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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.10 21:55:00 -
[61]
Don't you see?
Everything added to the game the last 1 1/2 year or so is just pointing to get more accounts per person. 
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SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.10 22:04:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Parallax Error
You only give your gang bonuses to people under your command. Except Wing and Fleet commanders which should give their bonuses to each other, this bit is bugged.
What am I reading wrong from all the information thats been released? Nothing has alluded to any other option other than you can only boost people under your command.
You can only give bonuses to people under your command if the chain is intact
fleet commander <> wing commander <> squad commander <> squad member.
A squad commander has to be present in the SAME system /undocked as the wing commander. For the wing commander to commute his bonus to the squad.
For the fleet commander to give his bonus to the squad member, the fleet,wing and squad commander ALL have to be undocked in the same system.
Its adding simple bureaucracy.
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Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.11.10 22:07:00 -
[63]
"A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself."
you can receive bonus from one of those, or from all 3 of those at same time?
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.10 22:23:00 -
[64]
Edited by: SengH on 10/11/2006 22:23:04
you can only receive bonus from all 3 if they are all undocked and in the same system (previous gang mod rules still apply(ie. highest module works). Furthermore if the wing commander docks. You lose both the fleet and wing commander bonuses. Or if your squad commander docks/jumps out of system, you lose all 3 bonuses.
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Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Elderberry Whine
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Posted - 2006.11.10 23:20:00 -
[65]
Hey, you got your WCS nerf, what's the problem????
Originally by: Aleis
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:45:19
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:15:08
This will be my first post since the first time i played in the Beta where i have specificly stated CCP made a serius mistake in changes to the game. I do not write this happily
So I just finished reading the new dev blog about the new gang hirearchy, And remainded speechless for about 5 sec. before I realized how much that swift kick to the nuts really hurt.
At first it sounds really cool having the gang split up into squads and being able to issue orders. But then theres those little mentions about how gang bonuses are going to work.
Unless your in a "Fleet" gang bonuses WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
Well that works out well for small corps and the rest of the world not being an allience.
And worse even if you are in a fleet only the bonuses of commanders and squad leaders Will be used at all!
then there was this really laughable line at the very end saying this new thing will make people more interested in specializing for leadership bonuses!!
How exactly is that supposed to work when you have restricted leaderships usefullness to large scale fleet battles and only the commanders of those battles? because let me tell you I really want some noob thats just starting to train the skill to be the only person in my fleet that gives gang bonuses.
and not to forget the fact that the way fleet battles are the Comander and gang modules are mutualy exclusive. Commanders need to be on the battlefield and calling targets while gang support needs to be off the battlefield, not getting blown up in 3 seconds.
I have never once since I started playing in the beta made a post in which i said that due to changes in the game My previusly trained skill points are now worthless. but as it looks now i have spent 8 million skill points on leadership so I can spec in gang bonuses, And since i'm not one of an alliences fleet commanders They really will be useless. because unlike other changes where the skill points just don't make you uber powerful. Now they reallly won't be used.
And even worse you tell us now that Kali has been "Frozen" when it's too late to change it.
Explain to me now why this will make a new player want to train for leadership skills?
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.11.11 00:26:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Elderberry Whine
Hey, you got your WCS nerf, what's the problem????
Care to explain what wcs nerf and leadership overhaull have to do with each other?
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.11 00:42:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Mudkest
Care to explain what wcs nerf and leadership overhaull have to do with each other?
...
They both share the letter 'e'?
...
Nah, I got nothing.
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.11 02:10:00 -
[68]
Originally by: SengH
Originally by: Parallax Error
You only give your gang bonuses to people under your command. Except Wing and Fleet commanders which should give their bonuses to each other, this bit is bugged.
What am I reading wrong from all the information thats been released? Nothing has alluded to any other option other than you can only boost people under your command.
You can only give bonuses to people under your command if the chain is intact
fleet commander <> wing commander <> squad commander <> squad member.
A squad commander has to be present in the SAME system /undocked as the wing commander. For the wing commander to commute his bonus to the squad.
For the fleet commander to give his bonus to the squad member, the fleet,wing and squad commander ALL have to be undocked in the same system.
Its adding simple bureaucracy.
Yeah, so it's as I thought. You pretty much have to be wing command or fleet command for your several million skill point investment to be worthwhile?
Definitely not impressed with this one, I think I shall just have to abuse Damps now.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.11 02:15:00 -
[69]
Using the leader's bonuses ONLY makes complete sense.
If my character is 'leading' a group of ships, it would by my leadership abilities (or lack thereof with my 50k sps in leadership) that help me lead you to make better use of your ship.
