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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
1081
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:10:13 -
[1] - Quote
Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
206
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:53:15 -
[2] - Quote
Just wanted to let you know, but if the warpin was 50km closer it is more than likely that the losers would have won, right? |
Talia Soucu
Janus Financial Group
5
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:55:06 -
[3] - Quote
So ... the team that breaks the rules wins the match and gets no penalties?
And here I thought CCP couldn't surprise me. |
Mizhir
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
74544
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:55:08 -
[4] - Quote
Gone Critical was atcually close to breaking a SNI which could have won them the match. The warpin certainly skewed it towards Together We Solo.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Aebe Amraen
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
158
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:58:16 -
[5] - Quote
This is a very unfortunate decision.
The rules are well established. For the sake of the integrity of the tournament, a team which breaks the rules should be punished, whether or not you believe it affected the outcome of the match--which it very well might have in this case.
Please reverse your stance and either count this as a loss for Together We Solo or disqualify them from the tournament entirely. |
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:03:24 -
[6] - Quote
Wouldn't it be prudent to redo the match out of fairness? In the past a warp in violation like this would have put the team at 0 and possibly even a health penalty to the penalizing ships.
Wondering "what ifs" is not useful because that scenario didn't happen :) |
Skyler Hawk
Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co.
44
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:10:27 -
[7] - Quote
Aebe Amraen wrote:This is a very unfortunate decision.
The rules are well established. For the sake of the integrity of the tournament, a team which breaks the rules should be punished, whether or not you believe it affected the outcome of the match--which it very well might have in this case.
Please reverse your stance and either count this as a loss for Together We Solo or disqualify them from the tournament entirely. I have to agree with this. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
283
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:15:55 -
[8] - Quote
Personally I would have the match replayed, but it's up to Logibro and his team how he wants it handled.
For Today, football refs, everything in real time and some wee mistakes may slip thru.
For the rest of the even : Tennis ref, everything can and will be challenged with Polariseye :D
@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet
TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub'
Glasgow / Edinbvrgh Meet Organiser
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Deck Cadelanne
188
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:18:31 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
This is the wrong call.
Failing to enforce the rules in this tournament will encourage more cheating.
Using the excuse that "the ref didn't notice" makes it even worse.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
324
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:20:49 -
[10] - Quote
What new hidden rules we learned in Day 1:
1. Teams can do whatever they want, as long as you are the first team doing it, you'll get off with a warning.
2. CCPs referees are so bad, they might aswel be blind or just not be in the arena system at all. Since they don't do what they're supposed to do incase they're supposed to do anything. (missing a warpin and deadspace mods where they aren't allowed is kinda dumb really). Being a volunteer, is not an excuse for doing a ****** job.
How do you want to get taken seriously as any sort of fair event with ruling like the ones we've seen today, both breaches where the teams faults and not the games faults?
This is a fun thread to reference people to when they ask dumb questions about EVE and Esports.
Baddest poster ever
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Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1361
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:20:50 -
[11] - Quote
I am disappointed in CCP's decision in this matter.
Not seeing why both teams can't have all their destroyed assets returned and the match re-run. Yes, it would take a bit of time. But not that much time.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Aliventi
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
906
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:21:09 -
[12] - Quote
Why not apply a point penalty to their next match? Let them use 95 out of 100 points. |
AgentHawk
The Exit Plan Test Alliance Please Ignore
174
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:30:02 -
[13] - Quote
the TEST team will not stand for any of this bullshit in our matches
we literally practice YEAR ROUND for every AT with only ~2 months off out of the year
people have missed work, called in sick, missed weddings (it was an aunt's remarriage but still) so they can practice or play in the AT match
to have it end in this kind of slip up is just so wrong, and so disappointing, and so offensive to the SMALL community of players that put so much effort into a small aspect of the game that means so much to them
players pointed out the illegally fitted flagship players pointed out the stream overlay was cutting off the 12th player and not showing the full team players pointed out a team illegally warped to 100km
pay someone to make a god damn checklist ffs
50 ******* km is a lot more space than ANYONE is reasonably expecting to deal with, if it was the TEST team i would have been stirring so much **** in local |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
325
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:38:31 -
[14] - Quote
Sad for the teams which put in the effort to make a great showing, but it looks like chances for a fair competition are already out of the windows for this years tournament. :(
Baddest poster ever
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Hoodie Mafia
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
43
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:39:08 -
[15] - Quote
I can do nothing but speak up against this decision. Mistakes will happen but you cannot allow unfair advantages for any team without at the very least applying a penalty to the offending team
Even better, force a rematch with the same comps at a proper warpin locations |
Mister Marram
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
30
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:39:27 -
[16] - Quote
If the rules can be broken without consequence, then what is the point in having rules at all.
Since the winners won the match, it should be forfeit. If they had lost then the rule breaking gave them no advantage and so the result would stand.
If the winner is left as is, then it sets a dangerous precedent for future rule breaking. |
Transmaritanus
Exergy. Together We Solo
137
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:43:15 -
[17] - Quote
Since neither side has actually weighed in yet, I'll post what we saw from our side:
- We were sitting at the start positions for a good 4-6 minutes before the match started. In this time, neither team nor GMs said anything about the ranges, which was 100km off.
- In the time we were sitting at the start position, an opposing Oneiros warped in at a bad angle, and was corrected by a GM. Again, nothing in local even mentioned warping in at an unfair advantage.
- 100km warp in would make a significant difference if we were in a kiting fleet; however we were clearly in a brawl fleet, as we barely moved from our start position.
- Nobody on either side died until everyone was on top of each other
Again, neither team said anything before the match started or after the match ended, we acted in good faith and the other team appeared to have believed so too. |
Ivory Kantenu
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
74
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:46:46 -
[18] - Quote
As a fellow participant this year as well, I certainly cannot agree with this call on CCPs part.
We all hope you reconsider your decision on behalf of both teams, as you have basically given a greenlight to the team with the unfair advantage, and have basically punished the ones following the rules you yourselves put into play.
[i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]
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Alex Rax
The Stormcrows Stella Nova
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:48:09 -
[19] - Quote
"You can't break the rules, but they can!"
I can't help but say I'm disappointed in CCP for this decision, I thought the AT was supposed to be about the best players on a even footing but I guess I was wrong, it's about who can cheat the most and get away with it. |
Gideon Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:57:01 -
[20] - Quote
This just encourages cheating. Not punishing people for infractions is complete trash. At this rate a team might as well use high grade implants and 6% hardwirings. If they lose them for some reason, it will be another case of "Oops, oh well. They lost them so that's punishment enough". |
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Braden Fanguard
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
3
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:58:31 -
[21] - Quote
Sorry CCP, but this is a bullshit ruling. They broke the rules and should be punished, not rewarded. Bad call. |
Tacia Andrean
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:03:32 -
[22] - Quote
Transmaritanus wrote:
- 100km warp in would make a significant difference if we were in a kiting fleet; however we were clearly in a brawl fleet, as we barely moved from our start position.
I too usually warp my brawl comps in at 100km.
You barely moved from your start position because--based on your widow fit--you didn't have propmods of any kind. You didn't have an option of moving anywhere. You were, again based on your widow fit, using long-range weapons.
