Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

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It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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Originally by: Trepkos

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The only difference between GS and NPC's are that GS respawn quicker.

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Originally by: Waragha

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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I like cruisers so i will give some comments on that.
Caldari = Still good, ECM Caracal might have been nerfed. WIth the new HAMs the caracal might be very sick (havent checked fittings etc, don't flame me :p) BB seems to be buffed?
Amarr = still crap, even more so now
Gallente = Vexor, possibly better unless drone killing is really as viable now as they say on test
Thorax = brick of capdeathness :)
Minmatar = Stabber, still good tho possibly nerfed alot for 1v1 because of its damage output.
Ruppy, im not really sure. It allways has had a very good tank and been a top level cruiser. I think that with the other races cap issues its a buff.

So what happened, Amarr cruisers still suck (****). Vexor is still good and thorax went from good to useless, Caldari recieved buffs. Minmatar im not quite sure of..

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Originally by: Jouno

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i think you should stop posting for awhile m8, you will never get it that people arent talking about the individual changes they are talking about how it affects the game as a whole. So take a brake go make more charts run some numberes then come back and post some more, you know so people dont forget your the man on the forums

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Originally by: Abbadon Karis

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The fact that they are already wasting development time on interior stations etc should tell you that Eve is unfortunatly a sinking ship

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Originally by: Abbadon Karis

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and the next game is already planned and a small company as CCP won't be able to run two mmo's:(

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Originally by: Patch86

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How ironic that "****" (polish) is filtered, but "arse" and "ass" are not. No polish swearing on these English language only forums, or bannage!

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Originally by: Abbadon Karis

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Funny thing is, well actually it isnt very funny since all these things remind me of what happened to SWG after NGE or whatever the update from hell was called. Was kinda ammusing when they where talking about the game on the fanfest and assured us it woudnt get more carebear but the changes certainly lead the game that path.

Not to mention the merger with Whilewolf... WW have a rep for destroying companies and milking them even if CCP manages to work alongside WW kiss Eve good bye. The fact that they are already wasting development time on interior stations etc should tell you that Eve is unfortunatly a sinking ship and the next game is already planned and a small company as CCP won't be able to run two mmo's:(

Too bad really is one of the few somewhat no carebear pvp games left. Ehhh hopefulyl Vanguard will life up to peoples expectations.

8 years now workign in the industry, working on EQ, Shadowbane and Uru Live and its always the same story again. The devs dumb a game down to have more appeal torwards a bigger market. The fact that they are alienating their customers doesnt make a difference. Afterall if you get 20k new subscribers, who cares about the 5000 fanboys that quit.

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Originally by: Taipan Gedscho

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who was the guy at the fanfest that said
"we wont dumb down eve. because its just not possible. because eve is about player interaction and politics."

that could be interpreted: "we gonna **** eve over. we gonna make it so, that every dumbnut can be playing it like tetris.
but dont worry! you still can interact with your friends and we have no influence on those!"

im feeling cold now.

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Originally by: Caztra Tor

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Troll. Tricks are for kids.

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Originally by: Waragha

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Thorax = brick of capdeathness :)

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Jouno

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i think you should stop posting for awhile m8, you will never get it that people arent talking about the individual changes they are talking about how it affects the game as a whole. So take a brake go make more charts run some numberes then come back and post some more, you know so people dont forget your the man on the forums

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My comment was to the "hitpoint boost ruins balance" comment. Because it doesnt. It just changes it. And I WAS talking about how it affects the 4 races as a whole in pvp, yeah. Feel free to disagree!

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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Originally by: Hayabusa Fury

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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How the he!! did Caldari get best out of this???!?!?!?

The optimal bonus is now useless as all ship have time to close distance now. Especially against the games least mobile ships.

Missles slow DPS is even now more obvious that people will have all day to warp off before the missle make their mark.

Gallente should come out best as now the time to close distance for blasters and the damage bonus they recieve is even better. Sure they have to eat some damage while they close, but the second half the fight they will out DPS everyone.

Speed now make Minmatar better as well.

HP boost and effect on race "uberness" is:

1.Gallente
2.Minmatar
3.Caldari
4.Ammar

This really is a Caldari nerf if you look at it. I still love the hp increase. Maybe people will live beyong the jump in lag and a real fight will happen.

