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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2015.09.24 16:20:30 -
[1] - Quote
I'm a fairly new player to EVE, playing roughly 5 months now. With the new skill point changes, new players will be given for free skills that took roughly 1-2 weeks to train. Only players made in the 2 weeks before Vanguards release will be given free skill point compensation. Why is this? 1-2 weeks is roughly 5-10% of my total playing time. That is 1-2 weeks of subscription that I paid for to train those skills, which are now given to new players for free. That's 1-2 weeks of subscription/training time that I could have spent on something else. A lot for a new player. What possible reason is there to not give everyone with an existing account the SP compensation? I know how pathetic it sounds, but for someone with 7m SP, 350k is still a relatively large amount.
I understand this change is to help the new players, but perhaps CCP should remember to treat it's existing players well too.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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T' Elk
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
740
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 16:45:57 -
[2] - Quote
Because you had more than enough time to make up that miniscule amount of SP in more than 2 weeks.
~Badposter since FOOOOREEEEEVAAAAAR~
I come back after 2 years to THIS?
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Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
593
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 16:51:50 -
[3] - Quote
nobody tell him about the 2013 battlecruiser racial skill change.
forums. -áserious business.
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T' Elk
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
740
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 16:56:06 -
[4] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:nobody tell him about the 2013 battlecruiser racial skill change. Shhh
~Badposter since FOOOOREEEEEVAAAAAR~
I come back after 2 years to THIS?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11990
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 16:59:59 -
[5] - Quote
Command ships... Stfu with your two weeks.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
790
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 17:16:53 -
[6] - Quote
Don't really care that new players will get 400k SP versus 50k SP, but I am curious as to the why? |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:49:43 -
[7] - Quote
T' Elk wrote:Because you had more than enough time to make up that miniscule amount of SP in more than 2 weeks.
How do you "make up" skill points? If I had started with 400k instead of 50k, then I would now be 2 weeks further into my current skill plan. How is that difficult to understand?
As for the battle cruiser comments...just because CCP has made bad decisions in the past doesn't mean that they should continue to do so.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
596
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:01:51 -
[8] - Quote
i was just saying that comparitively speaking you don't know how boned you got over that. 400K is nowt m8.
forums. -áserious business.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11992
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:06:45 -
[9] - Quote
Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it?
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26341
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:07:28 -
[10] - Quote
As an '07 player, I've been given somewhere in the region of 7M SP for free GÇö if a new player gets 350k more from the start (that are put into sensible skills), then booo hoooo.
GǪI'll suppose I'll take those free SP as compensation for not having skilled Tippia for a year because I ran out of interesting skills to train.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Gen Mo'Kai
Phayder Corporation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:10:44 -
[11] - Quote
Why do you think you are entitled to anything? You started playing 5 months ago and got 40k SP to play with. Apparently that was enough to keep you playing the game. Now they are changing some rules and giving NEW players some skills you already have. This has NO EFFECT on you, except you might see more people around that actually decided to subscribe to the game, which is a good thing!
Don't go asking around for free stuff when you don't deserve/need it. |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
624
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:13:43 -
[12] - Quote
I think he's arguing that at only 5 months in, he's still considered new.
He is still new.
If you've been playing eve for under 3 years, you're a n00b.
That's just how the game is.
Don't worry OP, in 2 years we'll be able to finally start playing EvE |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26342
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:23:51 -
[13] - Quote
GǪand the rest of us are saying that, on the scale of things, the 6 days worth of training is nothing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1570
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:27:18 -
[14] - Quote
OP: You sure you're even allowed to post on eve-o forums?
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5389
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:29:36 -
[15] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I think he's arguing that at only 5 months in, he's still considered new.
He is still new.
If you've been playing eve for under 3 years, you're a n00b.
That's just how the game is.
Don't worry OP, in 2 years we'll be able to finally start playing EvE Nearly year 7 and I'm still a newb.
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T' Elk
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
741
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:32:08 -
[16] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:T' Elk wrote:Because you had more than enough time to make up that miniscule amount of SP in more than 2 weeks. How do you "make up" skill points? If I had started with 400k instead of 50k, then I would now be 2 weeks further into my current skill plan. How is that difficult to understand? As for the battle cruiser comments...just because CCP has made bad decisions in the past doesn't mean that they should continue to do so. You're the one misunderstanding. Your 350k or so sp doesn't matter. You must be one of those instant gratification scrubs that whines about not being able to fly or afford things that much older players can. You don't deserve that SP, you did nothing for it, and CCP owes you nothing for changing it 5 months after it affected you in some insignificant way.
~Badposter since FOOOOREEEEEVAAAAAR~
I come back after 2 years to THIS?
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
23076
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:36:09 -
[17] - Quote
CCP cant make everyone happy all the time.
When it comes to the entitlement of its playerbase, its not 'all the time', its 'ever'.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Paranoid Loyd
7019
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:38:56 -
[18] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:CCP cant make everyone happy all the time.
When it comes to the entitlement of its playerbase, its not 'all the time', its 'ever'.
So what's the SP thread theme animal gonna be then?
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25151
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:41:34 -
[19] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:I'm a fairly new player to EVE, playing roughly 5 months now. With the new skill point changes, new players will be given for free skills that took roughly 1-2 weeks to train. Only players made in the 2 weeks before Vanguards release will be given free skill point compensation. Why is this? 1-2 weeks is roughly 5-10% of my total playing time. That is 1-2 weeks of subscription that I paid for to train those skills, which are now given to new players for free. That's 1-2 weeks of subscription/training time that I could have spent on something else. A lot for a new player. What possible reason is there to not give everyone with an existing account the SP compensation? I know how pathetic it sounds, but for someone with 7m SP, 350k is still a relatively large amount.
I understand this change is to help the new players, but perhaps CCP should remember to treat it's existing players well too. CCP should reinstate learning skills on your account then stall your skill queue until you train the prerequisites and the advanced skills to 4, that would make you realise just how truly frivolous your post is
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
102
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:43:41 -
[20] - Quote
Amazed at the amount of entitled, butthurt people that this change has revealed...
Jealousy at its best.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
23078
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:45:10 -
[21] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:CCP cant make everyone happy all the time.