Calling Rattlesnake, 2x Scorpion NI, and Widow warped in at 100km with long-range weapons a brawling fleet isn't even a bad joke, it's just a straight up lie. |
Marsha Mallow
2442
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:04:55 -
[23] - Quote
You need to replay matches like this and build some time into the schedule to allow for it.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Summer VonSturm
Senex Legio The OSS
39
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:10:40 -
[24] - Quote
Its rare I post on the forums, but this is an terrible, terrible choice. You simply cannot allow a team that has cheated, and won, to continue on in the tournament. How can you possibly then punish the next team caught cheating? At the very least, replay the match. As it stands, the whole integrity of the tourney is skewed badly. |
Le Mittani
SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:17:55 -
[25] - Quote
I really didn't think my opinion of ccp could go any lower after that farce of a town hall meeting, and then here comes this. You let a team cheat, and win because of that cheating, and then not punish them. :ccp: strikes again |
AgentHawk
The Exit Plan Test Alliance Please Ignore
175
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:18:43 -
[26] - Quote
IF BOTH PARTIES ARE FINE WITH THE OUTCOME THEN WHAT CAN WE DO?
I WAS NOT AWARE BOTH PARTIES DID NOT GIVE A **** ABOUT THE 50km DIFFERENCE
IN THE FUTURE, CCP you should let us KNOW that the parties are OK with this CLEARLY controversial ruling
to avoid posts like mine, and everyone elses, and all the reddit posts and my TEST alliance jabber pings |
Talia Soucu
Janus Financial Group
8
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:20:43 -
[27] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:What new hidden rules we learned in Day 1:
1. Teams can do whatever they want, as long as you are the first team doing it, you'll get off with a warning.
Yeah. I guess the next thing to do is try to smuggle in pirate implant sets, Marauders with a Bastion module, and T2 combat drones. Even if you get caught, not like anything bad will happen. |
Scrubwolfe
Taxing Solace
0
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:22:44 -
[28] - Quote
Welcome to AT XIII, the tournament where the rules don't matter and the points are made up. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1541
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:27:24 -
[29] - Quote
.... Redo the Match...
Basically the easiest fix you can do.
Redo the match, or both teams get a buy into the next round (only other option since CCP ruled the team goes forward regardless).
Yaay!!!!
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Ryuuji Ibarazaki
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
11
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:29:52 -
[30] - Quote
git gud ccp |
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Nelly Ooze
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:32:51 -
[31] - Quote
Can I bring an Archon to our next match?
I mean, rules are meant to be broken, right? |
Aethus148
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:36:15 -
[32] - Quote
#justiceforGNCRI |
Summer VonSturm
Senex Legio The OSS
40
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:38:25 -
[33] - Quote
AgentHawk wrote:IF BOTH PARTIES ARE FINE WITH THE OUTCOME THEN WHAT CAN WE DO?
I WAS NOT AWARE BOTH PARTIES DID NOT GIVE A **** ABOUT THE 50km DIFFERENCE
IN THE FUTURE, CCP you should let us KNOW that the parties are OK with this CLEARLY controversial ruling
to avoid posts like mine, and everyone elses, and all the reddit posts and my TEST alliance jabber pings
Whether or not the teams are happy about it, shouldn't be relevant. The rules are there for all to adhere to. If the next couple of fights, both teams are happy to break the points limit, or fitting restrictions, is that ok? Of course not. |
Tallardar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:44:19 -
[34] - Quote
So PL are allowed to field their whole titan and super fleet right? I mean, the rules don't seem to be enforced so what's going to happen if the team members are in those ships?
Pandemic Horde Tutorial Videos | Monthly Nullsec Recap
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2193
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:47:23 -
[35] - Quote
Henry Plantgenet wrote:Wouldn't it be prudent to redo the match out of fairness? Indeed.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Tiberian Deci
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:56:24 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote: After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
Just dropping in to say I think this is a terrible stand to take. It's double elimination, give the cheating team a loss, give the losing team a win, and the team that now has a loss continues through their bracket. |
Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
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Posted - 2015.08.15 23:59:28 -
[37] - Quote
First round of matches, two teams breaking the rules and neither getting punished. This is starting out well.
Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
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Sahriah BloodStone
Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum
167
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:00:48 -
[38] - Quote
I think it would be fair to replay the match to be honest. Looks like most people agree.
Sahriah Bloodstone
Praetor, Forsaken Asylum
"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "
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Sub Starasque
Kite Co. Space Trucking Brave Collective
2
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:02:59 -
[39] - Quote
So explain to me why there should even be rules in the first place if you have no intention of upholding them? |
Valc
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:07:04 -
[40] - Quote
interesting looking back on the punishment of hydra and outbreak and they didnt even break anyrules . very curious, in my eyes this was an easy decision, you cheat you lose thats how every sport match up goes. this isnt a small violation at all. everyone knows range is a game changer in this game |
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings The WeHurt Initiative
3441
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:18:42 -
[41] - Quote
This isn't surprising.
Neither that Together We Solo ignored the rules, nor that CCP's chosen referee was paying no attention, and certainly not that CCP themselves choose to throw the rules out for this 'one time' occurrence.
I'm curious to see what other rules get broken during the AT this year, and which ones CCP will decide require no action when they are. Perhaps this is an indicator that these rules will be removed from next year's contest, since they are obviously irrelevant.
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General Vachot
The Vendunari End of Life
14
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:23:51 -
[42] - Quote
Given we play one of these two teams next match I'd like to know sooner rather than later if CCP is going to stick with this call or not as it changes our approach and I am sure the approach by the other two teams to the next match around meta etc. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
861
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:30:50 -
[43] - Quote
So we don't have to follow the rules anymore CCP?
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
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Inglor Telemnar
Interstellar Luxury Country Club GONE MAD.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:55:55 -
[44] - Quote
BAD CALL CCP, VERY BAD CALL. |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
26
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Posted - 2015.08.16 01:21:57 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
This is not just unfortunate. I would go as far as to say that this has got to be a joke. The reason is that even after "review and discussion" the tournament team does not have a plausible counterfactual how the game would have unfolded had they not made the mistake. Perhaps Gone Critical would have flown altogether differently had they been closer to begin with. As a pilot in the AT, I hope this decision gets reversed. |
Helo Dhals
I Pay Hookers 2 Leave Allibaitors
1
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Posted - 2015.08.16 01:26:42 -
[46] - Quote
A rule without enforcement is just a request. This is a joke. |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Drama Sutra
43
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Posted - 2015.08.16 01:36:12 -
[47] - Quote
Can i bring my bastion CCP ? |
Jureka
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
1
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Posted - 2015.08.16 01:55:21 -
[48] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:You need to replay matches like this and build some time into the schedule to allow for it. ^ this |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
142
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Posted - 2015.08.16 02:07:43 -
[49] - Quote
Is the real CCP still on holiday? |
Dradis Aulmais
RW Vindicator Connection Phoebe Freeport Republic
991
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Posted - 2015.08.16 02:23:19 -
[50] - Quote
So the refs also work for Fifa
Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896
Free The Scope Three
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TimNeilson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
13
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Posted - 2015.08.16 02:25:03 -
[51] - Quote
This is a bad decision and you should feel bad about it. |
HeXxploiT
Big Diggers Get Off My Lawn
178
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Posted - 2015.08.16 02:52:41 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
I suspect that there is more to this than meets the eye and you guys just aren't ready to discuss it yet publicly for whatever reason. The reason I suspect this is because on the surface it looks like such an obviously poor decision that I can't believe a call this bad would be made by CCP.