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Originally by: Hayabusa Fury

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HP boost and effect on race "uberness" is:

1.Gallente
2.Minmatar
3.Caldari
4.Ammar

This really is a Caldari nerf if you look at it. I still love the hp increase. Maybe people will live beyong the jump in lag and a real fight will happen.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Eve isnt even hard. I really dont see how people (for example) can learn how to drive a car, but think Eve is complicated.

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Quote:

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Do you even have a clue who WW is? With which companies they have worked with? Take a look and find me one company that has made money from working with WW and didnt go belly up.

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Originally by: Hayabusa Fury

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HP boost and effect on race "uberness" is:

1.Gallente
2.Minmatar
3.Caldari
4.Ammar

This really is a Caldari nerf if you look at it. I still love the hp increase. Maybe people will live beyong the jump in lag and a real fight will happen.

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Originally by: Taipan Gedscho

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Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 14/11/2006 14:25:56

Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Eve isnt even hard. I really dont see how people (for example) can learn how to drive a car, but think Eve is complicated.

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on my last holidays in greece i often saw kids (about 10yo) moving cars around for their daddies.

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Originally by: Taipan Gedscho

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.....driving cars is much less complicated than eve. period.....

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Originally by: anonymous

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If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Originally by: Taipan Gedscho

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.....driving cars is much less complicated than eve. period.....

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Awesome quote :D

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Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Originally by: Taipan Gedscho

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.....driving cars is much less complicated than eve. period.....

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Awesome quote :D

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If you hit an old lady she'll respawn anyway.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Anyone can steer and use the pedals of course, thats not what I meant.

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Originally by: Hayabusa Fury

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How the he!! did Caldari get best out of this???!?!?!?

The optimal bonus is now useless as all ship have time to close distance now. Especially against the games least mobile ships.

Missles slow DPS is even now more obvious that people will have all day to warp off before the missle make their mark.

Gallente should come out best as now the time to close distance for blasters and the damage bonus they recieve is even better. Sure they have to eat some damage while they close, but the second half the fight they will out DPS everyone.

Speed now make Minmatar better as well.

HP boost and effect on race "uberness" is:

1.Gallente
2.Minmatar
3.Caldari
4.Ammar

This really is a Caldari nerf if you look at it. I still love the hp increase. Maybe people will live beyong the jump in lag and a real fight will happen.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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Originally by: Tuxford

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The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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By the way, what do you think would happen if I decided to stop playing Eve and not post anymore. Im willing to bet: "Nothing". Thats how important I am. :)

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Originally by: Tuxford

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The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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Originally by: Jasai Kameron

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Thanks, mate. That's very good to hear. Boosting maximum cap to compensate makes sense to me.

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Originally by: Tyler Lowe

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Originally by: Tuxford

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The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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While you're looking at cap batteries, may I humbly suggest that given the fitting requirements vs a cap recharger, these modules are a touch underpowered. IMHO, they could use a boost. Also, can we look forward to the tech II variant of the large cap battery and/or XL cap batteries being seeded?

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

---

The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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Originally by: Ituralde

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Perhaps this boost should be targeted more towards the Gallente(Armor tanks, microwarpdrives and neutron blasters) and more importantly the Amarr (Lasers, heavy armor tanks, and that MWD you probably can't fit anyways...) else its pointless

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Originally by: Abbadon Karis

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Too bad really is one of the few somewhat no carebear pvp games left. Ehhh hopefulyl Vanguard will life up to peoples expectations.

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Originally by: Old Geeza

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I wish people would stop trying to change the EANM modules so they don't give an EM boost - they are very useful on T2 ships when you have patched your resistance hole(s).

The problem is that Amarr do far too much EM damage and too little thermal damage. Time for a T2 close-range 75% Thermal 25% EM crystal. While you're at it, give Minmatar those missing T2 EM/Thermal (50/50 please) ammos too.

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Originally by: Wintermoon

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Capacitor capacity boost across the board?

Hell yeah, the apoc's bonus just went premium!

With better cap batteries too you can make the ultimate capacitor warfare boat (step aside domi darling, amarr's in town).

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari)

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HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE

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Originally by: Wintermoon

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Capacitor capacity boost across the board?

Hell yeah, the apoc's bonus just went premium!

With better cap batteries too you can make the ultimate capacitor warfare boat (step aside domi darling, amarr's in town).

