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Gang Modules in Kal i- A sad day for ccp

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grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:36:00 - [31] oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g>
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Skeltek Originally by: Aleis with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position. If there are any people with better gangassist skills than you have, you were even more useless from the start in the old system? ^^ Yeah. You could just as well argue that in the old system a huge amount of training was wasted, since only the highest bonuses were being used. All that is really changing here (for smaller gangs) is that you have to manually pick the leaders so you get the best bonuses. It's not rocket science, guys.
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:39:00 - [33] talking about higher skills: when do you actually see eg 2 claymore with skirmish mods in one gang? i rarely see any command ships at all in gangs, and don¦t tell me about the hac version with, if you are lucky, one module on it...
Aleis Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:39:00 - [34] so your saying that if i'm in a small corp that i should train so i can command 30+ people? how exactly is that supposed to help..? maybe it won't be so bad in a 100+ man fleet well congradulations i hope you and all the blob wars enjoy it. And no reason to give up teh old system if you don't want to? Umm the problem is i'm being forced to
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:42:00 - [35] In case someone is still confused about the new system, here's a copy of a post I made in the kali testing section, it may help. Or not. ---- As far as I understand it: - Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1) - Wing Commander gives you +1 squad per level (rank 8) - Fleet Commander gives you +1 wing per level (rank 12) The skill Squadron Command has been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist or some such, it works as before (boosts gang mods and is a req for command ships). The naming is confusing, Leadership should really be called Squadron Command, but TomB said that they can't currently rename it due to resource problems (the name "Leadership" is used in lots of places, including voice recordings). Oh well. So Leadership V gives you max 10 people (and is trivial to train for). Wing Commander V gives you max 5 x 10 + 1 = 51 people (and is a ***** to train to V, but not too bad to lvl4 which gives you 41 max) Fleet Command V gives you max 5 x 51 + 1 = 256 people (and is a horror to train fully). Of course, once you have Wing Commander V the first 3 levels of Fleet Command are still quick, which gives you 154 people in your fleet. After that it gets slower.
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:43:00 - [36] yay for new gangs! new features that screw over other stuff ftwÖ It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:45:00 - [37] wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi)
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:47:00 - [38] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Skeltek Originally by: Aleis with only a few open spots in each gang where gang bonuses will be used. If you don't yet have lots of skill points in leadership, your not going to be put into that position. If there are any people with better gangassist skills than you have, you were even more useless from the start in the old system? ^^ Yeah. You could just as well argue that in the old system a huge amount of training was wasted, since only the highest bonuses were being used. you got it ;)
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:50:00 - [39] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 10/11/2006 16:53:13 Originally by: Aleis so your saying that if i'm in a small corp that i should train so i can command 30+ people? how exactly is that supposed to help..? maybe it won't be so bad in a 100+ man fleet well congradulations i hope you and all the blob wars enjoy it. And no reason to give up teh old system if you don't want to? Umm the problem is i'm being forced to Well, first off, no you're not forced to use the new system. Old-style gangs still work, you just won't get any gang bonuses from them anymore. If you do want the gang bonuses (and the new tools and toys), you need some training. But it's really not that bad for small groups. With Wing Commander 3 you can run a 30-person gang, that needs Leadership V (which you probably already have anyway), and then a rank 8 skill to level 3. So that's, what, maybe one day plus of training on top of that Leadership V? Non-issue. For 30-40 people you need Wing Commander 4, which is starting to be a bit slower, a rank 8 skill from 3 -> 4 is... umm... 5-6 days? Still, quite doable without killing your skill budget. Over 40 people gets expensive, skillwise. If you want the bigger gangs/fleets, you need to train. The biggest hurdle is of course that WC V which gives you 50 people. After that the first levels of Fleet Command are again fast, and boost you near-instantly to 150 people which is already big-fleet territory. ...and again, you can form the full 256-person fleet without any skills at all. You just won't get gang bonuses from people who are not squad/wing/fleet commanders.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:51:00 - [40] Originally by: grizouh wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi) Yeah, WC V is the biggest roadblock here. Maybe the rank of that one should be reduced a bit.