Will wait and see if there is more... |
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
18
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Posted - 2015.08.16 03:05:43 -
[53] - Quote
I was on the fence about continuing my sub, so thanks. Now I have more important info about CCP. |
Gabriel Esq
Rolling Static Gone Critical
0
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Posted - 2015.08.16 03:30:28 -
[54] - Quote
****, I already made plans for tomorrow |
Lazarus Telraven
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
85
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Posted - 2015.08.16 04:50:01 -
[55] - Quote
Would really like to see this become a rematch as the first match on Sunday. Push all of the other matches back 15 minutes and let this play out.
Wont take any extra time and some matches are typically shorter then others the time can be made up later in the day. As a commentator on Alliance Tournament 10 I know the stress you guys are under to keep things running smoothly while trying to kitten herd the teams.
Look forward to seeing the matches tomorrow. I will be commentating them on Stream with Elise Randolph was going to do it today but I kinda overslept xD. |
Vendrin
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
36
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Posted - 2015.08.16 04:53:37 -
[56] - Quote
Really dissapointing CCP. Wrong call and shortsighted |
Garnt TheBrobarian
Hole Violence Whole Squid
48
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Posted - 2015.08.16 05:37:18 -
[57] - Quote
I was under the impression that CCP was trying to get serious about e-sports. Have you given up on that? This ruling seems to suggest so. |
vikari
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
136
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Posted - 2015.08.16 05:46:57 -
[58] - Quote
Any other real world or gaming tournament would of had a different ruling. Rules are put in writing before any matches.... There is no excuse for not following the rules, and the team should of been reprimanded for this. Regardless of who wins the tournament, at this point we should question every future result, as the rightful teams that deserve to be there will not. My opinion is that the tournament is illegitimate. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39498
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Posted - 2015.08.16 05:48:54 -
[59] - Quote
I'll also join the core of people who think this is the wrong decision.
Are we all able to warp in at 100km now, or break the rules some other way as long as it isn't picked up? Can we use drugs for example and maybe get away with it?
To be fair on the tournament and Gone Critical, I think this decision should be reversed.
Either Together We Solo are declared the losers of the match for a rules breach, which in high probability did affect the outcome, or as with some other past rules breaches, they are disqualified from the tournament.
As it currently stands:
Together We Solo: Cheated, 1 win, one set of SKINs, in the winners bracket currently and still require 2 losses before elimination.
Gone Critical: Played by the rules, 1 loss, no SKINs despite playing by the rules against a cheating opponent, 1 loss away from elimination.
That sort of stinks.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Lincoln Fleet
Rokafeller Umbrella Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.08.16 05:51:01 -
[60] - Quote
Well CCP has confirmed that no rules will be enforced in this tournament. Teams should feel free to ignore any of the tournament's "officially posted suggestions" since CCP no longer has any right to stop or punish players for doing so, except for the poisonous "it's our game" trump card.
Want to bring 10 battleships? Go right on ahead. Hell, why not make them 10 of the same battleship? Even better, bling them out and bring an expensive clone. Three logi? Sounds great! CCP has willingly disregarded CLEAR and DIRECT violations of the tournament rules which they themselves created. Attempting to enforce them now immediately invalidates any conclusion of the tournament, so it's open season!!!
Good hunting, ladies and gents. May the best cheaters... not really win... gloat? |
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General Vachot
The Vendunari End of Life
14
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Posted - 2015.08.16 05:59:20 -
[61] - Quote
I agree that a rematch as first match is best way to resolve this. Or at the very least if you don't plan to change the decision in any way then at leats award Gone critical 1 set of the BPC? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39499
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Posted - 2015.08.16 06:14:27 -
[62] - Quote
General Vachot wrote:I agree that a rematch as first match is best way to resolve this. Or at the very least if you don't plan to change the decision in any way then at leats award Gone critical 1 set of the BPC? The only issue I have with a rematch is that it exposes another one of both teams doctrines and may leave one or both of the teams short when they fight just a couple of hours later, giving them limited choices against any bans that occur in the later fight against us.
That seems overly harsh on Gone Critical, who abided by the rules and don't deserve to be subject to a second fight for round one. If they lose the fight, they will end up right where they are now, but potentially without a doctrine they might otherwise be able to use.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jamir Von Lietuva
Shiva Nulli Secunda
28
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Posted - 2015.08.16 06:15:56 -
[63] - Quote
This is simple, you cheat, you loose or even get kicked from the tourney. If you cheat you do not deserve a replay.
as a competitor tourney is hard as it is, now we have to not only play with the meta we have but question every match if they have crystals or slaves in, maybe halos, what if their cheating flagship does not die and we loose? This puts an unnecessary mental strain on participants and it's super simple to solve.
Cant follow rules - get REKT.
also i want my Flycatcher reimbursed |
Ospie
a-Losers
21
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Posted - 2015.08.16 06:21:50 -
[64] - Quote
I also would like to see this ruling reversed. The match would have gone very differently had the warp-ins been legal, there shouldn't be any leniency towards breaking the rules - intentional or not. The AT is meant to A) Provide an event for the Eve community, B) Provide an opportunity for groups to put their best forwards to fight under 'fair / equal' conditions to determine the better team in each match, C) Showcase Eve as an MMO with a competitive, innovative player base to attract future players.
This decision insults A & B and shows Eve in a poor light. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
908
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:55:08 -
[65] - Quote
Every year it's more stories like this.
No wonder people are losing interest. |
Ole Sukarala
Stardust Ltd. Advent of Fate
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 07:09:05 -
[66] - Quote
You cant possibly be serious about this and let that rule breaking go unpunished. Even if the rule breaking team had lost. a what-if is not needed here - a violation of rules needs to be sanctioned. Referee mistakes can happen but you have to fix it afterwards or nobody will take the rules serious anymore.
really bad start for ATXIII |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
9139
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:15:44 -
[67] - Quote
Ok we are going to bring a triage archon and see if CCP notices.
Make them rematch or take the losers bracket imo. Or have their 2 captains battle it out 1v1 battleships. |
Officer Nyota Uhura
379
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:18:36 -
[68] - Quote
The level of childishness in this thread makes me all giddy. "Well now you gave PL the permission to drop their super fleet." No they didn't. "Now people can use 6% implants." No they can't. "Now you can drop a triage archon there." No you can't. One referee missed a call, that's that. In what sports a bad referee call leads to changing the rules? That's just dumb talk out of your ass.
I'd like to see a world cup soccer game re-played because the referee did a minor mistake. I'd like to see olympics ice hockey game result declared invalid because referee didn't notice a bad substitution at some point.
But please go on making yourselves look silly; your tears keep the rest of us fueled. |
lolcorpholder alt
Aliastra Gallente Federation
82
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:23:31 -
[69] - Quote
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:The level of childishness in this thread makes me all giddy. "Well now you gave PL the permission to drop their super fleet." No they didn't. "Now people can use 6% implants." No they can't. "Now you can drop a triage archon there." No you can't. One referee missed a call, that's that. In what sports a bad referee call leads to changing the rules? That's just dumb talk out of your ass.
I'd like to see a world cup soccer game re-played because the referee did a minor mistake. I'd like to see olympics ice hockey game result declared invalid because referee didn't notice a bad substitution at some point.
But please go on making yourselves look silly; your tears keep the rest of us fueled.
Except that it was two referees so far |
ChaeDoc II
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
115
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:25:59 -
[70] - Quote
It's a nonsense ruling but we're not going to get CCP to change their mind, and they shouldn't just because people don't like it.
What should happen now though is that some kind of penalty should still be applied to Together We Solo, like a 10 point penalty for their next match. The referees should have spotted it but them not doesn't mean TWS should get away with it without consequence. |
|
lolcorpholder alt
Aliastra Gallente Federation
82
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:32:46 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
Can you clarify that there will be no checks in place for this sunday? |
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards FUBAR.