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

---

The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

---

Originally by: Tuxford

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We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

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Originally by: FraXy

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Deathbarrage, i think with increased capacitor and increased recharge fitting one CPR/CR II will boost Cap/sec by a fair bit.

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Originally by: FraXy

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Any chance to look over gallente efficiency bonus?

The Eos tank and ****ation tank doesn`t even come close to matching and the Eos can`t fit a plate without going either single-rep or 2 hardeners and both alternatives will gimp overall tankability.

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Originally by: Miri Tirzan

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It is nice to see that Tux is looking at the cap issues, however, I think an across the board cap increase is the wrong way to go. It may be easy to do but there are alot of unintended impacts.

Why does cap need increased? It is for the weapon systems. Shield tanking and armor tanking are fairly easy to sustain if your not using your cap for weapon systems. Now is the goal to increase the cap available for tanking or to keep weapon systems operating.

If the goal is to increase the time that weapons can fire, then increase the bonus to controlled bursts from 5% to 10%. That way your not making the ships that do not use cap for weapons systems more uber. If you do the across the board cap increase, then those ships that use cap-less weapons will have much more cap to put into tanking. It would be unbalacing to have some ships get a tank boost while other just get enough to keep thier weapons going. In some cases the tank boost will off-set the weapons sustainability and we are right back where we started, out of cap for weapons before the battle is over.

As a side note. Amarr has problems with cap and fitting for energy turrets. Can we get the cap use for energy turrets removed and a cap recharge bonus for the ship instead? It would be ok if amarr ships sucked cap like no tomorrow if, and this is a big if, the ships had an hugh bonus to recharge to help them sustain it. 20% recharge bonus per skill level works out to being about the same as a 10% per level cap reduction use of turrets.

I tossed that in since Tux actually seems to be reading this thread.

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Originally by: FraXy

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Deathbarrage, i think with increased capacitor and increased recharge fitting one CPR/CR II will boost Cap/sec by a fair bit.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

---

The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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Quote:

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Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari
Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship
Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Miri Tirzan

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yada yada yada

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I agree here. Giving all that extra cap keeps cap-intensive ships like Blasterboats and Laserships more in line with how they are now, but it gives a lot of extra cap to the ships that don't use cap on their weapons.

By the way, a 20% recharge/level bonus would mean infinite cap at level 5, so it's not really an option, and even if they changed it to just give stupidly fast recharge, all it would lead to would be an increase in Hybrid/Projectile setups with quadruple reps or something similarly silly.

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Originally by: Crellion

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Ok my completely insignificant opinion on how to boost cap is this:

(a) Definitions: Using exclusively = thatswhere your bonus and most highslots go to. Using mostly = thats where your highslots go to mostly + no bonus. Using some = some of the slots no bonus can use other weapon system with bonus.

(b) Cap redistribution:
- Ships using exclusively hybrids and energy weapons > 100% cap increase
- Ships using mostly hubrids and energy weapons > 80% cap increase
- Ships using some hybrids and energy weapons > 70% cap increase
- Ships using drones exclusively > 60%
- Ships using missles + projectiles exclusively > 50% cap increase
- Ships using missles + projectiles exclusively + have adequate grid and midslots for passive shield tanks + dont have active shield tank bonuses > 45% cap increase.

(c) Declaration: I provide this opinion though I use ships belonging in all of the above categories often on my 2 characters and also bearing in mind my duty to promote best possible gameplay for all irrespective of race.

I might be wrong oc but I am not prejudiced I believe.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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As for were I'm going with this game then I'm flattered and all but I'm just one of the team tugging at the rope.

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Originally by: Ihar Enda

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Fixing the cap problem should be done mostly by changing the controlled bursts skill to a much higher bonus, as just boosting cap / injectors may lead to some unbreakable tanks...

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Originally by: Hayabusa Fury

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Ok to the no cap weapons issue=Caldari

If you want to participate in PvP as Caldari and you actually want a kill, you need to use hybrids. Hybrids use cap and get a nerf like all the other races. Missles don't really have a big place in PvP and that is what everyone is in a huff about. PvP!!!
And to range and missle:

Missles hit at any range yes, but when you use speed to make them miss, they miss at any range too. Every race can dictate the range and speed of the engagement agaist Caldari so you orbiting me at your optimal while using enough speed to lower my missle DPS mean you win against my missle ships. If I use Hybrids then I have the same issues as gallente except without the damage bonus and speed factor. On paper Caldari look really overpowered but in reality they are on par with Gallente and Minmatar. Sorry Ammar

Because a slow caldari missle boat can't catch anything, how does it kill anything? If your prey can run when it wants too then that is a useless weapon in a fight. Ravens and Drakes look big and scary and on paper they have great damage potential. But again in game is a different story. It is not the suxor. but it doesn't own either and doesn't need a nerf.

