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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:15:08
This will be my first post since the first time i played in the Beta where i have specificly stated CCP made a serius mistake in changes to the game. I do not write this happily
So I just finished reading the new dev blog about the new gang hirearchy, And remainded speechless for about 5 sec. before I realized how much that swift kick to the nuts really hurt.
At first it sounds really cool having the gang split up into squads and being able to issue orders. But then theres those little mentions about how gang bonuses are going to work.
Unless your in a "Fleet" gang bonuses WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
Well that works out well for small corps and the rest of the world not being an allience.
And worse even if you are in a fleet only the bonuses of commanders and squad leaders Will be used at all!
then there was this really laughable line at the very end saying this new thing will make people more interested in specializing for leadership bonuses!!
How exactly is that supposed to work when you have restricted leaderships usefullness to large scale fleet battles and only the commanders of those battles? because let me tell you I really want some noob thats just starting to train the skill to be the only person in my fleet that gives gang bonuses.
and not to forget the fact that the way fleet battles are the Comander and gang modules are mutualy exclusive. Commanders need to be on the battlefield and calling targets while gang support needs to be off the battlefield, not getting blown up in 3 seconds.
I have never once since I started playing in the beta made a post in which i said that due to changes in the game My previusly trained skill points are now worthless. but as it looks now i have spent 8 million skill points on leadership so I can spec in gang bonuses, And since i'm not one of an alliences fleet commanders They really will be useless. because unlike other changes where the skill points just don't make you uber powerful. Now they reallly won't be used.
And even worse you tell us now that Kali has been "Frozen" when it's too late for us to change it.
Explain to me now why this will make a noob want to train for leadership skills?
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Cold Gorilla
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:20:00 -
[2]
One of the reasons behind this changes is to not give too much advantages to BLOBS.
in a 100 man gang, you only need 4 Fleet command ships, 1 from every race with their own bonuses, Its some serious advantage, and don't forget titans. ei: 7.5 hp bonus to armor or shield.
at lvl 4, thats 30% hp bonus.
the way they made it, is key members of your gang will be able to take advantage.
for small gangs, you can change an 8 man gang into fleet mod, and every one will receive the FC's bonuses.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:22:00 -
[3]
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:36:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:38:38
I understand what it is Meantto do, but in the way it was implimented it has knee capped all but a specific few individuals.
Offering a salution what if they implimented another special role such as the scout but make it a "Support" role and allow 1-2 or so individuals to be placed with that role.
The problem is that it has made the usfullness of gang modules and bonuses to Specalized. Now to be usefull I have to not only pre-train the skills to a usefulll lvl bit also be able and want to be a fleet commander of medium to large groups
Interestingly enough in order to make blobs less viable they have destroyed the small scale groupings
also a smaller corps getting an 8 person gang together can be difficult in and of itself
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:42:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 10/11/2006 14:43:42
 Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
Not me for starters. I trained up for the gang assist modules to do what they said at the time, aid the rest of the members in my gang. I don't like how you are now forced to take a lead role and make the fleet suffer the loss of the new functionality if you stay away from the initial engagement, or the other option being turning up to a fleet engagement in a ship that is ill equipped for the job.
Unlike some gang assist tactics I do tend to end up in the thick of things, but I don't tend to end up fighting in anything bigger than 40-50 man fleets and I make sure I stay in positions where I can make a difference but don't become instantly obvious as a target.
The main reason why I fly an Eos over a D-a-m-nation (stupid filter) is because even in a gang assist setup it can still handle itself fairly well (and it's also a beast if you ignore Gang assists and go for a full combat setup). I'm not phobic about fighting in a gang assist ship, i'll make it clear I wouldn't bother if it was a full on 200km fleet fight however, but I think its entirely unfair to force gang assist users to be on the front lines running the show or else.
A much better option is an assignable role like scout where the Fleet Commander and/or Wing commanders can set someone as their proxy for gang assist mods. That way you dont have to check anymore people than the current Sisi proposal but you don't force gang assist pilots to bave to lead from the front in ill designed ships.
I know theres a plan to do this for Squadron Commanders but I really don't think its needed at that level. It's the higher echelons of command where the actual commanders should be able to delegate.
Summary:
It's currently silly and needs changing to a delegatable role from Fleet and/or Wing Commanders.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 10/11/2006 14:44:27
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
I will never disagree with you about training up Adv charisma again.
Actually, Given the cheapness of +4 and +5 Cha Implants, I see a instant "i-win" moneymaker as people who cannot be bothered to train adv charisma looking for a short term fix after Kali hits.
---
Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
FREE |
Braxxor
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Aleis
The other question you should ask is. Are there any people that were thinking of training leadership skills that are still interested?
I was planning on training for a Vulture, and picking up the requisite Siege and Skirmish warfare skills, w/ the Specialist skills up to 5. Gonna put that off for now, until it's usefulness has been further evaluated.
Only got about 410k into Leadership skills, which is nice because one of those was Leadership V, which as I understand it is still of some decent usefulness, despite the gang assist bonus changes.
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Norris Neophitus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:53:00 -
[8]
Just made my made it pointless for me to train for FC as there is nothing i like less than leading the gang, i'm not sure if they are trying to force people to use Command ships for that specific role or if they are trying to stop their use outside of fleet combat.
seems to me this will effect the noobs most of all as a noob corp will be going into combat with fewer bonuses and will also make it tougher for a noob to progress through the ranks of fleet combat.
NERFED gangs
I have to say i do find the whole idea interesting and it sounds like the commanders gonna have to spend all their time organising the wings and stuff in different channels
---------------------------------------------------
|Phoon = biggest baddest ship in eve-------|
|Oh and somebody kill all those old unused|
|secure cans (Personal Crusade)------------|
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:57:00 -
[9]
Perhaps many people have been using their scouts as fleet commanders.
Scouts should be the eyes of the fleet, scouts should be identifying soft targets.
Fleet commanders should be looking at the bigger picture. The overall state of his fleet of ships, the state of the enemy fleet, what other scouts are reporting to him. Making decisions about where to move the fleet and when those moves should be made.
And if you don't like that distribution of responsibility, consider the fleet commanders role to simply be navigator for the fleet, taking his orders for fleet movement from the true commander who is in a cloaked vessel surveying he battlefield.
If this system were completely cut and dried, it wouldn't be any fun. 
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Malena
Perpetual Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:03:00 -
[10]
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
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Rafein
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:15:00 -
[11]
Eh, all they really did was make Leadership skills give a bonus for actually being a Leader. Much like training guns actually gives a bonus to useing guns.
Granted, it would have been nice to have all these things in since gang were implemented, but better late than never.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Malena
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
Nonsense. You can be squad commander or wing commander and give bonuses to either you squad (max 10 people) or lots of wings (10-50 people), all without any need to lead anyone anywhere, designate targets, or do any of that icky stuff. 
Sure, if you want to actually give bonuses to every single person in the fleet, then you have to act as FC. But even then, it's quite possible to act as gang-related FC and just take care of the gang logicstics, while the real FC gives the actual orders.
Saying your training is useless is silly. The sky is not falling, unless you want to it.
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:22:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:25:12
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:24:24
exactly thats the problem, they impliment this major change after people have put millions of skill points into the catagory.
it would be like you training all those gunnery skill points then them saying in each gang only the "Fighter" will be allowed to use guns and you are only allowed to have 3 in each gang.
Saying your training is useless is silly. The sky is not falling, unless you want to it.
Or if your in a small nonallience corp.
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Cold Gorilla
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Malena
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
clocked fleet command ship anyone?
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Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
Im not happy, thinking i should have trained for Capitals instead now 
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cold Gorilla
Originally by: Malena
8.6 million in leadership...basically down the tubes. The character that has them is not a fleet commander, not will he ever be... it will not be viable for him to be the one designating targets and such while he is in the FC role, and he won't be giving bonusses unless he is in that FC role, at least that is how I understand it. So no, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES.
clocked fleet command ship anyone?
Uhh cloak means no active modules,.....how exactly is that supposed to help with gang support modules that need to be activated?
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Norris Neophitus
Just made my made it pointless for me to train for FC as there is nothing i like less than leading the gang
That statement wins the "say what?" award for today.
Yes, it's pointless to train for FC if you don't like leading gangs. Duh. Kali has nothing to do with that.
