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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:15:08
This will be my first post since the first time i played in the Beta where i have specificly stated CCP made a serius mistake in changes to the game. I do not write this happily
So I just finished reading the new dev blog about the new gang hirearchy, And remainded speechless for about 5 sec. before I realized how much that swift kick to the nuts really hurt.
At first it sounds really cool having the gang split up into squads and being able to issue orders. But then theres those little mentions about how gang bonuses are going to work.
Unless your in a "Fleet" gang bonuses WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
Well that works out well for small corps and the rest of the world not being an allience.
And worse even if you are in a fleet only the bonuses of commanders and squad leaders Will be used at all!
then there was this really laughable line at the very end saying this new thing will make people more interested in specializing for leadership bonuses!!
How exactly is that supposed to work when you have restricted leaderships usefullness to large scale fleet battles and only the commanders of those battles? because let me tell you I really want some noob thats just starting to train the skill to be the only person in my fleet that gives gang bonuses.
and not to forget the fact that the way fleet battles are the Comander and gang modules are mutualy exclusive. Commanders need to be on the battlefield and calling targets while gang support needs to be off the battlefield, not getting blown up in 3 seconds.
I have never once since I started playing in the beta made a post in which i said that due to changes in the game My previusly trained skill points are now worthless. but as it looks now i have spent 8 million skill points on leadership so I can spec in gang bonuses, And since i'm not one of an alliences fleet commanders They really will be useless. because unlike other changes where the skill points just don't make you uber powerful. Now they reallly won't be used.
And even worse you tell us now that Kali has been "Frozen" when it's too late for us to change it.
Explain to me now why this will make a noob want to train for leadership skills?
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Cold Gorilla
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:20:00 -
[2]
One of the reasons behind this changes is to not give too much advantages to BLOBS.
in a 100 man gang, you only need 4 Fleet command ships, 1 from every race with their own bonuses, Its some serious advantage, and don't forget titans. ei: 7.5 hp bonus to armor or shield.
at lvl 4, thats 30% hp bonus.
the way they made it, is key members of your gang will be able to take advantage.
for small gangs, you can change an 8 man gang into fleet mod, and every one will receive the FC's bonuses.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:22:00 -
[3]
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:36:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:38:38
I understand what it is Meantto do, but in the way it was implimented it has knee capped all but a specific few individuals.
Offering a salution what if they implimented another special role such as the scout but make it a "Support" role and allow 1-2 or so individuals to be placed with that role.
The problem is that it has made the usfullness of gang modules and bonuses to Specalized. Now to be usefull I have to not only pre-train the skills to a usefulll lvl bit also be able and want to be a fleet commander of medium to large groups
Interestingly enough in order to make blobs less viable they have destroyed the small scale groupings
also a smaller corps getting an 8 person gang together can be difficult in and of itself
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:42:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 10/11/2006 14:43:42
 Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
Not me for starters. I trained up for the gang assist modules to do what they said at the time, aid the rest of the members in my gang. I don't like how you are now forced to take a lead role and make the fleet suffer the loss of the new functionality if you stay away from the initial engagement, or the other option being turning up to a fleet engagement in a ship that is ill equipped for the job.
Unlike some gang assist tactics I do tend to end up in the thick of things, but I don't tend to end up fighting in anything bigger than 40-50 man fleets and I make sure I stay in positions where I can make a difference but don't become instantly obvious as a target.
The main reason why I fly an Eos over a D-a-m-nation (stupid filter) is because even in a gang assist setup it can still handle itself fairly well (and it's also a beast if you ignore Gang assists and go for a full combat setup). I'm not phobic about fighting in a gang assist ship, i'll make it clear I wouldn't bother if it was a full on 200km fleet fight however, but I think its entirely unfair to force gang assist users to be on the front lines running the show or else.
A much better option is an assignable role like scout where the Fleet Commander and/or Wing commanders can set someone as their proxy for gang assist mods. That way you dont have to check anymore people than the current Sisi proposal but you don't force gang assist pilots to bave to lead from the front in ill designed ships.
I know theres a plan to do this for Squadron Commanders but I really don't think its needed at that level. It's the higher echelons of command where the actual commanders should be able to delegate.
Summary:
It's currently silly and needs changing to a delegatable role from Fleet and/or Wing Commanders.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 10/11/2006 14:44:27
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
I will never disagree with you about training up Adv charisma again.
