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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:31:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
***pattern clarc saves up for myrmidon bpo***
I'm not even gunna pretend like its not awesome.
But the best tank has to go to the drake..
10k shields at 70-80% resists WTF?
yes probably the best tanker is drake, expeciall with the huge passive config... (at least is my fav one)
but i'm speaking about (general) defence... consider that drake have to use both high and low for its passive
myrm with "same" slots can fit a good damp+tank setup making it imo the best in defence bc (not to say that the dps will be similar to prenerf gank hurr)
drake can try something similar but will end with similar results in ew and worse tank... also it will sacrifice a lot of its dps
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:32:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
You are obviously 100% clueless. Have you ever tried to pop a high skilled Domi pilot's Ogre II's?
Yes and it's easy.
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Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:33:00 -
[93]
Watching the caldari pilots in this thread kinda reminds me of those old road runner cartoons. The coyote realises hes mid-air, off the side of a cliff, and he claws at the air all he can to try to get back on the cliff. ----
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:36:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 22/11/2006 04:07:41 here a little graph comparsion of old prenrf hurricane vs new postboost myrm
(hoping numbers are right :P)
graph1 (gank)
graph2 (hurr gank vs myrm tank)
this is quite interesting as it compare the old and clearly overpowered hurricane with its huge dps (2 ship bonuses and 3 damage mods) against a myrmidon with 1 ship bonus and no damage mods... i have to add the myrm have also a tank bonus and 1 more mid slot?
to get hurricane nerfed cause high dps: 3 page of whinage to get drake nerfed cause big tank and good damage: 5 page of whinage to get the myrmidon boosted to best dps and defence: priceless
You're conveniently ignoring a pretty critical difference. The myrmidons in your graph can't fit any sort of decent tank at all. The hurricane can fit a nice tank because of the comically low grid costs of autocannons. So if the hurricane can tank and gank at the same time, why should its gank come anywhere near a ship that can't?
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:38:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia People ***** and moan about god-like setups that they can't beat, yet they refuse to acknowledge the fact that you will NEVER FIGHT SUCH A SETUP IN PVP. Unless you're some honor-bound guy who refuses to warp away, you're never going to lose to those 'overpowered' Drakes. Setup a real pvp Drake, and you'll suddenly find that uber ship isn't very uber, and turn those resists into missile velocity, or whatever, and you'll find that while dealing heayv DPS up cloe, the Drake goes down like lead in water.
Bull****. There is plenty of room in PvP for ships that don't have any tackling gear.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:52:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 22/11/2006 04:54:19 difference for similar size weapons is around 250pg... not few but not even that much considering that you have around 750pg to fit tank and that you can eventually fit a RCU instead of a damage mods... (as in the graph dps of prenerf hurr + 3 dmg mods is similar to myrm with 0 dmg mods)
not to say, that you can fit 3 damps in mid that is alredy a veeery good defence
and you have also a tank mod to take in account... so i will not say that myrm tank is crap and hurr tank is god...
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.22 05:16:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia People ***** and moan about god-like setups that they can't beat, yet they refuse to acknowledge the fact that you will NEVER FIGHT SUCH A SETUP IN PVP. Unless you're some honor-bound guy who refuses to warp away, you're never going to lose to those 'overpowered' Drakes. Setup a real pvp Drake, and you'll suddenly find that uber ship isn't very uber, and turn those resists into missile velocity, or whatever, and you'll find that while dealing heayv DPS up cloe, the Drake goes down like lead in water.
Bull****. There is plenty of room in PvP for ships that don't have any tackling gear.
QTF, and before the Drake nerf I couldnt beat it with a Myrmidon fitted with neutron blasters, passive shield + active armor tank, not to mention my maxxed skills in gunnery and cruiser equipment on top of the +5% dmg implant and +5% dmg to med blasters implant in a fight starting at 15km.. The drake nerf should have been with the tank not the DPS but a nerf was definetly needed.
Dont even bother to fit a NOS setup on myrmidon, NOS is obsolete after KALI, you are better off with ACs/Arties and a passive shield tank (despite the useless rep bonus), 1-2 neutz in the mix would also guarantee that you will win against any Laser or Blaster boat! KALI 4TW or what? NOT!..
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Jebidus Skari
Amarr Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.11.22 07:27:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Kunming The drake nerf should have been with the tank not the DPS but a nerf was definetly needed.
Just quoting the important part. Maybe one day we'll see a good decision with balance but not now it seems.
