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Caladan Panzureborn Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.08.31 16:18:58 - [1] - Quote For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11543	Posted - 2015.08.31 16:29:15 - [2] - Quote Be patient. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Bellatrix Invicta New Order Logistics CODE. 422	Posted - 2015.08.31 16:45:01 - [3] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Be patient. Eve ain't your normal MMORPG. You're combat effective from day one, admittedly you don't want to tackle. You're limiting yourself there; fleet op experience is always good. There's lots of stuff to do in Eve. Skillpoints aren't the end all, be all. If you think you've won, think again. The CODE always wins.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1215	Posted - 2015.08.31 16:45:01 - [4] - Quote I remember your frustration well. The first few weeks are a bit rough. There's all this cool stuff that you can't quite do, and you keep changing your mind about what to try so your SP ends up all over the place. I look back on it quite fondly now though. There was so much to test and explore, everything new and exciting. The anticipation of your next skill completing....these days I don't even know what I'm currently training. It is hard, but it will pay off if you stick it out. The key is to find ways to have fun with very little SP. For most people this means getting involved with an active corp. Brave does all kinds of things that you can get involved with. Even mining (something I typically abhor) is more fun with people to chat with. You say you don't want to fly fleet tackle. Why is that? Have you tried it? It's a great way to learn about various combat mechanics and how fleets operate - which is incredibly important knowledge when flying solo. You need to be able to deal with those tacklers quickly so you don't get pinned down by "the blob". Flying that role yourself is the best way to understand its limitations. Not to mention it will introduce you to other players and get you involved. The more time you spend doing anything, the less time you spend worrying about your skill queue. Personally I love solo PVP and if that is your ultimate goal I would encourage you to get started sooner rather than later. Check out the "EVE is easy" videos on youtube which have some examples of low SP pilots doing work on their own. Of course these are experienced players using new characters, so they already have the game knowledge. But they prove that SP isn't everything. Keep in mind that solo PVP is basically playing EVE on hard mode. Just because you are solo doesn't mean anyone else is. You'll often be fighting outnumbered and outgunned - and when starting out you'll be at an experience and SP disadvantage as well. However, all those things just make it that more rewarding when you succeed. Just be prepared for a rough go of it for a while - until you find your niche. And in the mean time, even for primarily solo oriented players, flying with groups is undoubtedly the fastest way to learn. Edit: If for some reason it's just the "hero tackle" role that bothers you (suicide isn't for everyone) there are plenty of other low SP options which your FC would love for you to fill - EWAR and T1 logi are welcome in most all fleets Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24956	Posted - 2015.08.31 17:32:41 - [5] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. It's quite common to feel that way, the fact that you're questioning whether or not other MMOs have instilled the need for instant gratification puts you ahead of the curve. Eve is definitely hardcore, and definitely old school but it's definitely possible to play it as a filthy causal, many of us have kids, jobs and other commitments. I'm pretty sure than Brave Newbies have a ship replacement program in place that you can take advantage of if you feel you can't afford to replace your PvP losses, it's certainly worth enquiring about. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Caladan Panzureborn Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.08.31 17:42:44 - [6] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: I remember your frustration well. The first few weeks are a bit rough. There's all this cool stuff that you can't quite do, and you keep changing your mind about what to try so your SP ends up all over the place. I look back on it quite fondly now though. There was so much to test and explore, everything new and exciting. The anticipation of your next skill completing....these days I don't even know what I'm currently training. It is hard, but it will pay off if you stick it out. The key is to find ways to have fun with very little SP. For most people this means getting involved with an active corp. Brave does all kinds of things that you can get involved with. Even mining (something I typically abhor) is more fun with people to chat with. You say you don't want to fly fleet tackle. Why is that? Have you tried it? It's a great way to learn about various combat mechanics and how fleets operate - which is incredibly important knowledge when flying solo. You need to be able to deal with those tacklers quickly so you don't get pinned down by "the blob". Flying that role yourself is the best way to understand its limitations. Not to mention it will introduce you to other players and get you involved. The more time you spend doing anything, the less time you spend worrying about your skill queue. Personally I love solo PVP and if that is your ultimate goal I would encourage you to get started sooner rather than later. Check out the "EVE is easy" videos on youtube which have some examples of low SP pilots doing work on their own. Of course these are experienced players using new characters, so they already have the game knowledge. But they prove that SP isn't everything. Keep in mind that solo PVP is basically playing EVE on hard mode. Just because you are solo doesn't mean anyone else is. You'll often be fighting outnumbered and outgunned - and when starting out you'll be at an experience and SP disadvantage as well. However, all those things just make it that more rewarding when you succeed. Just be prepared for a rough go of it for a while - until you find your niche. And in the mean time, even for primarily solo oriented players, flying with groups is undoubtedly the fastest way to learn. Edit: If for some reason it's just the "hero tackle" role that bothers you (suicide isn't for everyone) there are plenty of other low SP options which your FC would love for you to fill - EWAR and T1 logi are welcome in most all fleets Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't want to fly fleet tackle because it didn't sound challenging. My impression is that I would just end up being blaster fodder. Haha. Thanks for the suggestion on EWAR and T1 Logi. I will ask about that and see if that is something I can get into. I'll check out the "EVE is easy" videos as well.
Vol Arm'OOO Bagel and Lox 736	Posted - 2015.08.31 17:57:44 - [7] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Eve isn't for everybody. It is simply not an instant gratification game. And the wait time for things you want to do get's much worse. For instance, right now I'm about 90 days from triage 2 and carrier v. If I remember correctly carrier v is a 45 day train all by itself. There are lots of things to do in eve, so I suggest that while you are waiting give something else a try. As an aside - a vexor is real cheap. Just do some combat exploration and you should have plenty of isk to cover any vexor losses. The ded 1s and 2s are easy as sin and they frequently drop mods worth 40+ mil isk. Ofc the trick is to find them, but thats the fun in exploration. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Vol Arm'OOO Bagel and Lox 736	Posted - 2015.08.31 17:59:25 - [8] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. It's quite common to feel that way, the fact that you're questioning whether or not other MMOs have instilled the need for instant gratification puts you ahead of the curve. Eve is definitely hardcore, and definitely old school but it's definitely possible to play it as a filthy causal, many of us have kids, jobs and other commitments. I'm pretty sure than Brave Newbies have a ship replacement program in place that you can take advantage of if you feel you can't afford to replace your PvP losses, it's certainly worth enquiring about. I think rvb also as a t1 frig replacement program. I could be wrong. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24957	Posted - 2015.08.31 18:38:25 - [9] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: I think rvb also as a t1 frig replacement program. I could be wrong. They've got 3 or 4 ship replacement programs IIRC, they definitely do cheap/free packages of pre fitted frigates for the newbro's Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 89	Posted - 2015.08.31 18:42:09 - [10] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. It gets better after the first year or two. I hope.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5306	Posted - 2015.08.31 18:55:12 - [11] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I didn't want to fly fleet tackle because it didn't sound challenging. There are players like watch yoself of BNI [SB00N] that are somewhat (in)famous for light tackle.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1362	Posted - 2015.08.31 19:34:12 - [12] - Quote You've gotten into the habit of everything being handed to you, it's now very tough to get out of that mindset but you'll find that you become a much better gamer in general after you do
Webvan All Kill No Skill 13612	Posted - 2015.08.31 19:39:18 - [13] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. It gets better after the first year or two. I hope. Depends on how much you limit yourself. If you limit yourself after the first couple weeks, likely you will still be limiting yourself after the first couple years. EVE tends to be more about what to do rather than how to do it. When games are about - little to do - but hold your hand with how to do it, well that is a security blanket for some and keeps them in those games. Here you can find what to do and start right in, it just may change over time on how you do it, and do it the way you want rather than how some game mechanic leads you to do. I'm in it for the money Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1540	Posted - 2015.08.31 20:05:26 - [14] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't want to fly fleet tackle because it didn't sound challenging. My impression is that I would just end up being blaster fodder. Haha. Thanks for the suggestion on EWAR and T1 Logi. I will ask about that and see if that is something I can get into. I'll check out the "EVE is easy" videos as well. it can be very challenging staying alive vs some fleet comps. Sure many corps will put newbies into frigs and rely on numbers of newbs in fast ships zerging other players. sure 10x newbs in 4km/s atrons will probably land a scram on an orthrus, but will probably lose a few ships in the process, and the othrus always has the option to just warp out. overall frig pvp is the most intense imo, just because it is so fast and ships have so little hp. There are also lots of pilots that make mistakes, or don't have a lot of SP in that area because they are trained into other stuff. There are also many ships/fits that can just beat other ships/fits depending on a huge number of factors, and many of them don't involve Skill points. Flying a battleship is a much bigger isk and SP investment but imo it isn't anywhere near as hard as you don't need to make as many split second decisions. And having that frig pvp experience and knowing what other ships can do makes flying bigger ships easier. Chessur has a much better take on it that I can write: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yBTaqiMrX4 and another one, with some good diagrams on the whiteboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke3ROIFB3Ms The only other thing I really have to say is if you want to focus on combat, then focus on combat, ignore the mining skills for now. Combat becomes a better income source later on anyways. I'd rather do 20days of combat than 10 mining 10 combat. Plankton is my first character, and is nearly all combat. My first alt started with industry, but is nearly all combat now. I feel like when I started I always had stuff to do. A lot of it helped with my corp, we did a ton of t1 frig pvp with each other. and I did a lot of mission grinding. @ChainsawPlankto
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 27	Posted - 2015.08.31 21:23:57 - [15] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. Only you can decide what's fun for you, but personally, I hate the traditional skill grind and never miss it. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. What's probably more anti-climactic is the realization that what you do in the procurer is identical to what you do in the venture. Training for gas harvesting takes less time and is more exciting/rewarding. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Nothing stopping you from finding a fellow knife-wielding newbie to spar with. There are corps full of them, like mine and yours. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. It's totally hardcore, but not in the way you imagine. What's hardcore about EVE is that you set the goals and your only constraints are your ability to think creatively. It sounds like you're not very creative and have let other veteran players, bitter veterans, decide what you should be able to do in order to "win." tl;dr: Square-peg, Round hole. Take a step back and figure out what exactly you want to accomplish and why that's enjoyable.
Jawls Rohn Neon Incorporated 404 Alliance Not Found 10	Posted - 2015.08.31 22:08:39 - [16] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. How long does it actually take to sit in a procurers? Years since I have done it, but I don't remember it taking especially long. What matters is what you enjoy. Do you enjoy flying a venture and mining? If not, a procurers won't no fun either.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5307	Posted - 2015.08.31 23:29:40 - [17] - Quote Procurer, Covetor, Retriever: * Mining (rank 1) level 2 GåÆ 4 * Science (rank 1) level 3 GåÆ 4 * Astrogeology (rank 3) level 3 * Industry (rank 1) level 5 * Mining Barge (rank 4) level 1 As a Venture pilot, only the last two skills should be new, requiring you to make the choice of specializing in Industry. Note that Industry 5 is only a rank 1 skill, so it is quite fast to train. Not a big price for access to 3 new ships. In EVE, specialization is a skill-point sink.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 744	Posted - 2015.09.01 00:20:05 - [18] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Like others have said I was where you are now when I first started. I can tell you from experience that yes those other games have trained you in exactly the way that you have indicated. You should not be sitting around waiting for skills to train. Eve is not a min / max game. It is a game about making and working with friends and making the most out of what you have. If you think that you can just jump into this game and pwn in solo PvP like in other games it almost certainly won't happen that way with only very few exceptions. This is a very deep game and it takes a long time to learn the ins and outs. Learning i.e. becoming experienced at PvP in this game means loosing ships and learning from each loss. If you want to try and loose as few ships as possible or wait for skills or better ships before you PvP then you will never get good at PvP in this game. I could give you an "all level 5" character and your success in PvP in your first few month probably would not change much if at all from what you will do with your current skill points. On the flip side of that is the eve is easy channel on youtube where the guy pwns in PvP on an alt that is about 2 weeks old. You are correct that if you are looking for instant gratification then Eve is not the game for you. However if you are looking for a game that is and will remain challenging and engaging even years from now then Eve is pretty good at that. Unless you are with a very good hardcore null sec or wormhole mining corp then mining will get boring fast. It is also ****** isk compared to pretty much anything else. So if you like mining stick with it, however if you are mining as a get rich quick scheme it's not going to work. But more important than making isk is having fun so find out what you like to do and make isk doing that. This is a game after all and it's supposed to be fun. Rather than give my regular speech I am going to just tell you some things about eve that should give some perspective on the game and maybe help you manage your expectations. Eve is a PvP game first, at it's core and by design. PvE is kind of a secondary after thought in this game. Also Eve is an MMO and by intent and design pushes towards interactions with others and de-emphasizes solo play. The devs have spoken on this repeatedly and they intentionally (I am hesitating to say force) push group efforts over solo and encourage player interaction over non-player interaction ( read that solo or PvE and especially solo PvE). There is no structured PvP in Eve. The arena or battleground style of PvP that you find in games like WoW or Battlefield where you have even numbers of roughly equivalent characters going up against each other just does not exist here. Don't even bother to think about much less trying to get your character ideally set up with max skill points and best in slot gear. The key to success in this game is having more friends and / or playing dirtier than the next guy. Probably the most followed PvP stat in or out of this game is isk destroyed versus isk lost. What that typically translates into is doing more with less. You don't want to be the guy in the blinged out expensive ship, you want to be the guy or guys in the cheaper ships that blew him up and looted his expensive drops. The TL;dr version: If you can open your mind and drop the expectation that other MMOs have taught you and come to Eve not expecting it to be like other MMOs but instead expecting it to be different and give Eve a chance to be Eve, I think there is a good chance that you will like it.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1402	Posted - 2015.09.01 08:31:59 - [19] - Quote sp isnt everything, i have 70mil and i still need my friends to bail me out EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 08:44:17 - [20] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: sp isnt everything, i have 70mil and i still need my friends to bail me out It's not everything but it certainly helps.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1402	Posted - 2015.09.01 08:48:05 - [21] - Quote Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: sp isnt everything, i have 70mil and i still need my friends to bail me out It's not everything but it certainly helps. yeah it helps but but it doesnt give you the skills to actually win a fight, slingshotting, dictating range etc etc are all rl skills not sp. pilot skill is certainly more important than paper skills EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Bitevni Shalina Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:04:50 - [22] - Quote Eve is worst PvP MMOG at the moment. No match making, long wait to get a battle and you need to pay a lot of real money to play it (or grind hours and hours) and to get enouth ISK to replace your ships + fittings. It will take so much time till you will find with whom to fight and from whom to flee. All those super pro elite PvP-iers in this forum fight only fights, where they are sure they will win. And it is usually hour till you fight proper target. Other way around is to join FW or become a little fish in a large blob, where your whole battle is just listen to the FC and switch targets accordingly. Life of a bolt inside of an engine. So if your target is to get fair PvP fights, get them quickly and feel, that you, you alone and your skill can decide how the fight will end - go play World of tanks, warships, war thunder etc... You get instant fights for free andwith some form of match making. Eve is different. It is about live in a WORLD, where you build your home, get circle of friends and fun planning, waiting and finally get a single kill in entire day. You pay CCP to be part of the world, not for some pew-pew. Everything takes real time in this almost real world.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:07:41 - [23] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. A lot of other games have a sense of progression in this game you don't really get that. There is a sense of progression from the skill queue to start with but that tends to be lost as it takes longer and longer to train skills. I spend most of my time reading about EVE and posting on the forums, whilst I play skill queue online. I estimate I'll probably be starting to play properly around the beginning of December. I find the attributes a pain as I'm stuck training core skills, ECM/ECCM type skills and navigations skills presently, leaving my gunnery and ship skills weak. Stuck because it's all about efficiency in training at the start as there are so many skills. But by December I should be in a better position to start. I realise I'm more the exception rather than the rule as I have self imposed restrictions in place from an RP perspective and because of that it doesn't bother me that much. I do understand your point of view though. I have wondered what it would be like if items/ships didn't require level 5 skills, instead level 5 skills only gave that extra 2%/5%/10% etc..
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1402	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:10:35 - [24] - Quote why from an rp perspective have you placed restrictions on yourself? EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:28:20 - [25] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: why from an rp perspective have you placed restrictions on yourself? Well because when I created the character, I created it for a particular purpose. I already decided the type of character it was going to be. Unfortunately there isn't really anything that fits in with the MO of the character in high-sec. I could look possibly at exploration as long as it doesn't involve killing pirates. I also don't want to be training non combat skills when I could be training combat skills. I see core skills as combat skills as they play a part.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1402	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:35:56 - [26] - Quote just move out of highsec and join a nullsec corp as a scout or tackle :) EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:54:55 - [27] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: just move out of highsec and join a nullsec corp as a scout or tackle :) a good corp and fc's will help you be a good pilot, no time like the present As you know Curse is my intended destination how it actually works out should be interesting.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1365	Posted - 2015.09.01 09:55:38 - [28] - Quote Bitevni Shalina wrote: Eve is worst PvP MMOG at the moment. No match making, long wait to get a battle and you need to pay a lot of real money to play it (or grind hours and hours) and to get enouth ISK to replace your ships + fittings. It will take so much time till you will find with whom to fight and from whom to flee. All those super pro elite PvP-iers in this forum fight only fights, where they are sure they will win. And it is usually hour till you fight proper target. Other way around is to join FW or become a little fish in a large blob, where your whole battle is just listen to the FC and switch targets accordingly. Life of a bolt inside of an engine. So if your target is to get fair PvP fights, get them quickly and feel, that you, you alone and your skill can decide how the fight will end - go play World of tanks, warships, war thunder etc... You get instant fights for free andwith some form of match making. Eve is different. It is about live in a WORLD, where you build your home, get circle of friends and fun planning, waiting and finally get a single kill in entire day. You pay CCP to be part of the world, not for some pew-pew. Everything takes real time in this almost real world. Except I get a huge rush whenever I PvP in EVE, something I never experienced in other MMOs (apart from runescape, lels) and I'm talking about highly competitive PvP such as 2k+ Arena in WoW, promotional series in LoL and other such things that "matter" Explain this.
Bitevni Shalina Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2015.09.01 10:04:16 - [29] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Except I get a huge rush whenever I PvP in EVE, ... Explain this. Eve PvP sucks not because it is not interesting. Its waiting time, that spoils it. Huge rush after almost an hour of boredrome, when you were looking for a fight (you have to find any target, than you have to pick only those targets that is weak enough so you have high chance to win etc) is 100 % logical consequence.
