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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:56:00 - [1] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 30/11/2006 05:03:56 Hi there! While buying a whole lot of inertial stabs to replace the the nanofibers modules on my (empire based) haulers I gave some tought to the lag caused by BMs. I only have one related question: Do BMs cause lag just because they exist? meaning... If I have a lot of bookmarks, when I jump from system to system, some queries get generated to update my right-click menu with that system's bookmarks? If that's so, I will delete all my base/gate BMs right away... keeping only the safe-spots (yeah, I have safe-spots in empire, don't ask why). EDIT: Found a similar thread here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=433851 There's the URL, since I didn't wanted to duplicate...however, my question about BM->LAG MECHANICS remains... if somebody knows the answer please reply.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:04:00 - [2] i deleted 5k instas yesterday, it felt goooooooooooooood. 1000% awesome guide to logging out
Phoenus Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:04:00 - [3] Edited by: Phoenus on 30/11/2006 05:04:10 Each Bookmark is a unique entry in a database - the more you have, yes - the more lag you will cause. (Edit: and I deleted around 30,000 across my accounts) [ 2006.08.16 20:49:06 ] (combat) Your Electron Blaster Cannon II barely scratches Dominix [NTEMS]<HELLH>(Dominix), causing 1908.4 damage.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Phoenus the more you have, yes - the more lag you will cause No BMs create lag when: a) being loaded by the client for display, i.e either: a1) when opening people and places a2) when using right click menu in space with BMs in showing up b) when copying Simply being there BMs cause no lag. =================================== Above comments are my personal views Originally by: Oveur Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Phoenus Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:14:00 - [5] Originally by: hydraSlav Originally by: Phoenus the more you have, yes - the more lag you will cause No BMs create lag when: a) being loaded by the client for display, i.e either: a1) when opening people and places a2) when using right click menu in space with BMs in showing up b) when copying Simply being there BMs cause no lag. So, by reading what you said there - you just agreed totally with me, that the more bookmarks you have, in your client - the more lag you will suffer. a) being loaded by the client for display, i.e either: a1) when opening people and places a2) when using right click menu in space with BMs in showing up ---> all of which happen faster if you have 200 in your client, rather than 20,000. [ 2006.08.16 20:49:06 ] (combat) Your Electron Blaster Cannon II barely scratches Dominix [NTEMS]<HELLH>(Dominix), causing 1908.4 damage.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:21:00 - [6] OP's question: "Do BMs cause lag just because they exist" The answer to that is: "No, they dont cause lag simply by existing. They only cause lag when queried (displayed/copied)" Your answer: "the more you have, yes - the more lag you will cause" is not true, cause simply "having them" does not cause lag. Indirectly, having more of them will cause more lag when you open them, but that was not the focus of the OP's question. =================================== Above comments are my personal views Originally by: Oveur Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:30:00 - [7] Yes, having a very big database can cause it to suffer poor performance. There are indexes to generate, and other maintenance tasks to be performed to keep it running smoothly. So yes, more BMs in the database can cause performance loss, or more accurately, steal resources for maintenance purposes. Even if you aren't using them. - Got grief?
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:40:00 - [8] Originally by: hydraSlav Originally by: Phoenus the more you have, yes - the more lag you will cause No BMs create lag when: a) being loaded by the client for display, i.e either: a1) when opening people and places a2) when using right click menu in space with BMs in showing up b) when copying Simply being there BMs cause no lag. test for ya open up people and places select places let it load then close places now jump through a few gates now open people and places select buddies or corp then close then jump though a few gates you should notice less lag during gate jumps when your peoples and places is closed on anything other than places if you have large amounts of BM's then by simply closing people and places while buddies is selected will save lots of lag Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:41:00 - [9] Thanks for the answers! So far we have that: BMs don't cause direct lag by just having them, but do cause an indirect lag by: 1) More entries on the DB == less performance. 2) When right-click or opening People and Places. So it does make sense that if I'm no longer using them, I should, voluntary, delete them.
Lisa Run	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:01:00 - [10] Edited by: Lisa Run on 30/11/2006 06:01:38 Originally by: Shameless Avenger Thanks for the answers! So far we have that: BMs don't cause direct lag by just having them, but do cause an indirect lag by: 1) More entries on the DB == less performance. 2) When right-click or opening People and Places. So it does make sense that if I'm no longer using them, I should, voluntary, delete them. Yes, think it has been said that the huge table sizes are also a problem for the ram sans (Those ultrafast solid state disks for xx thousand dollars per unit that CCP bought to extremely speed up database accesses. Although they have a large size, they got to their memory limits. At least the one, before they ordered another one.) ___________________________ ! Post under construction !
Raivotar Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:18:00 - [11] Just delete instaBM's. CCP didnt say it just for fun of it. ------------------------------------------------ I'm scissors. Nerf rocks. Paper is fine.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Raivotar Just delete instaBM's. CCP didnt say it just for fun of it. Done. Just the Safe-Spots remains. It was a rather liberating experience. I hope everybody does it to.
