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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.12 16:38:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Sang Do
read blog, read topic.... cant got main idea (nerf?)
correct me if i`m not right
1. gang modules and skills will work now only on "sight" not on whole solar system?
2. group of 2 ppl ( Battlecruiser with module and 1 more any ship) wont recive bonus?
3. So throw on moon (hehe) alt filled with gang modules online + basic skills while main ship flying in system doing something not an option anymore?
4. gang members should be linked by a same corp and/or alliance?
tnx for attention
1. wrong, afaik
2. wrong, afaik
3. wrong, afaik
4. wrong, definitely
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.12 16:43:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Skeltek on 12/11/2006 16:53:43
Originally by: Lonli Lonki
So most ppl who trained alt's on leadership now can cancel account subscriptions right?
Anybody may cancel his subscription, even without possesing a leadership char, but why should they do that? ^^
But to answer your questions: There is no reason to do that, leadership skills will still be distributed on others, even if not in the same grid afaik.
All you have to do is being an afk wingcommander or squadleader.
It is a rumor spread by some people that gangskills will no longer work from far away. Probably those people are trying to spread dissatisfaction and fear in the playerbase from the coming Kali changes.
A wingcommander giving gangsupport to up to 50 players may idle afk anywhere he wants.
Mixing a thread partially with false informations has always been a method to mobilize the community and make a change look bad in general, even if that part of facts turns out wrong at end, the person having spread them has reached his goal: a negative flair around a change, even though it is not as bad as it was described at first.
It is merely a rumor/fact of speculation that gangassist will not work from safespots any more.
kind regards, Skeltek
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:34:00 -
[93]
It's all very well saying just be a Squadron Commander or Wing Commander however.
1) In those positions you can only give the gang assist benefits to people under your command.
2) You don't know whether or not those people will have ot be on the frontline for certain functionality.
3) (Warning pure conjecture ahead here) CCP has stated this is the precursor to formations and more group based tactics, that sounds to me that the intention is every formation leader of whatever size should be on the front lines leading.
Which ever way you slice it up it's a massive shifting of the goal posts for the people that have trained up for warfare links.
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dust monkey
Minmatar
Tender Loving Care
Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.11.13 00:08:00 -
[94]
i am in favour of all the gang changes EXCEPT the restriction of the gang bonus to only 8+ people in the same gang, this wasn't what i trained over 1.5million sp for to be restircted in what my skill points can do i think they should scrap the gang bonus threshold as it doesnt give small roaming gangs much of an advantage.
---
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.13 19:40:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Skeltek
Edited by: Skeltek on 12/11/2006 16:53:43
But to answer your questions: There is no reason to do that, leadership skills will still be distributed on others, even if not in the same grid afaik.
All you have to do is being an afk wingcommander or squadleader.
A wingcommander giving gangsupport to up to 50 players may idle afk anywhere he wants.
kind regards, Skeltek
And i'll say it again yes you can be int he leadership position with out actualy leading but thats not the point.
You could form a corperation with an alt as teh ceo then delete the charatcer but really is that going to help you any?
they are giving the comanders special tools for managing teh gang or sub groups there of and the REal ingame commander is going to need those tools to match teh the enamies coordination, especialy when ccp adds more depth to formations and fleets.
so again that arguement is null and void and doesn't mean squat.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.13 21:22:00 -
[96]
Coolest is gonna be the uber fleets, with 1 titan and 5 motherships, and and 25 command ships..... all specialised in the correct gang bonuses.... don't think the idea is too have everyone flying in command ships. Especially not as fleet commander. And really if you get a 250 gang going, having the FC in a mothership really shouldn't be that big a deal.
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Decairn
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.13 22:14:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Decairn on 13/11/2006 22:19:24
To the last point, those in capital ships already have a very full and demanding training plan. Adding in the advanced leadership ones (leadership, a warfare, warefare spec, squad command, wing command, fleet command, cybernetics) is a tad heavy on top.
--Decairn
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SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.13 22:15:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Gariuys
Coolest is gonna be the uber fleets, with 1 titan and 5 motherships, and and 25 command ships..... all specialised in the correct gang bonuses.... don't think the idea is too have everyone flying in command ships. Especially not as fleet commander. And really if you get a 250 gang going, having the FC in a mothership really shouldn't be that big a deal.
That has to be the most retarded idea in this thread considering that command ships give better gang bonuses than motherships and the fact that 5 command ships would be far less skill intensive. Furthermore taking in mind that only the highest bonus in the chain works, makes this idea even more stupid.
----------------------------------------
Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.14 16:12:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Decairn
Edited by: Decairn on 13/11/2006 22:19:24
To the last point, those in capital ships already have a very full and demanding training plan. Adding in the advanced leadership ones (leadership, a warfare, warefare spec, squad command, wing command, fleet command, cybernetics) is a tad heavy on top.
Another post that interestingly completely ignors the entire thread.
and again what if the titan pilot doesn't want to be the Fleet commander?