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:25:00 -
[18]
Edited by: grizouh on 10/11/2006 15:27:37
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
i am not, not at all.
to the rafein: gang assist modules have nothing to do with leadership, it is not our fault that these skills are named like this.
to the poster above:
gang assist mods do not work while cloaked or in warp
already wrote more to this topic, if you are interested just check my last posts over the profile
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:38:00 -
[19]
These changes did upset me a great deal, but not for the reasons that I keep seeing mentioned.
I kind of like the fact that the command ships must be in leadership roles. This helps force command ships out of their safespots. This doesn't bother me much because I always fly a command ship from the front line, and I'm usually commanding.
What I don't like is that Bonus's don't affect everybody in the group. Bonus's seem to be limited to those in the group under you only. This is incredbly lame, and even Tomb admitted his was being done simply because they couldn't find an efficient way to do it without eating up lots of cpu time.
So I've recommended that they let the overall fleet commander choose which characters are used to generate teh bonus's and save the servers the extra load. I think they heard this suggestion because there was some mention of it in one of tomb's posts.
My feeling is that the entire system was just an effort by CCP to sort of make us feel like we were getting some new content, when in reality they are just setting it up so its easier for the server to compute. I'd much rather just have the fleet commanders designate which ships generate bonus's and keep things the way they are with regards to gang bonus's.
That being said, I still DO like the idea that command ships are being nudged out of their holes. Which is good, because the last thing this game needs is anther class of ships intended for your alt.
Shamis
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swoj
The New Order.
United Connection's
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:43:00 -
[20]
got to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!
I like the new gang structure, makes people think about what they are doing in a gang, however I'm sure that with a little time everyone will figure out how to best 'use' the system to get the maximum benefit from it
Quote:
How exactly is that supposed to work when you have restricted leaderships usefullness to large scale fleet battles and only the commanders of those battles? because let me tell you I really want some noob thats just starting to train the skill to be the only person in my fleet that gives gang bonuses.
well... if some noob is all you have with gang bonuses then I really don't see how you can complain about how bonuses are applied in the new gang setup, you won't exactly be losing much!
If you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:54:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:55:28
swoj you failing to see the point of that post, so i'll restate it
with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position. Therefore people will ahve to train over 2 million skill points into a catagory Before they get ANY use out of them.
And yes i know the comment about how commanders will have to be promoted and moved in to position, but honestly if your a lfeet commander are you going to want to have 2-3 ships setup for gang support that won't be used until/unless you get blown up? no your going to tell them to get into something useful and fight so he doesn't get blown up.
If you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)
and what if you don't want to be the fleet commander, or as i've stated before are in a small non allience corp.
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Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: swoj
stuff
I trained the GANG assist modules to Assit my gang. Im no uber pvper and no fleet leader. But i am a team player and i do want to contribute other than just being a dictor/tackler. Hence Gang assistance modules were the route i took.
Had i known CCP were gonna change the goal posts as much id have invested my 6 months and 5.7 mil sps in BS 5 and capitals instead.
On the plus side i see Command ships being cheaper now 
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: swoj
got to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!
did you spend any points in leadership?
if not better do, because maybe some of the old ga people may stop flying gangassist and refrain from training even more time sink skills for being even less effective than before and prefer to start to do pew pew too as all the others do ^^
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cadman Weyland
Originally by: swoj
stuff
On the plus side i see Command ships being cheaper now
oooo Good point, that is one thing i hadn't thought of, then again being minmitar Claymores were already cheaper than either of the two HACs and the Slipnier almost so only 20-30 mil more than a muninn
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2006 16:05:46
ôgot to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!ö
The skills and modules them self have always been about gang assist and helping the gang not leading. I like the changeÆs in that command ships are now better at commanding but I donÆt like the way gang assist no long assist gangs unless your leading. Leadership is not all about being a leader. If you look at the CEO of real life company its not just the leader who has Leadership skills.
Regular used skills that are 3 years old shouldnÆt suddenly get changed in the way they work. What about all the groups who have each train up one of the leadership skills. So when they fly in a gang they have all the bonusÆs. Now they get 1 bonus and everyone else has wasted skill points. There are lots of examples where people have spent time training skills and can no longer use those skills. ThatÆs unfair. Someone should not after years of skills working find out that millions of skillpoints are now useless.
ôIf you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)ö
What if your a small gang mixed of amour and shield tankers. The shield tankers took shield gang skills and the amour tankers took amour gang skills. Now both skills activate with this change either the amour or shield tankers have to go without the bonusÆs and someone has a bunch of wasted skillpoints.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Redginald
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:04:00 -
[26]
I too was thinking about training for Command modules and such but I am glad I didn't get as far as any leadership skills. With 30+mill sp's and specialized in HAC's I thought the Command ships would be a nice advantage to fleets as well as keeping the nice stats of a HAC. I just got as far as training up BC and was about to start the leadership skills, not anymore.
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aleis
Unless your in a "Fleet" gang bonuses WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
Form a fleet without a Fleetcommander.
Form a fleet without secondary wings.
Get yourself 40 people into your wing.
Any player who has the ability to give gangbonuses should be able to get a 40 playerwing within a few days.
If your corp is really that small like you claim it to be, you should totaly be happy with a few hours of training for a 30-man sized gang.
If you don¦t want the commandship to be endangered, let is sit in a safespot. You do not have to make use of the fleetcommander functions if you do not want to. Stick to the old playing style.
It is ridiculous from the start that a ship located 1200 AU away is able to "coordinate" gangefficiency(give bonuses). You should be thankfull that this is still possible. There MUST be a drawback for not having the gangassisting ship in the battlefield, so just keep to the old system and don¦t make use of the new gangfunctions if you do not want to.
There is no point in flaming a change if the initial gameaspect/phylosophy was wrong from the start. If you have adapted to a system that was wrong from the initial concept, it¦s your fault.
It was totaly foreseeable that it would get changed one day when the time is right.
Imho they should change fleetcommandships to only give bonuses if present in the middle of the battlefield. No more free advantages over the enemy without any risk, just because you have one single guy with some SP in the background waiting 1200AU away. But I guess that is a dream that CCP will never fullfill me = P
Either take your fleetcommandships to the field of battle, live without the new FC features or take the FC features without him himself giving the bonuses. No reason to give up the old system if you don¦t want to.
kind regards, Skeltek
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:29:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 10/11/2006 16:34:15
Originally by: Pottsey
What if your a small gang mixed of amour and shield tankers. The shield tankers took shield gang skills and the amour tankers took amour gang skills. Now both skills activate with this change either the amour or shield tankers have to go without the bonusÆs and someone has a bunch of wasted skillpoints.
Ummm... no.
What you do in that case is have (for example) the armor tank booster as squad leader and shield booster as the wing commander. Voila. Everyone gets armor + shield bonuses, just like before.
(note: currently the commanders don't boost each other, but TomB has confirmed this is a bug and due to current technical issues)
Of course, this applies if you have a max of 10 people in squad. If you have more, you need more (sub) commanders with the relevant skills. In the case you're describing, very little if anything is changing, you just have to "manually" have the person with the best bonuses act in a leadership slot, instead of the game automatically using the highest bonuses. The skill training is a non-issue for small gangs, since you already have Leadership V already if you're into gang stuff, and Wing Commander is fast for the first three levels or so (and you only need one person as the wing commander, the others can be squad leaders as-is with their Leadership V).
The new stuff only gets expensive skillwise if you want to lead larger fleets. For small gangs, all that is required is some rethink and organization, very little is actually changing. In return, you're getting some nice new tools for the commanders (on all 3 levels).
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2006 16:05:46
ôgot to admit, it's quite funny having people complaining that they didn't put millions of SP into leadership so they could be a leader!ö
The skills and modules them self have always been about gang assist and helping the gang not leading. I like the changeÆs in that command ships are now better at commanding but I donÆt like the way gang assist no long assist gangs unless your leading. Leadership is not all about being a leader. If you look at the CEO of real life company its not just the leader who has Leadership skills.
Regular used skills that are 3 years old shouldnÆt suddenly get changed in the way they work. What about all the groups who have each train up one of the leadership skills. So when they fly in a gang they have all the bonusÆs. Now they get 1 bonus and everyone else has wasted skill points. There are lots of examples where people have spent time training skills and can no longer use those skills. ThatÆs unfair. Someone should not after years of skills working find out that millions of skillpoints are now useless.
ôIf you have the leadership skills already, then take the lead :)ö
What if your a small gang mixed of amour and shield tankers. The shield tankers took shield gang skills and the amour tankers took amour gang skills. Now both skills activate with this change either the amour or shield tankers have to go without the bonusÆs and someone has a bunch of wasted skillpoints.