DETOVI Caldari Deep Space Keggers	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:54:00 - [13] ****in hell.... i been out-of-ogame for a solid month..... ill gladly delted (( my 2bils ortth of instas -- ZOMG)) but is this the re4ason i am experiencing 10+ minutes login time in EVE>><> help is appreciated... thx ! .
InnerDrive Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.30 07:02:00 - [14] Edited by: InnerDrive on 30/11/2006 07:02:08 Originally by: mazzilliu i deleted 5k instas yesterday, it felt goooooooooooooood. lol ur so owned, just wait a few weeks u will see ccp putting warp at 15 back and with the way u cant copy sets that easy anymore they will go like yarrrrrrrr!!! everyone deleting bms is gonna get owned by ccp mark my words! p
Gal'tashec Gallente Raptus Regaliter Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2006.11.30 07:05:00 - [15] Originally by: InnerDrive Edited by: InnerDrive on 30/11/2006 07:02:08 Originally by: mazzilliu i deleted 5k instas yesterday, it felt goooooooooooooood. lol ur so owned, just wait a few weeks u will see ccp putting warp at 15 back and with the way u cant copy sets that easy anymore they will go like yarrrrrrrr!!! everyone deleting bms is gonna get owned by ccp mark my words! p Look like CCP decided to delete some players bookmarks (all of them) .. mine sure arent there.. thought it may be uber-lag (takes 15minutes for me to loging after the patch) since not even the "Add Folder" and "Add Bookmark" buttons are displaying on the bottom of the Places-window. --- Author of A guide to buying bookmarks
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.11.30 07:34:00 - [16] The short answer is that YES, just having bookmarks causes lag. PERIOD. The long answer is that every time you switch states (jump, dock, etc) your bookmarks are hashed by the server to see if any of them apply to the system you are in. For every bookmark you have, there is a very small time delay while the server checks all your bookmarks to list the ones that work in this system into your context menu. If you have a few hundred the delay is basicly nothing. If you have a few thousands the delay gets noticable. If you have 50 thousand, the delay is noticable, and can comprimise gameplay. There is of course the normal delays when you right click (longer the more BMs you have IN THIS SYSTEM) and the P&P when the DB has to push a list of all your BMs. ______________________________________________ Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all The details of our ending
Thut'ankh Amon Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:15:00 - [17] Originally by: InnerDrive Edited by: InnerDrive on 30/11/2006 07:02:08 Originally by: mazzilliu i deleted 5k instas yesterday, it felt goooooooooooooood. lol ur so owned, just wait a few weeks u will see ccp putting warp at 15 back and with the way u cant copy sets that easy anymore they will go like yarrrrrrrr!!! everyone deleting bms is gonna get owned by ccp mark my words! p and then they will move all gates and stations 15km to the right and you will land 15km from gate on your instas :D anyway ive deleted like 5k of instas and my P&P suddenly load instantly... also no login lag Originally by: Noluck Ned Notify Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for overlord to respawn
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:23:00 - [18] Originally by: hydraSlav OP's question: "Do BMs cause lag just because they exist" The answer to that is: "No, they dont cause lag simply by existing. They only cause lag when queried (displayed/copied)" Your answer: "the more you have, yes - the more lag you will cause" is not true, cause simply "having them" does not cause lag. Actually they do cause lag by "existing", apparently bookmarks are transported across nodes with the players, which is what was causing all the lag. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Epidemis	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:27:00 - [19] Anyone else noticed how you log in 10 times faster post kali? (with your account, not char)

Ginger.	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:17:00 - [20] Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul.

Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:22:00 - [21] Originally by: InnerDrive Edited by: InnerDrive on 30/11/2006 07:02:08 Originally by: mazzilliu i deleted 5k instas yesterday, it felt goooooooooooooood. lol ur so owned, just wait a few weeks u will see ccp putting warp at 15 back and with the way u cant copy sets that easy anymore they will go like yarrrrrrrr!!! everyone deleting bms is gonna get owned by ccp mark my words! p I've deleted over 100,000 bookmarks across all my characters. I've spend countless hours making them, copying them and billions of isk buying them. Any decision to re-implement BMs would cause untold amounts of chaos and CCP has enough business sense so this would never happen. I have literally bet billions of isk on this fact.
Zirator Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:23:00 - [22] I deleted instas on both of my accounts and I allready noticed that logging into the game is a lot faster. Who knows what other benefits we'll get from it. I only hope that CCP wont nerf warp to 0 in 6 months or so. But seeing that big bubbles are seeded and interdictors might become available for low sec I don't think so.
VeNT Minmatar Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:26:00 - [23] just deleted about 2000 BMs, I feel like I've just had colonic irrigation for my char! -------------------- Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet!