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Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.22 07:31:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Matrix Aran Watching the caldari pilots in this thread kinda reminds me of those old road runner cartoons. The coyote realises hes mid-air, off the side of a cliff, and he claws at the air all he can to try to get back on the cliff.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! My Character Stats |
MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.22 07:35:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Can you give the Hurricane back its 7 turrets please? This is getting ridiculous.
jim, stop being RP and talk **** for matar - u still know that hurricane is much better than myrmidon.
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 07:55:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 08:00:29
Originally by: MECTO
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Can you give the Hurricane back its 7 turrets please? This is getting ridiculous.
jim, stop being RP and talk **** for matar - u still know that hurricane is much better than myrmidon.
It is? So what would you suggest for combat advice when facing one? You need to get within 10 km to use tech 1 nos, so you get webbed. He sends his drones on you. You try to take out heavy Ogre II's which he constantly scoops and deploys again for invulnerability while also hitting you with null from 6 guns. You can try to use your web to stop his drones from reaching his ship, but that means you cant web the Myrmidon, which means he can dictate range and come right up to you and scoop the drones anyway.
I would try to fight it using barrage because of its extra range, and that means fighting in falloff with very poor damage output, and it also means you cant use nos. All while firing at a cap injected tank with tanking bonuses, and drones with hp and damage bonuses as well.
But the thing is, its pointless to discuss these things in a forum full of gallente players. Nobody wants a balanced game. The arguments is always the same. 850 dps is fair because you can destroy my drones. So im not going to bother. The decisions are made and there is nothing we can do now.
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Heelay Ashrum
Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.22 08:56:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 22/11/2006 08:57:01
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 22/11/2006 04:07:41 here a little graph comparsion of old prenrf hurricane vs new postboost myrm
(hoping numbers are right :P)
graph1 (gank)
graph2 (hurr gank vs myrm tank)
this is quite interesting as it compare the old and clearly overpowered hurricane with its huge dps (2 ship bonuses and 3 damage mods) against a myrmidon with 1 ship bonus and no damage mods... i have to add the myrm have also a tank bonus and 1 more mid slot?
to get hurricane nerfed cause high dps: 3 page of whinage to get drake nerfed cause big tank and good damage: 5 page of whinage to get the myrmidon boosted to best dps and defence: priceless
You're conveniently ignoring a pretty critical difference. The myrmidons in your graph can't fit any sort of decent tank at all. The hurricane can fit a nice tank because of the comically low grid costs of autocannons. So if the hurricane can tank and gank at the same time, why should its gank come anywhere near a ship that can't?
The point is thill another .. in a "hurrican vs myrmidon" only an idiot hurrican pilot will shot at myr ( if the minnnie pilot do that he deserve to die :) ). In real fight a hurrican pilot should shoot first drones, so adjust this graph considering one drone poped every 5 secs ( btw u dont need 5 secs to killa single drone )....
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Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:18:00 -
[103]
If possible could we also see an HP graph over time too.
Face it having your guns blow up would suck wouldnt it?
Thats what drone users face every time. My Character Stats |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:19:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Protunia If possible could we also see an HP graph over time too.
Face it having your guns blow up would suck wouldnt it?
Thats what drone users face every time.
So you want the advantages of drone ships but not the disadvantages then? Roger that.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:36:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Protunia on 22/11/2006 10:40:31 Sure I'll take em, But I dont want to see people whining about drone damage when its not constant like some other damage types are.
My drones tend to get in some stuck state at times where they dont even hit the **** target. On top of that they have to FLY to the target then chase the target if it WMDs.
Do I think having more guns and armor is better??? I dont know I only have flown gallente. But I am sure there are some advantages to having a constant rate of damage rather than drones. I have used missles and they never seem to get stuck on there way to the target. My guns seems to fire flawlessly all the time except when they are reloading.
Question is would all the missle/gun users out there like to have their guns/missles over heat and become useless??
The myr will have 5 heavies AND THATS IT! As they are destroyed the DPS rate continues to go down, down, down..... How would you feel the DPS for your gun/missle boats were cut in half if you fired so many rounds out of them?? Or perhaps they just stopped working and you have to go BUY(FInd) more of them?? My Character Stats |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:41:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 10:43:49
Originally by: Protunia
The myr will have 5 heavies AND THATS IT! As they are destroyed the DPS rate continues to go down, down, down..... Hows you feel the DPS for your gun/missle boats were cut in half if you fired so my rounds out of them?? Or perhaps they just stopped working and you have to go BUY(FInd) more of them??
