathron can probably do the same thing for less. ===================
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:50:00 -
[532]
Originally by: Captain RaynorEvery time CCP gives the Amarr a missile ship (read: Sacrilege) they whined it up so hard about how it was unfair they had to train up missile skills to use it that Tux caved in and turned it into a crappy Zealot clone.
Far as the Rokh goes.. it's going to lose to just about every battleship since the optimal bonus, while probably is going to be wonderful for big sniper fleets that fight on the outer edge of 200km+, otherwise isn't all that great. I have to wonder if the cost of the Rokh is really worth it, when a Tempest or Megathron can probably do the same thing for less.[/quote
isn't that great? it saves 2 if not 3 modules over other ships... some posts i put in a comparsion graph between rokh and mael/tempest... i also assure you that the situation of abaddon or mega are more or less the same...
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:58:00 -
[533]
Originally by: Virizium
The abbadon is fine the way it is. What most people forget is it is suppose to be a tanker OR a ganker, and NOT BOTH!
Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all. I recently tanked 2 hurricanes for 5 minutes before they decided to disengage and try and take out an easier target.
how is adding cap rechargers, cpr's or cap rigs going to change this ship from an unneeded and poorly designed fleet bs into the new role it should be filling?
also: you didnt manage to take out at least one of those 2 battlecrusiers during 5 minutes? in fact you didnt even manage to hold them in place. what exactly was the fuction this setup was suppsoed to perform? other than sit there maybe?
in addition to this: please feel free to provide an abaddon setup using lasers that tanks as good as an abaddon setup with projectiles on it. you say that amarrians cant have a missile boats because missiles are not part of our racial identity. are projectiles part of it?
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 21:07:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Every time CCP gives the Amarr a missile ship (read: Sacrilege) they whined it up so hard about how it was unfair they had to train up missile skills to use it that Tux caved in and turned it into a crappy Zealot clone.
or maybe the old sacrilege just wasnt all that good to begin with.
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Ryo Jang
Central Defiance Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.09 21:31:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne so you're basicly agreeing that amarrians dont get the advantages with lasers and armor tanks they should have to make up for their lack of versatility.
and yet you still seem to think that adding yet another ship doing exactly the same things slightly better is a good idea?
im saying they are underpowered both in tank and firepower for what they were designed to do, yes. and i think if its fixed, another gunship which is more powerful, but more expensive, will be a great addition.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne sure you can try and fit an ecm-abaddon or a full-nos apoc. this is sure to work well maybe once or twice if at all. just in the same way as you may be able to kill a greedy pirate with a correctly fitted bestower once in a while. for all other times your stuck with a ship that is very easy to predict and counter. actually not 1 but 3 ships that are very easy to predict and counter.
also...gimping your damage output to make your ships work in the first place doesnt seem like a good idea really. that some of our ships do actually work better with minmatar weapons should be some kind of a hint that things are not good the way they are.
i agree. but i do believe brute firepower, if its fixed and implemented, should overcome and predictability. more damage and more cap would be a big step towards normality.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne not really true. there simply is no way to reach long range targets with amarrian ewar. for this you need a range bonus. it simply wont work without one and theres no ship in the game that has one.
also note: ecm is not the amarrian ew type. and just sticking an ecm mod on a ship not designed for them will not have the desired effect with kali anyway.
i used ecm as an example, substitute for whatever you want, tracking disruption included. im not too versed with that particular module much, as im usually fighting ravens anyway and nos domis anyway.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne yes yes i'm quiet aware of the backstory. unfortunately amarrian ship in the game only have the disadvantages described there but dont get to enjoy the devastating lasers and near unbreakable armor they should have.
if you really want to have it this way then amarrians should get really powerful lasers and the best armortanks around (not in the same ship propably). instead we seem to specialize in sub-standard weapons and mediocre tanks.
if things would work according to the storyline the maller or omen would be our most powerful t1 crusiers. go ahead and ask your new alliance which not so typical amarrian crusier it is instead.
i agree, no arguments there. and the omen imo SHOULD be our best cruiser tbh.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne at least on the bs level we have already achieved this on the testserver.
lol, yes i know. for the love of xenu, lets get some better cap recharge and less laser cap usage on that thing.
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Tricit
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.10 01:36:00 -
[536]
Edited by: Tricit on 10/11/2006 01:36:45 How about this?
Abbadon: 50% bonus to Laser Graphic size per level -10% Large Energy Turret Grid need and Capacitor use per level
Hahahahah!
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.10 02:13:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Tricit Edited by: Tricit on 10/11/2006 01:36:45 How about this?
Abbadon: 50% bonus to Laser Graphic size per level -10% Large Energy Turret Grid need and Capacitor use per level
Hahahahah!
Brilliant.
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Necronus
Amarr Monks of War
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:05:00 -
[538]
Originally by: Tricit Edited by: Tricit on 10/11/2006 01:36:45 How about this?
Abbadon: 50% bonus to Laser Graphic size per level -10% Large Energy Turret Grid need and Capacitor use per level
Hahahahah!
Cheers to "devastating laser beams"
Huh? :D
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Capt Harlock
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:28:00 -
[539]
Abbadon I don't know why it can't be a specialized tracking disruptor ship. Does no one see this but me? Could be the amarr version of a scorp. As it stands it does the same as the ships the amarr already has. Would be cool for the minny to get a target painter BS and Gallente sensor dampner BS. Or BC versions. Does anyone at all see any merit in this idea?
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:54:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Capt Harlock Abbadon I don't know why it can't be a specialized tracking disruptor ship. Does no one see this but me? Could be the amarr version of a scorp. As it stands it does the same as the ships the amarr already has. Would be cool for the minny to get a target painter BS and Gallente sensor dampner BS. Or BC versions. Does anyone at all see any merit in this idea?
Sure we do.. tho I would prefer a drone/tracking disruptor ship.. but even if we do .. The thing is, it has kinda been set in stone that all tier 3 BS will have 8 high slots and be rather shooting oriented.
To change that now would mean they would not come out now but prolly in kali 2/3 because of the many tests and balancing issues that would have to be redone..
- All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please |
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Soratah
Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:32:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka
Originally by: Capt Harlock Abbadon I don't know why it can't be a specialized tracking disruptor ship. Does no one see this but me? Could be the amarr version of a scorp. As it stands it does the same as the ships the amarr already has. Would be cool for the minny to get a target painter BS and Gallente sensor dampner BS. Or BC versions. Does anyone at all see any merit in this idea?
Sure we do.. tho I would prefer a drone/tracking disruptor ship.. but even if we do .. The thing is, it has kinda been set in stone that all tier 3 BS will have 8 high slots and be rather shooting oriented.
To change that now would mean they would not come out now but prolly in kali 2/3 because of the many tests and balancing issues that would have to be redone..
You mean like how the Abaddon is balanced at the moment? No, those ship setups seem to be subject to change. Some of the Tier 2 BCs have already undergone slot layout changing (myrmidon for example) Only problem is that despite all the maths, suggestions, requests for a role change in these ships. We're getting cosmetic crap like grid juggling instead.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:46:00 -
[542]
Just for my curiosity. What is so good with Rokh? - No damage bonus. I.e. worst damage dealing BS in Eve history(except Raven and Scorpion, of course :) ) - Shield resist bonus. We do not need this bonus in fleet/big size battles at all. We rather do not need this bonus when sniping smth. (Most stupid bonus for BS after shield boosting bonus.) - Distance bonus is cool, but do not overestimate it. Even after nerf t2 Rokh cannot beat t2 Mega. - Rather difficult to fit because of low PG. - sluggish. - slow. - no even reasonable drone bay to help against smaller ships So, what cool in Rokh?
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:57:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Zixxa Just for my curiosity. What is so good with Rokh? - No damage bonus. I.e. worst damage dealing BS in Eve history(except Raven and Scorpion, of course :) ) - Shield resist bonus. We do not need this bonus in fleet/big size battles at all. We rather do not need this bonus when sniping smth. (Most stupid bonus for BS after shield boosting bonus.) - Distance bonus is cool, but do not overestimate it. Even after nerf t2 Rokh cannot beat t2 Mega. - Rather difficult to fit because of low PG. - sluggish. - slow. - no even reasonable drone bay to help against smaller ships So, what cool in Rokh?
here what is cool
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Etherios
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:58:00 -
[544]
1st a ship that needs modules to fit the guns it needs to use has a problem even before u fit it.
2nd The abaddon is a gank or tank u cant do both (they say) ... i want someone to make a set up that gives the Abaddon enuf cap to kill ANY tier 3 bs... ANY ... before it runs out of cap. And of course be logical... 4 cap rechargers on meds isnt logical ...
3rd Amarr are slow hard hitters/tankers. Why try to change that? WHY try to figure out a use for a ship that cant do anything well? ECM Missiles etc this isnt Amarr and this isnt why this bs was created.
4th Its easy to make the abaddon, not better but playable atm. Change the RoF to damage and increase either the cap or the recharge rate so it can have close to the Armas cap usage. So it wont be a Cap monster like the Apoc but it will have enuf cap/recharge so that with say 1 cap module it can last for a while. So more damage slower and more cap to tank better not both at once tho. I dont want too much cap, i like it when i need to fit or do cap management to be able to fight, it gives more reality to the fight.
Last i want ppl to actually stop whinning and try to talk with the devs. There is no point in WHINNING this is a game ffs. If u dont like Amarr plz start training something else. I dont want to change the way i like to play eve because the new ships isnt what we wanted to be. SO i discuss it and try to figure a way to make it more BALANCED... if nothing happens well ill try to make the best out of it. PLZ stop the whinning (not Amarr only ofc) and try to communicate with the devs.... i fi was a dev i wouldnt listen to ppl whinning but i would try to make the game more balanced because the thousand other more logical ppl are trying to have FUN and not whine the most because they dont have the ship they like....
Wish kali brings more new things so we can all have more things to hope for and more things to see and do... TUX dont listen to the whine plz...
True sight isn't given to all that look for it.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:48:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Zixxa Just for my curiosity. What is so good with Rokh? - No damage bonus. I.e. worst damage dealing BS in Eve history(except Raven and Scorpion, of course :) ) - Shield resist bonus. We do not need this bonus in fleet/big size battles at all. We rather do not need this bonus when sniping smth. (Most stupid bonus for BS after shield boosting bonus.) - Distance bonus is cool, but do not overestimate it. Even after nerf t2 Rokh cannot beat t2 Mega. - Rather difficult to fit because of low PG. - sluggish. - slow. - no even reasonable drone bay to help against smaller ships So, what cool in Rokh?
Lets see. The Rokh can fit 425x8, Sensor Boosters, Tracking Computers, and a passive shield tank, and low slots for damage and more sensor boosters.
It can take damage than any other LR sniper It has a resist bonus to make the passive tank stronger It has the longer range with T1 than T2 equiped opponents It is meant to be a fleet ship, which Caldari did not have It is not the worst damage dealing BS, the Apoc wins that one
So, what is so cool about the Rokh? It fills a void that the caldari had. Now they have a LR (the best LR) sniper ship in the game. I would suggest you go on SISI and play with the ship before you dis it.
There is something impressive about using AM ammo at 80km.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:14:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Zixxa Just for my curiosity. What is so good with Rokh? - No damage bonus. I.e. worst damage dealing BS in Eve history(except Raven and Scorpion, of course :) ) - Shield resist bonus. We do not need this bonus in fleet/big size battles at all. We rather do not need this bonus when sniping smth. (Most stupid bonus for BS after shield boosting bonus.) - Distance bonus is cool, but do not overestimate it. Even after nerf t2 Rokh cannot beat t2 Mega. - Rather difficult to fit because of low PG. - sluggish. - slow. - no even reasonable drone bay to help against smaller ships So, what cool in Rokh?
It is good because no other BS can hit it in fleets. It can optimal at 245 KM and just sit there while everyone else has to fly at least 30km in order to start pounding it.
That is a damage advantage in fleet situations. It is also a very strong passive tank
---
The Resist bonus is also good for passive tanks, the kind you want to fit in fleet battles, as well, this 25% bonus "shores up" the EM hole to an extent[makes it equivelent to thermal on most shield tanked ships without the bonus]
---
Distance bonus is a damage bonus because it allows you to fit shorter range ammo and hit at farther distances with it.
---
It is a fleet ship, and because it out ranges all the other fleet ships its one of, if not the best fleet ships.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:08:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Goumindong
It is good because no other BS can hit it in fleets. It can optimal at 245 KM and just sit there while everyone else has to fly at least 30km in order to start pounding it.
That is a damage advantage in fleet situations. It is also a very strong passive tank
In mixed fleet(and Rokh will be in mixed fleet nobody will care about distance Rokh can shot, everybody will shot from the fleet distance). So I missed point about usability loooong range in fleet battles. It is NOT POSSIBLE to have STRONG PASSIVE tank(and at all tank) having sniping setup. So choose one.
Quote: The Resist bonus is also good for passive tanks, the kind you want to fit in fleet battles, as well, this 25% bonus "shores up" the EM hole to an extent[makes it equivelent to thermal on most shield tanked ships without the bonus]
Nope. It's only 20-25% HP on shields more. Only 20-25%. It is easy to achieve adding one invluln t1 to the fit(instead of MWD for example). It is irrelevant for fleet battles, btw.
Quote: Distance bonus is a damage bonus because it allows you to fit shorter range ammo and hit at farther distances with it.
Nope. You may do this with t1 ammo, but not with t2.
Quote: It is a fleet ship, and because it out ranges all the other fleet ships its one of, if not the best fleet ships.
Mega and Tempest have more dps than Rokh in the same fleet. Tempest has better alfa-strike. Mega has much better tracking. WHERE, FFS, ROKH is BEST?
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:16:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Zixxa Just for my curiosity. What is so good with Rokh? - No damage bonus. I.e. worst damage dealing BS in Eve history(except Raven and Scorpion, of course :) ) - Shield resist bonus. We do not need this bonus in fleet/big size battles at all. We rather do not need this bonus when sniping smth. (Most stupid bonus for BS after shield boosting bonus.) - Distance bonus is cool, but do not overestimate it. Even after nerf t2 Rokh cannot beat t2 Mega. - Rather difficult to fit because of low PG. - sluggish. - slow. - no even reasonable drone bay to help against smaller ships So, what cool in Rokh?
Lets see. The Rokh can fit 425x8, Sensor Boosters, Tracking Computers, and a passive shield tank, and low slots for damage and more sensor boosters.
Let's count. med. MWD, 2 SB(we are going to hit from long range), 1 TComp. We have 2 free slots for passive tanking. What do you say about quality of the passive tank? S*****t or bull****?
Quote: It has the longer range with T1 than T2 equiped opponents
Yes, I know. It is written in description.
Quote: It is meant to be a fleet ship, which Caldari did not have
Above mentioned(long range) is not helpful in fleet battles. Passive tanking, btw, is also useless.
Quote: It is not the worst damage dealing BS, the Apoc wins that one
Really? I doubt...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:19:00 -
[549]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/11/2006 18:20:04 tempest have more dps in fleet? you looked at the graph i posted?
and is not just 25% more hps due to res, the rokh probably will save 2-3 mods over other fleet ships and theis means another 6-10k more hps with 25% res on top of that...
rokh will be to other BS what tech2 ammos are now to tech1...
if you have a rokh fleet you win, if you have a mixed fleet you loose
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:27:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Zixxa Let's count. med. MWD, 2 SB(we are going to hit from long range), 1 TComp. We have 2 free slots for passive tanking. What do you say about quality of the passive tank? S*****t or bull****?[/quote
Why would you put a worthless MWD on a LR fleet ship for. That leaves 3 slots for a passive tank. One omni and 2 shield boosters.
Pretty much all I see is you trolling every thread with a whine about how Caldari have it so bad. You do realize you come across as clueless?
The Rokh is going to be a great ship. Most likely the main stay of fleet battles. It can do with cheap T1 what most ships cannot do with the best T2.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2006.11.10 19:16:00 -
[551]
Originally by: Zixxa In mixed fleet(and Rokh will be in mixed fleet nobody will care about distance Rokh can shot, everybody will shot from the fleet distance). So I missed point about usability loooong range in fleet battles.
This is where you are wrong.
I have yet to see an FC gangwarp a mixed-class fleet to the same range without cementing his reputation for being a nub.
Ships in mixed fleets are usually ordered to warp to their chosen optimals. Especially given the gang changes planned in Kali, there is every reason to believe that Rokhs will be deployed at their furthest optimal by means of a squad warp to covert. Goumindong is actually correct, in that if there is any possibility of this ship operating out of range of the bulk of an enemy fleet, that is how it will be used in long range battles.
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Magnus Card
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.10 23:41:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Sherpondeldey
ps: i want a new feature! transfere my projectile skills to hybrids. Maelstrom is the 2d worst battleship after typhoon. rokh with its current bonuses is definetely uber comparing to 3 other BSs
What if you used projectiles on the rohk instead of missiles? You could fit 6-8 and still have a massive tank.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.11 00:31:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Zixxa
Let's count. med. MWD, 2 SB(we are going to hit from long range), 1 TComp. We have 2 free slots for passive tanking. What do you say about quality of the passive tank? S*****t or bull****?
Why are we fitting an MWD and a Tracking computer?
Tracking computers become traching enhancers and sit in your low slots, they have the same range bonus as tracking computers.
In a fleet, where the Rokh is most likly to be used, the Rokh, is not going to be moving much under normal speed. It will warp to its optimal, and then allign to the warp out rondevous. When it comes through gates, it will allign to the warp out-roundevous. When it warps through gates, it will be gang-insta'd to a gate.
There is little actual movement needed, especialy since it can hit at 245 km.
This leave 4 slots for a passive tank, and all of the lows can be used to increase damage/range. Probably 1 tracking/4 damage[2 tracking/3 damage]? I dont know, depends on how many tracking mods you need to get out to your desired optimal.
Quote:
Above mentioned(long range) is not helpful in fleet battles. Passive tanking, btw, is also useless.
No, passive tanking is the most important type of tanking in fleets. This is because it increases how long you live by the longest amount.
This is because without a passive tank, you will not be expected to live more than a few seconds after you have been shot at, meaning that you do not have time to run your reppers, you only have time to warp out if you are alligned.
Passive tanks increase the time you will live by increasing your shield or armor size more than you can rep before you die. Typically it takes a couple cycles to make up the difference. In fleet battles, since you dont have time to run a couple cycles, straight up HP/resistances is the way to go.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.11 09:41:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/11/2006 18:20:04 tempest have more dps in fleet? you looked at the graph i posted?
Your graph is false. Sorry. Period.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.11 09:45:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Zixxa Let's count. med. MWD, 2 SB(we are going to hit from long range), 1 TComp. We have 2 free slots for passive tanking. What do you say about quality of the passive tank? S*****t or bull****?[/quote
Why would you put a worthless MWD on a LR fleet ship for. That leaves 3 slots for a passive tank. One omni and 2 shield boosters.
MWD is must in regular fleet battle.
Quote: Pretty much all I see is you trolling every thread with a whine about how Caldari have it so bad. You do realize you come across as clueless?
Excuse me, but where do you see whining? I ask why Rokh is good. I didn't get answer.
Quote: The Rokh is going to be a great ship. Most likely the main stay of fleet battles. It can do with cheap T1 what most ships cannot do with the best T2.
Yes, yes. With lowest dps, laughful alfa-strike and both useless bonuses for fleet it will be real main stay of the fleet. I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails, but I do not see how Rokh may be more useful even than Mega.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.11 09:47:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy
Ships in mixed fleets are usually ordered to warp to their chosen optimals. Especially given the gang changes planned in Kali, there is every reason to believe that Rokhs will be deployed at their furthest optimal by means of a squad warp to covert.
First less or more reasonable answer on my question. Many thanks.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.11 10:01:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Goumindong
Why are we fitting an MWD and a Tracking computer?
Because it is fleet. MWD is must, distance is must, tracking is also required.
Quote: Tracking computers become traching enhancers and sit in your low slots, they have the same range bonus as tracking computers.
Yes, you are right here. We may have one additional free med slot, if replace comp on enhahcer. Good correction, thank you.
Quote: There is little actual movement needed, especialy since it can hit at 245 km.
245 km means a LOTS of enhancers. Three, I think in Kali(and add fitting mod). It means no DC in LOW and only 1(one) damage mod, consequently we have even more laughful dps.
Quote: This leave 4 slots for a passive tank, and all of the lows can be used to increase damage/range.
3 slots. MWD is just MUST be present.
Quote: Probably 1 tracking/4 damage[2 tracking/3 damage]? I dont know, depends on how many tracking mods you need to get out to your desired optimal.
Where is your Damage Control? It is quite helpful for passive tanking! And where is your RCU/PDS? How are you going to put 8 425 t2 without fitting module? Even 8 425 t2. It is impossible. And what about must have MWD?
Quote:
No, passive tanking is the most important type of tanking in fleets. This is because it increases how long you live by the longest amount.
You are wrong. In fleet battle every ship lives until locked. Imediately after lock it is destroyed. So passive tanking is most useless feature for the fleet BS(also shield boost and arm rep bonus are useless too).
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.11 10:17:00 -
[558]
Juts FYI, guys. Most important thing in fleet battles is alfa strike. And Rokh alfa strike is worse than Mega, Tempest, Apoc.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:09:00 -
[559]
Z, you don't post facts but just opinions. You call everyone a liar that does post facts. I believe the word for you is troll and look forward to you getting banned for doing nothing but trolling.
As for MWD, I have never seen a LR fleet battle that requires an MWD. You warp in, align, and lock and fire on the targets called out by the FC. What is the MWD for? All it does is reduce your cap and shields.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:09:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Goumindong on 11/11/2006 11:13:14
Originally by: Zixxa
Because it is fleet. MWD is must, distance is must, tracking is also required.
OK. I have shown how it is very easy to avoid using an MWD in a fleet. Now, you can tell me how an MWD is a nessesity.
What do you need a MWD for in a fleet?
Quote:
245 km means a LOTS of enhancers. Three, I think in Kali(and add fitting mod). It means no DC in LOW and only 1(one) damage mod, consequently we have even more laughful dps.
With Carbonized Lead, you hit 230 KM optimal with 2 Tracking Enhancer II's. Much better than anything anyone else is offering. With Spike[Kali version], you hit 251km optimal with 2 TE II's, and 225 with 1 TE II. So no, it really isnt "a lot" of tracking enhancers.
Quote:
3 slots. MWD is just MUST be present.
Again, you continue to fail to explain why you need an MWD.
Quote:
Where is your Damage Control? It is quite helpful for passive tanking! And where is your RCU/PDS? How are you going to put 8 425 t2 without fitting module? Even 8 425 t2. It is impossible. And what about must have MWD?
yup, forgot the RCU/PDS. Didnt forget the MWD, you dont need it. Dont need the DC either, its handy, but its not as essenial as shield hardeners/extenders. If you want, you can fit 1 TE, 2 Damage, 1 PDS, 1 DC. And you will hit at 225km. You would be better fitting 2 TE, 2 Damage, 1 PDS and then leaving your DC somewhere else, becasue any ship is going to have to fly 40 kilometers before it can hit you.
Quote:
You are wrong. In fleet battle every ship lives until locked. Imediately after lock it is destroyed. So passive tanking is most useless feature for the fleet BS(also shield boost and arm rep bonus are useless too).
This is simply untrue. Every extra ship that is required to activate on the primary target is another ship that cannot immediatly start to activate on the secondary target. If you are able to make yourself have double your effective armor, this will outweigh a 50% damage boost in terms of relative damage per second by about 33%. A fleet that fits tank over gank will win over an equal fleet fitting gank over tank because their relative DPS will be higher.
E.G.
Ship 1: Deals 1 dps, Takes 1/2 damage Ship 2: Deals 1.5 DPS, takes full Damage.
Ship 1 shoots Ship 2, Ship 2 shoots ship 1. Ship 1 deals 1 damage to ship 2, Ship 2 deals 75% damage to ship 1. In real damage, Ship 1 outdamages ship 2 by 33%.
Because damage comes in so fast in a fleet situation, passive tanking is the only effective tanking as you dont have time to get a rep/boost off and is more beneficial for the fleet until a specific point of stacking penalty[which i dont care to calculate] than damage.
Originally by: Zixxa Juts FYI, guys. Most important thing in fleet battles is alfa strike. And Rokh alfa strike is worse than Mega, Tempest, Apoc.
Not nessesarily. A high alpha strike will reduce the number of ships that you need in order to kill your main target. However, if you dont kill it in one shot, or have enough power to kill it in one shot, then recycle time is also very important, because it allows you to swtich targets faster and engage them without waiting for your weapons to be ready.
As fleets get bigger, pure adjusted DPS is what really matters as those difference equalize out over time.
Edit: You cannot complain that your damage is weak in fleets and also assert that tanking is useless, they counteract the others, if passive tanking is useless then DPS is as well because you have so many ships, it just wouldnt matter.
Tank and DPS both matter in fleet battles, that is why ships fit for range[so they take less damage than their opponent] in fleets, and that is why fleets fit passive tanks, and that is why fleets fit damage modifiers.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:39:00 -
[561]
I advice an immediate stop to all replies to Zixxa. His input derails and destroys the discussion, consider him flamebait until such time as he provides logical arguments, KALI discussion, and mathematically verifiable proof of his claims
Can someone please salvage where the discussion was before the multitude of erroneous input was injected, or pick up a new point of discussion. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:47:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Ithildin I advice an immediate stop to all replies to Zixxa. His input derails and destroys the discussion, consider him flamebait until such time as he provides logical arguments, KALI discussion, and mathematically verifiable proof of his claims
Can someone please salvage where the discussion was before the multitude of erroneous input was injected, or pick up a new point of discussion.
/agreed.
Because I said so...
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:51:00 -
[563]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 11/11/2006 11:55:58 Maybe we all should report Zixxa for ranting/trolling? This is not the first thread he derails with his crap, and probably not the last either if noone stops him.
Just to point out HOW clueless the guy is:
Originally by: Zixxa Nope. It's only 20-25% HP on shields more. Only 20-25%. It is easy to achieve adding one invluln t1 to the fit(instead of MWD for example). It is irrelevant for fleet battles, btw.
A 25% resistance increase equals a 33% HP increase, not 25%. He is just as wrong on 99% of his other issues. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:54:00 -
[564]
I believe we were talking about how awesome the Rokh is, how great it is for a real fleet BS for Caldari, how repititve the Maelstron, Hyperion, and Abaddon seem, how the Maelstrom will make a pretty good shield tanked AC boat, and how absolutly useless the Abaddon is unless it fits projectiles or four+ NOS's[and projectiles].
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 12:23:00 -
[565]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 11/11/2006 12:24:49
Originally by: Goumindong I believe we were talking about how awesome the Rokh is, how great it is for a real fleet BS for Caldari, how repititve the Maelstron, Hyperion, and Abaddon seem, how the Maelstrom will make a pretty good shield tanked AC boat, and how absolutly useless the Abaddon is unless it fits projectiles or four+ NOS's[and projectiles].