When it comes to the entitlement of its playerbase, its not 'all the time', its 'ever'.
So what's the SP thread theme animal gonna be then?
Hmm.. lets see... weve done Platypus and Narwhal, 'eve is dying' got Harry Potter Fan Fiction, there was something else in there somewhere.. Cats are out as they run Exploration sites on peoples accounts... Dogs.. no... not dogs.
How about either Trash Pandas (Racoons) or Cat Snakes (Ferrets)? Would either of those be acceptable?
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
25
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:50:27 -
[22] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it?
That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Paranoid Loyd
7019
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:51:44 -
[23] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:How about either Trash Pandas (Racoons) or Cat Snakes (Ferrets)? Would either of those be acceptable? Ooh ferrets sound intriguing.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:57:02 -
[24] - Quote
Gen Mo'Kai wrote:Why do you think you are entitled to anything? You started playing 5 months ago and got 40k SP to play with. Apparently that was enough to keep you playing the game. Now they are changing some rules and giving NEW players some skills you already have. This has NO EFFECT on you, except you might see more people around that actually decided to subscribe to the game, which is a good thing!
Don't go asking around for free stuff when you don't deserve/need it.
GTFO I've never implied I should be given stuff for free. My point is that why should new players now receive stuff (SP) for free? If CCP has deemed that it's good for the game to have more starting points then why do they feel that it isn't needed for the older players? Because they've already received our money?
If I'm totally honest I would happily start the game with 0 SP and have everyone else in the same boat. It's the principal that matters more to me than the actual SP difference. The fact that troglodytes on this forum can't understand that shouldn't be a surprise to me to be honest.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
305
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:57:34 -
[25] - Quote
Goontears. My favorite!
Back from the 90-day suspension for speaking truth to power.
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
102
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:59:49 -
[26] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it? That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion. It has everything to do with this discussion, cause the point is valid. 400k SP can be lost over the time of 5months, if you haven't optimized your attributes for perfect skill time, forgot to update the queue or not being in a clone with attribute implants.
Since you are already 5 months ahead of any newbie today, you already have a huge SP advantage over them. If you'd have optimized your skill training from the start, you probably would have already earned those 400k SP or be well on your way to earn that and more.
Feeling the entitlement for those 400k is a moot point, since you already have an advantage from creating your character earlier thus resulting in a higher amount of SP.
Should a newbie feel entitled for the amount of SP older players have, just cause they didn't create their character early enough? Just be happy that the newbies got a little treat. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25151
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:00:18 -
[27] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:How about either Trash Pandas (Racoons) or Cat Snakes (Ferrets)? Would either of those be acceptable? Ooh ferrets sound intriguing. One ferret as ordered.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
102
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:02:02 -
[28] - Quote
Double post -.- |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
23078
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:03:30 -
[29] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:How about either Trash Pandas (Racoons) or Cat Snakes (Ferrets)? Would either of those be acceptable? Ooh ferrets sound intriguing. One ferret as ordered.
It is settled then. From this moment on, the response to all things SP shall be.. The mischievous Ferret!
So say we all!
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
817
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
I have lost about 2.3 million SP across several characters due to a slight miscommunication with clonestations. My order was lost and the clone not there.
Since CCP has removed the SP loss I feel entitled to a retroactive reimbursement of those skillpoints. But I'm not even really asking this for myself btw. This is for those who lost alot more skillpoints before CCP wisened up.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11993
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:10:27 -
[31] - Quote
So say we all
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
157
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:10:40 -
[32] - Quote
Back in 2008 new chars started with 900k SP, they've always been toying with the starter char stuff. I'm not really for or against it but I would like to know the rationale behind it.
- is this a request from CSM members from a "certain group" who convinced CCP that it would be "better for the game", but really only tried to make it happen so they can make more lol-gank chars?
- is this CCP going "we don't know what we're doing but we're dropping subs so we gotta do something. Quickly, give out free stuff!"
- is there an actual valid, well reasoned logic for it?
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:10:42 -
[33] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it? That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion. It has everything to do with this discussion, cause the point is valid. 400k SP can be lost over the time of 5months, if you haven't optimized your attributes for perfect skill time, forgot to update the queue or not being in a clone with attribute implants. Since you are already 5 months ahead of any newbie today, you already have a huge SP advantage over them. If you'd have optimized your skill training from the start, you probably would have already earned those 400k SP or be well on your way to earn that and more. Feeling the entitlement for those 400k is a moot point, since you already have an advantage from creating your character earlier thus resulting in a higher amount of SP. Should a newbie feel entitled for the amount of SP older players have, just cause they didn't create their character early enough? Just be happy that the newbies got a little treat.
Lol such hypocrisy on the forums.
*extended down time for ~12 hours* "GIVE US OUR MISSING ESS PEE!!!!!!!!!!"
*two weeks training time made redundant* "Ah who cares, it's not much in the grand scheme of things..."
Edit:
To the above poster, I'm inclined to say it's an "oh ****, we are losing subs and better do something!" Knee jerk reaction. Ultimately it changes nothing. The hardest part about a new player in eve isn't SP, it's the steep learning curve and poor guidance to get players on their feet.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
252
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:12:18 -
[34] - Quote
As far as I'm concerned CCP can give fresh newbies 1 million sp. And a cat or ferret, I don't mind. Why shouldn't new players receive free stuff? What if every new player would start demanding to retroactively be gifted free stuff, like a full Geno set for example?
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26345
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:14:07 -
[35] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: It has everything to do with this discussion, cause the point is valid. 400k SP can be lost over the time of 5months, if you haven't optimized your attributes for perfect skill time, forgot to update the queue or not being in a clone with attribute implants.