Pottsey, I rarely disagree with you... however I don't think you've thought this one through.
In your example, I would simply assign the person with the best shield gang skills as commander of a squadron of shield tanking vessels, the person with the best armor tank gang skills commander of a squadron of armor tankers. (Remember, a squadron need only have one other member in it if necessary).
And then if there is someone with appropriate helpful skills that would benefit the entire gang, make them Commander of a Wing that includes both of the Squadrons. So on and so forth as the groups get larger and larger.
People complaining that their skills will go to waste because they are not in an alliance need to think about this as well. A Wing need have no more than 5 people in it... and if I've looked at it properly a fleet need really have no more than 11 people in it.
I do see people establishing their own chain of command structure that they habitually fall into to maximize the benefits to the group, large fleets will require some thought. But I really don't see any training done as a waste.
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aleis
with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position.
If there are any people with better gangassist skills than you have, you were even more useless from the start in the old system? ^^
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:36:00 -
[31]
oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g>
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:38:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Skeltek
Originally by: Aleis
with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position.
If there are any people with better gangassist skills than you have, you were even more useless from the start in the old system? ^^
Yeah. You could just as well argue that in the old system a huge amount of training was wasted, since only the highest bonuses were being used.
All that is really changing here (for smaller gangs) is that you have to manually pick the leaders so you get the best bonuses. It's not rocket science, guys.
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:39:00 -
[33]
talking about higher skills:
when do you actually see eg 2 claymore with skirmish mods in one gang?
i rarely see any command ships at all in gangs, and don¦t tell me about the hac version with, if you are lucky, one module on it...
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:39:00 -
[34]
so your saying that if i'm in a small corp that i should train so i can command 30+ people? how exactly is that supposed to help..?
maybe it won't be so bad in a 100+ man fleet well congradulations i hope you and all the blob wars enjoy it.
And no reason to give up teh old system if you don't want to?
Umm the problem is i'm being forced to
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:42:00 -
[35]
In case someone is still confused about the new system, here's a copy of a post I made in the kali testing section, it may help. Or not.
----
As far as I understand it:
- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1)
- Wing Commander gives you +1 squad per level (rank 8)
- Fleet Commander gives you +1 wing per level (rank 12)
The skill Squadron Command has been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist or some such, it works as before (boosts gang mods and is a req for command ships). The naming is confusing, Leadership should really be called Squadron Command, but TomB said that they can't currently rename it due to resource problems (the name "Leadership" is used in lots of places, including voice recordings). Oh well.
So Leadership V gives you max 10 people (and is trivial to train for).
Wing Commander V gives you max 5 x 10 + 1 = 51 people (and is a ***** to train to V, but not too bad to lvl4 which gives you 41 max)
Fleet Command V gives you max 5 x 51 + 1 = 256 people (and is a horror to train fully). Of course, once you have Wing Commander V the first 3 levels of Fleet Command are still quick, which gives you 154 people in your fleet. After that it gets slower.
|
Blind Man
Caldari
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:43:00 -
[36]
yay for new gangs! new features that screw over other stuff ftwÖ
It's great flying Amarr, ain't it? |
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:45:00 -
[37]
wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi)
|
Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Skeltek
Originally by: Aleis
with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position.
If there are any people with better gangassist skills than you have, you were even more useless from the start in the old system? ^^
Yeah. You could just as well argue that in the old system a huge amount of training was wasted, since only the highest bonuses were being used.
you got it ;)
|
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 10/11/2006 16:53:13
Originally by: Aleis
so your saying that if i'm in a small corp that i should train so i can command 30+ people? how exactly is that supposed to help..?
maybe it won't be so bad in a 100+ man fleet well congradulations i hope you and all the blob wars enjoy it.
And no reason to give up teh old system if you don't want to?
Umm the problem is i'm being forced to
Well, first off, no you're not forced to use the new system. Old-style gangs still work, you just won't get any gang bonuses from them anymore.
If you do want the gang bonuses (and the new tools and toys), you need some training. But it's really not that bad for small groups.
With Wing Commander 3 you can run a 30-person gang, that needs Leadership V (which you probably already have anyway), and then a rank 8 skill to level 3. So that's, what, maybe one day plus of training on top of that Leadership V? Non-issue.
For 30-40 people you need Wing Commander 4, which is starting to be a bit slower, a rank 8 skill from 3 -> 4 is... umm... 5-6 days? Still, quite doable without killing your skill budget.
Over 40 people gets expensive, skillwise. If you want the bigger gangs/fleets, you need to train.
The biggest hurdle is of course that WC V which gives you 50 people. After that the first levels of Fleet Command are again fast, and boost you near-instantly to 150 people which is already big-fleet territory.
...and again, you can form the full 256-person fleet without any skills at all. You just won't get gang bonuses from people who are not squad/wing/fleet commanders.
|
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: grizouh
wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi)
Yeah, WC V is the biggest roadblock here. Maybe the rank of that one should be reduced a bit.
|
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:53:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: grizouh
wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi)
Yeah, WC V is the biggest roadblock here. Maybe the rank of that one should be reduced a bit.
no, the biggest will be fleetcommand 5 as we actually do have some bigger gangs from time to time...
so if i don¦t want to loose any of my functionality i do have to train fleetcommand 5!
get me now?
|
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: grizouh
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: grizouh
wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi)
Yeah, WC V is the biggest roadblock here. Maybe the rank of that one should be reduced a bit.
no, the biggest will be fleetcommand 5 as we actually do have some bigger gangs from time to time...
so if i don¦t want to loose any of my functionality i do have to train fleetcommand 5!
get me now?
Yes, people who want to lead huge fleets will have to do a ****load of training if they want to give bonuses to the whole fleet. I think that's fine, I think the current system of one safespotted semi-afk command ship boosting 300+ people is stupid.
So yes, large-fleet commanders get nerfed (gang-bonus-wise) unless they want to study some pretty long skills. And I have no problem with that... and as far as I understand CCP doesn't like huge blobs, and wants to encourage having multiple smaller fleets instead of one monster blob.
The vast majority of gangs/fleets, however, are in the 10-60 ballpark in my experience. Having a huge hurdle placed at 50 is a bit weird imho.
|
Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: grizouh
oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g>
yes, I was a bit inactive lately, but it doesn¦t forcably change the high quality of my posts ^^
|
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:02:00 -
[44]
One point to remember: everyone is touched by this, you're not the only one who has to rethink and possibly skill up. The people who train the new gang skills (and manage to organize their corp/alliance to support that structure) will have an edge in combat. In the beginning, everyone at the same starting line compared to enemies of the same size.
So yeah, it's a ***** to train up Fleet Command V. But it will be just as much of a ***** for your enemies -- especially if their current fleet command is of the Charisma 3 variety 
|
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:02:00 -
[45]
Erm, you do realise that you can form a fleet with two people? Right?
Then both those people will get all the bonusses?
That you must already have the required skill to do so to get the other skills?
In fact if you have gang sizes <11 people and one person with leadership you have lost nothing.
It's people who have trained up complimentary leadership skills to work together who are going to struggle - and even then its not too bad if there are only two of them as you can create a wing commander (gives bonus to everyone including self) and gang commander (gives bonus to everyone except wing commander) with 9 people getting all the bonusses from both.
Don't get me wrong, I can see why people are upset, just pointing out that it may not be as bad as you think.
Zarch AlDain
|
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:09:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
So yes, large-fleet commanders get nerfed (gang-bonus-wise) unless they want to study some pretty long skills. And I have no problem with that... and as far as I understand CCP doesn't like huge blobs, and wants to encourage having multiple smaller fleets instead of one monster blob.
orly?
did we already celebrate 30.000 customers parallel online?
and blobs causing lag: do you really think all this new shiny, fluffy stuff like broadcasting messages, targeting with funky icons in space etc will not cause any more lag?
if you defend your space you will blob, you have to blob. i don¦t like it neither but thats they way it goes. and don¦t tell me ccp does not want you to claim space...
these changes would force me to spend nearly another 3 months to be as effective as before for skills which will not do any benefits for myself again (as all other leadership skills) if i am doing things on my own without any gang.
|
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Skeltek
Originally by: grizouh
oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g>
yes, I was a bit inactive lately, but it doesn¦t forcably change the high quality of my posts ^^
action speaks louder than words ;o)
so you will train these skills, yes? till the bitter end, yes?
and as icing on the cake i will see you again in your vulture, regulary, yes?
|
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: grizouh
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
So yes, large-fleet commanders get nerfed (gang-bonus-wise) unless they want to study some pretty long skills. And I have no problem with that... and as far as I understand CCP doesn't like huge blobs, and wants to encourage having multiple smaller fleets instead of one monster blob.
orly?
did we already celebrate 30.000 customers parallel online?
and blobs causing lag: do you really think all this new shiny, fluffy stuff like broadcasting messages, targeting with funky icons in space etc will not cause any more lag?
if you defend your space you will blob, you have to blob. i don¦t like it neither but thats they way it goes. and don¦t tell me ccp does not want you to claim space...
these changes would force me to spend nearly another 3 months to be as effective as before for skills which will not do any benefits for myself again (as all other leadership skills) if i am doing things on my own without any gang.
