Originally by: Montaire

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What is the long term plan for fleets of this size.

Are we going to be able to jump together through gates via a command "Fleet Jump" like we have no for warping ?

Can we get special que-ing so that if we manage to get through a que, we can go through as a squad / wing / fleet instead of one at a time ?

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Originally by: Montaire

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What is the long term plan for fleets of this size.

Are we going to be able to jump together through gates via a command "Fleet Jump" like we have no for warping ?

Can we get special que-ing so that if we manage to get through a que, we can go through as a squad / wing / fleet instead of one at a time ?

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Originally by: Jiekon

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I am not sure if there will ever be a "fleet jump" option but the issues with Queues are being adressed.

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Originally by: Montaire

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Originally by: Jiekon

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I am not sure if there will ever be a "fleet jump" option but the issues with Queues are being adressed.

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Thank you. Tons of Q's but I will try and keep it on topic.

There is a great deal of lag when orginizing a fleet. Any chance that will go away in the future. Im talking like 3-5 second lag when sorting wings / squads. Especially in the creating of these things.

Finally, can the new gang mechanics be tied in with logistics ships, so that no lock is needed for logistics ships and their modules.

Is the new gang system a platform for future improvments in fleet combat ? Or is it more of a standalone system.

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Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"

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You can't PVP with 4 mids.

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Edited by: Hllaxiu on 14/12/2006 20:26:39
Question: Are there any plans to change it so that ALL players under a commander, including lesser commanders recieve gang bonuses?

Question: Are there any plans for automatic promotions of people to squad commander? In a fleet, for a squadron member to recieve bonuses, the fleet commander, wing commander and squadron commander must all be in space, in the same system and not in a pod for bonuses to be sent around. This means that for a fleet that is in motion or in combat the nonbonus/bonus states change a lot. This is dangerous for shield tanks and speed tanks as 10% drops off shield hitpoints whenever one of these cycles occurs, and orbiting ships will slow down to less than 1/3 their speed and enter a new random orbit whenever a speed change occurs.

Question: Why is squad command rank 8 and fleet rank 12? Isn't this kinda excessive?

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Originally by: Shemar

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I don't do big fleets I just gang with a couple of friends for some casual missioning fun. Are you saying gang bonuses from skills and ships do not apply to such gangs? Should I even bother to ask why?

Also, is there a way to remove the useless (to me) gang icons and just have the list of gang members in the gang section of the overview? Since the user interface does not have any customisation capabilities, overview height is too precious.

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Also question: Can we please get rid of the squadron channel? Its utterly redundant, and I already have too many chat channels open.

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Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux

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Can we please have the option to have one assigned "gang leader" for small gangs that can transfer gang bonuses to the whole small gang instead of having to bother with converting to fleet to get the same effect except that the boss doesn't get the bonuses and you have the mess with extra channels.

Can it be changed so that as soon as your regular gang reaches 11 people, it will auto-convert to fleet and put the gang boss as fleet boss and the other 10 people in a squadron?

Can we please get better documentation on fleets because it's a complete mess and even after an hour of trying we STILL haven't figured out who, when and how you can properly have gang bonuses active. Some images would really help.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux

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Can we please have the option to have one assigned "gang leader" for small gangs that can transfer gang bonuses to the whole small gang instead of having to bother with converting to fleet to get the same effect except that the boss doesn't get the bonuses and you have the mess with extra channels.

Can it be changed so that as soon as your regular gang reaches 11 people, it will auto-convert to fleet and put the gang boss as fleet boss and the other 10 people in a squadron?

Can we please get better documentation on fleets because it's a complete mess and even after an hour of trying we STILL haven't figured out who, when and how you can properly have gang bonuses active. Some images would really help.

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I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them, but this is worthy of being posted in the ideas and sugegstions forum as it kinda makes sense.

We're not gonna dumb down eve, if you want to make a fleet, you have to do it yourself manually.

I think my first post pretty much covered who gives bonuses to who and who doesn't, if theres something about it you don't understand, ask here.

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Originally by: Montaire

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Can we ever change the name of the squads ? It would be more intuitive. Instead of Squad 1, wing 1. I'd have Deklein Wing with Recon, Tackle and Battleship squads.