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Karash Amerius
Amarr
O.E.C
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Posted - 2006.11.14 16:35:00 -
[100]
I am leadership spec'ed and am happy with the changes. So many changes favor the big blob fleets of huge alliances, this really helps us skirmishers and small scale pvp'ers.
Merc Blog |
Turtla
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Posted - 2006.11.14 16:51:00 -
[101]
Im a carrier pilot with high lvl of leadership skills. I like being the support ship with gang modules and remote repping at a safe. It's just me playing style, i don't like being in the front line. And now i need to be in a FC status to use the gange bonus, that's something i don't like
Charisma is the greatist attribute so lets nerf the great leadership skills that use charisma
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.11.14 18:16:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Turtla
...Charisma is the greatist attribute so lets nerf the great leadership skills that use charisma
It is? granted the leadership skills help a lot of those Gallente players who created high cha characters and never had anything useful to use them on ....but the greatest?
I have an alt that is currently training armour spec to 5 ... maybe train skirmish and siege spec to 4 for small wings and wing command to 3 .... it has to be said though that the char will have to be tanked like crazy as command ships will be primary due to them giving bonuses (not too hard to get very high resists in a da mnation with just t2 mods) |
Decairn
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.14 21:58:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Decairn on 14/11/2006 22:00:09
Originally by: Aleis
Originally by: Decairn
Edited by: Decairn on 13/11/2006 22:19:24
To the last point, those in capital ships already have a very full and demanding training plan. Adding in the advanced leadership ones (leadership, a warfare, warefare spec, squad command, wing command, fleet command, cybernetics) is a tad heavy on top.
Another post that interestingly completely ignors the entire thread.
and again what if the titan pilot doesn't want to be the Fleet commander?
Oh I agree with you Aleis if that's what you want to hear. I am one of those hit by this change and am not so happy about it. Didn't see any need to mention it previously.
My posts point was to show that the idea of capital pilots being in command with this structure is somewhat silly because they're already too busy with other skill trees as or more demanding.
This and the thread in the Kali testing forum have had no responses from devs which is disappointing. Would like to hear som feedback on our feedback before its jammed in with Kali.
--Decairn
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.15 04:21:00 -
[104]
ahh i see what your getting at, sorry then and....yeah good point......and really it is now that i think about it or rather now that i'm starting to train up for carriers more or less from scratch (I didn't train up for big ships) I'm looking at 3 months of training just to get into a carrier and i've been on for a long time,
I can't imagine what it would be like for a new player to not only try and get into capital ships but also be able to really handle gang assist modles, 6 months? of dedicated training almost i'm thinking, and thats not to be really good simply adiquate? longer once they add in the new required skills for controlling large gangs. 7 months of dedicated traning just ot be a fleet commander?....ouch specilization is great but really that intensive of spec. into something as universal as running a gang is wayyy to long.
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Wicaeed
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.15 04:51:00 -
[105]
I don't see why they have to always overnerf things.
Just make gang bonuses disappear if your gang is over 50 people in size, or something along those lines. It would encourage forming fleets.
Now to just fix the lag.
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Vox'Dei
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:18:00 -
[106]
How much processing could it take to figure out who has the best gang assist bonuses?
Bad programmers or they need some code overhaul.
Anyway don't fix whats not broken. Adding functionality for a commander thats at the battle AND saying his gang mods only work when he is command is stupid. The way eve is now no important ship would last more then the time it takes to lock it without being in constant warp. If there are spies in the enemy corp or some members that joined the other one who have any knowledge of who has leadership ability it's game over.
Anyway, this looks like an attempt to make leadership a more used tree but all its going to do is make it inaccessable to more people.
Rename the leadership tree to logistics. Let gang bonuses stay the way they are. Add functionality as a new fleet command tree. Give the newly created leadership tree the ability to bestow all this new functionality in the blog. Allow the functionality to be used by cloaked ships.
There is absolutly no reason to nerf something no one was complaining about. I like the structure but it shouldnt be attached to skill points, and from the general consensus so far most do not like the current implementation either.
Anyone who chose leadership knows what they got into. It is not about being in or near the battle. It can't be. No ships can tank a fleet of damage (without ubbermonths of skillpoints into cap ships)
In summary just dont give any of this new stuff skillpoint requirements and make gangmods work for everybody. Then everybody's happy.
/random latenight rant
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Marc Vestabule
Minmatar
Amnion Partners
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Posted - 2006.11.15 14:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Vox'Dei
How much processing could it take to figure out who has the best gang assist bonuses?
Bad programmers or they need some code overhaul.
Anyway don't fix whats not broken.
There is absolutly no reason to nerf something no one was complaining about.
Actually people have been very vocal and complained alot about this....its just that they did not know this was one the causes of their complaint. You cannot have failed to notice all the posts about nodes crashing, massive lag on jumping into systems have you?? What do you think was a large contributing factor??