Sitting Bull Lakota Ministry of War Amarr Empire 6	Posted - 2015.09.01 10:30:58 - [30] - Quote No, no, and no. Watch me now as I show you how wrong you are. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it (ende) I get the frustration. The issue with this statement is that you assume that you know what you want to do without having done it. You know what you'd like to try. You don't really know what you want to do until you've gone through the buffet of playstyles and roles and gotten some experience. Grab a mining laser and chew a rock. Kill some rats. Build something. Get into a corp. Steal from a corp. Spy for the corp that decs you. Rally your corpies and lead a frig fleet against war targets/ into low/ into null/ to your collective demise. Lose a couple of frigs in solo roams. Join FW. Point is: SP is not expertise. You get SP by paying subscription. You get experience by undocking. If you've got prop jamming trained to I you can be deadly in pvp. You won't be 25m SP all-related-skills-level-V Dramiel pilot deadly, but you can stop a ship from warping off while you hit it. Simple but effective, this is the foundation upon which all eve combat is built. For you sports guys/gals solid fundamentals make good players. Don't let the desire to fly expensive ships later stop you from flying cheap ones now. OP wrote: I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Again, don't let yourelf sit around waiting for your skill queue to finish. Especially if you're waiting for some more "efficient" way to isk/hr. OP wrote: Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Don't wait for SP. Do use what you've got and expect to learn from your losses. Just be persistant. My first legit solo kill was an Imperial navy slicer with my executioner in RvB. A 3 week old could've flown in. Most of Eve pvp is team oriented, and the tackle is at least as important as the dps. Try it before you judge it. My opinion: Buy a PLEX. Well worth it early on. Gets you out of the isk grind and into the stuff that CCP advertises. A PLEX puts a billion isk in your pocket for the price if a bit over 1 month sub fee. Yes being self sufficient is good, but early on, it is really hard to get that kind of cash. Plus, 1bil can pay for about every skill you'll need along with 50 pvp frigates plus 10 pvp cruisers (all tech 1 hulls) with a couple hundred million leftover. If you're learning solo pvp, I guarantee you your first magic number is somewhere in that pile of frigates with a second and third close behind. There, I replied to a "Skill queue online" thread.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 838	Posted - 2015.09.01 10:51:36 - [31] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Welcome to EVE where you actually have to literally grow up and learn stuff as a capsuleer. An analogy is you don't expect a one month old baby(you) to do a PHD on quantum mechanics or squat 100 kilos the moment you were born. NO you take your first baby steps and learn how to walk in EVE. We don't expect our newbros to do acrobatics at the start of the game so we give them easy things to do that is beneficial to everyone. Also why would you use a vexor as a month old toon? Stick to the tristan and algos for drone boats of your age. They're effective as solo and fleet pvp ships in their own right if you know how to use and fit them properly. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1404	Posted - 2015.09.01 10:59:47 - [32] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Welcome to EVE where you actually have to literally grow up and learn stuff as a capsuleer. An analogy is you don't expect a one month old baby(you) to do a PHD on quantum mechanics or squat 100 kilos the moment you were born. NO you take your first baby steps and learn how to walk in EVE. We don't expect our newbros to do acrobatics at the start of the game so we give them easy things to do that is beneficial to everyone. Also why would you use a vexor as a month old toon? Stick to the tristan and algos for drone boats of your age. They're effective as solo and fleet pvp ships in their own right if you know how to use and fit them properly. ikr, how fun would eve be if you could complete the game and fly everything in 7 days EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 11:21:35 - [33] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: ikr, how fun would eve be if you could complete the game and fly everything in 7 days Depends, do you find waiting months to fly something, fun or is it actually using the ship that is fun part? You can't complete EVE as it's a sandbox, although you can complete your own goals within the sandbox. If a game is too hard people get frustrated, if a game is too easy people get bored. It has to be in the middle somewhere.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 744	Posted - 2015.09.01 11:31:27 - [34] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I didn't want to fly fleet tackle because it didn't sound challenging. My impression is that I would just end up being blaster fodder. Haha. My understanding is that fleet tackle is the most important role in fleet and that they are the content creators of small and medium gang combat. I was listening to a pod cast a while back from a somewhat famous FC, who's name escapes me now, but he was saything that tackle are your scouts. He pointed out that you need your most experienced pilots as tackle since they are often the ones deciding what the fleet is committing to, so they need to be able to spot and differentiate bait from good targets as well as be experienced enough to last until the rest of the fleet arrives. So more experienced PvPers can correct me if I am wrong but I don't think fleet tackle is a role for a noob. That role is far too important to put on someone with little experience. I think as a new player you are probably better off sitting back with the fleet playing F1 monkey or flying some type of support ship like logi or ewar. As far as fleet tackle not being challenging like I've pointed out it is likely the most challenging role in any fleet (if done properly) even more challenging than FCing in many cases. Also keep in mind that if you want to solo PvP you are essentially flying fleet tackle without the fleet to back you up. So it seems to me that you concept of fleet tackle might be a little misguided.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 11:38:28 - [35] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: So more experienced PvPers can correct me if I am wrong but I don't think fleet tackle is a role for a noob. That role is far too important to put on someone with little experience. I think as a new player you are probably better off sitting back with the fleet playing F1 monkey or flying some type of support ship like logi or ewar. I'm under the impression that the role of a newbro is to sit off-grid with some neuts.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1404	Posted - 2015.09.01 11:52:43 - [36] - Quote Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: So more experienced PvPers can correct me if I am wrong but I don't think fleet tackle is a role for a noob. That role is far too important to put on someone with little experience. I think as a new player you are probably better off sitting back with the fleet playing F1 monkey or flying some type of support ship like logi or ewar. I'm under the impression that the role of a newbro is to sit off-grid with some neuts. nah neuts are close range stuff, think you mean damps. still an also important role sitting in a maulus, tbh any role in a fleet is important, i dont know about noobs in logi, logi is still a pretty long train EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.09.01 12:12:30 - [37] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: think you mean damps. Thanks, I did mean damps.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1365	Posted - 2015.09.01 12:34:20 - [38] - Quote sitting off-grid with any module is going to be a pretty boring day for you
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1216	Posted - 2015.09.01 14:28:18 - [39] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I didn't want to fly fleet tackle because it didn't sound challenging. My impression is that I would just end up being blaster fodder. Haha. My understanding is that fleet tackle is the most important role in fleet and that they are the content creators of small and medium gang combat. I was trying to write a post like this yesterday but kept getting interrupted. Fortunately erg beat me to it and did it much better than I would have. I strongly agree with this post. Scouting is a very important role - one that can mean the difference between a fun roam or an awful experience in patience and self-control. Your ability to quickly asses a system impacts the entire fleet's efficiency. There's nothing worse than sitting on the gate waiting for a lousy scout to warp to every asteroid belt in search of a venture because they don't know how to use dscan or what a decent target is. This is why I have come to recommend T1 logi or Ewar as an alternative for newbros, because it still allows you to play a very important role in the fleet, but you won't naturally drag the entire fleet down due to your inexperience. Of course, you never get better at scouting unless you practice it. However, in my experience, the absolute best scouts I have met are also excellent solo pilots. The time you spend searching for targets on your own is great practice for locating targets quickly and a good solo pilot is able to do this while not getting caught out by the enemy gang. Besides EWAR and logi are very fun roles, and very SP friendly. There's nothing quite like getting that important jam that turns a fight, or landing reps on your mate in 10% hull. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 89	Posted - 2015.09.01 14:52:00 - [40] - Quote InB4 Logi and EWAR are also too skill intensive for newbros too. :D
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1367	Posted - 2015.09.01 15:02:40 - [41] - Quote It really doesn't take very long to get into a logi frigate
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 745	Posted - 2015.09.01 22:54:14 - [42] - Quote Aerasia wrote: InB4 Logi and EWAR are also too skill intensive for newbros too. :D So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points. I made this loadout: [Inquisitor, noob repper.] Damage Control I Energized Explosive Membrane I Energized Kinetic Membrane I Power Diagnostic System I Small Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25 1MN Afterburner I Small Remote Armor Repairer I Small Remote Armor Repairer I Small Remote Armor Repairer I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] So this is a Minmatar character in an Amarr ship and it all fits with her current skills she just needs the prereqs for the modules. 15 hours 44 minutes to train into that. I'm not sure what you are talking about logi being too skill intensive for new players.
Tanuki Three Triple Tanuki Tech 5	Posted - 2015.09.01 23:29:55 - [43] - Quote Bitevni Shalina wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Except I get a huge rush whenever I PvP in EVE, ... Explain this. Eve PvP sucks not because it is not interesting. Its waiting time, that spoils it. Huge rush after almost an hour of boredrome, when you were looking for a fight (you have to find any target, than you have to pick only those targets that is weak enough so you have high chance to win etc) is 100 % logical consequence. Yes....and no. Even as a newer player in FW, if I wanted fights all I would have to do is pretend to be a cemplex farmer, and ambush people that came to get me. This wouldn't take very long at all. When I actually AM farming, I can expect 1-2 enemy or neutral pilots to show up in my complex every 15-20 minutes. Yes, compared to popping into a queue of LOL or DOTA2, that's a long time with not very much time spent fighting. But rush you get from those fights is much higher quality. But I do agree that most of the people out in FW looking for fights are going to have higher SP and more ISK to throw at combat than any new player in their first couple months. That's the part that I struggle with as a solo pilot. But even having 1 extra teammate would make things a hell of a lot more interesting. IMHO, you just have to focus your efforts on learning how and where to find the kind of combat you want. Sometimes that's going to require an investment of time, sometimes not. Either way, the feeling of personal achievement when you do get victories....yeah, you can't get that from another game.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 469	Posted - 2015.09.02 14:50:22 - [44] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. We all understand this since we all went through it. Others have hinted at this but I want to just put it out on the table. I play many other online games as well and they always frustrate me very quickly and I quit playing them for months at a time.. Why? because of real life I cannot spend more than a few hours a week playing a game and therefore I am always at a significant disadvantage and there is no way for me to overcome that. Now to EvE, because your characters skills train at the same rate no matter how many hours you play EvE is balanced at least from characters skill point of view and that makes EvE a better game in my opinion, at least for players like me with minimal time available. Yes you are right new / newer characters are and always will be at a disadvantage in any game that has a skills progression based on training whether that is real time like EvE or grind based like most other games. There are many things a new player can do to contribute to his / her corp, as the others have suggested engage your leaders in a conversation about your wants / needs and how you might be able to help more. One last thought. Brave is a good group based on what little I know about them, however it may not be right for you. Remember there are many corps out there that may offer you something that better suits your needs / wants / desires.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8370	Posted - 2015.09.02 18:08:57 - [45] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: Aerasia wrote: InB4 Logi and EWAR are also too skill intensive for newbros too. :D So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points. I made this loadout: [Inquisitor, noob repper.] Damage Control I Energized Explosive Membrane I Energized Kinetic Membrane I Power Diagnostic System I Small Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25 1MN Afterburner I Small Remote Armor Repairer I Small Remote Armor Repairer I Small Remote Armor Repairer I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] So this is a Minmatar character in an Amarr ship and it all fits with her current skills she just needs the prereqs for the modules. 15 hours 44 minutes to train into that. I'm not sure what you are talking about logi being too skill intensive for new players. Obviously you fail at reading sarcasm. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 90	Posted - 2015.09.02 18:30:30 - [46] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Obviously you fail at reading sarcasm. Awww, be nice. It's the EVE forums. Most people train ShipToasting V long before they even touch PoastReading II.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.02 18:31:18 - [47] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. We all understand this since we all went through it. Others have hinted at this but I want to just put it out on the table. I play many other online games as well and they always frustrate me very quickly and I quit playing them for months at a time.. Why? because of real life I cannot spend more than a few hours a week playing a game and therefore I am always at a significant disadvantage and there is no way for me to overcome that. Now to EvE, because your characters skills train at the same rate no matter how many hours you play EvE is balanced at least from characters skill point of view and that makes EvE a better game in my opinion, at least for players like me with minimal time available. Yes you are right new / newer characters are and always will be at a disadvantage in any game that has a skills progression based on training whether that is real time like EvE or grind based like most other games. There are many things a new player can do to contribute to his / her corp, as the others have suggested engage your leaders in a conversation about your wants / needs and how you might be able to help more. One last thought. Brave is a good group based on what little I know about them, however it may not be right for you. Remember there are many corps out there that may offer you something that better suits your needs / wants / desires. The concept of having skills train while you are away is nice in theory. But the time it takes to get things to level 5 is really long. If they cut the time it takes to get most skills to level V in half in most cases it would still be too long for me. Modern games that have standard MMO style level progression will usually get you to level cap in a much faster pace. Or not even level cap necessarily but to a point where you can have some fun and get into the "meat" of it. I think of SWTOR where as a level 22 character (nowhere near cap) I was able to get kills in PvP and contribute to my team with their awesome Bolster system that put me on par with end game characters. Not exactly on par, but enough to make a difference if I played well. I understand that as a sandbox, there is no level cap and no endgame and that is a double edged sword. I can be impulsive when it comes to gaming and making decisions based on my perceptions and the perception here is that this is a massive time commitment and one I'm not sure I can hang with. People have said, "1-2 weeks is nothing to get into X ship. I had to wait 30-45 days to get into x" or whatever, and I just can't wrap my head around waiting 1-2 months to do anything in a video game. Just having that knowledge over my head, the timer staring me in the face is daunting. As others have suggested, maybe I don't even need to wait and fun is just right out there waiting for me to find it. Well as you can see my corp label has changed and I'm no longer with Brave. I attempted to join a PvP fleet of corpmates and was met with "You need to submit an application and API key to join us". I asked why I need to submit that again after already submitting it to join the corp in the first place. Then silence and I said **** it. Asked in corp chat if anyone wanted to join me for casual pvp...again silence. Then someone suggested I did solo PvP in FW. So maybe Brave wasn't for me, maybe I didn't give them a chance but I have limited patience for red tape and all the applications and beuracracy BS. I've now applied to what looks like a smaller corp that I'm hoping is more personal and more active in PvP. We'll see. As of now, I've cancelled my sub to EVE and with my remaining time, have until Oct 1st to make a decision on whether or not I'll be sticking around. I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is refreshing to not get flamed or trolled. If anyting, I hope the Devs read these threads and get ideas on how to make the game more accessible for new players like myself.
Bellatrix Invicta New Order Logistics CODE. 467	Posted - 2015.09.02 18:42:42 - [48] - Quote Training to V in anything that isn't a core skill is pretty much best saved until you have everything else at IV. There are certain exceptions. Eve is as accessible as it needs to be. It forces people out who don't want to learn, can't learn or simply dislike the game. That's good. If you think you've won, think again. The CODE always wins.
Retfird Rats Deadspace Embargo 2	Posted - 2015.09.02 18:47:56 - [49] - Quote EVE is fun for a few months then the missions get repetitive, you get continually war dec'ed and hunted because you're a new player, you find out you can't do several of the things you're interested in unless you play for like 2 or more years, and are constantly waiting on skills that take long wait times to turnover to find out there is more you need to unlock to get what you want and/or the skill you just spent a number of days getting is not really helping you that much anyway. I am sorry I paid for a year for this game because feeling done right... about... now.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 147	Posted - 2015.09.02 19:02:37 - [50] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: The concept of having skills train while you are away is nice in theory. But the time it takes to get things to level 5 is really long. If they cut the time it takes to get most skills to level V in half in most cases it would still be too long for me. Modern games that have standard MMO style level progression will usually get you to level cap in a much faster pace. Or not even level cap necessarily but to a point where you can have some fun and get into the "meat" of it. I think of SWTOR where as a level 22 character (nowhere near cap) I was able to get kills in PvP and contribute to my team with their awesome Bolster system that put me on par with end game characters. Not exactly on par, but enough to make a difference if I played well. I understand that as a sandbox, there is no level cap and no endgame and that is a double edged sword. I can be impulsive when it comes to gaming and making decisions based on my perceptions and the perception here is that this is a massive time commitment and one I'm not sure I can hang with. People have said, "1-2 weeks is nothing to get into X ship. I had to wait 30-45 days to get into x" or whatever, and I just can't wrap my head around waiting 1-2 months to do anything in a video game. Just having that knowledge over my head, the timer staring me in the face is daunting. As others have suggested, maybe I don't even need to wait and fun is just right out there waiting for me to find it. Well as you can see my corp label has changed and I'm no longer with Brave. I attempted to join a PvP fleet of corpmates and was met with "You need to submit an application and API key to join us". I asked why I need to submit that again after already submitting it to join the corp in the first place. Then silence and I said **** it. Asked in corp chat if anyone wanted to join me for casual pvp...again silence. Then someone suggested I did solo PvP in FW. So maybe Brave wasn't for me, maybe I didn't give them a chance but I have limited patience for red tape and all the applications and beuracracy BS. I've now applied to what looks like a smaller corp that I'm hoping is more personal and more active in PvP. We'll see. As of now, I've cancelled my sub to EVE and with my remaining time, have until Oct 1st to make a decision on whether or not I'll be sticking around. I appreciate everyone's feedback and it is refreshing to not get flamed or trolled. If anyting, I hope the Devs read these threads and get ideas on how to make the game more accessible for new players like myself. The API key is a bit off putting especially as you don't need it in other games I've played. Although some guilds in other games have their own version of red tape. From what I can gather the API is to see if you are who you say you are, so you don't run off with the corp. jewels. As for waiting for fun, can't really comment as I'm not really doing much myself (hardly anything unless you count the forum). Level 5 skills do take awhile, I wonder how this game would play out if you didn't need level 5s before you could use items/ships. In my case I'm just playing skill queue online at the moment, what I have found is the attributes are a bit of a pain. That's because when you set your attributes up to favour certain skills you are stuck with those skills because switching to others will be a huge drop in efficiency. In fact I'm about to make matters worse as it won't be long until I've trained cybernetics 4, then +4 implants so I'll probably have even more reason to not get too involved until I reach my target. I don't really see attributes as being that helpful for this game. Some people will say that it's a mind set, but it's also about efficiency and people don't generally go out of their way to do things in the most inefficient way that they can. But then my sub is due in Feb, so plenty of time to get into it before then. This game isn't like most though, part of that is due to its sandbox nature, so you won't get the game leading you anywhere.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1217	Posted - 2015.09.02 19:43:18 - [51] - Quote Don't be sucked into the mindset where you feel you need level 5 before you can play. Especially when starting out, don't bother with training anything to level 5 unless it's a prereq for something you want (with a few exceptions - CPU management, powergrid management, and drones are probably the first skills to take to level 5 which you will want pretty early on). Just take your skills to 3 or 4 while you try out various things. Once you've decided what to focus on you will be more willing to invest time to max out your skills. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: People have said, "1-2 weeks is nothing to get into X ship. I had to wait 30-45 days to get into x" or whatever, and I just can't wrap my head around waiting 1-2 months to do anything in a video game. Just having that knowledge over my head, the timer staring me in the face is daunting. I remember my on my first day in EVE while I was still doing the tutorial I met a vet player flying a black ops battleship. He told me a bit about his ship. As soon as he mentioned that it could transport other players to different systems I docked up immediately and wouldn't undock for quite some time (I was so paranoid even then ). Anyway, he mentioned I could fly one too in a year or two. I remember laughing out loud. A year? No way I'd still be playing then. Two years later, I'm still here. Guess what? I still can't fly a black ops! Granted I could by now if I had wanted to but it hasn't been a priority. The point is, don't worry about that far into the future. Who knows if you will even still be playing. The key is to find something you enjoy doing now* (or at least in the short term). I have short term fun, medium term goals, and long term dreams. It doesn't matter what happens 6 months from now. Those are just dreams. What happens 2 weeks from now is a goal. I set it now, and stop worrying about it. Two weeks from now I will have a new toy to add to my arsenal. The more toys in your toybox (tools in your toolbox?) the less you have to worry about what you are training. It's tough in the beginning when you have to make do with cheap toys. But you can still have a lot of fun. Go play with sticks and mud for a while. Your LEGOs are in the mail. I can't remember if it was a Sin or a Panther, which has always haunted me Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 148	Posted - 2015.09.02 20:23:22 - [52] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: Don't be sucked into the mindset where you feel you need level 5 before you can play. Especially when starting out, don't bother with training anything to level 5 unless it's a prereq for something you want... That's the problem with level 5s quite a few of them are.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.02 21:08:44 - [53] - Quote Bellatrix Invicta wrote: Training to V in anything that isn't a core skill is pretty much best saved until you have everything else at IV. There are certain exceptions. Eve is as accessible as it needs to be. It forces people out who don't want to learn, can't learn or simply dislike the game. That's good. From an outsider's perspective, I can't see how any game developer would want to force anyone out of their game for any reason. More people play and pay=more profit. Of course, no one should play a game they don't like and it would be silly to do it. The idea would be to try to attract as many as new players as possible without alienating your vet players. A tough task, I'm sure. IF there were to be an overhaul of the entire way SP worked and length of time shortened significantly I can only see it benefiting the health of the game. Less time waiting on requisites is more time spent flying what you want or doing what you want to do. For a game, I don't think having to wait a long time to do something adds value to it. Sure, hard work and persistence pay off in real life to attain the things you want. But in a video game, you can dedicate years of your life and thousands of dollars and at the end of the day, you have nothing. Just pixels on the screen. (But, but, EVE is REAL!) *Sorry I don't believe that. Still a game.