I believe your right. It pretty much comes down to the Caldari got a good fleet ship. Everyone else got a ship that does not add anything above what they already have, and in most cases is worse than what they already have. From what I have gleamed and some testing on SISI:
Amarr - not enough cap to either tank or gank Gal - A blaster boat without tracking bonus, need I say more? Minnie - An artillery boat that would do better as a AC (now this is not first hand since I dont fly minnie)
Overall, the stealth cap nerf hurts the gal and amarr. The stealth alpha nerf hurts the minnies.
The gist seems to be, every race not caldari got more of the same only worse and the cal got a much needed fleet ship. The other races would like the Dev's to not give poor designs to them and round out their ship offerings. Namely:
Amarr - add either a drone or EW BS Gal - give the ship some blaster type bonuses (tracking/damage) RoF sucks with cap nerf Minnie - I have read the posts but not sure what they want done with thier ship
I think that gets up back up to where we were.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Aphotic Raven
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Posted - 2006.11.11 12:28:00 -
[566]
Hey did i not read in a dev blog and watch a video interview in which the devs said that they were looking at bringing fights, especially fleets "closer together" and talking about getting the love on up close and such... i really dont see how introducing some crappy sniping ships, and boosting caldari a bunch will have any use at all...
Really do we need more rail/arty/laser long range **** going on?
Now the ferox seems to be one ship that actually can passive tank pretty well, the way people talk about the rokh makes it seem like a big ferox (i like the progression at least, what is it caracal>drake>raven, moa>ferox>rokh, blackbird>lol?>scorp?) but imagine with the new crazy ammounts of shield and armour out there... cap is going to be a larger problem for sure if you need to boost/rep/maintain ****ty lasers...
could the rokh maintain passive tank long enough to *****another BS with cap neuts and guns/missles? Im not well versed in the caldari ways clearly, but i know that a passive BS scares the **** out me in my NOS based dominix.... killing someone else's cap makes up for my crap damage, if they dont need their cap, and i cant use them to rep myself, im pretty boned... and i'll still last longer than the amarr guys....
Please discuss. is this a possibility? (Caldari suck. You're the ****s of the storyline you know.) So
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.11 12:57:00 -
[567]
I am not sure the issue with a blaster boat that doesnt have a tracking bonus.
Blasters have the best tracking of any close range weapon to start with by a sifinicant amount.
Everyone running a blaster ship is going to web whatever they are shooting at anyway.
It will make a difference when shooting at frigs and cruisers, but not much against anything else aside from rage with null.
Amarr arent made useless due to a tracking penalty [50% on conflag combined with 60% of the tracking of blasters], so im not really sure why a blasterboat, which will have more tracking than the laserboat is going to be obsolete from it.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 13:24:00 -
[568]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 11/11/2006 13:25:13
Originally by: Aphotic Raven Hey did i not read in a dev blog and watch a video interview in which the devs said that they were looking at bringing fights, especially fleets "closer together" and talking about getting the love on up close and such... i really dont see how introducing some crappy sniping ships, and boosting caldari a bunch will have any use at all...
Really do we need more rail/arty/laser long range **** going on?
Well, even if the range comes down, a Rokh now with T1 modules and T1 weapon/ammo out ranges every other ship in the game. If you cut everyones range by x amount, it is still going to out range every other ship in the game.
I would not worry about the range reduction until they put something forward. I mean, look at the longer battles they wanted. The most simplistic way to do it was to increase HP, so they did. Now we have to figure out how to live with a cap nerf and alpha nerf.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.11 13:30:00 -
[569]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 11/11/2006 13:30:38 for abaddon i'm not that sure it is a so bad ship
for support midrange i should be a very good ship if fitted with a passive tank...
for long range i have some doubts but taking rigs into account the situation seem to be way better
this is a graph with just 3 mods (2dmg and 1 tracking)
graph
here a config that can be used
8 tachs t2
2 cap rec 2 1 sensor booster 1 tracking comp
2 heatshinks 2 2 rcu 2 2 power relays 1 1600 rolled tungsten or a 3rd pewer relay
3 laser cap reduction rigs (t1)
with 3 power relay there is not cany cap comsumption with this config the cap produced is the same of the one used by guns, so it is possible to drop a power relay for a plate or a tracking enhancer
comparing it to rokh is not that good, but compared to the mael probably is a better ship
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.11 13:33:00 -
[570]
It is very hard to effectively passive tank a battleship as to do so you fit oversized extenders, and battleships do not have oversize extenders
The ferox is good because it has inately high resistance, and enough powergrid that you can fit a lot of large shield extenders.
A battleship gets the same number of large shield extenders (no option for extra large) and has a much worse base recharge rate so the effective increase is lower.
Zarch AlDain
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.11 13:35:00 -
[571]
Edited by: Goumindong on 11/11/2006 13:37:26 2 cap recharges, 3 cap rigs, 3 RCUs and a tank that consists of 1 1600mm plate for a ship that shoots at 150 km?
Why dont i fit an armageddon with 7 tachs, 4 RCU's, 2 Damage mods, 2 1600 plates, and 3 gun damage rigs?
1 sensor boosters/2 tracking computers in the mids
Same range, more damage, more tank, less cap use.
Better tracking too.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.11 13:55:00 -
[572]
rigs atm are stacking with mods so 2 dmg + 3 dmg rigs will be like to have a bit more than 3 dmg mods
for lasers, and expecially in a long range config imo cap usage reduction is the best choice
so the damage difference between the 2 ships is not extreme, tank will be equal or even better for the abaddon due to higher base armor and 25% resists (33% more hps)
cap usage is not that different with the 2 cap relay abbaddon
and as said that was using t1 rigs, with t2 the abaddon should get more advantage over other amarr ships
also i'm not saying that abaddon is fine as it is now, as you see the rokh is quite superior to it, but for sure is quite near to the mael (that have its problem too)
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.11 14:10:00 -
[573]
If rigs are stacking with mods, then its a bug. And, according to at least one independent account, had been fixed after you tested it.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.11 14:30:00 -
[574]
mmm actually i tested it in the last public build used and was working like that
checked with 3 t1 cap rigs and situation should be quite good
indeed is it possible to fit a 3/2 mod config + 1 plate and have a very good cap comsumption, with t2 probably there will be space for another mod
also i agree that atm there is much confusion about rigs, i can be wrong too and/or maybe rigs will change again until release.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 14:41:00 -
[575]
Originally by: Ath Amon for abaddon i'm not that sure it is a so bad ship
for support midrange i should be a very good ship if fitted with a passive tank...
for long range i have some doubts but taking rigs into account the situation seem to be way better
The only problem is that there is not enough cap with this ship and not enough hold to carry enough injectory charges. If you try for damage, you run out of cap in 2 minutes or less (all charges used) or if you try to tank.. you cannot use any large energy turret weapons or you run out of tank in minutes.
The geddon does better damage for less cost when drones are added in. The geddon also is less demanding on the cap since it has a damage bonus, not a RoF which eats cap. The Apoc with the hugh cap tanks better and can still fire weapons.
Anyway you look at it, the Abaddon is neither a great tanker or a great ganker. The 50% boost only makes this worse.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Mastin Dragonfly
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.11 15:59:00 -
[576]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan The geddon also is less demanding on the cap since it has a damage bonus, not a RoF which eats cap.
Geddon has 5% RoF and 10% cap use bonuses, not damage. Unless that got changed on testserver?
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 16:09:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: Miri Tirzan The geddon also is less demanding on the cap since it has a damage bonus, not a RoF which eats cap.
Geddon has 5% RoF and 10% cap use bonuses, not damage. Unless that got changed on testserver?
Your right my bad. But the cap bonus on the geddon still makes it more sustainable than the abaddon.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:02:00 -
[578]
actually i see the abaddon as different than geddon or apoc
i see it more as a support (gank) ship for midrange combat or a longrange tach platform (if not fitted with ACs then it get a huge tank :P)
but mostly my point was that atm the ship seem not that good because of its huge cap compsumption but, most of the time, this evaluation is made whitout taking in account new rigs
if rigs will share stack penalities with mods then this ship can get a huge boost from them as, maybe it will never be a gank + active tank, but in fleet it can have both better dps and tankage than a geddon.
all of this still keeping in account that atm rails are a superior weapon system than both beams and arties and so the rokh will always be a superior ship
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:05:00 -
[579]
sure it¦s possible to fit an abaddon with cap stuff like mad to make sure you can hold cap for 5 mins, but you waste alot of slots. Other ships have no prob to fit turrets/launchers that deal the same amount of damage as abaddon and run them without killing there cap in seconds and they still can use the rigs slots and other slots to fit some damage mods or tank. wasting 7-8 slots for cap recharge and turrets cap usuage is simply insane when the other races bs can use these slots still for tank and damage mods.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:17:00 -
[580]
Originally by: FalconHawk sure it¦s possible to fit an abaddon with cap stuff like mad to make sure you can hold cap for 5 mins, but you waste alot of slots. Other ships have no prob to fit turrets/launchers that deal the same amount of damage as abaddon and run them without killing there cap in seconds and they still can use the rigs slots and other slots to fit some damage mods or tank. wasting 7-8 slots for cap recharge and turrets cap usuage is simply insane when the other races bs can use these slots still for tank and damage mods.
Here! Here! Right to the the point. If all your rig and low/mid slots are being taken up with cap regen modules then you dont get space for anything else.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Atar
Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:22:00 -
[581]
I have to admit from my testing the Abaddon dosen't have the cap it needs, I'm not a big flier of Amarr, heck let alone BSs, but there is definitly a problem there.
For the most part I'm not that impressed with any of the new BSs they sure don't seem like anything tier3. I was hoping for at least a down and dirty, close up fighter, the maelstrom is a real dissapoitment to me. Not everyone in EVE fights in fleet battles, the Tempest already excelled at that, I guess I was looking for a overgrown Stabber. The maelstrom should have been a heavy armor tanker with AC bonuses, but oh well.
For the most part the best new BS is the Rokh, I can fit blasters and have decent range, a decent tank and damage; hell with the rails, too many snipers now. Enough with the snipe and gank, we have the extra 50% stats so lets us get upclose and personal and really battle it out.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:59:00 -
[582]
in fact i agree with that but also i think that an amarr fleet ship to be functional should need to fit cap rechargers as its base dps is way higher than other weapons...
i'll do a comparsion with arties because lasers and arty are imo better balanced that lasers vs rails (overpowered :P)
if you look at the graph i posted above you will see that the abbaddon curve and the mael one are not that umbalanced... abaddon do way more damage while the mael have a better range.
now if you look at modules used you will see that mael was using 6 mods (3 tracking and 3 dmg) while the abaddon just 3 (2 dmg and 1 tracking)
this should mean that (more or less), in the current situation, an abaddon to be balanced with a mael damagewise use 3 less modules
to balance that in my opinion is necessary for the abaddon to use such modules for cap purpose, if the ship will have just a few cap problems that a single booster/recharger is needed then the abaddon can fit other 2 damage/tracking modules and totally outperform the mael.
to that imo i think we should add the rig efficency if a particular rig will have an high efficency (as could be the case of cap consumption ones) here that the modules needs can be a bit more severe.
all of this discussion to say that imo a ship like the abaddon wich have 2 good bonuses for fleet action (+rof +res) need to use some of its rigs or mods to balance its cap.
now is this overall balanced?...
no as the rokh is clearly a better ship, but this imo is a more general problem about beams vs rails, not of this ship itself...
the ship seem good to me, good slots, good bonuses, armor tank... it have everything it need... then if the cap usage is so severe to make it not comparable to a rokh the problem can be elsewhere...
beams imo need a good cap reduction, as much arties need a range or dps boost, this not to remove the cap usage but to bring "necessary cap modules"/damage curve more inline to mods/curves of other ships, in particular by the rokh.
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:34:00 -
[583]
noone said that abaddon should need no cap mods, amarr ship always needed cap mods, but to use 1/3 of all slots for cap recharge is simply a tat too much
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 19:07:00 -
[584]
But the problem is that the Abaddon does not have the cap or the cargo space for injector charges to last more than 2 minutes in combat.
The geddon has the same bonus and with skills only uses 50% of the laser cap per turret. With the geddon having an extra low slot, it can put an EANM2 in and have the same resists that the 7 low adaddon has. The geddon has more drone bay, enough for five heavy drones, which the abaddon does not have. Damage wise, the geddon with 5 heavy drones will out damage the abaddon at close range and be only slightly less effective at max range. The extra turret on the abaddon just helps it run out of cap faster. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.11 21:01:00 -
[585]
IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?
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Cividari
Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.11 21:32:00 -
[586]
Havent read all of this and just quickly just browsed through the last couple of pages. I saw some people claiming MWD is "useless" in fleet setups so I thought I would mention some highly possible scenarios where its a must have.
1: You jump into a bubbled gatecamp so you MWD to outside the bubbles range. 2: You warp your fleet in at 180km from the enemy and a dictor manages to drop a bubble on you (it is bound to happen if their dictors are any good) so once again you just use the MWD for a cycle or two in order to get out of the bubble. 3: Same as 2 but the enemy warps in on you, if you now dont get a dictor bubble right on top of you your enemy simply sucks . 4: You get bounced off a gate while your fleet is moving so instead of beeing left behind/forcing the whole fleet to wait for you, you just mwd back to the gate.
That is why MWDs imho are a must have on fleet battleships and are one of the first mods I fit while working on setups. Oh and sorry for going abit offtopic.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.11 21:50:00 -
[587]
Originally by: XFreedomX IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?
And the reason you would take 1 logistic ship and 1 abaddon instead of 2 geddons is?
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.11 22:35:00 -
[588]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 11/11/2006 13:08:06 I am not sure the issue with a blaster boat that doesnt have a tracking bonus.
Blasters have the best tracking of any close range weapon to start with by a sifinicant amount.
Everyone running a blaster ship is going to web whatever they are shooting at anyway.
It will make a difference when shooting at frigs and cruisers, but not much against anything else aside from range with null[still much better than lasers at that range though, even without a tracking bonus, worse than AC's though].
Amarr arent made useless due to a tracking penalty [50% on conflag combined with 60% of the tracking of blasters], so im not really sure why a blasterboat, which will have more tracking than the laserboat is going to be obsolete from it.
I think he's right, if only for the reason that once you have a web on your opponent, and it's another BS, you can hit it pretty easy if both of you are dead still, which is usually the case after you get settled. It's the settling part that takes some skill to achieve in a precise manner.
That being said, I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus. Right now it can tank harder than a Mega due to it's rep bonus. The Hype needs to do damage, plain and simple. I also think that the Mega's tracking bonus is largely wasted due to the whole concept of short/long range (read: fleet) combat.
Tracking simply isn't an issue in PVP. You either have the target webbed and you hit it, or you don't have it webbed and it's either out of range or you can't hit it anyway due to transversal. No amount of reasonable tracking bonus will help you hit an unwebbed target with large blasters at close range.
With fleet, who cares if you don't have tracking. The Rokh doesn't have any tracking bonus and I'm hitting BSs at 30-40km with transversal just fine. At 250km it's even less of an issue, even with Spike's tracking nerf.
The Hype is supposed to have superior cap reserves. It does not. It should be able to mwd into range, get point blank on a target and unload on it, kill it and then be able to mwd away and escape or continue to the next target. Right now all that happens is that it gets up close, after having been nossed for the last 15km by 3-4 heavy nos, opens fire, the damage is fully tanked by the target until there isn't any more cap for the Hype, and then it dies. Pointless.
The same issues are evident in the Abaddon only more so. Just give it a damage bonus already. ROF is the worst thing to add to a laser ship as a damage bonus.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.11 22:37:00 -
[589]
Originally by: XFreedomX IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?
Not only do ships need to work for fleet, they need to work for solo and small gang pvp.
Because I said so...
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.11 22:48:00 -
[590]
Originally by: murder one I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus.
- - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.12 02:27:00 -
[591]
Originally by: murder one
That being said, I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus. Right now it can tank harder than a Mega due to it's rep bonus. The Hype needs to do damage, plain and simple. I also think that the Mega's tracking bonus is largely wasted due to the whole concept of short/long range (read: fleet) combat.
And people say amarr ask for too much.
That is a 37.5% damage bonus and a 37.5% RoF bonus. Or a 37.5% damage bonus and a 60% damage bonus from RoF. All in all, that is a 120% damage bonus for the ship [compared to 25% for a Megathron].
And the Hyperion has 8 turrets opposed to the Mega's 7. This would make the Hyperion do 101.1% more damage than the Megathron at targets that arent under its transversal.
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: XFreedomX IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?
And the reason you would take 1 logistic ship and 1 abaddon instead of 2 geddons is?
Because you were dumb. That or your friend wasnt skilled enough to fly a BS well.
As for logistics ships.
Logistics ships only function if they wont get called primary in a fleet battle, and they are relativly useless outside of a fleet battle due to the same problem. As well, most ships dont benefit much from logisitics ships unless in a passive role [its sitting at the safe spot repperring passivly tanked shield/armor tankers that warp to it], and unless they are maxamized to work with a logistics ship.
The only time a logistics ship can be beneficial is when it cant be hit at all[because they are so fragile] essentialy, which means that they need enough range to be significantly out of lock range from the enemy fleet.
Which is only possible for Rokhs because no one else has the range to keep their logistics ships out of lock range.
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Sonho
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Posted - 2006.11.12 10:04:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: murder one I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus.
Indeed .....
How about the hype getting 3 bonuses the ones you said and the armour repairer? And the slot layout of 8/8/8.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 11:01:00 -
[593]
Here's a deal, you don't do generalizations and I won't do generalizations.
That's two degrees of acting like arses removed from the world, only countless degrees left.
The problem with the Hyperion is and will ALWAYS be that it is a Megathron Mk.II nothing else. The developer team needs to decide, which of the two is going to be a blaster boat, and which is not - then take it from there. And I beg any developer reading this: don't make one of them a "fleet" ship, every race needs their own concepts they don't need to be able to do everything. - EVE is sick. |
Bazan Kor
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.12 11:09:00 -
[594]
I agree Ithildin, I did some playing about with fittings yesterday and the way I see it is that although the Hyp does less damage than the mega, due to the mega tracking bonus (this applies at long range and short range) its 8 turrets make up for it. Leaving it with simply a better tank.
I quite like having the potential to do anything with either ship though. I think editing stats to make one of the ships specifically a blaster boat is wrong. The way they are now the hyp is more suited to blasters because of its short locking range and higher speed but it can do a medium/long range role as well with a tank. I much prefer this idea to giving it a mwd bonus of something like that as it makes it useful in more than 1 area.
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Armois Delgato
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.12 16:33:00 -
[595]
I know this has already been said but they really, really should make the baddon' a giant arbi or an affordable bhaalgorn... or just do that one idea with the tiering system of EW(or tertiary racerole)/racerole1/racerole2 as seen in that one idea.
A giant arbitrator would be kind've nice as one of our choices... the way it is looking I'll -still- be using my geddon for everything battleship come Kali.
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:28:00 -
[596]
I tested the Rokh today... god average gunnery skills
8 325mm Railgun I XL SB, amp, 3 Hardeners II, Tracking Computer 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II, 2 PDS II
only tested it on lv4 so far - guns are great... But I didn't have any cap whatsoever left to run the shield booster so had to jump off everytime I took too much damage :(
It's not like I can active tank well with cap power relays in low and not sure 4-5 PDS II is enough...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:37:00 -
[597]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/11/2006 18:39:41
Originally by: Goumindong I believe we were talking about how awesome the Rokh is, how great it is for a real fleet BS for Caldari, how repititve the Maelstron, Hyperion, and Abaddon seem, how the Maelstrom will make a pretty good shield tanked AC boat, and how absolutly useless the Abaddon is unless it fits projectiles or four+ NOS's[and projectiles].
Maelstrom looks to have less dps than the Typhoon. And Typhoon is armor tanked and faster which makes it much better for solo work. Im trying to see the Maelstrom as some kind of gang autocannon ship, but... I dont know. The other minnie battleships are better than it at everything basicly. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:57:00 -
[598]
Originally by: XFreedomX Well... While I wouldn't take 1 logistic and 1 Abaddon over 2 geddon, I would take 4 Abaddon and 2 logistic over 6 geddon. The Abaddon can be equiped for Max dmg and Tank with no wasted slots used for CAP. Point here is there are ways to overcome deficiencies in a ship, Abadon fleets can be warped out to recharge and back in to re-engage if needed.
As for logistic ships been called primary first, that only shows how powerful they are if left alone....
Problem is that a 6 geddon outfit will still do more dps than a 4 abaddon outfit. You would need 7 abaddons vs 8 geddons to get *equal* dps (for longrange setups without drones). For the combined HPs 6 geddons also beat 4 abas easily, even with their resistance bonus. They are also cheaper alltogether and faster.
And the reason logistic ships are called primary is not because they pop very fast. They do not represent an huge danger, but since they get destroyed with so little effort their damage inflicted/firepower invested ratio is very high.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.12 19:50:00 -
[599]
even for me is not a very good solution to "sacrify" a bs for a support ship
if a BS like abaddon will realy heavilly on other ships to fire then the fleet will become quite vulnerable as losing a support ship will be like to lose 1+ BS
even the idea to warp in and out is not that good imo... basically you are going to loose the dps advantage you have over other ships
at best i can see a tempest or 2 that fit a mid or light cap transfer mod to help a comrade, but this should be not the "solution" to cap problems... just a small help if cap start to run really low.
still comparing abaddon to rokh the difference in efficency is huge, probably even if it had a 5%rof 10%cap usage the ship was not able to compete with the caldari new BS
as said imo the problem is more in lasers than on ships... or better by the difference of rails compared to other turrets.
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.12 19:59:00 -
[600]
Rokh seems a fine ship, but OMG it doesn't have nice cap either...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.12 20:10:00 -
[601]
eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps...
also with passive you don't need much cap and you can use it just for the guns :)
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Mastin Dragonfly
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.12 20:23:00 -
[602]
Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 12/11/2006 20:24:06 No news whatsoever about possible changes to the new battleships from the Fanfest?
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy.
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:27:00 -
[603]
Originally by: Ath Amon eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps...
Rokh doesn't passive tank nearly as well as a Ferox/Drake. Though I guess, it's okay for mission running... as far as large turrets are okay for mission running.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:31:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly No news whatsoever about possible changes to the new battleships from the Fanfest?
That is what's bothering me as well. I sure hope things aren't set in stone and all this discussion here is for nothing.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.13 07:13:00 -
[605]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/11/2006 07:17:14
Originally by: Forsch I sure hope things aren't set in stone and all this discussion here is for nothing.
Of course it is. Kali is planned to come to TQ in 15 days, so... fat chance they are going to start fiddling with the ships now when there still are bugs in Kali. They can make changes, but they wont have time to really test them. So I think they wont.
This thread might be looked at later though, if they want to boost the ships in some patch.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.13 07:38:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Originally by: Ath Amon eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps...
Rokh doesn't passive tank nearly as well as a Ferox/Drake. Though I guess, it's okay for mission running... as far as large turrets are okay for mission running.
ehm i was speaking about fleet, that is its supposed role... for mission running raven or even better CNR will be waaaaay better
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.13 08:26:00 -
[607]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Of course it is. Kali is planned to come to TQ in 15 days, so... fat chance they are going to start fiddling with the ships now when there still are bugs in Kali. They can make changes, but they wont have time to really test them. So I think they wont.
This thread might be looked at later though, if they want to boost the ships in some patch.
Don't take my illusions.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.13 10:36:00 -
[608]
That abbadon plus logistics gang would lose horribly to the geddon gang.
Geddon gang instapops logistics, then concentrates firepower on the abbadons, abbadons pop a short time later.
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.13 11:17:00 -
[609]
Rokh for PvE shouldn't be a problem - 350mm railguns seem to work fine (antimatter up to 33km optimal with average skills hehe). Passive tank works great for PvE but I sure hope an active tank is viable with rigs and/or a cap recharger or something...
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.13 11:28:00 -
[610]
i¦m not even sure that 1 support ship for a fully fitted abaddon will be enough, maybe someone can calculate the cap needs of a full 8 tachy (or maybe even 6-7)? i suck at it
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.13 11:33:00 -
[611]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Of course it is. Kali is planned to come to TQ in 15 days, so... fat chance they are going to start fiddling with the ships now when there still are bugs in Kali. They can make changes, but they wont have time to really test them. So I think they wont.
QFT
However it should probably also be noted most of the criticisms and suggestions made in this thread were first put forward *way* back when these tier 3 ships were first described - and then again when the first detail on them was known. So whilst the "not enough time to test them" excuse might be valid for response to this particular thread, it doesn't really excuse them from still having these (frankly) broken and/or pointless ships still coming into the game in this form.
Meanwhile, the next time anyone says on the forum (as many have) that "The time to complain about the ships is when they're on the test server"...
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.13 11:48:00 -
[612]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/11/2006 11:51:27
Originally by: Lucre
Meanwhile, the next time anyone says on the forum (as many have) that "The time to complain about the ships is when they're on the test server"...
Yeah. People have given the devs their opinions on the ships since the first test stats got introduced, and they arent that different today compared to when we first saw them. They moved a slot from medium to low on some ships, and the other way around, but the basic core of the ships remain very much the same.
At least they managed to create new battlecruisers that rock peoples socks off. :) Every single one of them is really, really good and now people are just arguing about which one beats who, and why they dont like it. But they ARE all good.
And by the way... Tuxford didnt understand how people could obsess about test stats that was 2 month old. I dont think thats a mystery anymore.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Trance Gemmini
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Posted - 2006.11.13 14:33:00 -
[613]
Edited by: Trance Gemmini on 13/11/2006 14:34:56 Personally, I think the Abaddon is CCP's way of saying, 'look all you Amarr whiners, it could be worse. So stop crying about your ships/lasers.'
OK... OK.. CCP, we get the point. Can we please have a ship that's worth a **** now?? Can we finally have our primary weapons and thier cap needs looked at?
It's great being Amarr, Ain't it?
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.13 19:00:00 -
[614]
MWD is required a) to quickly relocate ships on positions b) to quickly get out from the bubbles c) to tank missiles. d) because commander ordered MWD More than enough reason to fit MWD. So it is must.
Now, I will repeat very slowly 1. Most important thing for the fleet ships is alpha-strike. Rokh is worse than Tempest, Mega, Apoc, Abaddon. 2. Passive shield tanking is not important in fleet battle - any ships lives until locked. If you do not believe me, than look at awesome video from BoB. Or ask RA to show you what is the fleet. 3. DC for passive tanking(for anybody thinking that passive tanking is good) is much more useful than whole Rokh shield tanking bonus. 4. Long range of Rokh possibly will be useful. Sometimes. Somewhere. But it is less useful now than one simple and stupid 5% damage bonus of Megathron.
