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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12064
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Posted - 2015.09.26 19:43:32 -
[211] - Quote
A newbro Catsnake rolling around in his 350k New sp!
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2015.09.26 20:13:49 -
[212] - Quote
Thank you sir for keeping this important message visible atop the first page. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26389
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:15:45 -
[213] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:A Year?? You should've trained all Supers or Titans.........just in case CCP actually makes them useful. Like I said, I ran out of interesting skills to train.
Teckos Pech wrote:For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent. It was ok because, rather than set a precedent, it followed the dictum of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it afterGÇ¥. I.e. nothing was gained, and nothing was lost (actually, something was lost: you could fit less ability in a clone, but that's so minor that no-one particularly cared).
This as opposed to randomly handing out 350k SP just because someone wanted it, especially since the characters in question didn't lose anything and weren't victims of poor timing. Arbitrary handouts would indeed set a bad precedent.
Johnny Riko wrote:Arguing with him is like bashing your head against a wall repeatedly.
The fact that his argument revolves around him being a older player and 350k being nothing to him shows how detached he actually is from reality. Actually, both of those show what an illiterate badposter you are. Your strawman has nothing to do with my argument, and the reason you feel like you're bashing your head against a wall is because not having a coherent argument gets you nowhere GÇö said headbashing parallels the futility of that (complete lack of) effort quite neatly.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Sylveria Relden
94
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:25:16 -
[214] - Quote
*shrugs* the amount of skillpoints given to the newer players really doesn't mean much for older players- but I'd say that the simplest way to even it out would be just give everyone the same amount across the board when it's implemented, then only to new players afterward.
Personally the amount wouldn't really mean much, but it would resolve a lot of griping, I suppose.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:38:52 -
[215] - Quote
Arbitrary is a good word. It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification, all of which were met with proportional sp refunds if not new skills in excess of legacy sp count. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2538
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:48:21 -
[216] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Arbitrary is a good word. It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification, all of which were met with proportional sp refunds if not new skills in excess of legacy sp count. Except previous skill modifications only awarded free SP when a skill was REMOVED. Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
The part where you are being confused is CCP's policy of 'if you could fly/use it before you can fly/use it now. So any time CCP changed the skill requirements for an item, ala the Battlecruiser skill change to racial skills, they made sure people could still fly the same Battlecruisers after the change as before. But those people did not gain any NEW abilities. Bolded to make sure you see the difference between 'More SP' that simply let the person do what they could before, and 'More SP' that gives a person a new ability they couldn't do before the change. |
Sylveria Relden
95
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:50:55 -
[217] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Arbitrary is a good word. It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification, all of which were met with proportional sp refunds if not new skills in excess of legacy sp count. Except previous skill modifications only awarded free SP when a skill was REMOVED. Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
Agreed, however, if they applied it across the board equally to everyone- how would it be unfair to anyone moving forward?
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
159
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:51:42 -
[218] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
Can you cite an example? |
Sylveria Relden
95
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:53:39 -
[219] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
Can you cite an example?
Actually, the base skills for the original implant system are a good example of this.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2538
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Posted - 2015.09.26 22:10:58 -
[220] - Quote
Zihao wrote: Can you cite an example?
Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26389
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:25:21 -
[221] - Quote
Zihao wrote:It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification That would indeed be arbitrary, but as luck would have it, it is trivially easy to distinguish the Vanguard changes from the historical cases when they've handed out SP after a skill change.
The most prominent feature that distinguishes Vanguard from those historical cases is that no skills are being changed in Vanguard.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12067
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:31:51 -
[222] - Quote
Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26390
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:43:55 -
[223] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is. Some read Malcanis' Law as something that must be obeyed rather than as an observation on a pattern, it seems.
Oh, and alsoGǪ
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Can you cite an example? Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. Probably the best example: Ethnic Relations GåÆ Diplomatic Relations.
An old skill was replaced by a new one, providing a vastly different bonus to an an entirely unrelated mechanic. No SP.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Sylveria Relden
95
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:45:38 -
[224] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is.
Agreed, the amount is pointless to established players, however I don't think they're going to stop complaining until it's resolved somehow.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
14
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:41:18 -
[225] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Corvois wrote:There has to be a line, otherwise this becomes insane. My understanding is that several million sp has been disbursed to the community already due to previous skill changes. So this would fall behind that line, wherever you want to draw it.
Care to cite an example where this was done without something that had been trained being removed or which is not done in line with ensuring people maintain an ability they used to have before a change?
Also, if in future starting skill points are dropped back for some reason, would you also agree that your skill points be reduced as well?
Though personally myself and my alts would all love the free SP, you know, just to help out the new players, and not because of any form of self interest.
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
15
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:48:15 -
[226] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is. Some read Malcanis' Law as something that must be obeyed rather than as an observation on a pattern, it seems. Oh, and alsoGǪ Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Can you cite an example? Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. Probably the best example: Ethnic Relations GåÆ Diplomatic Relations. An old skill was replaced by a new one, providing a vastly different bonus to an an entirely unrelated mechanic. No SP.
And the requirements to get into an Orca. All of those PVP players training into high level mining skills (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010). Slightly different, but another example illustrating CCP's consistent policy regarding SP. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:57:42 -
[227] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:nobody tell him about the 2013 battlecruiser racial skill change. I had BCV and Dessie V before both changes. Oh man, best level V's I ever trained.
Yep. But since most people that had more SP than me also had those skills trained also got the same benefit, relatively speaking it did nothing in terms of closing a gap.
Here is a very subtle lesson from economics: it is the relative relationship that matters. Absolute relationships can be important, but in the end they determine very, very little.
