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PKenO	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:30:00 - [241] IRL spies face: Execution A life, their only life, spent in secrets and in the shadow of what they've done. Ingame spies face: The difference in isk between their spy character sold a new character with same SP bought. Yes, I see how there is a comparison to be made. All these claims of "trust" "corp roles given out easily" are full of crap. You can marry a woman today and there is a 51% chance she will divorce you in the worst way. Yet a CEO is supposed to find someone who will never ever betray you at all even though it will cost him little and gain him BILLIONs in isk not to mention the joy of inflicting a massive emotional wound on someone they might not like anymore. I say "never ever" because anything less than "never ever" means they can betray you. Under the "it works fine" mechanics, when that time comes, you lose months or years of work that hundreds of people worked on, all because some guy decided he was done with Eve or the corp. Yes there are spies IRL. They fool massive efforts to find and uncover them. They fool everyone around them. But apparently, your average gamer is supposed to know they're shifty based on chat. Dont give me that "they have to contribute to the corp" crap. All conmen invest a little to gain a lot.
Ardrivis	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:32:00 - [242] Originally by: Fitz Chivalry Originally by: LUKEC Because maybe it's beyond your understanding. Unless the answer involves the way to bring three exotic dancers to simultaneous orgasm I highly doubt that. What... you can't do that? :)
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:44:00 - [243] Originally by: Christopher Multsanti BOB offlined the towers so they can say they won again. Is anyone really suprised? BOB have no class. We out carebear the carebears We out pvp the pvpers We out play the players. No one in a game has class or honor, because its just a game afterall. remember that cool board game... RISK... yeah I thought soo.. At the end of the day nothing matters but who survived. Rest assured, whatever anyone does in this game, we do it better.
posix4e Caldari The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:49:00 - [244] I have class and honor. That doesn't mean I wont use spies or traitors. That would be missing the point of what I am saying. :)
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:51:00 - [245] Originally by: PKenO Yes, I see how there is a comparison to be made. All these claims of "trust" "corp roles given out easily" are full of crap. You can marry a woman today and there is a 51% chance she will divorce you in the worst way. Yet a CEO is supposed to find someone who will never ever betray you at all even though it will cost him little and gain him BILLIONs in isk not to mention the joy of inflicting a massive emotional wound on someone they might not like anymore. Now you just realized that it requires more to be a good CEO then to be a headhoncho with a big ego. For a corp there is no need to give out roles to many ppl. Eve offers the opportunity to form social groups but its no pink pandaland. There will always be guys who try to abuse the trust no matter who they belong to or what motives they have. Just make sure as a CEO that ure always 1 step ahead of them. Either by not granting them roles or by removing roles when someone looks suspicious. As you said its always better to lose a single member over beeing too carefull then to lose months worth of work over sloppyness. On a sidenote many corps are formed from a group of rl friends or ppl who play with each other for some time. Chances of a corptheft in such an environment are quiet low. Giving guys youve never met irl and you havent played together with for x years access to the most intimate parts of your corp is asking to be robbed blind. No matter how the motivation behind the assetrelocation is. Btw i suggest you read up about Hadean Drive Yards and Kia corp (?). Both were at a time robbed blind and recovered. There is much pride in coming back from such a blow aswell..... However they have learned from their lessons and revamped their trust and security system, something long overdue in EDF and ASCN. Especially after reading ASCN latest recruiting thread i feel that john might need to rethink his strategy again.... Recruiting in wartimes asks for spies and golddiggers....