Originally by: Jim McGregor So you want the advantages of drone ships but not the disadvantages then? Roger that.
Edit: Each Ogre II will have more than 1000 armor hp on a myrmidon btw. How much hp does a remote repairer repair btw? Im thinking of putting in 6 of them on a myrmidon.
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Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:47:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Protunia on 22/11/2006 10:51:06 Your avoiding the questions :) by asking more questions.
The truth is you would not like it if you guns over heated or just stopped working.
Now when I do start to get into other races ships I might find out having no drones to be much easier than dealing with them.
So do more people use drone boats in PVP or gun/missle boats?
EDIT: Suppose you had to fit guns/missles repairers ;)
And how many people out there are going to use OGRE II's in normal PvP??? My Character Stats |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:00:00 -
[108]
While your busy pointing out the negatives of drones don't forget there positives, such as they keep shooting a target even if the ship is jammed. I'd love my turrets to do that
Maybe have a TD only affect 1 turret per module...
And when the Myr had the 5 turrets and misc slots I did think about a remote rep, but targetting the drone in time to rep it (keeping target ship + 5 drones targets, especially if scooping and deploying isn't easy).
This ship can fit 10 medium drones, 5 lights and have damage about the same as a Hurricane and Harbinger but they have to use 2x bonuses to get there damage. If it wasn't for AC's low fitting to fit a big tank you would see a lot more whining about it.
A 2x T2 rep on this ship with a 2x EANM + DC tank will rep roughly: 240 DPS from Hybrids (also the average) up from 175 200 DPS from Proj's up from 145 300 DPS from Lasers up from 215 175 DPS from lowest resit (aka drones/missiles) up from 125
Removing 200 to 300 DPS compared to 150 to 200 dps is a big difference when the HP boost allows time for you to rep. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:07:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 11:10:53
Originally by: Protunia
The truth is you would not like it if you guns over heated or just stopped working.
Now when I do start to get into other races ships I might find out having no drones to be much easier than dealing with them.
So do more people use drone boats in PVP or gun/missle boats?
EDIT: Suppose you had to fit guns/missles repairers ;)
And how many people out there are going to use OGRE II's in normal PvP???
OK, I was thinking of quoting myself for the 3:rd time, but ill try to explain what I mean instead. Yes, drones have a disadvantage. They can be destroyed. The advantage of using drones are that you get all those high slots free for nos, repairers or whatever you want. Non-drone ships have guns or missiles in most of those slots. Always. They have to use the slots to do damage. Drone ships dont.
What you have here is a ship with 5 Ogre II, each one having more than 1000 hitpoints, dealing about 450 dps and then 6 nos on top of it to nos the hell out of the opponent so he cant EVER break your tank even with weapons that doesnt use cap. You also have 5 medium slots, so you could potentially fit 2 cap injectors after the essential MWD/webber/disruptor stuff. And you get +37.5% to repair amount as well. You think your tank will have problems?
To prevent drones from getting destroyed, you can scoop/deploy them any number of times, as soon as their shield is gone. How many dominix do you know that gets killed because the opponent manage to kill their drones? It just doesnt happen because their cap is gone so quickly, and then they cant tank anymore. And this ship is exacly like it. Its a pwnmobile just like the Dominix. You would think ccp would learn from earlier mistakes, but then again, I guess it wasnt a mistake to make Domi that good. Its "balanced".
This discussion is a waste of time though. I know you dont agree, and no gallente player will, because of course they want a good ship just like everybody else. I understand that. Im just disappointed in ccp for not creating balance. But its pointless to whine, so I dont know what im doing here... bored I guess. Going to stop posting in this thread now...
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Pepperami
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:17:00 -
[110]
Jim's my hero.
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Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:35:00 -
[111]
This ship is now better than the Ferox in Every way.
Dont get me wrong im happy you got a ship you can use i would just like to see the ferox get some much needed help Speshly now the drake takes its place as the Mission runner BC.
Could anyone tell me a Ferox set up that coule even come close to scratching this ship?
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Luke Pubcrawler
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:55:00 -
[112]
As a Gallente who can fly all 4 new BC I have to admit the drone bay boost to the Myrmidon is welcome -makes it a genuine drone boat. Not sure it needed a turret boost and a drone bay boost tho. Escpecially after the nerfs to hurricane and drake.
