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The Enslaver
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:35:00 -
[151]
 Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
And you can control who posts on the forums. Players in the core Goonfleet corporations (Fleet, Waffe, Platoon) are not allowed to post on the forums CA&OD, lest they face severe fines and shunning, and if they continue, they get the boot. For the exception of a clueless newbie, or someone who was explicitly told they could post, I don't see goons posting in CA&OD.
Is that why you don't post with your GoonFleet character, Targaine?
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:40:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Audrea
Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:
When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
Much different.
If you don't want the enemy fleet to warp out you drop a bubble on them or send the support to tackle them, or in the case of ASCN, wait for them to bubble themselves.
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?
Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place
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Darcuese
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:43:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Darcuese on 27/10/2006 15:45:37
Originally by: Shyalud
Those that can't adapt become extinct.
It's a horrible mistake not to learn your enemies tactics and use them against them. The tactic may stink (and it does) but if your enemy is useing it, and taking "the higher road" means you lose with honor means, well, you lose.
As far as the WCS argument...it's stupid. If you don't want people to use WCS then don't use scramblers. It's simply not fair to provide an attack in game that there is no defence for.
Learn how to counter a tactic, not how to ***** about it. If it's a successfull tactic, no amount of public outcry or opinion is going to change it anyway.
Originally by: Audrea
Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:
When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
omg
IF YOU SEE ME WHINING OR NERVOUS THEN THERE ARE IDIOTS NEAR BY |
Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:45:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Audrea
Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:
When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
Maneuvering in the battlefield to get out and come back later, it is totally in game and can be countered by the use of scramblers and 'dicter bubbles. Logging off to save ones assets is using an out of game method to accomplish the same and cannot be countered.
So yes they are completely different as one is playing within the game mechanics and one is meta gaming. Am surprised you don't see this Audrea.
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SwindonBadger
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:48:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Audrea
Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:
When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
if u cant get a tackler/ dictor to get a point/buble on them they should be able to warp out, loggin off in a buble cos ur loosing/about to loose a fight esp when cought in a bubble is quite differnet, if u cant see that.... then get some glasses.
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Zimi Vlasic
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:53:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Audrea
Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:
When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
ahahahahahahahahaha
apples and oranges!
Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer |
Daald
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:05:00 -
[157]
I think it boils down to human nature.
People don't like others to have power over them. If you are a carebear, you will eventually get fed up being mocked and killed so you will fit guns and become that person.
I believe it is the same case here. I also believe that killboards only add to the problem since they are basically a tool used by some simply to stroke their e-peen or put other groups down. Remember every action has a re-action. You are seeing some of that re-action. It will only get worse.
___________________________________________
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-Murphy |
Happydayz
FATAL REVELATIONS
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:27:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Happydayz on 27/10/2006 16:27:21
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Of course you can control what other players do. If Nebba or Chow sent out an evemail that said "Any players that are reported as having ctrl+q'd will receive a warning. After that, they get the boot", it would stop. If any alliance did that, and enforced it, the behavior would stop, or some people would find themselves in empire.
I think that you know as well as I do that if any alliance implemented that policy their opponents would immediately take advantage of it in order to foster internal drama and try to get innocent players kicked from their corp. I could see how it would easily turn into a state of affairs where every battle is recorded via FRAPS and the after action video intensely looked over for anyone even remotely looking suspicious, whether justified or not. Frankly I don't want to play in that kind of game environment where battles shift to primarily out of game experiences as opposed to just in game.
It's a ****ty state of affairs but that is what CCP has bequeathed to its player base. And frankly with what is at stake in alliance warfare today, that is literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of virtual goods, it is naive to believe that players can internally police each other up without trying to take advantage of one another. I don't trust RA/Goonfleet to monitor LV pilots in keeping them honest, and I wouldnt expect the same from you guys either. The onus is entirely on CCP to fix this problem.