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 20:48:21
This might come across as trolling, so I apologize beforehand. But..

Why are gangs and leadership skills being pushed towards larger fleet combat when statistically, smaller gangs are in the majority?

Also, why is large-fleet combat being pushed when the servers have proven incapable of handling it (for the most part)?

I agree with some of the changes, but not sharing bonuses between fleet commanders and stuff seems like a slap in the face to those of us who like to keep gangs under 5-7 people. It also seems silly to encourage huge fleets when all thats going to happen is jump queues, lag, and node crashes.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself)

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Originally by: Miranda Duvall

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Where does the "Gang Boss" fit into the picture?
He/She can promote/move fleetmembers, but:

does the boss give bonussus?
if so, to whom?
if not, can you make it so the boss acts as fleet commander bonuswise?
can the boss demote commanders?

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Originally by: Jiekon

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You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself)

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The real problem comes when the 11th person comes into gang. You need to spend a few minutes saying in channel asking "ok, who has leadership 5... who has wing command." before that person can actually get into the gang. And then you have a squadron with 1 person in it, which defeats the purpose of the squadron, so then you start balancing it out between the two. God help you if someone attacks you while doing this...

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Originally by: Roshan longshot

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Is there going to be a formation option? Sphere, blob, line abreast etc?

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Originally by: Jiekon

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You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself)

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Quote:

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To be fair, that should be sorted out before you even think of undocking. Being ill prepared can only lead to disaster.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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The servers are capable of handling large fleet battles, ok, it's not as smooth as we'd like, but we are working on making that better as you can see with the amount of fleet stress tests sharkbait is doing on SISI over the past few months.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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To be fair, that should be sorted out before you even think of undocking. Being ill prepared can only lead to disaster.

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Originally by: Shemar

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ok, so let me understand this:

Whereas before the best bonus in a gang would apply, now only the squadron commander gives bonuses to the others?

What about ship bonuses. Is it enough for a ship to be in the squadron for all to get the bonus or only the squadron commander's ship gives bonuses?

And how does the leadership skill figure in (beyond it's own bonus). Does it affect how many people can be in the squadron to get the bonus, or is level 5 needed for just 3-4 gang members before any bonus applies?

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Originally by: Hehulk

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Originally by: Jiekon

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The servers are capable of handling large fleet battles, ok, it's not as smooth as we'd like, but we are working on making that better as you can see with the amount of fleet stress tests sharkbait is doing on SISI over the past few months.

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Sorry if this is trolling, but if that were the case, why do node crashes occure?

Cudos for trying to fix the problem though, I appriciate it.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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This also means that Wing Commanders only give their bonuses from skills / fleet command ships / gang assist modules to the
squadron members in their wing but please note, this does not extend to the squadron commanders!

. . .

And also, Fleet Commanders give their bonuses to all squad memebrs of their fleet, but not to any other commander, not to any
Wing Commanders or Squadron Commanders. only the squadron members.

. . .

I now open the floor to questions you would like answering regarding the new gang system and i will do my best to get answers for them.

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 21:04:01

In short, I guess I'm saying for gangs of less than 20 people is it possible to allow the gang boss to share his gang skills without having to create a fleet?

And also to be fair, gang sizes change on the fly based on people's real-life commitments, pilots travelling from Jita to meet a gang in Rens, etc. Asking people to dock when their gang status is in flux is pretty ridiculous.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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I`ll speak to TomB about the possibility of introducing a "gang commander" for small gangs and see what he says about it. But don't hold your breath.

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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Originally by: Jiekon

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I`ll speak to TomB about the possibility of introducing a "gang commander" for small gangs and see what he says about it. But don't hold your breath.

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Whats the reasoning behind not implementing it then?

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Originally by: Der Ewige

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Atm you cant switch 2 positions in a fleet direct. If you want to replace a commander with somone else you have to first move the commander away to make place for a new commander. This is espacialy a problem if you want to switch a squadmember with the squadcommander and the squad is full. So you have to move the old commander to another squad or even wing.
Will ther ever be a "switch position with" command or something like this?