Actually, Given the cheapness of +4 and +5 Cha Implants, I see a instant "i-win" moneymaker as people who cannot be bothered to train adv charisma looking for a short term fix after Kali hits.
---
Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
FREE |
Braxxor
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Aleis
The other question you should ask is. Are there any people that were thinking of training leadership skills that are still interested?
I was planning on training for a Vulture, and picking up the requisite Siege and Skirmish warfare skills, w/ the Specialist skills up to 5. Gonna put that off for now, until it's usefulness has been further evaluated.
Only got about 410k into Leadership skills, which is nice because one of those was Leadership V, which as I understand it is still of some decent usefulness, despite the gang assist bonus changes.
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Norris Neophitus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:53:00 -
[8]
Just made my made it pointless for me to train for FC as there is nothing i like less than leading the gang, i'm not sure if they are trying to force people to use Command ships for that specific role or if they are trying to stop their use outside of fleet combat.
seems to me this will effect the noobs most of all as a noob corp will be going into combat with fewer bonuses and will also make it tougher for a noob to progress through the ranks of fleet combat.
NERFED gangs
I have to say i do find the whole idea interesting and it sounds like the commanders gonna have to spend all their time organising the wings and stuff in different channels
---------------------------------------------------
|Phoon = biggest baddest ship in eve-------|
|Oh and somebody kill all those old unused|
|secure cans (Personal Crusade)------------|
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:57:00 -
[9]
Perhaps many people have been using their scouts as fleet commanders.
Scouts should be the eyes of the fleet, scouts should be identifying soft targets.
Fleet commanders should be looking at the bigger picture. The overall state of his fleet of ships, the state of the enemy fleet, what other scouts are reporting to him. Making decisions about where to move the fleet and when those moves should be made.
And if you don't like that distribution of responsibility, consider the fleet commanders role to simply be navigator for the fleet, taking his orders for fleet movement from the true commander who is in a cloaked vessel surveying he battlefield.
If this system were completely cut and dried, it wouldn't be any fun. 
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Malena
Perpetual Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:03:00 -
[10]
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
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Rafein
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:15:00 -
[11]
Eh, all they really did was make Leadership skills give a bonus for actually being a Leader. Much like training guns actually gives a bonus to useing guns.
Granted, it would have been nice to have all these things in since gang were implemented, but better late than never.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Malena
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
Nonsense. You can be squad commander or wing commander and give bonuses to either you squad (max 10 people) or lots of wings (10-50 people), all without any need to lead anyone anywhere, designate targets, or do any of that icky stuff. 
Sure, if you want to actually give bonuses to every single person in the fleet, then you have to act as FC. But even then, it's quite possible to act as gang-related FC and just take care of the gang logicstics, while the real FC gives the actual orders.
Saying your training is useless is silly. The sky is not falling, unless you want to it.
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:22:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:25:12
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:24:24
exactly thats the problem, they impliment this major change after people have put millions of skill points into the catagory.
it would be like you training all those gunnery skill points then them saying in each gang only the "Fighter" will be allowed to use guns and you are only allowed to have 3 in each gang.
Saying your training is useless is silly. The sky is not falling, unless you want to it.
Or if your in a small nonallience corp.
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Cold Gorilla
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Malena
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
clocked fleet command ship anyone?
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Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
Im not happy, thinking i should have trained for Capitals instead now 
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cold Gorilla
Originally by: Malena
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
clocked fleet command ship anyone?
Uhh cloak means no active modules,.....how exactly is that supposed to help with gang support modules that need to be activated?
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Norris Neophitus
Just made my made it pointless for me to train for FC as there is nothing i like less than leading the gang
That statement wins the "say what?" award for today.
Yes, it's pointless to train for FC if you don't like leading gangs. Duh. Kali has nothing to do with that.
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[18]
Edited by: grizouh on 10/11/2006 15:27:37
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
i am not, not at all.
to the rafein: gang assist modules have nothing to do with leadership, it is not our fault that these skills are named like this.
to the poster above:
gang assist mods do not work while cloaked or in warp
already wrote more to this topic, if you are interested just check my last posts over the profile
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:38:00 -
[19]
These changes did upset me a great deal, but not for the reasons that I keep seeing mentioned.
I kind of like the fact that the command ships must be in leadership roles. This helps force command ships out of their safespots. This doesn't bother me much because I always fly a command ship from the front line, and I'm usually commanding.