Rokh is good ship in some situations, but I do not see anything exceptional. Low dps and miserable alpha-strike are not compensated by 50% long range and 25% more resistant shield.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.13 19:19:00 -
[615]
You're only looking at a small part of the game, Zixxa. Don't assume everyone does the same that you do.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.13 21:11:00 -
[616]
Zixxa, while it may be true that every ship lives until its locked, by increasing the number of ships that need to activate on you to destroy you, the next target on the list will live longer due to weapon recycle time. This increases the amount of time the fleet stays alive, not nessesarily the amount of time each ship stays alive.
If tanking is irrelevent in a fleet, then so is DPS.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.13 22:37:00 -
[617]
people should stop trying to discuss with obvious trolls. its hard enough for the devs to ignore the 21 pages we have here already without us cluttering it up more.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.13 23:45:00 -
[618]
The one thing that makes the Rokh outstanding in my eyes is that it enables fleet combat for people without T2 guns. Some T2-crazed people always ignore that there are vast numbers of people who can't use T2 guns, all those were pretty much excluded from fleet combat until now. Even if I don't care much for it, it is good to at least have the option now without training the long T2 large gun road. The dps won't be all that hot, but at least it is better than 0. And the Mega's damage bonus isn't all that helpful when you cannot hit your target, is it? --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.14 09:24:00 -
[619]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar The one thing that makes the Rokh outstanding in my eyes is that it enables fleet combat for people without T2 guns. Some T2-crazed people always ignore that there are vast numbers of people who can't use T2 guns, all those were pretty much excluded from fleet combat until now. Even if I don't care much for it, it is good to at least have the option now without training the long T2 large gun road. The dps won't be all that hot, but at least it is better than 0. And the Mega's damage bonus isn't all that helpful when you cannot hit your target, is it?
Don't worry... it won't take too long before there are a vast number of people who can't use T2 fitted Rokhs that are excluded from fleet combat.
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.14 11:07:00 -
[620]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar The one thing that makes the Rokh outstanding in my eyes is that it enables fleet combat for people without T2 guns. Some T2-crazed people always ignore that there are vast numbers of people who can't use T2 guns
You also omit the fact that a rack of T2 425s currently costs more than a Megathron does! (Hint to devs, this might give a clue that rails and lasers are not well balanced atm!) A Rokh doesn't just give (post-nerf) T2 ranges to T1 users, it gives T2 ranges at T1 prices...
Now if the Abaddon did the same, it might almost be worth flying...
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.14 11:11:00 -
[621]
With the range and damage reduction in T2 ammo, the Rokh's advantages become even more pronounced. It will indeed out range and outdamage the Megathron, and in so doing become the premier fleet ship. The difference in range between Iron and Spike will now only be 20%. With the Rokh's range bonus, it will be able to hit *farther* using iron ammo than a Mega using spike. It won't do as much damage, but it will still be able to hit. And this is just for the T1 guns. The T2 guns will be able to out-range *and* out damage the Mega.
Another key point is lock time. Zixxa is correct that an MWD is very valuable in fleet, for all the reasons that he stated. Knowing this, it will still be very easy to fit a fleet Rokh with a full rack of T2 425s and an MWD and all the other requisite mods with one key difference over the Megathron: it will be able to fit more sensor boosters. Faster lock time is key. More rounds on target faster = more ships out of action when seconds will make the difference between living and ending up in a clonebay.
The Mega *might* have been able to compete if T2 Spike ammo was left alone and not nerfed. As it sits now, the Rokh's range bonus will be even more dramatic and we'll have no choice but to use it for fleet.
Because I said so...
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.14 12:00:00 -
[622]
The day I need a Caldari Noobmobile to compete is the day i cancel my 3 1/2 year old Account (+beta).
I fear it's the 28th of this month.
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Lobo Noturno
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Posted - 2006.11.14 12:11:00 -
[623]
Let's make it simple:
If someone thinks the rokh needs to be nerfed, state your idea for the nerf and why it's needed. Otherwise, there is no point saying it isn't overpowered or that it is. Stats tell me it's not overpowered, and it's main advantage right now is that it fits among the other two caldari BSs better than any other of the tier 3 BS.
I am tired of messages discussing the rokh. I really believe it's the one BS that is right... The Devs need to know exactly what each new BS should be used for, state that clearly, and let us test them. Right now, no one seems to be sure on how the Abbadon, or the Maelstron should be used. And the Hyperion is not clearly an upgrade over the megathron as a blaster ship...
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.14 12:37:00 -
[624]
I got the impression, that we gave our opinions clear and easy to understand. CCP is ignoring them, so why bother anymore? But ofcourse you could be right and one last uber post with super clear facts changes all. But why do Caldari get their good tier 3 and all others need to do math?
We want:
Amarr: Good skirmish BS for short range solo/gang/support(ew), eg big Arbitrator, Missleship, mix of it, we dont care as long as we dont get a third subpar fleet bs.
Gallente: Either a true Blastership with uber close range gank, or Support BS with many medslots and EW Bonus (Big Celestis).
Minmatar: Uber AC Boat with speed, many turrets medium tank, and perhaps adjustments to Typhoon/Tempest to become Support/Long Range Ships, eg TP Bonus for Typhoon to use Missles far more effective (perhaps 5 missleslots) and the Tempest gets a bit more grid for those 1400mm.
But it will get ignored and we get a third Crap Amarr ship, a second Blasterboat thats alomost a copy of Megathron, and a "i dont know what im good for" BS
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.14 12:43:00 -
[625]
again?
ewwww ok...
here the graph rokh is ubahhhh :P
as you can see the rokh to be totally superior to the mael is alredy using a less mod...
eventually it can go even with 4 mods and be still superior to male... (so it is alredy saving 1-2 mods)
rokh targetting range with 1 sensor booster should alredy be around 200km
mael with 1 sensor booster should be around 160km
so ipotetically the rokh can chose to save another mod...
rokh have higher base dps and 25% res to all...
so we have an average of 2 mods saved and 25% res = it both outrange and outtank the mael
as you see also the dps difference between the 2 ships is not that huge... 7% difference
abaddon is a bit different... it have huge dps potential but also need 4 mods + rigs to sustain its fire
how to fix the rokh?
2 ways...
1)nerf the ubah rokh!!! give it 6 turrets instead of 8.. this way its dps will be way lower, maybe lower enought to justify the use of other ships in a fleet, also caldari are not a turret race... i think we can say they "split turrets" as much as minnies "split missiles" so, storywise it makes also sense.
2)boost other long range ships this is my fav as arty and lasers are also totally inferior to rails...
speaking about arty here the graph... arty is crap
so first step is to boost arty stats... my fav solution is with a 40-50% range bonus but even a dps boost of 25% can work
second step is to change mael boost bonus in a passive tank one as a 10% shield hps/lv
comparsion graph with increased range
for laser, simply reduce the beam/tachs cap usage by a 25-30% and eventually boost optimal a bit
ps: adding other graphs
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.14 13:56:00 -
[626]
Nerf the Rokh? Why? I don't think alot of people want that. The Rokh is the only Tier3 battleship that does its job properly. It is different from the other Caldari BBs, yet does its job with good, maybe even outstanding performance. No need for a nerf, it is a shining example of the ideal Tier3 battleship imho.
Most don't want the Rokh nerfed, but the other Tier3s boosted to do the same, not the current same old and maybe even worse approach we see in the Abaddon, Maelstrom and Hyperion... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.14 14:11:00 -
[627]
Originally by: Perry I got the impression, that we gave our opinions clear and easy to understand. CCP is ignoring them, so why bother anymore? But ofcourse you could be right and one last uber post with super clear facts changes all. But why do Caldari get their good tier 3 and all others need to do math?
We want:
Amarr: Good skirmish BS for short range solo/gang/support(ew), eg big Arbitrator, Missleship, mix of it, we dont care as long as we dont get a third subpar fleet bs.
Gallente: Either a true Blastership with uber close range gank, or Support BS with many medslots and EW Bonus (Big Celestis).
Minmatar: Uber AC Boat with speed, many turrets medium tank, and perhaps adjustments to Typhoon/Tempest to become Support/Long Range Ships, eg TP Bonus for Typhoon to use Missles far more effective (perhaps 5 missleslots) and the Tempest gets a bit more grid for those 1400mm.
But it will get ignored and we get a third Crap Amarr ship, a second Blasterboat thats alomost a copy of Megathron, and a "i dont know what im good for" BS
Pretty much QFT
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Karash Amerius
Amarr O.E.C
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Posted - 2006.11.14 17:47:00 -
[628]
How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror?
Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level.
I think that would be a good "role"
Merc Blog |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.14 17:54:00 -
[629]
Originally by: Karash Amerius How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror?
Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level.
I think that would be a good "role"
would be a nice tank with autocannons. much like the apoc only with a better 2nd bonus.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.14 18:25:00 -
[630]
While it would certainly would make it better than it is now you might as well just remove the apoc from the game then.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2006.11.14 18:34:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Aramendel While it would certainly would make it better than it is now you might as well just remove the apoc from the game then.
I wouldn't go that far. Thanks to its fitting and bonuses, the Apoc has a definite edge over both the Abaddon and Armageddon when used as a fleet Tachyon platform. It will keep firing far longer than the others. I think given the Abaddon's inevitable drift towards autocannons, the Apoc will remain the Amarr fleet sniper BS.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.14 19:23:00 -
[632]
I was referring to
Originally by: Karash Amerius How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror?
Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level.
I think that would be a good "role"
I would really be interested where the apoc would be preferable then. Certainly not in fleet warefare.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.14 20:50:00 -
[633]
I do not understand why everyone have their heart set on changing the Abaddon. I like it just the way it is. Put 8x1400mm T2 on it and armor tank it to hell. No CAP issues here, and mid slot 2 tracking comp and 2 sensor booster.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.14 21:41:00 -
[634]
Originally by: XFreedomX I do not understand why everyone have their heart set on changing the Abaddon. I like it just the way it is. Put 8x1400mm T2 on it and armor tank it to hell. No CAP issues here, and mid slot 2 tracking comp and 2 sensor booster.
So you dont plan on firing weapons? The ship can only fire for 2 minutes with T2 Tachs and a hold full of charges. If your going short range, with that many plates, how are you going to move?
I would like to see two things.
Change the from 5% to 10% per level for controlled burst.
Change RoF bonus to Cap Recharge Rage Bonus say 20 % per level. That would change the 750 second base rate to 375 seconds at BS level 5. Actually I would suggest doing that in place of the cap bonus on all Amarr ships also, but this is about the Abaddon.
Then the lasers use twice as much cap but the cap rechanges twice as fast. It evens out.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.14 21:50:00 -
[635]
hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon.
While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy.
Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus. Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:08:00 -
[636]
Originally by: XFreedomX hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon.
While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy.
Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus. Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.
maybe YOU didnt noticed, but amarr dont want to use projectil weapons on their ship, wasting one or two bonuses and being still subpar to any other ship in same class, especially in shorter ranges and longer engagements.
So please stop posting here with this kind of attitude towards amarr (tracking bonus to lasers, and suggesting to fit artillery at the same time, what are you smoking over there?).
Thanks.
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Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:57:00 -
[637]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 14/11/2006 22:57:40
Originally by: XFreedomX hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon.
While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy.
Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus. Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.
that is the problem we shouldn't need to fit minnie weapons on an amarr ship with a bonus to amarr weapons
CCP fix this freaking ship
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.14 23:11:00 -
[638]
i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves
the idea should be not to change the abaddon or maelstrom (even if its shielf boost need to be changed) to compete with rokh in offensive compartment...
but to change the weapons because the umbalance is in weapon systems and not in ships
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.14 23:56:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Ath Amon i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves
well looking at the abaddon as it is now you cant really do much other than completely scrap the design and go back to square one. the whole idea behind it is wrong and proven not to work.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.15 00:35:00 -
[640]
I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not with the Amarr ships, the problem is with the beam weapon's energy consumption. Your BS already have the most CAP of any race and the best power grid, continue to increase that just make it a better platform for other weapon systems. Better to leave it as is, and reduce cap usage of all weapon's by XX% and likewise ammo capacity to counter the upcomming changes, or to introduce modules to reduce cap use for turret and ammo capacity.
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Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.15 00:56:00 -
[641]
Finally got on the test server to try out the hyperion. Needless to say I was skeptical going in.
The extra tankability is pretty decent but megathron is almost as good as a blastership and combined with the fact that rigs need power and megathron has more power, megathron will likely be the better design. I fully expected the Hyperion to be a tanking nos ship from it's bonuses but it seems it's powergrid prevents that, and nos doesn't seem to be very effective anymore, nos stats seem to be the same but they don't seeme to be working very good.... anyways, next I thought, well powergrid isn't an issue on snipers right? so I setup the hyperion as a sniper. It's got more hp than a megathron, similar range, a bit more damage and it still locks at 235km or something when you use 3 sensor boosters.
Hyperion turns out ot be a small improvement to the megathron in sniping (well, 20% more hp is pretty good, all other aspects are about the same, but it's much more expensive).
For blasterships, I think it's close but the differences I've found:
I'm comparing dual rep hyperion to a dual rep mega and : mega does more damage per second (ion's are better than electrons and extra low slot can fit another MFS. but 7 guns compared to 8. Over all mega I think has about 10% more dps) mega has 26% better tracking (37% bonus but ions track a bit worse) hyperion has 37% better damage rep'd per second hyperion has a better capacitor hyperion goes 7% faster hyperion has something like 20% more starting HP. hyperion locks a bit faster (something like 15%). hyperion has an extra midslot but they are no longer really better than low slots anymore since ECM has been nerf'd.
If you add all these factors together, I think the hyperion would win in a fight (they could both tank each other pretty good but since hyperion uses less cap / amount repaired it can out last the megathron. However, I will still use megathron since I don't want to pay the extra amount to buy the ship for such a small edge.
If it's not my imagination and the nos is getting weakened... combined with the longer battles but no more drone HP, dominix is getting hurt bad.
Also, I thought Absolution was gonna really bad ass with an unbeatable tank, Nos, and a couple autocannons to shoot the other guy... but with nos weakened, I think it will only be good at sniping (rigs will lessen the cap penalty).
-Bart
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.15 01:00:00 -
[642]
Originally by: XFreedomX I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not with the Amarr ships, the problem is with the beam weapon's energy consumption. Your BS already have the most CAP of any race and the best power grid, continue to increase that just make it a better platform for other weapon systems. Better to leave it as is, and reduce cap usage of all weapon's by XX% and likewise ammo capacity to counter the upcomming changes, or to introduce modules to reduce cap use for turret and ammo capacity.
While your right about the beam weapons, I put my standard Apoc mission rig on an Abaddon and it could not handle the 7 MPL2s and tank at the same time. It really capped out when I turned the Office LSmartBomb on. I can run LAR/MAR 7xMPL2 /w Multi and the SB for a long time on the Apoc I cannot run the MPL2s and the Reps on the Abaddon.
The design with the current bonuses just does not work.
That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level.
The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.15 01:54:00 -
[643]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level.
The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game.
which abaddon bonus do you want to replace with that 20% cap recharge rate?
replace the 5% resists and you get a better geddon. replace the 5% rof and you get a better apoc.
not really going to change the fact that this ship is a failed design and most definately not a much needed addition to the amarrian fleet. it does not fill a new role the way it is now and changing it to become clsoer the our old battleships wont fix that.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.15 03:06:00 -
[644]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level.
The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game.
which abaddon bonus do you want to replace with that 20% cap recharge rate?
replace the 5% resists and you get a better geddon. replace the 5% rof and you get a better apoc.
not really going to change the fact that this ship is a failed design and most definately not a much needed addition to the amarrian fleet. it does not fill a new role the way it is now and changing it to become clsoer the our old battleships wont fix that.
I agree it is a failed design. It would be nice if it was a drone or EW ship, but that is not what we have. I would rather have a better Apoc for the price, since a geddon is cheaper and does the same damage. At least a better Apoc would have some value with battles lasting longer and could be used for PvE. The Abaddon does not even make a good PvE ship.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.15 04:21:00 -
[645]
Although the 20% recharge rate bonus will help the Abaddon with the CAP issue, it will make it a better projectile platform then a beam platform, which I am sure upsets the Amarrian purists...
Abaddon fitted with 1400mm will win out against Tachyon fitted configuration every time because the 1400mm fitting will have power grid left for 1600mm plates as well as more cap for rep. To a lesser extend, all Amarrian ship will face this challenge with the hp increase.
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Tricit
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.15 04:31:00 -
[646]
Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:45:12 Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:32:41 Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:30:59 I know this will never make it, but I just did this for fun out of boredom.
Abbadon: -19.6% Extra Large Energy Turret Power Grid needs per level. -15% Extra Large Energy Turret Capacitor usage per level.
(Variations) *Values are the same default >Abbadon Navy Issue< -Abbadon Imperial Issue-
-Fitting- 21000 Power Grid -21000- >26000< 800 CPU -800- >950< 8 High Slots -8- >8< 3 Medium Slots -4- >4< 8 Low Slots -8- >8< 8 Turret Hardpoints -8- >8< 0 Launcher Hardpoints -8- >4<
-Attributes- (Structure) 9300 -12000- >14000< Capacity: 680m3 -680m3- >780m3< Drone Capacity: 75m3 -175m3- >125< Mass: 120,000,000kg * Volumn: 1,250,000m3 (50,000m3 packaged) * EM Damage Resistance: 0% * Explosive Damage Resistance: 0% * Kinetic Damage Resistance 0% * Thermal Damage Resistance: 0% *
(Armor) 10800 -16500- >19000< EM Damage Resistance: 60% * Explosive Damage Resistance: 20% * Kinetic Damage Resistance: 25% * Thermal Damage Resistance: 35% *
(Shield) 8200 -12500- >14000< Shield Recharge Time: 3000s * EM Damage Resistance: 0% * Explosive Damage Resistance: 60% * Kinetic Damage Resistance: 40% * Thermal Damage Resistance: 20% *
(Capacity) 6200 -6200- >7000< Capacitor Recharge Time: 870s *
(Targeting) Maximum Targetting Range: 95KM -95KM- >115KM< Max Locked Targets: 4 -4- >4< Scan Resolution: 70mm -70mm- >70mm< Radar Sensor Strength: 35 points -39- >43< Signature Radius: 550m *
(Propulsion) Max Velocity: 100m/s -120m/s- >100m/s<
(Required Skills) Amarr Battleship Level III Spaceship Command Level IV Amarr Cruiser Level IV Spaceship Command Level III Amarr Frigate Level IV Spaceship Command Level I
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Tricit
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.15 04:35:00 -
[647]
I r so crazy
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.15 05:47:00 -
[648]
BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......
Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage.
We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.15 07:50:00 -
[649]
Originally by: XFreedomX BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......
Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage.
We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.
We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.15 08:53:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: XFreedomX BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......
Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage.
We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.
We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day...
The point of your comment escapes me. You think we should have support type bonus on Battleships? Maybe you think it is better to have shield transfer bonus instead of range bonus on the Rokh?
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.15 10:12:00 -
[651]
What he says is that the Scorpion is one of the most useful and most used ships in PvP, because electronic warfare is just so incredibly powerful in Eve, and you can't justify only one race out of four having that kind of capability by saying that everyone elses battleships should purely be geared towards damage and tanking.
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Mush Room
Caldari Svea Rike Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:25:00 -
[652]
Originally by: Noriath What he says is that the Scorpion is one of the most useful and most used ships in PvP, because electronic warfare is just so incredibly powerful in Eve, and you can't justify only one race out of four having that kind of capability by saying that everyone elses battleships should purely be geared towards damage and tanking.
Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. ECM is only effective when you choose not to protect yourself against it. This is how everything in eve works. Run a cap-dependant setup and I will nos you to death. You go close-range and I will web you. Everything has a counter. But hey, you go ahead and slam on another armor resist with uber stacking penalty instead of putting on a backup array. Never ceases to amaze me how much people can complain about ECM, even now that it is being nerfed.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:29:00 -
[653]
What about to remove this annoying 50% HP increase? It seems that without 50% increase all major problems will vanish? Tempest will stay with its alfa, Abaddon will be much more effective, no gal/amarr whining that capa is out, no gal/amarr whing that Caldari won Eve, etc, etc, etc.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:59:00 -
[654]
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: XFreedomX BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......
Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage.
We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.
We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day...
The point of your comment escapes me. You think we should have support type bonus on Battleships? Maybe you think it is better to have shield transfer bonus instead of range bonus on the Rokh?
Geez... The Rokh is fine, as you would know if you had read my previous posts. What I am saying is that the Scorp is also fine, and used tons. And Battleships with EW bonuses (And that is NOT support, EW is an important part of direct warfare) for the other races would be just as fine imho. Definitely better than the half-assed same old things we got now. I don't think we need to argue about the power of damps, and while tracking disruptors don't work against missiles (they should though, disrupt missiles tracking = increase their exp radius) they are still good, plus the Abaddon would get a drone bonus as additional treat if I had a say. Just Minmatar would need something else I guess, a real targetpainting missileboat would probably be too powerful (I would still love it though) while a targetpainting turret-boat would be underpowered. Though that could possibly be offset by a larger dronebay since drones also benefit quite a bit from painting, but then again we got the phoon already. Maybe make the Phoon the Minmatar EW ship by giving it a 5th launcher slot, changing the turret ROF bonus into a painter one and giving it 8/5/6 slots, so we have a targetpainting half-baked missile boat with a large dronebay? And then make the Mael an AC boat. But I digressed lol... Basically Scorp = great, so other EW Battleships will likely also be great.
--------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:25:00 -
[655]
And it's only ECM that gets a range bonus on its dedicated ships (20% per level!). The other methods of electronic warfare just can't reach out to the battleship level/distances. That's why I want a range bonus to tracking disruptors on the abaddon (or the apocalypse after changing one of them into a drone boat).
And yes, looking as how successful the scorpion is being used in fleets it would only be fair to give the other races an ewar battleship as well.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Lobo Noturno
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:26:00 -
[656]
Ath,
You proved that the maelstron is not as good as the rokh, not that the rokh is overpowered in it's role. I am guessin part of the problem is assuming the new ships are all fleet ships, which they are not...(fleet blaster ship??? Abbadon running out of cap in mid of a fight, not able to warp out???) That's why i want the devs to state how the hell they think each ship should be used for us to verify if that usage is possible and better than the other BSes of the same race on the same role... Right now, only hyperion and rokh have clear roles, and while the rokh works perfectly well in that role, the hyperion isn't really great at it...
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:57:00 -
[657]
Originally by: Mush Room
Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM.
hahahahahhahahahahaha. no seriosuly. go and try it some time.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.15 13:16:00 -
[658]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno
we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)
the abaddon is imo another mid-long range ship
so i don't say that these ship should be 100% equal, but that they should be at least comparable...
the rokh atm is not comparable to any ship that can fit that role...
not considering gallente ships (that atm have not a real long range platform) the other ships are too much inferior to it (as shown in the graph)
now... is it a rokh problem or a weapon one?
actually i agree with you that the rokh can be ok for its role... its bonuses and its fitting is not that uber by itself... both mael and abaddon have similar bonuses and fitting... so imo the real problem is with their weapons...
as shown in the comparsion between arty and rails these weapons are not balanced at all... before kali alpha was able to balance that difference a bit... but with kali with both HP boost and range nerf this is no longer true...
for laser the discussion is quite similar to arty, is just a bit more difficult to do a comparsion as the problem there is not damage/range itself, but cap
now for me there is no problem to keep the rokh as it is now, is a fine ship and i assure you i don't want it nerfed... but to keep the ship overal balanced with other ones supposed to fit a fleet role we have to fix the weapon umbalance, or really in a couple of months we will see a situation where T2 rokh = actual T2 fitted ships and T2 other ships = actual T1 fitted ones
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.15 14:09:00 -
[659]
Edited by: Noriath on 15/11/2006 14:14:04
Originally by: Mush Room Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. ECM is only effective when you choose not to protect yourself against it. This is how everything in eve works.
Sorry, but that entire statement is just stupid. You can't claim that ECM is useless, or not a major advantage in the game because everyone has the option of gimping their ability to tank regular damage in order to counter it, especially since there is no other way to defend against it, and the modules that do counter ECM don't give you a bonus of any other kind.
If the mere presence of ECM in the game can make people use up one or two slots to defend against it with mods that give no other benefit it is clearly one of the most powerful and feared systems in Eve.
Besides, other races don't get more slots then Caldari, they have more lows at the expense of medslots, it's just not like they get free slots to counter ECM on every ship.
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:02:00 -
[660]
Originally by: Tricit
Abbadon: -19.6% Extra Large Energy Turret Power Grid needs per level. -15% Extra Large Energy Turret Capacitor usage per level.
Somehow I like this crazy idea Caldari got the XL Shield Booster and Amarr get the XL Turret. At least it would suit the Amarrian way to fight with the Battleships lineup and fire their devestating Lasers while the smaller ships line up in front to keep the smaller Enemy ships away from the own Battleships.
I think it would need some testing for the ballance, but the idea is just cool
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:38:00 -
[661]
How about changing the Abaddons RoF Bonus to something usefull, like
+10% faster logoff / lvl
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:52:00 -
[662]
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Tricit At least it would suit the Amarrian way to fight with the Battleships lineup and fire their devestating Lasers while the smaller ships line up in front to keep the smaller Enemy ships away from the own Battleships.
Unfortunatly something like that will never work in Eve, since most fights never even happen unless you warp in at optimal. People will never fight their way through a picket of cruisers to kill a battleship, they will just warp in, kill the battleship, and warp out...
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:57:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Noriath
Unfortunatly something like that will never work in Eve, since most fights never even happen unless you warp in at optimal. People will never fight their way through a picket of cruisers to kill a battleship, they will just warp in, kill the battleship, and warp out...
Then these long range ships should at least have enough armor and/or resistance (an other attribute of the amarrian race) that there is enough time for the cruisers to help the battleships. ;)
I know thats just a dream atm but hey eve changes with every patch, 3 years ago everyone dreamed about a possibility to built player owned structures and nowadays many Corps have them. ;)
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Einar Matveinen
Gallente Segunda Fundacion O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:20:00 -
[664]
Sorry, i don't know if my question has been answered already, i'd like to know if the gallente Hyperion appearance is going to be the same as the Megathron when Kali reaches Tranquility.
Is there any image of the Hyperion's appearance?.
Thanks. -- Rekister÷itynyt Linux kSyttSjS nro 221083 Katso Gentoo Linux |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:50:00 -
[665]
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno
we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)
What? Rokh is the ONLY long range platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:03:00 -
[666]
Originally by: Zixxa Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
I would be very happy to exchange the current abaddon with the rokh if you don't mind.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:10:00 -
[667]
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Zixxa Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
I would be very happy to exchange the current abaddon with the rokh if you don't mind.
Please, I do not need ship without any damage bonus. I have Ferox. It is trash in PvP, helpful only with ECM(before Kali, after Kali Ferox is pure trash). Abaddon, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Apoc, Geddon will beat Rokh 24/7 in fleet. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:13:00 -
[668]
Originally by: Zixxa Abaddon, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Apoc, Geddon will beat Rokh 24/7 in fleet.