Nizar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:27:00 - [24] i deleted most of my region sets. thats about 95% of my old bm's. and u know what? i feel so much better now. yay for "warp to 0"! imho one of the best expansion features... -------------- Nizar -------------- BARON VON NEINLEDERHOSEN
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Soulita on 30/11/2006 11:36:20 Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. It is good for me? Ah, if a dev says so it must be true
TribalBleb Turbulent	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. Why doesnt ccp remove them?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:33:00 - [27] Originally by: TribalBleb Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. Why doesnt ccp remove them? Exacly. Why not delete the instas when the cluster is down, one player at a time instead of trying to do it while 10000 people are trying to log on? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
The Major Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:35:00 - [28] I deleted around 3k instas and suddenly undocking and jumping takes mere seconds where before it would take forever. It was a very liberating experience.
The Major Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: TribalBleb Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. Why doesnt ccp remove them? Exacly. Why not delete the instas when the cluster is down, one player at a time instead of trying to do it while 10000 people are trying to log on? Because the number of bookmarks over the entire playerbase would be impossible to check against gate locations in anything resembling a downtime. They could easily remove all bookmarks but then that would remove all the tactical bookmarks like sniper spots, safespots, insta-undocks etc. That wouldn't be a good thing.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 11:42:44 Originally by: The Major Because the number of bookmarks over the entire playerbase would be impossible to check against gate locations in anything resembling a downtime. They could easily remove all bookmarks but then that would remove all the tactical bookmarks like sniper spots, safespots, insta-undocks etc. That wouldn't be a good thing. Yeah, I meant instas only of course. Other bookmarks are essential to keep. But when you have a super performance cluster like ccp does, in the top 400 of the worlds super computers, then you would think that it would be pretty capable of running a database delete even if its a bit slow for normal computers. You could just store the locations of all the gates in memory in a hashtable, then compare the bookmark coordinates to those locations. Should be pretty quick? Of course I really dont know much about it, im just assuming it could be made to work... :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
merc999 Caldari Turbulent Subversion	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:47:00 - [31] I bit the proverbial bullet and deleted over 7k of BMs.. No noticable change in lag when jumping etc. however I can now create NEW safe spot BM's and Midwarps almost instantly without my client grinding away trying to load. MERC999 Public Relations Director TBSV Keeping Empire and Syndicate ship builders in business
merc999 Caldari Turbulent Subversion	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:48:00 - [32] Edited by: merc999 on 30/11/2006 11:48:57 double post MERC999 Public Relations Director TBSV Keeping Empire and Syndicate ship builders in business
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:49:00 - [33] Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 30/11/2006 11:50:28 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 11:42:44 Originally by: The Major Because the number of bookmarks over the entire playerbase would be impossible to check against gate locations in anything resembling a downtime. They could easily remove all bookmarks but then that would remove all the tactical bookmarks like sniper spots, safespots, insta-undocks etc. That wouldn't be a good thing. Yeah, I meant instas only of course. Other bookmarks are essential to keep. But when you have a super performance cluster like ccp does, in the top 400 of the worlds super computers, then you would think that it would be pretty capable of running a database delete even if its a bit slow for normal computers. You could just store the locations of all the gates in memory in a hashtable, then compare the bookmark coordinates to those locations. Should be pretty quick? Of course I really dont know much about it, im just assuming it could be made to work... :) Deletes are one of the slowest functions of any DB (one of). This is made worse by any indexing on the table - theres gonna be gag loads of it on that table just to make it function. Dunno where it came from, but I was told the estimated query length on the delete was something in the order of 72 hours. Could be a made up figure, but it sounds pretty reasonable to me. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:52:00 - [34] Edited by: Victor Valka on 30/11/2006 11:53:38 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 11:42:44 Originally by: The Major Because the number of bookmarks over the entire playerbase would be impossible to check against gate locations in anything resembling a downtime. They could easily remove all bookmarks but then that would remove all the tactical bookmarks like sniper spots, safespots, insta-undocks etc. That wouldn't be a good thing. Yeah, I meant instas only of course. Other bookmarks are essential to keep. But when you have a super performance cluster like ccp does, in the top 400 of the worlds super computers, then you would think that it would be pretty capable of running a database delete even if its a bit slow for normal computers. You could just store the locations of all the gates in memory in a hashtable, then compare the bookmark coordinates to those locations. Should be pretty quick? Of course I really dont know much about it, im just assuming it could be made to work... :) It would take over 700 hours. There was a dev post about it. Total number of BM in the database was quoted at 280 million.
Eta Carinea Ascending Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:52:00 - [35] I have deleted all my empire ones about 5k worth. I am having trouble with my 0.0 ones everytime i go to delete them my hands starts to shake, followed by flash backs of flashy red things in my overview. The temptation not to delete becomes overwhelming. I am sure i will get over this but can i trust CCP to keep WTZ. Will i find one hapless day whilst traveling through 0.0 that reasuring right click warp to 0 gone. These things require a psychologist to help me with, Which eve is sadly lacking IMHO. Eta Quid Si Coelum Ruat
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:53:00 - [36] I deleted my only insta jump bookmark!