What I don't like is that Bonus's don't affect everybody in the group. Bonus's seem to be limited to those in the group under you only. This is incredbly lame, and even Tomb admitted his was being done simply because they couldn't find an efficient way to do it without eating up lots of cpu time.
So I've recommended that they let the overall fleet commander choose which characters are used to generate teh bonus's and save the servers the extra load. I think they heard this suggestion because there was some mention of it in one of tomb's posts.
My feeling is that the entire system was just an effort by CCP to sort of make us feel like we were getting some new content, when in reality they are just setting it up so its easier for the server to compute. I'd much rather just have the fleet commanders designate which ships generate bonus's and keep things the way they are with regards to gang bonus's.
That being said, I still DO like the idea that command ships are being nudged out of their holes. Which is good, because the last thing this game needs is anther class of ships intended for your alt.
Shamis
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swoj
The New Order.
United Connection's
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:43:00 -
[20]
got to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!
I like the new gang structure, makes people think about what they are doing in a gang, however I'm sure that with a little time everyone will figure out how to best 'use' the system to get the maximum benefit from it
Quote:
How exactly is that supposed to work when you have restricted leaderships usefullness to large scale fleet battles and only the commanders of those battles? because let me tell you I really want some noob thats just starting to train the skill to be the only person in my fleet that gives gang bonuses.
well... if some noob is all you have with gang bonuses then I really don't see how you can complain about how bonuses are applied in the new gang setup, you won't exactly be losing much!
If you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:54:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:55:28
swoj you failing to see the point of that post, so i'll restate it
with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position. Therefore people will ahve to train over 2 million skill points into a catagory Before they get ANY use out of them.
And yes i know the comment about how commanders will have to be promoted and moved in to position, but honestly if your a lfeet commander are you going to want to have 2-3 ships setup for gang support that won't be used until/unless you get blown up? no your going to tell them to get into something useful and fight so he doesn't get blown up.
If you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)
and what if you don't want to be the fleet commander, or as i've stated before are in a small non allience corp.
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Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: swoj
stuff
I trained the GANG assist modules to Assit my gang. Im no uber pvper and no fleet leader. But i am a team player and i do want to contribute other than just being a dictor/tackler. Hence Gang assistance modules were the route i took.
Had i known CCP were gonna change the goal posts as much id have invested my 6 months and 5.7 mil sps in BS 5 and capitals instead.
On the plus side i see Command ships being cheaper now 
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: swoj
got to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!
did you spend any points in leadership?
if not better do, because maybe some of the old ga people may stop flying gangassist and refrain from training even more time sink skills for being even less effective than before and prefer to start to do pew pew too as all the others do ^^
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cadman Weyland
Originally by: swoj
stuff
On the plus side i see Command ships being cheaper now
oooo Good point, that is one thing i hadn't thought of, then again being minmitar Claymores were already cheaper than either of the two HACs and the Slipnier almost so only 20-30 mil more than a muninn
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2006 16:05:46
ôgot to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!ö
The skills and modules them self have always been about gang assist and helping the gang not leading. I like the changeÆs in that command ships are now better at commanding but I donÆt like the way gang assist no long assist gangs unless your leading. Leadership is not all about being a leader. If you look at the CEO of real life company its not just the leader who has Leadership skills.
Regular used skills that are 3 years old shouldnÆt suddenly get changed in the way they work. What about all the groups who have each train up one of the leadership skills. So when they fly in a gang they have all the bonusÆs. Now they get 1 bonus and everyone else has wasted skill points. There are lots of examples where people have spent time training skills and can no longer use those skills. ThatÆs unfair. Someone should not after years of skills working find out that millions of skillpoints are now useless.
ôIf you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)ö
What if your a small gang mixed of amour and shield tankers. The shield tankers took shield gang skills and the amour tankers took amour gang skills. Now both skills activate with this change either the amour or shield tankers have to go without the bonusÆs and someone has a bunch of wasted skillpoints.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Redginald
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:04:00 -
[26]
I too was thinking about training for Command modules and such but I am glad I didn't get as far as any leadership skills. With 30+mill sp's and specialized in HAC's I thought the Command ships would be a nice advantage to fleets as well as keeping the nice stats of a HAC. I just got as far as training up BC and was about to start the leadership skills, not anymore.
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aleis
Unless your in a "Fleet" gang bonuses WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
Form a fleet without a Fleetcommander.
Form a fleet without secondary wings.
Get yourself 40 people into your wing.
Any player who has the ability to give gangbonuses should be able to get a 40 playerwing within a few days.