If you are so sure about this you should accept my offer.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:23:00 -
[669]
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Zixxa Abaddon, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Apoc, Geddon will beat Rokh 24/7 in fleet.
If you are so sure about this you should accept my offer.
i think we have a very good opportunity here to make both zixxa and us amarrians happy.
now we just need to convince tux that this would be way better for caldari: rokh: 5% hybrid rof, 5% shield resists abaddon: 10% laser optimal, 5% armor resists
i say we let zixxa work on convincing tux and we'll take it upon ourself to try and get amarrian pilots to accept this horrible optimal bonus.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:37:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Uldyr Vulpayne abaddon: 10% laser optimal, 5% armor resists
Hawt. THAT would almost make up for having to use 2 cap injectors.
Hey, if its good enough for Caldari, why not for Amarr?
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:42:00 -
[671]
Originally by: Zixxa Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno
we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)
What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
still trolling around?
it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...
and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...
and you continue to say tank is useless, range is useless, dps is useless... what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?
if you think that i'm so wrong plz post your data to enlight me
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.15 19:27:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno
we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)
What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
still trolling around?
still trying tutorial?
Originally by: Ath Amon it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...
May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.
Originally by: Ath Amon and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...
Get calculator and calculate. Few examples: Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns And Tempest has better alphastrike.
Quote: and you continue to say tank is useless,
In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.
Quote: range is useless,
Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok?
Quote: dps is useless...
You lie.
Quote: what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?
Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy. Fleet ABC for you, noobie. For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL. Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
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Pille Dufrais
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Posted - 2006.11.15 19:37:00 -
[673]
Why are you all wasting your time talking about this - I'll eat my hat if there is any significant change to any of the new ships (particularly abaddon :) before kali is released. Especially considering their planned release date.
Asking for feedback on the ships is a cosmetic "we care" exercise, they won't change anything.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.15 19:41:00 -
[674]
Originally by: Pille Dufrais Why are you all wasting your time talking about this - I'll eat my hat if there is any significant change to any of the new ships (particularly abaddon :) before kali is released. Especially considering their planned release date.
Asking for feedback on the ships is a cosmetic "we care" exercise, they won't change anything.
Because I am in fury. Just in fury. I lost millions SP in missiles and Caldari BS/Caldari cruisers(thank you, TUX, thank you very much). --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
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ProphetGuru
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.15 19:50:00 -
[675]
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 15/11/2006 19:50:47 This may quite possibly be the most useless thread I have had the displeasure to read since beta.
It's disorginized and impossible to properly read without getting a headache. Their has been no dev interaction on ANY proposals here, and their have been a number of very good ones.
If we wanted another 21page ***** session with no feedback we coulda made it on our own to be honest.
These ships have not changed much since they hit test, and you are discussing a deployment in 1 week ffs. WTF is the point of us testing stuff if no compensations are made. 3 of the 4 ships in this post need to be tweaked. I would dare say 2 of the 4 approach uselessness.
Have you learned nothing since the clusterfrack named castor?
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.15 19:51:00 -
[676]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 19:53:00
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno
we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)
What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
still trolling around?
still trying tutorial?
as you see my avatar is clearly visible.. (not as your) so probably i finished the tutorial a bit, before you
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Ath Amon it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...
May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.
Originally by: Ath Amon and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...
Get calculator and calculate. Few examples: Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns And Tempest has better alphastrike.
little problem is that arty and rails have not the same stats so your gun comparsion is worth nothing as they are using different weapons...
to do a simple example... if i have a weapond that do 30x dps of another one i can mount just 1 gun and outdps by a far amount a ship that mount 10 guns with *1.25*1.33
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: and you continue to say tank is useless,
In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.
Quote: range is useless,
Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok?
Quote: dps is useless...
You lie.
if tank is useless so is the dps...
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?
Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy. Fleet ABC for you, noobie. For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL. Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.
i alredy posted the graph showing the dps difference of mael/pest/rokh... you said it was a lie and posted nothing...
and about who is the noobie...
Originally by: Zixxa
I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails, but I do not see how Rokh may be more useful even than Mega.
how is that you are so expert of fleet battles and hybrid weapons BS if you have yet to train rails?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.15 19:56:00 -
[677]
Edited by: Aramendel on 15/11/2006 19:57:23
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: and you continue to say tank is useless,
In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time. ...
Quote: dps is useless...
You lie. ... Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.
You are contradicting yourself here. A tank is the counterpart to dps. If a tank is useless dps is useless as well. If dps is important a tank is important, too.
Note that "tank" does not necessarily mean "active armor/shield tank" or "passive recharge shieldtank", an "I have 1 zillion extenders/plates fitted where you have to chew through first" is a tank as well. When people use the "passive tank" term for fleet setups they mean the "HP buffer" tank, not the "shield recharge" tank.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.15 20:22:00 -
[678]
Final thoughts on the Hyperion:
Its too similar to the Megathron. With the tracking nerf on Null, it will be more beneficial to use the Megathron over the Hype.
Also, the Mega can fit damage rigs more easily than the Hype for both Blasters and Rails. This means its DPS WILL be superior for both blasters (plus the extra tracking) and rails.
Oh and it costs 100m more than the mega. What a crock of crap.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.15 20:57:00 -
[679]
Edited by: Goumindong on 15/11/2006 20:59:17
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Uldyr Vulpayne abaddon: 10% laser optimal, 5% armor resists
Hawt. THAT would almost make up for having to use 2 cap injectors.
Hey, if its good enough for Caldari, why not for Amarr?
Nyxus
If that happened, at least the only other ship that could retaliate in kind would be the Rokh and its far enough out that using a logistics ship works[because the Abaddon could hang at 240km and the logistics ship 30km behind that, making it untargetable].
A small price to pay for the 33% DPS drop.
edit: Aramendel, i have told Zixxa this three times already, and even showed how a 50% resist tank[3 low slots] is better in relative DPS than a 50% damage boost[also 3 lowslots]
She just doesnt understand basic logic.
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Atar
Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.16 05:35:00 -
[680]
Originally by: ProphetGuru Edited by: ProphetGuru on 15/11/2006 19:50:47 This may quite possibly be the most useless thread I have had the displeasure to read since beta.
It's disorginized and impossible to properly read without getting a headache. Their has been no dev interaction on ANY proposals here, and their have been a number of very good ones.
If we wanted another 21page ***** session with no feedback we coulda made it on our own to be honest.
These ships have not changed much since they hit test, and you are discussing a deployment in 1 week ffs. WTF is the point of us testing stuff if no compensations are made. 3 of the 4 ships in this post need to be tweaked. I would dare say 2 of the 4 approach uselessness.
Have you learned nothing since the clusterfrack named castor?
I have to agree we could at least use a thread on each ship, but no one is going to read though 23 pages of this stuff.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.16 08:37:00 -
[681]
Originally by: Zixxa I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails,
Ahh Okay, I guess that explains your total lack of any kind of clue expressed in pretty much every post you made. Never ever fired a gun in EVE yet, have we? Optimal, falloff, tracking, what IS that?!?! And of course DPS is the one and only meaningful variable in combat ever...
--------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.16 11:03:00 -
[682]
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno
we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)
What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.
still trolling around?
still trying tutorial?
Originally by: Ath Amon it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...
May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.
Originally by: Ath Amon and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...
Get calculator and calculate. Few examples: Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns And Tempest has better alphastrike.
Quote: and you continue to say tank is useless,
In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.
Quote: range is useless,
Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok?
Quote: dps is useless...
You lie.
Quote: what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?
Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy. Fleet ABC for you, noobie. For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL. Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.
I kinda feel better now, I guess I'm not the only one that Zixxa treats so poorly. Zixxa, you really should refrain from calling everyone a liar. It's not acceptable.
Because I said so...
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.16 11:48:00 -
[683]
Originally by: murder one
I kinda feel better now, I guess I'm not the only one that Zixxa treats so poorly. Zixxa, you really should refrain from calling everyone a liar. It's not acceptable.
I think it's partly a problem with his/her poor English skills, and partly a problem with him/her being an immature *******. I think it's something like a 20%/80% mix of those.
I wish these forums had an "ignore" filter.
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Dumus
Silver Service
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Posted - 2006.11.16 11:56:00 -
[684]
Way too many posts to read as you have lomped them all togther
Anyway the Abidon. I tried a few setups and this ship is a waste! I cannot ever see me wanting to fly this on TQ. Cap runs out too fast and its DPS is a joke for whats supposed to be a top of the line ship. I can out kill it in an absolution!
And besides it looks like a dogs breakfast of a design imo ---------------------------
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.16 14:42:00 -
[685]
Originally by: Ath Amon as you see my avatar is clearly visible.. (not as your) so probably i finished the tutorial a bit, before you
Stop trolling.
Originally by: Ath Amon it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...
May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa
Get calculator and calculate. Few examples: Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns And Tempest has better alphastrike.
little problem is that arty and rails have not the same stats so your gun comparsion is worth nothing as they are using different weapons...
It has no big difference. But Mega has 8.75 rails while Rokh(o my God!) has 8. And mega uses less capa. And tempest is better than Mega(for fleet), even after nerfing apha strike. Would you be so kind to calculate Hyperion?
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: and you continue to say tank is useless,
In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.
Quote:
if tank is useless so is the dps...
Tank is useless in fleet battle. Dps is useless in fleet battle. Ok, I AM SORRY, politically correct statement. Tank is ALMOST useless in fleet battle. Dps is ALMOST useless in fleet battle.
Quote: i alredy posted the graph showing the dps difference of mael/pest/rokh... you said it was a lie and posted nothing...
It is enough.
Originally by: Zixxa how is that you are so expert of fleet battles and hybrid weapons BS if you have yet to train rails?
I am **** pure missile, pure Caldari ALT! And I my missiles ARE USELESS in PVP. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.16 14:47:00 -
[686]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Zixxa I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails,
Ahh Okay, I guess that explains your total lack of any kind of clue expressed in pretty much every post you made. Never ever fired a gun in EVE yet, have we? Optimal, falloff, tracking, what IS that?!?! And of course DPS is the one and only meaningful variable in combat ever...
I am *** missile ALT. Pure missile ALT. Pure Caldari. And FYI, dude, dps is only meaningful variable in combat only for you. For fleet battle counted not dps, but alpha-strike. And with zero alpha-strike(missiles) I am zero in fleet battle. But with smaller gangs we are going for dps. And in terms of dps missile boats suck again. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:09:00 -
[687]
Edited by: meppa on 16/11/2006 17:34:11 Now with 50% cap increase in sisi (along with 50% longer cap recharge time) abaddon can sustain tachyon fire for 1 minute 30 seconds (5/4 cap skills, 4 on gunnery cap usage skill), tested also with 2 cap relays and got whopping 3 second increase in time, so 1 minute 34 seconds while losing 20km on optimal range. Apparently cap batteries or boosters might be more helpful, but isn't it bit harsh that long range bs needs cap booster just to sustain gunfire for more then 90 seconds?
And yes i truly was just running 2 sensorbooster II, 2 tracking computer II and 8 tachyonbeam II with aurora L.
Some update. Changed one tracking comp to heavy cap injector, had to ditch med repper for power diagnostics. This time i managed to shoot long enough, but not long enough to deal enough damage to bring down a domi that wasn't running reppers, but had 1600mm plate. Also i was burning those cap booster charges so fast that i need an industrial to follow me in fleet ops.
I would like to say at this point that abaddon is totally pointless ship even with capasitor changes.
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Mareia
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:59:00 -
[688]
-Rumor- PS Tux said he was thinking about changing abaddons bonus to damage rather than ROF. Make him do this ASAP. -Rumor-
If this is true, I will be very happy with the abbadon and a very happy amarr BS skill V Pilot
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.16 18:02:00 -
[689]
Rof to damage won't help much, that means 25% slower cap drain, so basically 25% longer combat time, brings it up to to around 2 minutes.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.16 18:22:00 -
[690]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 16/11/2006 18:23:16 as long as rails is so superior to other turrets you will need 3 ship bonuses to compete with rokhs...
don't think this is going to happen
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.16 18:43:00 -
[691]
Originally by: Mareia -Rumor- PS Tux said he was thinking about changing abaddons bonus to damage rather than ROF. Make him do this ASAP. -Rumor-
If this is true, I will be very happy with the abbadon and a very happy amarr BS skill V Pilot
just changing the bonus from rof to damage would be a start but wouldnt really fix the deeper problems this ship has. it will still be a 3rd amarrian fleet bs. maybe it will be better than the other 2 but it will not add anything new unless some real changes are made.
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Taketa De
Gallente Seneca Federation Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:01:00 -
[692]
Personally I think cap increaes is the wrong way to handle this. Making cap weapons use less cap instead would be a solution will less side effects and so less balancing issues. --- The Advanced Drone Control Panel. |
Mareia
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:06:00 -
[693]
Edited by: Mareia on 16/11/2006 19:09:53 With my current skills, Cap recharge rigs and my standard Fitting I can tune a Abbadon to:
9.180 Cap at 385 seconds Recharge time = 23,84 Cap/s or 59,6 cap/s peak recharge
Thats better than my apoc on Tranquility. So with changed rof= Damage Bonus the Abbadon get (BS lvl V)+25 % Armor Resists, +25% Damage at the cost of 50% more Cap use of the weapon turrets.
I think i can live with that.
P.S.: My fitting: 8 MP II, 100 MN AB II, 3 eutectic cap recharger, 2 LAR II, DC, CPR , 3 active Hardener.
PPS: With lowered cap use on lasers they would be a viable weapon for the other races, something that is clearly NOT wanted. And since the cap of amarrian ships is bigger than the other a %ual increase favored amarr over the other ships.
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Drake Mezcal
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:10:00 -
[694]
Still waiting to scrap the Shield Boost bonus on the maelstrom,
ANything apart form that.....yuck
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:12:00 -
[695]
Well, there is just one slight but. You wasted 3 mid slots to cap chargers and all your rigging slots to cap rigs. And still will most likely shoot your cap dry with high damage crystal without repping. Great ship ;)
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:25:00 -
[696]
Edited by: murder one on 16/11/2006 20:28:05
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Zixxa I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails,
Ahh Okay, I guess that explains your total lack of any kind of clue expressed in pretty much every post you made. Never ever fired a gun in EVE yet, have we? Optimal, falloff, tracking, what IS that?!?! And of course DPS is the one and only meaningful variable in combat ever...
I am *** missile ALT. Pure missile ALT. Pure Caldari. And FYI, dude, dps is only meaningful variable in combat only for you. For fleet battle counted not dps, but alpha-strike. And with zero alpha-strike(missiles) I am zero in fleet battle. But with smaller gangs we are going for dps. And in terms of dps missile boats suck again.
Do what everyone else does and train something new.
Because I said so...
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:44:00 -
[697]
Originally by: Tuxford See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.
After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.
Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.
There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.
That is an over simplified example. The problem is that ship A (cap using weapons) runs out of cap before ship B (with non-cap using weapons). If you do an across the board cap increase and recharge time increase, then you have just boosted all the ship Bs. They now have more cap to use for tanks and other modules that ship A will not have, their increase is all going to the guns.
Please dont do this. A more targeted way is simply to increase the controlled bursts from 5% to 10%. Those that dont use cap based weapons are not helped or hurt, those that use cap based weapons get just enough to last that extra bit of time needed to have a chance of winning the fight.
If not, you may have increase cap so the ship A can now last 3 minutes but the Ship B also got the cap increase and will have cap to put into tanking, Ship B now lasts for 4 minutes. This does not Ship A, it just makes all the Ship B's that much stronger.
I am coming to the conclusion that Tux does not play the game. It is things like the HP boost and the Cap boost that seem to have had no though put into it and is impacting every ship DIFFERENTLY. The non-cap using races are get a great boost. Minnies and most Caldari ships now have much more cap to use for tanking or EW. All the hybrid and laser users are getting dumped on. All the new cap has to go into weapons.
So now we get increase HP and all non-laser/hybrid ships get a cap increase above what the laser/hybrid users are getting. Where is TomB to catch stuff like this and say "What the H#LL!"
Upping the Abaddons cap by 50% moves it from a total waste as a ship design to a wasted ship design.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:08:00 -
[698]
i disagree about controlled brusts...
they will boost even hybrids weapons that doesn't need any more boost
the real problem here is beams that use too much cap... rebalance beams and problem solved
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:00:00 -
[699]
There is no problem with cap using weapons or even beams. Problem is purely in abaddon and worst implementation of idea "tank or gank but not both" ever. At the moment it simply means that you can tank, but you can't shoot at all. If one starts to analyse this one would come to a conclution that amarrians have just one ship bonus to play with which means that you can't create tank or gank ships except by limiting number of lowslots and or powergrid. As tier 3 should be atleast as usefull as apoc which can either fit nice short range combat with massive tank or tachyons for long range and because amarrians don't need damage bonuses from ships you are trying to recreate apoc in different way.
This leads to couple of different choises on what to do with amarr.
i) change abaddon to something else without lasers
ii) give abaddon amarrian normal laser cap reduction bonus and keep it as laser boat (boosting cap so it can shoot with lasers would be just silly as it would get way too good at tanking)
iii) change lasers and amarrians in complete overhaul freeing up second bonus for something more fun
As kali is quite late in its development cyckle (atleast i hope so) doing total overhaul with amarrians would be best served at later bigger patch. Basically this leaves options to just change abaddon itself. Easiest solution would be to turn it into armoured tachyon platform by just changing rof bonus to -10% per cap use per level in my opinion. It shouldn't break balance too much as after all it would deal less damage. Also nice tank or gank type of setup could be gotten with 10% less cap need on reppers and lasers per level. Then there are other nice ideas of ew and drone boats. Anything is fine for most amarrian pilots, as long as it gets usefull.
Atm you need about 8 800 booster charges to other bs with short range crystals loaded. That means that you have "ammo" to kill 3 battleships, after that you need to refill your "ammo". This is without running any tanking mods. On long range sniping, you can't kill enemy battleship without running out of cap.
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Lobo Noturno
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:01:00 -
[700]
Ath,
Don't forget Gallentes also need cap for the mwd... Blasters are kinda contact weapons.
About the Rokh range bonus, it is quite powerful when considering rails. It means you can use higher dmg ammo at the same optimal as a non-boosted ship. Sure, it does a little bit less dps, but you can choose how to engage. For anyone that doesn't know, most fleet ops are long range battles, so the one, most important factor is RANGE.(optimal+locking) Damage bonuses, dps, or tankability mean very little on such battles. IF the battles were mid-close range, things would be much different.
Hyperion gets the cap it needs to work, now all we need is to make it better than the megathron, by a wider margin, when using blasters, without breaking something else...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:17:00 -
[701]
yes, but on the other hand ACs need to keep range to be competitive...
also is true that blasters consume cap, but do also more damage that (generally and if possible) translate in more cap used by the defender to heal it
so yup blasters use cap to fire but also require more cap to defend against
(made a post with an example in a thread cap boost for amarr and gallentem if you want i'll link)
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:44:00 -
[702]
Originally by: Lobo Noturno About the Rokh range bonus, it is quite powerful when considering rails.
Hmm. Where?
Originally by: Lobo Noturno It means you can use higher dmg ammo at the same optimal as a non-boosted ship.
Only t1. But t1 ammo sucks.
But we need Rokh nerf. Propose to change +10% optimal on +5% large hybrids falloff and +5% shield resistance on +5% missile kinetic damage --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.17 01:08:00 -
[703]
Sorry Zixxa, but falloff and kinetic missile dmg bonus would turn the Rokh into a even more powerful ship and always think about to keep Caldari vessels as PvM only!
I suggest to add 10%mining yield and 20% shield boost opti range to follow the exquisite line of bantam-osprey
Ironicism...noooo
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:24:00 -
[704]
Wow, I think I need to train projectiles, seeing as the Abaddon is totally gonna pwn with capless turrets. 50% more o0.:D
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Akiman
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:16:00 -
[705]
hyperion and megthron has the same mass...and how could we see agility of hyperion?...that ship looks cool but thats not worth it...or we are missing something...
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Akiman
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:12:00 -
[706]
Edited by: Akiman on 17/11/2006 10:14:36 My hyperion would be;
Base speed must be 135 m/sec (need speed, its a blaster ship)
Mass must be 100.000.000 kg
(if u fit a 1600 plate this will be equal to megathron...Fair enough...Maybe)
Must have agility...
(manuverability,transversal tracking,etc.)
75 m3 drone bay (-) , more speed 10 m/sec more total 145 m/sec (+)
(its a blaster ship,she doesnt want more drone bay she needs speed.Remove 25 m3 drone bay,add more bigger thrusters)
Decreased lock range 30 km (-) , increased scan resolution 150 (+)
Now you see i give a penalty for every boost for being fair.(mostly)
(its a blaster ship,thinking bout using it in fleet combat is out of concept and question, therefore more reduced locking range for increased locking time,you cant have a hit from 60km anyway)
(About the speed, you can say we get help from minmatar scientists and manufacturers...Like amarr get help from caldari)
Akiman
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Omatje
Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:18:00 -
[707]
Yesterday i tried to do some testing on the Maelstrom.
1st - I can't understand how people actually can test 1vs1's given the current status of things
2nd - I loaded up my 8x1400II's with Tremor, and i couldn't track a cruiser with 100 m/s transversal at a range of 195km ( I fitted a tracking computer and a tracking enhancer) When i showed info on the guns, i noticed my tracking was a whooping 0.004 rad/sec. That is even worse then the tracking of a Quad 3500 siege artillery (0,005625 rad/sec before skills)!!
T2 projectile ammo is really only usefull when some else can tripple web your target now, even the shortrange ammo.
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Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:28:00 -
[708]
Out of pure interest has anyone tryed to fit railguns and dual reps on it at the same time? Considering it basicly looks like an oversized brutix, I was wondering if it would make a half decent missioning ship for my gallente alt. ----
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:36:00 -
[709]
i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails)
but probably your problem was the distance
t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km
to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)
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Omatje
Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:42:00 -
[710]
Originally by: Ath Amon i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails)
but probably your problem was the distance
t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km
to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)
I wont matter if i fit 7 tracking mods (even if they wouldn't stack) i never will get back to a normal tracking with 5 extra tracking mods from 0.004 tracking.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:00:00 -
[711]
i know i know tracking is really bad, but for a cruiser so "slow" the main problem was the range...
to do decent damage at that distance and with such config you really need a rokh
you want the rokh
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Nostejio
Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:24:00 -
[712]
Edited by: Nostejio on 17/11/2006 11:29:30 has anyone tried boosting the amarr bs with a guardian?
will be back to check on this in 13 hrs or so
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:51:00 -
[713]
Originally by: ProphetGuru This may quite possibly be the most useless thread I have had the displeasure to read since beta.
It's disorganized and impossible to properly read without getting a headache. Their has been no dev interaction on ANY proposals here, and their have been a number of very good ones.
If we wanted another 21page ***** session with no feedback we coulda made it on our own to be honest.
These ships have not changed much since they hit test, and you are discussing a deployment in 1 week ffs. WTF is the point of us testing stuff if no compensations are made. 3 of the 4 ships in this post need to be tweaked. I would dare say 2 of the 4 approach uselessness.
QFT
What's the point of asking for feedback if CCP don't ever respond to it?
What's the point of asking for testing if nothing can change before release?
Why mock players who complain about "pre-Sisi" stats when "post-Sisi" is then too late for anything to be changed?
Either fix these broken ships before Kali, or pull them. Please. Or at the least tell us why you think they're not broken.
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.17 12:39:00 -
[714]
Originally by: Omatje
Originally by: Ath Amon i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails)
but probably your problem was the distance
t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km
to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)
I wont matter if i fit 7 tracking mods (even if they wouldn't stack) i never will get back to a normal tracking with 5 extra tracking mods from 0.004 tracking.
Hang on. If this is true - CCP has just made Minmitar an unplayable race. I mean; the Hurricane has been nerfed into third place; the Maelstrom will be unable to match it against the Rohk and the Tempest is now useless - outdamaged by the blasterthron close up and outranged by the railgun boats.
Oh, what am I thinking; I have the phoon!!!
Seriously; if these stories are true; then Kali is true the god of Destruction and the only Revelation is of the hypocrisy (we want to nerf range but we give a boat an optimal bonus) and the lack of thought (an active boost bonus on a fleet ship) by the game developers.
What race loses? Minmitar...even the reviled Vagabond is getting a speed nerf. So what's left of any use to fly?
The bit that leaves me bewildered is that Kali has been in development for MONTHS and only now we get to see the full horror of what's being wrought. I have always believed that you should never put bad judgement down to malice when it can be blamed on stupidity; so CCP answer me this; Are you simply malicious or foolish?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.17 14:11:00 -
[715]
Originally by: Nostejio Edited by: Nostejio on 17/11/2006 11:29:30 has anyone tried boosting the amarr bs with a guardian?
will be back to check on this in 13 hrs or so
Yes, your opponents just shoot the gaurdian, it explodes, then your abaddon is useless.
Why take an abaddon and a gaurdian when you can take two armageddons?
The range of a gaurdian is about 48 KM, not really enough to get outside sniping range reliably with an Abaddon at 200, not with Rohks around anyway.
Heck, Armageddons are easier to get into than logistics ships anyway.
Logistics ships are only really good under a few conditions.
1. You can get out of targeting range in a fleet
2. You sit at a safe spot and repair the passive shield or armor tanks of your fleet BS's so they dont have to fit reppers[and can fit extra plates/extenders instead].
That is is.
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Dano Sarum
Giants in the Playground Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 17:51:00 -
[716]
The rokh annoys me a lot really, Caldari cried they had no fleet ship so they get possibly THE longest range ship in the game now, so now we're gonna have T1 Sniper's at gates.
The Hyperion... well I'm not sure on this one, I can't really see how its better then a Mega tbh, it seems like its the same ship only the Megas dronebay is nicer.
The Abbadon is just a joke, but lets be honest so is the Apoc, I know you wanted to "tank or gank" but thats basicly what every ship Amarr allready has does, and they cant even gank now with the stacking penalty.
Lastly the Maelstorm... I can't see people using this over a tempest, tempy is just far superior.
The models are pretty but thats about it.
It's great being Amarr, aint it? |
PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.17 18:19:00 -
[717]
Just wanted to add my idea here about the cap problems of lasers and such also the cap problem of the abaddon.
Why not simply add something like the role bonus for weapons.
Add cap usage to launchers and projectil weapons.
Then add role bonuses to the ships for a specified weapon system which reduces the cap usage of that weapon to to 0. Like that every ship gets a bonus for the weapon system it was designed to and the skill related bonus could be used for something usefull at least.
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BugxEarl
Amarr Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.17 18:42:00 -
[718]
Edited by: BugxEarl on 17/11/2006 18:43:05 Has anyone calculated the fitting on the abaddon with Tachyon and 2 cap rigs?