the Poet Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:02:00 - [246] So you have spies but whine because ours are better. You whine being backstabbed when you alliance was built by backstabbers. Whine cuse other corps are attacking you when you cry like *****es on these forums every day for people to attack bob. I know we are having fun bleeding you slowly but when you finally die no one will feel the least bit sad for you. AZN will be named the Coolaid Factory or Monument to the biggest joke of an alliance ever. 6 months and I still have no face :\
RyanS Amarr Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:10:00 - [247] We are not whinne... we just point out the fact that bob anit good pvper as they claim to be..... it has be proven time after time bob CAN'T do **** without their spies and thieves.... that's all we are trying to say
posix4e Caldari The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:12:00 - [248] First off thanks to the constructive post people, namely Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five I am willing to keep my mind open to the idea that this type of game play should be tolerated by the eve community. In the sense that loggoffski's/ logon traps, etc are not. TSYND knows quite well about corp thieves, and I am aware of those corps. Thankyou for the useful reference. The problem is not so much the money, I think it is the tactical advantage of gaining foot holds with spies. 1) ASCN didn't have a recent invitee steal from them so all of your recruitment during wartime bad stuff doesn't apply to this thread. It is a seperate point. However, I would like to point out the effects of recruitment during wartime for my corp a) We have no additional threat due to spies(we know how far we are already owned) b) We have become stronger as a corp c) I have hung out with cool people from all over the world, that I would not have if we didn't recruit them. 2) On RL friends. I don't think an alliance like ASCN would have ever done anything interesting if this were the requirements. BTW I would not be able to join any corp as none of my RL friends play eve. Probably no one over 30 would play eve. Does that sound like a good idea, lets limit eve 0.0 to 1% of its current popultion. Bob would say so, but that is because they think that would be a funny comment. Not because they really thought about the future of this game. 3) This type of game play does not add to the game in general. Spies and traitors are cool, until it completely ruins any chance for a decent large war. Frankly if this accepted how many ALliances would believe that there POS managers could wistand me offerening them 2000 dollar bribes and new high sp chars? :)
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:13:00 - [249] Originally by: the Poet AZN will be named the Coolaid Factory or Monument to the biggest joke of an alliance ever. Monument to BoB? Hm, okay. I agree that cheaters are a joke, but I'm surprised you'd admit that.
the Poet Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:26:00 - [250] Edited by: the Poet on 11/12/2006 01:26:43 Originally by: RyanS We are not whinne... we just point out the fact that bob anit good pvper as they claim to be..... it has be proven time after time bob CAN'T do ** without their spies and thieves.... that's all we are trying to say You, my fellow no-face friend, are one clown short of a circus. Originally by:** Kaell Meynn Originally by: the Poet AZN will be named the Coolaid Factory or Monument to the biggest joke of an alliance ever. Monument to BoB? Hm, okay. I agree that cheaters are a joke, but I'm surprised you'd admit that. LOL you got me there man I was hoping to sneak that one past you, but I guess you are the sharpest alt in the drawer. Now did you think of that one yourself or did the other gorilla in your cage help out? 6 months and I still have no face :\

Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:32:00 - [251] Originally by: posix4e 1) ASCN didn't have a recent invitee steal from them so all of your recruitment during wartime bad stuff doesn't apply to this thread. It is a seperate point. However, I would like to point out the effects of recruitment during wartime for my corp a) We have no additional threat due to spies(we know how far we are already owned) b) We have become stronger as a corp c) I have hung out with cool people from all over the world, that I would not have if we didn't recruit them. Recruiting ppl is never a wrong thing, however you have to be very carefull when doing so. I dont understand the statement about "new members havent stolen from us" because frankly i was more leaning towards the spy / traitor edge there. Unless uncovered u never know who sells out information, or ? So you wouldnt really know who the bob spies are unless their cover gets blown. Quote: 2) On RL friends. I don't think an alliance like ASCN would have ever done anything interesting if this were the requirements. BTW I would not be able to join any corp as none of my RL friends play eve. Probably no one over 30 would play eve. Does that sound like a good idea, lets limit eve 0.0 to 1% of its current popultion. Bob would say so, but that is because they think that would be a funny comment. Not because they really thought about the future of this game. I didnt say that alliances can ONLY be build from rl relationships but i said that i know a good bunch of corps/alliances who were formed this way and corps/alliances also offering rl meetings to forge a stronger bond between its members. Such events are great to have the eye to eye contact and the beers you were speaking about and to forge friendships beyond the avatar. Its no gurantee you wont get tossed over tho. As for the age limit you brought up, i know alot of ppl in bob are above that level. Some more some less however beeing smart, carefull and social ontop of having a good recruitment officer who knows his/her job helps out alot. Quote: 3) This type of game play does not add to the game in general. Spies and traitors are cool, until it completely ruins any chance for a decent large war. Frankly if this accepted how many ALliances would believe that there POS managers could wistand me offerening them 2000 dollar bribes and new high sp chars? Youre crossing a fine line there. You are mixing up roleplaying with rl again. Some ppl like to play a traitor, an operative or a spy. Hell some like to be a thief or a pirate. In other games ppl are priests, shamans and cows. lol. Eve offers the opportunity for a smart single operative to do alot of damage however the damage he can do is not within his reach. Sloppyness and stupidity are what plays in his hands and makes his work easier and more damaging. Other ppl, some even in your own alliance presented solutions to the problem at hand, namely spreading out tower control over multiple corps and setting pws. John even pointed out himself how important role control and auditing is. He just wasnt carefull about it. In addition Ascn leadership admitted more then once they have their own spy network so how would a bob offlining operative do less damage then an ascn agent relaying the info of a bob egg hatching which is sucessfully interfered with the egg destroyed ? Dont tell me your hc wouldnt grab that opportunity if it would arise....
