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Drusus Rensus Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:48:00 - [1] ItÆs been fascinating to follow the events down south here on the forums. What IÆm seeing emerge is a model (lets call it the BoB model) for taking over and ruling Eve that looks like it might have a shot at succeeding. Here are the key elements that I see in the ôBoB modelö: 1)Eve belongs to ôleetö PvPers. Everyone else pays to play. The only people you should let into your alliance are those who excel at, and focus on, PvP, and who could be described as ôhard core gamersö. In other words, those who play for hours every day. Others should be allowed to live in the space that you own (for a fee) but shouldnÆt be in the alliance proper. As you conquer new space, move more peasants in to work it for you. The more space your conquer, and the more peasants you have working for you and paying tribute to your ôleetö PvP alliance, the more youÆll be able to focus on PvP, and taking over whatever space you donÆt already own. 2)Make Extensive Use of Spies. If your opponents donÆt follow #1 above, they will be easy to infiltrate with spies because of exploitable limitations in the game mechanics. If you do follow #1 above, your alliance will be much harder to infiltrate. Having spies in their alliance, on their TS, and reading their forums will give you an enormous tactical advantage, and provide fertile material for propaganda (see #3 below). 3)Use Intelligence for Propaganda. Propaganda has three purposes. The first is to motivate your side. The second is to demoralize your target. The third is to discourage other alliances from entering a conflict against you. From the intelligence that you gather in #2 above, find things that you can point to publicly as provocations and insults to motivate your side. Look for statements that you can hold up to ridicule to try to persuade the members of your target to defect and quit, and the members of alliances looking on not to come to their aid. DonÆt be bashful about making direct appeals to players in your target alliance to desert, defect, or quit, or holding their leadership up to public ridicule. The idea is to win, not to play nice. 4)Co-Opt any PvP Force in the Game that Might Present a Challenge. If other organizations of ôleetö PvPers exist in the game, Offer them their own space, and your ôfriendshipö. Make it very unattractive for them to attack you, or join any conflict in opposition to you by being ôgood to themö. You can always deal with them last. 5) War and Conquest is the Objective, There is No Other. The alliance should be formed with the singular objective and purpose of claiming and collecting rents on as much space as possible, up to and including all of the player ownable space in the game. No reason at all is required to attack a neighbor, except for the simple fact that they arenÆt paying rents to you, yet. For any history buffs out there, the ôBoB modelö should seem familiar. ItÆs pretty much the Roman model, with a little Machiavelli thrown in. In a game where might makes right and there is a peon class player who, if given no other choice, will pay rents and tribute to the ôleetsö to be allowed to log on and mine, build, or whatever they find fun in peace, it will probably, eventually, dominate the entire game.
Drusus Rensus Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:49:00 - [2] It looks to me like alliances that have not adopted the ôBoB modelö have one of three choices: 1)Adopt the BoB Model. If your alliance is made up of a mixed-bag of PvPers and industrialists, youÆd best boot the industrialists and have them form alliances that you will allow to stay in place as long as they pay you rent. YouÆd also better see what you can do about getting as many ôleetö pvpers THAT YOU KNOW WELL into the core alliance that remains as you can, as fast as you can, so that you can start to adopt the other elements of the model. 2)Submit to the BoB Model. The worst mistake you could make would be thinking that BoB wonÆt attack you unless you have acknowledged that your space it their space, and are paying them rents. If you arenÆt paying them rent, you will be their target. ItÆs just a matter of time. If youÆre not willing to fight them, or become them, better join them. 3)Decide that the BoB model is a Bad Idea. Do the other alliances want to play a game where the BoB model dominates? If not, the time to act is probably now, rather than later. BoB is good, but they couldnÆt withstand hundreds or thousands of players acting in concert to take them apart because a concensus developed that what theyÆre doing is ultimately bad for the game. If they are to succeed at continuing to expand their dominance over the game, they have to rely on the other alliances squabbling among themselves and allowing themselves to be picked off one at a time.
Pepperami Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:52:00 - [3] How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? [EVE TASK BAR?]
Ediz Daxx FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Pepperami How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? Fleet of mining BS?