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chromer one
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:27:00 -
[159]
Im kinda amused that logging off in battle is raised to be a matter in our alliance.
As like ours, most alliances dont kick people using that tactic but condemn it as sad behaviour.
A alliance leader giving warnings about that, imo lowers authority of a leader. i think thats why it isn't such a matter in LV and have risen in to discussions.
I think all alliances have certain pilots who for some reason do this even if the majority dislikes it. If it is a common tactic then it's a different story.
Some alliances have bad reputation due this kind of fleet usage. some dont.
It tells much about a character if hes willing to push game out of borders and use out of game mechanics to win/survive. It isnt much different as wallhack or some other cheat in other internet-games.
It is sad and allways rise a moan. but some people need victory more than others. some need entertainment wich is what im loking from this game.
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Dammar
Ephorate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:32:00 -
[160]
um, I am a so called "quakekiddie", and I must say I take offence to that generalization though I know where you're coming from by saying it.
I was hardcore into quake 2 and 3 during their primes and have no doubt I could kick pretty much anyones ass in them when I was peaking. However, I was also one the first people(that I knew of) to very vocally abuse anyone doing anything even remotely close to cheating.
There were gray lines of course...tweaking the config was pretty much ok, but changing the gfx (bright skins, etc) or things like that and I would chew them a new hole. I played the game as close to stock as I could stand too(full textures), and I loved rubbing that into peoples faces assuming they deserved it.
TL;DR I think the word you are looking for is "CSkiddies". 
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sMoKe AU
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:57:00 -
[161]
Ok well a lot of you are pointing out that what if it's a disconnect and not a ctrl-q. But lets face it. If you are in a bubble in anything above smaller class ships the chances of getting away is low (yes a general assumption) therefore even if you didn't disconnect the chances of getting out alive is low. I for one would be more then happy to lose a couple of ships due to a real disconnect if it meant getting rid of log offs. |
Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:02:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Audrea
BLAH BLAH BLAH....
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
Yes
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:37:00 -
[163]
Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
And you can control who posts on the forums. Players in the core Goonfleet corporations (Fleet, Waffe, Platoon) are not allowed to post on the forums CA&OD, lest they face severe fines and shunning, and if they continue, they get the boot. For the exception of a clueless newbie, or someone who was explicitly told they could post, I don't see goons posting in CA&OD.
Is that why you don't post with your GoonFleet character, Targaine?
Try again. I sold Targaine months ago before ERA even left Cache.
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.10.27 18:05:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 27/10/2006 18:06:38
CCP needs to fix their ****. My corp petitioned dictor bubbles the first week they came out, and I've petitioned/posted about log out problems and solutions many times.
The bottom line is: If people CAN use these tactics they WILL use these tactics. I don't condone the use of such tactics, but can you really ask somebody to let their freighter full of zydrine die when they know that logging out will save it? Most people have a price, and with super lame logout tactics being so well known and so effective, most people will do it when they stand to lose billions.
Good original post, but I really think its CCP's job to fix the game. You can't expect the russians to play with honor.
Shamis
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Marko Debreault
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.10.27 18:32:00 -
[165]
Any form of metagaming is not permitted in Outbreak. Logging to gain an advantage or avoid repercussions is not permitted.
Respectable corps and organizations who want to achieve great things need to hold themselves to high standards like this. If they do not, they will never be capable of reaching their true potential.
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SATAN
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:04:00 -
[166]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Having been in 0.0 for the last 3 contracts, I have seen a worrying trend developing.
It would seem it is completely normal now to CTRL Q to avoid bubble camps.... I mean it is actually the chosen tactic!
I have seen LV/V do it a few times already over the past few days, and the order was given last night for Goons/RA etc to do it if they jump into a bubble....
I see that LV/V have also joined the Logoff trap brigade... is it so that because RA openly do it you feel you need to use it to combat that approach?
