Originally by: Selenaya

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The biggest problem is CCP can't decide if a player crashed per accident or on purpose... sometimes it may be obvious but still you can't know for sure...

Is there a solution?

For example make ships stay a lot longer in space, so the logged of fleet is just a sitting duck.
If you want to log off save make a timer like in other games "you have to wait 30 sec to log off safe..."
or something like that...

just coplaining won't work.
post your ideas

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Originally by: Selenaya

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The biggest problem is CCP can't decide if a player crashed per accident or on purpose... sometimes it may be obvious but still you can't know for sure...

Is there a solution?

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Originally by: Darcuese

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Well, some ppl have crap PC, some have crap cionnections...harsh reality.
Why would everyone else suffer in game becouse of such?.
And im one of those that lose connection sometimes...and probably everybody else.

ITS CALLED BAD LUCK....LOSS...GET OVER IT. Or petition

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Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel

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Good post eddz but i have a question for ya , where have u been in the past few months ???? When i joined BNC and we were in PB every single ship that used to jump into our dictor bubble logs off or if he gets scrambeled he logs his pod off as soon as his ship pops.

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Originally by: Trepkos

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The only difference between GS and NPC's are that GS respawn quicker.

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Originally by: Waragha

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So when you and goon brought 150-200 odd people to take down our pos, where maybe 13 of them
were BS and the rest was frigs and cruisers ... You didn't intentionally try to crash the node?

(we had like 40 man fleet or so)

Integrity.. where has it gone

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Originally by: Waragha

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So when you and goon brought 150-200 odd people to take down our pos, where maybe 13 of them
were BS and the rest was frigs and cruisers ... You didn't intentionally try to crash the node?

(we had like 40 man fleet or so)

Integrity.. where has it gone

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Originally by: Steel Rat

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Well, Eve has always had people push the game mechanics to the limit. Remember Mo0 and who was it, Zombies? with their empire antics. I think the difference today and those days is:

1. The killboards, everyone counts their kills, its like the most important thing in the game for alot of people.

There is a reason I say my killboard is to record KILLS because I play this game for fun. This game isn't about my win/loss ratio its about how fun the fight was, win or lose. I think killboards ruin some of that fun. It also reflects on how people play.

2. More people know more of the tricks and share them with more people. The code is stale. CCP has done half as many changes today as back when retail started. This leads to everyone using "lame" and questionable tactics.

This topic is such a two edge sword. I have never purposely logged off for any reason involving combat. I think my kill ratio would show that :) I have never purposely used any bug or exploit, its not how I play games. As a CEO, exploits are kickable offenses in my corp and alliance. Now, questionable, borderline "exploits", lameness, I have a hard time with especially when they are used so often in the game. Your members don't want to play if they are always getting owned by questionable tactics and yet they are being used by some pretty respected people. How can you argue against it? How can you tell them not to do something thats being done to them? If you play 100% to the letter of the law with honor and goodwill, you get smacked, you don't, you get smacked, so its really up to the community to smack all equally and demand better playing from everyone, not just the ones you hate.

3. In my opinion, we have a younger crowd or more of an FPS type crowd.

I refer to these people as quakekiddies. The group that jumps, gets a couple cheap ganks and runs. Its very rare you find the good fun fights of the old days. Wanna know why so many people liked the old days? Because when we fought, outnumbered, even numbered, whatever, we fought. We didn't just gank, run and log. Some fights with DDC and Corp 1 were nuts as we went back and forth for 30-40 mins. 1 side would pwn a fleet, the other side would send another fleet, they would fight it out, it was crazy, some of the best fighting I have ever had in Eve. It was just different than it is today. We got better toys today and less fun. I can only account it to the people.

One last point, I don't think CCP are paying or seem to pay as much attention to the game play as they did when the game started. Sometimes you wonder if CCP plays the same game we do. Maybe its just how the game is evolving and we are hitting a point where they don't have all the answers. The problems aren't as easy to solve as the begin days when the bugs were easier to fix? Eve has evolved to a pretty intense game with many many areas that need to be watched. I can understand it being a rough job.

Steel Rat

PS: None of my comments are directed towards ANY of the current hostiles AXE is fighting. These are general points of view based on what I have seen over the last 6 months to a year. Many people do many of these things and I am not singling out any 1 group here. I know even some of my members have done questionable things. Trust me, many of them are no longer DDC and many of them have been dealt with by me. I try to keep some level of fair play as best I can.

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Originally by: WiZZyWiGG

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Great post.

Something really needs to be done about people Ctrl-Q'ing to save themselves.

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Originally by: Hans Roaming

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These numbers should in no way crash a node am thinking that your opponents were thinking the same as me.

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Originally by: Seleene

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Edited by: Seleene on 27/10/2006 09:46:04



The Evil Pirates in 9UY (did you guys ever have a catchy name?)

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Originally by: Steel Rat

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.

3. In my opinion, we have a younger crowd or more of an FPS type crowd.

I refer to these people as quakekiddies. The group that jumps, gets a couple cheap ganks and runs.

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Originally by: Valen L'eganas

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Their have been made several suggestions which could work to solve the issue, but they all are blocked by one thing; how does EVE know someone is "CTRL-Q-ing" or that an ISP pulled out the plug because the player forgot to pay his invoice?

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Originally by: WiZZyWiGG

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Great post.

Something really needs to be done about people Ctrl-Q'ing to save themselves.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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a worrying trend developing

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Quote:

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employing such tactics as these would be regarded as a.scum

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Originally by: shakaZ XIV

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Ok so what it boils down to is this:

1) Aggro timer needs to be applied aswell AFTER people log off.

2) Warp bubbles should still work on ships whose pilots logged off.

Problem solved?