In order to fit 8 Tachy II, you need 2 RCUII. Since fleet fitting naturally uses 3 HSII, what does the low-slot end up looking like? 3 HSII, 2RCUII, 1TEII, 1 slot left for roughly 300 grid worth of jack didly squat! Ok, this ain't so bad...but what exactly makes abaddon so special aside from the fact that its essentially an Apoc with 33% increase in firepower? (It literally is one in term of fleet...it cost 50% more and provide 33% more firepower for half the duration of Apoc).
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haq aan
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Posted - 2006.11.17 18:50:00 -
[719]
I really cannot understand the logic behind insisting maelstorm to be a fleet BS. Tempest is standing there waiting to fill that role.Neither minnies need one ,nor the ship model looks like one...It MUST be an AC boat with decent speed.
With Proj's alpha nerf, Hurricane nerf,..and incoming Vaga speed nerf ,..i really but really get tired of being Minmatar.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.17 19:52:00 -
[720]
problem is the rokh... the mael, with fixes at shield booster bonus and at arties, that atm are not balanced at all compared to rails, can be balanced against the caldari BS
the tempest can't, even if arties will be rebalanced to rails... it simply have not enought guns and uses 2 bonuses to do what mael do with just 1 bonus, also sensor range is inferior
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Deven Sunstorm
Security Forces Domain
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Posted - 2006.11.17 20:05:00 -
[721]
I am so sad and very disappointed. I was praying the Abbadon would be the answer to my Amarr battleship blues but alas, I've been let down once again. I see no reason to continue to play Amarr.
Deven Sunstorm ***Security Forces Domain -SecFo-
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.17 20:26:00 -
[722]
Originally by: BugxEarl Edited by: BugxEarl on 17/11/2006 18:43:05 Has anyone calculated the fitting on the abaddon with Tachyon and 2 cap rigs?
In order to fit 8 Tachy II, you need 2 RCUII. Since fleet fitting naturally uses 3 HSII, what does the low-slot end up looking like? 3 HSII, 2RCUII, 1TEII, 1 slot left for roughly 300 grid worth of jack didly squat! Ok, this ain't so bad...but what exactly makes abaddon so special aside from the fact that its essentially an Apoc with 33% increase in firepower? (It literally is one in term of fleet...it cost 50% more and provide 33% more firepower for half the duration of Apoc).
Not a fair comparison, Abaddon has more hp and 25% better all around resistance then the Apoc also.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.17 20:45:00 -
[723]
I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.
Suggestion: 1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!)
2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary.
3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)
4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk.
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Caledric
Amarr Spectral Armada Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.17 21:21:00 -
[724]
Originally by: Deven Sunstorm I am so sad and very disappointed. I was praying the Abbadon would be the answer to my Amarr battleship blues but alas, I've been let down once again. I see no reason to continue to play Amarr.
Only reasons I haven't given up on my Amarr is A) over a year worth of training put in, B) Curse and Pilgrim.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.17 22:28:00 -
[725]
Originally by: XFreedomX I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.
Suggestion:
3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)
The only problem is that Abaddon is not a better tanker than a geddon. The geddon can fit 7 Tachs, have 5 Heavy drones, and with skills, has 7 low slots left after it fits on EANM II to give it the same tanking as an Abaddon with more cap due to the 10% per level cap use bonus on the energy turrets.
The geddon has just as good or better gank and can have, with in 3-4 percent, just as good a max tank with a whole lot more cap left to do things, like fire weapons.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Tricit
Caldari Ganja Unlimited Serenity Fallen
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Posted - 2006.11.17 22:37:00 -
[726]
Originally by: XFreedomX I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.
Suggestion: 1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!)
2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary.
3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)
4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk.
So you're saying the Abbadon should be limited to small gank squads and pretty much nothing else?
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.17 22:48:00 -
[727]
Originally by: XFreedomX I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.
Suggestion: 1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!)
2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary.
3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)
4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk.
lol so if i understand right the rokh is balanced because not many caldari pilots have rails...
and because other ships are so crap that they will be not called as primary...
very nice balancing parameters...
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Mastin Dragonfly
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.18 00:11:00 -
[728]
Originally by: XFreedomX 3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)
Of course, you SHOULD put autocannons on a ship with an energy turrets bonus to make it work, it's so logical.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD
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Posted - 2006.11.18 00:20:00 -
[729]
While looking at the Rokh, i feel fortunate i don't use Raven's anymore... pure ccp sillyness, give the Tier3 Caldari BS an uber shieldtank and rails so the entire caldari BS user group will switch to railgun training
also...
WHEEEEEEE LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!! i can snipe AND tank at the same time...
Anyways now gonna fly the **** ships, see what thats like Resized tag... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp :p
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.18 00:34:00 -
[730]
From the response I am getting, you are all still thinking of only the ship you care about. Lets go over it again.
Rohk: You all think its the best because sniping is HOT. Everyone wants one. But so what, only one can be the best and right now it looks this is it. DonÆt worry about the shield resist bonus, its not gonna be a factor from 240km out. And if they get close enough, no amount of resist will help.
Hyperion: Sniping Mega player will be flying the Rohk, so the short range blaster boat is the only role for this ship. Looks good for that role.
Maelstrum: IÆd personally like to see the shield boost bonus replaced, but its not like this is a gimp bonus like some of you are saying. It is just not HOT like the range bonus.
Abaddon: There is no such thing as Tank and Gank. You Amarr pilot canÆt have both. Fact of the matter is you have to chose one or the other. This ship is good enough to which ever one you want. Count yourselves lucky. (Oh by the way, it is way better then the geddon, 25% resist, higher HP, CAP. DonÆt believe me, come on the test server and I will show you how it will own a geddon)
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.18 00:52:00 -
[731]
Originally by: XFreedomX From the response I am getting, you are all still thinking of only the ship you care about. Lets go over it again.
Rohk: You all think its the best because sniping is HOT. Everyone wants one. But so what, only one can be the best and right now it looks this is it. DonÆt worry about the shield resist bonus, its not gonna be a factor from 240km out. And if they get close enough, no amount of resist will help.
Hyperion: Sniping Mega player will be flying the Rohk, so the short range blaster boat is the only role for this ship. Looks good for that role.
Maelstrum: IÆd personally like to see the shield boost bonus replaced, but its not like this is a gimp bonus like some of you are saying. It is just not HOT like the range bonus.
Abaddon: There is no such thing as Tank and Gank. You Amarr pilot canÆt have both. Fact of the matter is you have to chose one or the other. This ship is good enough to which ever one you want. Count yourselves lucky. (Oh by the way, it is way better then the geddon, 25% resist, higher HP, CAP. DonÆt believe me, come on the test server and I will show you how it will own a geddon)
Placing an ACTIVE bonus obn a fleet ship is ill conceived due to lag and the fact that once you're called primary- you're dead, all you can do is warp out. The Rohk offer resistances which is far superior in that you can accept more damage as you align to warp out (if not already). The Maelstrom concept in this regard is ill conceived and this, I believe has been acknowledged by CCP. As Minmitar allways get the shaft, we don't expect this to change, despite how inappropriate and how many realistic suggestions we offer for alternatives.
AS for range. Well think of it this way; being a fleet ship sucks when you cannot hit the enemy with your uber leet t2 weapons (195km) due to tracking nerfs and range nerfs and the (I win) can inflict damage (however limited) Rohk can hurt you from 230km.
The irony is CCP TALKS about range nerfs YET introduces a new ship with a RANGE BONUS, calling it a fleet ship. Can you smell the bull****?
If the Rohk is not overpowered; the Maelstrom is massively underpowered. And CCP knows this and REFUSES to comment on the grounds that they know their player base is right but its too embarrassing to admit.
That's why I am so frustrated and annoyed with CCP. To make a mistake is human, to put your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it and fix it is stupidity.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD
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Posted - 2006.11.18 00:53:00 -
[732]
meh, a main caldari ship with rails as its primary weapons is an abomination and nothing more, i couldn't care less if they gave it 10 railgun boni... now caldari BS pilots will have to make a choice, stick with missiles even though they know that there is a caldari BS outthere with a much better tank, or drop all those hard trained missile skills and work on your pathetic railgun skills.
My guess a lot of pilots will do the later still, cuz they want the uber shieldtank for missions.
But ok, enough ranting for now... i haven't even flown the **** thing yet so mebbe i shouldn't be so judgemental... (trying to get to the station where i bought both the rokh and the Drake so i can test them out)
(OT: 1 in queue.. and after a while my ship started orbitting the gate automatically... WTH? is that a new feature also?) Resized tag... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp :p
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.18 01:09:00 -
[733]
Well, like I said Rohk is now the sniper of choice. Minni pilots will have to adjust to that, no question. As far as the resist bonus over the active, that is a fact, you are right. However, given the role of a sniper, you will not be tanking so its a moot point, you are called primary you die. Its not like the Rohk pilot will be putting shield hardner and booster on it... that would be funny... so effectively with the resist bonus you have about 30% extra shield hp to go though. Like I said, no big deal.
What can us Minni pilot do? I say, put your AC on the Abaddon and tank that baby up. I've not fly a tanked ship so looking forward to it. 4 AC 2 smart bomb, 2 hvy nos, mwd, webber, scram, sensorbooster, and a kick ass armor tank ftw!
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 02:59:00 -
[734]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 18/11/2006 03:02:07
Originally by: XFreedomX From the response I am getting, you are all still thinking of only the ship you care about. Lets go over it again.
Abaddon: There is no such thing as Tank and Gank. You Amarr pilot canÆt have both. Fact of the matter is you have to chose one or the other. This ship is good enough to which ever one you want. Count yourselves lucky. (Oh by the way, it is way better then the geddon, 25% resist, higher HP, CAP. DonÆt believe me, come on the test server and I will show you how it will own a geddon)
All you seem to post is how good the Abaddon is when nearly anyone who actually flys Amarr ships have laid out many times this ships short comings.
Yeah it can gank but it will drain the cap, and that with dual injector and a full load of charges in the cargo bay with 2 minutes. That is at very long range where it does 14 percent more damage than a geddon for 2 minutes, but after that the geddon can still fire and the abaddon is flying away to get cap back and another full load of injector charges. The geddon is just better.
At close range the geddon owns the Abaddon with 7 turrets, 5 heavy drones, 8 lows and better cap usage.
Max tank for all three ships end up being within 3-4 percent of each other. Abaddon may be the best as a per tank percent wise, but not enough to win a fight with an Apoc. The Apoc will have nearly the same tank, will have the same drones, and will have nearly twice the cap so that it can tank and fire forever. Once again the abaddon runs out of cap if it trys to tanks and fire weapons, not ganking weapons, just weapons.
Abaddon is not better at either roll than the geddon or apoc so asking for a change that actully feels an Amarr ship class need is not unreasonable. As it is, the abaddon is going to be a wasted ship design that will see little use.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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BugxEarl
Amarr Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.18 03:12:00 -
[735]
xFreedomx, I don't intend to flame but you seem to be rather clueless as to how PvP works. If someone wants to use an autocannon and roam around in a tanked Abaddon, everyone might as well do the same on a blaster Rohk or AC Maelstrom; there is nothing Abaddon offers over Maelstrom in mounting an AC. No, it does NOT have a 'better' tank. PvP tank is the amount of damage ship can soak up before its dead or incapacitated, and with an AC it'll die before it kills the enemy. If you are going to make a point, please go test your statement BEFORE presenting it to us; its no better than a flame if you do not (however good intentions you may have).
Anyways, back to the point. Abaddon sacrifices its low-slot in order to get enough grid for cap use reduction rig. For close-range setup, it must sacrifice either a LARII or satify itself with rather pathetic 15% cap usage reduction (Can only mount single weapon rig due to grid problem). Since it cannot mount a plate like Apoc can in a fleet setup, long range setup does not get much of a better tank.
My solution?
If (now this is a big IF) Abaddon's bonus get adjusted to damage bonus per level (roughly 8~% overall damage reduction), energy weapon cap usage reduction rig should be changed to 25% reduction in cap usage. Close range, it'll still have less run-time than a geddon. At long range, you either must sacrifice some load of armor buffer for longer run-time, or can go for damage rig and get the best dps an Amarr sniper's got to offer. I think its a fair trade-off since it doesn't really make the ship more powerful since it'll still have cap problem.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 03:15:00 -
[736]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
The only problem is that Abaddon is not a better tanker than a geddon. The geddon can fit 7 Tachs, have 5 Heavy drones, and with skills, has 7 low slots left after it fits on EANM II to give it the same tanking as an Abaddon with more cap due to the 10% per level cap use bonus on the energy turrets.
The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2006.11.18 04:15:00 -
[737]
Originally by: Nifel The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.
And the abaddon needs to fit about 4-5 cap recharge modules to sustain fire.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.18 04:43:00 -
[738]
1) If you had read my earlier post, you'd have seen that my proposed solution to Abaddon's "problem" is to reduce the beam weapon's cap draw. I also stated above that with Abaddon, you need to choose weather you want to gank or tank, not both.
2) I will let others decide weather your geddan with 7 tachyon will win against the Auto Cannon configured Abaddon with the nos and the smart bomb at close range.
3) As for the Abaddon and Apoc have nearly the same tank... well, lets see both have 7 low slot but Abaddon has 25% resistance better then Apoc, seems like a 25% better tank to me. Please post your number for coming up with 3-4% of each other. (Oh, btw the difference between 80% resist and 75% resist is 25% reduction in damage)
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.18 04:43:00 -
[739]
correction 20% reduction.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 04:47:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nifel The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.
And the abaddon needs to fit about 4-5 cap recharge modules to sustain fire.
Easy on the trigger-finger. All I did was point out that you have in fact 6 lowslots left after fitting 7x tach2's on the geddon. This "discussion" brings absolutely nothing to the table. It's degenerated into finger pointing and head-bashing.
"ZOMG YOU CAN FIT AN EANMII ON THE GEDDON AND HAVE TEH SAME RESIST BONUS AS THE ABADDON!!!1"
Yeah? And what about the rest of the fittings. What about the entire scale? Skirmish to fleet battles? At what point does it break down? What could be done about it. This means leaving out complete reshapes of the ship. Aint gonna happen in the small time it's left before Kali is deployed (yay... go CCP... not).
Still think the Abaddon should have enough pg to put on 8x tach2 without fitting mods, 10% hp & 5% res and enough cap to fire the tachs for 3-4 minutes straight. Would make a valuable fleet ship, good buffer tank and possibly a good pulse/tank boat depending on just how much cap it'd be given.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 06:26:00 -
[741]
Originally by: Nifel Yeah? And what about the rest of the fittings.
But that is the whole point. Yes, a geddon need 2 RCUs to fit 7 tachs.
But an aba needs 1 RCU for 8 tach2, too. And 2 cap injectors to keep them firing for over 1 minute. Add 1 EAN2 to the geddon and both ships have exactly the same number of free slots.
Quote: Still think the Abaddon should have enough pg to put on 8x tach2 without fitting mods, 10% hp & 5% res and enough cap to fire the tachs for 3-4 minutes straight. Would make a valuable fleet ship, good buffer tank and possibly a good pulse/tank boat depending on just how much cap it'd be given.
Yes, like that it would be a valuable fleet ship. Would need 24-25k grid for that though. And, of cource, there is then still the question if amarr really need *another* fleet ship or what exactly the apoc is then for.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
|
Posted - 2006.11.18 09:28:00 -
[742]
still no changes to the battleships?
if these go live like that there'll be a ****storm coming from 3 outta 4 races
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 10:07:00 -
[743]
Originally by: Aramendel And, of cource, there is then still the question if amarr really need *another* fleet ship or what exactly the apoc is then for.
*shrug*
Some amarr (*cough* the whiners *cough*) has been complaining about the apoc for some time now. Change that instead? Once the 3rd 'special something' has been figured out for amarr that is. The only thing the apoc has going for it now that's unique to it is the ability to fire 8x tach2 (good alpha strike and good dps) for a very long time. Not breathtaking, but not half as bad as most people make it out to be either.
What I can see though is that this rush of getting something different, something new... *anything* has blinded many people. Chances are they'll shoot themselves in the foot trying to get that.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:21:00 -
[744]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Tiuwaz still no changes to the battleships?
if these go live like that there'll be a ****storm coming from 3 outta 4 races
Im too exhausted from having complained since the preliminary stats showed up. CCP have had months to change them, but didn't. I dont think they think there is anything wrong with them. In a way, I kind of agree. They arent better than the previous ships and they arent worse either. They are just very... unexciting.
after months of no change i dont think aswell that there'll be any change till Kali hits, i am probably also past caring besides the occasional outburst
i have my setups rdy with which i can get some nice results, but it honestly feels like swimming against the stream to what they seem to have been intended for
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Kaden Seer
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.18 14:58:00 -
[745]
over nerfed ships? plz no <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> More drone bay for Myrmidon!!! |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 15:51:00 -
[746]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 15:52:12 here is how Kaylana would fix the new Tier 3 BSs
-------- Rohk --------
Leave it as it is
-------- Abaddon -------- - 2 turret slot + 4 missile slots + 1 mid 600 TF 20000 MW 175 m3 Drone bay
10% turret disruptor optimal range per level 5% armor resistance per level
-------- Hyperion --------
- 2 turrets + 4 missile slots - 1 low + 2 mid 83km lock range 150 m3 drone bay
10% remote sensor booster optimal range per level 5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level
--------- Maelstrom ---------
10% Shield Hitpoints per level 5% Large Projectiles damage per level
And there you have it. The most exciting thing you could do for all the Tier 3 BS. So what if the Hyperion isn't godly blasterboat! I'll use all 4 of these ships in equal measure that is for sure. Everyone gets something different.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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O Olho
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:02:00 -
[747]
Edited by: O Olho on 18/11/2006 16:02:47
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 15:52:12 here is how Kaylana would fix the new Tier 3 BSs
-------- Rohk --------
Leave it as it is
-------- Abaddon -------- - 2 turret slot + 4 missile slots + 1 mid 600 TF 20000 MW 175 m3 Drone bay
10% turret disruptor optimal range per level 5% armor resistance per level
-------- Hyperion --------
- 2 turrets + 4 missile slots - 1 low + 2 mid 83km lock range 150 m3 drone bay
10% remote sensor booster optimal range per level 5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level
--------- Maelstrom ---------
10% Shield Hitpoints per level 5% Large Projectiles damage per level
And there you have it. The most exciting thing you could do for all the Tier 3 BS. So what if the Hyperion isn't godly blasterboat! I'll use all 4 of these ships in equal measure that is for sure. Everyone gets something different.
Well that makes the Abaddon and Hyperion a little "Typhoonie" but I like it. My only suggestion would be to make the Ewar bonuses "+range AND +str" so they are a bit more potent. Range without strength leaves em lacking. And they need to reach 250km plz.
And the Maelstrom is pretty much a no-brianer fix.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:12:00 -
[748]
Kaylana Syi, I approve. I'd have the Hyperion a dampener efficiency bonus instead of a range bonus. A range bonus only increases optimal to about 45km at most, while an efficiency bonus might mean that you'll need one less dampener on a target. - EVE is sick. |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:23:00 -
[749]
Edited by: Aramendel on 18/11/2006 16:26:50 The scorp (and BB) has a 20% range boost/lvl, not 10%. Were the gal & amarr ECM BSs intentionally given weaker boni than caldari due to the higher amount of HPs, etc?
Also, I would give the aba rather -2 highs and +2 mids (and reduced grid). An utility BS with only 5 meds is a bit low. Yes, it's amarr, but that would still be 1 less than gallente and 2 less than caldari.
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Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:33:00 -
[750]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi stuff
Looks nice. Although I believe Hyperion would be better as:
10% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level 5% remote sensor dampner strength per level
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:38:00 -
[751]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
--------- Maelstrom ---------
10% Shield Hitpoints per level 5% Large Projectiles damage per level
as long as arty will be so crap compared to rails even with these bonuses the mael will be useless in fleet...
its dps will be equal if not inferior to the rokh at all range and it still it will not be able to hit past 200km
also generally i prefer the rof bonus... even with dmg bonuses the hp boost will made the mael worse than the old pest alpha strike, so for me a rof bonus is always better :P
first problem of minnie long range ship atm is artillery that is hugely underpowered, not the ship bonuses themselves
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Ionstream
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:52:00 -
[752]
Abaddon -------- 7 turret hardpoints 2 missile hardpoints 8 high 4 mid 8 low 600 TF 22000 MW 75 m3 Drone bay
10% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level 15% cap reduction to weapon cap usage per level
give it the cap of an apoc or slightly higher with the same recharge rate.
[proper fleet ship, can fit tachyons and actually run them and it can use the amarr canon ewar or choice.]
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:08:00 -
[753]
Ihar Enda, a dampener range bonus would be absolutely necessary to be a lot higher than 10% per level to be effective. Even with 20% per level it will still come short 60km of a Scorpion. Dampener range as it is right now (30km+60km) is more than enough as long as it is fitted on a ship that otherwise do not lack punch-power.
While I strongly oppose the nanve notion that cost will balance things out, double cost do merit a small advantage compared to, say, the Scorpion in that the Hyperion would also have punch-power in slightly greater quantity than the Scorpion - if the Hyperion were to be a dampener ship. What I'm saying is that the damage bonus should not be removed, although perhaps not rival the Megathron as such.
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
--------- Maelstrom ---------
10% Shield Hitpoints per level 5% Large Projectiles damage per level
as long as arty will be so crap compared to rails even with these bonuses the mael will be useless in fleet...
its dps will be equal if not inferior to the rokh at all range and it still it will not be able to hit past 200km
also generally i prefer the rof bonus... even with dmg bonuses the hp boost will made the mael worse than the old pest alpha strike, so for me a rof bonus is always better :P
first problem of minnie long range ship atm is artillery that is hugely underpowered, not the ship bonuses themselves
In order to maintain the Tempest's current relative alpha strike you need damage bonuses (not rate of fire, mind) to make 11.25 turrets. A Maelstrom would have alpha strike of 10 turrets with a damage bonus.
This would mean that Minmatar retained 89% of it's alpha strike (against T1 ships, against T2 ships the Maelstrom would actually do 107% of the Tempest's current percentual alpha strike) for it's main fleet battleship. Now, that might not be quite enough for a Real Scary Fleet ShipÖ, but it might just be enough to offset and challenge the Rokh for a different kind of fleet.
Someone needs to do a graph showing how many salvoes it takes before the Rokh out-damages the Maelstrom (with a damage bonus). I'm quite certain that if the Maelstrom gets to shoot two salvoes before the Rokh catches up, the Maelstrom might get a nice little niche as the elite's choice for fleet ship. (The Rokh will allow for T1 participation on ranges otherwise reserved for T2 if the fleet's commander has alpha-strike preferences) - EVE is sick. |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.11.18 18:36:00 -
[754]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
-------- Abaddon -------- - 2 turret slot + 4 missile slots + 1 mid 600 TF 20000 MW 175 m3 Drone bay
10% turret disruptor optimal range per level 5% armor resistance per level
Yes, please.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:15:00 -
[755]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 19:27:14 here the cumulative damage of +dmg mael vs rokh
the dps of the 2 ships is veeeeeery similar, with the mael that tend do "degrade" a bit at various reloads
10 min graph1
26 secs graph2
as you see the alpha advantage is not that huge and the 2 damages are quite balanced...
what throw away that balance are the 50km of higher optimal range that makes the alpha and dps of mael pointless as it will not be able to hit its enemy...
this is mostly because rails have pratically an "inbuilt bonus" in their stats with higher base dps and higher range...
some posts ago i linked a comparsion between arty and rails... the real problem is there, as long as the 2 weapons will be umbalanced so will be also the ships
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:01:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Ath Amon
this is mostly because rails have pratically an "inbuilt bonus" in their stats
Also might have something to do with that extra damage mod you threw in there..
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:10:00 -
[757]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 20:10:44 extra damage is in because i tend to compare rokh with 4dmg/1track vs mael with 3dmg/3track
so actually the rokh is also saving a module over the mael...
and adding... the comparsion i was referring is whitout taking in account any dmg module or ship bonuses
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.19 06:32:00 -
[758]
OK, I will probably not be the first one to say it here, but...
I just saw a Rokh tank 3 hyperions (no drones) at 98% shield permanently until they got bored/ran out of ammo.
kthx :/
Click |
Buster Terrik
Warhamsters Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:32:00 -
[759]
Quote: -------- Hyperion --------
- 2 turrets + 4 missile slots - 1 low + 2 mid 83km lock range 150 m3 drone bay
10% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level 5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level
love the idea, althrough 10% optimal per lvl isnt enough. I mean, if it supposed to be fleet EW ship, it should be able to do EW on fleet distances, i.e. 140-180km. with 10% per lvl and maxed skills it will have only 67.5km opt and 90km faloff for sensor dampeners, i.e 157km max... it need at least 20% sensor dampener optimal per lvl, preferally 25% (well, someone can say it can be overpowered). At least this kind of ship will be _useful_ for gallente pilots, as in current state its just cool-looking useless expensive toy. ------- When i fly, in my mind I get away just in time. I'll wait the wait, fly away... I only want it for today. |
Hohenheim OfLight
Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:14:00 -
[760]
I would like to be able to fit the malstrom like this all the time,
8 turrets
I am quit sure how ever its some sort of bug ----------------------------------------------
Gone but not forgotten
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:39:00 -
[761]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 16:01:54 here is how Kaylana would fix the new Tier 3 BSs
-------- Rohk --------
Leave it as it is
-------- Abaddon -------- - 2 turret slot + 4 missile slots + 1 mid 600 TF 20000 MW 175 m3 Drone bay
10% turret disruptor optimal range per level 5% armor resistance per level
-------- Hyperion --------
- 2 turrets + 4 missile slots - 1 low + 2 mid 83km lock range 150 m3 drone bay
10% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level 5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level
--------- Maelstrom ---------
10% Shield Hitpoints per level 5% Large Projectiles damage per level
And there you have it. The most exciting thing you could do for all the Tier 3 BS. So what if the Hyperion isn't godly blasterboat! I'll use all 4 of these ships in equal measure that is for sure. Everyone gets something different.
This is the sort of think I would like for the new battleships. Personal I think some of the problems with the new battleships is that their tier 3, these ships would be great if they were tier 1 or 2 and have the same tier cost.
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Sophie Malaster
Gallente 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:11:00 -
[762]
The gallente use, at fist time, drones, you should add more drone bay to the hyperion, it's a great bs but only 4heavy drone for a gallente bs it's a damage again gallentes.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:13:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Abaddon -------- - 2 turret slot + 4 missile slots + 1 mid 600 TF 20000 MW 175 m3 Drone bay
10% turret disruptor optimal range per level 5% armor resistance per level
- 10% optimal is too weak to actually reach sniper range. the caldari ew range bonuses are always for 20% per level and ecm already starts out with a better optimal range (well at least the racials do).
- if you dont give a real bonus to lasers add some more launcher hardpoints. otherwise we just end up with another projectile boat.