Cidanel Afuran Chickenhawk. 149	Posted - 2015.09.02 21:29:59 - [54] - Quote My mindset is a bit different than others, so I'm not sure how much it will translate to the typical newbro. I love EVE because of how massive it is. I like being an explorer (and by that I mean exploring the universe, not relic/data sites). I've spent weeks at a time doing nothing but seeing how far into null/LS I could get, or how far into a WH chain I could get. Many times I make zero ISK and get zero fights doing this, but it was extremely exciting as a newbie. A big chunk of the ISK I got as a newbie was scouting down routes in WHs/null/LS for people I knew, so that they could have faster/safer hauling routes. As a month old player, I was scanning/scouting routes in a rifter or probe and simply giving intel to older players who didn't think it was worth their time. I was making 100 mil/week in thank you donations simply for doing that. For a month old character, that was big, big money, and definitely made up for my losses. I think the problem people have is you don't need nearly as much creativity in other MMOs as you do in EVE. No one is going to tell you what to do. When I was only a few months old I had no clue that flying around and selling tactical bookmarks/WH locations wasn't the norm for a new player. It was just something that jumped out at me as exciting (that kind of thing would have been exciting in other MMOs, but game mechanics didn't allow it). OP - my advice? Get in a T1 scanning ship and see if you can simply survive exclusively in null/WHs/LS for a month straight. Gather intel on who lives there, what they do, etc. To people like me, that kind of thing is a blast. Hell, I will cover any T1 scanning ship losses you get for the next month if you give me screenshots to prove you're doing it/keep me updated on your progress. If you start by this weekend (don't play the "refuse to undock until xxx skill is done training" waiting game) I will cover the ISK you lose and keep you in T1 frigs for the next 30 days, providing you give proof in this thread w/ screenshots that you are deep in null/WHs/etc harassing people in local and learning how to survive.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 29	Posted - 2015.09.02 22:41:18 - [55] - Quote Retfird Rats wrote: EVE is fun for a few months then the missions get repetitive, you get continually war dec'ed and hunted because you're a new player My corp is under a war dec right now, but they probably won't hunt me in wormholes. I'm used to being hunted there so it's not a big deal for me. Part of the fun of EVE is figuring out how to get around the baddies, who have the most human-like-AI ever. Retfird Rats wrote: you find out you can't do several of the things you're interested in unless you play for like 2 or more years I got this feeling kind of early on, probably my second week. Then I realized most of those things were actually accessible when I joined a good corp. Teamwork is a great substitute for skillpoints and seems to be better in most cases. Retfird Rats wrote: and are constantly waiting on skills that take long wait times to turnover to find out there is more you need to unlock to get what you want and/or the skill you just spent a number of days getting is not really helping you that much anyway. The realization that most skills have big-time diminishing returns is a good observation. It helps put the fact that training a lot of stuff to level 2 or 3 is easy and useful into perspective with your perfectionist desire to make everything max level asap.
Alleja DeSan-na The Blind Fly 10	Posted - 2015.09.03 00:48:46 - [56] - Quote Cidanel Afuran wrote: OP - my advice? Get in a T1 scanning ship and see if you can simply survive exclusively in null/WHs/LS for a month straight. Gather intel on who lives there, what they do, etc. To people like me, that kind of thing is a blast. Hell, I will cover any T1 scanning ship losses you get for the next month if you give me screenshots to prove you're doing it/keep me updated on your progress. If you start by this weekend (don't play the "refuse to undock until xxx skill is done training" waiting game) I will cover the ISK you lose and keep you in T1 frigs for the next 30 days, providing you give proof in this thread w/ screenshots that you are deep in null/WHs/etc harassing people in local and learning how to survive. This I totally agree with the post of Cidanel, undock and go. The SPs will come, the real skills have to been made by yourself. And this "style" (exploration in real sense of the term and in hostile or unknown territory) is really a blast.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 473	Posted - 2015.09.03 06:43:44 - [57] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: The concept of having skills train while you are away is nice in theory. No the concept of skills training in real time is not a theory, it is and always has been a fundamental part of EvE. CCP may change that at some point but when they do I know a very large number of veteran players that will quit because it is the wrong way for this game to go. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: But the time it takes to get things to level 5 is really long. After a little more than 1 month in the game and you think your skills take a long time to train. Be glad you are leaving because the level 5 skills that take more than 90 days to train that are coming your way would likely cause your head to explode in frustration. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Modern games that have standard MMO style level progression will usually get you to level cap in a much faster pace. Or not even level cap necessarily but to a point where you can have some fun and get into the "meat" of it. This is where you go completely off track. We do not want EvE to be the same as all those other modern games out there. Those of us that like EvE like it BECAUSE it is different and one of those major differences is that there is no grinding to raise skills. If you cannot get into the "meat" of the game then lower your expectations to a more reasonable level. I know many 1 and 2 month old characters that are making significant contributions to the corps they belong to. No they cannot fly some of the fancy ships but they are contributing anyway by being willing to do what they can. It seems crazy but in some cases flying ammo runs for a fleet op can be the single most important task there is. As a general guideline the ONLY level 5 skill a 1 month old character should even be considering would be drones 5, and even that depends on what you want to do. Yet here you are complaining about how long it takes to train level 5 skills. Let's look at what is the "meat" of this game for new players like you. 1. coming to terms with the way this game works instead of complaining and asking for it to change to what you want it to be. 2. focusing on getting a solid base set of skills trained to support the things you want to do in the future. 3. learning some of the more important parts of the game like using your d-scanner. 4. getting some solid understanding of some of EvE's concepts like active tanks, passive tanks and buffer tanks. 5. understanding how and when you should use each of these types of tanks. 6. what are the strengths and weaknesses of each of these tanking methods. 7. weapons types, what are the strengths and weaknesses of each. 8. fitting your ship, how and why to use the various modules and rigs. I could go on but these are the basic concepts, building blocks if you will for EvE and these are the "meat" that you as a one month old player should be working on and the skills required to work on these things are quick and easy to train. EvE is complex and it is expansive in ways that very few other games are. EvE is not for everyone and it likely never will be. And most importantly EvE is a game that rewards patience and careful planning more than simply spending hours at the keyboard shooting things. So maybe in the end you are not the right type of player for EvE. Then again if you accept this game on it's own terms and work with it instead of spending all your time thinking about how it is not like every other game you may just end up liking it.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:07:42 - [58] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: If you cannot get into the "meat" of the game then lower your expectations to a more reasonable level. I know many 1 and 2 month old characters that are making significant contributions to the corps they belong to. No they cannot fly some of the fancy ships but they are contributing anyway by being willing to do what they can. It seems crazy but in some cases flying ammo runs for a fleet op can be the single most important task there is. Yeah, if you were aiming for a more engaging gameplay experience than "taking the place of one of the fleet member's Industry alts", then maybe you need to learn to lower your expectations.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1358	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:00:55 - [59] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Be patient. Basically this. ... and enjoy your journey, the endless journey, because this is EvE. There is no "endgame" or ultimate setup, you need to redefine your gameplay and leave your comfort zone regularly to not get bored or burn out. I'm having some difficulties to understand the attitude of "can't do this, why playing then...", I never felt the lack of options or things to do during the first 6 months. Everything was new and so much to learn&try and so little time to play. Skillpoints never were a topic in the beginning (it's a bit different now as there are no low level skills left ...), I trained everything a bit and finally started specializing in certain ships I liked and exploration. What I have to admit is that I was "socialized" with the X-series and never played an MMO before EvE. I'm my own NPC alt.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 151	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:15:52 - [60] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. Solo PvP isn't the place for newbros. Even if you wnt and bought yourself a 150m SP character off the bazaar, you'll still get curbstomped. Here's my ISK0.02 on the subject. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. So fly newbie EWAR for a corp? The Vigil and Maulus are both incredible force multipliers. Effective EWAR that can be delivered after a couple hours of training. Seriously, Gallente Frigate I, Sensor Linking I, Hull Upgrades I, High Speed Maneuvering I. That's all you seriously need in order to sit in a Maulus and start wrecking the day of blingy HACs and T3 Cruisers. A single newbro in a Vigil adds something on the order of ~15% damage to a missile boat fleet (think Caracals or similar). That is some quality mojo for ~3 hours of training. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:17:28 - [61] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Be patient. Basically this. ... and enjoy your journey, the endless journey, because this is EvE. There is no "endgame" or ultimate setup, you need to redefine your gameplay and leave your comfort zone regularly to not get bored or burn out. I'm having some difficulties to understand the attitude of "can't do this, why playing then...", I never felt the lack of options or things to do during the first 6 months. Everything was new and so much to learn&try and so little time to play. Skillpoints never were a topic in the beginning (it's a bit different now as there are no low level skills left ...), I trained everything a bit and finally started specializing in certain ships I liked and exploration. What I have to admit is that I was "socialized" with the X-series and never played an MMO before EvE. I find it odd that some people like things to progress at a snails pace. I'm fairly sure it would be quicker to learn how to play something than actually train to use it. Lack of options are created by the way the skill queue is setup and the amount of skills, it's also due to restrictions imposed by the player. Like not wanting to mine for instance. Edit: Also bearing in mind that the game will seem different depending upon how long your gaming sessions are. This is due to the skill queue being constant regardless how long you play for in a day (forgetting attributes as not looking at that). There's nothing wrong with that but, it is something to bear in mind.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1360	Posted - 2015.09.03 14:27:46 - [62] - Quote Avvy wrote: Edit: Also bearing in mind that the game will seem different depending upon how long your gaming sessions are. This is due to the skill queue being constant regardless how long you play for in a day (forgetting attributes as not looking at that). There's nothing wrong with that but, it is something to bear in mind. Right, it certainly feels less restricting if you can continue your session next day or day after next with a bunch of new skills completed than watching the timer all day. I'm my own NPC alt.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 474	Posted - 2015.09.03 14:55:21 - [63] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Yeah, if you were aiming for a more engaging gameplay experience than "taking the place of one of the fleet member's Industry alts", then maybe you need to learn to lower your expectations. And with this attitude you are limiting yourself more than the game ever will. The low sec corp my son is in has many 1-3 month old players and they contribute in many ways. Ammo hauling is but one of them. Tackle, scouts, webs / scrams, boosters, extra dps and yes even bait and many more. SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play. Avvy wrote: I find it odd that some people like things to progress at a snails pace. I'm fairly sure it would be quicker to learn how to play something than actually train to use it. Wondering when if ever this will get through to you and others. We like the skill training the way it is because it ELIMINATES the benefits of being able to spend countless hours grinding skills. I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. And yes CCP is fully aware that by not implementing a grind based skills system and several other things that are common to other games they are limiting their potential player base. And yes they have repeatedly stated over the years that they are comfortable with that situation. They have also stated repeatedly that they would rather stay true to their vision for EvE with a smaller player base than to compromise that vision simply to appeal to a larger player base. So in the end it all comes back to the same thing. A real time based skills training system is here to stay, if that does not suit your preferences or your playing style, or your idea of what a game should be then you are one of those players that CCP would rather do without.
Lulu Lunette Blue Aurochs United Systems of Aridia 71	Posted - 2015.09.03 14:59:37 - [64] - Quote Plex for SP let's go. @lunettelulu7
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:06:36 - [65] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Avvy wrote: I find it odd that some people like things to progress at a snails pace. I'm fairly sure it would be quicker to learn how to play something than actually train to use it. Wondering when if ever this will get through to you and others. We like the skill training the way it is because it ELIMINATES the benefits of being able to spend countless hours grinding skills. I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. And yes CCP is fully aware that by not implementing a grind based skills system and several other things that are common to other games they are limiting their potential player base. And yes they have repeatedly stated over the years that they are comfortable with that situation. They have also stated repeatedly that they would rather stay true to their vision for EvE with a smaller player base than to compromise that vision simply to appeal to a larger player base. So in the end it all comes back to the same thing. A real time based skills training system is here to stay, if that does not suit your preferences or your playing style, or your idea of what a game should be then you are one of those players that CCP would rather do without. I'm well aware that some like the skill tree. I actually like the skill tree too, although it's a little slow to start with but CCP is looking at that I believe. I'm not interested in killing something a few hundred times either, have never liked that kind of progression.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:07:24 - [66] - Quote Lulu Lunette wrote: Plex for SP let's go. Don't suggest that, I'd be tempted to buy too many PLEX.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1434	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:11:43 - [67] - Quote Lulu Lunette wrote: Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:16:34 - [68] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Lulu Lunette wrote: Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve Ok, I'm not interested in PLEX for sp, although if there was such a thing I might have used it. But I am interested in why you think it would be death to EVE.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1360	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:31:35 - [69] - Quote Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: Lulu Lunette wrote: Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve Ok, I'm not interested in PLEX for sp, although if there was such a thing I might have used it. But I am interested in why you think it would be death to EVE. It's already there, and it's called "character bazaar". If you want to skip the time to skill and have a enough ISK you can just buy a 100M SP char, and start whelping your Marauder or Carrier right away. I'm my own NPC alt.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:35:15 - [70] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: Lulu Lunette wrote: Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve Ok, I'm not interested in PLEX for sp, although if there was such a thing I might have used it. But I am interested in why you think it would be death to EVE. It's already there, and it's called "character bazaar". If you want to skip the time to skill and have a enough ISK you can just buy a 100M SP char, and start whelping your Marauder or Carrier right away. Except you can't tailor a character from the character bazaar to exactly your specifications. Still doesn't answer why it would be the death of EVE though.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1360	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:41:32 - [71] - Quote Avvy wrote: Except you can't tailor a character from the character bazaar to exactly your specifications. You can with the resculpt feature, but the name and history is preserved, though professional sellers keep their chars as clean as possible. I'm my own NPC alt.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:45:22 - [72] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Avvy wrote: Except you can't tailor a character from the character bazaar to exactly your specifications. You can with the resculpt feature, but the name and history is preserved, though professional sellers keep their chars as clean as possible. It still wouldn't feel the same to me. Plus the name is important, in other games if the name gets altered for any reason, I just delete the character.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1435	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:51:48 - [73] - Quote because plex for sp would ruin the plex market, ruin the character bazaar, characters have history and an idea that you have an infinate amount of skills and every character is different, plex for sp will mean focussed characters that have been coined to serve a purpose within an hour of playing the game, plex for sp gives instant maxed characters and that is bad EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:56:23 - [74] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Wait, you have appreciable time spent in PS2 and want to contrast cert gains negatively to SP progression? Are you high? PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours. And you want to compare that to EVE's multi-month training to master a single ship hull. Donnachadh wrote: Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it. Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system. The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.09.03 16:04:49 - [75] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: because plex for sp would ruin the plex market, ruin the character bazaar, characters have history and an idea that you have an infinate amount of skills and every character is different, plex for sp will mean focussed characters that have been coined to serve a purpose within an hour of playing the game, plex for sp gives instant maxed characters and that is bad Plex market - Not sure it would ruin the market, it would alter it and some of the PLEX being stored would be used up. Character bazaar - this depends on the cost of PLEX for sp compared with buying a character from the bazaar. History - Doesn't matter, the history starts when you start playing it (unless from the character bazaar). Character variations - Ok, on this one I agree, as you could potentially have instant class builds. Although you will get them eventually anyway. Instance maxed character - could happen but it's unlikely there would be many. You could limit the amount that you could use within a given time period. But it was interesting to see what you think.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 19:53:14 - [76] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Donnachadh wrote: I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Wait, you have appreciable time spent in PS2 and want to contrast cert gains negatively to SP progression? Are you high? PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours. And you want to compare that to EVE's multi-month training to master a single ship hull. Donnachadh wrote: Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it. Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system. The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. +1 To adjust to modern standards and new player expectations I'd recommend they reduce the time it takes to train skills by half at least. I say fine, if they can't compromise their vision of the game and won't change the way SP training works just please reduce the amount of time it takes to get skills to V.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11594	Posted - 2015.09.03 19:58:24 - [77] - Quote https://youtu.be/IYyOxoN-QS0 Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 157	Posted - 2015.09.03 20:06:00 - [78] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. Done that within a week by just doing quests.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 31	Posted - 2015.09.03 20:39:26 - [79] - Quote Aerasia wrote: EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. Given the triviality of module items relative to the traditional mmo, it seems reasonable to say you can participate in comparable "end-game," activities faster in EVE with a reasonable time commitment because almost all of them are more team oriented and less dependent on individual skillpoints or modules being at their apex.