Baleine4Nerver	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:53:00 - [37] i deleted all apart from SS's.. it was very liberating ===============================================
Skyraker7 Armoured Assassins	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:54:00 - [38] It's a big scam by the carebears. Delete all your bookmarks and it will be warp to 15 again before you can ask the next asteroid "was it good for you too?" I'm keeping mine.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Victor Valka It would take over 700 hours. There was a dev post about it. Total number of BM in the database was quoted at 280 million. Sounds extreme. With 120.000 accounts, thats 2333 bookmarks per person in average. WTF? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Andargor theWise Yes, having a very big database can cause it to suffer poor performance. There are indexes to generate, and other maintenance tasks to be performed to keep it running smoothly. So yes, more BMs in the database can cause performance loss, or more accurately, steal resources for maintenance purposes. Even if you aren't using them. This is the correct answer. The guy above him is just wanted to sound smart. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:00:00 - [41] Originally by: Skyraker7 It's a big scam by the carebears. Delete all your bookmarks and it will be warp to 15 again before you can ask the next asteroid "was it good for you too?" I'm keeping mine. Clearly you are an idiot... Did you not see the Dev post the previous page? Deleted over 5k of instas and only have 33 SS's left- superb- also cleared out the "buddy" list due to the chat changes. Delete your gtg/gts/stg instas like everyone else. Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Victor Valka It would take over 700 hours. There was a dev post about it. Total number of BM in the database was quoted at 280 million. Sounds extreme. With 120.000 accounts, thats 2333 bookmarks per person in average. WTF? Sounds reasonable. I know lots of people with more than that many BMs. Personally I had around 1000, even with the clearout, I've still got a few hundred safespots and scanpoints.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:04:00 - [43] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 12:04:14 Originally by: James Lyrus Sounds reasonable. I know lots of people with more than that many BMs. Personally I had around 1000, even with the clearout, I've still got a few hundred safespots and scanpoints. Its scary tbh. I wouldnt mind if they just deleted the entire bookmark table... I can remake my safespots etc. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Emiug Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:07:00 - [44] Edited by: Emiug on 30/11/2006 12:08:25 I think it would be quite interesting to see how many BMs were deleted, and their overall impact on the server.... since i have to tunnel to play eve, previously it was EVIL to play but when i removed all my bookmarks, i seem to be able to play with alot less lag etc (i mean woah, undocking took less than a minute!!!) Click For Free Video Strip Show* *may not include stripping
Skyraker7 Armoured Assassins	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:08:00 - [45] Edited by: Skyraker7 on 30/11/2006 12:10:42 Quote: Clearly you are an idiot... Did you not see the Dev post the previous page? Clearly you are a mullet, which is to say a very stupid fish which bites at anything it sees and hence gets caught all the time.
Infrared Raven Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:14:00 - [46] Edited by: Infrared Raven on 30/11/2006 12:14:25 Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. Ok, and when do we (the 10k+ bookmark ppl) get our solution for the problem we have right now? (15 minutes to login, unable to see/delete any bookmarks...) Infrared Raven. Your on-site Cruiser and Battlecruiser BPO Vendor
Taaketa Frist The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:23:00 - [47] Edited by: Taaketa Frist on 30/11/2006 12:24:44 If you had CCP deleting people's bookmarks evening using Gate grids as a referance. Whats to say they didn't delete your near gate Scan spot? or you 150km gate sniper spot? The reason why CCP left it to the players to do this is because the petition system and forums would be instead filled with people *****ing about the fact their "really important" bms got delete along with the g2g bms. I had maybe 3000 bms. I now have about 100bms for various system Safe spots, scan spots and mining Bms. -------------- Dang nabit
Emma Green Caldari Hammerfall Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:40:00 - [48] i deleted all my BM's exept few needed safespots
Vladimir Ilych Hidden Industrial Group	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:49:00 - [49] killed all my BMs last night
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.11.30 13:01:00 - [50] Don't delete them based on grid, delete them based on distance from gates. Take a 200km side cube (since you can warp max to 100 km, farthest BM would be within this cube) around the gate and then compare coordinates, no complex math needed. As about those 700 hours, well I think they could dedicate a machine or two, install on them some post-KALI BM table snapshot (no need in live version because new insta BMs won't be created, they could even enforce that), along with the list of coordinates of every gate and station that exist in EVE, and run a job that finds all insta BMs on those machines. It will run for the long time, true, but eventually it will finish, presenting the list of keys of insta BMs in BM table. Then just keep deleting the BMs from the list, for, let's say, 15 minutes during each downtime. Eventually all of them will be deleted, maybe in a month or two, or more :)
ZelRox Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.30 13:07:00 - [51] Only safespots \ tactical bms left :) about 100 total spread over 2 accounts. ---------------------- BiH 4tw
Aypse Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.11.30 14:44:00 - [52] I have resigned myself to the fact that wtz is here, to stay. I deleted every gtg,stg,gts, and instadock bm I have. Its kinda scary, but if you think about it, ccp is not going to get rid of wtz. The benefit of reduced server load outweighs the strategic/tactical value of wt15 in the minds of the devs and at least a fair share of the eve populace. Now they just need to make adjustments to lowsec to increase the danger/fun-factor to previous levels, but thats another thread full of flames. Delete your instas, they are useless now and reduce server performance.