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Originally by: nync

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we fisrt time saw -v-members ctrl+qing to save their ships,we started to think how to pay attention of eve community

Originally by: Hans Roaming

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Originally by: Waragha

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So when you and goon brought 150-200 odd people to take down our pos, where maybe 13 of them
were BS and the rest was frigs and cruisers ... You didn't intentionally try to crash the node?

(we had like 40 man fleet or so)

Integrity.. where has it gone

---

These numbers should in no way crash a node am thinking that your opponents were thinking the same as me.

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Originally by: Jon Hawkes

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Good post KIAEddz, and I couldn't agree more.
I'd rather lose a ship and die trying to bring another tackler down with me than to log out. However, in regards to making ships that log out from the gate cloak tackable, I do have a question for people who may no more about these things than I do:

What happens to your ship when you "emergency warp" away from a gate due to lagging out on the jump through?
This has happened to me several times - I've been staring at a blank section of space for 30 seconds or so after jumping, then emerged 1,000,000km from the gate in the next system. Would anyone in my destination system have seen the ship warp away from the gate, or do ships just get "teleported" there automatically?
I would hate to think of the horrific lag-bombs tactics that certain less reputable PvP corps would at gates use to force this scenario if they knew that the ships performing these "emergency warps" could be tackled and killed before their pilots' Eve clients had even loaded!

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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blah blah....

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

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I would love to be able to deny that my alliance has been doing the same tricks but I cant prove that they dont.

All I can say is that it certainly is not the order of the day and I distance myself from any who feel it is a legitimate tactic.

As for intentionally crashing the node...well we would love it if the thing didnt go down every time our fleet comes to defend. What option do we have but to try to jump in as many pilots as we can?

Last night in JLO was another example, we jumped in outnumbered and 1 minute into the fight it went down again.
When it came up we did indeed hold the gate, but the entire opposing force(except about two poor sods who logged in to the gate) failed to even attempt to log back in. Result: Hours of boredom and a total no-show by the opposition even when the pos's came out of re-inforced.
So technically it was a victory...but not really.

Now the naive carebear in me wants all fights to be nice and fair and everyone to always act honourably. The merciless cynic in me chuckles and says "yeah right, if they are doing it we are fools not to jump on the wagon"
So in the end we are faced by the option of ending up as losers with our honour intact and no space to live in, or embracing the tactics used against us and playing up every possible metagaming advantage.

This war is a matter of pride now, for better or worse both sides feel that way. And no amount of preaching about "fairness" and "integrity" is ever going to convince either to stop using these tactics.
That bridge has been burned already...if it ever existed in the first place.

EDDZ if you ever catch me like that, I promise to die with honour.

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Originally by: Audrea

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Finally to conclude with a RL analogy (I like them, even though some call them dumb etc, whatever):
During the Cold War, whenever either side was about to gain a critical edge over the other side (eg the Cuba crisis), the other side (seeing as they are about to loose) would not have hesistated using Nuclear weapons, if all other options are exhausted, in order to deprive the opponent from victory, and in essence, making their victory, taste as bitter, as a defeat.

What that means? -if the world leaders were, and still are, willing to go to those extremes, its only natural the regular human behind the loosing character ingame, will also do whatever he can to prevent his enemies the sweet victory :)

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Originally by: Jon Hawkes

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What happens to your ship when you "emergency warp" away from a gate due to lagging out on the jump through?

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Originally by: nync

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

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I would love to be able to deny that my alliance has been doing the same tricks but I cant prove that they dont.

All I can say is that it certainly is not the order of the day and I distance myself from any who feel it is a legitimate tactic.

As for intentionally crashing the node...well we would love it if the thing didnt go down every time our fleet comes to defend. What option do we have but to try to jump in as many pilots as we can?

Last night in JLO was another example, we jumped in outnumbered and 1 minute into the fight it went down again.
When it came up we did indeed hold the gate, but the entire opposing force(except about two poor sods who logged in to the gate) failed to even attempt to log back in. Result: Hours of boredom and a total no-show by the opposition even when the pos's came out of re-inforced.
So technically it was a victory...but not really.

Now the naive carebear in me wants all fights to be nice and fair and everyone to always act honourably. The merciless cynic in me chuckles and says "yeah right, if they are doing it we are fools not to jump on the wagon"
So in the end we are faced by the option of ending up as losers with our honour intact and no space to live in, or embracing the tactics used against us and playing up every possible metagaming advantage.

This war is a matter of pride now, for better or worse both sides feel that way. And no amount of preaching about "fairness" and "integrity" is ever going to convince either to stop using these tactics.
That bridge has been burned already...if it ever existed in the first place.

EDDZ if you ever catch me like that, I promise to die with honour.

---

Bulls*t.
What you did in C-J6 couple of days back and in JLO yesterday was: 60-80 ppl from your support are jumping into hostile camp, node crashes, everyone in the system crashes and at the same time your BS fleet and dictor wait for node to crash and AFTER THAT you are jumping in from another system and hold the gate and wait for poor buggers to log back IN and get shot by you.
Have to admit it was very smart idea.

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Originally by: nync

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

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wot i rote on my holidaze

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Bulls*t.
What you did in C-J6 couple of days back and in JLO yesterday was: 60-80 ppl from your support are jumping into hostile camp, node crashes, everyone in the system crashes and at the same time your BS fleet and dictor wait for node to crash and AFTER THAT you are jumping in from another system and hold the gate and wait for poor buggers to log back IN and get shot by you.
Have to admit it was very smart idea.