Cidanel Afuran Chickenhawk. 164	Posted - 2015.09.03 21:04:35 - [80] - Quote Aerasia wrote: EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. EVE is a hobby, not a game. It's like tinkering with an old car on the weekend more than it's like WoW, Rift or GW2
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 93	Posted - 2015.09.03 21:29:42 - [81] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: +1 To adjust to modern standards and new player expectations I'd recommend they reduce the time it takes to train skills by half I've frequently said to just outright remove them. SP progression is a game mechanic meant for doing two things: Allowing players to learn to master skills one at a time, pacing each new ability out to help prevent them from drowning in complexity. Creating a power curve in content, where a player can feel more powerful while encountering ever more challenging content. EVE doesn't actually have either of those mechanics though. Even the people talking about EWAR/Suicide Tackle/Frigate Logi/etc for newbros won't go to the extent of suggesting your ship should only be half fit. A new players needs to understand a lot of concepts up front, and there are very few things to discover (insofar as ship fittings/mechanics go) once you've got your first combat frigate built. There is also very little in the way of power curve. Mission running provides the closest to that sort of "theme park" experience. Everything else is against other players. You're either engineering an encounter where your victim has no chance, or being subjected to n+10 conflict yourself. Which isn't to say either of those things are wrong, or bad. I'm on board that they are part of the charm of EVE. But it does mean that the arbitrary time wall of SP progression is working in service of game mechanics that don't exist. Zihao wrote: Given the triviality of module items relative to the traditional mmo, it seems reasonable to say you can participate in comparable "end-game," activities faster in EVE with a reasonable time commitment because almost all of them are more team oriented and less dependent on individual skillpoints or modules being at their apex. That participation is only available because of the "n+10" mechanic inherent in an open world game. There is a reason that the Alliance Tournament has to restrict modules to T2 instead of letting the richest team bring in the most blinged out fits.
Milleonia Brundor Borkstar Laboratories 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 21:56:19 - [82] - Quote I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 158	Posted - 2015.09.03 22:01:40 - [83] - Quote Milleonia Brundor wrote: I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll. I don't share your view. I'd certainly say if I thought it was.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 33	Posted - 2015.09.04 00:30:13 - [84] - Quote Aerasia wrote: That participation is only available because of the "n+10" mechanic inherent in an open world game. But that's the point in and of itself. It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things.
Caligula Gaius Claudian Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2015.09.04 01:02:57 - [85] - Quote You've bought a ship you can't fly and now moaning about it? Silly kid. You want pvp without enough isk to cover a single loss? Two weeks in Eve is nothing. Yoy could simply keep continue mining and earn iskies while the training is runnung. It is wierd to read such a tears, have you even thought to learn about the game before you jump into? I mean you could easily invest money and buy a well trained toon from char bazar but i predict that next thing which you would do is start moaning how bad the game is, a lot of inconsistence, gankers arround and yada-yada-yada
Avaelica Kuershin Paper Cats 229	Posted - 2015.09.04 01:48:38 - [86] - Quote Aerasia wrote: They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it. Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system. The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. I took my time, finding the journey interesting, but found the grind really started at level cap and the fun was only really there playing with guildies and chatting on mumble or vent. I'm enjoying taking it slow(ish) in EVE, just looking forward to being able to get a new computer sometime so I don't get lagged out in fights.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 94	Posted - 2015.09.04 04:38:52 - [87] - Quote Avaelica Kuershin wrote: I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. Yeah, you definitely skipped the dark times of WoW leveling. If I recall, they made a pretty big effort to enhance the leveling experience during Cataclysm. I wouldn't be able to say much on that though, I had long since stopped playing. Guild Wars committed the same sin of having their 'end game' be perpetual gear grinding, but at least their leveling was enjoyable enough that I ended up doing it something like 4 times.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.09.04 05:11:16 - [88] - Quote Milleonia Brundor wrote: I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll. I can assure you it's not. I mention in the OP that I was complaining and venting about my frustration in the game as a new player and that is what it was. If i was really trolling I hope i'd come up with a more subtle and creative way to do it. Some people have been kind enough to indulge me and engage in genuine discussion. Pretty cool. On another note, I'm trying to ignore my sp timers and do what sounds fun other than missions so I tried doing some low sec wreck salvaging for T2 modules. Actually had some fun and an exciting time. Got blown up and podded, interacted with a couple players, learned a couple lessons and came back for more. In the end of my little salvaging adventure I came out with about 6 million isk worth of modules which felt like a big haul for me though I know it's not much in the grand scale of things.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 160	Posted - 2015.09.04 08:13:44 - [89] - Quote Avaelica Kuershin wrote: Aerasia wrote: They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it. Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system. The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. I took my time, finding the journey interesting, but found the grind really started at level cap and the fun was only really there playing with guildies and chatting on mumble or vent. I'm enjoying taking it slow(ish) in EVE, just looking forward to being able to get a new computer sometime so I don't get lagged out in fights. WoW's journey was completely ruined by then, world content is far too easy there.
Pro XL Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.09.04 12:59:07 - [90] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. It gets better after the first year or two. I hope. Truth.
Delt0r Garsk Shits N Giggles 427	Posted - 2015.09.04 14:35:57 - [91] - Quote How would no skills even work? I could just get five toons into dreads on the first day? There is progression, and unlike other MMOs its is based on subscribed time. So me having a real job is not always on the back foot against every teenager that can play for 20 hours a day. If you want instant use every item in the game, what is wrong with the FPS genre. But then they tend not to be MMOs. Death and Glory! Well fun is also good.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1451	Posted - 2015.09.04 14:37:13 - [92] - Quote Delt0r Garsk wrote: How would no skills even work? I could just get five toons into dreads on the first day? There is progression, and unlike other MMOs its is based on subscribed time. So me having a real job is not always on the back foot against every teenager that can play for 20 hours a day. If you want instant use every item in the game, what is wrong with the FPS genre. But then they tend not to be MMOs. titans online EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 477	Posted - 2015.09.04 15:20:11 - [93] - Quote Aerasia wrote: PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours. There is far more to gear in PS 2 than weapons you can buy with cash and my argument to those reviewers would be if the basic weapons are the best how come nobody but newbs play the game using them. But let us not waste more space on PS 2 since you are missing the major point ot be made and perhaps that is my fault. Those friends characters have earned more than 3 times the cert points over the same period of real time. If we apply that to EvE those same players characters would have 3 times as many skill points and while that may not make much difference in PS 2 in EvE having 3 times the skill points is a huge difference. Aerasia wrote: Donnachadh wrote: Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it. The only person I know that played WoW took 8 months to accomplish what you did in just 3 weeks because life and the many commitments he has in that life. By the way thank you for providing absolute proof of why we do not want or need the grind for SP in EvE. Aerasia wrote: The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. Still missing the point. CCP has proven over more than 10 years of existence that they do not care about what those other "new games" in town are doing. They have an extremely unique offering in the "me too" world of online games and that is why we like it so much and changing to better fall in line with the "me to" crowd of games would eliminate most of the unique character of the game. Aerasia wrote: EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. Again you miss the point. We simply do not give a damn about the skills progression of any other game new or old. We like that EvE is unique and because of that it offers a gaming experience that you cannot get in any other game. And CCP has repeatedly stated that is how they want it to be. Reading and re-reading all of this and still keep going back to the same place SP and training speed is not the problem. Realizing that EvE is an entirely different gaming environment and the ability and the willingness to adapt your expectations and play style to that environment is key to full enjoyment of EvE and the inability or unwillingness to adapt is the real source of the problems that many new players face. Remember we too were new players once and we made it through because we adapted. Not all that relevant but when I started this character he had 0(zero) skill points and I did not get any booster pill, bonus remaps or any of the other things CCP has wisely chosen to add oer the years, so yes I do know what you are going through and it is because of that that we can and often do clearly see the real problems that you often miss. And in the end EvE is not for every player, it's unique character makes it a game for unique individuals. If it is not for you that is fine go play any or all of those "me to" games that are out there. If you want to play EvE then spend your time and energies coming to terms with what EvE is and how you can better fit into that environment instead of complaining and asking for it to become just another in the endless string of "me to" game offerings.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.04 15:51:53 - [94] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: while that may not make much difference in PS 2 Which was my point. Your analogy would be more "My friend played EVE 3x as long as I did, and now has 3x as many SKINS." Donnachadh wrote: By the way thank you for providing absolute proof of why we do not want or need the grind for SP in EvE. Agreed. Donnachadh wrote: CCP has proven over more than 10 years of existence that they do not care about what those other "new games" in town are doing. ... Not all that relevant but when I started this character he had 0(zero) skill points and I did not get any booster pill, bonus remaps or any of the other things CCP has wisely chosen to add oer the years, No. They don't care at *all. Donnachadh wrote:* Remember we too were new players once and we made it through because we adapted. Confirmation bias isn't proof of the exquisite design of the SP system. People "make it through" car accidents, cancer and Beiber Fever too, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the people who don't.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.09.04 16:19:28 - [95] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Aerasia wrote: PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours. There is far more to gear in PS 2 than weapons you can buy with cash and my argument to those reviewers would be if the basic weapons are the best how come nobody but newbs play the game using them. But let us not waste more space on PS 2 since you are missing the major point ot be made and perhaps that is my fault. Those friends characters have earned more than 3 times the cert points over the same period of real time. If we apply that to EvE those same players characters would have 3 times as many skill points and while that may not make much difference in PS 2 in EvE having 3 times the skill points is a huge difference. [quote=Aerasia] The only person I know that played WoW took 8 months to accomplish what you did in just 3 weeks because life and the many commitments he has in that life. By the way thank you for providing absolute proof of why we do not want or need the grind for SP in EvE. Again you miss the point. We simply do not give a damn about the skills progression of any other game new or old. We like that EvE is unique and because of that it offers a gaming experience that you cannot get in any other game. And CCP has repeatedly stated that is how they want it to be. Reading and re-reading all of this and still keep going back to the same place SP and training speed is not the problem. Realizing that EvE is an entirely different gaming environment and the ability and the willingness to adapt your expectations and play style to that environment is key to full enjoyment of EvE and the inability or unwillingness to adapt is the real source of the problems that many new players face. Remember we too were new players once and we made it through because we adapted. Not all that relevant but when I started this character he had 0(zero) skill points and I did not get any booster pill, bonus remaps or any of the other things CCP has wisely chosen to add oer the years, so yes I do know what you are going through and it is because of that that we can and often do clearly see the real problems that you often miss. And in the end EvE is not for every player, it's unique character makes it a game for unique individuals. If it is not for you that is fine go play any or all of those "me to" games that are out there. If you want to play EvE then spend your time and energies coming to terms with what EvE is and how you can better fit into that environment instead of complaining and asking for it to become just another in the endless string of "me to" game offerings. Ya know bro, I get the impression that you haven't played many other actual MMORPGs. Modern or otherwise. Comparing a online multiplayer FPS like PS2 to EVE or any other MMORPG is like apples and oranges. I can say that EVE is not as unique as you think it is, nor is it only for special snowflakes like yourself. It's a grind just like any other. Maybe the grind is setup differently, but still a grind. It's the sandbox aspect that make it interesting. Not so much its various UIs, systems, and game play mechanics which range from bad to awful. What you seem to think is great about EVE is what others think are its drawbacks. This game has a well earned reputation and it's players do as well. Coming into this thread and saying "We like things the way are and if you don't like it, tough." is not helpful to new players and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion. You haven't made a logical argument supporting your case that EVE's skill training system is superior to any other in more modern games. As it is now, newbs cannot catch up to vets who have been in the game for years. I guess that's good for the vets, not so much for new players who want to be competitive with them and basically no matter how long someone plays the actual game and its content it won't make a difference with the current system. If CCP is more about it's vets and staying true to it's artistic vision then it is making a profit and growing its player base, it will eventually go out of business. Maybe not this year, or five years from now, but at some point. That's not my problem nor my concern though, I'm just interested in finding more ways to enjoy this game until Star Citizen or EVE: Valkyrie comes out.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.04 16:33:40 - [96] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: As it is now, newbs cannot catch up to vets who have been in the game for years. I'm in general agreement, but this one is like a mailman strapping a steak to their belt. It isn't that newbs can't catch up to vets, but that the wait is far longer than it needs to be (which itself assume there even needs to be a wait). Consider the "time to parity" for MMOs: WoW: a few weeks, or just buy a 90 (95? 106? It's been a while since I've cared what their current cap is). Planetside: a few hours. Guild Wars 2: 0 hours (though some things are restricted now that they're F2P, I guess?) EVE: 4-6 months. It's not forever, but it's far longer than it has to be.
Milleonia Brundor Borkstar Laboratories 0	Posted - 2015.09.04 17:19:36 - [97] - Quote Eve is not an instant gratification game. It is about careful planning and work. If you are looking for a different kind of mmo, such as WoW for example, then you are looking in the wrong place. If you believe as a new player you are totally incapable, then you will be incapable. Learn how to play Eve, be patient, meet people and work with them. ((I still think this thread is a troll))
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1221	Posted - 2015.09.04 18:20:28 - [98] - Quote Enjoy the journey. Forget about the destination. Aerasia wrote: A new players needs to understand a lot of concepts up front, and there are very few things to discover (insofar as ship fittings/mechanics go) once you've got your first combat frigate built. Are we even playing the same game? Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5325	Posted - 2015.09.04 18:27:18 - [99] - Quote If I haven't already mentioned it in this thread (I probably have, but anyways)... It takes 45 days to train for every T1 sub-capital ship and its weapons to a useful level of competence (level 3). Frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships. ALL of them can be yours in that time! But wait! There's more! All navy and pirate faction ships too! Call now! Operators are standing by! OR you can choose to be a more effective pilot in a smaller number of ships, or even specialize in a single ship-class or just one ship. Example: if your corp has a Talwar fleet, and you join in a 100% T1 fitted Talwar, it is very likely nobody will notice, nor care. It is also very likely that you will learn a lot and have fun. Should you have the misfortune of losing it, you will also have the lowest replacement cost. Should you run out of ISK, chances are if you are a nice decent person, someone will be willing to donate enough ISK to you to buy 5 or more to get you back on your feet. Heck, many corps hand these sort of ships out FREE. By far the most common problem encountered by rookies is the idea they need level 5 skills before they undock. The second most common problem is training skills that don't have a significant and immediate benefit to their game-play. A single level 5 skill is often less immediately beneficial than two level 4 skills, or four level 3 skills, or eight level 2 skills. There are a lot of skills in EVE. However, very few of them will impact the ship you are piloting. Keep focused. "Stay on target!"
Samuel Triptee Frankenstuff 106	Posted - 2015.09.04 19:30:59 - [100] - Quote Milleonia Brundor wrote: I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll. Troll or not... the thread is one of the best to give a new player an in-depth view of the mindset required to play Eve. IN ADDITION!!! (to the OP) Flying tackle is flying a 10 million ISK frig, finding and holding onto a 400 million ISK battleship long enough for your fleet mates to come and give him the ticket to podsville.... effin glorious! Flying Logi is just as fun... 10 guys in your fleet and two of you are keeping everyone alive long enough to hold the field through 5 minutes of complete mayhem.... in the end you collect your mate's thanks and accolades. They'll want you back and trust you enough to risk even more. Flying DPS is also very cool... follow the FC's directions and keep your ship alive by letting your logibros know you need help. Be quick, be accurate... booooom! My point is that all parts of flying in a fleet have their own merits and thrills. Especially when you hold the field. If you fly solo, you better be able to tackle, manage your ship's health, and apply the DPS, all at the same time. Try it all. Cheers! Triptee Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?
Renard Solo Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 82	Posted - 2015.09.04 19:31:19 - [101] - Quote Just my two bits but I like sp. I like knowing while im at work my skills are training, I don't mind the wait as I go do something else. At the moment I training into battleships for some lvl 4 missions, but while im waiting im off exploring and having fun. I think the fact you actually have to put effort into getting what you want is great, it adds reward. I also like the fact theres no exclusion for speed runs/ specific armour sets/ specific achievements. None of the "zomg no super special orange/purplesets? Nooooob u cnt play wiv us. We leet" Yes eve is a slow burner but it is set apart because of that and just takes a little more thought is all.