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:53:00 - [41] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: grizouh wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi) Yeah, WC V is the biggest roadblock here. Maybe the rank of that one should be reduced a bit. no, the biggest will be fleetcommand 5 as we actually do have some bigger gangs from time to time... so if i don¦t want to loose any of my functionality i do have to train fleetcommand 5! get me now?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:57:00 - [42] Originally by: grizouh Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: grizouh wing command 5 takes me 31 days with 20 charisma ^^ (on sisi) Yeah, WC V is the biggest roadblock here. Maybe the rank of that one should be reduced a bit. no, the biggest will be fleetcommand 5 as we actually do have some bigger gangs from time to time... so if i don¦t want to loose any of my functionality i do have to train fleetcommand 5! get me now? Yes, people who want to lead huge fleets will have to do a ****load of training if they want to give bonuses to the whole fleet. I think that's fine, I think the current system of one safespotted semi-afk command ship boosting 300+ people is stupid. So yes, large-fleet commanders get nerfed (gang-bonus-wise) unless they want to study some pretty long skills. And I have no problem with that... and as far as I understand CCP doesn't like huge blobs, and wants to encourage having multiple smaller fleets instead of one monster blob. The vast majority of gangs/fleets, however, are in the 10-60 ballpark in my experience. Having a huge hurdle placed at 50 is a bit weird imho.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:01:00 - [43] Originally by: grizouh oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g> yes, I was a bit inactive lately, but it doesn¦t forcably change the high quality of my posts ^^
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:02:00 - [44] One point to remember: everyone is touched by this, you're not the only one who has to rethink and possibly skill up. The people who train the new gang skills (and manage to organize their corp/alliance to support that structure) will have an edge in combat. In the beginning, everyone at the same starting line compared to enemies of the same size. So yeah, it's a *** to train up Fleet Command V. But it will be just as much of a *** for your enemies -- especially if their current fleet command is of the Charisma 3 variety
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:02:00 - [45] Erm, you do realise that you can form a fleet with two people? Right? Then both those people will get all the bonusses? That you must already have the required skill to do so to get the other skills? In fact if you have gang sizes <11 people and one person with leadership you have lost nothing. It's people who have trained up complimentary leadership skills to work together who are going to struggle - and even then its not too bad if there are only two of them as you can create a wing commander (gives bonus to everyone including self) and gang commander (gives bonus to everyone except wing commander) with 9 people getting all the bonusses from both. Don't get me wrong, I can see why people are upset, just pointing out that it may not be as bad as you think. Zarch AlDain
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:09:00 - [46] Originally by: Alex Harumichi So yes, large-fleet commanders get nerfed (gang-bonus-wise) unless they want to study some pretty long skills. And I have no problem with that... and as far as I understand CCP doesn't like huge blobs, and wants to encourage having multiple smaller fleets instead of one monster blob. orly? did we already celebrate 30.000 customers parallel online? and blobs causing lag: do you really think all this new shiny, fluffy stuff like broadcasting messages, targeting with funky icons in space etc will not cause any more lag? if you defend your space you will blob, you have to blob. i don¦t like it neither but thats they way it goes. and don¦t tell me ccp does not want you to claim space... these changes would force me to spend nearly another 3 months to be as effective as before for skills which will not do any benefits for myself again (as all other leadership skills) if i am doing things on my own without any gang.
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:14:00 - [47] Originally by: Skeltek Originally by: grizouh oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g> yes, I was a bit inactive lately, but it doesn¦t forcably change the high quality of my posts ^^ action speaks louder than words ;o) so you will train these skills, yes? till the bitter end, yes? and as icing on the cake i will see you again in your vulture, regulary, yes?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:18:00 - [48] Originally by: grizouh Originally by: Alex Harumichi So yes, large-fleet commanders get nerfed (gang-bonus-wise) unless they want to study some pretty long skills. And I have no problem with that... and as far as I understand CCP doesn't like huge blobs, and wants to encourage having multiple smaller fleets instead of one monster blob. orly? did we already celebrate 30.000 customers parallel online? and blobs causing lag: do you really think all this new shiny, fluffy stuff like broadcasting messages, targeting with funky icons in space etc will not cause any more lag? if you defend your space you will blob, you have to blob. i don¦t like it neither but thats they way it goes. and don¦t tell me ccp does not want you to claim space... these changes would force me to spend nearly another 3 months to be as effective as before for skills which will not do any benefits for myself again (as all other leadership skills) if i am doing things on my own without any gang. I have no idea of what CCP's actual goals are, just saying that my impression is that they want to encourage multiple smaller (coordinating) fleets instead of huge blobs. What the actualy goals and aims are is anyone's guess. And as noted, yes you need to do serious training if you want to give your gang bonuses to 255 people in the fleet you lead (like now). As also noted, your enemies are in the same boat. So it's up to you. It's not like you get nerfed and your enemies don't (unless you magically need 250-person fleets against much smaller fleets, in which case you may have some other problems to deal with).