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Originally by: nync

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Bulls*t.
What you did in C-J6 couple of days back and in JLO yesterday was: 60-80 ppl from your support are jumping into hostile camp, node crashes, everyone in the system crashes and at the same time your BS fleet and dictor wait for node to crash and AFTER THAT you are jumping in from another system and hold the gate and wait for poor buggers to log back IN and get shot by you.
Have to admit it was very smart idea.

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Originally by: nync

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-----------------

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Originally by: HordeZla

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I for one am so sick of seeing about 80% of ASCN pilots logging off once they hit structure. I am not saying they all do it and I except that some might be crashing however, it's getting out of control and I for one am loosing what respect I had for them.

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Originally by: Seleene

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Luckily I don't think MC has faced anyone lately who has been doing this. In the last few months we've fought:

Imperium / Supremacy
Namtz
The Evil Pirates in 9UY (did you guys ever have a catchy name?)
IAC / CVA / AXE

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Originally by: Evil Thug

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I think that every tactic allowed by ccp is fair.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Having been in 0.0 for the last 3 contracts, I have seen a worrying trend developing.

It would seem it is completely normal now to CTRL Q to avoid bubble camps.... I mean it is actually the chosen tactic!

I have seen LV/V do it a few times already over the past few days, and the order was given last night for Goons/RA etc to do it if they jump into a bubble....

I see that LV/V have also joined the Logoff trap brigade... is it so that because RA openly do it you feel you need to use it to combat that approach?

Also Purposely crashing (or hoping like fk that it happens) the Node is also now a viable tactic, employed by both sides of the war KIA are currently in... damn guys why on earth are we trying to do that? yes you gain an advantage if you just jumped in but serioulsy :( (for those that don't know after a node crash everyone is returned to thier last point of a session change, so a large force jumping in will be returned to the gate they jumped in at, and unless the defending force have prepared for it, then thier pilots will be returned all over the shop, normally resulting in big losses)

I was speaking to a few other CEOs and Alliance leaders last night, and they also say that they have not only seen the above from their current enemy, but are also not shy to order it if necessary.

This has honestly and sincerely saddened me.

For people to be embracing en masse obvious exploiting of the games shortcomings (although why CCP are avoiding dealing with them I have no idea.... if someone logs of in a bubble, then they should stay put for crying out loud) makes me wander where this game is going.

In all my time of playing Eve, the larger groups have generally frowned upon the shadier way of playing the game, logging off to save your ships etc has always been a distinct no no, as have many other less fair ways to play.

Maybe i am seeing the past through rose tinted glasses, maybe my memory is skewed, but not too long ago people employing such tactics as these would be regarded as a.scum (hehe, joking) but more importantly b.the minority

Not anymore it seems.

What for the future of Eve, if people will push the game and its mechanics to the very limit to gain an advantage....... reminds me so very much of the days gone by in the FPS world, starts with model replacements then bright coloured models, textureless walls, hit box scanning.... aimbots.... etc etc

Hope CCP have this in mind, whilst I am very excited about Kali, I cant help but feel their are some very basic problems that need looking at first, its getting harder and harder to get a "fair" fight or even a fight where your not worried about wtf your gonna have to do to avoid losing your entire fleet to a tactic your not willing to employ yourself....

Times have changed? Do we all need to adapt? I hope not.

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Originally by: Darcuese

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Edited by: Darcuese on 27/10/2006 12:06:00

Originally by: Evil Thug

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I think that every tactic allowed by ccp is fair.

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Maybe...if ppl would see a bit further then their nose.

I guess you are one of those that cant....or dont care

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Originally by: nync

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

---

I would love to be able to deny that my alliance has been doing the same tricks but I cant prove that they dont.

All I can say is that it certainly is not the order of the day and I distance myself from any who feel it is a legitimate tactic.

As for intentionally crashing the node...well we would love it if the thing didnt go down every time our fleet comes to defend. What option do we have but to try to jump in as many pilots as we can?

Last night in JLO was another example, we jumped in outnumbered and 1 minute into the fight it went down again.
When it came up we did indeed hold the gate, but the entire opposing force(except about two poor sods who logged in to the gate) failed to even attempt to log back in. Result: Hours of boredom and a total no-show by the opposition even when the pos's came out of re-inforced.
So technically it was a victory...but not really.

Now the naive carebear in me wants all fights to be nice and fair and everyone to always act honourably. The merciless cynic in me chuckles and says "yeah right, if they are doing it we are fools not to jump on the wagon"
So in the end we are faced by the option of ending up as losers with our honour intact and no space to live in, or embracing the tactics used against us and playing up every possible metagaming advantage.

This war is a matter of pride now, for better or worse both sides feel that way. And no amount of preaching about "fairness" and "integrity" is ever going to convince either to stop using these tactics.
That bridge has been burned already...if it ever existed in the first place.

EDDZ if you ever catch me like that, I promise to die with honour.

---

Bulls*t.
What you did in C-J6 couple of days back and in JLO yesterday was: 60-80 ppl from your support are jumping into hostile camp, node crashes, everyone in the system crashes and at the same time your BS fleet and dictor wait for node to crash and AFTER THAT you are jumping in from another system and hold the gate and wait for poor buggers to log back IN and get shot by you.
Have to admit it was very smart idea.

---

Originally by: Evil Thug

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Originally by: Darcuese

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Edited by: Darcuese on 27/10/2006 12:06:00

Originally by: Evil Thug

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I think that every tactic allowed by ccp is fair.

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Maybe...if ppl would see a bit further then their nose.

I guess you are one of those that cant....or dont care

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Elaborate please.

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Originally by: Evil Thug

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"Everybody wants to heaven, but nobody want to die". There will always be people, who understand game better than you, so lamers will accuse them of using unfair tactics. I think that every tactic allowed by ccp is fair.

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Originally by: shakaZ XIV

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Ok so what it boils down to is this:

1) Aggro timer needs to be applied aswell AFTER people log off.