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Infrared Raven Edited by: Infrared Raven on 30/11/2006 12:14:25 Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. Ok, and when do we (the 10k+ bookmark ppl) get our solution for the problem we have right now? (15 minutes to login, unable to see/delete any bookmarks...) the ddevelopers warned PRIOR to revelations deplyment that would be better to delete them before the patch. You didn't want to listen... your fault.. now pay the price.
Fliewatuet Angelus dos Business	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. It's like preaching to the raindrops right in front of you in the middle of a great shower, isn't it? ;) Regards, Fliewatuet --
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.30 18:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 30/11/2006 06:52:16 Originally by: Raivotar Just delete instaBM's. CCP didnt say it just for fun of it. Done. Just the Safe-Spots remains. It was a rather liberating experience. I hope everybody does it to. But... The devs say it? when? where? Yeah I deleted mine on Monday before the batch, and totally liberated I did feel. The patch notes originally said it would be best to delete pre the install, but they changed it. Something to do with too much hassle deleting them post patch. _______ * Disclaimer * Some or all of the above post may not be entirely accurate.

kieron	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:02:00 - [56] As Victor stated, there were over 280 million bookmarks in the game database and it would have taken almost 700 hours for us to delete them for the community. Yes, that is just shy of a month's worth of downtime. The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. Can we automate the process? We are looking for ways to assist players that have not been able to delete mass amounts of bookmarks and hope to have something in the very near future. Are there going to be some hiccups along the way as people delete their Instas? Sure, but the long-term benefits far outweigh the detriments. Playability for the community and individual player will increase as database performance improves due to fewer db entries. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Kaynard Stormwalker Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:08:00 - [57] Originally by: kieron As Victor stated, there were over 280 million bookmarks in the game database and it would have taken almost 700 hours for us to delete them for the community. Yes, that is just shy of a month's worth of downtime. The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. Can we automate the process? We are looking for ways to assist players that have not been able to delete mass amounts of bookmarks and hope to have something in the very near future. Yes, you can easily automate. (Although I dunno how your GM tools work, you might not be able to :P) Set a date and say: "On day xx we are deleting every single BM" Do you need some of your BM's ? Make a folder named "sparemybms" (case sensitive :P) and move every BM you need to keep there. Downtime starts, GM's give the "delete every single BM outside the "sparemybms" folder" command, wait, be happy. Thats what I would do anyway, and soon.
Virida Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:12:00 - [58] Originally by: kieron As Victor stated, there were over 280 million bookmarks in the game database and it would have taken almost 700 hours for us to delete them for the community. Yes, that is just shy of a month's worth of downtime. The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. Can we automate the process? We are looking for ways to assist players that have not been able to delete mass amounts of bookmarks and hope to have something in the very near future. Are there going to be some hiccups along the way as people delete their Instas? Sure, but the long-term benefits far outweigh the detriments. Playability for the community and individual player will increase as database performance improves due to fewer db entries. OOmg I just got a weak immage of what kind of beast the poor instas is for the server. I assume they is single, or double floats to top it off? (doing 100 million double float operations kill anything, guaranteed).
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:19:00 - [59] If CCP decides to revert WTZ's implementation, instas will still be dead. Theyare just way too bad for the server, and personal greed is irrelevant ultimately. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." Corp/Alliance Services
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:29:00 - [60] another way to kill instas is to do it is client side. make a background process that silently identifies the insta BMs and reports them to server. then one day kill em all. or let client (EVE client app, not a player of course) do it. nice distributed method :) can be very fast.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 20:20:00 - [61] Originally by: kieron The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. What a crock. This makes the game unplayable, noone chose that. I've been watching the patch notes and didnt see this, I thought it said they were going to be deleted but in any event I sure as hell didnt see anything saying my character was going to become unplayable. Next time you're going to basically perma-kill characters if we don't perform manual maintenance on our end I'd suggest a metric ****ton more heads up.