shadowhearth Eto XYRESIC. 28	Posted - 2015.09.05 00:18:44 - [102] - Quote I actually love this eve skill training system. I work 4-5 days 11h shifts. On days off I try to spend time with oh. So my playing time is very limited. Having skills trained while I am at work is just great. One more thing about system, that you can do something else while training skills. For example when I play I do level 4 missions, but I am training right now exploration skills and cloaking. It's refreshing system with a lot of flexibility. At least you don't need to grind 199 mobs to get that one skill/stay/level. I value my character and it's abilities with skills a lot more then in any other mmorpg. It took me a very long time to train flying a battle ship and be able to fit T2 guns back in the day. Though now I am proud of it and those skills mean me a lot more tjen any level in any other mmorpg. Downside is obviously some very very long requirements for some skills. I really want to fly paladin, but it is 68 days training for me... I won't even start it any time soon as I am focusing my skills elsewhere. So yeah, I love this skill system. It's unique amd has more positives then downsides. Makes characters way more meaningful and important too.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 480	Posted - 2015.09.05 04:24:52 - [103] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I can say that EVE is not as unique as you think it is, nor is it only for special snowflakes like yourself. It's a grind just like any other. Maybe the grind is setup differently, but still a grind. It's the sandbox aspect that make it interesting. At some level ALL computer games are a grind, when and where have I ever stated otherwise. So let's just clarify your mis-understanding. Going back to the OP they are asking for a grind style of SP gain in fact Aerasia provides this discussion with the most obvious example of what that is when she / he posted this . "Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it." As I pointed out she / he accomplished in 3 weeks what it took a friend of mine 8 months to do. This style of directly linking SP (or whatever you call it ) to the sheer number of hours played is what myself and many others that like this game are against because it puts those with nothing in their lives but playing video games at a distinct advantage. If the sandbox aspect of EvE is what makes it "interesting" what other online game offers an EvE like sandbox? I do not play a lot of other games (back to that life thing and not much time) so please inform us cause I would like to go look into them. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Not so much its various UIs, systems, and game play mechanics which range from bad to awful. What you seem to think is great about EVE is what others think are its drawbacks. This game has a well earned reputation and it's players do as well. Still not getting the points are we. We players rather like our sandbox BECAUSE of it's differences and that includes it's game play mechanics and it's quirky UI and we do not want it to change to be the same as all the other games out there. And considering the amount of time CCP has spent on tweaks to the UI if they wanted to make it like everyone else's I am sure they could and would have done that. From this we can surmise that for at least the present time CCP is happy with a UI that is not the same as every other game. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Coming into this thread and saying "We like things the way are and if you don't like it, tough." is not helpful to new players and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion. And you coming in here as a new player with barely a month in the game and telling us that the game MUST change to meet your expectations no matter what we long term players want is not helping either so I guess we are equal in that. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: You haven't made a logical argument supporting your case that EVE's skill training system is superior to any other in more modern games. I have stated it very clearly you just refuse to accept it and that is not my fault. So let's try again. The training system in EvE is superior to all other games for 1 (one) important reason. ALL PLAYERS ARE CREATED EQUAL when it comes to how fast you can train skills. If you play 1 hour a week or 10 hours a day it does not matter both characters can train skills at the exact same rate provided they are willing to remap and invest in appropriate implants. From your point of view where you have the hysterical belief that you can "catch up" to the vets I can see your point but you are dead wrong, see below. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: As it is now, newbs cannot catch up to vets who have been in the game for years. I guess that's good for the vets, not so much for new players who want to be competitive with them and basically no matter how long someone plays the actual game and its content it won't make a difference with the current system. Provided we both stay in the game that long and CCP does not add or remove any skills it will take you about 27 years to catch up with this character because that was the last estimate I saw on how long it would take to train all skills in the game to level 5. And that is the hysterical part, new players like you come into this game with the idea that they can "catch up" to vets. So this is where the understanding of the game, how it works and what the REAL value of a characters SP is comes into play. If you have a vision of what you want to do and you stay on track with your training you can do many of the same things the vets can and at a competitive level in as little as 2 -3 months. Keep that vision and your training in mind and stay on track with your training and by time you have been in the game about 12 to 18 months the SP gap becomes largely irrelevant and your skill or lack of as a player becomes the limiting factor. Please to excuse this I seem to be at the 5 quote limit so I will do it this way instead. A quote from Caladan Panzureborn "If CCP is more about it's vets and staying true to it's artistic vision then it is making a profit and growing its player base, it will eventually go out of business. Maybe not this year, or five years from now, but at some point. That's not my problem nor my concern though, I'm just interested in finding more ways to enjoy this game until Star Citizen or EVE: Valkyrie comes out." CCP cares about ALL players no matter how long they have been in the game. But they have shown repeatedly over the years that they are not willing to change to be like all the other games, and they have shown that they are not willing to remove the skills training system that is such an integral part of this game and this despite years of people like you telling them it must change.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.05 19:10:53 - [104] - Quote wrote: I think the fact you actually have to put effort into getting what you want is great, it adds reward. What effort goes into the SP system though? Learning to fly a ship takes a while, true. Getting the SP to fly a ship on the other hand is the matter of ~45 seconds and a dozen or so mouse clicks. shadowhearth Eto wrote: It took me a very long time to train flying a battle ship and be able to fit T2 guns back in the day. Though now I am proud of it and those skills mean me a lot more tjen any level in any other mmorpg. Proud of what? What did you do to get those skills? You clicked on "I'd like to fly Battleships in a couple weeks, please." and then went to "work 4-5 days 11h shifts".
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1381	Posted - 2015.09.05 19:53:05 - [105] - Quote committing to training plan is effort in itself. It's all too tempting to find something you might want to train that detracts from your overall goal and this will eventually slow you down and you'll have skillpoints dotted around that aren't a cohesive unit that work in any particular ship. As for effort, the SP system requires effort to plan. Sure you can go ahead and say "hey i click a few things and there's my skill" however managing that queue is it's own minigame in itself.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 37	Posted - 2015.09.05 20:44:01 - [106] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: committing to training plan is effort in itself. It's all too tempting to find something you might want to train that detracts from your overall goal and this will eventually slow you down and you'll have skillpoints dotted around that aren't a cohesive unit that work in any particular ship. As for effort, the SP system requires effort to plan. Sure you can go ahead and say "hey i click a few things and there's my skill" however managing that queue is it's own minigame in itself. Incredibly prescient observation. I've found that to be sooo true. Every iteration of my ~master plan~ ends up being unrecognizable a week later. At this point I have a pretty decent idea of what I'd like to train long-term, but I still get the itch to train that one skill at level 2 to level 3 if for no other reason than pleasant uniformity.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.05 21:23:32 - [107] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: committing to training plan is effort in itself. Well, if committing to a plan and then not touching anything for extended periods of time are your thing, I think I have the game for you.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 172	Posted - 2015.09.06 00:56:29 - [108] - Quote Aerasia wrote: wrote: I think the fact you actually have to put effort into getting what you want is great, it adds reward. What effort goes into the SP system though? Learning to fly a ship takes a while, true. Getting the SP to fly a ship on the other hand is the matter of ~45 seconds and a dozen or so mouse clicks. shadowhearth Eto wrote: It took me a very long time to train flying a battle ship and be able to fit T2 guns back in the day. Though now I am proud of it and those skills mean me a lot more tjen any level in any other mmorpg. Proud of what? What did you do to get those skills? You clicked on "I'd like to fly Battleships in a couple weeks, please." and then went to "work 4-5 days 11h shifts". It's a point of view I guess. The only thing I can think of that somone might be proud about with training skills, is that they managed to stick around. I'd have said relieved that another long skill had been trained, rather than proud.
Luckytania Bullets of Justice 36	Posted - 2015.09.06 05:34:56 - [109] - Quote Zihao wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: committing to training plan is effort in itself. It's all too tempting to find something you might want to train that detracts from your overall goal and this will eventually slow you down and you'll have skillpoints dotted around that aren't a cohesive unit that work in any particular ship. As for effort, the SP system requires effort to plan. Sure you can go ahead and say "hey i click a few things and there's my skill" however managing that queue is it's own minigame in itself. Incredibly prescient observation. I've found that to be sooo true. Every iteration of my ~master plan~ ends up being unrecognizable a week later. At this point I have a pretty decent idea of what I'd like to train long-term, but I still get the itch to train that one skill at level 2 to level 3 if for no other reason than pleasant uniformity. I've not read this thread (apologies), but if it hasn't been mentioned, y'all might really appreciate an out of game tool named "EVEMon". Let's you plan out several skill plan paths. As you get further along you'll appreciate using it to plan ahead for Attribute remapping times to optimize skill plan implementation efficiency. Let's you see what skills enable using what. Very useful.
Malt Zedong WorldTradersGuild.Com 40	Posted - 2015.09.06 05:51:58 - [110] - Quote For someone who like traditional MMO, EVE may be not the right game for a number of reasons. And when you finally get the skills you need, you will face the other hundreds of reasons. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 760	Posted - 2015.09.06 12:50:47 - [111] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: The concept of having skills train while you are away is nice in theory. But the time it takes to get things to level 5 is really long. If they cut the time it takes to get most skills to level V in half in most cases it would still be too long for me. Modern games that have standard MMO style level progression will usually get you to level cap in a much faster pace. Or not even level cap necessarily but to a point where you can have some fun and get into the "meat" of it. I think of SWTOR where as a level 22 character (nowhere near cap) I was able to get kills in PvP and contribute to my team with their awesome Bolster system that put me on par with end game characters. Not exactly on par, but enough to make a difference if I played well. I understand that as a sandbox, there is no level cap and no endgame and that is a double edged sword. I can be impulsive when it comes to gaming and making decisions based on my perceptions and the perception here is that this is a massive time commitment and one I'm not sure I can hang with. People have said, "1-2 weeks is nothing to get into X ship. I had to wait 30-45 days to get into x" or whatever, and I just can't wrap my head around waiting 1-2 months to do anything in a video game. Just having that knowledge over my head, the timer staring me in the face is daunting. I understand where you are coming from because I was once there myself but I believe you are missing the point and stuck in the mindset of other MMOs that does not apply here. The only time that you ever need level 5 anything is to unlock some other skill and even in those cases you are typically talking about T2 stuff that there are plenty of viable T1 alternatives to fly while you train towards it. Also Eve is a very deep game and I believe that you get access to skills at a rate that is roughly equivalent to the rate at which you gain the ability to use them. So your comments here are coming from the mindset that you need to be level capped and fully decked out in purple's before you can do anything. In eve you can do pretty much anything you want on day one. There is no need to train to level 5. Yes those skills are nice to have and you will eventually want to train many level 5 skills but not having them does not hold you back from anything. The eveiseasy youtube channel has plenty of examples of a vet kicking ass in PvP on a days old alt. Also we've all heard from newbro's who bought higher skill point characters and then came here to whine about how the game is not fair after the amount of fail in their gameplay didn't change even with more skill points. In Eve you need to learn the game. That lack of knowledge and that learning curve is what is holding newer player back more than anything, but even at that I think you are missing the main point that differentiates Eve from other MMOs and that is that Eve is a true MMO in that it is massive (all however many players are logged into the game are in the same game and can interact with each other, no "realms".) and it is truly multiplayer. Are there things that you can do solo in Eve? Well yes but the devs have stated repeatedly that they intentionally design the game around encouraging group efforts over solo. So in the sense that this game is designed and intended to be played in groups it is a true mulitplayer game. And in that line of thinking you can jump in fleet with friends and do what ever you want on day one. It would take something like 22 years to train all skills to level 5 so no one has done it yet since the game has only been around about 11 or so. If Eve were to make a level cap then they would have to introduce mechanics that make it so that you need to get to level cap and then keep extending that level cap and you get into a level and gear progression thing that frankly I don't care for. I think the lack of a level cap and the fact that a brand new player can join me on what ever I am doing and be productive is what makes this game awesome. I love the fact that being "all decked out" in the best in slot gear doesn't matter in this game. In Eve what matters is who you are as a person and not how many skill points your character has or what kind of gear he/she is wearing. I like that fact a lot and if you don't then there are countless other MMOs out there that suit your tastes. I'm sorry if I sound a little butt hurt but I am so sick of hear from players coming to Eve from all the other MMO's (which they are obviously not happy with or they would not be looking for a new game) and whinning about how Eve is not the same as every other MMO out there. If you like the level cap system so much almost every other MMO out there has it so go play anything else. I personally think that the lack of a level cap system is what makes Eve great. As far as you being impulsive yes Eve does not favor impulsive people. Eve is designed to reward patients and planning. But again when I say patients I'm not talking about "waiting for skills to train" I'm talking about putting in the time and effort to learn. As far as "being in the meat of it" you can do that in Eve on day one.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1384	Posted - 2015.09.06 12:52:03 - [112] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: committing to training plan is effort in itself. Well, if committing to a plan and then not touching anything for extended periods of time are your thing, I think I have the game for you. You have to take into account what it means to your overall gameplay when you commit to a plan. Does your corp require it? Is it something you want to try out in the near future? Anyway to be fair from the responses you've made I am pretty certain you're just producing conflict for the sake of it.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 760	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:01:40 - [113] - Quote Retfird Rats wrote: EVE is fun for a few months then the missions get repetitive, you get continually war dec'ed and hunted because you're a new player, you find out you can't do several of the things you're interested in unless you play for like 2 or more years, and are constantly waiting on skills that take long wait times to turnover to find out there is more you need to unlock to get what you want and/or the skill you just spent a number of days getting is not really helping you that much anyway. I am sorry I paid for a year for this game because feeling done right... about... now. Quote: Eve is as accessible as it needs to be. It forces people out who don't want to learn, can't learn or simply dislike the game. That's good. Keep saying that as EVE space gets more and more empty. Eve is a PvP game. The missions are supposed to get repetitive. High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. Yes if you are in a high sec carebear corp you will get wardeced perpetually. The answer to this is getting out of high sec and understanding that the PvE in this game is just there for you to earn isk to PvP. There is absolutely nothing in this game that you have to wait two or more years to do unless you are talking about being all level 5 for a Titan and there is no reason for you to be all level 5 for any ship. The fact that you think you need to wait for skills to train or that you need to have skills at level 5 shows how you just don't get this game and you are not giving it a shot and you are trying to play Eve as if it were WoW. Not to mention that Titans are not fun to fly, every Titan pilot in game is an alt. When most PvPers talk about the funnest PvP it all happens in medium and small hulls and you have the skill points to do well in a frigates in two weeks.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:04:25 - [114] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. I disagree, the area is far too big if that was the intension.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 760	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:21:45 - [115] - Quote Avvy wrote: As for waiting for fun, can't really comment as I'm not really doing much myself (hardly anything unless you count the forum). Level 5 skills do take awhile, I wonder how this game would play out if you didn't need level 5s before you could use items/ships. In my case I'm just playing skill queue online at the moment, what I have found is the attributes are a bit of a pain. That's because when you set your attributes up to favour certain skills you are stuck with those skills because switching to others will be a huge drop in efficiency. There is no need to fly T2 ships your having to train level 5 of the T1 version is not hindering your enjoyment of the game. I have north of 100 million skill points on my main and own multiple marauders and the ship that I fly every day to earn isk is a T1 Battleship. Most of the players that I know that have been playing for years and have very high skill points PvP almost entirely in tech 1: frigs, dessies, and cruisers. As far as the attributes goes you are supposed to have to make tough decisions and deal with the consequences. That is one of the main things in Eve.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 760	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:25:59 - [116] - Quote Avvy wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Don't be sucked into the mindset where you feel you need level 5 before you can play. Especially when starting out, don't bother with training anything to level 5 unless it's a prereq for something you want... There are quite a few of them that are prerequisites. Name the level 5 prerequ that is keeping you from doing something or having fun in this game.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 760	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:29:39 - [117] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: IF there were to be an overhaul of the entire way SP worked and length of time shortened significantly I can only see it benefiting the health of the game. Less time waiting on requisites is more time spent flying what you want or doing what you want to do. For a game, I don't think having to wait a long time to do something adds value to it. If you are waiting on skills to train then you are playing Eve wrong.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1384	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:44:21 - [118] - Quote Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. I disagree, the area is far too big if that was the intention. This is hilarious. Check the number of systems that are not high sec and then let us know what is big and what is not.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 174	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:46:33 - [119] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: Avvy wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Don't be sucked into the mindset where you feel you need level 5 before you can play. Especially when starting out, don't bother with training anything to level 5 unless it's a prereq for something you want... There are quite a few of them that are prerequisites. Name the level 5 prerequ that is keeping you from doing something or having fun in this game. I'm presently training for interceptors, so there are two I can think of straight away, evasive manoeuvring and the frigate hull. Already trained evasive manoeuvring to 5, but as my attributes are heavily set on intelligence I've remained learning defense, core, ecm/eccm type skills and navigation. So when I get around to altering the attributes to mainly perception with the remaining in willpower, I'll start training, turrets, and ship hulls again. The problem is that the skills change too frequently when you're a new player in terms of the attributes required.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 174	Posted - 2015.09.06 13:48:28 - [120] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. I disagree, the area is far too big if that was the intention. Check the number of systems that are not high sec and then let us know what is big and what is not. Yes, I know. But there are still far too many high-sec systems if it's just meant to be a temporary stop over.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1453	Posted - 2015.09.06 14:18:00 - [121] - Quote Avvy wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. I disagree, the area is far too big if that was the intention. Check the number of systems that are not high sec and then let us know what is big and what is not. Yes, I know. But there are still far too many high-sec systems if it's just meant to be a temporary stop over. when you get to a stage where you are complaining that there is not enough content and trying to pull activities from other space is an indication you have outlived highsec EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1453	Posted - 2015.09.06 14:28:33 - [122] - Quote Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: Avvy wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Don't be sucked into the mindset where you feel you need level 5 before you can play. Especially when starting out, don't bother with training anything to level 5 unless it's a prereq for something you want... There are quite a few of them that are prerequisites. Name the level 5 prerequ that is keeping you from doing something or having fun in this game. I'm presently training for interceptors, so there are two I can think of straight away, evasive manoeuvring and the frigate hull. Already trained evasive manoeuvring to 5, but as my attributes are heavily set on intelligence I've remained learning defense, core, ecm/eccm type skills and navigation. So when I get around to altering the attributes to mainly perception with the remaining in willpower, I'll start training, turrets, and ship hulls again. The problem is that the skills change too frequently when you're a new player in terms of the attributes required. if you need hulls then get small guns to lvl 5 which is about a week or so, then frigate and you open up a ton of new ships and even t1 ships are great with t2 weapons, interceptors is a pretty long train but you have enough ships to actually learn how to fly first while you get into interceptors i dont get why people complain about the training times, when i started i was so overwelmed with flying what i had and having fun to worry about training times EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 174	Posted - 2015.09.06 14:34:26 - [123] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Avvy wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. I disagree, the area is far too big if that was the intention. Check the number of systems that are not high sec and then let us know what is big and what is not. Yes, I know. But there are still far too many high-sec systems if it's just meant to be a temporary stop over. when you get to a stage where you are complaining that there is not enough content and trying to pull activities from other space is an indication you have outlived highsec I'm not complaining as such, it's a discussion not a complaint. Discussions would be boring if everyone just agreed all the time. The only real complaint would be the attribute system. Low-sec and null wouldn't help on that one. Still loaded GW2 up again Friday night so got a few things to do there whilst I'm in training here. Before you say it I'm not complaining it was my choice. Got a few things I don't mind finishing off in GW2 anyway, so it's all good.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1453	Posted - 2015.09.06 14:37:21 - [124] - Quote i didnt mean you, it was a generalisation towards the amount of other people complain about those things EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 174	Posted - 2015.09.06 14:51:04 - [125] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: i didnt mean you, it was a generalisation towards the amount of other people complain about those things Ah, ok But even those discussions can be useful sometimes. Just because it gets mentioned in the forums doesn't mean it will alter the game. Even a complaint doesn't have to be negative, although if it's made in such a way that it's not really open to discussion then it is. Don't know if you agree with that, but it's time for me to log. There's a drink in one of these establishment around here with my name on it.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 761	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:07:50 - [126] - Quote Avvy wrote: I'm presently training for interceptors, so there are two I can think of straight away, evasive manoeuvring and the frigate hull. Already trained evasive manoeuvring to 5, but as my attributes are heavily set on intelligence I've remained learning defense, core, ecm/eccm type skills and navigation. So when I get around to altering the attributes to mainly perception with the remaining in willpower, I'll start training, turrets, and ship hulls again. The problem is that the skills change too frequently when you're a new player in terms of the attributes required. Holy Cow you don't remapp for a focused remap like that when you are new. You keep your attribute points spread around so that you can train everything. So you are training for interceptors. I asked where a level 5 skill was preventing you from doing something or having fun. First off racial frigate 5 does not take long. Second anything that can be done in a interceptor can be done in a T1 hull. I'm not going to say that interceptors aren't nice I'm just saying that you can tackle someone in a T1 frig and PvP in a T1 frig and honestly a new player really has no business flying an interceptor into PvP until he learns more about the game. In this game ships are a tool to get a job done and a consumable tool at that. I'm not asking what tool that you can't fly. I'm asking what job can't you do. I can tell you now that you are either a poor troll or you seriously do not have the right mindset for this game. Either way the inability to sit in an interceptor is preventing your from participating in nothing so my question still remains.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 761	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:12:04 - [127] - Quote Avvy wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: High sec is just there for you to get your feet wet it was never intended for people to live there indefinitely. I disagree, the area is far too big if that was the intention. You are disagreeing with what? Watch some dev videos read some old dev blogs and watch some old fanfest videos. You will see the devs say again and again that they design the game intentionally to push people out of high sec and into riskier areas of space. You can disagree if you like but you've got nothing to back it up.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 761	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:18:40 - [128] - Quote Avvy wrote: Yes, I know. But there are still far too many high-sec systems if it's just meant to be a temporary stop over. I never said temporary stop over. I said it was not meant for you to "live" there indefinitely. Yes most players do come back to high sec often and for various reasons but I'm saying the game is intentionally designed to push you out of high sec after you learn the basics. If you are sitting in high sec running missions or minning day after day you are missing most of this game and are in no position to judge it since you've not even seen 90+% of the game.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 761	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:36:32 - [129] - Quote Avvy wrote: The only real complaint would be the attribute system. Again I will repeat post #115. In Eve you are supposed to have to make decisions that carry consequences and deal with the results of that. If you are not happy with having making tough decisions and compromises then you won't be happy with this game. The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. That mindset is from other MMOs that have different mechanics and different game designs and different intentions and they are not Eve. You are not playing Eve. You are in Eve playing WoW or GW2 or FFXIV or any number of other MMOs that are all pretty much the same as each other but none of them resemble this game and none of their base concept translates over to this game. If you try and play eve as if it were like those other games you are not going to have a good time here and don't blame Eve for that since you never really gave the game a shot. You are trying to play Eve as if it were those other games and when you find out it's not instead of learning the game and adapting to the mechanics you come to the forums to complain how it's different.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 175	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:56:38 - [130] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: Avvy wrote: The only real complaint would be the attribute system. Again I will repeat post #115. In Eve you are supposed to have to make decisions that carry consequences and deal with the results of that. If you are not happy with having making tough decisions and compromises then you won't be happy with this game. The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. That mindset is from other MMOs that have different mechanics and different game designs and different intentions and they are not Eve. You are not playing Eve. You are in Eve playing WoW or GW2 or FFXIV or any number of other MMOs that are all pretty much the same as each other but none of them resemble this game and none of their base concept translates over to this game. If you try and play eve as if it were like those other games you are not going to have a good time here and don't blame Eve for that since you never really gave the game a shot. You are trying to play Eve as if it were those other games and when you find out it's not instead of learning the game and adapting to the mechanics you come to the forums to complain how it's different. Thank you for your concern that this might not be the right game for me, but time will tell. As for attributes even CCP doesn't think they add much to the game. Attributes tend to be a hindrance at the start, but once you've been here a few years I doubt you hardly notice them as the training times are so long and by then you have most of the basic skills you need.
