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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 01:47:00 -
[1]
There is no point in flying a Megathron or Hyperion blaster ship in the upcoming patch. With the HP increase and the T2 ammo damage reduction both the Mega and the Hype can no longer do enough DPS quickly enough to kill another BS before it runs out of cap or is killed itself. This is assuming the engagement range is optimised for the blaster ship and starts somewhere around 15-20km.
The Megathron needs a dual rep tank to live even a minute or so against another T2 fitted BS. Due to CPU limitations, you're stuck with T2 Ions, and even with seven Ion IIs and Void you can't do enough DPS before your cap is dry and the target still remains. If you use a plated Neutron II setup with 7 guns, you still end up dead because you can't put out enough damage before your plate is gone.
The Hype's situation is no better. Since it lacks grid you can't fit 8 guns effectively with the same tank as the Mega, so there's no gain there, and you actually end up doing less DPS than a Mega since the Mega with the same tank and same number of guns has one more drone.
The Hyperion's problems are compounded even more by it's active tanking bonus. Active tanking is the LAST thing you want to do in Revelations (I liked Kali better, it's shorter to type). In order to get the most out of the active tanking bonus you need to fit two large reps, and that just isn't practical given the cap consumption and the cap requirements of the MWD and guns. A single heavy injector can't keep up with dual reps and eight guns, even if they're electrons. So this means that you need to kill the target before you run out of cap, but the guns simply don't do enough DPS to accomplish that.
I have tried all sorts of setups, with the focus being on maximum DPS: the largest guns with 3x magstab IIs in order to develope the highest DPS I could from the highest DPS ship in the game. No setup was ever enough to break a target's tank before I was dead. On the flipside, there is no tank setup that works that can kill a target before I run out of cap. I don't run out of cap charges, I run out of cap, unable to run my reps/guns with my hold still full of cap charges, the injector unable to keep up.
Well what about rigs? Rigs are generally pretty useless to improve the situation. Because the Mega is more CPU limited (extremely) adding a few grid rigs won't help much because you still can't add T2 reps or larger T2 guns due to the CPU limitations.
The Hype is a little better because adding two grid rigs allows you to fit some larger guns and using some of the extra CPU, but due to the rig nerfs you can no longer fit three grid rigs, and you won't be able to fit two T2 grid rigs due to calibration points, so a 10% grid improvement is all you're going to see from rigs.
All the other rigs are pretty much useless: it's not grid-efficient to fit damage rigs, armor rep or armor amount bonus rigs don't give you *enough* of a bonus to be effective, and their drawbacks to speed are really bad. Speed rigs are pointless when you're already reasonably fast enough to get into range.
Blasters are DPS ships, take that away and you take away their reason for being. Endurance setups don't work. Give us our DPS back. Heck, give us more DPS so we can compete with the larger tanks.
P.S.- Plated Abaddons work *awesome* with the new changes. Rejoice Amarr 
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:30:00 -
[2]
Just to give you an idea of what I'm using ship/skill wise: (this is on test with the new mirror)
Relevant skills:
engie/elec/mech/hull 5, weapon upgrades 5, adv. weapon upgrades 4, gal BS 4, drone interfacing 4, heavy drones 4, all support gun skills at 5 (rapid fire 5, sharpshooter 5 etc.) large blaster spec 4, all nav skills at 4 or 5 etc.
Basically besides drone interfacing at 5, T2 heavy drones and BS 5, I have pretty much maxed skills for a blaster pilot.
Setups: (every mod is T2 or best named, assume best of everything)
Megathron-
7x Ions, standard mids (mwd/web/scram/heavy injector), 2x large accom reps, EANM, DC, 3x Magstab IIs.
Results: cap death before able to kill opponent. Ships fought: Abaddon, Raven, Maelstrom, Typhoon, Rokh, Dominix.
7x Neutrons, standard mids w/ medium injector, large accom rep, 1600 plate, DC, EANM, 3x Magstab IIs.