- why should amarrian and gallente tier3 bs get one more slot than minmatar and caldari?
other than that is a lot better than what tux came up with. i would still prefer a big arbitrator with 20% td optimal range and 10% drone dmg/hp.
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Spikum
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:24:00 -
[764]
Edited by: Spikum on 19/11/2006 16:25:05 In my opinion the Hyperion needs more powergrid and less CPU like -30 CPU and +1000 PG.
It was a pain to fith 7 Neutrons on a Mega and now you have 8 turretpoints but still you have problems with only 7 neutrons.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:29:00 -
[765]
Having the possibility to fit 8 turrets doesnt mean to be able to fit the strongest version of a weapon type.
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Ratzap
Gallente Old Farts
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:46:00 -
[766]
Hyperion - for something that's supposed to be a blaster machine, it's extremely disappointing. 6 lows is bad enough but then the low PG means you have to fit ions/electrons and forget NoS unless you want to drop a turret. This ship needs another low and/or more PG. Nice graphic on it now but shame its crud ;) But then, CCP have a habit of misleading info texts on things eh.
Rokh is too good as is TBH, it can fit fill rack of 425s, good tank and only needs 2 PDS2 to do it (which it can easily spare since it doesn't need lows to tank).
Ratzap
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:15:00 -
[767]
all the ewar bunuses i stated are now at 20%
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:38:00 -
[768]
Edited by: Soulita on 20/11/2006 01:50:39 Edited by: Soulita on 20/11/2006 01:41:02
Originally by: Ratzap Hyperion - for something that's supposed to be a blaster machine, it's extremely disappointing. 6 lows is bad enough but then the low PG means you have to fit ions/electrons and forget NoS unless you want to drop a turret....
I dont know if I understand you right - you mean you cant fit nos when you have ions, for example, in the other highs?
I have no problems fitting 2 or 3 nos and the rest ions on it.
Was some trying out finding a good setup for it, but once i did I must admit I like this boat. Only thing I dont like about it is the high mass and low base speed.
Still, the rokh seems better yet. That boat realy kicks.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:10:00 -
[769]
I just saw something very interesting in the sell forums.
Someone is taking pre-orders for BPCs of all teir 3 BS - 30 of each.
Amarr - Abaddon - 8 ordered
Caldari - Rokh - 30 ordered - sold out
Gallante - Hyperion - 20 ordered
Minimatar - Maelstrom - 7 ordered
It's a relatively small sample set, but shows very clearly that people like the rokh, thing the hyperion is worth a try, and that both the abaddon and maelstrom need a lot of work.
Zarch AlDain
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:17:00 -
[770]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain I just saw something very interesting in the sell forums.
Someone is taking pre-orders for BPCs of all teir 3 BS - 30 of each.
Amarr - Abaddon - 8 ordered
Caldari - Rokh - 30 ordered - sold out
Gallante - Hyperion - 20 ordered
Minimatar - Maelstrom - 7 ordered
It's a relatively small sample set, but shows very clearly that people like the rokh, thing the hyperion is worth a try, and that both the abaddon and maelstrom need a lot of work.
The market has spoken.....this is consistent with the comments found in this forum. So much for game balance; let's hope this gets fixed before the Kali code freeze. On the other hand - look at the phoon and weep.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.20 12:38:00 -
[771]
Originally by: Gragnor
The market has spoken.....this is consistent with the comments found in this forum. So much for game balance; let's hope this gets fixed before the Kali code freeze. On the other hand - look at the phoon and weep.
I actually think this is more consistent with the number of players flying each race rather than balance. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.11.20 12:41:00 -
[772]
That market sample is extremely biased towards the amount of pilots actually able to fly the ships.
I certainly share some of the sentiments of this thread about the screwed balance between then, but this market sample says nothing.
If 50% of the players would have trained Minmatar cos they were so easy to use and omgwtfown in missions and they already had a Matari character anyway it would have been the Maelstrom being sold out.
Of course in reality we need to replace Minmatar with Caldari and we get the results as they are.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.20 13:40:00 -
[773]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
If 50% of the players would have trained Minmatar cos they were so easy to use and omgwtfown in missions and they already had a Matari character anyway it would have been the Maelstrom being sold out.
Of course in reality we need to replace Minmatar with Caldari and we get the results as they are.
As far as I'm aware there are many people that can fly Caldari Ships because the Raven is simply the most flown mission ship, but as often stated they have trained for missiles and not for hybrid weapons. With that in mind I think it really shows how good the rokh is compared to the other tier3 battleships as there are already so many orders even if that means the people that can fly caldari ships have to learn a whole new skill set to use the Rokh.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.20 14:27:00 -
[774]
Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.
If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.
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PSEWAR
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.20 14:50:00 -
[775]
My reply about the skilltime/set was just to highlight that the people that ordered the Hyperion/Maelstrom/Abaddon already have to skills to fly them as they are nearly the same as the existant ships they already can fly and do not need new skills. Contrary to the Rokh, which still get more orders then the other three ships combined.
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 14:58:00 -
[776]
The Abaddon new bonus are
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.
It's far more cap stable now.
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Caya
Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.20 15:07:00 -
[777]
Edited by: Caya on 20/11/2006 15:09:49
Originally by: voidvim The Abaddon new bonus are
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.
It's far more cap stable now.
Was just about to comment that. Good news, exactly the thing iv been dreaming for since i tried Abb for the first time. Now just the last little thing, change its description and it will be fine ship.
PS. oh and seems like the bonus is not applied yet... bugged?
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 15:17:00 -
[778]
Edited by: voidvim on 20/11/2006 15:24:02
Originally by: Caya
Originally by: voidvim The Abaddon new bonus are
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.
It's far more cap stable now.
Was just about to comment that. Good news, exactly the thing iv been dreaming for since i tried Abb for the first time. Now just the last little thing, change its description and it will be fine ship.
It's like the Harbinger quit good at doing the whole armour and laser thing, my 8 tachyon with multifrqunecey and large T2 repaier still run the cap dry even with 4 t2 cap rechargers.
time for some rigging I think
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 15:40:00 -
[779]
Anyone care to do an alpha strike comparison between Abaddon w/ tachyons and a tempest or maelstrom with artillery?
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 15:49:00 -
[780]
Originally by: Forsch Anyone care to do an alpha strike comparison between Abaddon w/ tachyons and a tempest or maelstrom with artillery?
The Abaddon would win in that comparison by a slim margin. However, alpha strike no longer matter as it does on TQ - you can say that alpha strike difference is 33% lower in significance with Kali, or that it needs to be 50% higher in order to notice a difference. - EVE is sick. |
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.20 16:11:00 -
[781]
Originally by: voidvim The Abaddon new bonus are
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.
It's far more cap stable now.
so it stays a design failure then. nothing more than a better version of the already existing amarrian battleships.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 16:23:00 -
[782]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux That market sample is extremely biased towards the amount of pilots actually able to fly the ships.
No, it's not. The Rokh will be thebattleship to use in fleets as no other battleships will be able to shoot as far as it. Get ready for the new era of Rokh fleet battles, and anyone flying anything else will be considered "support".
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 16:51:00 -
[783]
Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux That market sample is extremely biased towards the amount of pilots actually able to fly the ships.
No, it's not. The Rokh will be thebattleship to use in fleets as no other battleships will be able to shoot as far as it. Get ready for the new era of Rokh fleet battles, and anyone flying anything else will be considered "support".
Give all tier 3 battleships a opitmal bonu might be a idea. with 3 optimal rigs + tracking computers most battleships reach the same sort of range, but the the rorh would have damage or rof rigs
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.20 17:14:00 -
[784]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 20/11/2006 17:14:13 nope rigs stack with modules so you can't gain much range from them
even giving to mael something like +rof +optimal will make it quite inferior to the rokh as the damage will be maybe balanced but the caldari ship will have way better tanking
will never be tired to say... problem is not in mael itself but in weapons...
arty is total crap compared to rail...
425mm do around 20-25% more dps than 1400mm and at 1400mm best damage it have around 30% more range... on top of that it have better tracking and fitting... (no mods or bonuses considered, just long range t2 ammo)
and for sure cap is not a big issue for a railboat in fleet
as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
if arty will get, for example, a 40-50% optimal range boost both "base weapon" and ships (mael vs rokh) will be quite balanced... (of course mael should have shield boost bonus converted in passive shield hp bonus)
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BlackHorizon
Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 17:52:00 -
[785]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 20/11/2006 17:56:21 Yup, the abaddon is still a ship without a purpose. Okay, it's got some alpha strike now going for it. But it's still outdamaged at close range(drones) and outsustained by the Armageddon which is 1/3 the third cost. At long range, the difference between the Abaddon and Armageddon is negligible (9.333 guns versus 10 guns).
The Armageddon will remain the fleet BS of choice because of cost -- insurance alone on the Abaddon is 54M. For high sustainbility (eg. POS warfare, PvE) the Apoc is better. And if you want to tank, you're better off fitting projectiles instead of lasers.
However, all his talk about a fleet amarrian BS is now irrelevant really with the Rokh. With the T2 long range ammo nerf and the subpar range of beams, an amarrian BS will have a hard time competing in ranges above 170 km. There is no fleet ship now other than the rokh.
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Kaden Seer
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.20 18:02:00 -
[786]
Edited by: Kaden Seer on 20/11/2006 18:15:33
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne so it stays a design failure then.
Yeah. I'm gonna stick to the current ships, because these new ones are a waste of time <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> More drone bay for Myrmidon!!! |
Wheya
Amarr Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2006.11.20 18:46:00 -
[787]
Originally by: voidvim The Abaddon new bonus are
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.
It's far more cap stable now.
This change is a nerf but not a boost. 5%RoF > 5%dmg. The Abaddon wasn't in need of a nerf.
It might be more cap stable now but it will also take more time to kill an opponent which is bad for your cap. The only chance an Abaddon had in theory (it did not worked) to win against another battleship was to do significant more damage while using plates instead of repairers. With the potential doing damage being nerfed, now active tanking with dual repairers, using projectile weapons and NOS becomes the best option for the Abaddon.
As long as devs try to make the Abaddon a laser using and armor tanking ship as long the Abaddon will have problems to find its role beside Apoc and Arma. It should do either significantly more damage than an Armageddon (which is not true neither with a RoF bonus and for sure not with a damage bonus) or it should be able to tank a lot better than the Apoc while still doing at least decent damage with lasers (which is also not true because the Apoc has significant more cap for tanking with its 2 cap bonuses for lasers and capacitor size. A 25% armor resistance bonus can't competete with this 2 bonusses: 2 reppers > 1 repper + 25% resistance).
I can see 4 options 1) make Abaddon a missile boat. That's what I prefer. 2) make it a drone boat 3) try 7.5 - 10% RoF bonus. (Yes, I know how fast it drains cap). Then we have the old gankageddon problem, though. 4) make Abaddon a significant better tanker than Apoc. The resistance bonus is a good start but it lacks the cap for repairers. I fail to see a solution for the cap problem if it should be able to competete with the Apoc in tanking. 10% boost for capacitor size instead of the Apocs 5%?
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 19:19:00 -
[788]
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.
Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 19:45:00 -
[789]
Originally by: Tribunal The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.
Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.
Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.
The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo. - EVE is sick. |
Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 19:49:00 -
[790]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.
Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.
Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.
The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.
Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.11.20 20:22:00 -
[791]
Was this thread mostly useless. Lots of good ideas in here, but not a single thing from the devs.
Most of the ships, save the Rockh dont seem much different then other BS. This has been pointed out since pg. 1.
The only new thing done is to make the Amarr BS just a bigger version of their other two ships.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 22:54:00 -
[792]
Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.
Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.
Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.
The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.
Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.
Well, except that the Rokh's concept is (easy) sniping/fleet. While we have a lot which aren't really meant for fleet combat: Megathron (close combat), Dominix (even more confined to CC), Hyperion (CC), Raven (nill to mid range), Typhoon (many needles and all that), Tempest (sort of an all-rounder), Armageddon (mid range), Apoc (tanking - alright, it doesn't do it great). Then we have those meant for fleet: Scorpion (EWar, and does it good), Maelstrom, and Abaddon.
Let's talk Abaddon and Maelstrom. Well, the Abaddon might not be specifically meant for fleet, but it's the only place it's got the cap to perform. The Maelstrom is lacking in execution, but that's no thing to do with the Rokh.
Since we've got an artificial 250km limit, it is actually possible for nearly all ships (even Hyperion) to participate in fleet battles. The problem is you need T2 guns and T2 ammo. The Rokh is different in that it can do it really well with T1 guns and T1 ammo.
I'm saying the Rokh isn't intruding on any battleship's turf since there are only four possible suspects for the turf: One it can't intrude on, one that's admittedly lacking, one that is the Rokh itself, and the last one which is doubtful if it was meant to be in the list.
NOW. Let's talk intruding on turf. Hyperion: Hey! I'm a blasterboat! Move aside puny Megathron. Abaddon: Hey! I'm a tanking ganking boat! Move aside... aw crap, I'm out of breath.
When it comes to the Maelstrom, I couldn't honestly put it in the list. It's bonuses doesn't complement it very well, and.... you know.
As has been said, a great many good ideas in here (my opinion might be coloured since my post count in this thread is quite high... well) but few responses from devs. Don't know whether they think we're being smartypants or whether most of the best ones would require a renovation of the whole battleship class to fit in properly. Sad thing is, I think the concepts are nailed down and they don't give a rats arse about the thread since most of the posters aren't thrilled about the concepts. - EVE is sick. |
Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 23:38:00 -
[793]
I'm highly dispointed at the new changes... Just got on for first time checking all ship setups, hyperion sucks. Mainly because it's supposed ot tank with 6 low-slots... ok... The 5th midlost is a waste of space and the extra cpu isn't need imo. If you wanna make the hyperion a blasterboat give it 7 lows 4 mids... The megathorn should have 5 mids and 6 lows tbh as its meant for fleet.
High-Sec/0.0 PvP Recruitment |
Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.21 00:03:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Kaeten I'm highly dispointed at the new changes... Just got on for first time checking all ship setups, hyperion sucks. Mainly because it's supposed ot tank with 6 low-slots... ok... The 5th midlost is a waste of space and the extra cpu isn't need imo. If you wanna make the hyperion a blasterboat give it 7 lows 4 mids... The megathorn should have 5 mids and 6 lows tbh as its meant for fleet.
1 extra mid for tracking comp II to compensate for no tracking bonus 1 less low but 7.5% armor rep bonus and enough grid to fit 2 LAR II's gives it a better tank than the dual accom electron mega. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 01:27:00 -
[795]
Originally by: Ithildin Since we've got an artificial 250km limit, it is actually possible for nearly all ships (even Hyperion) to participate in fleet battles. The problem is you need T2 guns and T2 ammo. The Rokh is different in that it can do it really well with T1 guns and T1 ammo.
Tech 2 ammo was decreased to 80% instead of 100% which means that the max range a Mega can fire with 3 tracking computer 2 and 3 tracking enhancers 2 (which is not a reasonable setup in the least)is ~210k while the Rohk can warp into a sniper spot ~211k - 249k and fire away without a single worry.
Balanced? I think not.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.21 01:46:00 -
[796]
why the tier3 BS have a shield recharge time of 2000 seconds? all other bs have only 3000 seconds, that a pretty nice 1/3 boost for all shield tankers ...
no fun anymore to be amarr
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BugxEarl
Amarr Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.21 03:30:00 -
[797]
Abaddon's turrets do 7% more DPS over geddon with same condition (as in, same skill and same number of HSII mounted). The DPS differs between Tachyon and Pulse, much less the setup between fleet and gank so I won't go into details; it doesn't really matter.
Abaddon has smaller drone bay compared to the geddon.
5 Medium drones: 150 +/- DPS depending on which drone are used 5 Heavy drones: 310 +/- DPS depending on which drones are used. 4 Heavy drones: 250 +/- DPS blahblah
Abaddon does both close-range and fleet-range decently. I would not say 'better' since that depends on personal preference of whether someone wants flexibility, survivability, etc. One thing I can say though, is that Abaddon is basically a ship which cost more and does the job of either Geddon or Apoc with some slight bonus.
Honestly, I myself would not fly an Abaddon for ganking simply because that 180m isk + 50m for fitting of an abaddon would easily afford me 2 geddon. Its like fitting an expensive (but unnecessary) faction gear for something I could do without. Same thing for fleet; when you have 30 other ships in a fleet, does having a ship that does 7% more damage really matter if you'd still die in a few seconds of focus fire? Even with Kali's HP increase, ships still go down really freaking fast if there are 30 other ship firing at you.
Abaddon still needs 2 RCUII to fit turret rigs for cap reduction, which doesn't make the fitting any easier. I have a feeling this ship is going to turn into one of those 'its nice to have but not worth the isk' for PvP aspect, much like...*censored to avoid flame*.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:21:00 -
[798]
God, will the Amarrian whinning ever end?
To the game Dev,
If you want to know why you hear mostly Amarr pilots cry, here is the reason.
1. Caldari has the best new BS. So they are happy. 2. Gallente new BS is just okay, but they plan to fly Rohk, so they are happy. 3. Minmatarr BS is the crap, but they plan to fly Abaddon, because its better for Projectile then Beam, so they are happy. 4. Which leaves us with Amarrians....
Please do something for them! Here is my proposal... give Abaddon a third bonus, 10% armor hp increase per level also!
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:46:00 -
[799]
Why not just nerf Rohk's range bonus? Everyone is complaining about it :)
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Bre-X
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Posted - 2006.11.21 06:51:00 -
[800]
Originally by: Noriath Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.
If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.
Thats not true even in the slightest...
Caldari you must train for...
Missiles - Primary for 2/5 of ships And Hybrids - Primary for 2/5 of ships
To get functionality from every ship. You cant apply ew here because each race has its own form of ew. Nor can you really apply drones here as each race can use them though gallente are far more effective as drone users.
Amarr - Lasers Gallente - Hybrids Matari - Projectiles ---------------------------------------- http://www.oldnumber7.com/forumpic.gif Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat |
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ProphetGuru
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 08:16:00 -
[801]
Originally by: xOm3gAx
Thats not true even in the slightest...
Caldari you must train for...
Missiles - Primary for 2/5 of ships And Hybrids - Primary for 2/5 of ships
To get functionality from every ship. You cant apply ew here because each race has its own form of ew. Nor can you really apply drones here as each race can use them though gallente are far more effective as drone users.
Amarr - Lasers Gallente - Hybrids Matari - Projectiles
Matari - armor tanking shield tanking missiles projectiles
sorry... you'll never win a sp requirement battle with those that fly matari ships.
[CLS] Bawldeux IV- start posting all kinds of crap about BoB members, insulting their families,friends,anything that will **** them off. |
Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 11:43:00 -
[802]
Actually do just the opposit give all the tier 3 BS an optimal range/falloff bonus so they all can be fleet ships. Will not make them any better but range/resist means that all races will have a LR fleet ship, just that some races will have 2 or 3.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Aequitas Veritas
TAOSP Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:15:00 -
[803]
Originally by: Noriath Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.
If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.
Congratulations! You won the 2nd medal this week for utterly stupid posting!
(If anyone wonders why, contact me ingame and Ill give you a medal too for outstanding stupidity)
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin |
Lisian Tonoko
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:18:00 -
[804]
I'de hate to see the Hyperion be put in another role then a pure blaster boat, one of the reasons because it goes completely against its intended design(visually). Check its weapon placements, forward guns ready for rapidfire up close, with engines put in the middle to indicate superior propulsion versus its fellow shiplings.
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Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:18:00 -
[805]
rpkh is being used as a blaster boat or a nossing tanking ship on test server
High-Sec/0.0 PvP Recruitment |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:25:00 -
[806]
WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat) --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Mirasta
Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 15:05:00 -
[807]
The Rokh isn't working as intended, its a better blaster boat than the new blaster boat. Theres a few reasons why rokhs wont be all that for fleet combat. To make it work in a fleet to use all its bounouses all your friends need to have one, otherwise you will be operating inside your optimal range. They dont do alot of damage, as said before the Mega will still be a better rail sniper because of its greater damage out put.
The Rokh will be a great T1 sniper in its current form and allow people with fairly low gunnery skills to get in on the fleet sniping action, but at what price. if it was meant to target the newer end of the players and at a price tag of nearly 180mil theres a chance they will still choose a scorp or the time to train a mega.
The main thing the Rokh is good for now is letting caldari players do something alittle bit more intresting other than having the raven and not having to think about ppositioning and range. Personally i think it should get a nerf before it get TQ, but i cant exactly put my finger on what but i belive a T1 Fitted Blaster Rokh shouldent beable to beet a 2003 Players Blaster hyperion with 4 T2 heavy drones.
Of couse, You are now reading my sig. |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.21 15:49:00 -
[808]
Oh lol, how can anyone loose in a meant to be Balsterboat with tech2 equipment to a tech1 Rokh. Ah, let me guess. Your with noob
Sorry, but you aready mentioned the problems the Rokh will encounter in terms of fleet fights. Also, a Rokh would be crushed down by a Megathron Blasterboat, so why should it be nerfed? Just because you fitted the wrong modules and got pwned by a newb? ^^
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:30:00 -
[809]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 21/11/2006 17:30:46 maelstrom is still a floating piece of junk without a purpose active shield boos bonus on a longrange boat is just useless, you changed those bonuses on caldari(Moa i think?) a long time ago to resist bonuses because it were useless, now you give it to minni? come on
Abbadon has now same alphastrike with tachyons as tempest AND superior dps, also an abaddon with ac's does more damage and tanks better than a tempest aswell (due to being able to fit more gyros alongside the armourtank)
well geee you should have told me earlier that i should train amarrr BS if i wanted a minni ac boat, wtf really
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:49:00 -
[810]
maelstorm shield recharge got also nerfed/balanced so is no more 1500 but 3000 as others...
before this change was quite possible to fit a decent AC (hail) + passive tank now the option is gone...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:51:00 -
[811]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)
ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored?
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Shinjuro
Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:10:00 -
[812]
Just flew the Maelstrom for the first time, and tried almost every setup that I could. As said before, WTF is the point of putting an active shield boost bonus on a ship designed for long range? As an AC platform, it is quite pointless. I found using a few nos in the place of AC's to be more usefull.
If we are supposed to only have our Alpha strike then give it to us. Switch the ROF bonus to a Damage bonus. At least then the Maelstrom will have somewhat of a purpose. And if you refuse to do that, then at least consider switching the Boost bonus to a Overall Shield HP bonus. EVE is long overdue for a passive tanking BS.
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Justin Cody
Caldari The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:58:00 -
[813]
mmm passive tanking BS eh? you sure you want that? alongside great alpha strike damage? well well well...gimme my drake back then and we'll talk.
Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
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BillyBong2
Amarr Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:02:00 -
[814]
For the Abaddon, what about using Pulses, tracking and plates. MWD, Webber,Tracking?
Use the resists to survive up close. Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.
Maybe I am naive, I see the Abaddon as the ship that would least likely want to be on the receiving end of a broadside from. Just my thoughts.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:12:00 -
[815]
Originally by: Justin Cody mmm passive tanking BS eh? you sure you want that? alongside great alpha strike damage? well well well...gimme my drake back then and we'll talk.
alpha with autocannons?
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Ms Rousseau
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:52:00 -
[816]
Originally by: Mirasta The Rokh isn't working as intended, its a better blaster boat than the new blaster boat. Theres a few reasons why rokhs wont be all that for fleet combat. To make it work in a fleet to use all its bounouses all your friends need to have one, otherwise you will be operating inside your optimal range. They dont do alot of damage, as said before the Mega will still be a better rail sniper because of its greater damage out put.
The Rokh will be a great T1 sniper in its current form and allow people with fairly low gunnery skills to get in on the fleet sniping action, but at what price. if it was meant to target the newer end of the players and at a price tag of nearly 180mil theres a chance they will still choose a scorp or the time to train a mega.
The main thing the Rokh is good for now is letting caldari players do something alittle bit more intresting other than having the raven and not having to think about ppositioning and range. Personally i think it should get a nerf before it get TQ, but i cant exactly put my finger on what but i belive a T1 Fitted Blaster Rokh shouldent beable to beet a 2003 Players Blaster hyperion with 4 T2 heavy drones.
I think we'll see the Rokh as a weapon deployed against other snipers. With it's superior range but lower DPS it probably won't be a great countersniper in terms of kills, but it will force sniperthrons to find a new warp in point to attack. More of a thorn in the side then an omgwtfbbq'er.
If people are complaining about the Rokh then it's probably because Caldari have the most solid identity of any race in Eve. Somewhere in development the other races went schizophrenic. I think the devs should talk to some RPers to find out what is best to do since they would have the best idea of their racial identity. Maybe not getting input from RPers is what got the 4 races into this schizo mess-- all they've done is listen to non-RPings PvPers who seem to want the races to have all the same ships but with different skins.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 22:46:00 -
[817]
Originally by: BillyBong2 Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.
Because in a close fight the armageddon does more damage at a third of the price.
Forsch Defender of the empire
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:39:00 -
[818]
Originally by: Ms Rousseau
I think the devs should talk to some RPers to find out what is best to do since they would have the best idea of their racial identity. Maybe not getting input from RPers is what got the 4 races into this schizo mess-- all they've done is listen to non-RPings PvPers who seem to want the races to have all the same ships but with different skins.
hehe...i know a few rpers that would prefer the abaddon to be an untypical amarrian bs. not because we want all races to have the same ships but because we only fly amarrian ships and still want to have some ships that are good for pvp. if all 3 of our battleships rely purely on lasers we get to be utterly predictable in bs-sized pvp. on the crusier and frig-level its not so bad because we have the arbitrator and inquisitor there.
now with the current bonuses on the abaddon: 5% laser damage (in case that gets fixed anyway) 5% armor resists
the abaddon is at least not as crappy as it was before. it still fails because it still is nothing but a better geddon/apoc. but at least now it can perform the gank part to some decree without running out of cap instantly.
now a quick fix would be to simply give it 6 unbonused launcher slots on top of that. then we would be able to actually use its supposed 2nd role and tank this ship without using projectile weapons.
and thats one of the points many amarrian rpers hate: our tankers are better off with matari weapons if they really want to get a good sustainable tank going. if our tank-line of ships had some launcher slots we could use this other zero-cap weapon for tanking and from an rp-point of view missiles are far less heretical than matari projectile weapons.
of course giving the abaddon launchers to tank with would further reduce the usefulness of the apoc but that ship has been in need of some change for a long time anyway.
another option would be the big-arbitrator in place of the abaddon or apoc: 10% drone dmg/hp 20% tracking disruptor optimal range 5 medslots split launcher/turret/utility highslots 250m3 dronebay
there are a lot of other ways to make the abaddon useful. just giving us 3 more or less identical battleships is not going to help us much though.
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Mordrake
MetaForge
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:43:00 -
[819]
Just scanned this thread to see if the new Caldari BS was as badly nerfed as the Drake yet... good to see it seems like Tux hasn't caved to the complainers yet on this one.