2) Warp bubbles should still work on ships whose pilots logged off.

Problem solved?

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Originally by: Corey Grim

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Originally by: nync

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-----------------

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after you logged out and in 5 times in DG- to save your pod i would have thinked you stay out of this thread.

no disrespect, at least you didnt log your ship out.

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Originally by: nync

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Originally by: Corey Grim

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Originally by: nync

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-----------------

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after you logged out and in 5 times in DG- to save your pod i would have thinked you stay out of this thread.

no disrespect, at least you didnt log your ship out.

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I did it not 5, 9 times, learn how to count first before writing. Forgot to install clone in c-j and the last remaining was in rens, just saved rl time of shuttle flying. And I don't use implants anyway, so stop accusing me of this crap of saving my pod full of imps.

And to say about fight that day, really enjoyed it, thks to all my pilots who fought outnumbered 3 to 1 and still manage to kill more than we lost and to klezz for fun after he burned 90 km in his blastertron to kill my raven and died 10 sec before my raven went boooom amazing fight

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Originally by: nync

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Bulls*t.
What you did in C-J6 couple of days back and in JLO yesterday was: 60-80 ppl from your support are jumping into hostile camp, node crashes, everyone in the system crashes and at the same time your BS fleet and dictor wait for node to crash and AFTER THAT you are jumping in from another system and hold the gate and wait for poor buggers to log back IN and get shot by you.
Have to admit it was very smart idea.

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Originally by: Corey Grim

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EVE aint the nice sadbox that it was 2 years ago, now its more like common multiplayer game where everyone just pursues his own wallet and
K/D ratio, the problem aint only player base the problem is also that CCP has too much in their hands and they have forgotten why EVE is/was good game.

Its like mother (CCP) that has taken 3 jobs and doesnt have time anymore to listen what her child (eve players) has to say.

result: child suffers first, after certain time child says FU and leaves resulting mother to suffer.

(i hope my "not so good english" doesnt prevent ppl understanding what i wrote)

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Originally by: nync

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Originally by: Corey Grim

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Originally by: nync

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-----------------

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after you logged out and in 5 times in DG- to save your pod i would have thinked you stay out of this thread.

no disrespect, at least you didnt log your ship out.

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I did it not 5, 9 times, learn how to count first before writing.

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Originally by: nync

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Forgot to install clone in c-j and the last remaining was in rens, just saved rl time of shuttle flying.

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Originally by: nync

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And to say about fight that day, really enjoyed it, thks to all my pilots who fought outnumbered 3 to 1 and still manage to kill more than we lost and to klezz for fun after he burned 90 km in his blastertron to kill my raven and died 10 sec before my raven went boooom amazing fight

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Originally by: Jacob Majestic

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Umm, why don't you just use the correct dread?

Originally by: Garia666

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First of all when you accuse LV come with proof to state it instead of saying LV use this tactic.

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Originally by: Irrilian

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From the point of view of other pilots, you'll decloak (if cloaked), and just appear to warp off, but be untargetable during this process.

Which is fine when its due to honest and unavoidable causes, but is an issue when such is generated artificially as a tactic.

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Originally by: Death Merchant

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I mean who is to say what is right or wrong? For some alliances logging to avoid bubble is wrong. For some alliances its encouraged. I see alot of BoB pilots agreeing with this, but some people might think that BoBs tactics of posting of internal chats and ts spying is just as lame as logging off in bubbles.

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Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

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Originally by: c0rn1

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Name me please a fleet of V which logged off? or an incident?

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Originally by: c0rn1

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Name me please a fleet of V which logged off? or an incident?

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Originally by: Sneetches

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To RA/goon: The other point i would like to make very clear, is that we want fights; we dont want node crashes. We try our best to use jump in techniques that dont crash the node. That you wind up on the receiving end of the lag is not my problem and i find it deliciously ironic to see game mechanics work against you.

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Originally by: R'adeh

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Edited by: R''adeh on 27/10/2006 13:31:37
It boils down to this: STOP CARING ABOUT KILLBOARDS, PLAY THE FRICKIN' GAME!!!1!!!

Seriously, the most fun I ever had in EVE was during the old times (Yulai, anyone?) flying with CAB. People seemed to enjoy PVP'ing just because they LIKE PVP'ing. Nowadays it seems as if all people care about is "OMGOMGOMG, 10:1 killratio, I rock, you suck, your killboard is not accurate, mine is, yadyadayada..."

Players use borderline "exploits" and justify it by saying "but CCP think it's ok". Well, that's like playing Poker and having an extra Ace up your sleave. Sure, I can use that Ace without having the other players see it, but it kinda takes the point out of the game. At least in Poker you are "fighting" for RL money, but EVE doesn't (and should have) the slightest influence on my RL.

Yes I'm taking this game serious. I'm loyal to my corp/alliance m8s, I hate the BoBbits (ingame: yarrr!!)...however, I would NEVER cheat to gain an advantage, and that includes borderline exploits. So I just lost a Deimos jumping into a bubblecamp, I could have saved it by doing the CTRL+Q trick, but for what?? To not lose a ship I can easily replace (don't fly what you can't afford to lose!!!)? To avoid a lossmail (lol)?

I can't prevent others from using cheap tricks, but at least I can say I'm in a corp which doesn't tollerate such bull****.

PS: Oh, btw...I agree with what Edd said...

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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You cannot blame RA/Goons leadership, as yours is doing the exact same thing.

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Originally by: Zafon

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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You cannot blame RA/Goons leadership, as yours is doing the exact same thing.

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(In reference to LV)

Your opening post was great and deserved the respectful replies it got. Having said that I think you really need to back the comment above up or retract it.