Also Purposely crashing (or hoping like fk that it happens) the Node is also now a viable tactic, employed by both sides of the war KIA are currently in... damn guys why on earth are we trying to do that? yes you gain an advantage if you just jumped in but serioulsy :( (for those that don't know after a node crash everyone is returned to thier last point of a session change, so a large force jumping in will be returned to the gate they jumped in at, and unless the defending force have prepared for it, then thier pilots will be returned all over the shop, normally resulting in big losses)
I was speaking to a few other CEOs and Alliance leaders last night, and they also say that they have not only seen the above from their current enemy, but are also not shy to order it if necessary.
This has honestly and sincerely saddened me.
For people to be embracing en masse obvious exploiting of the games shortcomings (although why CCP are avoiding dealing with them I have no idea.... if someone logs of in a bubble, then they should stay put for crying out loud) makes me wander where this game is going.
In all my time of playing Eve, the larger groups have generally frowned upon the shadier way of playing the game, logging off to save your ships etc has always been a distinct no no, as have many other less fair ways to play.
Maybe i am seeing the past through rose tinted glasses, maybe my memory is skewed, but not too long ago people employing such tactics as these would be regarded as a.scum (hehe, joking) but more importantly b.the minority
Not anymore it seems.
What for the future of Eve, if people will push the game and its mechanics to the very limit to gain an advantage....... reminds me so very much of the days gone by in the FPS world, starts with model replacements then bright coloured models, textureless walls, hit box scanning.... aimbots.... etc etc
Hope CCP have this in mind, whilst I am very excited about Kali, I cant help but feel their are some very basic problems that need looking at first, its getting harder and harder to get a "fair" fight or even a fight where your not worried about wtf your gonna have to do to avoid losing your entire fleet to a tactic your not willing to employ yourself....
Times have changed? Do we all need to adapt? I hope not.
We just finished a tour de south and the logout tactics to escape bubbles/scrambling is strong down there. Believe it or not ASCN is not that bad when compared to LV and their slaves, but nothing I mean nothing compares to the north.
I would say 1 out of 3 people in EC log out when in a bubble, its difficult to describe how absolutly lame this is. And CCP says it is not an exploit nor is it punishable in any way. Now imagine Kali with ships hp being 50% more/better tanks/and ships do less damage.
This tactic is going to become a nightmare all over eve, and ccp dont seem to be too concerned.
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Imode
Band of Builders Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:17:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Audrea
Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:
When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?
lol
so if my hauler warps away before you can scramble it then that's an exploit?
h4xx!
____________________________
Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
Corey Grim
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:24:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Imode
lol
so if my hauler warps away before you can scramble it then that's an exploit?
h4xx!
omg some ppl can be arrogant and clueless teenager lame cheaters.
go back play counterstrike.
My latest Video:
Hysteria |
Choi
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:29:00 -
[169]
while ive never done this as I dont put myself in these kind of situations, in the state eve is in, I wouldn't see cntrl-Q'ing immoral if all you do is lag out. Why waste ships and mods because ccp's servers have been ****e recently? No one really wants to have to unplug their ****, plug it back in just to see that they've been podded and sent back to empire bubble or no if youre screen doesnt load then who really gives a flying fig then right?
In terms of avoiding camps or other completely legit things not under said lagy circumstances then it should be punishable somehow but since theres no way to prove you intentionally avoided it ( kinda like how they cant tell how you lost a ship to ctd or something .  ) I guess theres little ccp can do in that direction.
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:33:00 -
[170]
Originally by: SATAN
I would say 1 out of 3 people in EC log out when in a bubble, its difficult to describe how absolutly lame this is.
I'm actually suprised the rate was that high, although it does happen to us alot there too. But I can see it happening more frequently against you guys as you rely more on the suprise factor of a cloaked dictor in a unassociated corp to trap victims in the bubble.
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?
Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:44:00 -
[171]
This thread started out nicely and now it turned into a jerry springer episode where differenrt parties are now yelling at each other " Sit down W****e" , only thing is left is to call out Steve AKA Abdalion
"There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
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cruxix
Caldari
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:46:00 -
[172]
heres an option.. There is NO reason that ccp couldnt cause hitting ctrl-q to trigger a message to be sent to teh server.. sure you may not be able to stop people from doing a ctrl-alt-delete but it would at least be a way to seperate people who are trying to log superquick to avoid getting ganked from those who dropped due to natural causes... once you have that message ccp could act on it and either impose a 15 minute aggro timer or if they really want to stay out of the ethical side of it simply have it be something that CEO's can view/monitor for their corp... that way you could at least TELL if you have players doing it... granted it wont stop people from doing it when its corp endorced but it would at least give some visability into it...
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Ronja Mistysdottir
Norsk Gruvedrift
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:48:00 -
[173]
To be honest, logging off have never saved my ship. Ship will stay there for 2 minuttes, more than the time anyone need to shoot it to pieces.
If I believed logging out would save me, I would hit CTRL+Q any time. Why? I am a hauler alt. I am not here to make someone have fun. I am here to move stuff from A to B. Now, my PvP ships I would not log off. Simply because I am out to PvP. However, if I can annoy someone that attacks my ship beyond belief, simply by logging off my hauler, then I will do it. I will do it 10 times in a row if I where able to.
CCP can fix this quite easy. Simply make ships stay cloaked and imobile for 5 minuttes after logging on in space. The code are allready there for the cyno-generators. Will ruin the logoffski / loggonski traps. It will also make it a LOT harder for someone that have logged off to save they're pod, to get away. It will infact, give the 'killers' of the ship 5 minuttes to deploy a warp-bubble where the ship died, and then they get the pod aswell, IF they controll the system.
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:52:00 -
[174]
Originally by: cruxix
heres an option.. There is NO reason that ccp couldnt cause hitting ctrl-q to trigger a message to be sent to teh server.. sure you may not be able to stop people from doing a ctrl-alt-delete but it would at least be a way to seperate people who are trying to log superquick to avoid getting ganked from those who dropped due to natural causes... once you have that message ccp could act on it and either impose a 15 minute aggro timer or if they really want to stay out of the ethical side of it simply have it be something that CEO's can view/monitor for their corp... that way you could at least TELL if you have players doing it... granted it wont stop people from doing it when its corp endorced but it would at least give some visability into it...
That won't work at all. people will just remove the little clippy thing from their RJ45 cable so they can pull the plug out of the router that much easier...
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Corey Grim
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Corey Grim on 27/10/2006 20:03:20
for those wondering what CCP can do about this issue jump to page 3 and read my first post on that page.
yes the solution is harhs yes the solution will not please everyone, but its solution for this problem imo, someone might/will figure out how to avoid those things and do the logoffski but at least CCP should do it as hard as possible to keep this game together.
My latest Video:
Hysteria |
OReilly
Amarr
NEWS CORPORATION
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Posted - 2006.10.27 20:51:00 -
[176]
At least CCP can warn/punish the people who do this tactic when they r more than 5 in same jump gate...
When a gang jump and logoff this should be considered like using this exploit.
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grappler
Chosen Path
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:24:00 -
[177]
Originally by: WiZZyWiGG
Great post.
Something really needs to be done about people Ctrl-Q'ing to save themselves.
couldnt agree more, and it is standard tactic for the goons. missed many kills caus eof this crap
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Dammar
Ephorate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:36:00 -
[178]
I don't think any solution that involves CCP having to enforce by hand on a case by case basis is...sane by any means. Too much work.
What is needed is a change of the rules. What exactly I don't know, but then I'm not paid to know. 
One thing I see people holding onto as a sort of burning cross is the whole "my computer/connection sucks." Well guess what? In the same way support for Windows98 has been terminated(utterly, I might add), so could support of your systems.