Results: dead before cap death. Ships fought: Abaddon, Rokh, Raven, Maelstrom, Tempest.
7x Electrons, heavy diminishing nos, standard mids, 2x T2 large reps, kin/therm/exp hardeners, DC, EANM.
Results: Unable to break enemy tank, ran out of cap boosters, then died. Ships fought: Rokh, Raven, Dominix, Maelstrom, Tempest, Typhoon.
Hyperion-
8x Ions, standard mids (mwd/web/scram/eccm/heavy injector), T2 large armor rep, DC, EANM, 3x magstabs.
Varient: replaced DC with 1600 plate. Same results.
Results: died with about 40% cap. Ships fought: Abaddon, Rokh, Maelstrom, Raven, Dominix, Tempest.
8x Electrons, standard mids, 2x T2 large reps, kin/therm/exp hardeners, DC.
Results: unable to break enemy tank, ran out of cap charges, then died. Ships fought: Maelstrom, Rokh, Raven, Typhoon, Abaddon.
8x Neutrons, standard mids w/ medium injector (no grid to fit heavy), 1600 plate, EANM, DC, 3x magstabs.
Results: varied- either died with about half cap, or went cap dead, then died. Ships fought: Dominix, Raven, Abaddon, Maelstrom.
If someone has some better setups for the Hyperion (that still uses blasters) I'd like to see them. The main problem is that you can't active tank long enough to kill someone, and you don't do enough DPS to kill a single BS before they're through your passive tank. The longer you stay in a fight the worse it gets.
I've tried to design setups to kill targets before you run out of cap, but the tanks in Revelations are just too good and the ammo has been nerfed too much to be able to break a T2 tank before you're either dead or out of cap.
One additional note: blasterships are worthless for killing mission runners in deadspace. MWDs don't work there.
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:43:00 -
[3]
Awesome a new murder one thread!
Hmmmm dunno about that mate.. Was fecking around with a blaster Rohk with a uber resist passive tank and I was killing BS left and right at the FFA2 zone on sisi.. Only thing I couldn't kill was the Scorps as they had me jammed continuesly and another passive tanked Rohk.. Man those things are mean and I even have crap gunnery skill on my main.. 
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:50:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Awesome a new murder one thread!
Hmmmm dunno about that mate.. Was fecking around with a blaster Rohk with a uber resist passive tank and I was killing BS left and right at the FFA2 zone on sisi.. Only thing I couldn't kill was the Scorps as they had me jammed continuesly and another passive tanked Rohk.. Man those things are mean and I even have crap gunnery skill on my main..
Oh sweet! I see someone has found a working Hyperion setup then. All I need to do is not use a Hype and get a Rokh. I guess I'll revise my original post's title to be more specific: Blaster Hypes and Blasterthrons.
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:53:00 -
[5]
Well if your gonna make a blanket statement at least make sure they all suck.. 
But yeah I'm seeing blasterboats in general getting a minor buff after kal.. err revelations settles in a bit.. 
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order
The Sani Sabik
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:55:00 -
[6]
Fit a dmg rig, you will see that you are wrong.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Well if your gonna make a blanket statement at least make sure they all suck..
But yeah I'm seeing blasterboats in general getting a minor buff after kal.. err revelations settles in a bit..
No, you're right. I clarified a bit. TBH I don't see blaster ships getting a buff after Revelations 1. Frankly I don't see them getting buffed at all, and besides that after Rev1 it will just simply be too late anyway. I'm not going to wait another six months for them to possibly fix it. The opportunity is here to fix it now before it goes live. It won't be fixed.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 03:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Altai Saker
Fit a dmg rig, you will see that you are wrong.
Fit a damage rig to what? Explain to me *exactly* how 'fitting a damage rig' will help/change the situation. If you knew anything about rigs you wouldn't even have bothered telling me that.