Righteous Fury Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:54:00 - [5] Edited by: Righteous Fury on 13/11/2006 18:56:51 Just going to point out an issue with your first point. Being a "hard core" gamer is a bit of a misnomer, because the amount of time you put into actually playing the game means approximately zero. The real key is finding a group of dedicated players who will work for the good of the group from the second they log in until the minute they log out. Overall, it could be twenty minutes, it could be six hours. Everyone does their job and moves the alliance forward. Contrast this with ASCN, who undoubtedly have people who play as much as the most logged-in BoB pilots - yet they can't get their act together. Using this specific example (that is common in a lot of alliances unfortunately), there are several separate groups of people. The industrialists, the pvpers, and the freelancers, all working for somewhat of a commmon goal but also for their own gain. This leads to a lack of alliance cohesion and dedication, and thus is not as efficient. Sacrifice yourself to your leader and you become more valuable than words can describe. edit: This is not to say BoB has no industrialists, so don't take my point incorrectly. The point I'm reinforcing is that even their industrialists get in on combat (i.e. Constructive Influence, Black Eclipse), and build specifically for epic wars such as this. ASCN also have a strong industrial base, but where are all their toys? I've flown through their space on raids before, I know quite well they have a number of carriers and motherships that clearly have not seen combat as they should have. BoB builds their toys and immediately throw them onto the battlefield, whereas ASCN's toys are where, logged off? Running complexes? Regardless, they're not where they are supposed to be.
konkord eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Pepperami How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? by having the people that they charge to live in their space, mine for them. BoB slave corps. Its how BoB manage to encompass the ideology of pure PvP; sectioning off and allying themselves with corporations who basically pay BoB for protection money. ----------------------
Ribbo Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Pepperami How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? fix, MC, xelas and our other "slaves" donated the mins and the bpo, god dont you read the forums! ;) ribbo - fanboi'ing eve-celebrities the world over.
Yodaron Ballsithor Gallente Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Pepperami How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? Because, as the community apparently believes, they are GM's or alts of GM's, hence they just spawn them. Tinfoil hat off.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:56:00 - [9] Edited by: DB Preacher on 13/11/2006 19:01:15 what? Most of your "points" are not factual and the conclusion appears to be a statement rather than promoting any sort of discussion. If you want me to actually go through them and debunk them then I will but if you are going to do a piece on our alliance please attempt to make it factual. Otherwise you just end up looking like another lonely alt of aneu. I'll give u a quick piece of advice. Don't use the forums for gaining all your information about an alliance. Go look them up ingame and find out what they are really about. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:57:00 - [10] I think you are mistaking the "The BoB Model" for something it isn't.. I do think that the "BoB model" is the gold standard in EVE atm... however, what you have described is not it.
thoth foc Destructive Influence	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:57:00 - [11] I seem to have missed which parts of your posts are meant to be discussed.. You have stated an opinion. do you want marks out of 10? >: )
Edheler Quintessential Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Edheler on 13/11/2006 19:01:41 The basics of the analysis, while skewed, are reasonably accurate. Your analysis modified by Righteous Furys comments would probably hit nearer the mark. Edheler Quintessential CEO
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Pepperami How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? Black Eclipse Corporation doesn't exist. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Shizuko Caldari E X O D U S	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:00:00 - [14] Edited by: **uko on 13/11/2006 19:00:46 What a load of bollucks. War "Machines" dont run on thin air. (Or vacuums in this instance).