Harrison Tato Immortalis Fratres Vacui Legio immortales CXCI 483	Posted - 2015.09.07 16:27:35 - [131] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: You've gotten into the habit of ~~everything being handed to you, it's now very tough to get out of that mindset but you'll find that you become a much better gamer in general after you do~~ paying for games that you can start enjoying in less than a year. FIFY
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 50	Posted - 2015.09.07 19:50:46 - [132] - Quote Oh it's just a year now, thank goodness. You trolls had me convinced it was 50mil sp in the other thread.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1396	Posted - 2015.09.07 20:54:01 - [133] - Quote Harrison Tato wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: You've gotten into the habit of ~~everything being handed to you, it's now very tough to get out of that mindset but you'll find that you become a much better gamer in general after you do~~ paying for games that you can start enjoying in less than a year. FIFY Why would you keep playing if you weren't enjoying it? EVE isn't for everyone, CCP has acknowledged this.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 00:12:10 - [134] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1224	Posted - 2015.09.08 00:28:32 - [135] - Quote Aerasia wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP. You are dead wrong. There are a million examples of successful newbros PVPing with low SP. If you can't figure out how to play without max skills then the skills aren't the problem - you are. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Johnny Riko KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 14	Posted - 2015.09.08 00:34:05 - [136] - Quote Aerasia wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP. That's ridiculous. I really don't understand this mentality. If it were the case then the people who top the killboards for all ships would have the most expensive faction/office modules in every slot. Eve PvP is much more than having the best ship/modules/skills. I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11657	Posted - 2015.09.08 00:49:29 - [137] - Quote Aerasia wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP. cough<------ishkur pilot had 6(ish) million skillpoints to his name at this point verses Est. skill points52 million and three years of gamplay experiance patience ,willingness to accept guidance , and big mother****ing balls are all you need to pull something like that off Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 02:32:17 - [138] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: patience ,willingness to accept guidance , and big mother**ing balls are all you need to pull something like that off A fully T2 fit Assault Frigate probably doesn't hurt. But you're right. If you try hard enough, and long enough, you'll eventually find somebody anti-tanked enough with stupid to overcome all the advantages handed to them. Johnny Riko wrote: Eve PvP is much more than having the best ship/modules/skills. It's also having the best links/drugs. If PvP was just about having heart, determination and numbers, Brave would own half of nullsec. Eventually you're going to run out of n+1, and you're going to need to pony up some better gear if you want to win. Do you think it's a coincidence that RvB puts "Hey, downship for fights if you have to - don't be a " in their FAQ? Or that the Alliance Tournament needs rules about deadspace mods? Cara Forelli wrote:** There are a million examples of successful newbros PVPing with low SP. There's a million examples of newbros killwhoring on gatecamps, or F1-ing when the FC tells them to. There's also a million examples of newbros getting their ISK pushed in when somebody with some bigger bling to throw at the fight decides to take down a fleet twice their size. You can certainly participate in PvP with a two week old character. In the same way you could participate in the NFL. The difference is, I don't blame people for aiming a little higher than participation.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.09.08 05:07:06 - [139] - Quote It's nice to see the discussion is still going, though where it's going? Not sure. I'm still playing the game. I've tried joining a few corps. No luck there yet on one that fits my needs. Mining still appeals to me as a way of making ISK so Industry V just has one day left on the timer. Then I'll have a couple other skills i'll need to get to IV to be able to hop in the Procurer. My current fun in the game has been looting battle wrecks in low sec and null sec for sexy T2 modules worth a ton of ISK(to me as a newb anyway). I've found the threat of getting killed while I try to get to the best wrecks pretty exciting. I've had some good fun evading the dudes that try to kill me (so far so good thank you Warp Stabs) and it's pretty satisfying getting in and out of an area intact and with a cargo bay full of loots. I've been fired on like four times and was able to get away each time though one guy got me down to like 20% hull in what seemed like a single volley before i got out of there. I bought a T1 Freighter to haul all my crap around and once I got about 100 mill worth of stuff together I decided to make the trip to Jita to see what it would be like and with the hope of selling everything quickly. Again, i found the possibility of danger pretty exciting and wasn't sure if any Jita Gankers would make a go for my ship. I had read that you need to have a cargo hold worth of a least a billion ISK for them to go for ya, not sure if that's the case or not. I made it in and out of Jita without a hitch. Sold everything I brought and with a decent amount of change in the bank, thought ok, I can fly the Vexor now if I feel like it. As I was heading home from Jita in the freighter, I came across a T2 or T3 Cruiser wreck just sitting their with no one around. I moseyed on over to it at a whopping 150 m/s lol and boom: cha ching! 344 million ISK worth of modules. Awesome. I wasn't about to warp back to Jita with the yellow suspect time going so i docked a jump away and waited it out. Once the timer was clear, nervously jumped back into Jita and docked again with no problem, though as I was docking, a freighter next to me exploded. Eek! Better him than me, I thought. Came away with another 340 million or so. Easy money. I do still want to get into traditional ship combat PvP and plan on training up my T1 frigate skills I need once the mining stuff is done I've also considered doing my battle wreck looting in my Vexor so if any one does come after me, instead of running I would put up a fight as it's usually just one or two ships that come after me, but I'm not so sure if that's a profitable way to go. But could be fun! As it is now, I'm using a cheaply fitted Imicus for it and it's been working well as it has a decent cargo hold and is small and fast enough and if anyone did catch me slippin', meh. Less than a mill to replace and back at it.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1400	Posted - 2015.09.08 12:27:59 - [140] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: patience ,willingness to accept guidance , and big mother**ing balls are all you need to pull something like that off A fully T2 fit Assault Frigate probably doesn't hurt. But you're right. If you try hard enough, and long enough, you'll eventually find somebody anti-tanked enough with stupid to overcome all the advantages handed to them. Johnny Riko wrote: Eve PvP is much more than having the best ship/modules/skills. It's also having the best links/drugs. If PvP was just about having heart, determination and numbers, Brave would own half of nullsec. Eventually you're going to run out of n+1, and you're going to need to pony up some better gear if you want to win. Do you think it's a coincidence that RvB puts "Hey, downship for fights if you have to - don't be a " in their FAQ? Or that the Alliance Tournament needs rules about deadspace mods? Cara Forelli wrote:** There are a million examples of successful newbros PVPing with low SP. There's a million examples of newbros killwhoring on gatecamps, or F1-ing when the FC tells them to. There's also a million examples of newbros getting their ISK pushed in when somebody with some bigger bling to throw at the fight decides to take down a fleet twice their size. You can certainly participate in PvP with a two week old character. In the same way you could participate in the NFL. The difference is, I don't blame people for aiming a little higher than participation. You're just bad. That's all there is to it.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8462	Posted - 2015.09.08 12:31:59 - [141] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: It's nice to see the discussion is still going, though where it's going? Not sure. I'm still playing the game. I've tried joining a few corps. No luck there yet on one that fits my needs. Mining still appeals to me as a way of making ISK so Industry V just has one day left on the timer. Then I'll have a couple other skills i'll need to get to IV to be able to hop in the Procurer. My current fun in the game has been looting battle wrecks in low sec and null sec for sexy T2 modules worth a ton of ISK(to me as a newb anyway). I've found the threat of getting killed while I try to get to the best wrecks pretty exciting. I've had some good fun evading the dudes that try to kill me (so far so good thank you Warp Stabs) and it's pretty satisfying getting in and out of an area intact and with a cargo bay full of loots. I've been fired on like four times and was able to get away each time though one guy got me down to like 20% hull in what seemed like a single volley before i got out of there. I bought a T1 Freighter to haul all my crap around and once I got about 100 mill worth of stuff together I decided to make the trip to Jita to see what it would be like and with the hope of selling everything quickly. Again, i found the possibility of danger pretty exciting and wasn't sure if any Jita Gankers would make a go for my ship. I had read that you need to have a cargo hold worth of a least a billion ISK for them to go for ya, not sure if that's the case or not. I made it in and out of Jita without a hitch. Sold everything I brought and with a decent amount of change in the bank, thought ok, I can fly the Vexor now if I feel like it. As I was heading home from Jita in the freighter, I came across a T2 or T3 Cruiser wreck just sitting their with no one around. I moseyed on over to it at a whopping 150 m/s lol and boom: cha ching! 344 million ISK worth of modules. Awesome. I wasn't about to warp back to Jita with the yellow suspect time going so i docked a jump away and waited it out. Once the timer was clear, nervously jumped back into Jita and docked again with no problem, though as I was docking, a freighter next to me exploded. Eek! Better him than me, I thought. Came away with another 340 million or so. Easy money. I do still want to get into traditional ship combat PvP and plan on training up my T1 frigate skills I need once the mining stuff is done I've also considered doing my battle wreck looting in my Vexor so if any one does come after me, instead of running I would put up a fight as it's usually just one or two ships that come after me, but I'm not so sure if that's a profitable way to go. But could be fun! As it is now, I'm using a cheaply fitted Imicus for it and it's been working well as it has a decent cargo hold and is small and fast enough and if anyone did catch me slippin', meh. Less than a mill to replace and back at it. I know you used paragraphs but still...holy wall of text, Batman :) [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Samuel Triptee Frankenstuff 109	Posted - 2015.09.08 12:47:16 - [142] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: It's nice to see the discussion is still going, though where it's going? Not sure. I'm still playing the game. I've tried joining a few corps. No luck there yet on one that fits my needs. Mining still appeals to me as a way of making ISK so Industry V just has one day left on the timer. Then I'll have a couple other skills i'll need to get to IV to be able to hop in the Procurer. My current fun in the game has been looting battle wrecks in low sec and null sec for sexy T2 modules worth a ton of ISK(to me as a newb anyway). I've found the threat of getting killed while I try to get to the best wrecks pretty exciting. I've had some good fun evading the dudes that try to kill me (so far so good thank you Warp Stabs) and it's pretty satisfying getting in and out of an area intact and with a cargo bay full of loots. I've been fired on like four times and was able to get away each time though one guy got me down to like 20% hull in what seemed like a single volley before i got out of there. I bought a T1 Freighter to haul all my crap around and once I got about 100 mill worth of stuff together I decided to make the trip to Jita to see what it would be like and with the hope of selling everything quickly. Again, i found the possibility of danger pretty exciting and wasn't sure if any Jita Gankers would make a go for my ship. I had read that you need to have a cargo hold worth of a least a billion ISK for them to go for ya, not sure if that's the case or not. I made it in and out of Jita without a hitch. Sold everything I brought and with a decent amount of change in the bank, thought ok, I can fly the Vexor now if I feel like it. As I was heading home from Jita in the freighter, I came across a T2 or T3 Cruiser wreck just sitting their with no one around. I moseyed on over to it at a whopping 150 m/s lol and boom: cha ching! 344 million ISK worth of modules. Awesome. I wasn't about to warp back to Jita with the yellow suspect time going so i docked a jump away and waited it out. Once the timer was clear, nervously jumped back into Jita and docked again with no problem, though as I was docking, a freighter next to me exploded. Eek! Better him than me, I thought. Came away with another 340 million or so. Easy money. I do still want to get into traditional ship combat PvP and plan on training up my T1 frigate skills I need once the mining stuff is done I've also considered doing my battle wreck looting in my Vexor so if any one does come after me, instead of running I would put up a fight as it's usually just one or two ships that come after me, but I'm not so sure if that's a profitable way to go. But could be fun! As it is now, I'm using a cheaply fitted Imicus for it and it's been working well as it has a decent cargo hold and is small and fast enough and if anyone did catch me slippin', meh. Less than a mill to replace and back at it. Sounds like some fun! Think I may try it sometime... Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1227	Posted - 2015.09.08 13:31:25 - [143] - Quote Glad you're still around and having fun OP. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I bought a T1 Freighter to haul all my crap around and once I got about 100 mill worth of stuff together I decided to make the trip to Jita to see what it would be like and with the hope of selling everything quickly. Again, i found the possibility of danger pretty exciting and wasn't sure if any Jita Gankers would make a go for my ship. I had read that you need to have a cargo hold worth of a least a billion ISK for them to go for ya, not sure if that's the case or not. Just a word of caution. You've mixed up some info regarding ganking. "Freighters" in EVE are specific ship class, not just any hauling ship. They are enormous, slow, and have huge bays and lots of HP. Which is why they need to be carying a decent amount to make it worthwhile to suicide gank them (since it takes many catalysts or tornados). The thing you read about having a billion in cargo refers specifically to freighters. A T1 industrial is likely to be ganked for much less. I always use extreme caution if I'm carrying more than 100 mil in an industrial. There are a few things you can do to improve your safety whilst hauling. See: insta-docks, insta-undocks, and the microwarpdrive-cloak trick. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Johnny Riko KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2015.09.08 14:48:33 - [144] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: patience ,willingness to accept guidance , and big mother**ing balls are all you need to pull something like that off A fully T2 fit Assault Frigate probably doesn't hurt. But you're right. If you try hard enough, and long enough, you'll eventually find somebody anti-tanked enough with stupid to overcome all the advantages handed to them. Johnny Riko wrote: Eve PvP is much more than having the best ship/modules/skills. It's also having the best links/drugs. If PvP was just about having heart, determination and numbers, Brave would own half of nullsec. Eventually you're going to run out of n+1, and you're going to need to pony up some better gear if you want to win. Do you think it's a coincidence that RvB puts "Hey, downship for fights if you have to - don't be a " in their FAQ? Or that the Alliance Tournament needs rules about deadspace mods? Cara Forelli wrote:** There are a million examples of successful newbros PVPing with low SP. There's a million examples of newbros killwhoring on gatecamps, or F1-ing when the FC tells them to. There's also a million examples of newbros getting their ISK pushed in when somebody with some bigger bling to throw at the fight decides to take down a fleet twice their size. You can certainly participate in PvP with a two week old character. In the same way you could participate in the NFL. The difference is, I don't blame people for aiming a little higher than participation. Wow, you're truly ludicrous. I never said PvP was about "heart, dedication & numbers". My point was that a good pvp'er will know how to fit their ship, what type of ships it can engage, and how best to engage. Hence why Brave isn't the best Alliance in the game. Eve isn't a game where you pay more isk to have a bigger sword to swing at people, every ship/module/tactic has hard and soft counters. In my experience, the best pvpers/alliances know how to exploit these counters to give themselves the best chance of victory. I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2015.09.08 15:13:49 - [145] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: Glad you're still around and having fun OP. Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I bought a T1 Freighter to haul all my crap around and once I got about 100 mill worth of stuff together I decided to make the trip to Jita to see what it would be like and with the hope of selling everything quickly. Again, i found the possibility of danger pretty exciting and wasn't sure if any Jita Gankers would make a go for my ship. I had read that you need to have a cargo hold worth of a least a billion ISK for them to go for ya, not sure if that's the case or not. Just a word of caution. You've mixed up some info regarding ganking. "Freighters" in EVE are specific ship class, not just any hauling ship. They are enormous, slow, and have huge bays and lots of HP. Which is why they need to be carying a decent amount to make it worthwhile to suicide gank them (since it takes many catalysts or tornados). The thing you read about having a billion in cargo refers specifically to freighters. A T1 industrial is likely to be ganked for much less. I always use extreme caution if I'm carrying more than 100 mil in an industrial. There are a few things you can do to improve your safety whilst hauling. See: insta-docks, insta-undocks, and the microwarpdrive-cloak trick. Cara, thanks a lot for the info and clarification. Yes, a T1 industrial is what I meant. I'll look into the dock tricks. I must've gotten lucky not getting ganked then from the sound of it.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 15:19:25 - [146] - Quote Johnny Riko wrote: Wow, you're truly ludicrous. I've also got it on good authority I'm "bad" too. Quote: My point was that a good pvp'er will know how to fit their ship, what type of ships it can engage, and how best to engage. But a "good pvp'er" never has to decide "I can't handle this fight because I'm not skilled/fit enough"? Quote: Eve isn't a game where you pay more isk to have a bigger sword to swing at people That is precisely what EVE is. Think you're doing well in your Kestrel? Spend some ISK, upgrade to a Worm. Think your Worm is hot ***? Spend some ISK, upgrade to a Svipul. Think your Svipul is unbeatable tech? Spend some ISK, upgrade to .... You might not be able to buy a ship that can kill everything, but let's not pretend that ISK can't buy wins. ___________________________________________________________________ There are tasks that don't take millions of SP to do. Even more can be started with low SP. Caladan's wandering salvage service is proof enough of that (grats on the cruiser find btw ). But I don't get why people insist that all* things in EVE can be accomplished with some player knowledge and a little old fashioned gumption. It's not true. You're going to need SP and ISK if you want to compete. ISK is gated by in game activity. Sure, you could grind out missions for your ISK like most do. Or, like Caladan, you could try something new, get a bit lucky and make your fortune that way. SP is a different animal. It's just "How much money have I given CCP?". It doesn't teach you anything, it doesn't prepare you for what's ahead, there's no reasoning or purpose to it. That little "Ding! Skill training completed." is just a confirmation that X days/weeks/months ago, you double-clicked a skill.
