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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 26 post(s)

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:16:00 - [1] Greetings all. There has been a lot of confusion regarding the new gang system lately and i'd like to tray take the oppertunity to clarify any questions or "myths" regarding the new gang / fleet system. Firstly, i`ll have a look at static gangs. Static gangs do not receive gang bonuses at all, not from highly skilled "bosses" or from fleet command ships / gang assist modules. If you wish to take advantage of these, you must convert the gang to a fleet. Secondly, there have been some misconceptions about how gang/fleet bonuses and fleet command / gang assist modules work. Commanders only give their bonuses to sqaud members below them. This means that Sqaudron Commanders only give gang bonuses to squadrons they are the commander of (So the commander of Squad1 only gives his bonuses to squad1, not sqaud2 or squad3, etc) This also means that Wing Commanders only give their bonuses from skills / fleet command ships / gang assist modules to the squadron members in their wing but please note, this does not extend to the squadron commanders! And also, Fleet Commanders give their bonuses to all squad memebrs of their fleet, but not to any other commander, not to any Wing Commanders or Squadron Commanders. only the squadrom members. Finally, Commanders, Fleet Commander, Wing Commanders and Squadron Commanders give their bonuses to themselves. Note that all of the above only applies as long as the fleet is active and is also dependent on the commanders having the appropriate skills. I now open the floor to questions you would like answering regarding the new gang system and i will do my best to get answers for them. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Max Hammer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Max Hammer on 14/12/2006 20:18:10 ur ["b"] tags are messed up. no, there not.... ~Jiekon -----------------
wierchas noobhunter Caldari Kemono.	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:19:00 - [3] ♥ i am WIERCHAS i am like UBER and stuff
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:20:00 - [4] What is the long term plan for fleets of this size. Are we going to be able to jump together through gates via a command "Fleet Jump" like we have no for warping ? Can we get special que-ing so that if we manage to get through a que, we can go through as a squad / wing / fleet instead of one at a time ?
Jean'Luc Well'Ard Caldari OLE Mining Corp Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:21:00 - [5] Originally by: Montaire What is the long term plan for fleets of this size. Are we going to be able to jump together through gates via a command "Fleet Jump" like we have no for warping ? Can we get special que-ing so that if we manage to get through a que, we can go through as a squad / wing / fleet instead of one at a time ? Thats gonna do a lot for improving server stability and easing lag im sure Famous Last Words: Well, we've made it this far. The odds of that happening have to be a million to one.