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:04:00 - [15] Interesting, HUGELY inaccurate but amusing none the less. Blog
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:05:00 - [16] Let me give you a small hint. If any Eve alliance is to survive in the long run, it needs to strive towards self-sufficiency on ALL fronts, not just pvp. The use of guest corporations and alliances in your space has less to do with you needing them to fuel your fleets then with you needing them to take care of the daily management of parts of your space. Empty space becomes unstable, vacuums desire to be filled. I appreciate the somewhat creative and slightly nuanced atttempt at painting a certain picture of BoB but it simply doesn't work as anyone with a good brain can come up with the faults in your model. Old blog
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:09:00 - [17] Edited by: Zagum Darkfin on 13/11/2006 19:12:43 I have a few rebutals to your post: First, I would correct you in your assumptions that BoB is merely a PVP alliance with no industrial resources, members, or income. On the exact opposite, we are more carebears than you can know or guess. No fleet is better than its supply chain. Logistics are the key to any battle. You would be a moron to cut off the hands that keeps the war machine moving. Second is Leadership. No alliance would be anything if it did not have an adequate leadership model and people to make good decisions. If you want to play the alliance game, you need to be one savy and flexible dude/dudettes. Third is honesty. Keeping open lines of communication between the low ranks to the high ranks is very important. Being honest with your members and keeping them informed to what is going on builds trust and loyalty. Fourth is trust. If you are honest with your members, corps and other diplomatic efforts, you will build trust and people will respect you and will be willing to work with you. This can be accomplished also by fighting a harden enemny and respecting them through ingame actions. Your posts focus on the negative side, this does not build a good relationship with alliance members. Always focus on the positive and people with gravitate to those leaders. Yes we use all intelligence means to defeat our enemies, but this is only a small portion of building a successful alliance and warfare. What you propose is only a small part of the bigger picture when it comes to alliances.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:15:00 - [18] There have been many PvP alliances in eve. BoB succeeds because of their strong industrial base. Most of the best PvP'ers are also efficient industrialists simply because its the quickest way for them to sustain their PvP'ing. The difficulty is usually in harnessing the various individual industrialists to work together from time to time, which bob seems to have been able to do.
Hast Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:17:00 - [19] In regards to the Intelligence part. It doesent mean diddley squat that you know where the enemy fleet is if you dont have a equal or better fleet to destroy it. It seems the tinfoil-hat brigade puts too much weight into the spying buisness. Of course knowing what the enemy does while he doesent have a clue about what you are up to helps. But when the fleets are within 150km of eachother the playing field is level and the battle comes down to the skill of the players involved and the fleet commanders. Intelligence is good when it comes to setting up the pieces but when it comes down to the good old fashioned slugfest it does not matter at all.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Hast manlove That's a proper Hast post Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Hackett Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:21:00 - [21] Aaaaww! I thought this was going to be something about we have recruited Kelly Brook or some other bit of top crumpet... http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9813/evolhackett6ln.gif Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit
Maltor'Vak Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:22:00 - [22] Originally by: Ribbo Originally by: Pepperami How did bob build a titan with no industrialists? fix, MC, xelas and our other "slaves" donated the mins and the bpo, god dont you read the forums! ;) ribbo LOL, HAHAHAHA ___________________________________
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:32:00 - [23] I think that if people actually knew the true industrial power of the major PVP alliences it would blow thier brains away. I have my own theroies as to why this is but... I know that most of the PVP power blocks in this game have an industrial base that far exceeds that of even the dedicated carebear groups. Take my word on it or not, but I'll be willing to bet large sums of isk, that PVP groups out class the carebears not only in combat, but also in industry as well.
BlackRain Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:38:00 - [24] Doesn't look like people will understand the whole concept of a working alliance although the members of BoB are quite open and vocal about it. It's about playing all aspects of the game to the max - and getting the most out of the whole broad spectrum of things you can do. You simply need to do it with a strong leadership and a memberbase which is in agreement on how the game should be played. You can't create an unbeatable warmachine without having an enormously strong industrial system, nor can you maintain the backbone without having the ability to kick your enemies around. The system kind of feeds itself. It is pretty darn simple, to be honest. ------------------- -
Pepperami Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Lorth I think that if people actually knew the true industrial power of the major PVP alliences it would blow thier brains away. I have my own theroies as to why this is but... I know that most of the PVP power blocks in this game have an industrial base that far exceeds that of even the dedicated carebear groups. Take my word on it or not, but I'll be willing to bet large sums of isk, that PVP groups out class the carebears not only in combat, but also in industry as well. I think "workhard, playhard" attitude has something to do with maybe the majority of eve-pvp'ers being people with A.D.D. and I think that... hey, let's go ride bikes. (c) mr.mayhem [EVE TASK BAR?]