Azda Ja Green Skull LLC 4339	Posted - 2015.09.08 15:40:33 - [147] - Quote The problem here is people are operating at the extremes. Yes, ISK can buy you a crazy good/borderline OP ship (looking at you Orthrus). What, I and most other PvPers are saying isn't that ISK and the SP is a non-factor; but rather that people make too big a deal about it. Yes, chances are you'll die going up a blingy ship with OP bonuses. But with know how and good old fashion gumption, you can drastically increase your chances of success, and get ridiculously awesome kills through good decision making and knowledge. Cara for example has killed a Rattlesnake in a bomber, by testing fits and tactics with yours truly and then having the balls to tackle one in game. One of Ralph's old corp mates killed a Marauder in an Ishkur at a couple months old. These things may not be the norm, but that's because most people don't put in the effort to get those same kills. You have to actually step up to the plate to do it. It's not enough to just lol-tackle anything that moves and expect to win. Research and understanding the mechanics at play are one's primary concern when learning how to PvP. One's wallet balance and SP amount, while not irrelevant, takes a backseat to those first two. THAT is the point I and others are making. If a newbie wants to get into the game and PvP. They should just go and do it, instead of bitching bout SP on the forums, because all the SP in the world is not going to help them when they're charging head on into an Artillery Tornado in a deadspace Svipul. Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting. Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 16:21:48 - [148] - Quote Azda Ja wrote: One of Ralph's old corp mates killed a Marauder in an Ishkur at a couple months old. That would be the one he linked to. Ironic, that he was using what I can only imagine was a focus trained AF toon (I can guarantee has a dozen skills to V) as an argument you don't need SP. And I agree with the idea that a dramatic skill imbalance can overcome an ISK/SP imbalance. But that works both ways, and unless you plan on spending your life enforcing the CODE you're going to have to expect that you're going to get into a fight with somebody who knows what they're doing. But extremes aren't the only issue. There's also the people who say "It's only 3 months to train" (i.e. the ~6M SP that Ralph says the AF pilot had) as if that wasn't an eternity for a character that's only 15 hours old. Forgetting where and how you start in the game is easily as big an issue. There's also the people who see character age as a right of passage, which gives them a power they don't want to give up. For as much as people argue that SP aren't important, suggesting that the system should be done away with certainly brings out the fangs. Maybe the one I find the most aggravating is portraying the newbie roles as something desirable. Those roles which, to be fair, need to be done - but nobody wants to do. So you get the newbro to Logi/EWAR/Suicide Tackle, because they don't really have any choice in the matter. It's all they've got SP for.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1227	Posted - 2015.09.08 19:48:30 - [149] - Quote Aerasia wrote: And I agree with the idea that a dramatic skill imbalance can overcome an ISK/SP imbalance. But that works both ways, and unless you plan on spending your life enforcing the CODE you're going to have to expect that you're going to get into a fight with somebody who knows what they're doing. I can (but won't because of forum rules) link you a dozen kills I've had, completely solo, against older players in more expensive or larger ships. All within my first year of playing. I earned them by thinking outside the box. For instance, I put a neut on a breacher and killed a faction fit daredevil by capping him out. That Daredevil could have killed most any Breacher fit easily but by fitting unexpectedly I turned the tables on a much older player, with much better skills, in a much more expensive ship, with much stronger natural bonuses. A while back I took on a 2008 player in a Thorax v. Thorax fight. He outmatched me in skills but I won by loading null and scram-kiting. I correctly guessed that he would underestimate me and use void, counting on his skills for higher DPS. I took advantage of my knowledge of his fit - mine was slightly faster because of the choices I made when fitting it. I exploited this to win the fight. You don't need purple or green mods to win fights. You don't need max skills. You just need a little creativity and forethought. Will that work every time? No. There's plenty of potential engagements you should not take. Can't take a fight? Find a different one that fits your engagement profile. Or find a way to change your fit or your plan to win. Aerasia wrote: But extremes aren't the only issue. There's also the people who say "It's only 3 months to train" (i.e. the ~6M SP that Ralph says the AF pilot had) as if that wasn't an eternity for a character that's only 15 hours old. Forgetting where and how you start in the game is easily as big an issue. I do kind of agree with this part. The first few weeks are a struggle. The combination of low SP, zero experience, and lack of acquaintances makes it difficult to PVP without getting discouraged by losses. However, only the first can be solved through skill-queue online. The others require you to play. Passively skilling for a year will not make you any better at PVP and you will still lose your first engagements due to inexperience. Aerasia wrote: Maybe the one I find the most aggravating is portraying the newbie roles as something desirable. Those roles which, to be fair, need to be done - but nobody wants to do. So you get the newbro to Logi/EWAR/Suicide Tackle, because they don't really have any choice in the matter. It's all they've got SP for. I actually love all three of those roles and volunteer for one of them in 90% of my fleet activities despite having the SP to do whatever I want. I find them much more interesting than DPS, especially in larger gangs. Everyone has different taste. What I find aggravating is people who discourage newbies from even trying to PVP. Yes, in the beginning it will be difficult. There's a lot to learn and there's a lot to skill. But there's also plenty of fun fights and exciting victories to be had. Just because you are at disadvantage doesn't mean you will lose, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It means you need to find another way to win. And the "SP gap" doesn't last nearly as long as people make it out to. Not being able to compete with vets is a myth. I did it many times when I was new, solo. I have friends that did it when they were new, solo. I've even had new players get the better of me since then, solo. So stop telling them it can't be done. It can be done. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 20:25:05 - [150] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: What I find aggravating is people who discourage newbies from even trying to PVP. Which I'm sure I'm guilty of, even if indirectly and certainly unintentionally. I'm a big fan of organizations like RvB, which have a goal of not just creating content but putting it within a competitive structure. I'm just not sadistic enough to encourage somebody at 2M SP to go try their hand at Solo. Or even try and convince them they're an indispensable part of their corp fleet. Quote: And the "SP gap" doesn't last nearly as long as people make it out to. That depends a bit on how you measure. Take Ralph's friend in the AF. Having all the skills in place for that at only 6M SP seems out of place for an actual newbro, so I'm assuming that's an alt. And if so, that means the training queue was probably laser focused on Frigate combat. A single toon player has to worry about replacing their ship in a way that alts don't. And there aren't a lot of ISK making opportunities in a frigate, so a new player is going to be naturally drawn to the obvious paths - Mining Barges and Mission Ravens. Those eat up millions of SP, and you need your income stream in place before you go losing AFs to Marauder gank attempts at 30M+ a pop. You're right though, the raw gap is a lot less than it feels when you're starting out. I've been there, done that. Combat readiness seems impossibly far away when you're sitting in a Meta 0 fit Frigate with some modules only having just become available. But as I've said here, and every time the topic comes up, I see no reason that gap even has to exist. I'm not a fan of arbitrary time barriers. Quote: Passively skilling for a year will not make you any better at PVP and you will still lose your first engagements due to inexperience. And this is part of why. I certainly don't expect somebody to AFK-skill for a year and come out of the gate a champ. But I also know that learning the ropes of PvP takes a lot less time than getting the SP for whatever role you want.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1405	Posted - 2015.09.08 20:26:21 - [151] - Quote Nobody said you don't need SP. You just don't need the same SP as a 10 year vet to beat him this game is about strategy, not twitch reactions in a dogfight. I guarantee a noob in a counter ship/fit to someone with 100m sp will win regardless of how many hundreds of millions they sunk into it. Plus we have examples of terrible attempts at pay2win quite often, someone buying all purple and blue and a character to boot and losing it in the most hilarious ways
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11678	Posted - 2015.09.08 20:40:05 - [152] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Nobody said you don't need SP. You just don't need the same SP as a 10 year vet to beat him this game is about strategy, not twitch reactions in a dogfight. I guarantee a noob in a counter ship/fit to someone with 100m sp will win regardless of how many hundreds of millions they sunk into it. Plus we have examples of terrible attempts at pay2win quite often, someone buying all purple and blue and a character to boot and losing it in the most hilarious ways Bingo, please refer to the link in my last post for a ridiculous example of this. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 22:30:13 - [153] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Nobody said you don't need SP. Well, Earlier in this thread wrote: Bellatrix Invicta You're combat effective from day one, Sitting Bull Lakota If you've got prop jamming trained to I you can be deadly in pvp. ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points. Donnachadh SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play. Zihao It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things. except for those people who did. But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while."
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 767	Posted - 2015.09.08 22:59:09 - [154] - Quote Aerasia wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP. I know I link this all the time but it completely disproves what you are claiming. If you don't want to watch the whole video I will summarize. It is an experienced PvP vet on a trial account alt running around in a rifter killing much older toons in much more expensive ships. He is at the oldest during filming 17 days old. The ship is meta 3 fit. So he's about 2 weeks old T1 fit in a T1 standard frigate and pwning. Sometimes taking on 2 and 3 T2 ships at once. In eve everything has it's counter. PvP in Eve is not about having more skill points or a more expensive ship or a more expensive fit. It is about knowing the ships and the match ups and knowing what you can kill and what can kill you. It's not about having a better ship or a better fit it's about having the right ship or the right fit. You can continue to keep blaming your lack of skill and knowledge on your skill points but the above linked video just flat proves you wrong. Aerasia wrote: You can certainly participate in PvP with a two week old character. In the same way you could participate in the NFL. The difference is, I don't blame people for aiming a little higher than participation. If you are waiting until you have the skill points to win before you PvP you'll never win. Being good at PvP in Eve requires experience and lots of it. If you start PvPing right away by the time that you get experienced i.e. good you'll have more than enough skill points to fly and fit what you need to win. Is it true that if you had 2 identically skilled pilots flying the same ship that the one with the more skill points and / or more expensive modules would more likely win? Yes that is likely true however that is not how PvP works in Eve. What I and other pilots have been trying to tell you is that your perspective here is completely valid in a game like WoW or Battlefield where you have highly balanced and highly structured PvP. That combat style just does not exist in Eve with the one exception being the Alliance Tournament. Aerasia wrote: But a "good pvp'er" never has to decide "I can't handle this fight because I'm not skilled/fit enough"? That doesn't happen in Eve again Johnny was talking about counters and not having to decide based on skill points. Knowing which ships you can kill and which you can't based on your ships strong and weak points. Aerasia wrote: That would be the one he linked to. Ironic, that he was using what I can only imagine was a focus trained AF toon If you are a PvP type of person and that's all that you want to do and you want to be good at it then there is no reason for you to train into anything else. Yes if you are a more causual player and want to try all the various aspects of Eve then it will take a bit longer to train everything. Eve is after all about having to make decisions and deal with the consequences. But yes if you want to be very good at anything you will need to focus on that one thing and if you spread your self about you will be less good at more things. This is just a fact of life that is true both in and out of game.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 53	Posted - 2015.09.08 23:08:45 - [155] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Very little != Zero
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 767	Posted - 2015.09.08 23:14:48 - [156] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Maybe the one I find the most aggravating is portraying the newbie roles as something desirable. Those roles which, to be fair, need to be done - but nobody wants to do. So you get the newbro to Logi/EWAR/Suicide Tackle, because they don't really have any choice in the matter. It's all they've got SP for. I can not comment on what other people find desirable or not. What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. It's also not something thrust upon them in most cases. New players often whine about not wanting to be F1 monkeys. Also that fact that they have very limited understanding about how to actually pilot a ship in combat, limits to a certain extent what they can do without feeling overwhelmed. Logi and Ewar ships have much longer range than the typical brawling ship and there for are much easier to "pilot" because you can sit further back and be less focused on what your ship is doing in relation to other's. That's not to say those roles are easier just that your focus is less on piloting your own ship and more on what is going on on grid as a whole. The pulled back viewpoint can also reduce the overwhelmed feeling new players often have. Logi and Ewar are no less important and arguably it would be better for the fleet to have your more experienced pilots flying those roles. But again if you want to keep a new pilot from feeling overwhelmed then let him fly something that he can sit back further. Also something like logi or Ewar is more clear to see your affect and feel like you are contributing. Tackle on the other hand I don't understand why new players keep calling that a newbie role. The more experienced players keep telling me that your tackle are your scouts and in most cases you want them to be the best most experienced pilots in fleet. From what I've been told it's definitely not a newbie role.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 767	Posted - 2015.09.08 23:30:11 - [157] - Quote Aerasia wrote: 'ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points.' except for those people who did. But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while." You totally pulled that quote completely out of context. I never once said that you don't need skill points or even hinted that they are totally useless. What I did say was that after the first couple weeks they don't hold you back and for the first couple weeks you are learning the game anyway. I also said that your skill points don't hold you back from doing anything or participating in anything or having fun. I also said that they are far from the most important thing and in the vast majority of cases not what determines the winner of any engagement. I said skill points were not everything. I never said that they were nothing. You however have tried to make is seem like without very high skill points you can't win at PvP which is just not true and you also tried to make it seem as if the player with higher skill points and / or more expensive modules will always win which again is provably wrong. Watch the eveiseasy video that I linked and then go watch some of the Rooks and Kings videos. You will see people using game knowledge and a superior strategy to win up against much large numbers. I challenge you to watch the 17 day old minmatar character in a meta 3 fit rifter go up against 3 T2 frigates and still get a kill and then try and tell me how skill points and all T2 is required to be effective and win.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.08 23:58:31 - [158] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles. Tackle doesn't care about your SP totals. Pointed is pointed - end of story. DPS on the other hand is very skill intensive. Easily half the DPS available to your hull is unlocked through SP. Logi and Ewar are also quick to get up to effectiveness. Those modules don't require anywhere near as much support SP, and are often a binary on/off effect regardless. I'm also completely aware of suitonia, and his hilarious video. I'm not won over on the idea of low SP PvP by the idea my combat frigate is capable of killing anti-tanked Interceptors and Stealth Bombers. He got those kills fairly, but showing me that at 17 days old I'm going to be counting on my targets to make grave errors in judgement, and even then I'll barely be able to kill ships that I'm flying the hard counter to isn't making a great case.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 54	Posted - 2015.09.09 01:44:28 - [159] - Quote William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure wrote: Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1409	Posted - 2015.09.09 11:32:40 - [160] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Nobody said you don't need SP. Well, Earlier in this thread wrote: Bellatrix Invicta You're combat effective from day one, Sitting Bull Lakota If you've got prop jamming trained to I you can be deadly in pvp. ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points. Donnachadh SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play. Zihao It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things. except for those people who did. But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while." Sorry, my understanding of the English language may not be perfect, however I still do not see anywhere in these quotes where they have specifically stated that you DO NOT NEED SP to be effective in pvp. I also believe you understand this to be the case as well, however to attempt to bolster your incredibly weak argument, you are twisting these words to make it seem as you have a point.