I have no idea of what CCP's actual goals are, just saying that *my impression* is that they want to encourage multiple smaller (coordinating) fleets instead of huge blobs. What the actualy goals and aims are is anyone's guess.
And as noted, yes you need to do serious training if you want to give your gang bonuses to 255 people in the fleet you lead (like now). As also noted, your enemies are in the same boat.
So it's up to you. It's not like you get nerfed and your enemies don't (unless you magically need 250-person fleets against much smaller fleets, in which case you may have some other problems to deal with).
|
Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:20:00 -
[49]
Originally by: grizouh
these changes would force me to spend nearly another 3 months to be as effective as before for skills which will not do any benefits for myself again (as all other leadership skills) if i am doing things on my own without any gang.
hmm, wouldn¦t one month of skilltraining suffice for being a top-wingleader?
As you stated before, wingcommand lvl5 will need you "just" a month.
I think Fleetcommander lvl3 will suffice for most Commandship pilots; I bet they will 99% of the time never be fleetcommander themselves.
Personaly I believe wingcommand lvl4 would suffice for the wingcommanders(5 days of training), since gangs above 165 members are not very often to be seen.
Afaik EW ships and stuff need different bonuses to be provided anyway.
No offence, but I am very eager for a opinionexchange/discussion today.
Skeltek
ps: The Goons will probably profit the most from this change, even though they will not yet realize why. The limitation of ultrahighskilled gangassist to only a part of the force, will hit the larger alliances with bestskilled CmdShpPilots the most.
|
Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:21:00 -
[50]
Originally by: grizouh
Originally by: Skeltek
Originally by: grizouh
oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g>
yes, I was a bit inactive lately, but it doesn¦t forcably change the high quality of my posts ^^
action speaks louder than words ;o)
so you will train these skills, yes? till the bitter end, yes?
and as icing on the cake i will see you again in your vulture, regulary, yes?
yes my sweet little darling, I was planing to get all the way up to Fleetcommand lvl5 = )
|
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:24:00 -
[51]
ofc the beloved enemy has to train them, too.
but thats not the point, as they also would not have to train like i wouldn¦t if ccp could find another solution.
the goal of ccp introducing this system is to reduce lag due to calculations who has the highest skill! this was no joke from shamis, go read it in the general forum in the dev blog, it is stated there.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:26:00 -
[52]
ôWhat you do in that case is have (for example) the armor tank booster as squad leader and shield booster as the wing commander. Voila. Everyone gets armor + shield bonuses, just like before.
(note: currently the commanders don't boost each other, but TomB has confirmed this is a bug and due to current technical issues)ö
Thanks for the info. In that case I take back what I said and once the bugs are fixed I have few problems with the new changeÆs.
ôPottsey, I rarely disagree with you... however I don't think you've thought this one through.ö
Looks like I was wrong. As I only do small gangs very little is going change for me it seems.
ôi rarely see any command ships at all in gangs, and don¦t tell me about the hac version with, if you are lucky, one module on it...ö
Try living in a corp that has a Command ship BPO.
ô- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1)ö
Have we lost the old leadership bonus then or does something else replace it? Or is the +2 on top of the old bonus?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Skeltek
No offence, but I am very eager for a opinionexchange/discussion today.
Skeltek
later hase,
still in the office and will be out here in half an hour.
see you tonight with your vulture 
|
xenodia
Gallente
RONA Corporation
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:34:00 -
[54]
So basically... you are mad because you invested 8 million skillpoints in leadership skills, but you didnt really want to lead ?
Personally, I think its better to only have the bonuses come from the actual leaders. I mean the leadership skills are supposed to be there to simulate the benefits a good leader can have on a fighting forces effectiveness. I generally dont like RL comparisons to eve, but if im a RL army major, commanding a tank battalion, it doesnt matter if the sergeant driving one of the tanks in my 3rd company is a natural born leader or not. His leadership skills arent going to do crap for the rest of the tanks in the battalion.
This signature space for rent |
Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:45:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 17:47:43
if the real probelm was that there was massive server load figureing out who had teh best bonuses then add in a role of "Support" and give a number of slots for that, Son't force us into a leadership position.
No you don't need to use the new commander tools to be teh leader of a fleet, then again you don't have to be in a corperation to work to gether but i don't see many people taking that option either.
You trained leadership skill points and don't want to lead
Exactly
And like you siad please don't bring in real life relationships into the game they never work. Just because they are called leadership doesn't mean they have any relation to actualy leading....or at least until this massive change came in.
I'm a support charater. I trained Support skills, regaurdless of what they are called. Maybe they should have their name changed to Support, Oh wait that was mentioned and the only reason they aren't changing the name of the Leadership skill is because it has been to integrated into other game elements as to make it unfeasable to edit all refrences to it.
|
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:48:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Pottsey
ô- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1)ö
Have we lost the old leadership bonus then or does something else replace it? Or is the +2 on top of the old bonus?
As far as I understand it, Leadership now only gives the gang size functionality, there is (or will be?) a new skill that gives the old Leadership bonus for those that want it.
The naming is a bit confusing, since "Leadership" should really be called "Squadron Command", but TomB said that the word Leadership was currently embedded in so many places (including voice recordings) that they didn't have the resources to change the skill name right now. They did change the current Squadron Command skill name into something more Kali-suitable (Gang Module Specialist or some such).
|
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:58:00 -
[57]
Edited by: grizouh on 10/11/2006 18:07:36
Originally by: xenodia
So basically... you are mad because you invested 8 million skillpoints in leadership skills, but you didnt really want to lead ?
Personally, I think its better to only have the bonuses come from the actual leaders. I mean the leadership skills are supposed to be there to simulate the benefits a good leader can have on a fighting forces effectiveness. I generally dont like RL comparisons to eve, but if im a RL army major, commanding a tank battalion, it doesnt matter if the sergeant driving one of the tanks in my 3rd company is a natural born leader or not. His leadership skills arent going to do crap for the rest of the tanks in the battalion.
this argumentation is just pointless.
go back to page one and start reading again, if you don¦t like it read aleis answer below yours: in the first line our skills support the gang!
second point, just for you:
normally the fc¦s in large scale engagements fly covert ops, well at least ours do. so that they will not be blown away from the very beginning to do their target calling etc.
unfortunately i can not fit command modules on a covert ops.
actually i do have a cloaking device on my claymore, but i can not use my modules while being cloaked.
with the new system the command ships will be even more primary as before so please tell me with your wise rl experience how this will work together even if i stay at the frontline, boost my gangmates and do the fc job?
and if we are honest you will know it will not work.
and if the fc wanna use all the new tools from the new gangsystem he has to be in the fleetcommander position which will narrow the commandships down to wingcommanders. and there is the next nerf as we will only be able to boost 50 people in one wing.
for what training time alltogether starting with having presence at lvl4? 
|
Decairn
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 18:06:00 -
[58]
Leadership skills are support functions, they're nothing about leading, the base skill tree is badly named. Yes people have trained this for the benefit of their friends and team mates and do not want to lead.
The new structure of fleets nerfs gang bonuses somewhat. It's not really a bad change though as far as structure goes, there's some thought required where to put the bonus givers for maximum benefits, and we need more people with these skills for the same effect. All in all, I don't see too much wrong with that.
However, pushing the bonsues givers into the command positions is a bad way to implement. Create a secondary role in the command strcture at the lead level, 'gang bonus comander' for lack of a better term; this allows leaders to lead and have all those tools at their disposal and still allows the performance stuff to be fixed. The command ship pilots simply register themselves as that role in the same way as the squad/wing/fleet commander does.