"Arte et Marte" |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:44:00 -
[820]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Leandro Salazar WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)
ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored?
Wrong target. My portrait in Caldari because I prefer imperial uniforms over sunglasses, but ship-wise I am a Matari (well Jack of all trades really, but Caldari, Amarr and Gallente are just tools while the Minnie ones are my babies) so I take being called Caldari player an insult
But still I wouldn't object to totally removing long range weapons! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Ms Rousseau
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:52:00 -
[821]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ms Rousseau
I think the devs should talk to some RPers to find out what is best to do since they would have the best idea of their racial identity. Maybe not getting input from RPers is what got the 4 races into this schizo mess-- all they've done is listen to non-RPings PvPers who seem to want the races to have all the same ships but with different skins.
hehe...i know a few rpers that would prefer the abaddon to be an untypical amarrian bs. not because we want all races to have the same ships but because we only fly amarrian ships and still want to have some ships that are good for pvp. if all 3 of our battleships rely purely on lasers we get to be utterly predictable in bs-sized pvp. on the crusier and frig-level its not so bad because we have the arbitrator and inquisitor there.
now with the current bonuses on the abaddon: 5% laser damage (in case that gets fixed anyway) 5% armor resists
the abaddon is at least not as crappy as it was before. it still fails because it still is nothing but a better geddon/apoc. but at least now it can perform the gank part to some decree without running out of cap instantly.
now a quick fix would be to simply give it 6 unbonused launcher slots on top of that. then we would be able to actually use its supposed 2nd role and tank this ship without using projectile weapons.
and thats one of the points many amarrian rpers hate: our tankers are better off with matari weapons if they really want to get a good sustainable tank going. if our tank-line of ships had some launcher slots we could use this other zero-cap weapon for tanking and from an rp-point of view missiles are far less heretical than matari projectile weapons.
of course giving the abaddon launchers to tank with would further reduce the usefulness of the apoc but that ship has been in need of some change for a long time anyway.
another option would be the big-arbitrator in place of the abaddon or apoc: 10% drone dmg/hp 20% tracking disruptor optimal range 5 medslots split launcher/turret/utility highslots 250m3 dronebay
there are a lot of other ways to make the abaddon useful. just giving us 3 more or less identical battleships is not going to help us much though.
that's what's great about the Khanid ships, even though there seem to be only tech 2 khanid ships, aside from there, is there any reason not to have a Khanid battleship? I know CCP has a 10 year plan for eve, but i don't see why, barring some radical change in the races that there cannot be a missile spewing Khanid BS. It won't be better than a raven at missiles, but close enough to compare them while armor tanking. Is that unbalanced? I don't think so.
This is what I mean by asking RPers what they want, i think it's a great idea to break away from the rigidity of Amarr by using the Khanid designs, or even making in EWar-Drone ship like the Arbitrator. Any reason not too?
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Mirasta
Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:56:00 -
[822]
Edited by: Mirasta on 22/11/2006 00:03:23
Originally by: Asariasha Oh lol, how can anyone loose in a meant to be Balsterboat with tech2 equipment to a tech1 Rokh. Ah, let me guess. Your with noob
Sorry, but you aready mentioned the problems the Rokh will encounter in terms of fleet fights. Also, a Rokh would be crushed down by a Megathron Blasterboat, so why should it be nerfed? Just because you fitted the wrong modules and got pwned by a newb? ^^
Perhaps i wasn't clear. i was the noob in the Rokh, out tanking a ship with a tank bounous and out damaging a ship with a blaster bounous. But thats getting a Bit OT now.
Point is, i shoulden't have won.
Of couse, You are now reading my sig. |
Mordrake
MetaForge
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:13:00 -
[823]
Edited by: Mordrake on 22/11/2006 00:15:44 Edited by: Mordrake on 22/11/2006 00:14:38
Originally by: Mirasta Edited by: Mirasta on 22/11/2006 00:03:23
Originally by: Asariasha Oh lol, how can anyone loose in a meant to be Balsterboat with tech2 equipment to a tech1 Rokh. Ah, let me guess. Your with noob
Sorry, but you aready mentioned the problems the Rokh will encounter in terms of fleet fights. Also, a Rokh would be crushed down by a Megathron Blasterboat, so why should it be nerfed? Just because you fitted the wrong modules and got pwned by a newb? ^^
Perhaps i wasn't clear. i was the noob in the Rokh, out tanking a ship with a tank bounous and out damaging a ship with a blaster bounous. But thats getting a Bit OT now. Point is, i shoulden't have won.
This Caldari Character you are posting with must be your second account or an Alt..... were you posting in the BC Thread screaming to Nurf the Drake as well?
What race is your most developed "Main" Character anyways?
"Arte et Marte" |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:22:00 -
[824]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Leandro Salazar WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)
ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored?
Wrong target. My portrait in Caldari because I prefer imperial uniforms over sunglasses, but ship-wise I am a Matari (well Jack of all trades really, but Caldari, Amarr and Gallente are just tools while the Minnie ones are my babies) so I take being called Caldari player an insult
But still I wouldn't object to totally removing long range weapons!
nah the target was not you, but the idea that a certain aspect of the game should be accessible only to players that pilot a certain race...
regardless if this can be considered boring or not...
the fact that a particular form of pvp can be considered boring is not a justification to have it relegated to caldari users only... expecially considering that fleet battles maybe are not that exciting but are probably the most important form of pvp as is the way alliance fight each other
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:23:00 -
[825]
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Originally by: Noriath Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.
If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.
Congratulations! You won the 2nd medal this week for utterly stupid posting!
Congratulations, you won the platinum bowl with minibar for utterly unqualified flaming!
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BugxEarl
Amarr Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.22 02:04:00 -
[826]
Caldari is not a jack-of-all-trade. They don't have a close range ganking ship with high damage output...but whatever, this whole Caldari this Caldari that is going off topic. Lets shift it back to something about tier3 BS.
In light of the calibration point change, I'd like to mention a couple of things;
t1 gets 200 calibration points, meaning....no more Abaddon filled with cap reduction rig! What does this mean? Basically, Abaddon's cap consumption got reduced by 33-% with the damage bonus change and it's got an increase of cap consumption by 15% due to rigs being un*****ble. For christ's sake atleast boost the cap use reduction rig both for hybrid and laser. Doesn't have to be godly amount, just enough to compensate for the change.
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Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:16:00 -
[827]
Abaddon is excellent. Only problem it has is 8 Large lasers, lots of cap drain and no real way to keep all 8 firing continually. Extra mid slot for a cap recharger would work nicely IMO.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:56:00 -
[828]
And the Amarrian whinefest continues....
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.22 05:22:00 -
[829]
Originally by: XFreedomX And the Amarrian whinefest continues....
I think I can talk in the name of all Amarr pilots:
**** off troll!
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.11.22 06:45:00 -
[830]
Edited by: Noriath on 22/11/2006 06:45:51
Originally by: BugxEarl Caldari is not a jack-of-all-trade. They don't have a close range ganking ship with high damage output...but whatever, this whole Caldari this Caldari that is going off topic. Lets shift it back to something about tier3 BS.
They don't? Hmm, strange, I could have sworn a TP/RT Raven was up there with the most powerful close range gankers, and generally capable of a dozen non-gank setups that work brilliantly at under 20km.
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:27:00 -
[831]
Come on CCp. We are having several issues here but i will try to cover only a group the matar one. We have issues with arties loosing its AS.. maelstrombeing not very good... Amar ships with projectiles being better than mata with projectiles etc...
You can solve all this changing all 5% damage bonus on matarian ships to 7% and changing Maelstrom 5%rof to 7% damage. Now Projectiles would stay at Minmatar ships as well alpha strike.
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Shadowsword
Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:35:00 -
[832]
Originally by: BillyBong2 For the Abaddon, what about using Pulses, tracking and plates. MWD, Webber,Tracking?
Use the resists to survive up close. Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.
Fitting for close range in large battles is just asking to get "kitted" inside an interdictor bubble, and get sniped from afar. Better to fit for long range and still be marginally effective in close. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:31:00 -
[833]
I want to report a crime.
I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.
As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.
CCP; this is not applying the nerfbat - this is the destruction of Minmitar as a viable race to play Eve with in Fleet combat. You have some game balancing to do - either nerf the Rohk or fundamentally reconsider your position on artillery (admit you were wrong and reintroduce long range OMGWTFBBQ alpha strike).
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:45:00 -
[834]
Edited by: Asariasha on 22/11/2006 12:46:31 Oh lol and there comes the next whine about a BS sized Ferox called Rokh. Well Im waiting for the next nerfbat applied onto Caldari due to soooo much overpowered ships. Found any ironicism?
If you want to beat a Rokh, just fit a AC setup and go for closerange as a Cyclone Pilot does with Ferox guys.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:12:00 -
[835]
wts: all my apocs. The Abaddon is the only bs ill use in fleet ever again ;)
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:04:00 -
[836]
Originally by: The Armin wts: all my apocs. The Abaddon is the only bs ill use in fleet ever again ;)
...because...?
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LC Sulla
BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:08:00 -
[837]
Originally by: Gragnor I want to report a crime.
I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.
As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.
How the hell the devs are able to wade through all this crap I'll never know...
How about telling us EXACTLY what you had in your mids and lows (as well as your gunnery skills). What was your optimal range and tracking? Was your oppenent too close or have too high a transveral? Did you have t2 shield hardners, t2 shield boost amp?? Did you have damage mods in your lows (I mean the right ones for arbies )... Were you equally matched in skill with your opponent or are you a noob with 2m sp while he/she has 30m sp.
A loss in combat is not sudden proof that one ship type owns another.
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Raste
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:10:00 -
[838]
Get rid of the Rokh range bonus. T2 snipers get range nerfed, and in the same motion Caldari get a range bonus on a sniping ship? Give me a break.
Change the shield boost bonus to a damage bonus on the Mael. Shield boost is useless for fleet.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.22 17:40:00 -
[839]
How about just mixing all the Battleships up a bit:
Caldari: Fine as is.
Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.
Minmatar: Typhoon gets one or two more missile slots (+25m¦ dronebay if only +1 missile), and the turret bonus is changed to a painter one (cheap tier1 EW BS). Maelstrom becomes, well, I don't know, but it needs to be powerful enough to justify the tier3 price tag.
Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:45:00 -
[840]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.
No, the dominix is the uglyest ship game, make *that* the lame-o EW boat, and leave the hyperion (best looking bs in game by miles) as a non-lame combat ship.
Thnx. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
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Aphotic Raven
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Posted - 2006.11.23 01:38:00 -
[841]
Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:43:54 Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:41:56
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.
Quote:
No, the dominix is the uglyest ship game, make *that* the lame-o EW boat, and leave the hyperion (best looking bs in game by miles) as a non-lame combat ship.
Thnx.
Sigh. Dominix isnt overpowered its just not ****house. Again, for all you blaster sports fans *****ing about the dominix, it gets about 11.5k PG.
3 heavy nos = 6k 2 LAR = 4k 100MN AB = 0.5k? 1600mm plate = 0.5k
enjoy that last 500pg, mount some 150mm rails and wtfpwn a mega... sure... THATS why domi pilots use ecm, they have left over CPU for putting cool stuff on.... frigate/cruiser size cool stuff... hurray.
Hyperion on sisi enjoys about 17k PG i believe (i may be wrong)... People need to learn to fit nos on ships that need it... retards... Domi is balanced, ECM was overpowered, thats gone now, congratulations whingers. Now ISK and numbers are all that wins a fight, go on and whinge for a NOS nerf too just to ensure that you always win if you have the bigger shinier hunk of blastercrap.
Seriously fly a dominix and then jump in a hype for a day and stfu.
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Bre-X
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:52:00 -
[842]
Originally by: Gragnor I want to report a crime.
I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.
As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.
CCP; this is not applying the nerfbat - this is the destruction of Minmitar as a viable race to play Eve with in Fleet combat. You have some game balancing to do - either nerf the Rohk or fundamentally reconsider your position on artillery (admit you were wrong and reintroduce long range OMGWTFBBQ alpha strike).
You know its funny cus i was using a rokh with 8x 425mm's and got wtfpwnbbqfishsticks by the new tier 3 matari ship does that mean they need to be nerfed... no not really and btw i never made it past his shields in optimal with antimatter ammo. I also have 7mil sp in gunnery was t1 vs t1 and i never took more then 25% of his shields ;) Just rethink ur kit. ---------------------------------------- http://www.oldnumber7.com/forumpic.gif Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat |
Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 06:57:00 -
[843]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.
If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.
Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way (Khanid is different but hey, they're T2). Lasers and armortanking are the Amarrian way. It's one-dimensional but it's what the entire race is all about so stick to it or go multiracial with your skills.
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erConte
Gallente Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.23 08:14:00 -
[844]
Just did my first (fast) tour on test server... wow, Hyperion capacitor is more sucking than I was thinking
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:27:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.
ah so its ok that our tier 3 bs is nothing but a slightly better version of tier1/2 because we can always train for another race. didnt think of that.
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way
for t1 you may want to have a look at the inquisitor, arbitrator, harbinger and geddon.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:44:00 -
[846]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.
ah so its ok that our tier 3 bs is nothing but a slightly better version of tier1/2 because we can always train for another race. didnt think of that.
He's saying that, regardless of how the Amarr line up looks like, drones are a Gallentean fortT, and if one wishes to excel at drones one should train for Gallente. (Although personally, I think it's OK to add drone ships to other races as long as Gallente ships are *better* drone ships - which incidentally has nothing to do with cost)
Quote:
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way
for t1 you may want to have a look at the inquisitor, arbitrator, harbinger and geddon.
Those ships are: Missile ship, drone and EW ship, laser ship, laser ship.
There are neat ways to fit it all in without upsetting racial preferences, etc. but I don't think CCP want me to tamper with their game balance, considering I'd start at the root and overhaul the game - EVE is sick. |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:51:00 -
[847]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.
If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.
Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way (Khanid is different but hey, they're T2). Lasers and armortanking are the Amarrian way. It's one-dimensional but it's what the entire race is all about so stick to it or go multiracial with your skills.
I already fly all races and use all weapons, thank you. It is just that I (obviously) like diversity and consider the singleminded 'Amarr way' pretty retarded. Adding a ship that does the same thing as two others we already have goes 100% against what I think makes EVE great.
There really is not so much of a problem with EANs and lasers, there is a problem with common Amarr attitiude towards possible solutions for their problem. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:55:00 -
[848]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 23/11/2006 11:56:13
Originally by: Aphotic Raven
Sigh. Dominix isnt overpowered [...]
Who said Domi was overpowered? I said it is very powerful which noone with a clue can honestly deny. So selfish reasons from Domi pilots put aside, what would be so bad about the price tag reflecting that?
And yeah, I would also agree with giving the tier3 drone boat the sexy Hype model, and the tier1 SD boat the buttugly Dominix model. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Shin Mai
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Posted - 2006.11.23 13:46:00 -
[849]
u cant change a ship from t1 to t3... but let the hyperion as it is, at its first come out with a 5% mwd bonus and turrent bonus, a good blasterboat... and and if u want to use ewf play caldari ;)
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:10:00 -
[850]
Originally by: Shin Mai u cant change a ship from t1 to t3... but let the hyperion as it is, at its first come out with a 5% mwd bonus and turrent bonus, a good blasterboat... and and if u want to use ewf play caldari ;)
Right, I cannot. But Tux could All it takes is switching the HP amount, required skill, model, resource reqs and ship bonuses of the current Hype and the current Domi. Then the old Domi is tier3 and the new Hype is tier1. Not that I think this has more than a snowball's chance in hell of happening though. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Shin Mai
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:14:00 -
[851]
dont think so, because domis price becomes tripled, and domi is still really good, and gallente could need a fast blasterboat...
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Menf
Seraphin Technologies Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:59:00 -
[852]
its a real shame that caldari didnt got a Tier3 BS with Missi*****nus I have no gunneryskills(except the ones i need to fly a capital ship) and now i got a ship that is no option for me..
i had no problem with this if theyre where an second Tier 3 BS with missi*****nus...but this is really S***
_____________________________________________
Some players allready noticed.. "If you SEE me, its allready too late..." |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 16:39:00 -
[853]
Originally by: Menf its a real shame that caldari didnt got a Tier3 BS with Missi*****nus I have no gunneryskills(except the ones i need to fly a capital ship) and now i got a ship that is no option for me..
i had no problem with this if theyre where an second Tier 3 BS with missi*****nus...but this is really S***
Aside from the fact that they made a duplicate blaster ship for Gallente, how would you make a tier 3 Caldari battleship with missiles without usurping the Raven? - EVE is sick. |
Shin Mai
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Posted - 2006.11.23 16:44:00 -
[854]
the hyp should be a real blasterboat, maybe with a malus on range, and mega can then used as sniper or as blaster too, but not that well...
oh and anyone knows if there are t3 faction bs??
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Ammon Ishar
Monks of War
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Posted - 2006.11.23 19:20:00 -
[855]
please do something with maelstrom! it's absolutely useless
and i can't understand one thing - why Caldari (great missiles specialists), have best sniping battle for a fleets?
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.23 19:26:00 -
[856]
Because caldari are also supposed to be the best snipers. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2006.11.23 20:07:00 -
[857]
I cant believe they havent changed the Maelstorm boost bonus to sth useful yet.
First the ship¦s description said it was meant to be a fleet BS. Then it got that useless boost bonus which is admittedly not usful for that purpose. Tux admitted it plus the Caldari Railgun platforms on e had that bonus and it got changed to plain resists because....exactly, because it wasnt useful!)
Now the Maelstorms description says sth about versatility? So instead of changing the bonus so the ship can live up to its description you change the ship¦s purpose? Very clever indeed.
So what do we get with the Maelstorm in its current state:
- Fleet BS ? Nope, since you can ignore the 2nd bonus for that purpose as if it wasnt even there we have basically a tempest with slighty highter damage (8 guns vs 7,5 effective guns) and hp BUT that comes for a way bigger price (baseprice of the ships plus even worse 2 more Artys and we all know how expensive t2 artys are nowadays). Nobody in his right mind or without huge piles of spare money will use it over the tempest for fleet duty, fact.
- Mission runner: This might actually work. Better tank then the raven but a raven is still way better for that job (not to mention its faction versions), even with a lot less skillpoints.
- Short range boat: No way. Tempest and Phoon both beat it terms of dps or utility (nos or siege in missile slots) while being much faster and cheaper.
So with its current boost bonus the Maelstorm is not worth using over the other minni BS or any other BS for that matter, its broken, underpowered and really a shame, especially since the decent ship minnies got with revelations, the Hurricane, got that unecessary nerf.
Change the boost bonus per level to sth useful like:
- +5% Shield Resists (boring but useful)
- +7,5% Shield hp (useful and unique, maybe 10% even)
- + 10% falloff (does not mean AC boat! it will help artys more then you think, because they are more often used in their falloff in mixed fleet because they are the shortest range compared to rails and beams, a AC Mael would be possible but not too good because of its high mass and slow speed)
- +10% optimal range (artys have the shortest range of all long range weapon systems so they deserve a ship based range bonus much more then a rail platform like the Rohk)
All these bonuses would make the Maelstorm into what it was intended to be: A Fleet BS worth using.
Dont leave it as it is now, would be a shame to waste that nice ship model for sth that is not worth flying...
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.24 00:22:00 -
[858]
the maelstrom really needs some help, neither as ac or arty ship is thing worth flying in 95% of the time
redesign it plz
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.24 00:39:00 -
[859]
Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.
Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.
Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.
The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.
Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.
The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2006.11.24 06:16:00 -
[860]
Tempest out damages the Mealstrum. (Tempest 6x1200mm + 2 cruise launcher vs Mealstrum 8x1400mm)
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 11:46:00 -
[861]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.
A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range. And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.
I will trade anytime range for damage bonus. Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Shin Mai
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Posted - 2006.11.24 12:01:00 -
[862]
why not make the hyperion an blastership without drones and a good bonus, this will be different to the mega, and without drones it can have a bit more grid and a good bonus and it is still not overpowered
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.24 12:30:00 -
[863]
Originally by: Zixxa Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.
When your enemy outranges you a damage bonus is pretty useless.
0 dps * 1.25 -> 0 dps
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 12:46:00 -
[864]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Zixxa Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.
When your enemy outranges you a damage bonus is pretty useless.
0 dps * 1.25 -> 0 dps
Yes, you are right. In this case damage bonus useless. But it is rare situation. Because you need that ALL or MOST of ships were outranged with ANY Ammo type. And it need to enemy sniper fleet HAVE great alpha-strike(Rokh has worst BS alfa-strike in Eve, except Raven and Scorp and Domi, and with long ranged rail ammo things are even worse for Rokh). And even if this situation will occur, enemy fleet with bonus damage just warp out and try to win distance using covert ships. Anyway sniper fleet will loose more.
Btw, for what hell Rokh need this famous resistance bonus being so ultimate sniper? Oxymoron... --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.24 13:22:00 -
[865]
Exept it isn't that easy. The rohk has for fleetbattles 2 advantages:
- t2 longrange with t1 ammo For all other BSs if you only have t1 guns you are not able to participate when you need sniping distances. Which happens in fleetbattles regulary. Rohk pilots can. No, with their t1 guns & ammo they won't do as much dps as other BSs with t2 ammo, but 50% of other ships dps is still preferable with 0% of their dps.
- surgical strikes with t2 ammo In a BS blob vs BS blob slugfest rohks won't be THAT effective, yes, but thats not everything fleet combat is about. Vitally important for any fleet are support ships. Interdictors, intys, EW cruisers,... The more effective fleets in EVE usualyl have a good amount of theses with them (i.e. BOB). Rohks with t2 ammo will be perfect to take these out. Before the real battle starts a smart fleet comamnder will use t2 fitted rohks to warp to a 250k sniper spot, kill 4-5 support ships & warp out. Repeat. Once you have enough rohks you can do the same thing against enemy BSs (scorpians would be prime targets there). An enemy fleet softened this way is a *much* easier target for your own main fleet to take out.
And the only counter for this are...rohks. A good deal more rohks than the other side to be specific. This is where their resistance bonus will prove extremly usefull - it makes tham a lot more durable against counterfire from enemy rohks. A lot more dureable than anything else bar other tier 3 ships. Which will be the last possible targets. So your only option to inflict on a rohk commando as many losses as they inflict on you is to have about 50% more rohks they they have. Otherwise, as said, the enemy fleet will just kill your support ships with their rohks and then the enemy fleet + rohks + their support ships will destroy the rest of your fleet.
What we'll see is an arms race in t2 rohks for enemy fleets.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 14:29:00 -
[866]
Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.
Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.
Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs. Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs). Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless. Remove this bonus at all and give it as present to Tux team. You will see NO DIFFERENCE for Rokh.
And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST a) smart fleet commander b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots c) effective intel Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs. But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:26:00 -
[867]
Originally by: Zixxa Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.
Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.
Advice for the future: namecalling when you run out of arguments isn't very sucessful.
Quote: Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.
How? They cannot reach it's range.
Let's even say both fleets get the jump on each other equally often enough.
- Megas jump the rohks. Rohks get killed, but they *will* also take a good part of the megas with them - Rohks jump the megas. Megas will get killed, with *zero* losses for the rohks. Because the megas cannot reach them.
The advantage still lies on the rohk fleet.
Quote: Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).
You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't. The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them. There is a little difference between having only the t2 fitted rohks in the other fleet being able to fire back and having every t2 fitted bs and t1 & t2 fitted rohk fireing on you.
Quote: Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.
Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.
The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.
Quote: And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST a) smart fleet commander b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots c) effective intel Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs. But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.
And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.
And, as said said Rohks have the advantage here. If they are encountered flatfooted they will prolly loose, but they also WILL inflict damage. And if they catch the other side flatfooted the will win without suffering *any* damage.
YOu are right in one point, though. The only counter vs rohks are not only your own rohks, having a better fleetcommander and intel so you can outmaneuvre them is another counter.
But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions. A fleet of rohks will loose if you let your corp village idiot command them with stellar tactics like "we warp to them and attack". But if you do not chosoe a good fleetcommander you deserve to die. Also, a fleet of rohks will likely loose if you face a better fleetcommander and better intel. But so will any other fleet, too. However, if your FC actually has a brain and he and your intel are at least as good as that of the enemy the side with more rohks has a definite advantage.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:55:00 -
[868]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 24/11/2006 16:55:49 The Mael needs help plz, or just give us a comment about it
Maelstrom needs help
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:58:00 -
[869]
Originally by: Aramendel Advice for the future: namecalling when you run out of arguments isn't very sucessful.
You don't like truth? You pretend to convince me that Abaddon is not uber fleet BS?
Quote: How? They cannot reach it's range.
I know few methods to get in range Warp on covert. Turn on MWD and close gap. If Rokh has no MWD(and some stupid person insist here, that MWD is not required for Rokh), than sniper fleet may close gap only with MWD. If Rokh has MWD(as I insist), than Rokh has virtually no tank.
Quote: You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.
I can. I will focus fire to kill you and you will be dead. If I can't get reasonable firepower in focus than surgical strike is useless. And you need approximately Two Rokhs to get alpha strike of one Abaddon.
Quote: The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them.
Hah. Enemy will warp out seeing only Rokhs fleet. And everybody will knows that only situation where such fleet will be dangerous is really big distance. Do you see how you help to enemy bringing only Rokh fleet?
Quote:
Quote: Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.
Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.
The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.
Are you smart enough to understand that resistance bonus in your picture is COMPLETELY USELESS? Rokh vs any BS. Rokh does not need resistance, because any BS cannot hit it. Rokh vs Rokh. Rokh does not need resistance, because we have the same ships. Consequently we have TIE always. Ergo, resistance bonus of Rokh is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in picture you presented.
Quote: And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.
No. Range bonus is difficult to get and easy to loose.
Quote: But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.
In realistic situation you have lag, imcompetent commanders, stupid pilots and lack of intel. Any damage dealing fleet may survive this, but fleet, with the only weapon - additional range, will die. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.24 17:11:00 -
[870]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Audri Fisher
The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!
Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.
A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range. And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.
Oh, so as long as the range bonus forces a horrible mismatch, it is ok then? It's ok for a cruiser to have a range bonus because my battleship can rip it a new one? Or is is because YOUR ship no longer has the max range advantage?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.24 18:49:00 -
[871]
Edited by: Aramendel on 24/11/2006 18:50:08
Originally by: Zixxa You don't like truth? You pretend to convince me that Abaddon is not uber fleet BS?
I like truth. I do not like people who try to discredit peoples point with useless chatter (propaganda, etc) instead facts.
Quote: I know few methods to get in range Warp on covert. Turn on MWD and close gap. If Rokh has no MWD(and some stupid person insist here, that MWD is not required for Rokh), than sniper fleet may close gap only with MWD. If Rokh has MWD(as I insist), than Rokh has virtually no tank.
(+ about 100 more)
You are beginning to make me doubt that you ever were in a fleetbattle.
