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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 31 post(s)
Dangeresque Too Pistols for Pandas 151	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:46:39 - [151] - Quote Magosian wrote: Dangeresque Too wrote: Magosian wrote: Sorry if this was already covered, but I'm curious why the BC/dessy ship skins which come from lowsec besieged sites are 30-day temporary. It was already covered, like 5 or 6 times, even by dev posts on the first page or two. As well as in the blog. Yes, if it comes from a site drop, it will be time limited. Yes but WHY? They say it is to retain their value, because the permanent SKIN system is poorly designed in that it has a continually shrinking target market, and therefore diminishing value as fewer and fewer people have a need to purchase a SKIN. Except that is a load of crap cause I know fewer people that will want to pay an additional monthly fee to keep their pirate paint scheme. So my guess is these will be so rarely bought the markets will tank much faster than if they were permanent. Also mind you, if they had listened to a myriad of player feedback and suggestions about permanent SKINs vs a variety of other implementations (Rig slot, special Module slot, etc that could just be 'fitted' to a ship instead of making it a 'new' ship like the old one did) then they wouldn't have the issue of permanent or time limited nonsense.
Magosian Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 185	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:47:36 - [152] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: Think about how many there are in game currently versus other skins that are NOT site drops. If I do that, the only thing I can conclude is CCP/Aurum moneygrab. I should probably state that I happen to have a few of these, and while it might appear that I'm trying to milk their worth, I'm really not. As you said, there are tons floating around; they're far from rare. It just sticks out like a sore thumb when ONLY these are temporary, and seem to contradict the whole concept of having a skinnable options in the first place. Maybe a better question would be: what is CCP wanting to avoid if these were to become permanent?
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM 5185	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:48:11 - [153] - Quote Destoya wrote: Kind of disappointed with the prices on a lot of these items. 5000+ aurum might be acceptable for a titan, but asking the same for a tech 1 frigate is frankly pretty ridiculous. Would be one thing if it were that much for all variants of a hull (ex: Merlin, Hawk, and Harpy), but that's obviously not the case . I get that you wanted some skins to be rarer/more premium than others but asking that much for ships that most people dont use past 6 months is kind of distasteful in my opinion. Most expensive frigate is 4300? (3 at that price point) Woo! CSM X! Fuzzwork Enterprises Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Wendrika Hydreiga 299	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:50:07 - [154] - Quote If they have a problem with the dropable skins being too common, just add an "officer" permanent version of the thing at an abysmal low drop rate AFTER the patch. So that schmucks like me can pay 1 Bil ISK for it and become proud (and space poor) Guristas pilots! Is it too much to ask?
Zloco Crendraven BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel 675	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:54:12 - [155] - Quote At least CCP make it that we can deactivate our SKIN licences when we want to sell them. BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1626	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:54:38 - [156] - Quote Magosian wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Think about how many there are in game currently versus other skins that are NOT site drops. If I do that, the only thing I can conclude is CCP/Aurum moneygrab. I should probably state that I happen to have a few of these, and while it might appear that I'm trying to milk their worth, I'm really not. As you said, there are tons floating around; they're far from rare. It just sticks out like a sore thumb when ONLY these are temporary, and seem to contradict the whole concept of having a skinnable options in the first place. Maybe a better question would be: what is CCP wanting to avoid if these were to become permanent? They are avoiding a version that you spend real world cash money on being rendered obsolete from the outset because the version you spend internet space money on is dirt cheap due to over abundance. Surprisingly, CCP likes making money. Whodathunk? Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1400	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:56:05 - [157] - Quote Magosian wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Think about how many there are in game currently versus other skins that are NOT site drops. If I do that, the only thing I can conclude is CCP/Aurum moneygrab. I should probably state that I happen to have a few of these, and while it might appear that I'm trying to milk their worth, I'm really not. As you said, there are tons floating around; they're far from rare. It just sticks out like a sore thumb when ONLY these are temporary, and seem to contradict the whole concept of having a skinnable options in the first place. Maybe a better question would be: what is CCP wanting to avoid if these were to become permanent? How can there be a money grab for something that isn't obtainable with money? That's really the fundamental difference there. Since Aur prices are static the permanent skins retain their value to an extent, either because demand will meet the price point or suppliers stop supplying more of that item on the markets once it stops returning favorably. Since the skins being made temporary come from in game drops there is no such behavioral supply constraint so they need to be consumed to retain their value as new stock is found in game. This works out in favor of those finding them since demand for the skins will refresh every 30 days. Basically CCP isn't milking anyone but rather keeping those who are finding the skins in business long term.