I'd love to salvage something from this new strcutre without pushing unwilling people into the lead positions.
--Decairn
|
Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 18:22:00 -
[59]
Speaking of carriers... Everyone with 5mil+ in leadership (/me raises hand) should probably start thinking about carriers - with carrier skill at 4 you get 4 gang mods, and post Kali you have a very large hitpoint buffer...
I have been unfortuantly i hate battleships so I'd have to start from scratch to train that up, yes indeed i've been playing since beta and don't fly anyhting larger than a BC.
But i'm a support character and the carriers are the ultimate support ships so i have been thinking on it....jus tthat 90 day+ training to get there thats the bugger of all,
|
Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 20:36:00 -
[60]
You only give your gang bonuses to people under your command. Except Wing and Fleet commanders which should give their bonuses to each other, this bit is bugged.
What am I reading wrong from all the information thats been released? Nothing has alluded to any other option other than you can only boost people under your command.
|
ElCoCo
KIA Corp
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:55:00 -
[61]
Don't you see?
Everything added to the game the last 1 1/2 year or so is just pointing to get more accounts per person. 
|
SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:04:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Parallax Error
You only give your gang bonuses to people under your command. Except Wing and Fleet commanders which should give their bonuses to each other, this bit is bugged.
What am I reading wrong from all the information thats been released? Nothing has alluded to any other option other than you can only boost people under your command.
You can only give bonuses to people under your command if the chain is intact
fleet commander <> wing commander <> squad commander <> squad member.
A squad commander has to be present in the SAME system /undocked as the wing commander. For the wing commander to commute his bonus to the squad.
For the fleet commander to give his bonus to the squad member, the fleet,wing and squad commander ALL have to be undocked in the same system.
Its adding simple bureaucracy.
----------------------------------------
Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Mudkest
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:07:00 -
[63]
"A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself."
you can receive bonus from one of those, or from all 3 of those at same time?
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:23:00 -
[64]
Edited by: SengH on 10/11/2006 22:23:04
you can only receive bonus from all 3 if they are all undocked and in the same system (previous gang mod rules still apply(ie. highest module works). Furthermore if the wing commander docks. You lose both the fleet and wing commander bonuses. Or if your squad commander docks/jumps out of system, you lose all 3 bonuses.
----------------------------------------
Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Elderberry Whine
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:20:00 -
[65]
Hey, you got your WCS nerf, what's the problem????
Originally by: Aleis
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:45:19
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 14:15:08
This will be my first post since the first time i played in the Beta where i have specificly stated CCP made a serius mistake in changes to the game. I do not write this happily
So I just finished reading the new dev blog about the new gang hirearchy, And remainded speechless for about 5 sec. before I realized how much that swift kick to the nuts really hurt.
At first it sounds really cool having the gang split up into squads and being able to issue orders. But then theres those little mentions about how gang bonuses are going to work.
Unless your in a "Fleet" gang bonuses WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
Well that works out well for small corps and the rest of the world not being an allience.
And worse even if you are in a fleet only the bonuses of commanders and squad leaders Will be used at all!
then there was this really laughable line at the very end saying this new thing will make people more interested in specializing for leadership bonuses!!
How exactly is that supposed to work when you have restricted leaderships usefullness to large scale fleet battles and only the commanders of those battles? because let me tell you I really want some noob thats just starting to train the skill to be the only person in my fleet that gives gang bonuses.
and not to forget the fact that the way fleet battles are the Comander and gang modules are mutualy exclusive. Commanders need to be on the battlefield and calling targets while gang support needs to be off the battlefield, not getting blown up in 3 seconds.
I have never once since I started playing in the beta made a post in which i said that due to changes in the game My previusly trained skill points are now worthless. but as it looks now i have spent 8 million skill points on leadership so I can spec in gang bonuses, And since i'm not one of an alliences fleet commanders They really will be useless. because unlike other changes where the skill points just don't make you uber powerful. Now they reallly won't be used.
And even worse you tell us now that Kali has been "Frozen" when it's too late to change it.
Explain to me now why this will make a new player want to train for leadership skills?
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Mudkest
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 00:26:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Elderberry Whine
Hey, you got your WCS nerf, what's the problem????
Care to explain what wcs nerf and leadership overhaull have to do with each other?
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 00:42:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Mudkest
Care to explain what wcs nerf and leadership overhaull have to do with each other?
...
They both share the letter 'e'?
...
Nah, I got nothing.
|
Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 02:10:00 -
[68]
Originally by: SengH
Originally by: Parallax Error
You only give your gang bonuses to people under your command. Except Wing and Fleet commanders which should give their bonuses to each other, this bit is bugged.
What am I reading wrong from all the information thats been released? Nothing has alluded to any other option other than you can only boost people under your command.
You can only give bonuses to people under your command if the chain is intact
fleet commander <> wing commander <> squad commander <> squad member.
A squad commander has to be present in the SAME system /undocked as the wing commander. For the wing commander to commute his bonus to the squad.
For the fleet commander to give his bonus to the squad member, the fleet,wing and squad commander ALL have to be undocked in the same system.
Its adding simple bureaucracy.
Yeah, so it's as I thought. You pretty much have to be wing command or fleet command for your several million skill point investment to be worthwhile?
Definitely not impressed with this one, I think I shall just have to abuse Damps now.
|
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 02:15:00 -
[69]
Using the leader's bonuses ONLY makes complete sense.
If my character is 'leading' a group of ships, it would by my leadership abilities (or lack thereof with my 50k sps in leadership) that help me lead you to make better use of your ship.
Right now it's just a pile of "ok lets use the best skills from both the leader and his followers, to help lead the gang better".
It makes no sense TBH. These changes will atleast make those high Charisma, leadership-trained chars, all 7 or 8 of them, very valuable.
Besides, nothing stops you from having a random corp/alliance member with uber leadership skills from making the gang, while your real FC gives orders over TS/Vent.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 02:25:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Using the leader's bonuses ONLY makes complete sense.
If my character is 'leading' a group of ships, it would by my leadership abilities (or lack thereof with my 50k sps in leadership) that help me lead you to make better use of your ship.
Right now it's just a pile of "ok lets use the best skills from both the leader and his followers, to help lead the gang better".
It makes no sense TBH. These changes will atleast make those high Charisma, leadership-trained chars, all 7 or 8 of them, very valuable.
Besides, nothing stops you from having a random corp/alliance member with uber leadership skills from making the gang, while your real FC gives orders over TS/Vent.
Apart from the fact that gang assist mods are logistics in all but the base skill tree name.
Your forcing people to take command roles and thus completely shifting the goalposts after hefty training periods.
Your making people use a whole line of ships that aren't suited to being in large scale ops at the front line.
If you have the real leader on vent etc you lose quite a lot of the quick response and functionality added for leaders with this new system. Gang warps for a starter.
You have to have an uninterrupted chain of command. Now instead of having to have one person in system you can need up to 3 to get a bonus.
If this system stays, formations better be pretty bloody good.
The only analogy I can think of to fully describe how this is affecting gang assist trained players would be this: Imagine CCP decided that drones, being a Gallente speciality could only be used on Gallente ships. Sure you could still use them, but what if you don't want to use Gallente ships? Same principle at work here, only it's a fairly rare and highly specialised area so not that many people are affected by it.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 04:09:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: grizouh
talking about higher skills:
when do you actually see eg 2 claymore with skirmish mods in one gang?
i rarely see any command ships at all in gangs, and don¦t tell me about the hac version with, if you are lucky, one module on it...
In the current system you don't usually see the fleet command ships - they're parked alongside the carriers in a POS.
Speaking of carriers... Everyone with 5mil+ in leadership (/me raises hand) should probably start thinking about carriers - with carrier skill at 4 you get 4 gang mods, and post Kali you have a very large hitpoint buffer...
Unless it has been changed for kali, carriers do not get +1 gang mod per level, only the motherships (larger ships that share the carrier skill and cost 20x as much) get that.
.
-----
It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Lenaria
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 07:38:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Lenaria on 11/11/2006 07:39:58
Its incredibly lame what "gang assist modules" require FC role to be applied. They have nothing to do with officially leading gangs, and there was never any sign of it. Its like allowing to remote armour repairing or remote sensor boosting only for FC...
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 08:23:00 -
[73]
So far seems that passive alt characters will suffer most from this change.
My alt will just about finish his long trek to Vulture, mindlink, and almost maxed leadership skills about the time Kali hits.