As a point of comparison, the 350k SP gap is the difference you see between having +5 implants rather than +3s for 81 days.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:14:26 -
[36] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it? That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion. It has everything to do with this discussion, cause the point is valid. 400k SP can be lost over the time of 5months, if you haven't optimized your attributes for perfect skill time, forgot to update the queue or not being in a clone with attribute implants. Since you are already 5 months ahead of any newbie today, you already have a huge SP advantage over them. If you'd have optimized your skill training from the start, you probably would have already earned those 400k SP or be well on your way to earn that and more. Feeling the entitlement for those 400k is a moot point, since you already have an advantage from creating your character earlier thus resulting in a higher amount of SP. Should a newbie feel entitled for the amount of SP older players have, just cause they didn't create their character early enough? Just be happy that the newbies got a little treat. Lol such hypocrisy on the forums. *extended down time for ~12 hours* "GIVE US OUR MISSING ESS PEE!!!!!!!!!!" *two weeks training time made redundant* "Ah who cares, it's not much in the grand scheme of things..." Actually, if you check my post history. You will not see me at any point cry for free SP cause of the blackout that happened. Honestly, I couldn't care less. It just meant I didn't play EvE that day and I went on to do other things.
Was I surprised in a positive way that I got free SP? Sure... Did I feel entitled for free SP, cause I lost a day in-game, while I still had a running skill queue? No...
To be honest, I feel the people feeling entitled for free SP cause of the downtime were people like... well, you.
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Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
13
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:17:09 -
[37] - Quote
I joined May 2013. I believe i was a 2-3 week player when Odyssey hit and Battlecruisers became individual racial battlecruisers. I was not aware enough of the expansion cycles so I remember having 8 days left when I heard about the change before it went live. It was not enough for my new clone to train BC V. Wish I had at least trained Destroyer V. lol. Did it hurt? Yea, can't deny that. But in the long scheme of things, its all fine imho.
I hear of old bros having "learning skills" to train to improve training times. Imagine that Also, skill queues are much more flexible now in terms of how much you can queue up. Again, the clone cost change recently I imagine was wonderful for the bittervets in that they can undock and have fun in some t1 frig and not have a clone cost as much as a battleship when you eventually get podded.
My point is, if you stick with eve for a few years, there will be changes that put you at a slight disadvantage depending on when you started and where you put most of your SPs. This is especially true if your a new-ish player and your skills are disproportionality skewed towards certain fits or ships/strategies. And there are other changes that definitely benefit you clearly by addressing long standing issues people had to put up with.
I think overall, it is a better time than ever for a new guy to come into eve. I have no complaint about that. :) |
Thomas Lot
Mechanical Engineers
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:17:30 -
[38] - Quote
Someone needs to turn a key here. |
Sharps
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:19:01 -
[39] - Quote
But seriously what is the game-breaking reason we can't simply give 350k to everyone and solve this?
- Brand new characters need the boost. Everyone likes this.
- Bittervets are strong independent characters who don't need no 350k because they have so much SP. This is known.
- But somewhere in the middle, there are characters who have varying levels of need. Apparently this makes them entitled whiners.
It seems like there's a nice linear progression of the usefulness of 350k relative to existing SP. Seems like a no-brainer to just give it to everyone.
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
28
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:19:24 -
[40] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it? That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion. It has everything to do with this discussion, cause the point is valid. 400k SP can be lost over the time of 5months, if you haven't optimized your attributes for perfect skill time, forgot to update the queue or not being in a clone with attribute implants. Since you are already 5 months ahead of any newbie today, you already have a huge SP advantage over them. If you'd have optimized your skill training from the start, you probably would have already earned those 400k SP or be well on your way to earn that and more. Feeling the entitlement for those 400k is a moot point, since you already have an advantage from creating your character earlier thus resulting in a higher amount of SP. Should a newbie feel entitled for the amount of SP older players have, just cause they didn't create their character early enough? Just be happy that the newbies got a little treat. Lol such hypocrisy on the forums. *extended down time for ~12 hours* "GIVE US OUR MISSING ESS PEE!!!!!!!!!!" *two weeks training time made redundant* "Ah who cares, it's not much in the grand scheme of things..." Actually, if you check my post history. You will not see me at any point cry for free SP cause of the blackout that happened. Honestly, I couldn't care less. It just meant I didn't play EvE that day and I went on to do other things. Was I surprised in a positive way that I got free SP? Sure... Did I feel entitled for free SP, cause I lost a day in-game, while I still had a running skill queue? No... To be honest, I feel the people feeling entitled for free SP cause of the downtime were people like... well, you.
You really don't get it do you. If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime. The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.
So far the only argument I've seen against giving everyone 350k SP is that I'm an entitled little *****. Solid argument/logic from the bittervets as per usual.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26349
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:23:18 -
[41] - Quote
Sharps wrote:But seriously what is the game-breaking reason we can't simply give 350k to everyone and solve this? Because there's quite literally nothing to solve.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11994
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:24:20 -
[42] - Quote
Hahaha, this is like watching somebody throw a hissy fit in Lidel because the guy behind him found 20-ó on the ground.
Fantastic.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
152
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:24:47 -
[43] - Quote
400k is non-trivial when you have a couple mil sp to your name, but I'd argue anyone and everyone should get it. My understanding is that was the previous precedent with prior skill revamps. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
104
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:26:36 -
[44] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote: You really don't get it do you. If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime. The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.
No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything.
There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting.
New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.
When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day). Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters.
Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
387
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:30:23 -
[45] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for" By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it? That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
Actually in a way it does. You newbros got in after the 24 hour skillqueue and the unlimited skillqueue. You also got in after 2 months worth of learning skills had been removed (granted we did get SP reimbursement for that). You'll also not know what it's like to have to buy a new medical clone for a 100+ SP character.
What you call "your problem / fault" was just part of what EvE was like back in 2006, when I started. No reason for us vets to complain. The game changes constantly and we have to adapt or quit ... whining just exposes you to ridicule. That last one actually is the one thing that doesn't change.
BTW 5 month is not exactly vet ... not by a long shot.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote: You really don't get it do you. If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime. The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.
No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything. There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting. New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.
When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day). Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters. Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?
I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand.
How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!".
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5390
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:41:44 -
[47] - Quote
400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP
350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:44:55 -
[48] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP
350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days
Do you realise how stupid that argument is?
"I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!"
I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years.
Also I think most attribute remaps save between 1-6 weeks in training a year depending on your skill queue, right? In that situation 7 days is worth saving but in this it isn't? Bittervets huh?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
104
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:48:59 -
[49] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote: You really don't get it do you. If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime. The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.
No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything. There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting. New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.