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1626	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:56:28 - [158] - Quote Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: If they have a problem with the dropable skins being too common, just add an "officer" permanent version of the thing at an abysmal low drop rate AFTER the patch. So that schmucks like me can pay 1 Bil ISK for it and become proud (and space poor) Guristas pilots! Is it too much to ask? As a ******* who would give them actual money for some of the temporary skins, I agree. Although, don't even make it an in game drop. EDIT: how the hell is s.chmuck filtered but schmucks isn't? Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Natya Mebelle Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:58:54 - [159] - Quote I still wonder if it would not have been better to keep the skins around their old price but instead of making them unlock on account, they are like modules which you slot into a new slot on the ship. You could have exchanged the skins on that compatible ship as you would have seen fit, so you could either risk them or not, by leaving the skin in station. This would have cleared up the market as well but still kept the skins in the category of "destructible item" like anything else in Eve... okay, except the golden pod. I'm still debating which way would have been better. Spending much more money on a permanent skin, or paying less money for a possible destruction. But wait... what... if BOTH could be done? You know, options are awesome? Maybe food for thought for future updates c:
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1400	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:03:49 - [160] - Quote Natya Mebelle wrote: I still wonder if it would not have been better to keep the skins around their old price but instead of making them unlock on account, they are like modules which you slot into a new slot on the ship. You could have exchanged the skins on that compatible ship as you would have seen fit, so you could either risk them or not, by leaving the skin in station. This would have cleared up the market as well but still kept the skins in the category of "destructible item" like anything else in Eve... okay, except the golden pod. I'm still debating which way would have been better. Spending much more money on a permanent skin, or paying less money for a possible destruction. But wait... what... if BOTH could be done? You know, options are awesome? Maybe food for thought for future updates c: Maybe this decision came about by observing the willingness of people to fly with skinned ships. Considering the relative skin to hull cost I'd imagine loss was a potential factor limiting adoption, thus this addresses that while leaving the skins with their same relative value.

GankYou Redshield Holding Company 120	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:10:05 - [161] - Quote I like. ...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Winter Archipelago Furtherance. 366	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:16:40 - [162] - Quote Is there any sort of timeline or ETA on when the Auroral pod skin will be changed over? Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections. Once you've made your choice, join the channels *EVE-Scout* or *Furtherance Public* and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
Dangeresque Too Pistols for Pandas 152	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:26:31 - [163] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Natya Mebelle wrote: I still wonder if it would not have been better to keep the skins around their old price but instead of making them unlock on account, they are like modules which you slot into a new slot on the ship. You could have exchanged the skins on that compatible ship as you would have seen fit, so you could either risk them or not, by leaving the skin in station. This would have cleared up the market as well but still kept the skins in the category of "destructible item" like anything else in Eve... okay, except the golden pod. I'm still debating which way would have been better. Spending much more money on a permanent skin, or paying less money for a possible destruction. But wait... what... if BOTH could be done? You know, options are awesome? Maybe food for thought for future updates c: Maybe this decision came about by observing the willingness of people to fly with skinned ships. Considering the relative skin to hull cost I'd imagine loss was a potential factor limiting adoption, thus this addresses that while leaving the skins with their same relative value. Though they didn't exactly implement an "easy to use" test system, as you had to un-rig your ship in order to apply the skin... and I don't know many people that went so far to do that, or to buy a completely secondary ship and put a 2nd set of rigs on it. So their test use case data was flawed to begin with. And then they went a completely different direction...