CCP have, like many developers a tendency to over nerf, they never seem to understand that smaller, changes might have the impact they desire. If the Myrmidon stays as it is then give the Drake back a launcher but not rof (or rof but not launcher) and (maybe) give the hurricane back it turret slot (or as I plan to fly it an extra 25m of drone bay)
Then you would have 4 BCs that all races were at least moderately happy with
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Akiman
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:58:00 -
[113]
whoa!!! all those moanings just for 25 m3? what will i put there? drone titan? only 1 more heavy thats all no more no less ...geez man...get a grip...stop saying now myrmidon is teh uber awesomeness...
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:06:00 -
[114]
I do wish people would stop saying "Mryrmidon with 5 Ogre II s and blasters out DPSs everything!". Its just not a set up that works.
Firstly, you'd have to be an absolute moron to fly the Myrmidon with a full flight of heavies and no spares. Ogres have a few thousand HP, cruiser sig and crappy resists. Most BCs do, what, 400 ish DPS? That means, per drone, it takes maybe 10 seconds to kill one. Now if you had to lose 20% of your DPS every 10 seconds, do you think you'd win? It'd be like fighting with no spare ammo- sure your DPS rocks, but it isn't going to last a whole fight. With the new 50% longer battles, you'll have no problem popping each one at a leisurely pace, while the Myrmidon hovers around ineffectualy.
If, however, you replace the absurd concept of 5 heavies and no spares with, lets say, 2 heavies and 8 mediums (3 + spares), you've got a whole different kettle of fish. Your DPS is now, magically, alot lower. I'd love to see someone bring up a graph to see how much lower- but its lower. However, like this, you have spare- people won't neccessarily insta-pop your drones, because they wont know what spares you're packing. And if they do, then you'll end up with a lower DPS over the medium term (about equivalent to a vexor) but atleast you'll still be doing *some* DPS.
So quit pretending that a 5 Ogre Myrm is a wtfpwn mobile.
And Blasters? You've gotta be kidding me.
Firstly, the ship has no turret bonuses, so the incentive to fit blasters isn't there. While most blaster boats are inflated by thhe 25% damage bonus, this thing isn't. The Myrm is slow- its very slow. The odds of it making an effective Thorax-style MWD machine really arn't high. Futhermore its got a bonus to active tank- if you're being forced to fit dual MARs to take advantage of this bonus, you're not going to have any Cap spare for cap-eating guns, let alone MWD cripplage.
I can't see any reason why people would fit anything other than Projectiles on the Myrm, along with a healthy selection of Nos and Neut. -----------------------------------------------
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:24:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 11:10:53
Originally by: Protunia
The truth is you would not like it if you guns over heated or just stopped working.
Now when I do start to get into other races ships I might find out having no drones to be much easier than dealing with them.
So do more people use drone boats in PVP or gun/missle boats?
EDIT: Suppose you had to fit guns/missles repairers ;)
And how many people out there are going to use OGRE II's in normal PvP???
OK, I was thinking of quoting myself for the 3:rd time, but ill try to explain what I mean instead. Yes, drones have a disadvantage. They can be destroyed. The advantage of using drones are that you get all those high slots free for nos, repairers or whatever you want. Non-drone ships have guns or missiles in most of those slots. Always. They have to use the slots to do damage. Drone ships dont.
What you have here is a ship with 5 Ogre II, each one having more than 1000 hitpoints, dealing about 450 dps and then 6 nos on top of it to nos the hell out of the opponent so he cant EVER break your tank even with weapons that doesnt use cap. You also have 5 medium slots, so you could potentially fit 2 cap injectors after the essential MWD/webber/disruptor stuff. And you get +37.5% to repair amount as well. You think your tank will have problems?
To prevent drones from getting destroyed, you can scoop/deploy them any number of times, as soon as their shield is gone. How many dominix do you know that gets killed because the opponent manage to kill their drones? It just doesnt happen because their cap is gone so quickly, and then they cant tank anymore. And this ship is exacly like it. Its a pwnmobile just like the Dominix. You would think ccp would learn from earlier mistakes, but then again, I guess it wasnt a mistake to make Domi that good. Its "balanced".
This discussion is a waste of time though. I know you dont agree, and no gallente player will, because of course they want a good ship just like everybody else. I understand that. Im just disappointed in ccp for not creating balance. But its pointless to whine, so I dont know what im doing here... bored I guess. Going to stop posting in this thread now...