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 04:03:00 -
[9]
True nuff and I was using 4x mag stab II on that BlasterRohk.. And if I had been able to mount some shield rigs.. Heheheee.. But for some reason rigs were diabled when I was on that time.. 
And murder my son.. You know good and well if you can get a topic past 40 pages of sensible debate the devs *might* consider it..
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Sadayiel
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.25 04:30:00 -
[10]
i use
high: 5x ions 3x electrons(tech2 void)
meds:webber/scram/Mwdap injector and Track comp2
(can use anything on 5th slot but this track comp gives you same track as mega with bs Lvl 4)
lows: 2x mag stabs2 2x EANM II 2x LArge repper 2
(well 1 tech2, 1 best named repper since i lack 0.34 pgrid to fit)
for rigs i mostly used 2x nanos pumps.
This setup allow you to mostly tank everything, only best gank ships may force you to perma run the 2x lar rep.
so far only 2 ships survived this setup a Rokh and a pure neutron B-thron (mostly due lack od drone usage from my part)
if wish can drop 1 ion and get 4x electrons for espare grid and fit some dmg rig (also remember that on sisi we play with lvl 3 skill for rigs, raise it and penalty from rig will decrease)
On a gang status the 5th slot it¦s a wonder you can fit Ecm, tracking or even painter based on your overall gang setup so you can maximize your efficiency.
Banana's 4tw - Xorus
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 04:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sadayiel
i use
high: 5x ions 3x electrons(tech2 void)
meds:webber/scram/Mwdap injector and Track comp2
(can use anything on 5th slot but this track comp gives you same track as mega with bs Lvl 4)
lows: 2x mag stabs2 2x EANM II 2x LArge repper 2
(well 1 tech2, 1 best named repper since i lack 0.34 pgrid to fit)
for rigs i mostly used 2x nanos pumps.
This setup allow you to mostly tank everything, only best gank ships may force you to perma run the 2x lar rep.
so far only 2 ships survived this setup a Rokh and a pure neutron B-thron (mostly due lack od drone usage from my part)
if wish can drop 1 ion and get 4x electrons for espare grid and fit some dmg rig (also remember that on sisi we play with lvl 3 skill for rigs, raise it and penalty from rig will decrease)
On a gang status the 5th slot it¦s a wonder you can fit Ecm, tracking or even painter based on your overall gang setup so you can maximize your efficiency.
Ya, I really don't see anything in your setup that is going to fix the problems with my above setups. You can't tank any more DPS than the above setups, and you arn't doing any more DPS either. As for the 5th mid, yes, it's a great addition, making the ship very flexible. If the ship was able to kill stuff, I might actually start thinking about what to use that 5th mid for.
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 04:58:00 -
[12]
ECCM mod! 
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.25 05:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
ECCM mod!
yes, every single ship needs to fit eccm! because ecm is not overpowered ^^
that said, i fought a nos scorp with 5 light drones yesterday. (yes you read that right, 5 light drones as only damage source). only reason i didn't lose was... he didn't bother to actually fit any kind of tank... so my 5 medium drones managed to chase him of.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 05:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
ECCM mod!
If you note in my original setups, that's what I was fitting, for lack of anything else to fit. I'd prefer to fit something useful in there instead of having to worry about being jammed every single combat, but of course ECCM it is...
Because I said so...
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:10:00 -
[15]
murder one, considering that CCP is making it rather clear that they want combat to last longer, which will make system tareting, and heat, doable in the future, it'd make no sense for there to be some sort of 'buff' to ships to keep them being able to wtfpwn someone in mere seconds like you can do now.
Yes blasterboats are getting nerfed, however in a small gang blasterships are still going to make short work of people. It makes sense that when they do a tanking buff, any situation where a person tries to simply tank you, that they'll win more often due to increased tanking. Not to sound like an old record, but fly with friends. I can't imagine too many changes are made with solo play in mind for an MMO.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 06:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
murder one, considering that CCP is making it rather clear that they want combat to last longer, which will make system tareting, and heat, doable in the future, it'd make no sense for there to be some sort of 'buff' to ships to keep them being able to wtfpwn someone in mere seconds like you can do now.