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 8372	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:33:14 - [164] - Quote On the one hand, the value of my ship hangar is going to drop by about 20b after the change. But on the other, all those new permanent skins I'll have should fetch me twice that or more. As for the cost to buy them in the NES. Meh. They're vanity items. It's not like you need them. If you are unwilling to pay the asking price then don't buy them. I know I won't be. I'm fine with it. I don't think CCP could have done much better with this change. It's certainly a far better system than we have currently. People may actually undock now in their fancy ships rather than just spin them. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1401	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:36:57 - [165] - Quote Dangeresque Too wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Natya Mebelle wrote: I still wonder if it would not have been better to keep the skins around their old price but instead of making them unlock on account, they are like modules which you slot into a new slot on the ship. You could have exchanged the skins on that compatible ship as you would have seen fit, so you could either risk them or not, by leaving the skin in station. This would have cleared up the market as well but still kept the skins in the category of "destructible item" like anything else in Eve... okay, except the golden pod. I'm still debating which way would have been better. Spending much more money on a permanent skin, or paying less money for a possible destruction. But wait... what... if BOTH could be done? You know, options are awesome? Maybe food for thought for future updates c: Maybe this decision came about by observing the willingness of people to fly with skinned ships. Considering the relative skin to hull cost I'd imagine loss was a potential factor limiting adoption, thus this addresses that while leaving the skins with their same relative value. Though they didn't exactly implement an "easy to use" test system, as you had to un-rig your ship in order to apply the skin... and I don't know many people that went so far to do that, or to buy a completely secondary ship and put a 2nd set of rigs on it. So their test use case data was flawed to begin with. And then they went a completely different direction... As it so happens this solution addresses both of those issues. It works around loss and rig issues since it doesn't require ship repackaging. Still, since the skins concentrated on tech 1 ships where disposability is most commonly a factor I can't see the loss of the skin not being a factor under the current system. Someone whelping thoraxes or ganking in catalysts would likely find the current system prohibitive without even encountering rigging issues. The incoming system allows you to more feasibly die in style.
Magosian Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 185	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:41:50 - [166] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: They are avoiding a version that you spend real world cash money on being rendered obsolete from the outset because the version you spend internet space money on is dirt cheap due to over abundance. Frankly, I think the rarity of the two types involved will sort that out rather quickly. One takes Aurum, thus being vastly more rare, the others you can buy for 5-20 mil. The apparel market has the same kind of scaling, and I don't see clothes causing any kind of market disruption. Ned Thomas wrote: Surprisingly, CCP likes making money. Whodathunk? All well and good, doubly so since we're ultimately talking about cosmetics. I just don't like the idea that a nearly worthless item at present becomes even more worthless by being basically a very limited, time-lapsed feature. Tyberius Franklin wrote: How can there be a money grab for something that isn't obtainable with money? That's really the fundamental difference there. The moneygrab is in essentially gutting the allure from the "common" BC/dessy ship skins because they'll be temporary, to the much more fascinating (also, rare as hell now, rare as hell in the foreseeable future) Aurum-provided perma-skins.
Dangeresque Too Pistols for Pandas 152	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:44:35 - [167] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Someone whelping thoraxes or ganking in catalysts would likely find the current system prohibitive without even encountering rigging issues. The incoming system allows you to more feasibly die in style. Except in most cases with the common skins they were only a few million at most, so losing a Nug Merlin was just another Merlin. Now on the other hand you can spend more than you would to PLEX your account for an entire month. In addition to creating an unsustainable market condition in which you have increasingly smaller target audience. Having the SKIN as a rig or module slot would keep the market sustainable. And if they went with a module slot option (or even a specialized SKIN slot) then you would be able to remove it or exchange it for a different one, so the risk of loss wouldn't be as heavy.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1401	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:52:04 - [168] - Quote Magosian wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: How can there be a money grab for something that isn't obtainable with money? That's really the fundamental difference there. The moneygrab is in essentially gutting the allure from the "common" BC/dessy ship skins because they'll be temporary, to the much more fascinating (also, rare as hell now, rare as hell in the foreseeable future) Aurum-provided perma-skins. Their scarcity provides their value, their permanence reduces their value. If the become permanent that's a character whose demand is permanently fulfilled. After enough characters have them there is diminished demand for more, with that demand further diminishing as prices drop accordingly. Making them temporary preserves the market. Giving incentive for the aur market is a flawed argument. The aur market will largely be determined by isk:aur return and diminishing velocity since that market is pretty much set up to saturate. Making the in game ones temporary does a lot of nothing to change that for the actual cash buyers.