You keep comparing the Myr to a Domi- it's not a Domi! No backup drones when using heavies, no heavy nos with 25km range, etc. etc. etc.
The concept just does *not* scale down. The Myr is more like the Vexor than the Domi: similar cap, similar nos range, similar drone count. Wouldn't you agree that 5 drones is closer to 3 than to 14? Because a Domi can carry around 14 Heavies.
Because I said so...
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Radix Salvilines
Virtual Democracy Intergalactic Freelance Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:29:00 -
[116]
You guys remember the first topic when gallenteans were whinning that they got the worst bc of all and the Caldaris were saying "shut up its all balanced and nerfed because the devs think its right", or "stop whinning devs likes caldari the most", or etc...
The situation rolled over now. And Caldaris are Gallenteans now.
For me Drake was indeed overpowered as Myrmi was useless. Now its more balanced - its just some peoples that cant understand this fact that it was not okay then and it is now are whinning. If in testing it will come out that Gallente ships are to strong they will be nerfed - its 100%.
I understand that everyone here wants to have an uber ship for his race but hell -> State what you think about this, how to distribute power to balance all ships and stop whinning "they got more now!", "why we got nerfed?!", "CCP you sux, you have meda THEM a whinning button".
Make your posts constructive for gods sake.
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Lirt
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:42:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Lirt on 22/11/2006 12:44:40 Before some days: caldari, minmatar BC were good, gallente amarr not so good. Now: Caladari, mimatar are getting nerfed, gallente getting buffed (again) Makes me wonder which race CCP favors...
To the above poster: Ofc you find drake imbalanced as well as every other ship, but ofc you find gallente one perfectly balanced. How strange really......
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:12:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 22/11/2006 14:14:42
Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 22/11/2006 08:57:01
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 22/11/2006 04:07:41 here a little graph comparsion of old prenrf hurricane vs new postboost myrm
(hoping numbers are right :P)
graph1 (gank)
graph2 (hurr gank vs myrm tank)
this is quite interesting as it compare the old and clearly overpowered hurricane with its huge dps (2 ship bonuses and 3 damage mods) against a myrmidon with 1 ship bonus and no damage mods... i have to add the myrm have also a tank bonus and 1 more mid slot?
to get hurricane nerfed cause high dps: 3 page of whinage to get drake nerfed cause big tank and good damage: 5 page of whinage to get the myrmidon boosted to best dps and defence: priceless
You're conveniently ignoring a pretty critical difference. The myrmidons in your graph can't fit any sort of decent tank at all. The hurricane can fit a nice tank because of the comically low grid costs of autocannons. So if the hurricane can tank and gank at the same time, why should its gank come anywhere near a ship that can't?
The point is thill another .. in a "hurrican vs myrmidon" only an idiot hurrican pilot will shot at myr ( if the minnnie pilot do that he deserve to die :) ). In real fight a hurrican pilot should shoot first drones, so adjust this graph considering one drone poped every 5 secs ( btw u dont need 5 secs to killa single drone )....
in a gang situation it will be difficult that someone start to shot drones but anyway... in hurr vs myrm 3 damps and a bit of drone management can do wonders...
as said this ship pratically coa build a fit with good ew+tank+damage... this is not that different than the nerfed drake (that was considered overpowered by almost everyone) with the difference that myrm will have a worse tank but good dps, good ew and will be able to build more functional fittings
and also i can't explain how the dps of a ship was so good to need a nerf and a ship that reach same dps in tank config, have 1 more utility (ew) slot, have a tank bonus is not...
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Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:53:00 -
[119]
Funny part is what Myrmidon is now much better sniper than all other BC's...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:48:00 -
[120]
the problem is not dmg itself but the curve and other ships stats...
i agree with you that if proj will do more dps than hybrid ships no one will fly gallente but on the other hand if hybrid do more damage at all range and have not a severe drawback to balance that then no one will fly minnie...
cap can be and is a drawback but not severe to the point to justify higher dps from 0 to 500km as you have to consider that doing more damage you are also requiring to the defender to use more cap, so this is somewhat balanced...
in particular for this ship the balance is a bit "out of window" because not only it does extreme dps, but becaose it have also a tankbonus and veeeeeery good ew (damps) capability...
damps also mean that probably you are not going to get nosed and that you keep your drones alive whitout much trouble, "fixing" also the weak points supposed to balance the ship
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