Mor Vince	Posted - 2006.11.30 20:43:00 - [62] Originally by: Raste Originally by: kieron The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. What a crock. This makes the game unplayable, noone chose that. I've been watching the patch notes and didnt see this, I thought it said they were going to be deleted but in any event I sure as hell didnt see anything saying my character was going to become unplayable. Next time you're going to basically perma-kill characters if we don't perform manual maintenance on our end I'd suggest a metric ****ton more heads up. Patch notes were subject to change. I wasn't going to risk them deciding not to do it after all. That's why I didn't pre-delete mine - that and I wanted to USE them until warp to 0 was actually in to replace them. Of course I had them as much or more to save time bumbling in to the gate or dock as for safety. And I didn't have enough to cause me the login problems those with many thousands are experiencing.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.30 20:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Raste Originally by: kieron The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. What a crock. This makes the game unplayable, noone chose that. I've been watching the patch notes and didnt see this, I thought it said they were going to be deleted but in any event I sure as hell didnt see anything saying my character was going to become unplayable. Next time you're going to basically perma-kill characters if we don't perform manual maintenance on our end I'd suggest a metric **ton more heads up. Risk vs Reward Originally by:** Dwight Hammerhead . Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:02:00 - [64] Edited by: Raste on 30/11/2006 21:04:02 Originally by: Harisdrop Originally by: Raste Originally by: kieron The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. What a crock. This makes the game unplayable, noone chose that. I've been watching the patch notes and didnt see this, I thought it said they were going to be deleted but in any event I sure as hell didnt see anything saying my character was going to become unplayable. Next time you're going to basically perma-kill characters if we don't perform manual maintenance on our end I'd suggest a metric ****ton more heads up. Risk vs Reward Would apply if there'd been an announcement that you delete your bookmarks or your character will become unplayable. This would probably merit its own announcement as well, not being stuck in with three pages of change notes. Personally I thought they'd said CCP was going to delete them but there was a ton of info flying around so I'm sure I'm mistaken. Even so, I almost deleted mine just for the fun of doing it myself. Had I known we were supposed to be doing just that I would certainly have done so. There was no choice to ignore their directive and hope my 35,000 obsolete bookmarks would bring me gold in the new land.
Hyym	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:04:00 - [65] I'm sure people deleting their instas will cause lag too. So i just wish you all dont do it at the same time! I personally can wait for a few weeks to do the cleanup.

kieron	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:04:00 - [66] Originally by: Patch Notes Other Game Play Features 'Warp to 0 km' will be added as an option to the 'Warp' menu. This is being done in conjunction with the deletion of 'Instajump' bookmarks, a major contributor to database and game lag. It is highly recommended for players to delete their instajump bookmarks before the Revelations deployment. This action will improve client performance and decrease log-in times. Note: Normal bookmarks will not be affected by this change. Due to the time it would take to automatically delete them, instajump bookmarks will need to be manually deleted. and just a little bit lower on the page: Originally by: Patch Notes Note: Changes and additions may be added in the future during the ongoing Quality Assurance process. Finalized changes or additions will be highlighted with green text. The mention of manual deletion at the end of the first note was added during the path deployment, there was little that could be done about that. It wasn't until the deployment was underway that we found out just how long it would take us to automatically delete bookmarks (over 690 hours). However, the first part of the patch note was posted Saturday evening GMT when 'Warp to 0 km' was finalized as a feature and had passed QA. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Shin Ra Originally by: InnerDrive Edited by: InnerDrive on 30/11/2006 07:02:08 Originally by: mazzilliu i deleted 5k instas yesterday, it felt goooooooooooooood. lol ur so owned, just wait a few weeks u will see ccp putting warp at 15 back and with the way u cant copy sets that easy anymore they will go like yarrrrrrrr!!! everyone deleting bms is gonna get owned by ccp mark my words! p I've deleted over 100,000 bookmarks across all my characters. I've spend countless hours making them, copying them and billions of isk buying them. Any decision to re-implement BMs would cause untold amounts of chaos and CCP has enough business sense so this would never happen. I have literally bet billions of isk on this fact. wow and I thought I had alot I am with Sin on this one. I dont see them doin that considering alot of players have already put alot of faith in CCP and took it upon themselfs to delete their bm's.. I got rid of all mine over 10k in total.. I feel so much better. ----------------------------------------------- ok ok
Pecks Caldari Black Knight Buccaneers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:10:00 - [68] Originally by: Ginger. Having Insta bookmarks sitting there will cause you lag. Destroy them all, its good for the soul. Thats real nice What have you got for all the players who are unable to access the P&P to do so ? I mean we all pay the same amount but sum get less for there money than others. Very bad for the soul. No?