When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day). Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters. Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them? I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand. How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!". But you logic ignores the fact, that within that 5 month training advantage that you have, you could either have that extra 400k SP trained cause of optimization or be well on your way to that and more (Don't know the exact numbers, but as with the post Tippia made, it doesn't seem unrealistic).
You keep ignoring this very vital point. Your character has a great advantage over any newly created character, just by the fact that you should be able to just pop in those +5s if you wanted.
So with this, my argument is still that the SP buff for starting characters is negligible and is just a good way to adjust the starting point, considering the age of the game and their characters. At the end of the day, a 5 month character have enough of an advantage to make up for those 400K SP.
Since you have now, for two posts in a row, just stuck your fingers in your ears, while screaming "LALALALALA YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!". I will just conclude, that no matter what counter arguments are presented to you. You are not willing to have a rational debat about the topic, and instead just wish answers acknowledging your initial premise.
So I tip my hat to you sir, and calmly retreat back to my hideout (under the bridge) :D
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26349
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:49:57 -
[50] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP
350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days Do you realise how stupid that argument is? "I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!" I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years. Once you've played for 5 months, it's well within the realm of how much you may have missed/earned extra.
It's a rounding error, even for you.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:53:09 -
[51] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote: You really don't get it do you. If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime. The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.
No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything. There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting. New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.
When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day). Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters. Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them? I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand. How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!". But you logic ignores the fact, that within that 5 month training advantage that you have, you could either have that extra 400k SP trained cause of optimization or be well on your way to that and more (Don't know the exact numbers, but as with the post Tippia made, it doesn't seem unrealistic). You keep ignoring this very vital point. Your character has a great advantage over any newly created character, just by the fact that you should be able to just pop in those +5s if you wanted. So with this, my argument is still that the SP buff for starting characters is negligible and is just a good way to adjust the starting point, considering the age of the game and their characters. At the end of the day, a 5 month character have enough of an advantage to make up for those 400K SP. Since you have now, for two posts in a row, just stuck your fingers in your ears, while screaming "LALALALALA YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!". I will just conclude, that no matter what counter arguments are presented to you. You are not willing to have a rational debat about the topic, and instead just wish answers acknowledging your initial premise. So I tip my hat to you sir, and calmly retreat back to my hideout (under the bridge) :D
I understand your argument. You're saying that if I optimised over the 5 months I would have saved over the 5 months more than 350k.
But my point is that if I had optimised as well as started after this SP change, then 5 months down the line I would be 350k (5%) better off in terms of SP. I don't understand why that's hard to comprehend.
And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2244
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:08:20 -
[52] - Quote
OP is probably the type of person who got mad at Valve for making Team Fortress 2 free to play 2 years after he bought an orange box or something like that. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26349
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:10:13 -
[53] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion? What principle? No skill is being removed. There is nothing to reimburse.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
387
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:13:45 -
[54] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote: Didn't mean to imply I personally am a vet. I'm clearly not.
I could happily adapt to a 24 hour skill queue. Again, if you can't be bothered to log in within 24 hours of your current skill finishing, then that is your fault. Having a skill removed that you have already trained isn't your fault. Spot the difference?
So did you think that CCP should have given you the SP back for the skills they removed?
What I'm saying is that the system changed to a point where making a mistake has become almost impossible. Before the skillqueue, you had to check whether you had a long or short skill training before you logged of. There was also no SP reimbursement when I started, because the old system didn't allow it.
... and yes I was happy about all the SP I could directly apply to my character.
What gets a bit tiring is that some people can't enjoy the game as it is ... there seems always to be a reason to whine or complain. When it is really warranted to complain, do complain. But the topic you're raising is so small, irrelevant ...
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:19:36 -
[55] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion? What principle? No skill is being removed. There is nothing to reimburse.
So a skill that no longer has to be trained is not the same as removing that level of the skill from the game?
I never realised one of the requirements for posting on the EVE forums was a lobotomy.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Paranoid Loyd
7021
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:30:50 -
[56] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:How about either Trash Pandas (Racoons) or Cat Snakes (Ferrets)? Would either of those be acceptable? Ooh ferrets sound intriguing. One ferret as ordered. It is settled then. From this moment on, the response to all things SP shall be.. The mischievous Ferret! So say we all! Ferrets it is.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
23083
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:40:08 -
[57] - Quote
I see your Ferret.. and raise you another Ferret!
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
|
Paranoid Loyd
7021
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:45:06 -
[58] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Bath time!
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26350
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:45:15 -
[59] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:So a skill that no longer has to be trained is not the same as removing that level of the skill from the game? The skill is still not removed. At most, you might see it as a change in prerequisites.
So no. A skill remaining in the game is not the same thing as removing the skill from the game, and as such, there is nothing to reimburse.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5391
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:54:28 -
[60] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP
350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days Do you realise how stupid that argument is? "I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!" I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years. Also I think most attribute remaps save between 1-6 weeks in training a year depending on your skill queue, right? In that situation 7 days is worth saving but in this it isn't? Bittervets huh? Do you realize I didn't post any argument? |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
2990
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:01:25 -
[61] - Quote
This thread is a case of much ado about nothing.
This is not a signature.
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services The WINGSPAN Logo Alliance
500
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:09:27 -
[62] - Quote
Basically no matter what CCP does there will be a group that wants more SP. The reality is as has been pointed out, many players have gotten or lost tons of SP before due to changes like this. It is minor by comparison, unfortunately.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2252
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:10:35 -
[63] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Maekchu wrote:Johnny Riko wrote: You really don't get it do you. If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime. The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.
No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything. There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting. New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.
When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day). Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters. Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them? I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand. How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!". But you logic ignores the fact, that within that 5 month training advantage that you have, you could either have that extra 400k SP trained cause of optimization or be well on your way to that and more (Don't know the exact numbers, but as with the post Tippia made, it doesn't seem unrealistic). You keep ignoring this very vital point. Your character has a great advantage over any newly created character, just by the fact that you should be able to just pop in those +5s if you wanted. So with this, my argument is still that the SP buff for starting characters is negligible and is just a good way to adjust the starting point, considering the age of the game and their characters. At the end of the day, a 5 month character have enough of an advantage to make up for those 400K SP. Since you have now, for two posts in a row, just stuck your fingers in your ears, while screaming "LALALALALA YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!". I will just conclude, that no matter what counter arguments are presented to you. You are not willing to have a rational debat about the topic, and instead just wish answers acknowledging your initial premise. So I tip my hat to you sir, and calmly retreat back to my hideout (under the bridge) :D I understand your argument. You're saying that if I optimised over the 5 months I would have saved over the 5 months more than 350k. But my point is that if I had optimised as well as started after this SP change, then 5 months down the line I would be 350k (5%) better off in terms of SP. I don't understand why that's hard to comprehend. And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion?