Magosian Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 185	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:57:03 - [169] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: ...Making them temporary preserves the market.... This is where we have vastly different conclusions then. I, for one, would never buy a skin that is temporary, and thus it becomes entirely worthless, at least to me.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1401	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:03:14 - [170] - Quote Dangeresque Too wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Someone whelping thoraxes or ganking in catalysts would likely find the current system prohibitive without even encountering rigging issues. The incoming system allows you to more feasibly die in style. Except in most cases with the common skins they were only a few million at most, so losing a Nug Merlin was just another Merlin. Now on the other hand you can spend more than you would to PLEX your account for an entire month. In addition to creating an unsustainable market condition in which you have increasingly smaller target audience. Having the SKIN as a rig or module slot would keep the market sustainable. And if they went with a module slot option (or even a specialized SKIN slot) then you would be able to remove it or exchange it for a different one, so the risk of loss wouldn't be as heavy. I'm not sure how a merlin at 10x the price is just another merlin. Your entire argument seems based on the idea that the cost differences are trivial when proportionally they aren't. Neither of the use cases I mentioned are actually addressed by this at all. And while you do correctly nail the point of sustainability, allowing for greater adoption though permanence widens the potential audience and increases use which becomes it's own advertizing. If most people only skin ships they almost never lose for cost reasons, or worse just don't skin ships for the same reason, you still have a sustainability issue with sales. If that's already the case then you don't lose much by making them more attractive to a wider range of buyers.

Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1627	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:04:31 - [171] - Quote Magosian wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: ...Making them temporary preserves the market.... This is where we have vastly different conclusions then. I, for one, would never buy a skin that is temporary, and thus it becomes entirely worthless, at least to me. I'd buy a temp skin to see what it looked like and try it out for a bit to see if I liked it. That's why I'd like to see temporary options for the permanent skins and permanent options for the temporary skins. One market would be low cost and high turnover, while the other would be high cost but slow moving. Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1401	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:06:32 - [172] - Quote Magosian wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: ...Making them temporary preserves the market.... This is where we have vastly different conclusions then. I, for one, would never buy a skin that is temporary, and thus it becomes entirely worthless, at least to me. Then you aren't the intended market for those skins. The value is preserved over time for those who do want them renewing their ability to use them, thus they can withstand a smaller pool of potential buyers and come out ahead long term.
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1627	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:10:20 - [173] - Quote Also, why are we assuming that the skins will make ships more valuable to kill or lose? You won't be able to BUY the ships with skins on them, there is no LOSS of the skin when the ship dies, and (outside of color scheme) there is no difference between, say, a Quafe Tristan and a Standard Tristan. There will be a rarity factor, sure, but it won't show up in the final value of the ship. And who's to say these things will show up on killmails in the first place? Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:18:11 - [174] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: Also, why are we assuming that the skins will make ships more valuable to kill or lose? You won't be able to BUY the ships with skins on them, there is no LOSS of the skin when the ship dies, and (outside of color scheme) there is no difference between, say, a Quafe Tristan and a Standard Tristan. There will be a rarity factor, sure, but it won't show up in the final value of the ship. And who's to say these things will show up on killmails in the first place? EDIT: Forgot it was in the dev blog. The skins won't show on killmails initially, but it'll be added later. We aren't making the assumption they will in the soon to be implemented skin system; I made the assumption, backed up by pre announcement market prices, that they currently are more expensive and will be until the change is made unless I'm missing a part of the conversation.