695
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:34:25 -
[72] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:General Vachot wrote:I agree that a rematch as first match is best way to resolve this. Or at the very least if you don't plan to change the decision in any way then at leats award Gone critical 1 set of the BPC? The only issue I have with a rematch is that it exposes another one of both teams doctrines and may leave one or both of the teams short when they fight just a couple of hours later, giving them limited choices against any bans that occur in the later fight against us. That seems overly harsh on Gone Critical, who abided by the rules and don't deserve to be subject to a second fight for round one. If they lose the fight, they will end up right where they are now, but potentially without a doctrine they might otherwise be able to use. At the end of the day, it's the team's responsibility to abide by the rules of the tournament. Even in the case where a referee misses something, that is only there as a check of everything. It's still up to the teams to play according to the rules. So I think it's a bit harsh on Gone Critical to almost penalise them for doing the right thing, while allowing Together We Solo the opportunity to get away rewarded for their breach of the rules. Simply fixed. The match would be a do-over. Same ships same team members - Just placed on the field at the right start positions.
In fact if either team are given the option to use another doctrine it could bias the outcome. If Gone Critical was going to win with the doctrine they chose, they have that same chance in a rematch.
CCP made a bad call here. The tournament has rules, they need to be adhered to or the whole competition becomes a farce.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
lolcorpholder alt
Aliastra Gallente Federation
82
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:38:07 -
[73] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:General Vachot wrote:I agree that a rematch as first match is best way to resolve this. Or at the very least if you don't plan to change the decision in any way then at leats award Gone critical 1 set of the BPC? The only issue I have with a rematch is that it exposes another one of both teams doctrines and may leave one or both of the teams short when they fight just a couple of hours later, giving them limited choices against any bans that occur in the later fight against us. That seems overly harsh on Gone Critical, who abided by the rules and don't deserve to be subject to a second fight for round one. If they lose the fight, they will end up right where they are now, but potentially without a doctrine they might otherwise be able to use. At the end of the day, it's the team's responsibility to abide by the rules of the tournament. Even in the case where a referee misses something, that is only there as a check of everything. It's still up to the teams to play according to the rules. So I think it's a bit harsh on Gone Critical to almost penalise them for doing the right thing, while allowing Together We Solo the opportunity to get away rewarded for their breach of the rules. Simply fixed. The match would be a do-over. Same ships same team members - Just placed on the field at the right start positions. In fact if either team are given the option to use another doctrine it could bias the outcome. If Gone Critical was going to win with the doctrine they chose, they have that same chance in a rematch. CCP made a bad call here. The tournament has rules, they need to be adhered to or the whole competition becomes a farce.
Except both teams have probably analyzed their flying in that match and would now be way better prepared for the matchup, calling better primaries etc etc, so basically wouldn't be the same match anymore
|
Xola Zuni
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
18
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:55:20 -
[74] - Quote
Very bad call. Whether it was on purpose or not, it was a clear breach of rules.
It's not only that Gone Critical lost a match, they also lost 10 skins and their flagship.
At least a rematch (same comps) is due, I actually even think that Together We Solo deserves a forfeit loss as it seems like they did not inform CCP of their "mistake" before the match had started and were taking advantage from it.
With the double elimination system there is already enough room for second chances, as there will always be a losers bracket. So I do not see a single reason to be "nice" to rulebreakes. |
Tallardar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 08:56:22 -
[75] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Every year it's more stories like this.
No wonder people are losing interest.
The past few years have shown CCP aren't interested in running the AT, and if that's the case why would the players bother if the people running it don't care?
Pandemic Horde Tutorial Videos | Monthly Nullsec Recap
|
Ackaroth
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 09:08:19 -
[76] - Quote
Poor form. Here's to hoping this decision gets reversed. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39500
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 09:21:25 -
[77] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Simply fixed. The match would be a do-over. Same ships same team members - Just placed on the field at the right start positions. If CCP could spawn the ships with the same fittings for any that were killed, then that could work.
Logistics aren't as simple as informing teams just a couple of hours out that a rematch is on. So if CCP have the mechanics available to spawn everything that was killed, ready to go, then this would work.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
236
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 09:37:40 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
...the words fail me... |
5pitf1re
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 10:18:25 -
[79] - Quote
If I would be fielding an AT team I'd be boycotting the next matches until CCP reacts. |
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards FUBAR.
695
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 10:24:36 -
[80] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Simply fixed. The match would be a do-over. Same ships same team members - Just placed on the field at the right start positions. If CCP could spawn the ships with the same fittings for any that were killed, then that could work, putting aside the issue of one team breaking the rules and not having any consequence for that (whether it was deliberate or accidental, responsibility rests with the team, not the referees). Logistics aren't as simple as informing teams just a couple of hours out that a rematch is on. So if CCP have the mechanics available to spawn everything that was killed, ready to go, then this would work. CCP have the ability to refund a ship that is lost due to server outages or other events out of player control. Pretty sure they could spawn the ships that were lost during the original fight.
In fact it would be better if CCP spawned all ships involved on grid, so the respective pilot warps to it in his or her pod and boards it. This removes the chance of someone refitting a ship with knowledge from the previous fight of what they are facing. This is Eve, if you know exactly what you are facing in a coming fight, you fit to counter it.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
|
mallebrok silvestine
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 10:40:24 -
[81] - Quote
You break the rules YOU LOOSE
It is
As Simple As That. |
Archeras Umangiar
Guardians of the Galaxy Holdings Guardians of the Galaxy.
16
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 10:40:45 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
i am the co-captain for Nihilists social club.
Can CCP start to take this tourny seriously?
1. The number of rule breaks that haven't been punished is ... scary; to say the least. 2. No duality (i guess you cant do anything about that, but maybe we could have got access to the 3rd test server?) or you could have had Jove space systems running and closed to other teams for the participants. i mean they where a found work around for that. 3. The fact that the first week isnt properly streamed by CCP itself kinda confirmed my accusation.
i dont mean it bad, but that is how it makes CCP look like with all those **** up's/missing things |
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Spaceship Bebop
353
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:05:04 -
[83] - Quote
What a **** show.
"Those guys broke the rules and won, it's all good."
pew pew
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TrickyBlackSteel
Russia Caldari RUCA Emperor
27
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:15:01 -
[84] - Quote
just disqualify ,thats all,why bother.. |
Mai Khumm
Toronto EVE Online
679
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:30:09 -
[85] - Quote
Way to lower your standards!
*claps*
Toronto EVE Thread!
[email protected]
@Toronto_EVE
(ALT of CO-Host Azami Nevinyrall)
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5629
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:31:34 -
[86] - Quote
This is an extremely disappointing ruling on CCP's part.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Brainiac Avada
Roaming Crusaders
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:35:42 -
[87] - Quote
Let the losing team decide if they want a rematch. If they do, it should be arranged, and the outcome should trump the standing ruling. If the current ruling stands, CCP will continue down this descending spiral they keep throwing their selves down, as being lazy and unwilling to listen to the community. After all, who makes you your money?
On a side note, this was the first tournament I've watched. And I must say, the coverage was horrible. In this day and age of gaming, with a game as big as Eve is, we need professional commentary. I watched Sirsqueebles' stream, they did the best with what they had, and it was great. But the ACTUAL stream was very poorly executed. |
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
233
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:47:36 -
[88] - Quote
So uh, Jita monument? I'll bring the pitch forks. |
C' Luigi
Kumovi The G0dfathers
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:47:46 -
[89] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hey Guys
In match 14 between Together We Solo and Gone Critical, the Together We Solo team warped onto the field at 100km. The rules state that teams must warp in at a maximum of 50km.