In the end, there is no easy answers. All there is is the comedy/sadness of reading/see'ing people justify their unsavory actions.
A CCP dev in an interview recently said the average age of EVE players was 27. Well you sure wouldn't know it by reading these forums.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 22:01:00 -
[179]
Any tactics that would be used if eve=RL is legit. I believe this is the core concept in defining the difference between exploits/cheap tactics and fair play. Any tactics that involve the use of external forces (sever lag, logging off, etc) are both cheap and exploitive. Any tactics thatinvolve the use of internal forces ONLY are all completly valid and are fair play. This is the basic minimum standard all corps/alliances should play by.
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Then a BoB guy complains about the same. Well, I could call using TS spies and forum spies equally lame, abusive and unwanted behaviour, but I guess you don't agree with me there, do you? Or convo spamming? Not a problem I guess, but CTRL-Q is the devil, right?
Everyone(not just ASCN) really needs to quit saying things are exploits/cheap that are not. Just because you dont like something doesnt make it cheap.Rather than thinking about what you like and do not like about someones game play think about why you consider something an cheap/exploitive.
Why is convo spamming, CRTL-Q, or lag bombing an exploit? They are exploits because in real combat they would be things you cannot do. examples;
1) In RL if you get into a fight you can not cease to exist for a while if you are losing. Therefore CTRL-Q = exploit.
2) If you try to avoid getting mugged you can not have a bunch of short conversations with the mugger to prevent him from stabbing you while you try to get away. Therefore convo spamming = exploit.
3) If you are under attack in an RL situation you can not print out a bunch of napquest directions and throw them up in the air to make your attack cease to exist(crash). Therefore lagbombing = exploit. All these things use external forces to achieve a goal which means they are cheap/exploitive in nature.
Why ts/forum spying, ts/forum invasions, and burn eden tactics, are RA pos spamming all are not exploitive/cheap? Same formula works. Examples;
1) In a real galactic war people would almost definatly intercept communications, produce counterintelligence, and use psycological warfare to gain an advantage. These are all quite common in traditional warfare. Which means spying = Valid tactic.
2) Alot of people consider burn eden's use of WCS's maybe not an exploit but a cheap tactic. Warp core stabilizers are in fact a real module in eve. If eve was real then WCS's would be real. Same goes for RA pos spamming. Pos soverignty is an in game mechanic that RA uses exatly as intended. The use of any item or tactic that could be used if eve were real is neither cheap or exploitive. So BE tactics/RA pos spamming = completly vaid. All these things while they are hard to deal with they are tactcis based on manipulating forces INSIDE the server which makes them 100% legit.
Please everyone, you need to quit comparing tactics that abuse or are intended to manipulate external forces with tactics that you just dont like them. You not liking something does not make it exploitive in nature. Using items/game fuctions in ways they may not be intended for is not exploitive as long as the method used is realistic to a real warfare situation. Too many people are complaining about legitimate tactics just because they arent skilled/creative enough to counter them.
So please, when you think someone is exploiting or playing cheap tactics think about why you consider it is cheap/exploitive first. Is it really something not fair or do you just not like it because you got owned?
Same goes for the tactics your corp/alliance uses. Before you act, think about whether what you are doing is something that could be done if eve were real or are you using external forces that you could not use in a realistic situation.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 22:14:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Waragha
So when you and goon brought 150-200 odd people to take down our pos, where maybe 13 of them
were BS and the rest was frigs and cruisers ... You didn't intentionally try to crash the node?
(we had like 40 man fleet or so)
Alliances like ASCN and goonfleet rely on superior numbers to accomplish their military objectives. There is absolutly nothing wrong with this. The only unfair thing about it is that lag/crashes somewhat limit what alliances like ASCN/GS can do with those superior numbers. IMO the situation you described is more unfair for GS than for you. GS relies on superior numbers, they are punished more by lag/crashes than anyone else.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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