Yes blasterboats are getting nerfed, however in a small gang blasterships are still going to make short work of people. It makes sense that when they do a tanking buff, any situation where a person tries to simply tank you, that they'll win more often due to increased tanking. Not to sound like an old record, but fly with friends. I can't imagine too many changes are made with solo play in mind for an MMO.
I don't have three or four people at my beck and call to kill someone whenever I want. 90% or more of my kills are solo kills. I hunt, I find someone, I kill them. Whenever I drag around four or five people with me, everyone always logs/safespots/jumps out of the system the instant we're in local and comes back with a twelve person gang to fight.
And simply adding more people to the mix isn't the answer to make the Hype/Mega competitive. It needs to work 1v1, at close range. In it's operating range it needs to dominate. Not just simply kind of maybe sorta work ok, it needs to be outstanding. Right now it just does the opposite- fails miserably.
The only reason a blasterthron/hype works is because it can do more DPS than a target can tank, before the target can pop it/make it run out of cap. As soon as you reach that critical point where you can tank 100% of it's DPS, the Hype has lost, because now it's a war of attrition, and the Hype (and Mega) will always lose.
Frankly I'm sick of people telling me to 'get a few more people'. Every other ship works fine solo. Why can't the Mega/Hype?
Because I said so...
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Kaden Seer
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: murder one
It needs to work 1v1, at close range. In it's operating range it needs to dominate. Not just simply kind of maybe sorta work ok, it needs to be outstanding.
I totally agree with that, dude.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:16:00 -
[18]
Yeah I see your point but here's my spin.. if you can train Caldari bs to 4 and fit 8 mega blasters on the Rohk and still fit an uber resist passive tank ( a bit less uber if you mount eccm :P ) then why complain? The Rohk.. Blaster/Rail boat for the masses.. The Mega has been the blasterboat of choice for too long! 
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Yeah I see your point but here's my spin.. if you can train Caldari bs to 4 and fit 8 mega blasters on the Rohk and still fit an uber resist passive tank ( a bit less uber if you mount eccm :P ) then why complain? The Rohk.. Blaster/Rail boat for the masses.. The Mega has been the blasterboat of choice for too long!
Because it disgusts me to fly Caldari? I don't have any shield tanking skills and nor do I want to. I don't have Caldari BS trained up and nor do I want to. The Hype is the most useless piece of crap of all the new battleships. It's completely unworkable. Even the Abaddon has been fixed. It's brilliant now. Not only did we not get a new/improved blaster ship, our existing blaster ship is now ruined as well. GG CCP.
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:27:00 -
[20]
I feel your pain.. Guess I had the right idea to cross train for all races from the get go..
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Yeah I see your point but here's my spin.. if you can train Caldari bs to 4 and fit 8 mega blasters on the Rohk and still fit an uber resist passive tank ( a bit less uber if you mount eccm :P ) then why complain? The Rohk.. Blaster/Rail boat for the masses.. The Mega has been the blasterboat of choice for too long!
I don't want to ******* shield tank.
plus, what am i going to do with my +2.5mill in navigation on a rokh??
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 07:40:00 -
[22]
The blaster Rohk is a mwd boat only.. Those 2.5 mil in nav will pay huge rewards..
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 08:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
The blaster Rohk is a mwd boat only.. Those 2.5 mil in nav will pay huge rewards..
Not really. On a percentage basis the skills when applied to a Rokh will have the same results, but in an absolute sense, the gains are quite a bit less. Regardless, nav skills really arn't that important, as you can reach 20km+ with a Rokh using null and neutrons. IMO you really don't have to fit anything more than an afterburner. 