A couple of year's ago fleet battles were almost exclusively interceptors and battleships and there were no gang skills therefore once you go past the initial loading lag (though this could be horrid) the battles where ok.
Spin forward to today. Fleets are now made up on a variety of ships including command ships. Gang skills have been implemented to. The effect is that information gang and ship bonuses needs to pass to every other ship in the battle. once a new person enters with a improved gang skill or gang mod or command ship these have to be recalculated and distributed. This greatly increases the information passing between all the clients involved in the battle and the server especially when you jump into a system.
Imagine when 100 pilots jump into a camp of another 100 pilots. When they enter the system the attacking gang clients communicate their gang bonuses to work out which ones to apply to all the ships in the gang, and then this is communicated to the 200 pilots in the system. If, for instance, a Eos pilot jumps in slightly slower his bonuses would cause the calculations to be repeated as the 99 other ships in his gang are updated and the results broadcast to the 200 pilots. The result is horrendous lag and, when the system overloads, the death of a node.
Basically CCP must have been faced with the decision to remove all the feature implemented (Command ships, gang bonuses etc) or simplify the gang features to reduce the load on the node. I think they were sensible in chosing the latter rather the former and attempting at the same time to make it a feature rather than a pure nerf.
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Prolapse
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Posted - 2006.11.15 14:45:00 -
[108]
This is a Nerf barely disguised as a feature IMO
(I used to refer to bugs as unwanted features so know one when I see one)
As far as I see there are some bonuses to this
1. the need to calculate gang bonuses need only be calculated on leadership changes. - less lag àyay
2. More Structured combat ...Hurrah
3. Large fleets will require more fleet commanders to get bonuses to everyone.
4. No more hidden players giving bonusesÆ from safe spots.
There are far more intrusive negatives though.
1. To get gang bonuses you have to be a commanderàà Directly penalising those who just wanted to help support their gang mates.
2. Small gangs will not get their bonus at all as they donÆt even qualify due to size. This penalises small corps quite badly.
3. The fleet leaders will be more or less forced to be in a command/capital ship and easily identified from their new frontline positions and thus always primary target.
4. This is a major change very late in the day which will likely cause many people to forgo the whole leadership skill set. And those with it to feel aggrieved at an arbitrary change effectively making some of their training worthless.
I am one of those affected badly and although not totally incapable of leading a fleet. I feel uncomfortable and rarely do so due to home circumstances having too many distractions and my casual playing habits. Having all the specializations to at least L4 and command ships to 5 with the gang bonus implants means this will be an awful lot of unused training time and ISK wasted.
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Greenbolt
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:09:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Greenbolt on 15/11/2006 17:11:56
One thing that bothers me not about the implementation but about the concept.
(And yes I fit gang modules so it applies to me too)
Most of the gang modules arent really 'leadership based' and should have nothing to do with the commander.
They seem more to fit the role of a Specialist ship fit in the fleet/gang instead.
How do your gang/fleets other ships go faster or your sig radius seem smaller...or your modules work longer range (all the skirmish bonuses that I use for example)
You have a ship with enhanced computers and modules running processes via link that your gang/fleets other ships normally would do for themselves. So it constantly tweaks those other ships systems allowing optimal results you could not get on your own with that present ships hardware..
This has absoultely nothing with leading a gang. Actually I would argue that this type of speciality ship would make a lousy gang leader as its focus is about integration and optimization and wouldnt have time to do this and analyze enemy movements as well.
Command ships should have been just specialized ships that made hard targets (you would want to defend all these speciality equipment best you can) but without any combat direct bonuses at all.
Unfortantly CCP made the HAC varients..and even the non HAC varients fairly strong combatants as well because of all the THIS SHIP MUST POWN 1 on 1 crap because it requires so many skill points.
Bah make it a true mini-profession to fly these .take away there gunboat bonuses and dont make the leaders fly them. Aka make them really useful in gangs...and useless or near useless solo.
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Pearl Charaxes
Office linebackers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.15 20:45:00 -
[110]
wts gang skill speced alt, 2 mill any takers?
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McCool
Spontaneous Defenestration
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Posted - 2006.11.15 22:13:00 -
[111]
the sun is going to expload in about 5 billion years and here you are, whining about a game that wont survive the massive blast.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Crimson Knights Trade Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.15 23:07:00 -
[112]
Question - Do you need the Fleet Command skill to form a fleet?.. If so, then this change has completely f'd Leadership skills since you need Leadership 5, and then Wing Command 5, just to start on Fleet Command.. That's a bit harsh.. I mean I can understand restricting the bonus to coming from just the gang leader, that makes sense.. You lead, you give the bonuses to your gang followers.. But to require 2+ months training solely in Leadership skills just to get the gang skills to apply kinda sucks.. And sucks in a big juicy sucky way.. It's like saying you can't use blasters at all until you can use T2 blasters. WTF?!!.. I hope I'm wrong and any gang can convert to a fleet regardless of skills, but it certainly does not read that way in the blog.. 
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