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:20:00 - [49] Originally by: grizouh these changes would force me to spend nearly another 3 months to be as effective as before for skills which will not do any benefits for myself again (as all other leadership skills) if i am doing things on my own without any gang. hmm, wouldn¦t one month of skilltraining suffice for being a top-wingleader? As you stated before, wingcommand lvl5 will need you "just" a month. I think Fleetcommander lvl3 will suffice for most Commandship pilots; I bet they will 99% of the time never be fleetcommander themselves. Personaly I believe wingcommand lvl4 would suffice for the wingcommanders(5 days of training), since gangs above 165 members are not very often to be seen. Afaik EW ships and stuff need different bonuses to be provided anyway. No offence, but I am very eager for a opinionexchange/discussion today. Skeltek ps: The Goons will probably profit the most from this change, even though they will not yet realize why. The limitation of ultrahighskilled gangassist to only a part of the force, will hit the larger alliances with bestskilled CmdShpPilots the most.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:21:00 - [50] Originally by: grizouh Originally by: Skeltek Originally by: grizouh oh nice, skel is willing to train the new skills, and you know we need them higher than for 40 people ^^, and you will actually fly a command ship again? haven¦t seen you in any for a long time <g> yes, I was a bit inactive lately, but it doesn¦t forcably change the high quality of my posts ^^ action speaks louder than words ;o) so you will train these skills, yes? till the bitter end, yes? and as icing on the cake i will see you again in your vulture, regulary, yes? yes my sweet little darling, I was planing to get all the way up to Fleetcommand lvl5 = )
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:24:00 - [51] ofc the beloved enemy has to train them, too. but thats not the point, as they also would not have to train like i wouldn¦t if ccp could find another solution. the goal of ccp introducing this system is to reduce lag due to calculations who has the highest skill! this was no joke from shamis, go read it in the general forum in the dev blog, it is stated there.
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:26:00 - [52] ôWhat you do in that case is have (for example) the armor tank booster as squad leader and shield booster as the wing commander. Voila. Everyone gets armor + shield bonuses, just like before. (note: currently the commanders don't boost each other, but TomB has confirmed this is a bug and due to current technical issues)ö Thanks for the info. In that case I take back what I said and once the bugs are fixed I have few problems with the new changeÆs. ôPottsey, I rarely disagree with you... however I don't think you've thought this one through.ö Looks like I was wrong. As I only do small gangs very little is going change for me it seems. ôi rarely see any command ships at all in gangs, and don¦t tell me about the hac version with, if you are lucky, one module on it...ö Try living in a corp that has a Command ship BPO. ô- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1)ö Have we lost the old leadership bonus then or does something else replace it? Or is the +2 on top of the old bonus? Passive shield tanking guide click here
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:28:00 - [53] Originally by: Skeltek No offence, but I am very eager for a opinionexchange/discussion today. Skeltek later hase, still in the office and will be out here in half an hour. see you tonight with your vulture
xenodia Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:34:00 - [54] So basically... you are mad because you invested 8 million skillpoints in leadership skills, but you didnt really want to lead ? Personally, I think its better to only have the bonuses come from the actual leaders. I mean the leadership skills are supposed to be there to simulate the benefits a good leader can have on a fighting forces effectiveness. I generally dont like RL comparisons to eve, but if im a RL army major, commanding a tank battalion, it doesnt matter if the sergeant driving one of the tanks in my 3rd company is a natural born leader or not. His leadership skills arent going to do crap for the rest of the tanks in the battalion. This signature space for rent
Aleis Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:45:00 - [55] Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 17:47:43 if the real probelm was that there was massive server load figureing out who had teh best bonuses then add in a role of "Support" and give a number of slots for that, Son't force us into a leadership position. No you don't need to use the new commander tools to be teh leader of a fleet, then again you don't have to be in a corperation to work to gether but i don't see many people taking that option either. You trained leadership skill points and don't want to lead Exactly And like you siad please don't bring in real life relationships into the game they never work. Just because they are called leadership doesn't mean they have any relation to actualy leading....or at least until this massive change came in. I'm a support charater. I trained Support skills, regaurdless of what they are called. Maybe they should have their name changed to Support, Oh wait that was mentioned and the only reason they aren't changing the name of the Leadership skill is because it has been to integrated into other game elements as to make it unfeasable to edit all refrences to it.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:48:00 - [56] Originally by: Pottsey ô- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1)ö Have we lost the old leadership bonus then or does something else replace it? Or is the +2 on top of the old bonus? As far as I understand it, Leadership now only gives the gang size functionality, there is (or will be?) a new skill that gives the old Leadership bonus for those that want it. The naming is a bit confusing, since "Leadership" should really be called "Squadron Command", but TomB said that the word Leadership was currently embedded in so many places (including voice recordings) that they didn't have the resources to change the skill name right now. They did change the current Squadron Command skill name into something more Kali-suitable (Gang Module Specialist or some such).