Because I said so...
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 09:05:00 -
[24]
Well if your warping in on a cov ops yeah.. Guess im taking the solo route for my reasoning and the sisi testing as everyone was faaaaar away from me when I warped in so I needed a mwd or otherwise I was just another target.. Even the uber passive tank fails when 4 or more Bs are locked and loaded on you.. Oh and one other thing.. if you get nossed with the blaster rohk you will die as soon as the hardners stop working.. Which is pretty quick if you had to mwd any respectable distance to the target as I had to do.. But if the target has no nos your gonna pwn.. so there is still some balance for players in the know.. and your in the know right?
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.25 09:10:00 -
[25]
Wanna see a blaster ship that's really broken? Take a look here. Or here.
Anyway, I agree with op.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.25 09:26:00 -
[26]
Yeah blasterboats in general need a bit of lovin after kal.. err rev1.. never denied that.. Im just having fun with the Rohk which needs no lovin.. a slight cuff to the head with the nerf bat maybe but meh.. every release has had one or more boats with an advantage.. Thats the nature of eve as ive noticed so far in my year and a half.. Uber ships come and then get nerfed only to be replaced with another uber ship.. yadda yadda yadda.. Enjoy the changes as they will last only so long after all..
KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat.. |
Thoris Levithar
Gallente
Gadget Factory
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Posted - 2006.11.25 10:30:00 -
[27]
I don't know much about PvP. But I have enough experience in PvE to know how to build ships which can fight for long times without running out of cap. Perhaps its exactly that what the devs want for revelations? To get players away from the "extreme gank" setups and back to more reasonable ships that can both tank and shoot for longer times?
I have tried the Hyperion on test, with pretty much a basic PvE setup. Didn't win either, but that was usually because the other players used lots of NOSes. And/Or ECM jammer(s). So, going by this perhaps the best thing would be to fit one or two NOS yourself, plus some ECCM. But mainly, if cap is a problem for you, then fit cap modules instead of damage mods!
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.25 10:54:00 -
[28]
You're wrong. Theres less reason to fly them but still plenty of reasons.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.25 11:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Thoris Levithar
I don't know much about PvP. But I have enough experience in PvE to know how to build ships which can fight for long times without running out of cap. Perhaps its exactly that what the devs want for revelations? To get players away from the "extreme gank" setups and back to more reasonable ships that can both tank and shoot for longer times?
I have tried the Hyperion on test, with pretty much a basic PvE setup. Didn't win either, but that was usually because the other players used lots of NOSes. And/Or ECM jammer(s). So, going by this perhaps the best thing would be to fit one or two NOS yourself, plus some ECCM. But mainly, if cap is a problem for you, then fit cap modules instead of damage mods!
LOL. Cap mods? PvE setups? You can't be serious...
Anyway, the point is that with the reduction in DPS due to the Void nerf and the increase in HP with Rev1 and the poor grid of the Hype really pushed the Hype and the Mega past the point of being usable.
Because I said so...
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.25 11:57:00 -
[30]
I have to disagree, I've been playing around with both ships on Sisi, both are awesome and different blaster boats, I do have maximum skills relating to blasterboats though, so I guess IĘm a little biasedą
With the former I can tank over 900 dps from Hybrids while dealing out over 850 from turrets and drones, it's an immensely tough nut to *****, and has space for EW.
With the latter, I deal even more DPS than my TQ setup, sufficient to destroy an Abaddon with barely a nick out of my armour (and more importantly not a single cap booster charge used), followed by warping over to a Raven, engaging, crashing to desktop, logging back in to find the Raven in a pod and my armour still above 70% (again, no cap charges used) - Cap really isn't that much of an issue if you manage it correctly.
If you feel you canĘt compete in Revelations with either ship they donĘt bother trying. You are however mistaken, and I will be using both (and my Blaster Dominix) with no problemsą
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- Office Linebacker -
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