Freddy Krueger STK Scientific	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:15:00 - [69] Are we living in a parallel universe on this topic. We're being informed by CCP - pretty much after the fact - that if we did not manually remove our own bm's our characters become fubar; absolutely unreal. What is going to happen to any returning players after this expansion? If some poor soul rectivates their account now, are you saying it's still the players fault?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:17:00 - [70] Originally by: Freddy Krueger Are we living in a parallel universe on this topic. We're being informed by CCP - pretty much after the fact - that if we did not manually remove our own bm's our characters become fubar; absolutely unreal. What is going to happen to any returning players after this expansion? If some poor soul rectivates their account now, are you saying it's still the players fault? I didn't delete my BMs until after the patch, and it works fine. My guess is the uber-lag caused by your P&P, if you still have a lot of BMs, is due to the fac the BM database is dealing with an inordinate amount of requests what with everyone deleting theire. Give it a week and I bet it calms down. -----------------------------------------------
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Freddy Krueger Are we living in a parallel universe on this topic. We're being informed by CCP - pretty much after the fact - that if we did not manually remove our own bm's our characters become fubar; absolutely unreal. Wtf are you saying? Kieron said that removing the BMs will improve performance. Exactly how does your mind translate this into "if you don't, your character will be fubar"? Man, the number of people on these forums who are willing to invent FUD just to spite CCP is astonishing.
Pecks Caldari Black Knight Buccaneers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:21:00 - [72] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Patch Notes Other Game Play Features 'Warp to 0 km' will be added as an option to the 'Warp' menu. This is being done in conjunction with the deletion of 'Instajump' bookmarks, a major contributor to database and game lag. It is highly recommended for players to delete their instajump bookmarks before the Revelations deployment. This action will improve client performance and decrease log-in times. Note: Normal bookmarks will not be affected by this change. Due to the time it would take to automatically delete them, instajump bookmarks will need to be manually deleted. and just a little bit lower on the page: Originally by: Patch Notes Note: Changes and additions may be added in the future during the ongoing Quality Assurance process. Finalized changes or additions will be highlighted with green text. The mention of manual deletion at the end of the first note was added during the path deployment, there was little that could be done about that. It wasn't until the deployment was underway that we found out just how long it would take us to automatically delete bookmarks (over 690 hours). However, the first part of the patch note was posted Saturday evening GMT when 'Warp to 0 km' was finalized as a feature and had passed QA. I dont read anywhere in there saying if you dont you wont be able to access your P&P or Buddies or Agents or Corp Member list or your Blocked list. There is also no where in anything stating that some of you will and some of you wont. Come on now its a problem people are haveing because of coding not because of Bookmarks. Please stop with the qute replys and get the problem fixed, not being able to use safespots or sniping spots or to be able to warp to your ships and equipment located by a bookmark is unfair for those who have this bug. I wouldnt mind waiting for the fix if I could just make another but I cant do that either. So please just fix it so we can all play the same game.
Dwayne Jarrett	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:21:00 - [73] Edited by: Dwayne Jarrett on 30/11/2006 21:21:32 Originally by: kieron Originally by: Patch Notes Other Game Play Features 'Warp to 0 km' will be added as an option to the 'Warp' menu. This is being done in conjunction with the deletion of 'Instajump' bookmarks, a major contributor to database and game lag. It is highly recommended for players to delete their instajump bookmarks before the Revelations deployment. This action will improve client performance and decrease log-in times. Note: Normal bookmarks will not be affected by this change. Due to the time it would take to automatically delete them, instajump bookmarks will need to be manually deleted. and just a little bit lower on the page: Originally by: Patch Notes Note: Changes and additions may be added in the future during the ongoing Quality Assurance process. Finalized changes or additions will be highlighted with green text. The mention of manual deletion at the end of the first note was added during the path deployment, there was little that could be done about that. It wasn't until the deployment was underway that we found out just how long it would take us to automatically delete bookmarks (over 690 hours). However, the first part of the patch note was posted Saturday evening GMT when 'Warp to 0 km' was finalized as a feature and had passed QA. One sentence in the middle of a long paragraph in the middle of a big set of patchnotes that was undergoing revision was our warning that our characters were going to become unplayable? Are you f'ing kidding me? edit - friggin alts...this is Raste
Freddy Krueger STK Scientific	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:22:00 - [74] >>> Za Po >>> your lack of understanding is evident. If you suddenly lose every one of your safe spots & more importantly, your ability to make more - no "make bm" button - you character is totally wrecked. Get playing the game fan boi rather than posting with no clue.
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:08:00 - [75] Have those of you with problems opening the bookmarks tried clearing your cache? Or just leaving the game sitting there loading till it's finished? -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
ZaKma The Scope	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:10:00 - [76] I deleted 60,000 bm's across 3 characters as well. I spent a lot of time copying them for my alts and buying them for my main. In the end, it was worth it. Jumping to another system is almost instant now, of course until you get stuck in a queue and die waiting to jump. --- I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Kylania Have those of you with problems opening the bookmarks tried clearing your cache? Or just leaving the game sitting there loading till it's finished? Yes and yes. Also reinstalling.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:18:00 - [78] Originally by: Za Po Originally by: Freddy Krueger Are we living in a parallel universe on this topic. We're being informed by CCP - pretty much after the fact - that if we did not manually remove our own bm's our characters become fubar; absolutely unreal. Wtf are you saying? Kieron said that removing the BMs will improve performance. Exactly how does your mind translate this into "if you don't, your character will be fubar"? Man, the number of people on these forums who are willing to invent FUD just to spite CCP is astonishing. Read the thread. We can't delete them. Kieron is saying its our fault for not deleting pre-patch.