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Originally by: Zafon

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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You cannot blame RA/Goons leadership, as yours is doing the exact same thing.

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(In reference to LV)

Your opening post was great and deserved the respectful replies it got. Having said that I think you really need to back the comment above up or retract it.

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Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

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Originally by: Cipher7

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When getting from empire to certain parts of 0.0 you encounter 2-3 bubblecamps, what is a player supposed to do, safespot and go play counterstrike at every camp?

...

You wanna improve things?

Start by making sure people have a chance of flying from point A to point B intact, without having to logoff and play counterstrike, and without having to use exploits to avoid camps.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Zafon

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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You cannot blame RA/Goons leadership, as yours is doing the exact same thing.

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(In reference to LV)

Your opening post was great and deserved the respectful replies it got. Having said that I think you really need to back the comment above up or retract it.

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Dungar... post away. Sigh.

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

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Now the naive carebear in me wants all fights to be nice and fair and everyone to always act honourably. The merciless cynic in me chuckles and says "yeah right, if they are doing it we are fools not to jump on the wagon"
So in the end we are faced by the option of ending up as losers with our honour intact and no space to live in, or embracing the tactics used against us and playing up every possible metagaming advantage.

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 27/10/2006 14:22:57

Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Zafon

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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You cannot blame RA/Goons leadership, as yours is doing the exact same thing.

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(In reference to LV)

Your opening post was great and deserved the respectful replies it got. Having said that I think you really need to back the comment above up or retract it.

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Dungar... post away. Sigh.

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You tried buddy, you really did.

Sexorella hotz > crash this ******* node, play the goon game...
Marneous Calgar > or we will be spending months fighting over that system

Light Darkness > 85 IN HERE AND NOONE INTEREST IT THAT WE LOOSE POSES HERE
General Dynasty > 19 IN GANG IF YOU ARE NOT IN GANG PACK YOUR **** UP AND LEAVE ALLIANCE
General Dynasty > I ****IN SERIOUS
The ArchWarder > WE NEED NEED EVERYBODY WE CAN GET TO GET ONTO A CHEAP CRUISER THAT CAN DEPLOY 5 DRONES ( lights meds what ever ) AND GET INTO RYC ASAP WE ARE GONA TRASH THIS SFKIN NODDE

Those of you wondering why I enjoy following the threads by the coalition so closely and what you've done to garner my attention, this is exactly it. It's the complete and total hypocracy. Your entire war against Red Alliance has been based off of them being exploiters, farmers, cheaters, bad sportmen, and you've said it so many time it's become true. But I know for a fact the coalition has done log-on traps, ctrl+qs out of bubbles, uses stabs, and pretty much does everything they accuse Red Alliance of doing under the weak guise "they're doing it too, so I can too!".

At the higher levels of an alliance, it's understandable you don't want to admit your corporation/alliance does this kind of stuff, but just because you don't see it going on doesn't mean no one is doing it. As I said before I edited my second post in this thread at Eddz's request, taking the attitude "lalala no one in my corporation/alliance is doing this" does nothing to solve the problem. You need to hold your members accountable if you truely care about solving this problem before CCP is forced to. Otherwise these tactics are going to continue to escalate until people are just outright cheating to gain an advantage.

Edit: Yes, I know this is -V- and not LV, but the point still stands. Right now, -V-'s tactics are as dirty as Red Alliance's tactics are as dirty and LV's tactics are as dirty as Goonfleet's tactics.

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Originally by: R'adeh

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Edited by: R''adeh on 27/10/2006 13:31:37
It boils down to this: STOP CARING ABOUT KILLBOARDS, PLAY THE FRICKIN' GAME!!!1!!!

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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From here on in this thread will be a V amd LV "we dont exploit, our enemys do!" thread :(

But still the original subject stands. I just Hope CCP read enough of peoples comments b4 it gets to the flame.

See ya in space all.

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Originally by: nync

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Originally by: Hans Roaming

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So you think all your opponents should log to save their ships and pods then?

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It's up to them. I'm not their mammy or daddy to look after them.
I do not log off to save my ship (did it once with great pleasure to **** off putukas ). Ask any coalition member, they all know me and luv me

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Originally by: Fubear

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The source of this problem lies entirely at the feet of CCP. If they actually acknowledged fixed the problems in the game, this would not be an issue at all.

A lot of people have a problem with the principle of hitting CTRL-Q to save their ship/pod, and some of them still take the high-ground and 'take their lumps' as it has been described in this thread. For a lot of people, there reaches a point where you just think 'screw-it', after months of people logging off in your bubbles without a word from CCP other than the GM's telling you that they cannot control when people log in/out, you really get apathetic to the whole situation.

Hitting CTRL-Q, Logoff/on traps, deliberate node crashing would not be an issue if CCP were on top on things and fixed the core problem with the game promptly (within 2 weeks). However it has been 6 months since people started doing this (I have petitions from April), and CCP have failed to acknowledge that there is even a problem. It is at this point where people start adopting the 'if you can't beat them, join them' philosophy because it doesn't look like anything is going to change.

The worst part is that CCP have outright stated that they will not fix one of the core issues in the game; the lack of dynamic load balancing.

Take a quiet system in 0.0, it only has 20-30 people pass through it a day on average. Suddenly Alliance A moves 100 people into the system and starts pounding on the towers, then Alliance B tries to move 100 people in to defend. How the hell is a node setup for 20-30 people supposed to handle 200 all shooting at each other without any dynamic load balancing? With average stront levels being 8-12 hours there is no garuntee that there will be a single downtime to even attempt to balance the node. It takes 2-3 days of constant fighting for a node to balance properly, and after that it is usually too late.