I noticed that when the "Boss" quites to what ever reason (CTD, Log off...) there is no "claim Boss" option. Although there is a workaround. If there is no boss in the gang anybody can convert the gang to a fleet or the other way around and will becom Boss then.
Any plan to fix this?

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Originally by: Jiekon

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To be fair, that should be sorted out before you even think of undocking. Being ill prepared can only lead to disaster.

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Quote:

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The new fleet system was partly introduced to make large fleets easier to manage and to reduce server load for calculating who gives bonuses to whome. In the old gang system it used to check every single member and compare them to every other member to see who had the highest skills and who would give the bonuses. Now imaging that happening in a 100 man gang travelling through space. After every jump, each person is compared against 99 others...ouch!

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Originally by: Jiekon

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Originally by: Roshan longshot

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Is there going to be a formation option? Sphere, blob, line abreast etc?

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Eventually, yes, maybe, it's something we've always wanted to integrate into EvE

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Originally by: Jiekon

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Originally by: Montaire

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Can we ever change the name of the squads ? It would be more intuitive. Instead of Squad 1, wing 1. I'd have Deklein Wing with Recon, Tackle and Battleship squads.

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that's quite a good idea....

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Originally by: Driven

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How fantastic for all of us that the gang system has been worked out.

Grand.

Brilliant.

Now how about making the in game auction system usable?

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Originally by: "Jiekon"

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I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them, but this is worthy of being posted in the ideas and sugegstions forum as it kinda makes sense.

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Quote:

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We're not gonna dumb down eve, if you want to make a fleet, you have to do it yourself manually.

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Quote:

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I think my first post pretty much covered who gives bonuses to who and who doesn't, if theres something about it you don't understand, ask here.

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Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"

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You can't PVP with 4 mids.

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Originally by: suzy homemaker

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First of all thanks for the hard work with this system.

1) Can we get a collapsible option on the gang buttons similar to the ones on the squad, wing and fleet lines?

2)Why is tagging limited to the Fleet commander only? Is it possible for the highest rated commander in the system have that option or at least to have the highest rated commander in the fleet to have it if the highest is squad or wing.

Thanks

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Originally by: Blind Man

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what takes priority? say a squad commander has better skills than the fleet commander, will the members of that squad still get bonus's from their squad commander since he has better skills?

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Originally by: Thalera Saldana

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Titans - not that I think its something I'll ever have to worry about, but curious anyway:

Does the Titan's x/lvl gang bonus (i.e. cap recharge for Avatar) work for a fleet or a gang or does the titan driver have to be a fleet commander for this to work?

Thal

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Originally by: Decairn

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If there is a FC->WC->SC chain, with multiple SCs and one of the SCs doesn't have the skill level, do the other squads get the bonuses from FC and WC still?

The overview is crowded, can the fleet info be pulled to a seperate window please?

Can we have the Boss always shown above the FC? In a big gang, Boss can get lost and is difficult to find resulting in slow reformation of fleet.

There is a lot of administration involved in setting up and maintaining fleets of any decent size. To that end:

Can we have a wing text channel so that wing command can communicate only with their wing? Using voice now with multiple commanders is painful.

Can we have restrictions on ship type settable on squad or wing level so that people can automatically get assigned to the correct groups? Common splits now are BS wing 1, frigates wing 2, other wing 3 etc. Invite to fleet should put people in first available slot of the correct fitler type.

Can we have a (manually initiated) auto-selection of commander promotion within a squad? As people come and go its a PITA to keep saying 'ok who has got leadership V'?

Can we stream line the right clicks a bit so wing commander doesnt have to go wing 1->squadron 1->blah. Remove the wing 1 menu level, allow user to get straight to the commands.

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Originally by: Ghana Straa

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Awesome info . . . I do like the system now and it can only get better ! I do have a side note question . . . I noticed a "scout" option or something like that when I right clicked on the gang one evening . . . something about a scout ? Thanx

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Originally by: Kuolematon

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So bonuses to big fleet battles? How about small pvp gan(g/k)s?
Are we safted because we will never get any bonuses? I was about to start training for warfare modules when I read that your nerffing gangs. I'm glad that I trained only 1mil SP in Leadership

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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The real problem comes when the 11th person comes into gang. You need to spend a few minutes saying in channel asking "ok, who has leadership 5... who has wing command." before that person can actually get into the gang. And then you have a squadron with 1 person in it, which defeats the purpose of the squadron, so then you start balancing it out between the two. God help you if someone attacks you while doing this...