SlasherD Gallente The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:33:00 - [252] Edited by: SlasherD on 11/12/2006 01:37:10 Edited by: SlasherD on 11/12/2006 01:35:49 Originally by: the Poet Edited by: the Poet on 11/12/2006 01:26:43 You, my fellow no-face friend, are one clown short of a circus. Is that you on the BOB killboard?
Afonso Henriques Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:34:00 - [253] Originally by: Marogian You've just destroyed 2 months of propaganda and smear campaigns against ASCNs High Command, you've shown the entire Eve Community that everything CYVOK and John have been saying is true. LOL! If you believe what they re saying is true, you've got more problem than bob tbh. Plus, I love that ASCN is crying enough E-tears to fill a virtual lake.
Agent Kenshin Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:35:00 - [254] Originally by: RyanS We are not whinne... we just point out the fact that bob anit good pvper as they claim to be..... it has be proven time after time bob CAN'T do **** without their spies and thieves.... that's all we are trying to say Ok im sorry this just confuses me. What happened in Paragon Soul? What happened to all those dreads youve lost? Are you telling me that BoB suck at combat and that lag killed all those ships?? And PvP is a completely different grasp. In terms of player vs player they are doing very well. Even if it is offlining POS and everything else as its a player vs player event. -----
RyanS Amarr Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:36:00 - [255] Originally by: the Poet Edited by: the Poet on 11/12/2006 01:26:43 Originally by: RyanS We are not whinne... we just point out the fact that bob anit good pvper as they claim to be..... it has be proven time after time bob CAN'T do **** without their spies and thieves.... that's all we are trying to say You, my fellow no-face friend, are one clown short of a circus. Said by a bob LOL
pershphanie Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:36:00 - [256] Edited by: pershphanie on 11/12/2006 01:40:03 Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 10/12/2006 15:59:06 All rationalizing of spys via the use of alts is an insult to any semi intelligent person who still thinks EVE is a game. I have first hand knowledge CE uses spys too. Infact you had spys in ASCN when you were fighting them. Your own alliance leadership used these spus to gain an advantage in that war and I'm sure every other. Infact they even gave me an ASCN/EDF forum account. Think the use of spys is undefendable? Then quit your corp and alliance. Or maybe its just time to step off your soap box. It's easy to criticize how others fight a war when you don't fight in wars yourself. Originally by: CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
RyanS Amarr Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:39:00 - [257] Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 11/12/2006 01:37:00 Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 10/12/2006 15:59:06 All rationalizing of spys via the use of alts is an insult to any semi intelligent person who still thinks EVE is a game. I have first hand knowledge CE uses spys too. Infact you had spys in ASCN when you were fighting them. Your own alliance leadership used these to gain an advantage. Infact they even gave me an ASCN/EDF forum account. Think the use of spys is undefendable? Then quit your corp and alliance. Or maybe its just time to step off your soap box... no body is claim to be best pvper and RELY on spies and thieves at the same time.... THAT'S THE FACT!!! got it?
Hellcore Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:56:00 - [258] It amazes me how many people fail to know that a pendulum is supposed to swing both ways. Though this on old clock it seems to be stuck in place, so we decided to swing it back towards us a little as you have been so dull in AZN, Paragon, Period Basis, Delve and Fountain. Let the fight for 0oy begin, or are you just going to continue to make excuses as we continue to use the wheels of war to crush you?
Hast Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:58:00 - [259] Originally by: RyanS Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 11/12/2006 01:37:00 Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 10/12/2006 15:59:06 All rationalizing of spys via the use of alts is an insult to any semi intelligent person who still thinks EVE is a game. I have first hand knowledge CE uses spys too. Infact you had spys in ASCN when you were fighting them. Your own alliance leadership used these to gain an advantage. Infact they even gave me an ASCN/EDF forum account. Think the use of spys is undefendable? Then quit your corp and alliance. Or maybe its just time to step off your soap box... no body is claim to be best pvper and RELY on spies and thieves at the same time.... THAT'S THE FACT!!! got it? whaa whaaa whaaa spies are lame whaaaaa Originally by: Madeye McGreedy At this time we have some suspects, some of which have come from a BoB corp's forum (yes spys, we have spys in BoB as well and access to your forum wha wha time over?