In this case, the breach in the rules was not picked up by the referee, and the match played out with the Together We Solo team winning the match.
After review and discussion by the tournament team, we have decided to let the result of the match stand. We now have plans in place to improve the check for this in the tournament referee tools by the second weekend of play at latest.
Buddy, you just wrote on behalf of all ccp , that you made a HUUUUUGE mistake on not seeing that one team made a hard rule violation, and on top of all that, that you are incompetent , you are letting it go just like that, another ignorant decision. I just wanna say, i dont have any interest of winning either of these two teams, i just hate the injustice. And that not just injustice, your now making the precedent, and a big space for mistakes on any other team in future, they can just break the rule and call for this specific case.
PUNISH THE RULE BREAKERS PERIOD!
If you dont have a solution for this disgrace, dont go to ppl and tell them how you letting someone who broke the rules to just go unpunished, just repeat the match.
People are laughing to you. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
236
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 11:56:22 -
[90] - Quote
QUESTION FOR CCP: what will happen if another team warp to the field at 100km? "by mistake" ofc |
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handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
327
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 12:03:57 -
[91] - Quote
gascanu wrote:QUESTION FOR CCP: what will happen if another team warp to the field at 100km? "by mistake" ofc
nothing really, they can't treat another team differently based on the same rules. As long as you say it was an 'accident'. That is the issue with this ruling.
Baddest poster ever
|
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3251
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 12:12:03 -
[92] - Quote
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:The level of childishness in this thread makes me all giddy. "Well now you gave PL the permission to drop their super fleet." No they didn't. "Now people can use 6% implants." No they can't. "Now you can drop a triage archon there." No you can't. One referee missed a call, that's that. In what sports a bad referee call leads to changing the rules? That's just dumb talk out of your ass.
I'd like to see a world cup soccer game re-played because the referee did a minor mistake. I'd like to see olympics ice hockey game result declared invalid because referee didn't notice a bad substitution at some point.
But please go on making yourselves look silly; your tears keep the rest of us fueled.
I agree with this guy. Y'all are being dumb babbies.
However I would suggest that like in real-world sports where a refereee misses a foul or other incident, a penalty could be applied retrospectively to the side that infringed the rules - a "heal to 50%" applied at the beginning of the next match, or mandating that against their next opponents the team must warp at a specific range (and making this known to all in advance), or a one-match suspension for the player who initiated the warp are all examples of things that can be done now without the hassle and disruption of a full rematch. There are options on the table if CCP wants to fix this.
Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
|
Brainiac Avada
Roaming Crusaders
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 12:57:23 -
[93] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:I would suggest that like in real-world sports where a refereee misses a foul or other incident, a penalty could be applied retrospectively to the side that infringed the rules - a "heal to 50%" applied at the beginning of the next match, or mandating that against their next opponents the team must warp at a specific range (and making this known to all in advance), or a one-match suspension for the player who initiated the warp are all examples of things that can be done now without the hassle and disruption of a full rematch. There are options on the table if CCP wants to fix this.
I actually think these are some good options.
Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
|
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
1083
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 13:42:40 -
[94] - Quote
Both teams were contacted before the ruling was made (Together We Solo was informed, but did not respond before the ruling was made public). Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands.
This was a case of a referee mistake, and we are working hard to make sure this doesn't happen again. We don't like it when we miss things anymore than you guys do.
We are still considering providing compensation for losses to both teams (Gone Critical and Nulli Secunda) that were affected by referee error yesterday, but no decision has been made on the matter yet.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
|
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John Blathos
Motiveless Malignity Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 13:50:04 -
[95] - Quote
Setting "we didn't notice at the time so it is allowed" as the precedent is an exceptionally ******** idea.
Either run enough tournaments that your refs can have the vaguest idea of what is actually going on in the arena or correct the mistakes they are obviously going to make. |
EVE-Lotteries
EVE-Lotteries Corporation
23
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 13:54:42 -
[96] - Quote
There should be a rematch as the result would have been completely different !
You miss blink ? Come and play with us at EVE-Lotteries.com !
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C' Luigi
Kumovi The G0dfathers
21
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 13:55:30 -
[97] - Quote
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:The level of childishness in this thread makes me all giddy. "Well now you gave PL the permission to drop their super fleet." No they didn't. "Now people can use 6% implants." No they can't. "Now you can drop a triage archon there." No you can't. One referee missed a call, that's that. In what sports a bad referee call leads to changing the rules? That's just dumb talk out of your ass.
I'd like to see a world cup soccer game re-played because the referee did a minor mistake. I'd like to see olympics ice hockey game result declared invalid because referee didn't notice a bad substitution at some point.
But please go on making yourselves look silly; your tears keep the rest of us fueled.
This is the stupidest thing i've ever heard, 1st of all noone is whining, because i dont really care who won the match , either 1st or 2nd team. The only thing that bothers people here is the fact that a team made a hard rule breaking and not just they didnt get punished for that, they even got their victory valid, beside the fact that distance of 100km is much more then 50km , and that makes alot of difference. And no, this is not like a referee on a footbal match made mistake on giving penalty to one team because one of the players was simulating, this is like a referee on a footbal matched didnt notice that one team has 14 players, and other 11.
Everyone is making a big deal out of this, because this is not right thing to do. Noone's affraid of getting cheated by other team, becuase now every single team will pay attention , because ccp is incompetent of doing that, as we can all see. |
Talia Soucu
Janus Financial Group
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 14:03:35 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Both teams were contacted before the ruling was made (Together We Solo was informed, but did not respond before the ruling was made public). Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands.
That's not terribly important because the repercussions don't affect just those teams. Right now, there's no reason for any team to think that if they bring an illegal advantage (e.g. pirate implants, T2 drones), they'll get punished or that the advantage will be removed. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3257
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 14:18:41 -
[99] - Quote
Talia Soucu wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Both teams were contacted before the ruling was made (Together We Solo was informed, but did not respond before the ruling was made public). Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands. That's not terribly important because the repercussions don't affect just those teams. Right now, there's no reason for any team to think that if they bring an illegal advantage (e.g. pirate implants, T2 drones), they'll get punished or that the advantage will be removed. Except that if teams do try to gain an unfair advantage and CCP does spot it, they'll be punished.
But hey, I encourage all participants to try to sneak something illegal past the referees today and see what happens. I will go stock up on popcorn in the meantime.
Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
|
Ospie
a-Losers
22
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 14:44:32 -
[100] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:The level of childishness in this thread makes me all giddy. "Well now you gave PL the permission to drop their super fleet." No they didn't. "Now people can use 6% implants." No they can't. "Now you can drop a triage archon there." No you can't. One referee missed a call, that's that. In what sports a bad referee call leads to changing the rules? That's just dumb talk out of your ass.
I'd like to see a world cup soccer game re-played because the referee did a minor mistake. I'd like to see olympics ice hockey game result declared invalid because referee didn't notice a bad substitution at some point.
But please go on making yourselves look silly; your tears keep the rest of us fueled. I agree with this guy. Y'all are being dumb babbies. However I would suggest that like in real-world sports where a refereee misses a foul or other incident, a penalty could be applied retrospectively to the side that infringed the rules - a "heal to 50%" applied at the beginning of the next match, or mandating that against their next opponents the team must warp at a specific range (and making this known to all in advance), or a one-match suspension for the player who initiated the warp are all examples of things that can be done now without the hassle and disruption of a full rematch. There are options on the table if CCP wants to fix this.