Do you expect stores to reimburse you a few months after you purchased something because they just lowered the price under what you paid back then?
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11998
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:15:01 -
[64] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Do you expect stores to reimburse you a few months after you purchased something because they just lowered the price under what you paid back then?
Do you remember the torrential downpour of tears when the collectors edition went on sale?
Some people are actually that entitled .
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25155
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:25:20 -
[65] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Do you expect stores to reimburse you a few months after you purchased something because they just lowered the price under what you paid back then?
Do you remember the torrential downpour of tears when the collectors edition went on sale? Some people are actually that entitled . "The car you sold me 5 months ago is now available with 2 litres of fuel for the same price I paid, can I has?"
Yeah that'd go down well in real life.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:10:01 -
[66] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Basically no matter what CCP does there will be a group that wants more SP. The reality is as has been pointed out, many players have gotten or lost tons of SP before due to changes like this. It is minor by comparison, unfortunately.
I don't even want the SP. But if they are going to give new players something that they didn't give everyone else then I think it is fair to compensate everyone.
If it were up to me There would be no SP increase for new players. I don't think that is the way to make EVE more accessible. If that were the case then people would just buy high SP characters and then be l33t PVP pilots.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote: The car you sold me 5 months ago is now available with 2 litres of fuel for the same price I paid, can I has?"
Yeah that'd go down well in real life.
Terrible attempt at an analogy. It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."
Coincidently that is what actually happens IRL. Whoops.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26351
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:21:13 -
[67] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Terrible attempt at an analogy. It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge." That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here.
Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault GÇö they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:24:58 -
[68] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Terrible attempt at an analogy. It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge." That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here. Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault GÇö they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package.
If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12001
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:26:52 -
[69] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Terrible attempt at an analogy. It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge." That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here. Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault GÇö they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package. If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it? And
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
624
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:30:58 -
[70] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:
If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it?
To keep the vehicle analogy, I am am motorcycle enthusiast, love riding. I grew up riding Honda, but needed something for more extreme roads. My market pointed to the Triumph Tiger XC. Well, a month after I bought mine, Honda announced that the Africa Twin was coming here. Lets say the bike I bought was a honda, say a modified NC750x. Should Honda have to credit me simply because they improved their design?
Just cause something is good, does not mean it cannot be better. At some point, that announcement is made and guaranteed that there is usually a few people who got in juuuuust before that announcement was made. In the end, you are above in SP. guaranteed. So what if they start with more, you are still ahead. The one thing that would be fair though is that if you created the character just before (say didn't know the change was coming) and were below that SP point when it came out, then said person should get bonus SP enough to make them that minimum. Just like a minimum wage increase. If you are below that before the change, still gotta be bumped up.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26352
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:31:24 -
[71] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it? Because a better baseline package is assumed to be more attractive to new customers.
That's why your analogy was so stupid: you tried to paint it as a manufacturing flaw, rather than a different sales pitch.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
99
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:33:09 -
[72] - Quote
Not even real Goons shiptoast this bad.
Yay for plastic Goons.
Bring back 900K starting points and really put him on tilt CCP. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25157
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:34:45 -
[73] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Terrible attempt at an analogy. Certainly better than the one you attempted.
Quote:It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge." Except you weren't sold faulty goods, you were sold fit for purpose goods 5 months ago that now come with a free gift.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12002
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 22:45:11 -
[74] - Quote
Hahaha, plastic goons.
Again, such a petty thread.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
Dradis Aulmais
RW Vindicator Connection Phoebe Freeport Republic
1047
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:01:38 -
[75] - Quote
he ferret is the domesticated form of the European polecat, a mammal belonging to the same genus as the weasel, Mustela of the family Mustelidae. They typically have brown, black, white, or mixed fur.
In various places throughout the world, an ancient, horrifying sport has made a resurgence. Ferret-legging is an endurance event wherein participants drop two live ferrets into their pants, which are cinched off at the ankles and waist. The animals claw and bite fiercely in an attempt to get free. The winner is the man who can withstand this torment the longes
Despite their popularity, there are many places where it is illegal to own a ferret, including New York City and the state of California.
SO SAY WE ALL
Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896
Free The Scope Three
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Kynric
Sky Fighters
353
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:03:37 -
[76] - Quote
I share the sentiment that a new players life is rough but this while it will help also hurts. I remember as a new player the feeling of rapid progress as I loaded a bunch of 30 min skills. This change skips some of that rather pleasant feeling. Have you considered instead of adding skill points just lowering the requirements to fly t2 from 5 to 4. That way they can get into a hac, bomber, recon, command ship or whatever else faster but they still have the feeling of progress which was so pleasant. Those 5s would still have pkenty of meaning. |
Ian Morbius
272
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:05:31 -
[77] - Quote
"All new characters will now start with,... 400,000 skillpoints." Patchnotes always make me laugh.
Hell,.... get them an even million.
It's like deja-vu, all over again.
Yogi Berra
|
Another Posting Alt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:07:26 -
[78] - Quote
Ima GoodGirl wrote: plastic Goons.
You have my +1. |
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
455
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:20:51 -
[79] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:If it were up to me There would be no SP increase for new players. As luck would have it, it's not up to you.
Edit: Go go Ferrets!
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format.
Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
253
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:37:28 -
[80] - Quote
So it's going to be 400 000sp +1 plastic goon?
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12004
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:38:52 -
[81] - Quote
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:
Edit: Go go Ferrets!
Please enjoy this 1991 production: the cat that came in from the cold.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25166
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:45:43 -
[82] - Quote
Putting Ferrets down your trousers (Ferret Legging) is a bizarre activity, vaguely classed as a sport by miners in years gone by, usually in the pubs and clubs within the many colliery villages in and around the coal fields of Yorkshire.