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:58:00 - [57] Edited by: grizouh on 10/11/2006 18:07:36 Originally by: xenodia So basically... you are mad because you invested 8 million skillpoints in leadership skills, but you didnt really want to lead ? Personally, I think its better to only have the bonuses come from the actual leaders. I mean the leadership skills are supposed to be there to simulate the benefits a good leader can have on a fighting forces effectiveness. I generally dont like RL comparisons to eve, but if im a RL army major, commanding a tank battalion, it doesnt matter if the sergeant driving one of the tanks in my 3rd company is a natural born leader or not. His leadership skills arent going to do crap for the rest of the tanks in the battalion. this argumentation is just pointless. go back to page one and start reading again, if you don¦t like it read aleis answer below yours: in the first line our skills support the gang! second point, just for you: normally the fc¦s in large scale engagements fly covert ops, well at least ours do. so that they will not be blown away from the very beginning to do their target calling etc. unfortunately i can not fit command modules on a covert ops. actually i do have a cloaking device on my claymore, but i can not use my modules while being cloaked. with the new system the command ships will be even more primary as before so please tell me with your wise rl experience how this will work together even if i stay at the frontline, boost my gangmates and do the fc job? and if we are honest you will know it will not work. and if the fc wanna use all the new tools from the new gangsystem he has to be in the fleetcommander position which will narrow the commandships down to wingcommanders. and there is the next nerf as we will only be able to boost 50 people in one wing. for what training time alltogether starting with having presence at lvl4?
Decairn Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:06:00 - [58] Leadership skills are support functions, they're nothing about leading, the base skill tree is badly named. Yes people have trained this for the benefit of their friends and team mates and do not want to lead. The new structure of fleets nerfs gang bonuses somewhat. It's not really a bad change though as far as structure goes, there's some thought required where to put the bonus givers for maximum benefits, and we need more people with these skills for the same effect. All in all, I don't see too much wrong with that. However, pushing the bonsues givers into the command positions is a bad way to implement. Create a secondary role in the command strcture at the lead level, 'gang bonus comander' for lack of a better term; this allows leaders to lead and have all those tools at their disposal and still allows the performance stuff to be fixed. The command ship pilots simply register themselves as that role in the same way as the squad/wing/fleet commander does. I'd love to salvage something from this new strcutre without pushing unwilling people into the lead positions. --Decairn
Aleis Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:22:00 - [59] Speaking of carriers... Everyone with 5mil+ in leadership (/me raises hand) should probably start thinking about carriers - with carrier skill at 4 you get 4 gang mods, and post Kali you have a very large hitpoint buffer... I have been unfortuantly i hate battleships so I'd have to start from scratch to train that up, yes indeed i've been playing since beta and don't fly anyhting larger than a BC. But i'm a support character and the carriers are the ultimate support ships so i have been thinking on it....jus tthat 90 day+ training to get there thats the bugger of all,
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:36:00 - [60] You only give your gang bonuses to people under your command. Except Wing and Fleet commanders which should give their bonuses to each other, this bit is bugged. What am I reading wrong from all the information thats been released? Nothing has alluded to any other option other than you can only boost people under your command.

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