Dracorimus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:01:00 - [260] Mommy the bad men in bob got one over on us again...not fair !!! waaaaa waaaaa -

RyanS Amarr Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:01:00 - [261] Originally by: Uinein Originally by: RyanS Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 11/12/2006 01:37:00 Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 10/12/2006 15:59:06 All rationalizing of spys via the use of alts is an insult to any semi intelligent person who still thinks EVE is a game. I have first hand knowledge CE uses spys too. Infact you had spys in ASCN when you were fighting them. Your own alliance leadership used these to gain an advantage. Infact they even gave me an ASCN/EDF forum account. Think the use of spys is undefendable? Then quit your corp and alliance. Or maybe its just time to step off your soap box... no body is claim to be best pvper and RELY on spies and thieves at the same time.... THAT'S THE FACT!!! got it? So you are saying that if the rules where the same for everyone and it was a controlled enviroment where devs could watch for cheating BoB wouldn't come out on top? there is chance for bob to come on top just as every other alliance in this game. hope that answered ur question
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:06:00 - [262] Edited by: Baun on 11/12/2006 02:07:37 Originally by: Christopher Multsanti BOB offlined the towers so they can say they won again. Is anyone really suprised? BOB have no class. Indeed they don't. This has happened a great many times. Before Metal Dude or some other foaming forum cowboy starts the usual schpiel with me just consider the following: Resorting to these sorts of tactics undercuts any notion that you will have won solely becuase you are better at any aspect of the game other than being underhanded. Being underhanded certainly is an aspect of the game and it can be a very important aspect. You have, however, robbed yourself of an even remotely "clean" victory. You can no longer come out of this claiming to have won just because you are a better combination of fighting and logistics. Winning at all costs is fine but don't conveniently forget what you have done when you look back on this. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:07:00 - [263] Edited by: Lord Draco on 11/12/2006 02:07:31 Originally by: XoPhyte [ Lol, I would say the same to you. How many pos's in fey have you taken down? Oh, thats right 0, even with your supposed uber skills. 0, remember that number. I have no problem with you guys using spys or even taking the station. But trying to spin it as "you guys took the station" is laughable. You guys want to reduce yourselves to corp theft, go for it. Just shows how uber you really are tbh. You know what is funny, I remember you saying that we couldn't even take Paragon Soul after a month of the war. Look what happened since? We're the predators, you're the prey. We like to toy with your prey before we finsh the meal. After we take Feyth., will you be saying 'LOL you noobs, you havent killed our alliance yet'?
Slowboat Interspace Trade Consortium	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:08:00 - [264] The bottom line here is that POS' should send an Eve-mail notification when one is offlined and by who it is offlined to the entire Corp. Not a hard change for CCP to do. The other thing I would suggest be added is a self-destruct option for Stations. The corp that built it, and only the CEO of that corp, should have the option to flip a switch abd destroy it in one go. What a corp can put up a corp should be able to destroy even if it is to spite an enemy.
Uinein Caldari Constructive Influence	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:12:00 - [265] CCP made something called 'security settings' aparently you guys aren't very secure with it.
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:16:00 - [266] Originally by: Sorja stuff Anyone that suffered through reading any of your posts on Ships & Modules knows how meaningless your opinions truely are.
Deathsoul Caldari Evolution	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:18:00 - [267] Well if i remind right (and i do) then we have some pastes here in forums where ascn members are tryin to pay of BoB members to offline some poses and spy for them. This is war stradegy and nothing else, maby ascn should try to get a tighter group instead of the numbers and look at why they always have ppl like they suspect BoB of usin
RyanS Amarr Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:27:00 - [268] Originally by: Hast Originally by: RyanS Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 11/12/2006 01:37:00 Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 10/12/2006 15:59:06 All rationalizing of spys via the use of alts is an insult to any semi intelligent person who still thinks EVE is a game. I have first hand knowledge CE uses spys too. Infact you had spys in ASCN when you were fighting them. Your own alliance leadership used these to gain an advantage. Infact they even gave me an ASCN/EDF forum account. Think the use of spys is undefendable? Then quit your corp and alliance. Or maybe its just time to step off your soap box... no body is claim to be best pvper and RELY on spies and thieves at the same time.... THAT'S THE FACT!!! got it? whaa whaaa whaaa spies are lame whaaaaa Originally by: Madeye McGreedy At this time we have some suspects, some of which have come from a BoB corp's forum (yes spys, we have spys in BoB as well and access to your forum wha wha time over? stop quoting my post if all you can say is wha wha....
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:33:00 - [269] Originally by: Christopher Multsanti BOB offlined the towers so they can say they won again. Is anyone really suprised? BOB have no class. Says the guy with Anue in their corp.
Kathar Narka Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:43:00 - [270] "But we were just a small industrial alliance; and now you guys decide to come pick on us and feel big. Band of Bullies never goes for a challenge. "



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