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Originally by: Phelan Lore

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No because minmatar ships already have the least cap.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

---

It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

---

The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

---

The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Jasai Kameron

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Thanks, mate. That's very good to hear. Boosting maximum cap to compensate makes sense to me.

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Its the easiest thing to do to keep the status quo and just make fights longer. The reason for us making the fights longer is something that Oveur talked about at the fanfest in his speech. As for were I'm going with this game then I'm flattered and all but I'm just one of the team tugging at the rope.

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Originally by: Mikelio Raijan

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Originally by: Tuxford

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The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges

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Sorry to take snippets from your post but I need to talk from the perspective of someone who almost exclusivly uses blaster boats..

The cap problem niggling at myself and other cap *****s I know would not be fixed by a general cap ammount increase, (without an increase in cap/s in close range ships) ill put it to you this way, fit a duel repper electron setup... activate both reppers and the MWD for a couple of cycles, then turn off the mwd and activate all the guns (+ a nos on your target). It utterly rapes your cap, infact the only thing keeping the ship going is the sheer cap/s from the injects, so once you run out of injects its not just a disadvantge, its a matter of seconds before your guns force you to totally cap out, so adding +50% hp and the possibility of more jam cycles against you (which can effectivly reset the fight from the enemies perspective) is a huge blow!
I know you didn't factor the rather essential injector into the megas cpu tweak and your statement on the devchat about being happy about ships running out of cap charges during a fight does worry me that you havn't played with ACpests and B-trhons much, please do, they are amazingly fun solo fighting machines... enjoy them.. dont kill them!

Please, please at minimum decrease the size of cap charges and then work from there, the logisics of having to 'refuel' after every decent fight is brutal enough, let alone loosing a fight in your suicide boat under ideal conditions.

(I'm not even going to go into the rather odd changes to gallente close range ammo and the fears that people will still be using the chance based ecm on many, many ships here)

I'm sorry if it sounds rather aggressive but your doing so many changes at once, there is so little time to test them and so little communication on the forums about them. (still no word on the warp to 0km??!!!!)

..that was alot of text from me.. I think I need to lie down now.

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Originally by: Radioactive Babe

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Originally by: FraXy

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Any chance to look over gallente efficiency bonus?

The Eos tank and ****ation tank doesn`t even come close to matching and the Eos can`t fit a plate without going either single-rep or 2 hardeners and both alternatives will gimp overall tankability.

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Eos gets faster cap recharge time, and with shield stats like this: 3000 with 0, 60, 85, 60 as opposed to 2625 with 0, 90, 70, 20 on the d amnation you could nearly shield tank also more drone space and decent command ship bonuses (5% damage and 7.5% armour repair amount per level) as opposed to 10% less cap use for medium turrets and 5% armour resists (which makes NO difference when ship is active tanked)

Basically you want higher resists to make your much better ship a solopwnmobile


On topic: dont give more cap to caldari missle boats or minnie ships, they would remain overpowered as they would tank longer so the gallente and amarr ships will still run out of cap.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

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It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

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The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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The only real problem I see with hitpoint change is the cap issue. Easy fix is really, boost the total capacity of all ships and the recharge time maintaining the same peak cap/sec but giving you more total capacitor (cap batteries as well). I sent a mail way back about doing this when we did the hp change and we had a discussion and decided not to do it. We've pretty much restarted the whole discussion but now I fear that that the decisions were all based on misunderstanding, people thinking that I wanted to boost the peak charge instead of just more cap, longer recharge time.

We're also looking into volume of cap charges. Normally I would say ****it its fine that people could potentially run out of charges, cap booster shouldn't really end all worries on cap but in reality it just makes nosferatu more powerful, which isn't really what we're going for.

I was also a bit lazy when increasing the shield recharge time on battlecruisers and command ships so I might have accidentally boosted passive shield tanks a bit too much.