Initially leadership skills seemed perfect for a secondary character that cannot be very active in the actual combat (where most focus must be on the primary char).
Now it seems that in big gangs leading positions offer some extra functions/commands, so can't really waste such spot on passive char.
So, rather worried about such unexpected change in mechanism, but not going to yell 'i quit'..
-Lasse
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Tetovo
Caldari
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 08:39:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Tetovo on 11/11/2006 08:40:57
Guys you can make a squad and still give people bonuses. The only req to make a squad is the leadership skill which I'm sure the people with millions of sp in leadership that just got gimped don't have.
Read:
a Squadron Commander can invite anyone to his Squadron, but the Fleet Commander can also invite to that Squadron as itÆs a part of the fleet group.
The basic Leadership skill will be used for Squadron Commanders to run a Squadron. The skill allows you to have an active Squadron of up to maximum of 10 members (the commander is included).
This is what confuses people:
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics.
Gang refers to the old gang system, a fleet refers to the new system. No it doesn't need a fleet commander to give bonuses. Look at the screenshot in the devblog. Notice it still says wing and fleet, thus this gang has been made into a fleet, even though the fleet only consists of dupperTum and his two friends in their one squad. All signs point to no need for Wing/Fleet comms to receive bonuses.
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Binarii
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Posted - 2006.11.11 08:42:00 -
[75]
From reading the blog and looking at the screenshots it seems to me that:
- A flat out gang can be converted to a fleet no matter how many members it has.
- If I have trained leadership V, which is a prerequisite to running command modules, I can command a squadron of 10 to which my bonuses will apply.
- If I want my bonuses to work for a bigger fleet I have to train more leadership skills.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's like this I find the changes rather interesting with all the options the command structure opens up for more casual players.
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Mudkest
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 10:14:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tetovo
Edited by: Tetovo on 11/11/2006 08:40:57
Guys you can make a squad and still give people bonuses. The only req to make a squad is the leadership skill which I'm sure the people with millions of sp in leadership that just got gimped don't have.
Read:
a Squadron Commander can invite anyone to his Squadron, but the Fleet Commander can also invite to that Squadron as itÆs a part of the fleet group.
The basic Leadership skill will be used for Squadron Commanders to run a Squadron. The skill allows you to have an active Squadron of up to maximum of 10 members (the commander is included).
This is what confuses people:
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics.
Gang refers to the old gang system, a fleet refers to the new system. No it doesn't need a fleet commander to give bonuses. Look at the screenshot in the devblog. Notice it still says wing and fleet, thus this gang has been made into a fleet, even though the fleet only consists of dupperTum and his two friends in their one squad. All signs point to no need for Wing/Fleet comms to receive bonuses.
thanks for clearing that up, that's what I was wonderign about, time to finish charisma learning skill training and then get leadership skills, with new BC might be interesting for small "fleets" :)
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
Ketrin
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 11:54:00 -
[77]
Quote:
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
6mil here, I'm happy \o/
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 12:50:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 11/11/2006 12:50:55
Originally by: Pottsey
Now that everyone understands all the changeÆs are there any 5+ mill Leadership pilots happy with this change?
I am happy with the change along with the planned fixes. I don't like the roll back in abilities though. I think this is the first time CCP has rolled back abilities in the game with a patch.
You do NOT take something away to give it back with a skill. You just don't do that. Its not right. You at least have to grandfather existing players in.
I guess CCP just made a costly mistake thats hurting bandwidth too much.
Can you have 5+ mil in Leadership? I only hvae 1m but I got no plans to train anything other that the skills that work with the Claymore. I doubt I can hit 5m doing that.
____
"If your not dyin' your not tryin'."
"Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 16:46:00 -
[79]
yes yes you can form a fleet to use teh gang mods, and yes i know you could be squad leader or bigger but your still be FORCED into a Command position. I'm not a commander i'm Logistics.
and theres this other misconseption
Anyone traning for gang mods is an afk alt. And thus a lot of people are saying so what. But what about those people that are ACTIVE gang support players. This is what I do in the game and i have no alt.
And yes if your a commander of the fleet you do need to command specialy if they begin implimenting formations, now that they have added in new features it's just going to be more important that the right person be at teh top or near the top.
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Santiac
Under Heavy Fire
Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 17:27:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Santiac on 11/11/2006 17:33:33
(i've been inactive for a while, so i'm not fully up to date with the upcoming changes)
So, if i get this right, things will be working as follows:
Position: Fleet Commander - Wing Commander - Squadron Commander
Bonus to: All under - All under - All under
Furthermore bonuses fluctuate between all Commanders (once fixed)
Given that there is no broken links in the chain.
Therefore alot of people will have trained for Gang Assist modules for no reason, seeing as they, aswell as myself, have no interest in leading.
While i do see the validity in the argument of only people with adequate skillpoints will get to make any use of their skills, the same was(is) true prior to the upcoming changes.
An interesting idea might be to let the effects linger after the destruction of the Commander one step above the chain.
Think of it as morale, in a slightly twisted version..
If the Fleet Commander is killed, his bonuses will linger on for X amount of time.
If a Wing Commander is subsequently also killed, his bonuses will linger - but the FC's will dissipate.
If a Wing Commander is killed, and a FC is still present, WC's will linger, but FC bonuses will be reduced (say, 50%)
If a Squadron Commander is subsequently killed the WC's bonuses will dissipate, and the FC bonuses will furtherly be reduced. Also the SC bonuses will linger
If only the Squadron Commander is present (FC and WC have been forcefully killed) only SC and lingering WC bonuses will apply.
If a Squadron Commander is killed, or otherwise rejects his position, anyone who is able to will be able to claim leadership, at which point his bonuses will substitue those of the former Cmdr., if any.
If a Wing Commander is killed, or otherwise rejects his position, anyone who is able to within the respective Squadrons under that wing will be given the option to claim leadership. At which point his bonuses will subsitute those of the former Cmdr, if it was the Commander of a squadron his position will be freed.
If a Fleet Commander is killed, anyone who is able to will be able to take control. At which point his bonuses will substitue those of the former FC, and if he/she was W/S-C, his/her position will be open.
Furthermore, give the Fleet Commander the ability to assign up to 1 extra Command Ship to any given Squadron, perhaps make this a seperate skill.
Level I: Able to assign 1 extra Commandship to any given wing
Level II: Able to assign 1 extra Commandship to two seperate wings.
Level V: Able to assign up to 5 extra commandships to any (or 1 to 5 seperate) wings.
Possibly let this skill apply for wing commanders assigning 1 extra ship to a squadron under him/her - or make a seperate skill for Wing Commanders and let the Fleet Commander skill effect the bonuses of Commandships under him instead.
(Note: To reduce the need to train up Gang Assist to Lead, make this/these skill(s) a seperate branch of the Leadership tree)
If these ships are present with their respective wing (or a squadron thereof) they will give full bonuses, if they are not present they're bonuses will be reduced. If they are considered retreated, fleed or have commited suicide same conditions will apply as if they were the commmander. Read Below.
Note:
If a Commander flees (docks, jumps) all of his bonuses dissipate.
If a Commander suicides all of his bonuses dissipate and all subsequent commanders' Gang bonuses is reduced (25%, for example)
If a Commander is not present with the Squadrons, the bonuses he grants will be reduced. If the said Cmdr is a Fleet Cmdr. the bonuses will not be reduced. If it is a Wing Cmdr. only his bonuses will be reduced slightly.
I'm aware these "changes" are rather complex, it is only a proposition, and therefore, if anyone feels it would be better in another manifestation, please state your opinion. :)
________________________________________
<insert clever/witty comment here>
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 18:34:00 -
[81]
Months and months ... totally wasted.
This needs to be fixed RIGHT AWAY!
 x 141521321 billion
<3  |
Rehmes
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 23:16:00 -
[82]
Umm sry for being dense but lemme get this straight.
If im in a small corp and make a gang with friends my gang modules wont affect them unless were part of a fleet?
Sry i just dont understand this very well so bear with me.
I just want to know how this change will affect me since i will only be in a small pvp corp with friends and i was pursuing the claymore because i wanted to be a support character while the other guys did the dmg. I was planning on being in the front lines so SS were never an option for me; but will these changes stop me from simply using my gang mods in gangs?
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Santiac
Under Heavy Fire
Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 23:54:00 -
[83]
Any gang will be able to transform into a fleet, disregardless of size. After which point you should be able to choose a commander, who will be able to grant those under his command bonuses from the gang assist skills and modules.