Putting Ferrets down your trousers (Ferret Legging) involved the tying of trouser leg cuffs, preventing the two ferrets escaping, with the waistband also tied in a similar way.
With several contestants lined up,with wriggling ferrets bidding to find a way of escape and the audience giggling and shouting, the winner would be the person exercising some control and not allowing himself the joy of removing the frustrated ferrets from his garments. As a precaution, ferret competition stewards, would be standing by with buckets of cold water, sharp scissors, first aid box and a pint of strong ale, administering treatment to the chap, and possibly his chap, after stepping in to release the ferrets preventing further damage.
Considering, that contestants in this strange sport of Ferret Legging were not allowed to wear underwear or any form of protection, taking into account ferret teeth and ferret claws and the possible damage they can inflict on soft tissue, the miners of yesterday were a foolhardy/hardy bunch. Make up your own mind on which description to choose!
Several opinions are available for consideration regarding why this ferret sport became so popular:-
1. Was the ferret sport motivated by suggestions from minerGÇÖs wives as an early form of contraception?
2. Was the Cumbrian art of gurning borne out of the weird facial contortions displayed by Miner's 'Putting Ferrets down their Trousers (Ferret Legging contestants)?
3. Was the introduction of tight drainpipe trousers and narrow cut jeans of the fashion of yesteryear a ploy to prevent young ferret owners joining in the sport?
4. Did anyone consider the Health & Well-being of ferrets, when subjected to the trauma of manoeuvring themselves around the tangy nether regions of these respective ferret owners?
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1033
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:02:02 -
[83] - Quote
A few years back, you could roll a character with over 1 million sp. So it changes, get over it.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1105
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:20:28 -
[84] - Quote
LOL TRASH PANDAS
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
157
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:56:30 -
[85] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:A few years back, you could roll a character with over 1 million sp. So it changes, get over it.
Not true. |
Dradis Aulmais
RW Vindicator Connection Phoebe Freeport Republic
1050
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 01:58:58 -
[86] - Quote
It is unclear when ferrets were first domesticated, but the critters have a long and storied history. Greek scholarsGÇöAristophanes in 450 BCE and Aristotle in 350 BCEGÇöwrote about a ferret-like animal. Some lore asserts that ancient Egyptians even kept them as pets, but the absence of ferret bones in explored tombs casts doubt on that claim. Remains have been found in a medieval castle in Belgium, but there is no mention of the pets in any contemporary writings. It's also possible that the ferret was exclusively a lower class pet, which would explain the lack of documentation.
In the late 15th century, Leonardo da Vinci painted Cecilia Gallerani holding a weasel-like creature. Although the animal has been dubbed an ermine, many scholars believe the animal is actually a ferret.
April 2nd is national ferret day
Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896
Free The Scope Three
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
627
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 02:00:21 -
[87] - Quote
It'll take alot more than 400k skill points to have new players enjoy themselves in EvE right out of the gate. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1776
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 04:05:09 -
[88] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Back in 2008 new chars started with 900k SP, they've always been toying with the starter char stuff. I'm not really for or against it but I would like to know the rationale behind it.
- is this a request from CSM members from a "certain group" who convinced CCP that it would be "better for the game", but really only tried to make it happen so they can make more lol-gank chars?
- is this CCP going "we don't know what we're doing but we're dropping subs so we gotta do something. Quickly, give out free stuff!"
- is there an actual valid, well reasoned logic for it?
the only problem I can think of that is new players deciding they want to try a different role and up to a certain point it was easier to re-roll than train the skills. I started with missile bombardment 5, which was well... pretty dang useless.
I tried to look up my old trial account because it would be funny to see what he started with, but it made me put in a character name and only god knows the numbers that go after caldari citizen, I remember some random shield skills not really sure on what else. The gallente drones 5, or any race gunnery/small turret 5 were imo the best.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1533
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 04:31:26 -
[89] - Quote
This change will really only effect throw-away gank alts. The sort you sub for a month to collect tears then get rid of rather than try and recover the lost security status.
On a long term character its neither here nor there.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1598
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 04:53:43 -
[90] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:This change will really only effect throw-away gank alts. The sort you sub for a month to collect tears then get rid of rather than try and recover the lost security status.
On a long term character its neither here nor there. I tend to think it's definitely a QoL increase for new characters of any type or player age. Long term characters will never be affected by any starting skill change outside of the absurd, so it could never be for them.
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
628
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 05:16:06 -
[91] - Quote
Really the best way to increase new player retention is to have skill point reward systems for essential skills(i.e. engineering navigation) via quests up until a certain number.
10 years ago, people had 10 years to reach this point.
10 years ago, everything was new/unknown and the joy was in the discovery. That joy is gone. Everything's figured out and there's a clear cut way to do what you think you want.
But we all know that'll never happen because of the "back in my day" crowd who all still light their homes with candles and heat them with wood burning stoves. |
Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1123
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 05:25:35 -
[92] - Quote
I wish the forums had a killboard. So I could wh0re on them.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 06:29:00 -
[93] - Quote
Still haven't seen a valid argument as to why CCP can't give everyone the SP increase besides me being a salty, entitled goon. GJ eve forums.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 06:32:03 -
[94] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Still haven't seen a valid argument as to why CCP can't give everyone the SP increase besides me being a salty, entitled goon. GJ eve forums. Have you tried reading?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1777
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 06:34:32 -
[95] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Still haven't seen a valid argument as to why CCP can't give everyone the SP increase besides me being a salty, entitled goon. GJ eve forums. Have you tried reading?
buuut I want 350k free SP just for existing!
@ChainsawPlankto
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 06:59:28 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Still haven't seen a valid argument as to why CCP can't give everyone the SP increase besides me being a salty, entitled goon. GJ eve forums. Have you tried reading?
You clearly haven't. Why should it matter the SP amount? If CCP are willing to refund millions of SP then they should do the same for a few thousand SP. "Value" is not universal for all players, amazingly enough.