Dynamic node balancing is pretty much a requirement for Eve going forwards, but CCP are scared to implement because it mat break other nodes. My response to this is simple: Make sure you code it properly, and it wont!

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Originally by: Guderian

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I'm not saying that individuals in -V-, LV, or OSS for that matter hasn't logged off to safe their ships at jumpin. But going from a, out of context, quote in a chat channel to claiming its a widely used tactics by LV commanders is far fetched.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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From here on in this thread will be a V amd LV "we dont exploit, our enemys do!" thread :(

But still the original subject stands. I just Hope CCP read enough of peoples comments b4 it gets to the flame.

See ya in space all.

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Originally by: Guderian

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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From here on in this thread will be a V amd LV "we dont exploit, our enemys do!" thread :(

But still the original subject stands. I just Hope CCP read enough of peoples comments b4 it gets to the flame.

See ya in space all.

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I quess you are the only one allowed to claim the high road here? How come? Because you started the thread? Because you some how feel you are above the rest of us?

I think there has been plenty of -V- and LV people saying that -V- and LV has individuals doing what you are accusing us of. I know I have heard about a few myself. I principally distance myself from those kind of tactics, and think it's pathetic that people have to sink to that level of play, just to safe a ship/pod.

So take my word for it, I would never condone it. But I'm in LV, so you have probably already made up your mind about me

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Originally by: Sebo Darrens

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Originally by: Cipher7

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When getting from empire to certain parts of 0.0 you encounter 2-3 bubblecamps, what is a player supposed to do, safespot and go play counterstrike at every camp?

...

You wanna improve things?

Start by making sure people have a chance of flying from point A to point B intact, without having to logoff and play counterstrike, and without having to use exploits to avoid camps.

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What part of this game makes you think it should be easy to travel into claimed and camped space without risk of losing your ship? If you are wandering around in other territory where some ships are lying in wait for you the solution is not to make it easier for you, its for you to die and learn not to do that. This is a PvP game, not a game where its not fair if someone shoots you..

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Edited by: KIAEddZ on 27/10/2006 13:24:09
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 27/10/2006 13:19:20

Originally by: Garia666

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First of all when you accuse LV come with proof to state it instead of saying LV use this tactic.

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Actually nvm, this thread isnt about petty flaming or squabbles... yet :(

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 27/10/2006 14:50:31
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 27/10/2006 14:49:49

Originally by: Guderian

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I'm not saying that individuals in -V-, LV, or OSS for that matter hasn't logged off to safe their ships at jumpin. But going from a, out of context, quote in a chat channel to claiming its a widely used tactics by LV commanders is far fetched.

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This "out of text quote" was last night. I'm not sure what context makes talking about node crashing an acceptable tactic. Please show me where I said "This is a common tactic for all LV commanders".

What I did say was that pretending a certain alliance doesn't do it is exactly what's causing this problem to get worse. I've seen LV do it, Eddz says he has seen it. That doesn't mean everyone in LV does it, but (other LV members) catagorially denying this goes on at all doesn't help solve the problem.

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Originally by: Avernus

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5. Corps start to bail, individual pilots leave their corporations, alliance numbers drop, morale plummets. Only the diehards are still actually fighting. Decisions have to be made on what to do with alliance funds. Corporations are broke and looking for relief, passive alliance income has dried up and funds are now finite.

- Losses continue to mount up.

6.a) Your alliance dies.
6.b) Your pilots are so hardened and stubborn, they can't figure out how to quit fighting. Eventually, the enemy backs off, and you can begin to rebuild. (However, LV isn't done with RA)
6.c) A miracle occurs.

Take from: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=417553&sid=83373937

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Originally by: Guderian

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So take my word for it, I would never condone it. But I'm in LV, so you have probably already made up your mind about me

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Originally by: Guderian

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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From here on in this thread will be a V amd LV "we dont exploit, our enemys do!" thread :(

But still the original subject stands. I just Hope CCP read enough of peoples comments b4 it gets to the flame.

See ya in space all.

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I quess you are the only one allowed to claim the high road here? How come? Because you started the thread? Because you some how feel you are above the rest of us?

I think there has been plenty of -V- and LV people saying that -V- and LV has individuals doing what you are accusing us of. I know I have heard about a few myself. I principally distance myself from those kind of tactics, and think it's pathetic that people have to sink to that level of play, just to safe a ship/pod.

So take my word for it, I would never condone it. But I'm in LV, so you have probably already made up your mind about me

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If you know people are doing this, and you have not reported them your CEO/Alliance head, then you condone what they do. If your corporation hasn't kicked them out, then they condone this tactic. Staying silent yet objecting to the tactic on the forums makes you just as bad as the logger.

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Originally by: Guderian

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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From here on in this thread will be a V amd LV "we dont exploit, our enemys do!" thread :(

But still the original subject stands. I just Hope CCP read enough of peoples comments b4 it gets to the flame.

See ya in space all.

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I quess you are the only one allowed to claim the high road here? How come? Because you started the thread? Because you some how feel you are above the rest of us?

I think there has been plenty of -V- and LV people saying that -V- and LV has individuals doing what you are accusing us of. I know I have heard about a few myself. I principally distance myself from those kind of tactics, and think it's pathetic that people have to sink to that level of play, just to safe a ship/pod.

So take my word for it, I would never condone it. But I'm in LV, so you have probably already made up your mind about me

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If you know people are doing this, and you have not reported them your CEO/Alliance head, then you condone what they do. If your corporation hasn't kicked them out, then they condone this tactic. Staying silent yet objecting to the tactic on the forums makes you just as bad as the logger.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Guderian

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So take my word for it, I would never condone it. But I'm in LV, so you have probably already made up your mind about me

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No sir I haven't, and if enough "members" of corps have your attitude and are willing to voice their adamant opinions to whatever people on high that are listening then there is hope yet.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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From here on in this thread will be a V amd LV "we dont exploit, our enemys do!" thread :(

But still the original subject stands. I just Hope CCP read enough of peoples comments b4 it gets to the flame.