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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And also to be fair, gang sizes change on the fly based on people's real-life commitments, pilots travelling from Jita to meet a gang in Rens, etc. Asking people to dock when their gang status is in flux is pretty ridiculous.

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Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux

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If lag was the whole problem you'd just have made it so the gang leader could assign up to four people as bonus-givers (ie, one for each leadership skilltree). That'd have gotten rid of the thousands of relative checks and wouldn't actually deny smallscale combat the gang bonuses.

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Quote:

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In certain circumstances while playing in windowed mode, gang broadcast and drone command interfaces would overlap. This has been resolved.

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Originally by: Marquise

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Originally by: Jiekon

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To be fair, that should be sorted out before you even think of undocking. Being ill prepared can only lead to disaster.

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ok, we can create gangs in station, but how do we convert them to fleets without undocking and using the overview fleet menu?

also, how do we move people around within fleets while we're in station?

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Originally by: Jiekon

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I`m not sure why only the fleet commander can tag something. I`ll do some testing on SISI regarding this and pass it on to the relevant person. I`m guessing you mean <right click > Tag > number / letter> so it shows on the overview?

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Quote:

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I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them...

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Originally by: Dotar Sojat

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Jiekon

Quote:

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I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them...

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That little tidbit of information would have probably been nice to know before many thousands of us spent huge blocks of time skilling along these lines.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: Dotar Sojat

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Jiekon

Quote:

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I don't think small gangs will ever have the bonuses applied to them...

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That little tidbit of information would have probably been nice to know before many thousands of us spent huge blocks of time skilling along these lines.

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I think you misunderstand him.

If you have a gang of 4, on converting to a fleet, as long as 1 guy has leadership 2, his bonuses will work for the rest of the gang. If you get a 5th guy who has leadership 5 and wingcommand 1, you can make him wingcommander, so he and the guy with leadership 2 give bonuses to the gang of 5.

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Originally by: Hardin

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Quick question

We were setting up a fleet a couple of weeks ago

We had two people with Wing Commander III trained up - giving them the ability to manage 3 (and give bonuses) to 3 squads of 10 people in each.

However we had seven squads (the last one consisting of just a couple of players)

As soon as this 4th Squad was assigned to one of the wing commanders all the bonuses started going screwy.

It seemed that the fourth squad and two of the others were getting the Wing Commander's bonuses but one of the others had lost them. Is there anyway to manage how this happens so you can decide which wings get the bonuses?

And finally why dont the squad commanders get the bonuses supplied by the Wing commanders / Fleet commanders - seems like an oversight to me.

We have found that often the best way to ensure a squad gets all the bonuses is to not have a squad lead and demote everyone to an ordinary member who then get the wing/fleet commanders bonuses.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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I think only commanders in those ships give bonuses, i`m not 100% sure on this as i haven't tested it yet. But gang modules from an EOS are only given if a commander is flying it

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Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

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Question : does fleet/wing/squad get the bonus for themselves ?

Example : I'm in a minnie Titan, fleet leader, do I get the -37,5% of my signature or not ?

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Originally by: Pang Grohl

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Are the broadcast messages meant to work with deadspace/mission sites?
At the moment I can't direct other gang members to a deadspace/mission site with the broadcasts. The system seems to be unable to find the location. The other fleet members see the broadcast, but the warp to option lists "none" as the destination. I have bug-reported this, but I figured since there's some dedicated attention to the Fleet system I'd raise the issue here.

Other than this flaw the only difficulty with the system has been the difficulty in figuring out how the leadership skill bonuses are applied.