Whoops, accidentally had some folk standing in the other half / brought an extra person on to the field at the start of the match of any sport would never cut it, no matter how ignorant the players are of the rules or if the ref missed it. The teams participating also have a responsibility to know the rules that they are playing under. Additionally this is giving Together We Solo complete benefit of the doubt that it was innocent / accidental, it isn't impossible for it to have been intentional.
This isn't a case of the ref missing a foul or penalty, this is the case of the match being skewed before it even began.
CCP Logibro wrote:Both teams were contacted before the ruling was made (Together We Solo was informed, but did not respond before the ruling was made public). Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands.
It doesn't actually matter whether Gone Critical were 'ok' with it despite being essentially double penalised for following the rules, their only crime being not noticing the infraction themselves, you're now setting a poor standard for the rest of the tournament and also allowing the potentially match changing infraction to go completely unpunished. |
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
912
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 14:44:49 -
[101] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Both teams were contacted before the ruling was made (Together We Solo was informed, but did not respond before the ruling was made public). Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands.
This was a case of a referee mistake, and we are working hard to make sure this doesn't happen again. We don't like it when we miss things anymore than you guys do.
We are still considering providing compensation for losses to both teams (Gone Critical and Nulli Secunda) that were affected by referee error yesterday, but no decision has been made on the matter yet. Whether they contest the ruling or not shouldn't matter. Every team in the AT is depending on this to be a fair contest where the rules are enforced. The more you shrug off rule violations, the more you throw the end result of the tournament into question. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings The WeHurt Initiative
3442
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 16:28:06 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands.
That is irrelevant. Whether these two teams are fine with your decision or not doesn't negate the fact that these sorts of rulings spit in the face of all AT participants.
Enforce your own rules, please.
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Talia Soucu
Janus Financial Group
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 16:58:43 -
[103] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Talia Soucu wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Both teams were contacted before the ruling was made (Together We Solo was informed, but did not respond before the ruling was made public). Neither team has contested the ruling or otherwise asked us to review our decision, so the original decision stands. That's not terribly important because the repercussions don't affect just those teams. Right now, there's no reason for any team to think that if they bring an illegal advantage (e.g. pirate implants, T2 drones), they'll get punished or that the advantage will be removed. Except that if teams do try to gain an unfair advantage and CCP does spot it, they'll be punished.
Sure, if they spot it at the time. So far, they've failed to spot 2 instances of rule breaking and they've given no punishment after the fact in either case.
There should be no question that fielding something against the rules is a bad strategy, either because CCP will see it and remove it or, if they don't see it during the match, you'll get punished after the fact. There's no assurance of that right now.
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Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
664
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 18:11:57 -
[104] - Quote
I have no problem with how this was handled. The tournament is an analogue for a sporting event. Mistakes are made all the time at sporting events. Reversals of game outcomes because of referee mistakes is pretty much unheard of. Same with replaying matches. It's better to just carry on with the tournament, learn from mistakes, improve the tools, and maybe reimburse the ships than try to retroactively "make it right" or "punish" players who probably accidentally warped at 100 instead of 50.
It's a game inside a game, and the show must go on. Everyone trolling CCP on this issue with slippery slope fallacies should just let it go.
http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
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Tallardar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2015.08.16 18:42:46 -
[105] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:I have no problem with how this was handled. The tournament is an analogue for a sporting event. Mistakes are made all the time at sporting events. Reversals of game outcomes because of referee mistakes is pretty much unheard of. Same with replaying matches. It's better to just carry on with the tournament, learn from mistakes, improve the tools, and maybe reimburse the ships than try to retroactively "make it right" or "punish" players who probably accidentally warped at 100 instead of 50.
It's a game inside a game, and the show must go on. Everyone trolling CCP on this issue with slippery slope fallacies should just let it go.
Except, you know, there are examples in real sports where matches are reversed because of a blatantly bad referee failure that gives one side an advantage arbitrarily.
If you think people are annoyed that CCP gave an advantage to a team, which arguably let them win, and then said "yeah but its nbd because no one noticed" is trolling then you have a very unique way of defining that term.
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Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
664
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Posted - 2015.08.16 18:57:06 -
[106] - Quote
Tallardar wrote:
Except, you know, there are examples in real sports where matches are reversed because of a blatantly bad referee failure that gives one side an advantage arbitrarily.
Not really. Reversing a match based on a referee call is a *****-ass move, and a very rare one (in the US at least). If you have a few links to sports stories backing up your assertion I'd love to see them.
Quote: If you think people are annoyed that CCP gave an advantage to a team, which arguably let them win, and then said "yeah but its nbd because no one noticed" is trolling then you have a very unique way of defining that term.
Being annoyed is one thing, but what I'm talking about are the ridiculous slippery slope doom-and-gloom statements about "what this means" for the "reputation and dignity" of the tournament, etc. Be annoyed. But CCP is handling this in a perfectly reasonable manner given the context and actual facts. Saying it is a precursor to teams being allowed to get away with intentional and blatant cheating is a stretch.
http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1026
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Posted - 2015.08.16 21:04:41 -
[107] - Quote
In the analogy of sporting matches one can also safely assume that reorganising and rehosting/running them costs much more (in time and money) than a rematch in this game. Seeing how polarizing this particular match/ruling was part of me thinks this would automatically make it a great event to watch. ;)
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
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Tallardar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2015.08.16 23:00:50 -
[108] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:
Not really. Reversing a match based on a referee call is a *****-ass move, and a very rare one (in the US at least). If you have a few links to sports stories backing up your assertion I'd love to see them.
There are numerous examples of sports overruling the result of a match.
Example of a referee's poor decision being overturned:
http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/3/26/8295181/brazilian-commission-leandro-silva-vs-drew-dober-overturned-ruled-a
Example of judges decision being overturned:
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7128840/bernard-hopkins-gets-title-back-decision-overturned-technical-draw
Example of a match that was ruled in one side's favor being overturned after it was revealed one or both parties used illegal substances:
http://www.mmamania.com/2015/2/6/7992549/no-contest-anderson-silvas-victory-over-nick-diaz-at-ufc-183
There are also dozens of examples of how you can also overturn a referees call both during and after a game occurs. The NFL is an example of how a referee can say "this is a penalty" and a team challenges it and can have that referees call put into question. So, yeah those are some preliminary examples.
And as someone said above, this is a digital game and re-doing the match isn't as difficult as re-doing a real world sports match. To compare the two in that regard is pretty silly.
Quote:But CCP is handling this in a perfectly reasonable manner given the context and actual facts.
A team was given an unfair advantage and won as a result. The event organizers then said, in response to that issue being pointed out, "the result stands as neither we nor the other team said anything about it before the match started."
The GC Vigilant has a 50km lock range (1) and started the match at 0km, as did the rest of his team (2). The rules for the tournament state that "once word is given, teams warp in to the arena beacon specified, at a range of their choosing, up to a maximum of 50 km." (3). It's pretty clear GC's team, due to the killmails, were designed around a closer range fight that doesn't account for 50km extra warp in range because a referee failed to do the job they were assigned to do. In essence, extra time was given for the TWS setup to apply damage that the 50km range would not have allowed for since GC had to burn longer to get to their targets.