Right now it's just a pile of "ok lets use the best skills from both the leader and his followers, to help lead the gang better".
It makes no sense TBH. These changes will atleast make those high Charisma, leadership-trained chars, all 7 or 8 of them, very valuable.
Besides, nothing stops you from having a random corp/alliance member with uber leadership skills from making the gang, while your real FC gives orders over TS/Vent.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.11 02:25:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Using the leader's bonuses ONLY makes complete sense.
If my character is 'leading' a group of ships, it would by my leadership abilities (or lack thereof with my 50k sps in leadership) that help me lead you to make better use of your ship.
Right now it's just a pile of "ok lets use the best skills from both the leader and his followers, to help lead the gang better".
It makes no sense TBH. These changes will atleast make those high Charisma, leadership-trained chars, all 7 or 8 of them, very valuable.
Besides, nothing stops you from having a random corp/alliance member with uber leadership skills from making the gang, while your real FC gives orders over TS/Vent.
Apart from the fact that gang assist mods are logistics in all but the base skill tree name.
Your forcing people to take command roles and thus completely shifting the goalposts after hefty training periods.
Your making people use a whole line of ships that aren't suited to being in large scale ops at the front line.
If you have the real leader on vent etc you lose quite a lot of the quick response and functionality added for leaders with this new system. Gang warps for a starter.
You have to have an uninterrupted chain of command. Now instead of having to have one person in system you can need up to 3 to get a bonus.
If this system stays, formations better be pretty bloody good.
The only analogy I can think of to fully describe how this is affecting gang assist trained players would be this: Imagine CCP decided that drones, being a Gallente speciality could only be used on Gallente ships. Sure you could still use them, but what if you don't want to use Gallente ships? Same principle at work here, only it's a fairly rare and highly specialised area so not that many people are affected by it.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.11.11 04:09:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: grizouh
talking about higher skills:
when do you actually see eg 2 claymore with skirmish mods in one gang?
i rarely see any command ships at all in gangs, and don¦t tell me about the hac version with, if you are lucky, one module on it...
In the current system you don't usually see the fleet command ships - they're parked alongside the carriers in a POS.
Speaking of carriers... Everyone with 5mil+ in leadership (/me raises hand) should probably start thinking about carriers - with carrier skill at 4 you get 4 gang mods, and post Kali you have a very large hitpoint buffer...
Unless it has been changed for kali, carriers do not get +1 gang mod per level, only the motherships (larger ships that share the carrier skill and cost 20x as much) get that.
.
-----
It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Lenaria
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.11 07:38:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Lenaria on 11/11/2006 07:39:58
Its incredibly lame what "gang assist modules" require FC role to be applied. They have nothing to do with officially leading gangs, and there was never any sign of it. Its like allowing to remote armour repairing or remote sensor boosting only for FC...
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.11.11 08:23:00 -
[73]
So far seems that passive alt characters will suffer most from this change.
My alt will just about finish his long trek to Vulture, mindlink, and almost maxed leadership skills about the time Kali hits.
Initially leadership skills seemed perfect for a secondary character that cannot be very active in the actual combat (where most focus must be on the primary char).
Now it seems that in big gangs leading positions offer some extra functions/commands, so can't really waste such spot on passive char.
So, rather worried about such unexpected change in mechanism, but not going to yell 'i quit'..
-Lasse
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Tetovo
Caldari
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.11 08:39:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Tetovo on 11/11/2006 08:40:57
Guys you can make a squad and still give people bonuses. The only req to make a squad is the leadership skill which I'm sure the people with millions of sp in leadership that just got gimped don't have.
Read:
a Squadron Commander can invite anyone to his Squadron, but the Fleet Commander can also invite to that Squadron as itÆs a part of the fleet group.
The basic Leadership skill will be used for Squadron Commanders to run a Squadron. The skill allows you to have an active Squadron of up to maximum of 10 members (the commander is included).
This is what confuses people:
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics.
Gang refers to the old gang system, a fleet refers to the new system. No it doesn't need a fleet commander to give bonuses. Look at the screenshot in the devblog. Notice it still says wing and fleet, thus this gang has been made into a fleet, even though the fleet only consists of dupperTum and his two friends in their one squad. All signs point to no need for Wing/Fleet comms to receive bonuses.
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Binarii
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Posted - 2006.11.11 08:42:00 -
[75]
From reading the blog and looking at the screenshots it seems to me that:
- A flat out gang can be converted to a fleet no matter how many members it has.