If your corp is really that small like you claim it to be, you should totaly be happy with a few hours of training for a 30-man sized gang.
If you don¦t want the commandship to be endangered, let is sit in a safespot. You do not have to make use of the fleetcommander functions if you do not want to. Stick to the old playing style.
It is ridiculous from the start that a ship located 1200 AU away is able to "coordinate" gangefficiency(give bonuses). You should be thankfull that this is still possible. There MUST be a drawback for not having the gangassisting ship in the battlefield, so just keep to the old system and don¦t make use of the new gangfunctions if you do not want to.
There is no point in flaming a change if the initial gameaspect/phylosophy was wrong from the start. If you have adapted to a system that was wrong from the initial concept, it¦s your fault.
It was totaly foreseeable that it would get changed one day when the time is right.
Imho they should change fleetcommandships to only give bonuses if present in the middle of the battlefield. No more free advantages over the enemy without any risk, just because you have one single guy with some SP in the background waiting 1200AU away. But I guess that is a dream that CCP will never fullfill me = P
Either take your fleetcommandships to the field of battle, live without the new FC features or take the FC features without him himself giving the bonuses. No reason to give up the old system if you don¦t want to.
kind regards, Skeltek
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:29:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 10/11/2006 16:34:15
Originally by: Pottsey
What if your a small gang mixed of amour and shield tankers. The shield tankers took shield gang skills and the amour tankers took amour gang skills. Now both skills activate with this change either the amour or shield tankers have to go without the bonusÆs and someone has a bunch of wasted skillpoints.
Ummm... no.
What you do in that case is have (for example) the armor tank booster as squad leader and shield booster as the wing commander. Voila. Everyone gets armor + shield bonuses, just like before.
(note: currently the commanders don't boost each other, but TomB has confirmed this is a bug and due to current technical issues)
Of course, this applies if you have a max of 10 people in squad. If you have more, you need more (sub) commanders with the relevant skills. In the case you're describing, very little if anything is changing, you just have to "manually" have the person with the best bonuses act in a leadership slot, instead of the game automatically using the highest bonuses. The skill training is a non-issue for small gangs, since you already have Leadership V already if you're into gang stuff, and Wing Commander is fast for the first three levels or so (and you only need one person as the wing commander, the others can be squad leaders as-is with their Leadership V).
The new stuff only gets expensive skillwise if you want to lead larger fleets. For small gangs, all that is required is some rethink and organization, very little is actually changing. In return, you're getting some nice new tools for the commanders (on all 3 levels).
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2006 16:05:46
ôgot to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!ö
The skills and modules them self have always been about gang assist and helping the gang not leading. I like the changeÆs in that command ships are now better at commanding but I donÆt like the way gang assist no long assist gangs unless your leading. Leadership is not all about being a leader. If you look at the CEO of real life company its not just the leader who has Leadership skills.
Regular used skills that are 3 years old shouldnÆt suddenly get changed in the way they work. What about all the groups who have each train up one of the leadership skills. So when they fly in a gang they have all the bonusÆs. Now they get 1 bonus and everyone else has wasted skill points. There are lots of examples where people have spent time training skills and can no longer use those skills. ThatÆs unfair. Someone should not after years of skills working find out that millions of skillpoints are now useless.
ôIf you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)ö
What if your a small gang mixed of amour and shield tankers. The shield tankers took shield gang skills and the amour tankers took amour gang skills. Now both skills activate with this change either the amour or shield tankers have to go without the bonusÆs and someone has a bunch of wasted skillpoints.
Pottsey, I rarely disagree with you... however I don't think you've thought this one through.
In your example, I would simply assign the person with the best shield gang skills as commander of a squadron of shield tanking vessels, the person with the best armor tank gang skills commander of a squadron of armor tankers. (Remember, a squadron need only have one other member in it if necessary).
And then if there is someone with appropriate helpful skills that would benefit the entire gang, make them Commander of a Wing that includes both of the Squadrons. So on and so forth as the groups get larger and larger.
People complaining that their skills will go to waste because they are not in an alliance need to think about this as well. A Wing need have no more than 5 people in it... and if I've looked at it properly a fleet need really have no more than 11 people in it.
I do see people establishing their own chain of command structure that they habitually fall into to maximize the benefits to the group, large fleets will require some thought. But I really don't see any training done as a waste.
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aleis
with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position.
If there are any people with better gangassist skills than you have, you were even more useless from the start in the old system? ^^
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