So, given the context and facts of the match, the fittings used, and the unenforced rules, it's pretty simple to see how CCP's decision isn't that logical whatsoever. What's equally comical after this comment by CCP is that they're "considering" giving GC a reward of some sort for being screwed by referees not able to do their job, and CCP deciding that the match was a loss despite the unfair advantage given by their officials.
1 - https://zkillboard.com/kill/48486008/) 2 - https://null-sec.com/atxiii/#/replay/13/0 3 - http://community.eveonline.com/community/alliance-tournament/rules/
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Officer Nyota Uhura
383
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Posted - 2015.08.17 00:08:42 -
[109] - Quote
Tallardar wrote: Wall of text
Lol given how you guys were sent back to school today, it looks like you're much better in forum posting than pvp. |
Tallardar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2015.08.17 02:29:12 -
[110] - Quote
Imagine that, a new player alliance not amazing at the AT. Sick burn brah.
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Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
28
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Posted - 2015.08.17 03:24:48 -
[111] - Quote
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:Tallardar wrote: Wall of text
Lol given how you guys were sent back to school today, it looks like you're much better in forum posting than pvp. Hahaha, so funny when people who can't pvp complain about others forum posting instead of pvping.
You're an idiot:
https://zkillboard.com/character/91167579/ |
Officer Nyota Uhura
383
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Posted - 2015.08.17 07:36:27 -
[112] - Quote
duh |
Officer Nyota Uhura
383
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Posted - 2015.08.17 07:37:50 -
[113] - Quote
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote: Well, I gave them a good fight in my baws armor-and-hull-remorepping insta-warping cloaky cyno crusader. Would have brought that to AT13 too. |
maCH'EttE
Furnace
186
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Posted - 2015.08.17 17:19:35 -
[114] - Quote
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS. The rules are there for a reason, whether it was done on purpuse or not, whether one team gained a advantage or not. The rules are their for a reason. If the rules were broken, no matter who it is, action must be taken. Not taking action, just f'en devalues of the rules, the tournament, the effort of all the refs, players, watchers, commenters. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS. sorry trans. |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
400
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 18:33:27 -
[115] - Quote
If both teams "agree" to warp in at 100 next week, is that kosher? As long as they "both agree"
What if both teams agree to have 5% implants or extra remote reps?
I mean if the teams "both agree" on the rules for the match i guess its okay right? |
Karle Tabot
State War Academy Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2015.08.17 18:43:02 -
[116] - Quote
I really enjoy these matches, and greatly appreciate all you guys do to provide it. In fact I was disappointed that you shortened it this year. But oh well, I will take what you graciously provide, and be thankful.
But sorry CCP, I have to challenge you on this. I have no dog in this fight and no ISK bet on any of the fights to this point. I do not know any of the people, teams or entities involved.
This is a game where there is rampant scamming, cheating, lying, etc. I know there is the majority that just love that, and its part of the game. But I thought Alliance Tournament rules were an exception. Apparently, they are not.
It really now seems there are not even any Alliance Tournament rules. All there are at most is whatever rule the highest ranking official at the time in issue says is the rule, and then only so long as he or she remains in charge and does not change his or her mind.
This type thing is not good for the game or any of the parties involved in the long run, and as hard as it is to deal with it in the proper way of either requiring a rematch, or declaring the violator the loser, that is the only way not to taint the whole Tournament. I think it was a simple mistake, and I make mistakes every day. I hope I do not compound them though, as is being done by this current stance on violation of the rules. |
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
532
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Posted - 2015.08.17 19:47:49 -
[117] - Quote
la la la can't hear you....
I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4265
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Posted - 2015.08.17 22:21:29 -
[118] - Quote
Tallardar wrote:Quote:But CCP is handling this in a perfectly reasonable manner given the context and actual facts. A team was given an unfair advantage and won as a result. The event organizers then said, in response to that issue being pointed out, "the result stands as neither we nor the other team said anything about it before the match started." The GC Vigilant has a 50km lock range (1) and started the match at 0km, as did the rest of his team (2). The rules for the tournament state that "once word is given, teams warp in to the arena beacon specified, at a range of their choosing, up to a maximum of 50 km." (3). It's pretty clear GC's team, due to the killmails, were designed around a closer range fight that doesn't account for 50km extra warp in range because a referee failed to do the job they were assigned to do. In essence, extra time was given for the TWS setup to apply damage that the 50km range would not have allowed for since GC had to burn longer to get to their targets. So, given the context and facts of the match, the fittings used, and the unenforced rules, it's pretty simple to see how CCP's decision isn't that logical whatsoever. What's equally comical after this comment by CCP is that they're "considering" giving GC a reward of some sort for being screwed by referees not able to do their job, and CCP deciding that the match was a loss despite the unfair advantage given by their officials. 1 - https://zkillboard.com/kill/48486008/)2 - https://null-sec.com/atxiii/#/replay/13/0 3 - http://community.eveonline.com/community/alliance-tournament/rules/
Tallardar, I picking on you because your post so clearly shows a thorough lack of understanding of the fight. Don't feel bad about it though, as there are a shitload of Moron's QQ about the results without looking or understanding the situation. You all really should look at the advantage provided within context of that particular match.
If I had to guess at how the fight played out, rather than look at the replay from Null-sec.com, I'd probably assume your assessment of the context was correct. But you obviously did not pay very close attention to that replay, because the extra distance made very little change in the match.
To summarize the match:
GC rushed the TWS comp off the bat, primarying a Widow. TWS first primaried the Rook, which the GC onieros kept alive just fine. TWS then primaried the Onieros, and that GC ship tanked the incoming dps just fine. Meanwhile, GC moved all their DPS ships to their optimal ranges and slowly ground through thea TWS Widow, killing it and the Ibis about 2 minutes into the fight. GC then took some time splitting damage between the RS and the basi for about 15 seconds, but soon thereafter focused almost all their offense on the Basilisk by 2:20 into the fight. Shortly before TWS lost their Widow, they swapped damage to the Geddon, and attempted unsuccessfully to kill it through Onieros reps. At about 3 minutes into the fight, GC was still trying to kill the Basi (who may have been bait tanking) while TWS swapped damage to the GC blackbird. The blackbird didn't receive reps until already in very low armor, despite being right next to the Geddon who was receiving reps at the time instead. The GC Blackbird died at 3:40 seconds into the fight, at which time GC realized the futility of attacking the Basi and swapped all dps to a TWS SNI. TWS swapped back to the Geddon for 30 seconds, and suddenly swapped targets to the Navy Exeq. The Navy Exeq caught some reps, but not enough to save it dying 4:55s into the match. TWS then primaried the Vigilant, who died 40 seconds later having received no reps support at all. Meanwhile, GC was having moderate success grinding through the SNI's tank, especially when the Rook got off on the occasional successful jam on the TWS Basi. When the Vigilant when down the Basi also became unjammed, which was a serendipitous timing that allowed the Basi to save the SNI. Despite that, GC almost killed the SNI again when another successful jam took out the Basi reps, TWS killed the rook after the vigilant and safely won the match thereafter.
So, why did GC lose?
Frankly, the GC Onieros pilot did not manage his RR ideally, often not focusing his repping power on his primaried fleetmate. The Oni reps often didn't land on the BB or Navy Exeq unil hulls are in deep armor, and he never bothered to rep the Vigilant or Rook. Realize, those hulls all have historically weak armor resists profiles, meaning they'd be extra squishy and harder to save.