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Originally by: Old Geeza

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I wish people would stop trying to change the EANM modules so they don't give an EM boost - they are very useful on T2 ships when you have patched your resistance hole(s).

The problem is that Amarr do far too much EM damage and too little thermal damage. Time for a T2 close-range 75% Thermal 25% EM crystal. While you're at it, give Minmatar those missing T2 EM/Thermal (50/50 please) ammos too.

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Originally by: Old Geeza

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Originally by: Ihar Enda

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Fixing the cap problem should be done mostly by changing the controlled bursts skill to a much higher bonus, as just boosting cap / injectors may lead to some unbreakable tanks...

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*sigh*

Unbreakable tanks would only occur if the cap recharge were to stay the same. By increasing the cap recharge by the same amount as the capacitor itself, you would still regen exactly the same cap per second.

It astonishes me that people still can't grasp this simple fact.

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Originally by: Miri Tirzan

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It is nice to see that Tux is looking at the cap issues, however, I think an across the board cap increase is the wrong way to go. It may be easy to do but there are alot of unintended impacts.

Why does cap need increased? It is for the weapon systems. Shield tanking and armor tanking are fairly easy to sustain if your not using your cap for weapon systems. Now is the goal to increase the cap available for tanking or to keep weapon systems operating.

If the goal is to increase the time that weapons can fire, then increase the bonus to controlled bursts from 5% to 10%. That way your not making the ships that do not use cap for weapons systems more uber. If you do the across the board cap increase, then those ships that use cap-less weapons will have much more cap to put into tanking. It would be unbalacing to have some ships get a tank boost while other just get enough to keep thier weapons going. In some cases the tank boost will off-set the weapons sustainability and we are right back where we started, out of cap for weapons before the battle is over.

As a side note. Amarr has problems with cap and fitting for energy turrets. Can we get the cap use for energy turrets removed and a cap recharge bonus for the ship instead? It would be ok if amarr ships sucked cap like no tomorrow if, and this is a big if, the ships had an hugh bonus to recharge to help them sustain it. 20% recharge bonus per skill level works out to being about the same as a 10% per level cap reduction use of turrets.

I tossed that in since Tux actually seems to be reading this thread.

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Originally by: Old Geeza

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Originally by: Ihar Enda

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Fixing the cap problem should be done mostly by changing the controlled bursts skill to a much higher bonus, as just boosting cap / injectors may lead to some unbreakable tanks...

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*sigh*

Unbreakable tanks would only occur if the cap recharge were to stay the same. By increasing the cap recharge by the same amount as the capacitor itself, you would still regen exactly the same cap per second.

It astonishes me that people still can't grasp this simple fact.

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Originally by: FraXy

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Edited by: FraXy on 15/11/2006 13:00:02

Originally by: Radioactive Babe

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Originally by: FraXy

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Any chance to look over gallente efficiency bonus?

The Eos tank and ****ation tank doesn`t even come close to matching and the Eos can`t fit a plate without going either single-rep or 2 hardeners and both alternatives will gimp overall tankability.

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Eos gets faster cap recharge time, and with shield stats like this: 3000 with 0, 60, 85, 60 as opposed to 2625 with 0, 90, 70, 20 on the d amnation you could nearly shield tank also more drone space and decent command ship bonuses (5% damage and 7.5% armour repair amount per level) as opposed to 10% less cap use for medium turrets and 5% armour resists (which makes NO difference when ship is active tanked)

Basically you want higher resists to make your much better ship a solopwnmobile


On topic: dont give more cap to caldari missle boats or minnie ships, they would remain overpowered as they would tank longer so the gallente and amarr ships will still run out of cap.

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Try to fly a Blaster-Eos.

7x Blasters, Mwd, 20k and 2 reppers eats a ton of cap.

Resists are so-so and reppers are decent, but the Eos tank compared to a ****ation tank is not even close. I`m not saying Eos should tank just as well, but atm i think ****ation got a tanking efficiency around 2x on the Eos. And ****ation tanks Hybrid guns better

The smaller ships, especially blasterboats will be running short with increase HP = increased fighting time which leads to ships that rely on cap sticks (pretty much every cruiser/BC needs them to run tank along with scrambling, AB/Mwd and webber) running short on ammo and cap sticks.