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:19:00 - [79] Grr. Hopefully they devs will find out why your clients are locking up, be sure to submit a bug report so they can look at your accounts and see if there's anything different/corrupted with them. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
Paula Trevaline Amarr Aberrance	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:51:00 - [80] Edited by: Paula Trevaline on 30/11/2006 22:53:52 Originally by: kieron However, the first part of the patch note was posted Saturday evening GMT when 'Warp to 0 km' was finalized as a feature and had passed QA. I beleive all complainers, conspiracy theorists, and honest gamers are equally revolving their conversation on the overt and covert realities of how it passed QA Testing, but functionally appears to not have passed regresion testing. The events of P&P bugging out and login delays were occuring over the span of at least 2 days before the patch on the test server (singularity) and the same information being reported after the patch (code went to production system) was reported before the patch (as the code was in public testing on a production replicated DB).
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:10:00 - [81] Edited by: Za Po on 30/11/2006 23:11:51 Edited by: Za Po on 30/11/2006 23:11:40 Originally by: Raste Read the thread. We can't delete them. Kieron is saying its our fault for not deleting pre-patch. No, he is not saying that. It's that simple. People were wondering why they had to manually delete BMs and why some people seemed to know it beforehand, so he answered. You are twisting his words to mean something they don't, and frankly I don't understand what you think you'll get from this. If you absolutely need to find some blame, get angry at the fact that a glaring bug got on the live server. That's more than enough.
Tolomea Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:10:00 - [82] Edited by: Tolomea on 30/11/2006 23:13:03 280 million bookmarks. Each will have a unique ID, a player ID, a system ID, X, Y and Z coordinates to pin it down to +-100m anywhere in the system, a folder ID, and a name. That's easily 64 bytes each. That gives us 18gb of data. Thats a fair chunk of RamSan space just for the bookmark table. If your having new performance problems post patch then I'd imagine they've thrown the BM table off the RamSan to make space other stuff. Also warp to 0 may or may not be here to stay, but insta's arn't ever comming back. I gaurentee you that if they do bring back warp to 15 then before they do they will delete the remaining instas and prevent BM creation within 15km of gates and stations. There are 3 reasons why it will happen this way. 1: Instas just take up to much resources. 2: They defeat the point of warp to 15. 3: The community is investing a lot of trust in CCP by deleting thier insta collections, CCP isn't dumb enuf to ever give the players a reason to regret that.
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:14:00 - [83] Edited by: Za Po on 30/11/2006 23:14:30 Originally by: Tolomea 280 million bookmarks. Each will have a unique ID, a player ID, a system ID, X, Y and Z coordinates to pin it down to +-100m anywhere in the system, a folder ID, and a name. That's easily 64 bytes each. That gives us 18gb of data. Thats a fair chunk of RamSan space just for the bookmark table. If your having new performance problems post patch then I'd imagine they've thrown the BM table off the RamSan to make space other stuff. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a dev blog stated exactly how much space the BM table occupies. It was fairly staggering. I seem to recall something over 10% of the DB! I'm afraid that voluntary removal isn't going to be enough, though. Even after the P&P-crashing bug is solved, lots of people are going to simply be too lazy. And let's not mention inactive accounts.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:19:00 - [84] Originally by: kieron The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. Chose? No, it would of been silly to do so. Why? Remember the small tractor beam BPO prices, and the reversal? I do (and I only have 1, which I use. So no I didn't lose ISK...). As was said over and over at the time, the patch notes ain't final until the patch. If we'd deleted, and there was a reverse on instas? We'd of been stuffed. So yes, I deleted mine after the patch. Paranoia isn't bad when it really HAS happened in the past. //Maya
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:36:00 - [85] Quote: No, he is not saying that. It's that simple. People were wondering why they had to manually delete BMs and why some people seemed to know it beforehand, so he answered. You are twisting his words to mean something they don't, and frankly I don't understand what you think you'll get from this. Quote: The patch notes did ask for the community to delete their Instas before the patch. Some chose not to do so. This was followed up with a post quoting the snippet from the expansion patch notes. If he's not saying that its our fault, then I'm totally missing whatever point he's going for. Anyway, its neither here nor there. If its not fixed, the accounts screwed by it will start cancelling, regardless of whose fault it is. All I want is the ability to play my character. I'd also like any action steps that I need to take in the future to be prominently announced, not stuck in the middle of a dynamic patch notes document for a major expansion, particularly if the consequences are going to be game-breaking.

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