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Pepperami Originally by: Lorth I think that if people actually knew the true industrial power of the major PVP alliences it would blow thier brains away. I have my own theroies as to why this is but... I know that most of the PVP power blocks in this game have an industrial base that far exceeds that of even the dedicated carebear groups. Take my word on it or not, but I'll be willing to bet large sums of isk, that PVP groups out class the carebears not only in combat, but also in industry as well. I think "workhard, playhard" attitude has something to do with maybe the majority of eve-pvp'ers being people with A.D.D. and I think that... hey, let's go ride bikes. (c) mr.mayhem Wow i have no idea what the hell you're talking about and i'm seriously **ed off and offended that you would label pvpers all in one group like...ooh plastic bag plastic bag plastic bag Manlove by Zaphod Jones**
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:48:00 - [27] PvP in 0.0 is just entertainment at best if its not directed to increasing or defending your own piece of 0.0. If it wasn't for the industralisation of 0.0 BoB and many others still would be roving alliances. To me the BoB model is just about sucking in as many powerplayers as possible. Happens in all MMORG's and its quite common. The achievement is to keep them interested
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:49:00 - [28] Edited by: JP Moregain on 13/11/2006 19:51:51 I seriously doubt BoB relies on the "the slave corps" / "lap dogs" for supplying them either industrially or even in the form of Isk payments. It would be quite foolish for them to have that kind of dependancy, since all anyone would have to do to beat them would be to destroy their suppliers. As was noted somewhere above, combat logistics really rule one's ability to project force in this game. You can have the best PvPer's around and if they are not properly equipped and organized it machts nichts. I seriously doubt any serious alliance wants to 'farm out' those capabilities... Given that BoB has limited numbers however, it does make sense to have friendly corps/alliances occupy and stabilize the space after it is taken. In fact, one could argue that it has worked to BoB's advantage significantly in the ASCN wars, as it resulted in the diversion of roughly 20 ASCN dreads and capital pilots up to fountain where their effects on the war efforts appear to have been minimal at best. JP http://www.evereserve.com
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:59:00 - [29] Originally by: JP Moregain I seriously doubt BoB relies on the "the slave corps" / "lap dogs" for supplying them either industrially or even in the form of Isk payments. We don't. Blog
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:01:00 - [30] Edited by: Nero Winger on 13/11/2006 20:05:43 Originally by: Drusus Rensus the big post up there look. there is a crucial mistake in your theory. you compare EvE with the real world. you see things that are considered as "bad" or "wrong" in your RL-society. Things that you would never do i persume. Things no normal human would do - like murder another human. or steal a car. or look through another persons window (huh thats fun, isnt it?). the television is considered as a alternative world. people there kill other people, steal things yes even eat other people (remeber some strange movies). the important thing is to keep an eye on what is real and what is fiction. people like you want to generate rules and laws and bans to everything they see or fell should have them. to be abenefit to the eve comunity? for what? i dont care for carebears as they do not care for me to. and for the industrial part. as some of my ally mates stated it before - it would blow your mind if you knew whats going on in PvP alliances. ÄBut why are you playing eve? to flee from the boredom of a RL into the boredom of a FL that have the same rouls and bans and is the same boring like the real one? i would not play eve if i did not have all the options to choose. killing people sux in RL and stealing the same (ofc it does) but in eve you are not Max Musterman (not my RL name) you are Drusus Rensus or E. McShul or some other name that you like but would never call yourself like that in RL. a lot people in BoB understand the difference between these two societies and enjoy the benefits out of that while some people (like you) are the guys who want to make laws, ruls and boredom a common thing in a world which should benefit everybody with fun and be interessting. if you really belive what you posted then pls continue, make yourself a name and go fight the ebil boblers but consider one fact that has been proved over some thousands of year in RL. When you break down a force another one will rise from the previous ones rouines and most probably will be the same evil. the idea of my words is that BoB member enjoy their life in EvE, not that we are evil. like everyone else can do the same in their own ways. U wana mine? then go to empire and mine. You wanna NPC? then make missions in jita (or wherever) you are free to chose. But when you want mine and make 300m isk per day and sell it on E-Bay then be aware that PvP alliances hold the entire 0.0 and you will have to fight for your right to do what you want in 0.0. if you want the big fat fruity NPCs in 0.0 its the same case. perhaps it is called 0.0 because it has no secutiry for everybody at all. its pure anarchy without rules. if you like roules the empire would be a better choise for you. - the above written is a personal opinion and do not reflect my Corporatio/Alliance - flame me, not BoB. -SIG- Personally i do not flame at anybody --- BUT --- If you flame at me, do not expect that i will not return it in the same way....

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