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Originally by: Taketa De

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Haven't read the whole thread, mainly just Tuxs comment (it's 5am here ), but in short my opinion is: Boosting cap but not cap recharge is just an illusionary help, because it will still shift the balance of power towards non cap using weapon systems.
Increasing cap recharge and cap as well is good for cap using weapons but is BAD for those that don't becaues it makes tankers even better.

Personally I think Lasers and Hybrinds should just have their cap consumption lowered, instead of having the capacitor increased. That way it only "boosts" those ships that need it and where they need it and avoids all the other balancing nightmares that would happen.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

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yes. now lets try and make this a bit more complex:

ship A uses lasers or hybrids
ship B uses projectiles, missiles or drones

you increase max cap (and the recharge time) 50% on all ships

ship A now has 50% more cap to run its tank AND ITS GUNS
ship B now has 50% more cap to run its tank

ship A is just as good now as it was before cap and hp increase
ship B now has more cap to tank -> can try and use a stronger/more cap-intensive tank or drop a capmod.


it's pretty obvious that ships which dont have to use cap for their weapons would benefit a lot more more from a 50% cap increase across all ships.

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Originally by: ALPHA12125

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

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yes. now lets try and make this a bit more complex:

ship A uses lasers or hybrids
ship B uses projectiles, missiles or drones

you increase max cap (and the recharge time) 50% on all ships

ship A now has 50% more cap to run its tank AND ITS GUNS
ship B now has 50% more cap to run its tank

ship A is just as good now as it was before cap and hp increase
ship B now has more cap to tank -> can try and use a stronger/more cap-intensive tank or drop a capmod.


it's pretty obvious that ships which dont have to use cap for their weapons would benefit a lot more more from a 50% cap increase across all ships.

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that means that he can sustain the tank and the agressor doesnt do enough damage. usually if i loose a fight i dont have 0% cap left but more like 30-40% cap. unlike those **** nosboat :)

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Originally by: Noluck Ned

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*Notify* Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for the gatekeeper to respawn

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.

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Originally by: MrRookie

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Ships that don't use cap for their wepons already have less cap. Amarr ships as an example will gain more cap than caldari ships from the %buffer.

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Originally by: ALPHA12125

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that means that he can sustain the tank and the agressor doesnt do enough damage. usually if i loose a fight i dont have 0% cap left but more like 30-40% cap. unlike those **** nosboat :)

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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^agreed^

not to mention with a 50% increase to cap recharge times
cap rechargers ( even more if they are boosted a little)
will give more Cap/sec than they do now

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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edit:
also have a look at the current stats. the difference in total cap/cap recharge between ships using lasers/hybrids to those using cap free weapons isnt that big in many cases ... the difference in cap used to fire is.

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

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yes. now lets try and make this a bit more complex:

ship A uses lasers or hybrids
ship B uses projectiles, missiles or drones

you increase max cap (and the recharge time) 50% on all ships

ship A now has 50% more cap to run its tank AND ITS GUNS
ship B now has 50% more cap to run its tank

ship A is just as good now as it was before cap and hp increase
ship B now has more cap to tank -> can try and use a stronger/more cap-intensive tank or drop a capmod.


it's pretty obvious that ships which dont have to use cap for their weapons would benefit a lot more more from a 50% cap increase across all ships.

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Ship B also has to tank 50% longer because ship A can fire 50% longer.

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Ship B also has to tank 50% longer because ship A can fire 50% longer. Increasing hp and cap by the same amount changes nothing to the result(while keeping recharge rates the same that is).

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Ship B also has to tank 50% longer because ship A can fire 50% longer.

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that is assuming that ship B does not fire back. if B fires back than A has to use its 50% cap boost to tank and fire, not just to fire.

and most ships which depend on cap to fire do not have that much better cap/recharge than others.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.

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Originally by: Pinky Denmark

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if he doesn't reduce fitting requirements it might be because they play a role vs the hopefully upcoming anti-nos thing that might or might not come in a late kali build...

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Originally by: Jaded

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Originally by: Tuxford

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There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.

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And if the balance was off before, this patch sure makes it worse.

Cap is life. What advantage does a harbinger offer over hurricane (archetypes; no need to nerf the hur) to make up for nearly twice the drain..?

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Originally by: Kamikaaazi

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Originally by: Waragha

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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The only change is the hitpoint boost. Any consequences of it should be easy for you to figure out.

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It ruins the balance?