For more information check the Dev Blog :)
________________________________________
<insert clever/witty comment here>
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Deriger
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:27:00 -
[84]
I was training up to eventually get an Eos. Guess that is down the drain.
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Amerame
Section XIII
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:51:00 -
[85]
Command mods were already quite unpractical to use if you were not in a completely static gang, it's going to be so much worse with this system, who will bother ? The nerf is very bad for the fleet command ships, but t1 BC and field command fitting a gang mod will be things of the past.
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Sang Do
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:57:00 -
[86]
read blog, read topic.... cant got main idea (nerf?)
correct me if i`m not right
1. gang modules and skills will work now only on "sight" not on whole solar system?
2. group of 2 ppl ( Battlecruiser with module and 1 more any ship) wont recive bonus?
3. So throw on moon (hehe) alt filled with gang modules online + basic skills while main ship flying in system doing something not an option anymore?
4. gang members should be linked by a same corp and/or alliance?
tnx for attention
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Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 04:23:00 -
[87]
Sang do it's not a nerf in the normal sence where they make the modules effectiness lower, but more a restructuring of teh game mechanics on When you can use them.
So yeah basicly sort of a nerf, since they aren't as versitile as they used to be......i guess
but more along the lines of not happy with change
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SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 05:50:00 -
[88]
I nearly tore my hair out trying to get the stupid gang bonuses to work on test. I forsee alot of fleets just going **** it and just going without the gang bonuses due to the sheer bureaucracy needed to move everyone into the right location just to get them to work. Think 1hr formup times were bad? Well CCP just added another hour to that.
----------------------------------------
Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Linaria
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 05:59:00 -
[89]
With such drastical change in game mechanic i think it would be fair to demand SP refund from CCP. Make it possible to move SP from leadership skills to any other skill for a limited amount of time after Kali goes live.
Making gang assist modules affect the gang only if you have FC position - its like making drone skill affect your drones only if you are flying specialized drone ship like Dominix. Total screw up for anyone who can trained them before.
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Lonli Lonki
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 15:53:00 -
[90]
So most ppl who trained alt's on leadership now can cancel account subscriptions right?
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 16:38:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Sang Do
read blog, read topic.... cant got main idea (nerf?)
correct me if i`m not right
1. gang modules and skills will work now only on "sight" not on whole solar system?
2. group of 2 ppl ( Battlecruiser with module and 1 more any ship) wont recive bonus?
3. So throw on moon (hehe) alt filled with gang modules online + basic skills while main ship flying in system doing something not an option anymore?
4. gang members should be linked by a same corp and/or alliance?
tnx for attention
1. wrong, afaik
2. wrong, afaik
3. wrong, afaik
4. wrong, definitely
|
Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 16:43:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Skeltek on 12/11/2006 16:53:43
Originally by: Lonli Lonki
So most ppl who trained alt's on leadership now can cancel account subscriptions right?
Anybody may cancel his subscription, even without possesing a leadership char, but why should they do that? ^^
But to answer your questions: There is no reason to do that, leadership skills will still be distributed on others, even if not in the same grid afaik.
All you have to do is being an afk wingcommander or squadleader.
It is a rumor spread by some people that gangskills will no longer work from far away. Probably those people are trying to spread dissatisfaction and fear in the playerbase from the coming Kali changes.
A wingcommander giving gangsupport to up to 50 players may idle afk anywhere he wants.
Mixing a thread partially with false informations has always been a method to mobilize the community and make a change look bad in general, even if that part of facts turns out wrong at end, the person having spread them has reached his goal: a negative flair around a change, even though it is not as bad as it was described at first.
It is merely a rumor/fact of speculation that gangassist will not work from safespots any more.
kind regards, Skeltek
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Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.11.12 17:34:00 -
[93]
It's all very well saying just be a Squadron Commander or Wing Commander however.
1) In those positions you can only give the gang assist benefits to people under your command.
2) You don't know whether or not those people will have ot be on the frontline for certain functionality.
3) (Warning pure conjecture ahead here) CCP has stated this is the precursor to formations and more group based tactics, that sounds to me that the intention is every formation leader of whatever size should be on the front lines leading.
Which ever way you slice it up it's a massive shifting of the goal posts for the people that have trained up for warfare links.
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dust monkey
Minmatar
Tender Loving Care
Muffins of Mayhem
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 00:08:00 -
[94]
i am in favour of all the gang changes EXCEPT the restriction of the gang bonus to only 8+ people in the same gang, this wasn't what i trained over 1.5million sp for to be restircted in what my skill points can do i think they should scrap the gang bonus threshold as it doesnt give small roaming gangs much of an advantage.
---
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Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 19:40:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Skeltek
Edited by: Skeltek on 12/11/2006 16:53:43
But to answer your questions: There is no reason to do that, leadership skills will still be distributed on others, even if not in the same grid afaik.
All you have to do is being an afk wingcommander or squadleader.
A wingcommander giving gangsupport to up to 50 players may idle afk anywhere he wants.
kind regards, Skeltek
And i'll say it again yes you can be int he leadership position with out actualy leading but thats not the point.
You could form a corperation with an alt as teh ceo then delete the charatcer but really is that going to help you any?
they are giving the comanders special tools for managing teh gang or sub groups there of and the REal ingame commander is going to need those tools to match teh the enamies coordination, especialy when ccp adds more depth to formations and fleets.
so again that arguement is null and void and doesn't mean squat.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 21:22:00 -
[96]
Coolest is gonna be the uber fleets, with 1 titan and 5 motherships, and and 25 command ships..... all specialised in the correct gang bonuses.... don't think the idea is too have everyone flying in command ships. Especially not as fleet commander. And really if you get a 250 gang going, having the FC in a mothership really shouldn't be that big a deal.
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Decairn
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 22:14:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Decairn on 13/11/2006 22:19:24
To the last point, those in capital ships already have a very full and demanding training plan. Adding in the advanced leadership ones (leadership, a warfare, warefare spec, squad command, wing command, fleet command, cybernetics) is a tad heavy on top.
--Decairn
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SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 22:15:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Gariuys
Coolest is gonna be the uber fleets, with 1 titan and 5 motherships, and and 25 command ships..... all specialised in the correct gang bonuses.... don't think the idea is too have everyone flying in command ships. Especially not as fleet commander. And really if you get a 250 gang going, having the FC in a mothership really shouldn't be that big a deal.
That has to be the most retarded idea in this thread considering that command ships give better gang bonuses than motherships and the fact that 5 command ships would be far less skill intensive. Furthermore taking in mind that only the highest bonus in the chain works, makes this idea even more stupid.
----------------------------------------
Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.14 16:12:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Decairn
Edited by: Decairn on 13/11/2006 22:19:24
To the last point, those in capital ships already have a very full and demanding training plan. Adding in the advanced leadership ones (leadership, a warfare, warefare spec, squad command, wing command, fleet command, cybernetics) is a tad heavy on top.
Another post that interestingly completely ignors the entire thread.
and again what if the titan pilot doesn't want to be the Fleet commander?
|
Karash Amerius
Amarr
O.E.C
|
Posted - 2006.11.14 16:35:00 -
[100]
I am leadership spec'ed and am happy with the changes. So many changes favor the big blob fleets of huge alliances, this really helps us skirmishers and small scale pvp'ers.
Merc Blog |
Turtla
|
Posted - 2006.11.14 16:51:00 -
[101]
Im a carrier pilot with high lvl of leadership skills. I like being the support ship with gang modules and remote repping at a safe. It's just me playing style, i don't like being in the front line. And now i need to be in a FC status to use the gange bonus, that's something i don't like
Charisma is the greatist attribute so lets nerf the great leadership skills that use charisma
|
Radioactive Babe
|
Posted - 2006.11.14 18:16:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Turtla
...Charisma is the greatist attribute so lets nerf the great leadership skills that use charisma
It is? granted the leadership skills help a lot of those Gallente players who created high cha characters and never had anything useful to use them on ....but the greatest?
I have an alt that is currently training armour spec to 5 ... maybe train skirmish and siege spec to 4 for small wings and wing command to 3 .... it has to be said though that the char will have to be tanked like crazy as command ships will be primary due to them giving bonuses (not too hard to get very high resists in a da mnation with just t2 mods) |
Decairn
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.14 21:58:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Decairn on 14/11/2006 22:00:09
Originally by: Aleis
Originally by: Decairn
Edited by: Decairn on 13/11/2006 22:19:24
To the last point, those in capital ships already have a very full and demanding training plan. Adding in the advanced leadership ones (leadership, a warfare, warefare spec, squad command, wing command, fleet command, cybernetics) is a tad heavy on top.