See ya in space all.

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Originally by: Jules

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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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Originally by: Guderian

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What makes you think I haven't?

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Originally by: Sneetches

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That is a ridiculous statement. You can't control what other players do, just like you can't control who posts on the forum. You have any idea how hard it is to understand what 400 pilots are doing at any given time let alone affect their behaviour? You speak of ideals that are unenforceable in an alliace setting. And as i said in an earlier post, when perpetrators are found out and it is confirmed, they are dealt with (to my knowledge).

How easy it is for you to sit back and gibber away at things you really know nothing about. You know, when i joined BOS, there was such high integrity that on my first day, we actually pod killed one of our own members (Lifeneb i think his name was) an op for racist smack in local. He was kicked immediately by the management. It's sad to see some of that integrity erode such a fine reputation through the likes of you.

- Sneetches

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Originally by: Audrea

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stuff

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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And you can control who posts on the forums. Players in the core Goonfleet corporations (Fleet, Waffe, Platoon) are not allowed to post on the forums CA&OD, lest they face severe fines and shunning, and if they continue, they get the boot. For the exception of a clueless newbie, or someone who was explicitly told they could post, I don't see goons posting in CA&OD.

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Originally by: Audrea

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Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:

When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.

Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

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Originally by: Shyalud

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Those that can't adapt become extinct.

It's a horrible mistake not to learn your enemies tactics and use them against them. The tactic may stink (and it does) but if your enemy is useing it, and taking "the higher road" means you lose with honor means, well, you lose.

As far as the WCS argument...it's stupid. If you don't want people to use WCS then don't use scramblers. It's simply not fair to provide an attack in game that there is no defence for.

Learn how to counter a tactic, not how to ***** about it. If it's a successfull tactic, no amount of public outcry or opinion is going to change it anyway.

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Originally by: Audrea

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Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:

When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.

Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: Audrea

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Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:

When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.

Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: Audrea

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Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:

When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.

Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: Audrea

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Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:

When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.

Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Of course you can control what other players do. If Nebba or Chow sent out an evemail that said "Any players that are reported as having ctrl+q'd will receive a warning. After that, they get the boot", it would stop. If any alliance did that, and enforced it, the behavior would stop, or some people would find themselves in empire.

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Originally by: Audrea

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BLAH BLAH BLAH....
Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: The Enslaver

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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And you can control who posts on the forums. Players in the core Goonfleet corporations (Fleet, Waffe, Platoon) are not allowed to post on the forums CA&OD, lest they face severe fines and shunning, and if they continue, they get the boot. For the exception of a clueless newbie, or someone who was explicitly told they could post, I don't see goons posting in CA&OD.

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Is that why you don't post with your GoonFleet character, Targaine?

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Having been in 0.0 for the last 3 contracts, I have seen a worrying trend developing.

It would seem it is completely normal now to CTRL Q to avoid bubble camps.... I mean it is actually the chosen tactic!

I have seen LV/V do it a few times already over the past few days, and the order was given last night for Goons/RA etc to do it if they jump into a bubble....

I see that LV/V have also joined the Logoff trap brigade... is it so that because RA openly do it you feel you need to use it to combat that approach?

Also Purposely crashing (or hoping like fk that it happens) the Node is also now a viable tactic, employed by both sides of the war KIA are currently in... damn guys why on earth are we trying to do that? yes you gain an advantage if you just jumped in but serioulsy :( (for those that don't know after a node crash everyone is returned to thier last point of a session change, so a large force jumping in will be returned to the gate they jumped in at, and unless the defending force have prepared for it, then thier pilots will be returned all over the shop, normally resulting in big losses)

I was speaking to a few other CEOs and Alliance leaders last night, and they also say that they have not only seen the above from their current enemy, but are also not shy to order it if necessary.

This has honestly and sincerely saddened me.

For people to be embracing en masse obvious exploiting of the games shortcomings (although why CCP are avoiding dealing with them I have no idea.... if someone logs of in a bubble, then they should stay put for crying out loud) makes me wander where this game is going.

In all my time of playing Eve, the larger groups have generally frowned upon the shadier way of playing the game, logging off to save your ships etc has always been a distinct no no, as have many other less fair ways to play.

Maybe i am seeing the past through rose tinted glasses, maybe my memory is skewed, but not too long ago people employing such tactics as these would be regarded as a.scum (hehe, joking) but more importantly b.the minority

Not anymore it seems.

What for the future of Eve, if people will push the game and its mechanics to the very limit to gain an advantage....... reminds me so very much of the days gone by in the FPS world, starts with model replacements then bright coloured models, textureless walls, hit box scanning.... aimbots.... etc etc

Hope CCP have this in mind, whilst I am very excited about Kali, I cant help but feel their are some very basic problems that need looking at first, its getting harder and harder to get a "fair" fight or even a fight where your not worried about wtf your gonna have to do to avoid losing your entire fleet to a tactic your not willing to employ yourself....

Times have changed? Do we all need to adapt? I hope not.

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Originally by: Audrea

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Oh and another example I forgot to mention in my previous post:

When you have a fleet battle, and having bships warp out every time they are targeted as primary to prevent giving the opponents kills, that can also be argued as not giving the other side pleasure of victory etc, yet everyone does it.

Is it really so diffrent from loggin off tactics?

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Originally by: Imode

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lol

so if my hauler warps away before you can scramble it then that's an exploit?

h4xx!