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Montaire What is the long term plan for fleets of this size. Are we going to be able to jump together through gates via a command "Fleet Jump" like we have no for warping ? Can we get special que-ing so that if we manage to get through a que, we can go through as a squad / wing / fleet instead of one at a time ? I am not sure if there will ever be a "fleet jump" option but the issues with Queues are being adressed. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Jiekon I am not sure if there will ever be a "fleet jump" option but the issues with Queues are being adressed. Thank you. Tons of Q's but I will try and keep it on topic. There is a great deal of lag when orginizing a fleet. Any chance that will go away in the future. Im talking like 3-5 second lag when sorting wings / squads. Especially in the creating of these things. Finally, can the new gang mechanics be tied in with logistics ships, so that no lock is needed for logistics ships and their modules. Is the new gang system a platform for future improvments in fleet combat ? Or is it more of a standalone system.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:26:00 - [8] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 14/12/2006 20:26:39 Question: Are there any plans to change it so that ALL players under a commander, including lesser commanders recieve gang bonuses? Question: Are there any plans for automatic promotions of people to squad commander? In a fleet, for a squadron member to recieve bonuses, the fleet commander, wing commander and squadron commander must all be in space, in the same system and not in a pod for bonuses to be sent around. This means that for a fleet that is in motion or in combat the nonbonus/bonus states change a lot. This is dangerous for shield tanks and speed tanks as 10% drops off shield hitpoints whenever one of these cycles occurs, and orbiting ships will slow down to less than 1/3 their speed and enter a new random orbit whenever a speed change occurs. Question: Why is squad command rank 8 and fleet rank 12? Isn't this kinda excessive? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:29:00 - [9] I don't do big fleets I just gang with a couple of friends for some casual missioning fun. Are you saying gang bonuses from skills and ships do not apply to such gangs? Should I even bother to ask why? Also, is there a way to remove the useless (to me) gang icons and just have the list of gang members in the gang section of the overview? Since the user interface does not have any customisation capabilities, overview height is too precious. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Montaire Originally by: Jiekon I am not sure if there will ever be a "fleet jump" option but the issues with Queues are being adressed. Thank you. Tons of Q's but I will try and keep it on topic. There is a great deal of lag when orginizing a fleet. Any chance that will go away in the future. Im talking like 3-5 second lag when sorting wings / squads. Especially in the creating of these things. Finally, can the new gang mechanics be tied in with logistics ships, so that no lock is needed for logistics ships and their modules. Is the new gang system a platform for future improvments in fleet combat ? Or is it more of a standalone system. Eliminating the lag is something we are always working on, Sharkbait has been doing a huge amount of work on SISI involving fleets, lag and memory leaks. You should hop onto sisi sometime and help him out with that. We've had some pretty good results so far. I don't think it will be possible to allow logistic ships to "heal" other members of their gang without locking. This seems to be a restriction of the current game mechanics but it may be an idea to post this suggestion in the "ideas and suggestions" section of the forums. Again, if you can suggest other ways to make the gang system better or have more functionality, posting it in ideas and suggestions ensures it will be seen by the right people and maybe some of those ideas will be used in implementing new features. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:36:00 - [11] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/12/2006 20:37:21 I still think gangs should work the other way around. That is, people should be able join a password protected gang if they are in the corp/alliance or has the right standings (and know the password). Its very awkward today with all the invites. A much better approach is to let people join, and then the leaders move people around to the positions where they are most useful. My 2 cents anyway. Edit: And I realize the thread isnt about that, but im taking the chance to get my 2 cents in... :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:36:00 - [12] Can we please have the option to have one assigned "gang leader" for small gangs that can transfer gang bonuses to the whole small gang instead of having to bother with converting to fleet to get the same effect except that the boss doesn't get the bonuses and you have the mess with extra channels. Can it be changed so that as soon as your regular gang reaches 11 people, it will auto-convert to fleet and put the gang boss as fleet boss and the other 10 people in a squadron? Can we please get better documentation on fleets because it's a complete mess and even after an hour of trying we STILL haven't figured out who, when and how you can properly have gang bonuses active. Some images would really help. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 14/12/2006 20:26:39 Question: Are there any plans to change it so that ALL players under a commander, including lesser commanders recieve gang bonuses? Question: Are there any plans for automatic promotions of people to squad commander? In a fleet, for a squadron member to recieve bonuses, the fleet commander, wing commander and squadron commander must all be in space, in the same system and not in a pod for bonuses to be sent around. This means that for a fleet that is in motion or in combat the nonbonus/bonus states change a lot. This is dangerous for shield tanks and speed tanks as 10% drops off shield hitpoints whenever one of these cycles occurs, and orbiting ships will slow down to less than 1/3 their speed and enter a new random orbit whenever a speed change occurs. Question: Why is squad command rank 8 and fleet rank 12? Isn't this kinda excessive? I don't think there are any plans at present to allow commanders to give their bonuses to other commanders but i will ask TomB about that tomorrow. Agian, i don't think there are any plans to automatically move people into the commander positions if the previous commander was killed. This adds to the challenge of trying to keep your commanders alive. Again, TomB will be poked about this tomorrow and i`ll give an answer if i can. I don't have an answer for the last question, but idon't think it's excessive...Then again, i did train gallente dread and carrier to level 5 ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:40:00 - [14] Also question: Can we please get rid of the squadron channel? Its utterly redundant, and I already have too many chat channels open. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:42:00 - [15] Originally by: Shemar I don't do big fleets I just gang with a couple of friends for some casual missioning fun. Are you saying gang bonuses from skills and ships do not apply to such gangs? Should I even bother to ask why? Also, is there a way to remove the useless (to me) gang icons and just have the list of gang members in the gang section of the overview? Since the user interface does not have any customisation capabilities, overview height is too precious. That's correct, gnag bonuses were changed to only affect fleets and only take effect from commanders as the old system was causing too much load on the server. The new system is much easier on the server. If you wish to benefit from the bonuses you can train the leadership skill, convert to a fleet and work in squadrons. You don't need to go to wings or fleet to get the bonuses it can work off 1 guy as squadron commander There no way to get rid of the gang icons im afraid. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████


Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Hllaxiu Also question: Can we please get rid of the squadron channel? Its utterly redundant, and I already have too many chat channels open. No, it's not utterly redundant. it's where squad memebrs can communicate quickly to each other rather than having to annoy the entire fleet with their chatter. The main gang channel can be used for commanders communication only. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████


Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Can we please have the option to have one assigned "gang leader" for small gangs that can transfer gang bonuses to the whole small gang instead of having to bother with converting to fleet to get the same effect except that the boss doesn't get the bonuses and you have the mess with extra channels. Can it be changed so that as soon as your regular gang reaches 11 people, it will auto-convert to fleet and put the gang boss as fleet boss and the other 10 people in a squadron? Can we please get better documentation on fleets because it's a complete mess and even after an hour of trying we STILL haven't figured out who, when and how you can properly have gang bonuses active. Some images would really help. I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them, but this is worthy of being posted in the ideas and sugegstions forum as it kinda makes sense. We're not gonna dumb down eve, if you want to make a fleet, you have to do it yourself manually. I think my first post pretty much covered who gives bonuses to who and who doesn't, if theres something about it you don't understand, ask here. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:47:00 - [18] Can we ever change the name of the squads ? It would be more intuitive. Instead of Squad 1, wing 1. I'd have Deklein Wing with Recon, Tackle and Battleship squads. Originally by: Jiekon Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Can we please have the option to have one assigned "gang leader" for small gangs that can transfer gang bonuses to the whole small gang instead of having to bother with converting to fleet to get the same effect except that the boss doesn't get the bonuses and you have the mess with extra channels. Can it be changed so that as soon as your regular gang reaches 11 people, it will auto-convert to fleet and put the gang boss as fleet boss and the other 10 people in a squadron? Can we please get better documentation on fleets because it's a complete mess and even after an hour of trying we STILL haven't figured out who, when and how you can properly have gang bonuses active. Some images would really help. I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them, but this is worthy of being posted in the ideas and sugegstions forum as it kinda makes sense. We're not gonna dumb down eve, if you want to make a fleet, you have to do it yourself manually. I think my first post pretty much covered who gives bonuses to who and who doesn't, if theres something about it you don't understand, ask here.
Righteous Fury Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:48:00 - [19] Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 20:48:21 This might come across as trolling, so I apologize beforehand. But.. Why are gangs and leadership skills being pushed towards larger fleet combat when statistically, smaller gangs are in the majority? Also, why is large-fleet combat being pushed when the servers have proven incapable of handling it (for the most part)? I agree with some of the changes, but not sharing bonuses between fleet commanders and stuff seems like a slap in the face to those of us who like to keep gangs under 5-7 people. It also seems silly to encourage huge fleets when all thats going to happen is jump queues, lag, and node crashes.

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Montaire Can we ever change the name of the squads ? It would be more intuitive. Instead of Squad 1, wing 1. I'd have Deklein Wing with Recon, Tackle and Battleship squads. that's quite a good idea.... ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████


Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Righteous Fury Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 20:48:21 This might come across as trolling, so I apologize beforehand. But.. Why are gangs and leadership skills being pushed towards larger fleet combat when statistically, smaller gangs are in the majority? Also, why is large-fleet combat being pushed when the servers have proven incapable of handling it (for the most part)? I agree with some of the changes, but not sharing bonuses between fleet commanders and stuff seems like a slap in the face to those of us who like to keep gangs under 5-7 people. It also seems silly to encourage huge fleets when all thats going to happen is jump queues, lag, and node crashes. The new fleet system was partly introduced to make large fleets easier to manage and to reduce server load for calculating who gives bonuses to whome. In the old gang system it used to check every single member and compare them to every other member to see who had the highest skills and who would give the bonuses. Now imaging that happening in a 100 man gang travelling through space. After every jump, each person is compared against 99 others...ouch! The servers are capable of handling large fleet battles, ok, it's not as smooth as we'd like, but we are working on making that better as you can see with the amount of fleet stress tests sharkbait is doing on SISI over the past few months. You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself) ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Miranda Duvall Gallente OPM Holdings	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:54:00 - [22] Where does the "Gang Boss" fit into the picture? He/She can promote/move fleetmembers, but: does the boss give bonussus? if so, to whom? if not, can you make it so the boss acts as fleet commander bonuswise? can the boss demote commanders? Isn't it great being a skill collector? Top 20 My Skills
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Jiekon You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself) The real problem comes when the 11th person comes into gang. You need to spend a few minutes saying in channel asking "ok, who has leadership 5... who has wing command." before that person can actually get into the gang. And then you have a squadron with 1 person in it, which defeats the purpose of the squadron, so then you start balancing it out between the two. God help you if someone attacks you while doing this... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Miranda Duvall Where does the "Gang Boss" fit into the picture? He/She can promote/move fleetmembers, but: does the boss give bonussus? if so, to whom? if not, can you make it so the boss acts as fleet commander bonuswise? can the boss demote commanders? The gang boss is the person that created the fleet. This can be a normal squad member, or a commander. The only benefits of being a boss is to move people around in the fleet and organise a structure to it. The boss does not give any gang bonuses unless he is a commander You can make the boss act as a fleet commander, bonus wise, if you make him a fleet commander The boss can promote and demote memebrs of any "rank" from squad member to fleet commander. Yes, it's great being a skill collector. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:57:00 - [25] Is there going to be a formation option? Sphere, blob, line abreast etc? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Jiekon You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself) The real problem comes when the 11th person comes into gang. You need to spend a few minutes saying in channel asking "ok, who has leadership 5... who has wing command." before that person can actually get into the gang. And then you have a squadron with 1 person in it, which defeats the purpose of the squadron, so then you start balancing it out between the two. God help you if someone attacks you while doing this... To be fair, that should be sorted out before you even think of undocking. Being ill prepared can only lead to disaster. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████


Jiekon	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Roshan longshot Is there going to be a formation option? Sphere, blob, line abreast etc? Eventually, yes, maybe, it's something we've always wanted to integrate into EvE ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:02:00 - [28] ok, so let me understand this: Whereas before the best bonus in a gang would apply, now only the squadron commander gives bonuses to the others? What about ship bonuses. Is it enough for a ship to be in the squadron for all to get the bonus or only the squadron commander's ship gives bonuses? And how does the leadership skill figure in (beyond it's own bonus). Does it affect how many people can be in the squadron to get the bonus, or is level 5 needed for just 3-4 gang members before any bonus applies? ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Righteous Fury Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:03:00 - [29] Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 21:04:01 Originally by: Jiekon You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself) Thats the point I'm driving at though. Limiting squads and wings to certain amounts of people is extremely difficult when you're on the fly - especially because not many people can be bothered training leadership skills when they have 3 or 5 charisma points. I understand the process-time reducing formula for distributing bonuses, and it works well for actual fleets - my problem is that it doesn't work well for anyone with small gangs. Bar my preferences for gangs smaller than 10, I would objectively say that a real "fleet" starts with at minimum, 20 people. It never appeared to me that gangs of smaller than 20 ever caused unbearable lag issues, is it possible to implement a solution for those of us without a massive corp backing to run gangs and still have a commander to share bonuses? In short, I guess I'm saying for gangs of less than 20 people is it possible to allow the gang boss to share his gang skills without having to create a fleet? Quote: To be fair, that should be sorted out before you even think of undocking. Being ill prepared can only lead to disaster. And also to be fair, gang sizes change on the fly based on people's real-life commitments, pilots travelling from Jita to meet a gang in Rens, etc. Asking people to dock when their gang status is in flux is pretty ridiculous.
Hehulk Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Jiekon The servers are capable of handling large fleet battles, ok, it's not as smooth as we'd like, but we are working on making that better as you can see with the amount of fleet stress tests sharkbait is doing on SISI over the past few months. Sorry if this is trolling, but if that were the case, why do node crashes occure? Cudos for trying to fix the problem though, I appriciate it. ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it

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