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Originally by: DukeJoost1

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Missioning with my second account.
Main creates gang, convert gang to fleet,
move main to squad commander (since no fleet commandskill and i want those bonusses)
warp squad command to mission area gives pop-up window :
"you cannot do that since you need to be the gang leader"

but he IS gang creator, boss and squad commander,
now why cant main warp squad of two !?!?!?

fly safe.... but separate

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Originally by: oil

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pilots which trained leadership to max to help their corp/alliance are now obsolete if those pilots have now wish or ability to actually lead a fleet. many millions of wasted skillpoints on the server

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Originally by: oil

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gangbonus-guy was a support role. now its something entirely different

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Originally by: oil

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-fleatleaders have usuall no second accounts with a leadership sp char. they fly combat ships or covert ops.
freshmen gangleaders will have a hard time to emerge because there always are others in the gang with better skills.

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Originally by: oil

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-all will probably agree that we need more gangleeders. why force them to train leadershipskills? gangleaders burn out easy so why make it difficult for others to fill in for a time to give the gangleaders a rest? complete crap i see no more rooky gangleeaders emerging.

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Originally by: oil

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- i start to doubt, that the devs ever participated in a REAL battle. the situations there are sometimes so chaotic that selecting a replacement for the fallen fleet/squad/wing- comander will be low on the list.

{whine EVE's too hard whine}

fill the replacement automatcall into the slot in case of shiploss or logoff/crash.

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Originally by: Shabesa

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One of bigger Kali blunders tbh. It's not like there were gangs having 40+ command ships so "checking" load on server can't be issue there. And if server was checking every member after each session change, that's bad session change design anyway.

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Originally by: Shabesa

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Not dumbing Eve down. Yeah, right. Look, a Damnation. Primary is ...

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Originally by: Shabesa

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Appreciate the effort to explain this mess but to put it bluntly, outsource coding. I'm pretty sure you could find decent company through your China partner that will do Eve 2 properly in a year.

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 21:13:19

Originally by: Jiekon

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I`ll speak to TomB about the possibility of introducing a "gang commander" for small gangs and see what he says about it. But don't hold your breath.

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Whats the reasoning behind not implementing it then? Or rather, the inference from your "dont hold my breath" comment that it will hardly be considered?

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Originally by: Traxio Nacho

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Quote:

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In certain circumstances while playing in windowed mode, gang broadcast and drone command interfaces would overlap. This has been resolved.

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Jiekon can you confirm this bug is being looked at please as it clearly has NOT been resolved?

As it is if you get this bug its quite difficult if not impossible to see gang commands or to act on them.

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Originally by: Jiekon

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Eventually, yes, maybe, it's something we've always wanted to integrate into EvE

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Originally by: Jiekon

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Originally by: DukeJoost1

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Missioning with my second account.
Main creates gang, convert gang to fleet,
move main to squad commander (since no fleet commandskill and i want those bonusses)
warp squad command to mission area gives pop-up window :
"you cannot do that since you need to be the gang leader"

but he IS gang creator, boss and squad commander,
now why cant main warp squad of two !?!?!?

fly safe.... but separate

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That's weird, squad commanders should be able to "Warp squad to" I`ll jump on SISI later and check it out.

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Quote:

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Basic maths my overconfident friend. In the old system, 100 man gang, every gang member has to check their skills against every other member - thus: 100*100 checks per interval = 10 000 checks. The new system, exactly 3 checks. The Squad leader checks against the Wing Commander and the Fleet Commander.

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Originally by: Sun Sliver

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I think someone must have misplaced a decimal on the time multipliers for the wing command and fleet command skills...8x and 12x??? Something more in line would be 1xLeadership(as is), 4x Wing Command, 8x Fleet Command.
You are aware that means in order to fully take advantage of a 250 member fleet (something that forms daily in eve) an FC will have to commit training time just about equivalent for noob to get to lvl 5 dreadnaught?!
Seriously did someone make a mistake on the time multipliers? Or is the requirement a purposeful step set up as to restrict players from causing lag at the expense of using the game feature: gang bonuses?

I am not asking to be rude, I really want to know why if it isnt a mistake

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Originally by: Abandon AllHope

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Yes, for the love of God please reduce the required training time! It's quite insane to have to train a level 8 skill (Wing Command) to level 5, only then to have to train a level 12 skill (Fleet Command).