Another post that interestingly completely ignors the entire thread.
and again what if the titan pilot doesn't want to be the Fleet commander?
Oh I agree with you Aleis if that's what you want to hear. I am one of those hit by this change and am not so happy about it. Didn't see any need to mention it previously.
My posts point was to show that the idea of capital pilots being in command with this structure is somewhat silly because they're already too busy with other skill trees as or more demanding.
This and the thread in the Kali testing forum have had no responses from devs which is disappointing. Would like to hear som feedback on our feedback before its jammed in with Kali.
--Decairn
|
Aleis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 04:21:00 -
[104]
ahh i see what your getting at, sorry then and....yeah good point......and really it is now that i think about it or rather now that i'm starting to train up for carriers more or less from scratch (I didn't train up for big ships) I'm looking at 3 months of training just to get into a carrier and i've been on for a long time,
I can't imagine what it would be like for a new player to not only try and get into capital ships but also be able to really handle gang assist modles, 6 months? of dedicated training almost i'm thinking, and thats not to be really good simply adiquate? longer once they add in the new required skills for controlling large gangs. 7 months of dedicated traning just ot be a fleet commander?....ouch specilization is great but really that intensive of spec. into something as universal as running a gang is wayyy to long.
|
Wicaeed
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 04:51:00 -
[105]
I don't see why they have to always overnerf things.
Just make gang bonuses disappear if your gang is over 50 people in size, or something along those lines. It would encourage forming fleets.
Now to just fix the lag.
|
Vox'Dei
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:18:00 -
[106]
How much processing could it take to figure out who has the best gang assist bonuses?
Bad programmers or they need some code overhaul.
Anyway don't fix whats not broken. Adding functionality for a commander thats at the battle AND saying his gang mods only work when he is command is stupid. The way eve is now no important ship would last more then the time it takes to lock it without being in constant warp. If there are spies in the enemy corp or some members that joined the other one who have any knowledge of who has leadership ability it's game over.
Anyway, this looks like an attempt to make leadership a more used tree but all its going to do is make it inaccessable to more people.
Rename the leadership tree to logistics. Let gang bonuses stay the way they are. Add functionality as a new fleet command tree. Give the newly created leadership tree the ability to bestow all this new functionality in the blog. Allow the functionality to be used by cloaked ships.
There is absolutly no reason to nerf something no one was complaining about. I like the structure but it shouldnt be attached to skill points, and from the general consensus so far most do not like the current implementation either.
Anyone who chose leadership knows what they got into. It is not about being in or near the battle. It can't be. No ships can tank a fleet of damage (without ubbermonths of skillpoints into cap ships)
In summary just dont give any of this new stuff skillpoint requirements and make gangmods work for everybody. Then everybody's happy.
/random latenight rant
|
Marc Vestabule
Minmatar
Amnion Partners
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 14:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Vox'Dei
How much processing could it take to figure out who has the best gang assist bonuses?
Bad programmers or they need some code overhaul.
Anyway don't fix whats not broken.
There is absolutly no reason to nerf something no one was complaining about.
Actually people have been very vocal and complained alot about this....its just that they did not know this was one the causes of their complaint. You cannot have failed to notice all the posts about nodes crashing, massive lag on jumping into systems have you?? What do you think was a large contributing factor??
A couple of year's ago fleet battles were almost exclusively interceptors and battleships and there were no gang skills therefore once you go past the initial loading lag (though this could be horrid) the battles where ok.
Spin forward to today. Fleets are now made up on a variety of ships including command ships. Gang skills have been implemented to. The effect is that information gang and ship bonuses needs to pass to every other ship in the battle. once a new person enters with a improved gang skill or gang mod or command ship these have to be recalculated and distributed. This greatly increases the information passing between all the clients involved in the battle and the server especially when you jump into a system.
Imagine when 100 pilots jump into a camp of another 100 pilots. When they enter the system the attacking gang clients communicate their gang bonuses to work out which ones to apply to all the ships in the gang, and then this is communicated to the 200 pilots in the system. If, for instance, a Eos pilot jumps in slightly slower his bonuses would cause the calculations to be repeated as the 99 other ships in his gang are updated and the results broadcast to the 200 pilots. The result is horrendous lag and, when the system overloads, the death of a node.
Basically CCP must have been faced with the decision to remove all the feature implemented (Command ships, gang bonuses etc) or simplify the gang features to reduce the load on the node. I think they were sensible in chosing the latter rather the former and attempting at the same time to make it a feature rather than a pure nerf.
|
Prolapse
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 14:45:00 -
[108]
This is a Nerf barely disguised as a feature IMO
(I used to refer to bugs as unwanted features so know one when I see one)
As far as I see there are some bonuses to this
1. the need to calculate gang bonuses need only be calculated on leadership changes. - less lag àyay
2. More Structured combat ...Hurrah
3. Large fleets will require more fleet commanders to get bonuses to everyone.
4. No more hidden players giving bonusesÆ from safe spots.
There are far more intrusive negatives though.
1. To get gang bonuses you have to be a commanderàà Directly penalising those who just wanted to help support their gang mates.
2. Small gangs will not get their bonus at all as they donÆt even qualify due to size. This penalises small corps quite badly.
3. The fleet leaders will be more or less forced to be in a command/capital ship and easily identified from their new frontline positions and thus always primary target.
4. This is a major change very late in the day which will likely cause many people to forgo the whole leadership skill set. And those with it to feel aggrieved at an arbitrary change effectively making some of their training worthless.
I am one of those affected badly and although not totally incapable of leading a fleet. I feel uncomfortable and rarely do so due to home circumstances having too many distractions and my casual playing habits. Having all the specializations to at least L4 and command ships to 5 with the gang bonus implants means this will be an awful lot of unused training time and ISK wasted.
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Greenbolt
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:09:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Greenbolt on 15/11/2006 17:11:56
One thing that bothers me not about the implementation but about the concept.
(And yes I fit gang modules so it applies to me too)
Most of the gang modules arent really 'leadership based' and should have nothing to do with the commander.
They seem more to fit the role of a Specialist ship fit in the fleet/gang instead.
How do your gang/fleets other ships go faster or your sig radius seem smaller...or your modules work longer range (all the skirmish bonuses that I use for example)
You have a ship with enhanced computers and modules running processes via link that your gang/fleets other ships normally would do for themselves. So it constantly tweaks those other ships systems allowing optimal results you could not get on your own with that present ships hardware..
This has absoultely nothing with leading a gang. Actually I would argue that this type of speciality ship would make a lousy gang leader as its focus is about integration and optimization and wouldnt have time to do this and analyze enemy movements as well.
Command ships should have been just specialized ships that made hard targets (you would want to defend all these speciality equipment best you can) but without any combat direct bonuses at all.
Unfortantly CCP made the HAC varients..and even the non HAC varients fairly strong combatants as well because of all the THIS SHIP MUST POWN 1 on 1 crap because it requires so many skill points.
Bah make it a true mini-profession to fly these .take away there gunboat bonuses and dont make the leaders fly them. Aka make them really useful in gangs...and useless or near useless solo.
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Pearl Charaxes
Office linebackers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.15 20:45:00 -
[110]
wts gang skill speced alt, 2 mill any takers?
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McCool
Spontaneous Defenestration
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Posted - 2006.11.15 22:13:00 -
[111]
the sun is going to expload in about 5 billion years and here you are, whining about a game that wont survive the massive blast.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Crimson Knights Trade Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.15 23:07:00 -
[112]
Question - Do you need the Fleet Command skill to form a fleet?.. If so, then this change has completely f'd Leadership skills since you need Leadership 5, and then Wing Command 5, just to start on Fleet Command.. That's a bit harsh.. I mean I can understand restricting the bonus to coming from just the gang leader, that makes sense.. You lead, you give the bonuses to your gang followers.. But to require 2+ months training solely in Leadership skills just to get the gang skills to apply kinda sucks.. And sucks in a big juicy sucky way.. It's like saying you can't use blasters at all until you can use T2 blasters. WTF?!!.. I hope I'm wrong and any gang can convert to a fleet regardless of skills, but it certainly does not read that way in the blog..
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