- If I have trained leadership V, which is a prerequisite to running command modules, I can command a squadron of 10 to which my bonuses will apply.
- If I want my bonuses to work for a bigger fleet I have to train more leadership skills.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's like this I find the changes rather interesting with all the options the command structure opens up for more casual players.
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.11.11 10:14:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tetovo
Edited by: Tetovo on 11/11/2006 08:40:57
Guys you can make a squad and still give people bonuses. The only req to make a squad is the leadership skill which I'm sure the people with millions of sp in leadership that just got gimped don't have.
Read:
a Squadron Commander can invite anyone to his Squadron, but the Fleet Commander can also invite to that Squadron as itÆs a part of the fleet group.
The basic Leadership skill will be used for Squadron Commanders to run a Squadron. The skill allows you to have an active Squadron of up to maximum of 10 members (the commander is included).
This is what confuses people:
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics.
Gang refers to the old gang system, a fleet refers to the new system. No it doesn't need a fleet commander to give bonuses. Look at the screenshot in the devblog. Notice it still says wing and fleet, thus this gang has been made into a fleet, even though the fleet only consists of dupperTum and his two friends in their one squad. All signs point to no need for Wing/Fleet comms to receive bonuses.
thanks for clearing that up, that's what I was wonderign about, time to finish charisma learning skill training and then get leadership skills, with new BC might be interesting for small "fleets" :)
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
Ketrin
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:54:00 -
[77]
Quote:
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
6mil here, I'm happy \o/
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.11 12:50:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 11/11/2006 12:50:55
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
I am happy with the change along with the planned fixes. I don't like the roll back in abilities though. I think this is the first time CCP has rolled back abilities in the game with a patch.
You do NOT take something away to give it back with a skill. You just don't do that. Its not right. You at least have to grandfather existing players in.
I guess CCP just made a costly mistake thats hurting bandwidth too much.
Can you have 5+ mil in Leadership? I only hvae 1m but I got no plans to train anything other that the skills that work with the Claymore. I doubt I can hit 5m doing that.
____
"If your not dyin' your not tryin'."
"Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.11 16:46:00 -
[79]
yes yes you can form a fleet to use teh gang mods, and yes i know you could be squad leader or bigger but your still be FORCED into a Command position. I'm not a commander i'm Logistics.
and theres this other misconseption
Anyone traning for gang mods is an afk alt. And thus a lot of people are saying so what. But what about those people that are ACTIVE gang support players. This is what I do in the game and i have no alt.
And yes if your a commander of the fleet you do need to command specialy if they begin implimenting formations, now that they have added in new features it's just going to be more important that the right person be at teh top or near the top.
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Santiac
Under Heavy Fire
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:27:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Santiac on 11/11/2006 17:33:33
(i've been inactive for a while, so i'm not fully up to date with the upcoming changes)
So, if i get this right, things will be working as follows:
Position: Fleet Commander - Wing Commander - Squadron Commander
Bonus to: All under - All under - All under
Furthermore bonuses fluctuate between all Commanders (once fixed)
Given that there is no broken links in the chain.
Therefore alot of people will have trained for Gang Assist modules for no reason, seeing as they, aswell as myself, have no interest in leading.
While i do see the validity in the argument of only people with adequate skillpoints will get to make any use of their skills, the same was(is) true prior to the upcoming changes.
An interesting idea might be to let the effects linger after the destruction of the Commander one step above the chain.
Think of it as morale, in a slightly twisted version..
If the Fleet Commander is killed, his bonuses will linger on for X amount of time.
If a Wing Commander is subsequently also killed, his bonuses will linger - but the FC's will dissipate.
If a Wing Commander is killed, and a FC is still present, WC's will linger, but FC bonuses will be reduced (say, 50%)
If a Squadron Commander is subsequently killed the WC's bonuses will dissipate, and the FC bonuses will furtherly be reduced. Also the SC bonuses will linger
If only the Squadron Commander is present (FC and WC have been forcefully killed) only SC and lingering WC bonuses will apply.
If a Squadron Commander is killed, or otherwise rejects his position, anyone who is able to will be able to claim leadership, at which point his bonuses will substitue those of the former Cmdr., if any.
If a Wing Commander is killed, or otherwise rejects his position, anyone who is able to within the respective Squadrons under that wing will be given the option to claim leadership. At which point his bonuses will subsitute those of the former Cmdr, if it was the Commander of a squadron his position will be freed.
If a Fleet Commander is killed, anyone who is able to will be able to take control. At which point his bonuses will substitue those of the former FC, and if he/she was W/S-C, his/her position will be open.