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Originally by: SATAN

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I would say 1 out of 3 people in EC log out when in a bubble, its difficult to describe how absolutly lame this is.

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Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

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Originally by: cruxix

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heres an option.. There is NO reason that ccp couldnt cause hitting ctrl-q to trigger a message to be sent to teh server.. sure you may not be able to stop people from doing a ctrl-alt-delete but it would at least be a way to seperate people who are trying to log superquick to avoid getting ganked from those who dropped due to natural causes... once you have that message ccp could act on it and either impose a 15 minute aggro timer or if they really want to stay out of the ethical side of it simply have it be something that CEO's can view/monitor for their corp... that way you could at least TELL if you have players doing it... granted it wont stop people from doing it when its corp endorced but it would at least give some visability into it...

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Originally by: WiZZyWiGG

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Great post.

Something really needs to be done about people Ctrl-Q'ing to save themselves.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Then a BoB guy complains about the same. Well, I could call using TS spies and forum spies equally lame, abusive and unwanted behaviour, but I guess you don't agree with me there, do you? Or convo spamming? Not a problem I guess, but CTRL-Q is the devil, right?

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Originally by: CYVOK

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If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.

-CYVOK-

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Originally by: Waragha

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So when you and goon brought 150-200 odd people to take down our pos, where maybe 13 of them
were BS and the rest was frigs and cruisers ... You didn't intentionally try to crash the node?

(we had like 40 man fleet or so)

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Originally by: CYVOK

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If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.

-CYVOK-

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Originally by: pershphanie

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1) In RL if you get into a fight you can not cease to exist for a while if you are losing. Therefore CTRL-Q = exploit.
2) If you try to avoid getting mugged you can not have a bunch of short conversations with the mugger to prevent him from stabbing you while you try to get away. Therefore convo spamming = exploit.
3) If you are under attack in an RL situation you can not print out a bunch of napquest directions and throw them up in the air to make your attack cease to exist(crash). Therefore lagbombing = exploit. All these things use external forces to achieve a goal which means they are cheap/exploitive in nature.

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Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

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Originally by: Jules

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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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Originally by: SATAN

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We just finished a tour de south and the logout tactics to escape bubbles/scrambling is strong down there. Believe it or not ASCN is not that bad when compared to LV and their slaves, but nothing I mean nothing compares to the north.

I would say 1 out of 3 people in EC log out when in a bubble, its difficult to describe how absolutly lame this is. And CCP says it is not an exploit nor is it punishable in any way. Now imagine Kali with ships hp being 50% more/better tanks/and ships do less damage.

This tactic is going to become a nightmare all over eve, and ccp dont seem to be too concerned.

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Originally by: Jules

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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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Originally by: Shyalud

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Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 02:42:07
I share your opinion lorth, but eve has evolved into who get's the most kills. That's how we decide who won and who lost. If the guys that are pulling these tactics get the most kils v death, who wins?

edit: meh spelling get's worse when I drink...

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Originally by: pershphanie

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Edited by: pershphanie on 27/10/2006 22:40:55
Any tactics that could be used if eve=RL are legit. I believe this is the core concept in defining the difference between exploits/cheap tactics and fair play. Any tactics that involve the use of external forces (sever lag, logging off, etc) are both cheap and exploitive. Any tactics that involve the use of internal forces ONLY are all completly valid and are fair play. This is the basic minimum standard all corps/alliances should play by.

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Originally by: zeKzn

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Originally by: pershphanie

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Edited by: pershphanie on 27/10/2006 22:40:55
Any tactics that could be used if eve=RL are legit. I believe this is the core concept in defining the difference between exploits/cheap tactics and fair play. Any tactics that involve the use of external forces (sever lag, logging off, etc) are both cheap and exploitive. Any tactics that involve the use of internal forces ONLY are all completly valid and are fair play. This is the basic minimum standard all corps/alliances should play by.

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I'm curious. Where do you stand on using alts to scout ahead, or do whatever, frankly, since technically you wouldn't really have that ability if EVE was RL? (The reason I ask is because a lot of people often put alt scouting forward as an alternative to logging out, while ignoring the fact that it is, technically, metagaming)

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Originally by: Jules

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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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Originally by: Lorth

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Originally by: Shyalud

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Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 02:42:07
I share your opinion lorth, but eve has evolved into who get's the most kills. That's how we decide who won and who lost. If the guys that are pulling these tactics get the most kils v death, who wins?

edit: meh spelling get's worse when I drink...

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I can see why you think the eve is about who can get the most kills. But I personally dissagree with you. Warfare in eve is about moral, or at least that the strongly decideing factor in almost every conflict. Sure it is strongly related to kills vs deaths, but its not exactly the same.

However your right in that these people are doing these tactics to win a game. Though so do the people using map hacks in BF2, or any other game. Doesn't make it right, or acceptable, though, and it doesn't make the game more fun. Ever play a game on God mode, I do once and a while, and it takes about 50 seconds before the lack of challange or risks, leaves me bored to tears. Its simular to playing eve using the discussed tactics.

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Originally by: Jules

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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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Originally by: Shyalud

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that's not true, almost every rl military uses intel gathered from locals and such other "neutral" sources.

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Originally by: Shyalud

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I do agree. However, when you have alliances doing everything they can to hold their space, and they end up losing it to people who use these tactics....what do you call them? Losers. We've seen it time and time again in eve.

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Originally by: zeKzn

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Originally by: Shyalud

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that's not true, almost every rl military uses intel gathered from locals and such other "neutral" sources.

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yes, but in eve that would equate to having friends scout for you, not having a second consciousness (effectively) to do it.

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Originally by: Jules

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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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Originally by: Shyalud

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In eve, I can be thirty different people. Which one is real?

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