I'd argue the same is true for SP as well. Early on 350,000 vs. 50,000 is a huge difference due to diminishing returns. Later on it does not matter.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:59:29 -
[228] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent. It was ok because, rather than set a precedent, it followed the dictum of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it afterGÇ¥. I.e. nothing was gained, and nothing was lost (actually, something was lost: you could fit less ability in a clone, but that's so minor that no-one particularly cared). This as opposed to randomly handing out 350k SP just because someone wanted it, especially since the characters in question didn't lose anything and weren't victims of poor timing. Arbitrary handouts would indeed set a bad precedent.
So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
622
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:05:53 -
[229] - Quote
Not sure what's more depressing, the amount of greediness surrounding these 350,000 SP or the fact that not too long ago players actually demanded SP in return for the several hours the server was down that night CCP Dev's nearly pulled an all-nighter to bring the server back up in stable fashion. Actually, the worst of it may be that I'm not really surprised.
The extra SP is meant for fresh new players to get a small head start on their first few moments in Eve, not be a freebie for anyone because, "What about us?" No offense towards the OP, hell even 5 months is new, but CCP is trying to give players just starting their first 5 days with, for them at least, a nice little pick-me-up. For the rest of us, don't worry; 350k is merely pennies compared to what you already have in the first place, and most of us have already unintentionally (and often negligently) wasted far more on irrelevant or nowadays obsolete skill choices ourselves.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:07:15 -
[230] - Quote
Sylveria Relden wrote:*shrugs* the amount of skillpoints given to the newer players really doesn't mean much for older players- but I'd say that the simplest way to even it out would be just give everyone the same amount across the board when it's implemented, then only to new players afterward.
Personally the amount wouldn't really mean much, but it would resolve a lot of griping, I suppose.
After a year of continuous training with attributes roughly equal one should have around 16 million SP. 350,000 is about 2.2% of 16 million. I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. If you want to make it 1% make it 2 years and 3 months. Anyone complaining at that point probably does need to HTFU. Given the current date that means anyone born before June 2012...which includes Tippia.
Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26391
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:44:09 -
[231] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility. Too bad it only happened in your head.
No, it was free. You're just confused because you fail to separate the concept of SP and the concept of ability.
Quote:I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. An even better cut-off is 2 weeks, since that means it is really hard be in a spot where you'd lose anything in the NPE switch-over. A year is so hugely outside the realm of the NPE that it becomes outright ridiculous to suggest that they are in any way affected by this change. After all, that's what we're actually talking about here: we're switching from an old NPE layout to a new one, which means some new characters may accidentally be caught below the intended baseline for no reason other than bad timing. The hand-out to Gëñ14-day old characters smoothes out this transition and pretty much completely eliminates any chance of that happening.
Extending it to a year makes no sense because anyone who's below the new baseline a full year after the character birth are actually better off nuking that character and rolling a new one.
Quote:Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on. The funny thing is that older players seem to be the least butthurt by it. This is not very surprising since the NPE doesn't really affect them in any way.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:52:03 -
[232] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility. Too bad it only happened in your head. No, it was free. You're just confused because you fail to separate the concept of SP and the concept of ability. Quote:I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. An even better cut-off is 2 weeks, since that means it is really hard be in a spot where you'd lose anything in the NPE switch-over. A year is so hugely outside the realm of the NPE that it becomes outright ridiculous to suggest that they are in any way affected by this change. After all, that's what we're actually talking about here: we're switching from an old NPE layout to a new one, which means some new characters may accidentally be caught below the intended baseline for no reason other than bad timing. The hand-out to Gëñ14-day old characters smoothes out this transition and pretty much completely eliminates any chance of that happening. Extending it to a year makes no sense because anyone who's below the new baseline a full year after the character birth are actually better off nuking that character and rolling a new one. Quote:Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on. The funny thing is that older players seem to be the least butthurt by it. This is not very surprising since the NPE doesn't really affect them in any way.
The older players are less butthurt. You have been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, now you reverse course and pretend it has been your position all along.
Whatever.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:56:05 -
[233] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Quote:You have been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, now you reverse course and pretend it has been your position all along. No. I've been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, and now I still am because he's still not affected by this change. WellGǪ I hope he's not affected by this change, because that would mean he has spent the last 5 months with an empty skill queue. And anyway, if that's the case, he's better off biomassing and recreating the character from scratch.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
161
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:59:45 -
[234] - Quote
I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:32 -
[235] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
So it's more akin to the skills being the same they've always been because, well, they haven't changed in any way.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12071
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:50 -
[236] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. Oh stop being so petty, you are coming off like a petulant child getting jealous and throwing a wobbeler at someone else's birthday. stop being so petty ffs.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3407
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:52 -
[237] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund.
I'd be fine with this, or even make the refund a declining function of time. My view is that at this point, I don't need much of an SP boost. But for a player less than a year old but outside the window of getting the SP boost it would be a bigger deal. Either way works for me.
At his point I'd recommend CCP take the path that pisses off the least number of players.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Sylveria Relden
96
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:08:56 -
[238] - Quote
I think it's great they're offering this to new players- I still remember fumbling around trying to figure out what to train and in what order, and then having to wait until it finished before I could grab the next skillbook to learn even the most basic stuff.
This will give them a good head start. Great job, CCP!
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:11:17 -
[239] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:At his point I'd recommend CCP take the path that pisses off the least number of players. Iow: just release the patch as planend.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
161
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:11:52 -
[240] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. Oh stop being so petty, you are coming off like a petulant child getting jealous and throwing a wobbeler at someone else's birthday. stop being so petty ffs.
To be perfectly honest McGriffin, I couldn't care less about the skillpoints. I just like the debate and I think I have the better argument. It's certainly better that your lazy ad hominem. |
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