Azda Ja Green Skull LLC 4342	Posted - 2015.09.09 12:02:51 - [161] - Quote Aerasia wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles. No, it's one of the reasons. It's more beneficial for a new player because, as erg mentioned, you get a far wider view of the battlefield and don't have quite the same pressure to stay alive (usually) as being in the thick of it with **** flying in and around your head, micromanaging cap boosters, transversal, webs, scrams and points, local tank or calling for logi reps, not approaching bad targets, communicating actually useful and not silly info to the FC etc etc.. All of this while keeping an eye on your location in relation to the fleet, and watching D-Scan. It's far easier to spot danger from 100km away than 500m away. Again, EWAR isn't easy, and demands mastery as well, it is however a tad more accessible, but above all, more beneficial when starting out, on top of being a pivotal role in many, if not most engagements. I don't understand this obsession with needing to be in a DPS ship to feel like you're PvPing. Or even feeling like you need to be able to compete 1v1 mano a mano, Thorax vs Thorax on the undock at the crack of dawn, which, without experience anyway, you're going to lose unless your opponent is a derp. SP is not useless by any stretch of the imagination. I just can't stand people telling newbies they can't compete without it, because it is demonstrably false. SP helps, but brains help more. Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting. Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 176	Posted - 2015.09.09 13:28:05 - [162] - Quote Azda Ja wrote: I don't understand this obsession with needing to be in a DPS ship to feel like you're PvPing. Think it depends on a persons preferred style. A lot of players that come here will have played other MMOs and as such will have already established what their preference is. My preferred role is that of the rogue style, it's the one that seems more natural to me. Only problem is I've still not found where to attach the daggers to my ship.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1478	Posted - 2015.09.09 13:55:45 - [163] - Quote maulus is such a lazy ship, i love it even when i can fly everything thats relevant, nothing better than kicking back and damping all the things EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Azda Ja Green Skull LLC 4342	Posted - 2015.09.09 15:02:47 - [164] - Quote Avvy wrote: Only problem is I've still not found where to attach the daggers to my ship. To your tongue, if you're using daggers, things have gone incredibly wrong for your ship, and you only have a sharp tongue left to defend yourself with. More seriously though, you speak of preferences, preferred roles: how is a newbie to EVE going to determine what their preferred role is based on other MMOs? Because saying 'I like rogue things' (just using this as an example, nothing personal) isn't really going to make any kind of play style or training path more apparent. Thematically I guess, a Stealth Bomber would count as a 'rogue' but when it comes to the style of play, it is completely different, alien even. In any MMO I've played that had a Rogue, stealth was completely meaningless and was just another flavor of 'nuke the mob while the tank tanks and the healer heals'. At most, it's 'get 15% extra dps if the target's back is turned'. In EVE, stealth is a BIG deal, takes shape in many different forms, and goes beyond mere ship choice. The parallels one can draw from other MMOs, thematically, and mechanically, are very superficial, and, quite frankly, not helpful. Anyway not to ramble, but my point is that it's a mistake to take one's play style preferences from other games into EVE. I love PvP in EVE; I absolutely cannot stand PvP in other online games. As a rule, I think people shouldn't be prisoner to their past preferences. Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting. Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1415	Posted - 2015.09.09 21:45:23 - [165] - Quote in other games there's 2 things u can do: dps or heal Everything else is just a sideshow, whereas in EVE the debuffing and also buffing of your fleet can easily be the difference between win and loss. Combine this with the hundreds of variations of "class" (aka hulls and fits) it presents an almost unlimited pvp spectrum. Something other games will never achieve. I remember playing arena in WoW and after a certain point it just felt like you were doing the same thing over an over, even if it was different people you met.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2015.09.09 22:36:13 - [166] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: in other games there's 2 things u can do: dps or heal Everything else is just a sideshow, whereas in EVE the debuffing and also buffing of your fleet can easily be the difference between win and loss. Combine this with the hundreds of variations of "class" (aka hulls and fits) it presents an almost unlimited pvp spectrum. Something other games will never achieve. I remember playing arena in WoW and after a certain point it just felt like you were doing the same thing over an over, even if it was different people you met. EVE player: "Eve is unique and special". New EVE player that has played many other MMOs and PvP'd in them: "Erm, actually not so much". Sorry to keep doing this but it's kinda driving me nuts to keep reading about how unique and special EVE is when the information given as an example is completely wrong. Buffing and de-buffing are important aspects of PvP in other games too and could absolutely mean the difference between a win or loss as well. Two that come to mind and I have personal experience with are Star Trek online and SWTOR. Both have it in their PvP and it's super important to winning. Not just a sideshow as you put it. Also, crowd control. It's a thing.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 771	Posted - 2015.09.09 23:00:43 - [167] - Quote Aerasia wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles. Tackle doesn't care about your SP totals. Pointed is pointed - end of story. DPS on the other hand is very skill intensive. Easily half the DPS available to your hull is unlocked through SP. Logi and Ewar are also quick to get up to effectiveness. Those modules don't require anywhere near as much support SP, and are often a binary on/off effect regardless. I'm also completely aware of suitonia, and his hilarious video. I'm not won over on the idea of low SP PvP by the idea my combat frigate is capable of killing anti-tanked Interceptors and Stealth Bombers. He got those kills fairly, but showing me that at 17 days old I'm going to be counting on my targets to make grave errors in judgement, and even then I'll barely be able to kill ships that I'm flying the hard counter to isn't making a great case. I think you need to reread your own post here because you are proving my point while claiming the opposite. You are correct that tackled is tackled. Skill points do affect things like your speed and HP and stuff but you are correct tackled is tackled and your skill points or lack there of do not change that fact. However knowing how to tackle and who to tackle and when to tackle and being able to pilot your ship in such a manner that you maintain the point while the fleet shows up that's all skill. Not skill POINTS but player skill. Many people confuse actual applied dps with paper dps. Your EFT numbers don't mean squat if you can't apply the dps and a good pilot will know how to pilot his ship in such a manner that he is making the most of his damage profile while making the least of his opponents. If you think paper dps is everything get in a blaster boat and go up against someone in an autocannon frig with falloff bonus. You can even force him to gimp his dps in some way or the other it doesn't matter because if he can control range your are going to die regardless of the fact that EFT says you can do twice the dps. As far as Ewar goes knowing who to use Ewar on and when to use it and how to draw people away from the pack to help divide and conquer is all player skill. So three times in your first paragraph you help me prove that player skill is far more important than skill points. As far as the suitonia videos it shows how you are missing the point. In Eve you are always counting on your opponent to make grave judgement errors. Most Eve players won't engage in a fight that they don't think that they can win. So you are either counting on them to make some situational awarness judgement error and deliver the surprise but sects or you are trying to fool them into thinking they can win when you have something up your sleeve. But no I'm not saying that at 17 days old you will be counting on your opponent to make grave errors. What I am saying is that regardless of how old or how many skill points the characters have most fights will come down to which pilot makes less grave errors. Suitonia did not win those fights because he had better "gear" or more skill points. He won those fights because he was a better pilot plain and simple. You just are not going to do anywhere even close to as good as him even if you borrowed someone else's 10 year old character. He is just more skilled than either you or I and clearly on a 2 week old alt I'm not talking skill points but player skill.
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1417	Posted - 2015.09.09 23:28:28 - [168] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: in other games there's 2 things u can do: dps or heal Everything else is just a sideshow, whereas in EVE the debuffing and also buffing of your fleet can easily be the difference between win and loss. Combine this with the hundreds of variations of "class" (aka hulls and fits) it presents an almost unlimited pvp spectrum. Something other games will never achieve. I remember playing arena in WoW and after a certain point it just felt like you were doing the same thing over an over, even if it was different people you met. EVE player: "Eve is unique and special". New EVE player that has played many other MMOs and PvP'd in them: "Erm, actually not so much". Sorry to keep doing this but it's kinda driving me nuts to keep reading about how unique and special EVE is when the information given as an example is completely wrong. Buffing and de-buffing are important aspects of PvP in other games too and could absolutely mean the difference between a win or loss as well. Two that come to mind and I have personal experience with are Star Trek online and SWTOR. Both have it in their PvP and it's super important to winning. Not just a sideshow as you put it. Also, crowd control. It's a thing. Where in another mmo is there a way to completely cripple a target using debuffs so they literally cannot do anything? I've played swtor, these debuffs you're takling about are literally either to enable other damaging/defensive abilities or they last such a short time they are considered crowd control. crowd control in this game is almost what ewar is, however it's very temporary and not as strategic as ewar is.
MTB Fritz Pollard We will bock you 0	Posted - 2015.09.14 14:37:19 - [169] - Quote the worst thing IMO is the carrot being other players showing and demonstrating you things you cannot do yet (be it flying ships, using certain modules, solo higher level missions or succeed at activities you suck in at). At least for me, thats hard to overcome when you want to be able to do what others do in front of you. I am 2 months old in EVE now and the first month was HELL, I was hoping it gets better once I subscribe but of course after you get rid of the "this skill cannot be trained by trial accounts" stuff the game becomes deeper and more complex. I also am at the point where some of the much needed skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff. With time comes acceptance tho. Talking to other people helps. You get an impression of the term "time" and how much you ganne need. Realizing there are no shortcuts for anybody and everybody had to go through what you go through now makes it easier to handle. I pretty much ran into a wall at lv 3 missions...been doing them for a (felt) eternity now without being able to "progress" but you know.....doing the same stuff with ME changing (because I get skill ups) also makes me realize how actually CRITICAL skills are...not necessarily the ship and equipment. My ship and gear didnt change.....my skills did and of course my strategies and the difference is massive. So EVE provides you with the time you need to adjust yourself to everything in the game. I find it to be an elegant system :)
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 69	Posted - 2015.09.14 15:01:15 - [170] - Quote MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff. What the heck are you training? I've got a bit less than two months under my belt and the longest skill in my queue is about 3.5 days with no implants.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2015.09.14 19:11:28 - [171] - Quote Zihao wrote: MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff. What the heck are you training? I've got a bit less than two months under my belt and the longest skill in my queue is about 3.5 days with no implants. Well I've got Capacitor mgmt V in my queue and it's a 14 day timer. Ironically, I spent about 7 days total training into my Procurer, bought all the stuff needed for the fit and ventured out into the nearest asteroid field. Pulled a load of Scordite in what felt like an eternity, sold it for 1.8 mill ISK. Thought to myself, "what a super boring way to make such a tiny amount of isk". Docked in station, sold the Procurer and all that **** and slapped myself for wasting all that time that could've been better spent training into T2 drones and T2 small hybrid turrets. I'm no longer considering mining as an option for ISK. I can make more looting wrecks and scooping abandoned drones in a fraction of the time and also have people trying to shoot me. I've met a couple guys from EVE Uni corp lately, did a T1 Dessie dual with one last night and got my ass handed to me, though he sent me ISK to cover my losses which was nice. I still haven't made peace with the SP timers in this game. I hate the system TBH. I can't stand not being able to do the things I want to do when I want to do them. What I've wanted to lately is solo PVP, but without T2 fit it's pretty much a losing proposition and too much time wasted trying to find someone for a fair fight. The guy I fought last night agreed to only use T1 fit, then came in with T2 drones and almost killed me in five seconds, but was nice enough to disengage and come back and start over with T1s. I plan on applying to EVE Uni corp, but again, I will be sitting around for another week doing nothing waiting on my interview to be done before I can fly support even. EVE Online: The Waiting Game. Wait to train skills, wait to get into guild, wait wait wait.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.09.14 21:25:20 - [172] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: what a super boring way to make such a tiny amount of isk Ouch. At least as far as EVE's stupid SP system goes 7 days is a pretty light punishment for that sort of mis-training. Long, long ago I did the same thing - only I spent months training up to get L4 missions for my income. At least the core SP transfers well. Best I can suggest is what you're doing with the arranged duels. Hunt around to find something you enjoy, and then find something you're willing to tolerate to earn your ISk to do the fun stuff. With luck, you'll have the SP to do the latter quickly enough to get back to the former and stay subbed.
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 70	Posted - 2015.09.14 23:24:00 - [173] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Sounds like this game isn't for you.
Azda Ja Green Skull LLC 4353	Posted - 2015.09.15 00:32:21 - [174] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Well I've got Capacitor mgmt V in my queue and it's a 14 day timer. I've been playing over a year and still have both the cap skills at 4 and do just fine. Would they help at 5? Damn right they would. Am I going ot get them? Yes, and soon. Do you need them so young? **** no, train something shorter and more immediately useful young one. Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting. Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 785	Posted - 2015.09.15 00:49:53 - [175] - Quote MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: I am 2 months old in EVE now and the first month was HELL, I was hoping it gets better once I subscribe but of course after you get rid of the "this skill cannot be trained by trial accounts" stuff the game becomes deeper and more complex. I also am at the point where some of the much needed skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff. I'm not sure which 10-12 day skills are keeping you from trying something new but I suspect it's more of a perception thing. I'm sure there is a way to do what you want to try and do now. I'd recommend hooking up with some vets to help you figure that out. We were all where you are now at one point. Most of us understand how lost you feel early on and are more than happy to help. MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: With time comes acceptance tho. Talking to other people helps. You get an impression of the term "time" and how much you ganne need. Realizing there are no shortcuts for anybody and everybody had to go through what you go through now makes it easier to handle. Not only are there no shortcuts but this game has a habit of punishing players that even try to find one. MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: I pretty much ran into a wall at lv 3 missions...been doing them for a (felt) eternity now without being able to "progress" but you know.....doing the same stuff with ME changing (because I get skill ups) also makes me realize how actually CRITICAL skills are...not necessarily the ship and equipment. My ship and gear didnt change.....my skills did and of course my strategies and the difference is massive. I at one point thought that this was the case also. Then after having played the game a couple years went back and started a fresh alt and found myself able to use tactics that I thought had opened up to me with skill points at much lower skill points than I had been able to use them initially. My point is that your progression of strategies probably has more to do with you getting better at the game than it does your skill points or at least more than you are giving yourself credit for. As far as level 3's getting boring or stale they are supposed to. This game is a PvP game at it's core and the "content" is intended to be primarily other players. To me that seems like it's kind of inherent in the definition of an MMO but it amazes me as some of the gameplay in other games that is considered MMO gameplay. To me if you are running level 3 missions solo every time you play then you should probably be looking for a solo game like GTA or something like that. If you want to play an MMO get out and do something with other players. Or do something against other players. Either way get out there and interact. MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: So EVE provides you with the time you need to adjust yourself to everything in the game. I find it to be an elegant system :) I could not agree more.
Johnny Riko KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2015.09.15 13:55:44 - [176] - Quote Problem is I think people want to be able to run before they can even stand up, never mind walk. No, you're not going to be able to use T3 Strategic cruisers in your first month of playing. T3's are as close to "end-game" eve seems to get. Then you also have to realise that larger ships aren't necessarily more useful. As a new player, getting your first Racial frigate skill to 5 takes roughly 9-10 days. Getting a frigate sized weapon system to level 5 takes 5 days. Getting relevant support skills to 3/4 doesn't take that long at all. Within your first month of eve you can be flying the T1 combat frigates with a high enough proficiency to solo PVP. Give it another month and you can improve all of your core skills. In my opinion you shouldn't bother trying to use anything larger than a Frigate for PVP in your first 6 months of playing for a few reasons: 1. You probably don't have the isk to afford losing well fit cruiser sized vessels yet. 2. You almost definitely don't have the skills required to fly even a T1 cruiser fit with T2 weapons/tank. 3. Just because Cruisers are bigger than frigates doesn't necessarily make them better. I've been playing for less than 6 months and I only ever use cruisers such as the VNI for ratting income. For all my PVP I use interceptors, stealth bombers, or T1 frigates. Hopefully Assault frigates will get a much needed buff (or D3 nerf) to make them valid again. 4. Frigates are a much more forgiving vessel. They are agile, fast and small. If you make a mistake on them often you can make up for it without being severely punished. When you are punished, it won't cost you much and you will actually learn something. 5. You can quickly train the skills needed for T2 frigate tank/weapons, meaning that while you're having fun in your T2 fit atron, you can be training some of the slower core skills to 5, which will give you the foundations for moving into other ships. I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion 2490	Posted - 2015.09.15 15:02:30 - [177] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. I feel you brah. I often reflect on the fact it has taken me some three+ years to get to the point where I can fly most of the stuff I want to, and if I had to do it all over again I would just buy an 80m SP toon off the market instead. If one multiplies two accounts subscription cost (because you really need a second account/alt) times three years, then outright purchase of a high SP toon(s) fromt he get-go is not as outrageous as it might seem. tldr; The game mechanics themselves were enough of a 'levelling up' process, that actual SP levelling was just a ballache for me too. F Would you like to know more?
Johnny Riko KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 21	Posted - 2015.09.15 15:36:18 - [178] - Quote Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. I feel you brah. I often reflect on the fact it has taken me some three+ years to get to the point where I can fly most of the stuff I want to, and if I had to do it all over again I would just buy an 80m SP toon off the market instead. If one multiplies two accounts subscription cost (because you really need a second account/alt) times three years, then outright purchase of a high SP toon(s) from the get-go is not as outrageous as it might seem. tldr; The game mechanics themselves were enough of a 'levelling up' process, that actual SP levelling was just a ballache for me too. One just has to reflect on training JDC 5 to minimally offset jump-AIDS to understand where I am coming from. F So you think it would be easier for new players if they had access to Titans from day one?.. I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2015.09.15 15:42:59 - [179] - Quote Johnny Riko wrote: So you think it would be easier for new players if they had access to Titans from day one? Yes.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2015.09.15 18:05:32 - [180] - Quote Azda Ja wrote: Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Well I've got Capacitor mgmt V in my queue and it's a 14 day timer. I've been playing over a year and still have both the cap skills at 4 and do just fine. Would they help at 5? Damn right they would. Am I going ot get them? Yes, and soon. Do you need them so young? **** no, train something shorter and more immediately useful young one. Ok, thanks. I will take it out of the queue and not worry about getting cap and cpu to V just yet and add in Thermodynamics in it's place. I think I need to go back to the Rhea Newbie Skill Training guide which is what I started with. I've been a little all over the place. I've got light drones V and small hybrid turrets V in line now. I've had to change my perception on what I can do and want to do. I've got the Vexor in the hangar and look forward to trying it out later when I'm properly skilled for it. In the meantime, my short term goal is to get fully skilled for combat frigates specifically the Tristan and Incursus with the aim of finding some 1v1 and small gang roams. I've relocated my base of ops to 0.6 space right on the border of low sec. If I ever find a good low-sec corp that doesn't require a retardedly long and difficult application process I'd like to get into low-sec full time. If any friendly, casual, low sec PvP corps would have me while requiring nothing more of me than voice comms and a full API, please shoot me a message here or in game.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1245	Posted - 2015.09.15 18:18:54 - [181] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: If I ever find a good low-sec corp that doesn't require a retardedly long and difficult application process I'd like to get into low-sec full time. If any friendly, casual, low sec PvP corps would have me while requiring nothing more of me than voice comms and a full API, please shoot me a message here or in game. EVE Uni is the epitome of a retardedly long and difficult application process. Very few corps will be like that. Most low-sec pirates like us don't enjoy recruitment and do exactly as you say - API check and a TS interview and then you're in or out. The biggest concern for you will be whether or not they have support for new players. There are a ton of newbro friendly corps out there, but also plenty which are not. For instance, my corp isn't anti-newbro per say, but I can tell you from experience that it's not the ideal place for a new player to learn the ropes. You really need a group that will let you participate but also one that has individuals with the drive and the patience to help you out. Your own enthusiasm will go a long way in this regard. I will go way out of my way to help out an eager newbro....but whiney/needy people are going to get the cold shoulder. Have a look through the recruitment forum and see if anything jumps out at you. If you can't find anything there, don't fret. Many of the best corps don't push recruitment hard but find their members through word-of-mouth or run-ins in-game. If you tool around in low-sec enough you will meet some interesting people, and if you show enough interest it's likely one of your killers will take you under their wing. Everyone likes a graceful loser. IMO it should be a prereq for recruitment. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Revenant Kane The Revenant Crew 0	Posted - 2015.09.15 21:34:22 - [182] - Quote Created the account over a year ago but only became active about 4 months ago and then now for 3 weeks. So far in total 2 months of skills training. In those 2 months I have killed guys in ships a lot bigger than mine solo. (How to link that here?) I am declaring wars and finding it exceedingly easy. I have already created a second account just for scouting. The waiting game you say? only if you choose it to be. I just finished training for my first Battlecruiser. Cannot wait to see what kind of havoc I can cause in this.
Jim Coal Republic University Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.09.27 20:09:57 - [183] - Quote Errbody know who yo main is dawg this thread need to stop bein full of pretend newboys. SMH
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 12087	Posted - 2015.09.27 21:16:02 - [184] - Quote Jim Coal wrote: Errbody know who yo main is dawg this thread need to stop bein full of pretend newboys. SMH I would Keep this shtick in general discussion if I were you and wanted to keep your posting privileges. Ncq&a isn't the place for this. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=

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