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Originally by: Zyta Eke

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Originally by: Abandon AllHope

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Yes, for the love of God please reduce the required training time! It's quite insane to have to train a level 8 skill (Wing Command) to level 5, only then to have to train a level 12 skill (Fleet Command).

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How could they do that when people are even now training them? How would you give them back their extra skill points? :)

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Originally by: Sumayyah

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Originally by: Zyta Eke

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Originally by: Abandon AllHope

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Yes, for the love of God please reduce the required training time! It's quite insane to have to train a level 8 skill (Wing Command) to level 5, only then to have to train a level 12 skill (Fleet Command).

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How could they do that when people are even now training them? How would you give them back their extra skill points? :)

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True so what they will do is lower the requirements for Fleet commander

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Originally by: Zyta Eke

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How could they do that when people are even now training them? How would you give them back their extra skill points? :)

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Originally by: Jiekon

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Greetings all.

This also means that Wing Commanders only give their bonuses from skills / fleet command ships / gang assist modules to the
squadron members in their wing but please note, this does not extend to the squadron commanders!

And also, Fleet Commanders give their bonuses to all squad memebrs of their fleet, but not to any other commander, not to any
Wing Commanders or Squadron Commanders. only the squadrom members.

Finally, Commanders, Fleet Commander, Wing Commanders and Squadron Commanders give their bonuses to themselves.

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Originally by: SilentTJ

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...

its not always the person with the best bonuses who should be commander.

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Originally by: mindycs

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....

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Originally by: Jack Thurner[/quote

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Lets say that you've got the title "grunt" in your gang/fleet.. Does it means that you cannot lead that very fleet by using Teamspeak/Ventrilo/VOIP/whatever?

Or are ppl trying to lead big fleets by using the chat channels???
Same goes for support ships.. They don't have to "lead" just cause theyre in that dmn section.
Its just a friggin title, get over it (same goes for many posts above)

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Originally by: Jack Thurner

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Originally by: mindycs

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....

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Its just a friggin title, get over it (same goes for many posts above)

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Originally by: Lady Zirconia

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You must be one of those people who think they can do everything better than everyone else even when you dont fully understand the problem and despite evidence to the contrary.

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Originally by: Lady Zirconia

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Before the new gang system and after the new gang system, if you wanted to eliminate gang bonuses of the hostile gang you would target....The Damnation! The only difference is that now you are not really sure which Damnation is actually in a command position or not, if any. So your point if moot.

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Originally by: Lady Zirconia

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Can I have your stuff?

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Originally by: Erim Solfara

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Can I make a request that all gangs under 5 or 10 people are allowed to work as they used to?

And if you're worried fleets will become dozens of gangs of 10, who's gonna sacrifice all the new communications channels etc in a 100 man blob which will almost certainly have enough people with leadership skills for the whole fleet.

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Originally by: Erim Solfara

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Can I make a request that all gangs under 5 or 10 people are allowed to work as they used to?

The corp I run has 6 members, total. We do mining, complexes, ratting, the occasional bit of pirate-hunting. If more than one of us have trained a leadership skill for the sake of the rest of the corp, we can't now use those skills in unison. I've got skirmish warfare, my friend has mining foreman, and a couple have a couple of others, there's no way we can get even a 3 man mining op set up so that everyone recieves the bonuses we've trained for everyone's benefit. Bonuses should still work in small gangs, the point made about the old system being server intensive doesn't apply to gangs of 5-10.

And if you're worried fleets will become dozens of gangs of 10, who's gonna sacrifice all the new communications channels etc in a 100 man blob which will almost certainly have enough people with leadership skills for the whole fleet.

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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Edited by: Righteous Fury on 14/12/2006 21:04:01

Originally by: Jiekon

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You can still make a fleet with 5-7 people, you just need 1 guy to be squadron commander and he gives his bonuses to himself and his squad as long as he has leadership 5 he can give bonuses to 10 people (including himself)

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I understand the process-time reducing formula for distributing bonuses, and it works well for actual fleets - my problem is that it doesn't work well for anyone with small gangs. Bar my preferences for gangs smaller than 10, I would objectively say that a real "fleet" starts with at minimum, 20 people.

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