Id like to know the big picture as well tbh.

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The balance before the change was questionable for everyone except caldari and gallente. Now after the change, some minmatar ships become better than the gallente ones in the same class. The Amarr ships will suffer the same problems as gallente with struggling for cap, while minmatar got good and caldari went from good to best (not best for solo though, they never will be).

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I like cruisers so i will give some comments on that.
Caldari = Still good, ECM Caracal might have been nerfed. WIth the new HAMs the caracal might be very sick (havent checked fittings etc, don't flame me :p) BB seems to be buffed?
Amarr = still crap, even more so now
Gallente = Vexor, possibly better unless drone killing is really as viable now as they say on test
Thorax = brick of capdeathness :)
Minmatar = Stabber, still good tho possibly nerfed alot for 1v1 because of its damage output.
Ruppy, im not really sure. It allways has had a very good tank and been a top level cruiser. I think that with the other races cap issues its a buff.

So what happened, Amarr cruisers still suck (****). Vexor is still good and thorax went from good to useless, Caldari recieved buffs. Minmatar im not quite sure of..

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what buffs for caldari? Have you ever looked at ecm cap needs? Also BB-s are getting nerfed real badly on test server. EW ships dont have their former ecm strenghts even with the new bonuses.

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Ship B also has to tank 50% longer because ship A can fire 50% longer.

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that is assuming that ship B does not fire back. if B fires back than A has to use its 50% cap boost to tank and fire, not just to fire.

and most ships which depend on cap to fire do not have that much better cap/recharge than others.

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no that's not true...
if you increase total cap and total hp by 50%, the end result does not change compared to before the change. The only thing that would change is how long the fight takes.
Yes, you have to shoot longer, but 50% extra cap gives 50% longer time before cap runs out. But, you also have to tank longer and again 50% extra cap just gives you 50% longer time before your cap is gone.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Originally by: Jaded

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Originally by: Goumindong

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...

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Hmm.. Would have preferred to have the harbinger boosted instead of the others nerfed, but I'm not too upset about the bc nerf.

My drake will still rock at level 3 missions, and the amarr ship may actually have a role now -- even if i trust it still sucks at 1v1.

GJ Tux, have a look at the other ship classes as well, please. :)

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TBH imo, the hurricane was too powerfull, so was the drake. both could fit a pretty strong tank and dish out respectable dps.
Now I know i'll be hunted down and killed by just about every minmatar for this , but my main concern is to have balance, it just wouldn't be fun to fly a ship that I know is overpowered (yes I am minnie specced).

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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if you increase total cap and total hp by 50%, the end result does not change compared to before the change. The only thing that would change is how long the fight takes.
Yes, you have to shoot longer, but 50% extra cap gives 50% longer time before cap runs out. But, you also have to tank longer and again 50% extra cap just gives you 50% longer time before your cap is gone.

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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...

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well somehow i managed to fubar my earlier attempt to reply here. so have this instead:

1. apply hp-boost to all ships
2. oh noes! the ships that actually have to use cap to fire their guns are at a disadvantage. something must be done to boost those ships. (not sure if tux understood why exactly people complained there)
3. apply cap-boost to all ships (hint: this is where things go wrong)
4. now the ships that use cap for their weapons can fight longer again so this problem is solved
5. oh noes! the ships that dont use cap to for their weapons can tank longer now. back to square one.

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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yes its the same percentage boost for all ships. however thats not the problem. the problem lies with the disadvantage for laser/hybrid users that was introduced with the hp-boost. there was no cap-disadvantage for projectile, missile or drone users and no need to boost the cap of those ships. the original plan was to make fights last longer with a greater hp-buffer and not to improve tanking capabilities.

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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a far better approach:
1. boost hp of all ships
2. boost cap depending on how much cap each ship is using (or reduce capneed of turrets)
3. reduce ammo size and maybe boost drone hp
result: all ships can fire longer, all ships get an increased hp-buffer, no ship gets any tanking adavantages

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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yes they tank longer, how much longer? about the same as the cap increase, about 50% longer, but then cap-using ships also shoot and tank 50%.

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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Of course a ship that doesn't use cap for guns is at an advantage in both cases. adding total cap doesn't change anything in that respect.

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Originally by: Reatu Krentor

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It doesn't improve tanking abilities, all it does is prolong how long you can run cap-using modules for everyone. The tank of AC-pest doesn't suddenly become better just because it can run longer, after all that geddon that's shooting it is shooting longer as well.