Furthermore, give the Fleet Commander the ability to assign up to 1 extra Command Ship to any given Squadron, perhaps make this a seperate skill.
Level I: Able to assign 1 extra Commandship to any given wing
Level II: Able to assign 1 extra Commandship to two seperate wings.
Level V: Able to assign up to 5 extra commandships to any (or 1 to 5 seperate) wings.
Possibly let this skill apply for wing commanders assigning 1 extra ship to a squadron under him/her - or make a seperate skill for Wing Commanders and let the Fleet Commander skill effect the bonuses of Commandships under him instead.
(Note: To reduce the need to train up Gang Assist to Lead, make this/these skill(s) a seperate branch of the Leadership tree)
If these ships are present with their respective wing (or a squadron thereof) they will give full bonuses, if they are not present they're bonuses will be reduced. If they are considered retreated, fleed or have commited suicide same conditions will apply as if they were the commmander. Read Below.
Note:
If a Commander flees (docks, jumps) all of his bonuses dissipate.
If a Commander suicides all of his bonuses dissipate and all subsequent commanders' Gang bonuses is reduced (25%, for example)
If a Commander is not present with the Squadrons, the bonuses he grants will be reduced. If the said Cmdr is a Fleet Cmdr. the bonuses will not be reduced. If it is a Wing Cmdr. only his bonuses will be reduced slightly.
I'm aware these "changes" are rather complex, it is only a proposition, and therefore, if anyone feels it would be better in another manifestation, please state your opinion. :)
________________________________________
<insert clever/witty comment here>
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:34:00 -
[81]
Months and months ... totally wasted.
This needs to be fixed RIGHT AWAY!
 x 141521321 billion
<3  |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.11.11 23:16:00 -
[82]
Umm sry for being dense but lemme get this straight.
If im in a small corp and make a gang with friends my gang modules wont affect them unless were part of a fleet?
Sry i just dont understand this very well so bear with me.
I just want to know how this change will affect me since i will only be in a small pvp corp with friends and i was pursuing the claymore because i wanted to be a support character while the other guys did the dmg. I was planning on being in the front lines so SS were never an option for me; but will these changes stop me from simply using my gang mods in gangs?
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Santiac
Under Heavy Fire
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.11.11 23:54:00 -
[83]
Any gang will be able to transform into a fleet, disregardless of size. After which point you should be able to choose a commander, who will be able to grant those under his command bonuses from the gang assist skills and modules.
For more information check the Dev Blog :)
________________________________________
<insert clever/witty comment here>
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Deriger
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:27:00 -
[84]
I was training up to eventually get an Eos. Guess that is down the drain.
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Amerame
Section XIII
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:51:00 -
[85]
Command mods were already quite unpractical to use if you were not in a completely static gang, it's going to be so much worse with this system, who will bother ? The nerf is very bad for the fleet command ships, but t1 BC and field command fitting a gang mod will be things of the past.
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Sang Do
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:57:00 -
[86]
read blog, read topic.... cant got main idea (nerf?)
correct me if i`m not right
1. gang modules and skills will work now only on "sight" not on whole solar system?
2. group of 2 ppl ( Battlecruiser with module and 1 more any ship) wont recive bonus?
3. So throw on moon (hehe) alt filled with gang modules online + basic skills while main ship flying in system doing something not an option anymore?
4. gang members should be linked by a same corp and/or alliance?
tnx for attention
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.12 04:23:00 -
[87]
Sang do it's not a nerf in the normal sence where they make the modules effectiness lower, but more a restructuring of teh game mechanics on When you can use them.
So yeah basicly sort of a nerf, since they aren't as versitile as they used to be......i guess
but more along the lines of not happy with change
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SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.12 05:50:00 -
[88]
I nearly tore my hair out trying to get the stupid gang bonuses to work on test. I forsee alot of fleets just going **** it and just going without the gang bonuses due to the sheer bureaucracy needed to move everyone into the right location just to get them to work. Think 1hr formup times were bad? Well CCP just added another hour to that.
----------------------------------------
Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Linaria
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.12 05:59:00 -
[89]
With such drastical change in game mechanic i think it would be fair to demand SP refund from CCP. Make it possible to move SP from leadership skills to any other skill for a limited amount of time after Kali goes live.
Making gang assist modules affect the gang only if you have FC position - its like making drone skill affect your drones only if you are flying specialized drone ship like Dominix. Total screw up for anyone who can trained them before.
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Lonli Lonki
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.11.12 15:53:00 -
[90]
So most ppl who trained alt's on leadership now can cancel account subscriptions right?
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