So why did the warp in not matter? 1.) By the time TWS applied its damage to a GC target that mattered (i.e.the blackbird at about 3 minutes in), GC had full control of their positioning. That's enough time for an Onieros to slowboat 50 km's, which is within medium repper range, let alone the 75 km's rep range of large reppers.
2.) At the time of their first loss, TWS had a completely stable presence on field, with the basilisk having tanked the entire GC team for almost 80 seconds with no success.
Their failure to kill another ship after the Widow & Ibis had everything to do with their choice in applying their damage and EWAR, and NOTHING to do with the warp in ranges or the time lost burning in to apply DPS. It is simply wrong to say the advantage TWS had from a 100 km warp in resulted in them winning the match.
What I want to know, is how could the match have started without GC pointing out the inappropriate warp in range? That makes no sense to me! Of all the people on field, it should have been most obvious to them, and I really don't understand why no one said something in local during the 60s prior to the match. |
Callduron
Kite Co. Space Trucking Brave Collective
621
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Posted - 2015.08.17 23:08:38 -
[119] - Quote
I'm very much a pragmatist.
Rescheduling an extra game into an already furious schedule seems too much hassle to be dealing with in an already packed weekend.
So I think the realististic options are:
1) Let the result stand (Because the losing and cheated against party didn't object to this).
2) Disqualify the team that won, awarding the result to the other side.
My experience as a new captain is that it's just so easy to **** things up. I've fleet warped to the wrong range before in our practice matches or we've all individually warped and people have come to the wrong range.
Brave was within a hair of getting penalised in our first match. I had set up my overview to be laser-focused on arena combat and when I was asked to warp us in I realised I didn't have a tab with the beacons on it. I had to go to my tab with everything on it, right click, remove moons from overview, right click, remove belts, frantically scanning to see if I could see the beacon yet, I finally spotted it and warped us just as a rather impatient CCP Mimic was threatening to warp us at zero.
So I'm inclined to be sympathetic towards the captain who made the mistake as long as the losing team does not object. If they do object, it should be a disqualification, not a rematch.
If it were my team in that situation I'd be honest about whether it affected the result, discussing it with my squad and if we felt it made no different we wouldn't try to game a win by rules lawyering.
I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/
I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
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Soul-on-Ice
Doughboys Snuffed Out
54
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Posted - 2015.08.18 04:44:30 -
[120] - Quote
so the losing team didn't know the rules either? ..didnt say anything before the countdown finished and the match started?
if you dont say something before the match starts what do you expect?
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Elig
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation Holy Arumbian Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 16:36:26 -
[121] - Quote
CCP's decision in this is hilariously bad.
Imagine a StarCraft 2 match where one competitor was allowed to confer with a coach for an unfair advantage and the organizer said "well they did cheat, but after consideration we'll have the match stand without any penalty applied because our referee didn't know that wasn't allowed." |
Tallardar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
14
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Posted - 2015.08.18 16:48:53 -
[122] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:So why did the warp in not matter? 1.) By the time TWS applied its damage to a GC target that mattered (i.e.the blackbird at about 3 minutes in), GC had full control of their positioning. That's enough time for an Onieros to slowboat 50 km's, which is within medium repper range, let alone the 75 km's rep range of large reppers.
What I want to know, is how could the match have started without GC pointing out the inappropriate warp in range? That makes no sense to me! Of all the people on field, it should have been most obvious to them, and I really don't understand why no one said something in local during the 60s prior to the match.
Except the extra 50km bought TWS extra time to not receive any damage from GC that would have not occurred if they were at the maximum 50km range. At 50km starting, the GC ships wouldn't have needed to spend as much time burning towards TWS to apply damage, effectively the starting time between being able to apply damage on GC's part was doubled. You can spin it however you want, but that's certainly a factor in the outcome of the match.
Also the onus isn't solely on GC to call out a violation of the rules. TWS supposedly were aware of the rules as well given that they've spent the past few months prepping their comps and skirmishes around those rules. It's also CCP's job to enforce the rules with their referees on field. The excuse shared by TWS's captain that, "oh we didn't know 100km warp ins aren't allowed" is pretty weak. It's like an NFL player going "oh I didn't know holding wasn't allowed." No one is going to buy that because you have spent your time practicing with the rules of the game enforced. GC could have called it out sure, but again it's not their sole responsibility when the other two parties are supposed to know the rules as well.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4266
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:44:03 -
[123] - Quote
Tallardar wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:So why did the warp in not matter? 1.) By the time TWS applied its damage to a GC target that mattered (i.e.the blackbird at about 3 minutes in), GC had full control of their positioning. That's enough time for an Onieros to slowboat 50 km's, which is within medium repper range, let alone the 75 km's rep range of large reppers.
What I want to know, is how could the match have started without GC pointing out the inappropriate warp in range? That makes no sense to me! Of all the people on field, it should have been most obvious to them, and I really don't understand why no one said something in local during the 60s prior to the match. Except the extra 50km bought TWS extra time to not receive any damage from GC that would have not occurred if they were at the maximum 50km range. At 50km starting, the GC ships wouldn't have needed to spend as much time burning towards TWS to apply damage, effectively the starting time between being able to apply damage on GC's part was doubled. You can spin it however you want, but that's certainly a factor in the outcome of the match. Also the onus isn't solely on GC to call out a violation of the rules. TWS supposedly were aware of the rules as well given that they've spent the past few months prepping their comps and skirmishes around those rules. It's also CCP's job to enforce the rules with their referees on field. The excuse shared by TWS's captain that, "oh we didn't know 100km warp ins aren't allowed" is pretty weak. It's like an NFL player going "oh I didn't know holding wasn't allowed." No one is going to buy that because you have spent your time practicing with the rules of the game enforced. GC could have called it out sure, but again it's not their sole responsibility when the other two parties are supposed to know the rules as well.
I think you are overestimating the damage projection that TWS had. Sure, their Cruise Missile fit SNI's could hit that far, but the rattlesnake dps was lacking at that range. And to be frank, the Rattlesnake's drones apply much more dps to a fast moving cruiser than cruise missiles from two SNI's.
Had the appropriate penalty action been taken by CCP, the entire TWS team would have been moved to zero, and I don't think we know enough to accurately call the outcome. Target calling would probably have changed, and I doubt Oni reps would have held with the additional damage from the Rattlesnake. Additionally, I'm pretty sure the Basi would still have tanked the entire GC team (since it already demonstrated it could!). The big wild card is Jams. Neither Widow nor Rook jams are very effective at 100 km's, as only the BB had a jam range bonus.
In my analysis of the match, GC had the upper hand until 3 minutes into the match, despite any advantage the TWS warp in provided. GC then lost the upper hand when their target calling and EWAR application resulted in poorly applied damage, while TWS identified the weak points in GC's composition and capitalized on it. I don't dispute that the match would have been different had corrective action been taken, but GC did NOT lose the match because of the abnormal TWS warp in. |
Bird Flu Vulnero
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
9
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Posted - 2015.08.18 19:00:17 -
[124] - Quote
CCP ******* up isn't new to this years tourney. Last year they warped the other team to us before the match giving them free info on our comp. Instead of letting us reship or something they just let the match go on and the other team just happened to come in at max range even with their frigate wing and pick our blaster team apart at range. But at least CCP is posting about this kind of stuff this year we didn't even get a sorry. |
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2015.08.23 14:33:05 -
[125] - Quote
The assumption why the decision was left standing was probably; "They brought a turtle we look at DPS graphs and think they cannot break them." Thing is; **** ups happen and turtles can easily be smashed if you just bring enough DPS, primary the right target and neuts also help... |
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