How about you explain to me the difference between having a skill removed and the bonuses given to players, and a skill being given to all new players from day 1? I can't wait to hear your reasoning here.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:12:54 -
[97] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Why should it matter the SP amount? If CCP are willing to refund millions of SP then they should do the same for a few thousand SP. There is nothing to refund. Nothing is being removed.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:15:28 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Why should it matter the SP amount? If CCP are willing to refund millions of SP then they should do the same for a few thousand SP. There is nothing to refund. Nothing is being removed.
Strong autism. The training time for the skills that you start with has been removed.
^ "How about you explain to me the difference between having a skill removed and the bonuses given to players, and a skill being given to all new players from day 1? I can't wait to hear your reasoning here."
If it is such a menial amount of SP, then why not give it to everyone? Does it affect your game in a negative way if everyone, including yourself gets what you call an insignificant boost in SP?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:17:45 -
[99] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:How about you explain to me the difference between having a skill removed and the bonuses given to players, and a skill being given to all new players from day 1? I can't wait to hear your reasoning here. The difference is that in the first case, the skill is removed whereas in the second, it is not.
I don't care how strong your autism is. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:21:48 -
[100] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:How about you explain to me the difference between having a skill removed and the bonuses given to players, and a skill being given to all new players from day 1? I can't wait to hear your reasoning here. The difference is that in the first case, the skill is removed whereas in the second, it is not. I don't care how strong your autism is. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
As a child, were you the kid who struggled to put the different shaped pegs into the different shaped holes?
I'll repeat myself. The training time for the skills that you will now be starting with, has being removed from the game.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
630
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:22:35 -
[101] - Quote
Now Now children, play nice.
Don't resort to tippia's level, you're better than that. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2532
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:30:03 -
[102] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote: As a child, were you the kid who struggled to put the different shaped pegs into the different shaped holes?
I'll repeat myself. The training time for the skills that you will now be starting with, has being removed from the game.
The skill you trained however, has not been removed from the game. You are attempting to equate opportunity cost with actual removal. The two are not the same and never will be no matter how much you protest.
I would not personally be against any character without the new starting skills gaining the starting skills of their faction, and tough luck to Mags and their OCD in that case.
But I am very much against a free 350k SP unallocated SP grab which is what you are attempting to justify. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:31:55 -
[103] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:I'll repeat myself. The training time for the skills that you will now be starting with, has being removed from the game. That's not a repetition, but it yields the same answer: the skill has not been removed; there is nothing to reimburse.
Someone else is given something; this entitles you to nothing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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L'Amaris Aros
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:40:11 -
[104] - Quote
As someone who just started playing 3 weeks ago this change feels like a slap for me: I have only 800k SP at this point and spent time training most of these skills. Now on the long run it won't make much of a difference and I don't demand them giving me SP. What I would like them to do is just grant these skills to any character who hasn't trained them. This changes nothing for the old players (who mostly won't care anyway). It is slightly unlucky for those who have trained most of them (like me) but it would be a good gesture for the handful of new players that signed up in the weeks before the patch who didn't know about it and might end up with less SP than a newly created character.
What I mean is that for a new player little things do matter like the laughable amount of ISK you pay for the skill books and a few days of training time. Either everyone has to train and buy stuff or no one, to make it fair. |
Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 07:53:49 -
[105] - Quote
L'Amaris Aros wrote:As someone who just started playing 3 weeks ago this change feels like a slap for me: I have only 800k SP at this point and spent time training most of these skills. Now on the long run it won't make much of a difference and I don't demand them giving me SP. What I would like them to do is just grant these skills to any character who hasn't trained them. This changes nothing for the old players (who mostly won't care anyway). It is slightly unlucky for those who have trained most of them (like me) but it would be a good gesture for the handful of new players that signed up in the weeks before the patch who didn't know about it and might end up with less SP than a newly created character.
What I mean is that for a new player little things do matter like the laughable amount of ISK you pay for the skill books and a few days of training time. Either everyone has to train and buy stuff or no one, to make it fair.
You have 3 slots per account, simply create a couple of new chars and you prosper x2, no need to cry then that your 3 week old char is underprivileged. It is really that simple!
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
130
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 08:23:22 -
[106] - Quote
I see this as putting a Hulk Bandaide on a broken arm.
Long-term it is worthless, but it helps in the short run.
Now - if what someone said about new characters of up to two weeks before getting this boost in SP (for lack of better words, I will use fair) get this boost, they have now gotten the same SP as a player who had paid for month. So all these new characters are getting like half a month free of SP gain - in all aspects this is unfair to ever player, new and old (the old BC/Destoryer stuff is a different topic and enough time has lapsed that using it is stupid).
Simple fix - write a script that applies the amount of SP to the current skill in queue, if that skills completes it applies remaining amount to the next skill, etc...
-1 for unallocated SP all players +1 for allocated SP to all players
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 08:27:39 -
[107] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:they have now gotten the same SP as a player who had paid for month. So all these new characters are getting like half a month free of SP gain They have a very odd moon where you live.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1124
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 08:28:34 -
[108] - Quote
L'Amaris Aros wrote:As someone who just started playing 3 weeks ago this change feels like a slap for me: I have only 800k SP at this point and spent time training most of these skills. Now on the long run it won't make much of a difference and I don't demand them giving me SP. What I would like them to do is just grant these skills to any character who hasn't trained them. This changes nothing for the old players (who mostly won't care anyway). It is slightly unlucky for those who have trained most of them (like me) but it would be a good gesture for the handful of new players that signed up in the weeks before the patch who didn't know about it and might end up with less SP than a newly created character.
What I mean is that for a new player little things do matter like the laughable amount of ISK you pay for the skill books and a few days of training time. Either everyone has to train and buy stuff or no one, to make it fair.
Them's the breaks, kiddo. CCP has to draw a line somewhere. Should have seen the tears from many veteran players who weren't paying attention for months when the dessy/BC skills split. And that was, again, when not a single player lost any ability to fly any ship. Because why? Nobody really knows. Just some whine over someone else's skill points as far as I can tell.
The bottom line here is the same as it has always been. Nothing has been removed. If you could fly it before, you can fly it after the change.
CCP has never promised that it won't go the other way!
It has only promised to make sure your character abilities don't regress.