Cov ops: the fastest, cheetah, is with gangboni and 3 local nanos about 600 m/s fast. Time for it to travel the ~70 km to give your fleet a warpin point: 2 minutes. Sorry, battle is over.
MWDing BSs: Without any additional speedmods (which they won't have in a fleetbattle) they will have speeds between 1000-1500 m/s. So it will take them 45-70 secs to get into range. During which time they are EVEN BETTER targets for the rohks. Which then can also simply warp to a new sniperspot.
Seriously, those 2 options are so utterly, totally DUMB I have no real words for it.
Quote: I can. I will focus fire to kill you and you will be dead.
And you will focus fire a group of rohks which is sitting at 250k from you killing your support and weaker BS how exactly?
Quote: Are you smart enough to understand that resistance bonus in your picture is COMPLETELY USELESS? Rokh vs any BS. Rokh does not need resistance, because any BS cannot hit it. Rokh vs Rokh. Rokh does not need resistance, because we have the same ships. Consequently we have TIE always. Ergo, resistance bonus of Rokh is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in picture you presented.
Exept they will NOT shoot on the enemy Rohks as I have said multiple times already. Why waste time by shooting at them when they can use it to really weaken the enemy fleet by instapopping their support and the BSs with a weak tank (scorps, geddons, etc).
When the t2 rohks on both sides have grow enough that they can kil leach other in a relatively short time then they will focus first on those, of cource. But even there it helps the rohks. It's a 33% hp increase. This can be the difference between being able to warp out when 10 other rohks focus fire on you or exploding. It does not give them an advantage vs an other group of rohks of cource, but that does not mean it is useless.
Quote: No. Range bonus is difficult to get and easy to loose.
Ah, I love when a person is arguments and examples to strengthen a statement of theirs.
Try it sometimes. Even brutor reactor slaves can say "this is so". Saying WHY it is so is the key, though.
Quote: In realistic situation you have lag, imcompetent commanders, stupid pilots and lack of intel. Any damage dealing fleet may survive this, but fleet, with the only weapon - additional range, will die.
All these things effect "damage dealing" fleets just as badly as they effect sniper fleets.
Lag - no real difference there. Unless you would care to explain why a fleet of lets say megas would be less effected there than a fleet of rohks. Bad FCs - again, same thing. Both fleets have to warp to bookmarks. Where is the difference? Stupid pilots - unless they are the FC or the intel they are usually only causing their own death. Lack of intel - ok, a fleet of rohks jumps thorugh a gate which is bubbled and a fleet of megas sits 150km away. Fleet of rohks kills half the mega fleet & dies. A fleet of megas jumps through a gate, bubbled, fleet of rohks 250km away, mega fleet dies without being able to kill a single rohk *because they are out of range*. How exactly does it favour the damage fleet there?
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Succoros
Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.24 19:09:00 -
[872]
Aramendel I think you should just let this one go ----------------------------------- Death is more eternal than life. Everyone dies but not everyone lives. |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.24 20:14:00 -
[873]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/11/2006 20:15:00 Yeah please stop arguing with that brick wall. Maybe let the mods know about the continued trolling and ranting too, it IS against the rules... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.24 21:48:00 -
[874]
Edited by: Aramendel on 24/11/2006 21:49:42 Ok ok, sorry
It's too late for any changes anyway, time will tell.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.24 23:56:00 -
[875]
Just be like me and start your training on Caldari BS . In about 5 months the optimal bonus will be nerfed, but until then have fun with the broken bonus!
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
sandshark
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:07:00 -
[876]
If your hostile rokh is at 250k, just move 1k in the other direction, best jammers around!
I do have to agree though that i'm thinking of abbandoning my gallente roots and just go for caldari since they have it all anyways, best NPC, sniper (well at least now with kali they will...), sniping cruiser (210k range!!!) and scorp and rook are getting better jamming bonusses too. (so they are STILL the pwn in EW)
Lately when any new player asks me what to race to choose i just want to point 'm to caldari. How many of you wouldn't take caldari now if they would start over?
Its not really the range itself that bothers me, its how cheaply it can be in a rokh. A fitting for a sniping megathron can go up to 200M isk + the ship itself. Any rokh pilot can go fly to empire, buy a 425mm T1 rail BPO research it a tad, and there you go, fleetships cheap as dirt!
And don't even get me started on the hyperion |
ShadowlordUK
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Posted - 2006.11.25 09:30:00 -
[877]
Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 25/11/2006 09:31:19 The Rokh is an insanely good bs... simple fact.
The way you can tell is you think of a raven and then add a STRONGER tank, more fittings and more armor etc...
If you want to complain about dmg output... try fitting a full set of neutron blasters with tech 2 ammo and tell me if the dmg still sucks....
The Rokh is an awesome ship BOTH at very long and very short ranges.
Personally i have long ago accepted that the gms will always give the caldari the edge in eve combat...
So I trained caldari like the other mass of vets.
As far as the abaddon is concerned... i will still use it.. hell its a geddon with an extra turret point and it looks cool.. But tbh any ship that needs TWO large cap injectors fitted and running continuously to function really sucks for anything more then rat huting... and even then you certainly couldnt do anything more then belt rat hunting... Not exactly what you'd expect from a tier 3 bs lol
I understand that the abbaddon needed a balancing factor... and for some strange reason they chose cap... but tbh as time will tell... they over did it. Amarr needs SOME cap bonus otherwise it just doesnt work.
P.S. BTW thought i should add, for most ships a range bonus is actually a better bonus then dmg because it allows you to use more dmging ammo types... hence a range bonus is actually a range AND damage bonus in most situations..
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.25 11:40:00 -
[878]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/11/2006 11:44:52
Originally by: Tribunal Just be like me and start your training on Caldari BS . In about 5 months the optimal bonus will be nerfed, but until then have fun with the broken bonus!
I've got him almost ready, caldari-bs V, rapid-firing-5, large rail-spec-3 at the moment, but if fleetbattles turn out to become rokh parties, where tech-1 newbies shoot at 245km, then no fleet combat for me anymore.
I'm minmatar and want to fly tempest and stuff and I think with BS V and large-tech-2 projectiles and a fitting for 100mil isk the least thing I deserve is getting outgunned by tech-1 caldari newbies at 240km with tech-1 ammo.
CTD/con-loss vs. regular log-out. A proposal ... |
Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:29:00 -
[879]
I saw the writing on this wall a while back. Cal BS level 5 two days after patch. Already have the gunnery support skills, just need to work up to T2 Rails.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:54:00 -
[880]
Originally by: ShadowlordUK I understand that the abbaddon needed a balancing factor... and for some strange reason they chose cap... but tbh as time will tell... they over did it. Amarr needs SOME cap bonus otherwise it just doesnt work.
Amarr ships used to have a 5% per level cap bonus. This wasn't enough, so Amarr pilots went around with railguns and projectiles fitted (or occasionally mixed batteries of lasers and rails). So they changed the bonus to 10% to make lasers worth using again.
Now they introduce an Amarr gunship with ZERO cap bonus.
How come we can all see what's going to happen (again), but Tux can't?
- It's great flying Amarr, aint it? |
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Felxia
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.11.25 13:33:00 -
[881]
I'm fed up with the ne whyperion trying to be a blaster boat and the mega trying to be a sniper boat, they both fit the onther ones roles much better. I'll explain.
Megathron 7x Turrut Slots 4x Mid Slots 7x Low Slots
Megathron is supposed ot be a fleet ship, the bonuses suite the megathron, damage and tracking, fair enough. However I'D Like the megathron to have and extra mid and loose a slow slot if I was to have a "fleet" combat ship. Why? The low slt is irrelevent in fleet combat. The only thing you need in fleets is tracking, damage and a mix of ECM or whatever, plus speed boost and sensor boosters.
About the turrut slots, a blasterboat normally has a nos on, depends on what type of setup the person is trying to achive, the only reason for an extra gun on a blasterboar is damage over survivability. However the mega suites a blasterboat alot more because of it's low slots, they are NEEDED on a blasterboat.
Hyperion 8x Turrut Slots 5x Mid Slots 6x Low Slots
There is no real reason why you should pick the megathron over the hyperion when it comes ot fleet combat. The extra turrut gives a 12.5% dps increase. The tracking bonues is not that important as the fith midslot can handle a tracking computer or 2. In fleet combat the only important factor is getting asmuch damage to the other fleet as possible. With the mid slots ECM is nice, damps etc. FULL rack of 425mm Railgun II. The tracking bonues on the megathron wins with 7.5% over 1 tracking computer II that could be fitted in the hyperions extra midslot, which isn't much in a fleet fight as your shooting battleships. You also have an icreased cpu to paly with ECM modules.
The tanking bonues on the hyperion kind of forces it to tank meaning (imo) at least 2 reps, leaving a crappy 4 slots for damage control/plates/hardners etc. If this bonues was changed to something else t osomething that I would prefer resistence bonuses it would not force everyone to tank as the game on the test server is, "let's see who can fit the most nos and see who has the biggest tank game". I'm not trying to bring gank setups into the picture again however 1v1's that go on for at least 10 min, wtf?
The hyperions mid slot in a blaster type boat would be fitted with ECM, is this what ccp wants. Even though this patch will nerf ECM it still works as I've found out.
Grrr don't have a sig. |
Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.25 13:42:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Zixxa Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.
Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.
Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs. Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs). Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless. Remove this bonus at all and give it as present to Tux team. You will see NO DIFFERENCE for Rokh.
And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST a) smart fleet commander b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots c) effective intel Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs. But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.
Rock is best in fleet because with t2 weapons it's about the same as lets say, a t2 rail mega. As you get longer range you can put in more powerful ammo. Wtih t2 guns, the rokh wil lbe a scary sight.
As please stop your bull**** propaganda that caldari sucks and rip raven and all that. Noone will listen to you as your a simple troll. Explain facts and figures in a calm way. It's the only way you'll ever get to change anything.
High-Sec/0.0 PvP Recruitment |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:51:00 -
[883]
The Maelstrom¦s tanking bonus is nearly worthless as was pointed out in many posts above.
I doubt we will get any kind of range bonus and another damage bonus would be overpowered indeed.
The easiest and fairest variant would be a percent based shield resistance bonus, same as Rohk gets. This would also been boring so people had the idea of a shield HP bonus.
How much should this bonus be?
A 5%/lvl resist bonus equals a effective 33,33% HP increase.
See here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=431328
So assuming 10k base shield a 7,5 % shield bonus would leave the Mael with 13,75k shield and the Rohk with 13,33k effetive shield.
Sound fair on the first look, BUT the Mael¦s bonus is only an additional buffer and indirectly increases the passive recharge rate while the Rohk¦s bonus practically does the same PLUS makes an active tank more effective also.
So 7,5 % is not enough, 10% or even 12,5% would be fair.
Change Maelstrom boost bonus to 10%/12,5% shield HP per lvl to make it a usefull fleet ship that it was meant to be!
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.25 17:02:00 -
[884]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.
Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.
Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.
The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.
It might be well executed, but the Rokh stands out from the crowd in a very important aspect. The range bonus isn't truly balanced, because it is quite decisive and the other races lack a ship with comparable use. I don't say, give all the races a ship with a range bonus. That would be boring, obviously. But a bonus that makes them equally useful. Unfortunately now, that's a problem, since most fleet combat essentially is about range and sniper warfare. So when it comes to fleet combat, you're stuck with the range bonus - or changing fleet warfare.
Well, ok maybe leave the Rokh the way it is, as it's a well rounded concept, but perhaps reduce the range bonus to 7,5% or 5%. Or make up for the discrepancies with some intelligent balancing. For example the range bonus would be less decisive if ships were generally faster, so they could close in. One problem might be - ship range and damage exploded, but the ships' speed basically stayed the same.
In principle I agree with Tribunal. Two bonuses leave little room for well rounded combinations. Especially since almost all ships get a damage bonus.. Therefore, sticking with two of them, the bonuses have to be equally useful. That's pretty hard, and you can't really stick to the 5% scheme.
Just did a quick check, and in fact the 50% rage bonus at BS5 is superior to a 25% dmg bonus with regard to fleet ops. At least if it stays the way it is right now. The reason is, you can't by far compensate it as easily. Two magnetic field stabilizer II give a 47% dmg boost. Three tracking computer II give 41% range bonus. And those are active. Thus at the same range with similar fitting constrains the Rokh does more damage. It does less max dmg, sure, but that doesn't count in long range sniper warfare, and the difference is too big. 7,5% range bonus and an overall speed boost (probably decreased AB/MWD bonus) might make averything a lot more practicable.
well, my 2 cent
________________________ -Don't try to enforce your opinion by usage of multiple exclamation marks, question marks, CAPS or swear words. It doesn't work- |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.25 17:52:00 -
[885]
1) The standart long-range fleet combat will be measured at opti range of ships without range bonus. 2) The Rokh is more powerful when fights begin outside of standart long-range fleet combat while all other ships will overdamage it when they reach their opti. 3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed shots. 4) Rokh might be used to disable enemies support, but support has still the option to warp out because of Rokhs' low alpha strike. 5) Rokh follows the line of Caldari Spaceship Engineering for railgun ships. ------------------------- All non fleetOP Rokh setups are situational and in most of the times you will be able to escape. And for Gatecamping - the Rokh may engage at very high ranges, but a Mega/Pest will do this job much better due to higher alpha strike needed to plop your targets faster. Even though....gatecamping will be much lesser due to warp-to-0km.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.25 18:54:00 -
[886]
I couldn't really care less about the Rokh and I'm certainly not pushing Railguns or Caldari Battleship for it, cause it'll get nerft once they realize how utterly broken it is and how they reduced every other races bs to "Support"
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Lisa Run
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Posted - 2006.11.25 19:04:00 -
[887]
Edited by: Lisa Run on 25/11/2006 19:05:20
Originally by: Asariasha
3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed shots.
Rokh get's more range out of a given ammo, so it can use a more damaging ammo to achieve a certain range. So the rokh can convert it's opti-range bonus into a damage bonus.
And since you mentioned tracking: If the rokh can use tech-1 ammo for all ranges and the other ships need to use tech-2 ammo, then the ships with tech-2 ammo are reduced to 1/4th tracking. ( Except the modifier changes in Kali ). Ok, doesn't matter, when BS snipe eachother, but it makes a difference with incoming ceptors for example. 4 times better tracking = you can hit interceptors with 4-times higher transversal speed at a given range ofc.
___________________________ ! Post under construction ! |
Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.25 19:29:00 -
[888]
I see your D2 tag, but have you ever been in a fleet battle? I'm only asking because I am seeing a whole bunch of signs that you are very inexperienced with how fleet combat goes.
Originally by: Asariasha 1) The standart long-range fleet combat will be measured at opti range of ships without range bonus.
Um? Now why would a fleet consisting of mostly Rokhs start off combat at a range that doesn't take advantage of their optimal bonus?
Quote: 2) The Rokh is more powerful when fights begin outside of standart long-range fleet combat while all other ships will overdamage it when they reach their opti.
And how are they going to reach their optimal again? MWD to the rokhs? Or perhaps the non-Rokh fleet has a cov-ops that can instantly appear on the Rokh fleet!
Quote: 3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed shots.
You don't need a tracking bonus in a long ranged fleet battle. Even if, in a magical land far, far away, tracking was a big issue in long ranged fleet battles I'm sure that you could find a spot for a tracking computer in your 6 mid slots.
Quote: 4) Rokh might be used to disable enemies support, but support has still the option to warp out because of Rokhs' low alpha strike.
Or they might be used to kill the other fleets battleships, you know, the battleships that can't shoot back because the Rokhs are out of range
Quote: 5) Rokh follows the line of Caldari Spaceship Engineering for railgun ships.
Unbalanced bonuses are now ok if they follow the "line" of ships before it. I will have to remember that.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.25 20:19:00 -
[889]
Revelations release does not mean that there will only be Rokhs out there as only battleship and even if all players in EvE wanted to switch to Rokh they would have to train some skills for a long long time considering that Amarr/Minmatar players usually do not fit Railguns. So the Rokhs we will see at first will have to stay with the rest of the fleet.
Also fleet combat does not mean that you always fight at long range where tracking isn't a big issue as you noted. Many engagements are won just because of a good covert pilot managing to give his fleet a good warp in to the hostile fleet for close range - has nothing to do with magic.
Also you should take in consideration that as usual the Rokh as Caldari ship has got the biggest signature radius. Last screenshot I saw (500m Rokh) while for example a Megathron has only 400m or a Tempest with only 340m. And exactly this is the point when tracking comes into the game, especially when the opposing fleets movement cause higher transversal speeds. Of course you can fit tracking comps, and Im really interested on how they will effect the above mentioned fact.
And about unbalanced bonus - no one cared about the other Caldari ships which had these boni all the time. But now that some players mention hey, opti range isnt that bad, everybody comes out and cries for a nerf bat even without taking all pros & cons in consideration. Revelations itself will change the whole gameplay and yet too many people stick to old gameplay and tend not to view on ships out of different perspectives.
And yes, I have already been in fleet battles, but I must add that I had a longer break.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.25 21:28:00 -
[890]
Originally by: Asariasha Revelations release does not mean that there will only be Rokhs out there as only battleship and even if all players in EvE wanted to switch to Rokh they would have to train some skills for a long long time considering that Amarr/Minmatar players usually do not fit Railguns. So the Rokhs we will see at first will have to stay with the rest of the fleet.
There have been threads in IAC boards saying that people need to train up for the Rokh for months now. The hardcore PvPers that take part in fleet battles have it trained for it already, at least the ones that have payed attention.
Let me also point out that it takes MUCH less time to train a Rokh up to shoot outside of everyother ships range, even with those ships using tech 2 ammo. A Rokh does not require tech 2 guns to outrange every other ship.
Quote: Also fleet combat does not mean that you always fight at long range where tracking isn't a big issue as you noted. Many engagements are won just because of a good covert pilot managing to give his fleet a good warp in to the hostile fleet for close range - has nothing to do with magic.
The only time fleet combat occurs at mid to short range is when a fleet has to hurry to do something or someone screws up.
Getting a cov-ops onto another fleet is not that easy, because fleets don't sit in one spot for long. If a fleet has to rely on a cov-ops to win a fleet battle then I will bet large sums of isk that, that is a dead fleet.
Quote: should take in consideration that as usual the Rokh as Caldari ship has got the biggest signature radius. Last screenshot I saw (500m Rokh) while for example a Megathron has only 400m or a Tempest with only 340m.
A sig radius does not matter in a fleet fight between battleships. A Pest will pop just as fast as a Rohk.
Quote: And about unbalanced bonus - no one cared about theother Caldari ships which had these boni all the time.
Do the other ships optimal bonus put their range outside of every other ship's range in the game? The answer is no, so no one had a big problem with them.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
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BugxEarl
Amarr Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.26 02:05:00 -
[891]
Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 15:51:00 -
[892]
Originally by: BugxEarl Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.
Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?
CEO - Art of War
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 17:12:00 -
[893]
Originally by: Nebuli Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?
Rohk dps is not great, but it is by all means not that low. To be exact, 1 rohk has 91% of the dps of a (fully skilled) mega. Thats nothing to laugh at.
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Amuko
Amarr A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.11.26 19:22:00 -
[894]
Originally by: Nebuli Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nebuli Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?
Rohk dps is not great, but it is by all means not that low. To be exact, 1 rohk has 91% of the dps of a (fully skilled) mega. Thats nothing to laugh at.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 21:43:00 -
[895]
Uuups
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Bre-X
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:27:00 -
[896]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.
How? They cannot reach it's range.
Let's even say both fleets get the jump on each other equally often enough.
- Megas jump the rohks. Rohks get killed, but they *will* also take a good part of the megas with them - Rohks jump the megas. Megas will get killed, with *zero* losses for the rohks. Because the megas cannot reach them.
The advantage still lies on the rohk fleet.
Quote: Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).
You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't. The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them. There is a little difference between having only the t2 fitted rohks in the other fleet being able to fire back and having every t2 fitted bs and t1 & t2 fitted rohk fireing on you.
Quote: Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.
Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.
The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.
Quote: And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST a) smart fleet commander b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots c) effective intel Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs. But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.
And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.
And, as said said Rohks have the advantage here. If they are encountered flatfooted they will prolly loose, but they also WILL inflict damage. And if they catch the other side flatfooted the will win without suffering *any* damage.
YOu are right in one point, though. The only counter vs rohks are not only your own rohks, having a better fleetcommander and intel so you can outmaneuvre them is another counter.
But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions. A fleet of rohks will loose if you let your corp village idiot command them with stellar tactics like "we warp to them and attack". But if you do not chosoe a good fleetcommander you deserve to die. Also, a fleet of rohks will likely loose if you face a better fleetcommander and better intel. But so will any other fleet, too. However, if your FC actually has a brain and he and your intel are at least as good as that of the enemy the side with more rohks has a definite advantage.
Simple to get close to the rokhs just use a cov ops or to that are cloaked.... warp to him at your optimal and unleash h3ll total pwnage =P you get more dps and will drop the uber ranged ships that you "can't get close enough to" with relative ease.... total amount of time it takes for a decent cov ops pilot to get into position is 2 minutes crossing quite a long distance ;) You need to think out side of the box... Also a good fleet commander knows these things and will put them into practice. Superior tactics are always more worth while then numbers, kits, or ships. Always have tacklers/scouts. ---------------------------------------- http://www.oldnumber7.com/forumpic.gif Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:43:00 -
[897]
In relation to Tribunals note "in fleet fights sig radius doesn't matter..."
Well, I played around a bit with the tracking guide tool. If you consider the different signature radi and Megathrons given tracking bonus I came up with the following results:
transversal velocity: 250m/s (worst case, ships flying in opposite directions); ship boni at BS5 target signature radius: 500 for all except Rokh(400) weapon signature radius: 400 ammo: 50% range bonus
range 40km chance to hit: Rokh ~75% Mega ~93%
range 60km chance to hit: Rokh ~86% Mega ~96%
range Mega opti: Rokh ~93% Mega ~98%
range Rokh opti: Rokh ~97% Mega ~10%
This is just a theoretical comparison to show that a Rokh fleet has got it's weak point in close range fights. Of course I have to admit that fleet fights mainly are fought at long range. However, many of you might have experienced how devastating an all of a sudden close ranged attack is when your covert pilot manages to get in position.
Greets Asa
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:00:00 -
[898]
Originally by: Asariasha However, many of you might have experienced how devastating an all of a sudden close ranged attack is when your covert pilot manages to get in position.
Yes, but that is only possible by (huge) blind luck (or seeding the area with 20 cov ops pilots, but that are 20 potential BS pilots you have less) or by a dumb enemy (let's sit at this sniperspot for 10 minutes/let's reuse our old spots continuously).
It's nothing you can rely on.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:25:00 -
[899]
Ancient military axiom ; he who controls the range of a fight - controls the fight. The Rohk enables you to hit and not be hit with T1 weapons. This is an immense tactical advantage in fleet combat, irrespective of the damage being done as it forces the opponent to react or die. If they cannot shoot back, they will die - there only option is to warp off.
The l33t tactic (10 Rohks against any other race)is to warp in at your 200km plus optimal while you dictor pilot drops a bubble on some poor *******. Losses - one dictor; Kills - the poor outranged, trapped fleet. Even worse if they have a carrier in the front line that gets jammed by an uber skilled scorpion pilot. Imagine the look on his face when he realises he is bubbled and and a fleet on inty's is inbound to drop 50 fighters on him.
Caldari fleet operations - the new I Win button in Fleet operations. Why fly anything else?
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Akiman
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:34:00 -
[900]
Originally by: Gragnor Ancient military axiom ; he who controls the range of a fight - controls the fight. The Rohk enables you to hit and not be hit with T1 weapons. This is an immense tactical advantage in fleet combat, irrespective of the damage being done as it forces the opponent to react or die. If they cannot shoot back, they will die - there only option is to warp off.
The l33t tactic (10 Rohks against any other race)is to warp in at your 200km plus optimal while you dictor pilot drops a bubble on some poor *******. Losses - one dictor; Kills - the poor outranged, trapped fleet. Even worse if they have a carrier in the front line that gets jammed by an uber skilled scorpion pilot. Imagine the look on his face when he realises he is bubbled and and a fleet on inty's is inbound to drop 50 fighters on him.
Caldari fleet operations - the new I Win button in Fleet operations. Why fly anything else?
simple and true...but nooooo it doesnt make uber dps so it suxxxxxx...dpsdpspdpspdpspdps thats all matters aint it? and dont give more dps to hype too...becouse its a close range ship...it can warp away anytime anyway(!)
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General Novartic
Minmatar The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:00:00 -
[901]
humm, how intresting..
Anyways. Who here would be able to get the maelstrom BPO and make a maelstrom up for me. :D Please start offers. Lowest Bid one gets to make it for me. http://www.n-computers.co.uk/other/eve/evesig.jpg
signature removed (max dimensions 120px * 400px) - please email us if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected]) |
Azuse
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Posted - 2006.11.27 15:37:00 -
[902]
Same with the bs, the rokh is a superb sniper at 250/300km, youll also find it fantastic at 12km with blasters and full tank. Compair this with the hyperion, again its a decent sniper, better than the thron if you fit right (oh the irony) it losses 25m drone space (so only 4 heavys vs. thorns 5) it also gain an extra turret, which we all love because it also has the throns grid and fitting 7 turret on that is almost impossible without an rcu i.e compramising tank so to compensate you take away 2 lows making it harder to fit, genius. So its got a rep bonus, great so we fit 2 reps and have 4 slots to tank, plus our rcus, and the iceing on the cake of course is that 8 guns leaves no room for nos (and a blaster, no matter how deluded the piolt is, wont run on boosters alone if its using hardeners and theres not much options with those lows). p.s. the thorns still outdammages it, and with these rigs plus 2 additional lows it also out tanks it now.
So in summary weve got now ships tha dont know what therye ment to be, cost 50 mil more (80 if the insurace is accurate) and do less dammage across all the races, exept caldari which are now the ranged race with the best blasters.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:57:00 -
[903]
I personally don't care anymore.
My Rokh will be in my hanger by the end of the week fitted with tech 2 425s for fleet combat. I just feel sorry for the other people who wasted their time training something besides hybrids to tech 2.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Unuthiel
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.29 21:59:00 -
[904]
Originally by: Raste T2 snipers get range nerfed, and in the same motion Caldari get a range bonus on a sniping ship? Give me a break.
Exactly. The devs nerf T2 sniping ammo, then give the Caldari a ship that outranges T2 sniper setups with *T1* guns and ammo. That's just ridiculous.
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:16:00 -
[905]
It¦s amusing to see you discuss here. Two fleets trying to outrange each other: both wait at safespot for the other one to warp to a gate, stay there outside of jumprange and wait 15 minutes for your covert to get in a good angle and position.
ANY Fleetcommander/Allianceleader boring his Fleet to death by not getting any good engagement at all for hours, will notice his participationnumbers dropping pretty much in the long term.
The times when you could outrange an uncoordinated noob-fleet at some gate providing you an easy target without them warping off are definitly over.
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