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1628	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:24:01 - [175] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Also, why are we assuming that the skins will make ships more valuable to kill or lose? You won't be able to BUY the ships with skins on them, there is no LOSS of the skin when the ship dies, and (outside of color scheme) there is no difference between, say, a Quafe Tristan and a Standard Tristan. There will be a rarity factor, sure, but it won't show up in the final value of the ship. And who's to say these things will show up on killmails in the first place? EDIT: Forgot it was in the dev blog. The skins won't show on killmails initially, but it'll be added later. We aren't making the assumption they will in the soon to be implemented skin system; I made the assumption, backed up by pre announcement market prices, that they currently are more expensive and will be until the change is made unless I'm missing a part of the conversation. Let's take a Sebiestor Hurricane as an example. Under the new system, after I buy the skin, I will buy a regular run of the mill Hurricane and apply the skin to it. When I leave the ship, it goes back to being a regular run of the mill Hurricane until I get back in it. If someone manages to kill me, I'll just go buy another regular run of the mill Hurricane as that's all I've lost. I haven't actually lost the Sebiestor Hurricane. Further, there will be no way for me to buy a "Sebiestor Hurricane" on the market, so there's no way to assess the value of that ship versus the value of the run of the mill Hurricane. So there's no actual value added to the ship. There's no market to determine the value from. I don't see why there would be added value reflected in kills or losses of skinned ships. Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:31:42 - [176] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Also, why are we assuming that the skins will make ships more valuable to kill or lose? You won't be able to BUY the ships with skins on them, there is no LOSS of the skin when the ship dies, and (outside of color scheme) there is no difference between, say, a Quafe Tristan and a Standard Tristan. There will be a rarity factor, sure, but it won't show up in the final value of the ship. And who's to say these things will show up on killmails in the first place? EDIT: Forgot it was in the dev blog. The skins won't show on killmails initially, but it'll be added later. We aren't making the assumption they will in the soon to be implemented skin system; I made the assumption, backed up by pre announcement market prices, that they currently are more expensive and will be until the change is made unless I'm missing a part of the conversation. Let's take a Sebiestor Hurricane as an example. Under the new system, after I buy the skin, I will buy a regular run of the mill Hurricane and apply the skin to it. When I leave the ship, it goes back to being a regular run of the mill Hurricane until I get back in it. If someone manages to kill me, I'll just go buy another regular run of the mill Hurricane as that's all I've lost. I haven't actually lost the Sebiestor Hurricane. Further, there will be no way for me to buy a "Sebiestor Hurricane" on the market, so there's no way to assess the value of that ship versus the value of the run of the mill Hurricane. So there's no actual value added to the ship. There's no market to determine the value from. I don't see why there would be added value reflected in kills or losses of skinned ships. Repeated for emphasis: "We aren't making the assumption they will in the soon to be implemented skin system"
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1628	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:35:04 - [177] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Also, why are we assuming that the skins will make ships more valuable to kill or lose? You won't be able to BUY the ships with skins on them, there is no LOSS of the skin when the ship dies, and (outside of color scheme) there is no difference between, say, a Quafe Tristan and a Standard Tristan. There will be a rarity factor, sure, but it won't show up in the final value of the ship. And who's to say these things will show up on killmails in the first place? EDIT: Forgot it was in the dev blog. The skins won't show on killmails initially, but it'll be added later. We aren't making the assumption they will in the soon to be implemented skin system; I made the assumption, backed up by pre announcement market prices, that they currently are more expensive and will be until the change is made unless I'm missing a part of the conversation. Let's take a Sebiestor Hurricane as an example. Under the new system, after I buy the skin, I will buy a regular run of the mill Hurricane and apply the skin to it. When I leave the ship, it goes back to being a regular run of the mill Hurricane until I get back in it. If someone manages to kill me, I'll just go buy another regular run of the mill Hurricane as that's all I've lost. I haven't actually lost the Sebiestor Hurricane. Further, there will be no way for me to buy a "Sebiestor Hurricane" on the market, so there's no way to assess the value of that ship versus the value of the run of the mill Hurricane. So there's no actual value added to the ship. There's no market to determine the value from. I don't see why there would be added value reflected in kills or losses of skinned ships. Repeated for emphasis: "We aren't making the assumption they will in the soon to be implemented skin system" For further explanation: We were actually discussing how they WON'T be more expensive in the new system compared to how they are NOW. goes back and re-reads the posts Ah......well I was just way off then Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Arthur Aihaken Jormungand Corporation 4358	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:54:07 - [178] - Quote This looks great - really looking forward to it! So how regularly can we expect new SKIN 'packs'? It would nice to see some new additions every release as a lot of us are anxiously awaiting T2, Pirate, Faction, etc. SKINs (there's a certain Kronos PoPo that will be a big hit). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 31032	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:08:32 - [179] - Quote It's a relief to see you acknowledge the market saturation problem. Any chance you'll do the same with clothing? Help, I can't download EVE
Jane Pantris Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:37:06 - [180] - Quote I can say that you single-updatedly restored my faith in your ability to do the right thing CCP.



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