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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^agreed^

not to mention with a 50% increase to cap recharge times
cap rechargers ( even more if they are boosted a little)
will give more Cap/sec than they do now

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Cap Rechargers after this change will give the exact same cap/second that they do now and there has been absolutely no talk of boosting cap recharge modules.

And, as has been said, the ships with 'higher capacitor' almost always have identical recharge rates, and only a few hundred(if that) extra capacitor, while their weapons drain a lot of cap, more than nullifying that 'cap advantage'.

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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Edited by: Flabida jaba on 17/11/2006 05:34:17

Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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^agreed^

not to mention with a 50% increase to cap recharge times
cap rechargers ( even more if they are boosted a little)
will give more Cap/sec than they do now

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Cap Rechargers after this change will give the exact same cap/second that they do now and there has been absolutely no talk of boosting cap recharge modules.

And, as has been said, the ships with 'higher capacitor' almost always have identical recharge rates, and only a few hundred(if that) extra capacitor, while their weapons drain a lot of cap, more than nullifying that 'cap advantage'.

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actually this is untrue....yes there has been no mention of boosting cap recharges
how ever...if your cap recharge time was 500 seconds a 20% bonus to that recharge time
gives you a 400 second recharge time. *net gain 100 sec*

boost the original recharge rate by 50% gives you a 750 sec rechrge rate and a 20% redution of that time = 600 *150 sec net gain*

thus even if cap rechargers remain unchanged....bigger cap and longer recharge rate's
effectively increase the efficientcy of cap rechargers in terms of the Cap/sec they provide.......Any clearer?

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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with a 50% across the board increase to cap/recharge: missle boats will theorecticly be able to tank 50% longer..but hybrid/laser boats will be able to shoot 50% longer so the balance will remain as it is now between the two types of ship (my original post not withstanding)

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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with a 50% across the board increase to cap/recharge: missle boats will theorecticly be able to tank 50% longer..but hybrid/laser boats will be able to shoot 50% longer so the balance will remain as it is now between the two types of ship (my original post not withstanding)

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*sighs* No. Again.

Ship A uses projectiles.
Ship B uses Lasers.

Increase cap of both ship A and ship B by 50%.

Ship A now has 50% more cap to tank with.

Ship B now has 25% more cap to shoot with, 25% more cap to tank with.

If both ships had lasted 100 seconds previously, now:

Ship A lasts 150 seconds.
Ship B lasts 125 seconds.

And this is why the blanket cap boost doesn't work.

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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with a 50% across the board increase to cap/recharge: missle boats will theorecticly be able to tank 50% longer..but hybrid/laser boats will be able to shoot 50% longer so the balance will remain as it is now between the two types of ship (my original post not withstanding)

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*sighs* No. Again.

Ship A uses projectiles.
Ship B uses Lasers.

Increase cap of both ship A and ship B by 50%.

Ship A now has 50% more cap to tank with.

Ship B now has 25% more cap to shoot with, 25% more cap to tank with.

If both ships had lasted 100 seconds previously, now:

Ship A lasts 150 seconds.
Ship B lasts 125 seconds.

And this is why the blanket cap boost doesn't work.

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Originally by: Flabida jaba

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i stand corrected!
my assumtion on peak recharge is wrong you are correct

as is your assumption above
however cap using ships start with a bigger cap pool to compensate for this extra draw on there capacitor so % comparisins wont work for this analisis.
150% cap to tank may equate to 1 extra minuite for a low cap ship,while 25% to tank and shoot might also equal 1 extra minute for a high cap ship

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Ship A lasts 100 seconds pre kali
Ship B lasts 100 seconds pre kali

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 17/11/2006 09:14:31

Originally by: Goumindong

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Ship A lasts 100 seconds pre kali
Ship B lasts 100 seconds pre kali

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The problem is that exactly this is not the case.

As said, take a geddon vs a typhoon.

The cap bonus of the geddon vs the typhoon is spent in 10 seconds weaponfire.
The higher cap regeneration cancels at peak recharge not even 10% of the weapon capdrain.

Of cource, the geddon also does more base dps than the typhoon, so it should have a disadvantage. But there are numerous other ships where this is not the case, for example maller vs rupture or prophecy vs cyclone.

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