CCP nerfs and buffs ship abilities on a regular basis. Almost every 6 weeks these days. CCP nerfs and buffs various various game mechanics at different times making certain ships and minerals more or less valuable.
Things about your particular situation don't change. CCP doesn't take your ships away. Even in the case of high-sec caps. Those still exist. You can't do much with any of them, but they are still there.
Same thing that happened when CCP made it easier to train into an Orca and also Carriers. You used to have to train a skill that is now pointless if all you want is to use an Orca as a high-sec hauler or WH porti-station.
Well, now I have a skill that I don't care much for (well, an alt does). It was a crapload more than what you're griping about. I argued against it at the time, but as I've been around longer and seen more changes, I see the reasons better now.
You will too if you stick around, have some fun, and stop worrying about other people's skill points.
CCP needs the ability to set this rule in stone so that it doesn't have to wonder about it every time they want to make a balance change. Otherwise it's total chaos every six weeks and nothing ever gets done.
So there's one rule: no matter what happens, it won't affect your character's ability to fly ships. That's it. That's all you get. And trust me, it's enough. Stick around. Get blown up a little bit. Maybe blow someone else up a little. It's fun. You'll like it a lot more here if you don't worry about this right now.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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L'Amaris Aros
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 08:36:53 -
[109] - Quote
Faenir Antollare wrote: You have 3 slots per account, simply create a couple of new chars and you prosper x2, no need to cry then that your 3 week old char is underprivileged. It is really that simple!
You don't really get what I mean? I said for a new player this easily leaves a feeling that the change is not fair and giving those skills to everyone would mitigate this feeling without just giving free SP to everyone. Isn't it the goal to get new players that stay in the game? I mean I know that the amount of players who are really affected (as the ones who started during the last few weeks) should be so small that even if some quit cause of this CCP doesn't have to care. It just sets the incentive - what if they continue pulling such changes? I guess they probably do and did in the past... It doesn't look to me as if my post is crying but apparently forum folks here see any criticism with a proposed solution as such. You need a lot more to make me start whining and if were at that point I would silently quit instead of posting stupid rants in a public forum to embarrass myself What I want is that this game runs for many more years as starting it is a long time investment. Thus it needs new players to offset people leaving and annoying those new players is counterproductive.
Now for some real criticism of the change: I think they should have left it at 50k SP cause the fast rate of getting new skills and being allowed to use new equipment actually gives a feeling of satisfaction. That may draw more people into the game before the long waiting times eventually hit. With the change you will mostly get small stats improvements at the beginning.
Also I won't create a new char now and pay all the money to train him parallel to this one since I already trained some skills that I don't want to wait for again. As I said for a beginner waiting a week feels huge while for a vet waiting 3 months probably has the same effect.
Edit: @Glathull In Short: First impressions are very important for new players. After a few months everyone will know they are getting screwed over by everyone and CCP regularly and mostly likely care less than a few week old char. |
Nakito Kobara
Yamagata Syndicate Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
50
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 08:50:37 -
[110] - Quote
In the grand scheme of things.....who cares....
Yamagata Syndicate - Caldari State FW, PvE, PvP. Join today!
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1124
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 08:54:49 -
[111] - Quote
L'Amaris Aros wrote:
Edit: @Glathull In Short: First impressions are very important for new players. After a few months everyone will know they are getting screwed over by everyone and CCP regularly and mostly likely care less than a few week old char.
Yeah, but the important thing to note is that you haven't been screwed over. Guess what you have that that hypothetical new player doesn't have: skill playing the game.
Here's a serious offer. I'll role an alt the day before this change rolls out. No extra 400k skill points for me. You roll one the day after. All that delicious not getting screwed over. Neither one of us does any training on either of these alts. No money or isk required by you.
Then let's duel. We fit what we can fit with those skills. I'll pay for everything. You risk absolutely nothing in this. No links, no implants, no remote reps, nothing fancy. Straight up solo duel.
Your extra 400k skill points against my lack of them. Let's find out if this really matters at all.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 09:09:07 -
[112] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:T' Elk wrote:Because you had more than enough time to make up that miniscule amount of SP in more than 2 weeks. How do you "make up" skill points? If I had started with 400k instead of 50k, then I would now be 2 weeks further into my current skill plan. How is that difficult to understand? As for the battle cruiser comments...just because CCP has made bad decisions in the past doesn't mean that they should continue to do so.
I agree with you, but then it's not a surprise to see CCP shying away from what was originally being thought. As they seem to spend too much time worrying about what their player base thinks.
400K start might as well not have bothered, it won't do much at all.
Still I've already unsubscribed just logging in to change skills, just in case.
Play GW2 now anyway, actually having fun in that game, only problem is I spend too much money there and too much time playing it.
As for Destroyers and Battleships they were changed, so that they were like frigates, cruiser... But yeah that wasn't really a good move either as all it does is extend the training required to get those skills. |
L'Amaris Aros
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 09:15:17 -
[113] - Quote
Glathull wrote: Yeah, but the important thing to note is that you haven't been screwed over. Guess what you have that that hypothetical new player doesn't have: skill playing the game.
Here's a serious offer. I'll role an alt the day before this change rolls out. No extra 400k skill points for me. You roll one the day after. All that delicious not getting screwed over. Neither one of us does any training on either of these alts. No money or isk required by you.
Then let's duel. We fit what we can fit with those skills. I'll pay for everything. You risk absolutely nothing in this. No links, no implants, no remote reps, nothing fancy. Straight up solo duel.
Your extra 400k skill points against my lack of them. Let's find out if this really matters at all.
The second part of my edit came too late cause of the one post every 5 minutes restriction for new accounts. Stupid forum
I admit using the words "screw over" was exaggerated. I wanted to make sure you get my point that the moment you are more invested into the game, the hurdle to quit is higher. You just need to get people to this point and I'm against anything that stops people from getting there cause CCP set up some nice perceived (or maybe real) disadvantages.
About your offer: My lack of experience will mostly likely get me trashed but we can do it anyway for the fun . |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1033
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 09:34:42 -
[114] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Val'Dore wrote:A few years back, you could roll a character with over 1 million sp. So it changes, get over it. Not true. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I've rolled a Khanid with 1,003K sp in 2007.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:12:33 -
[115] - Quote
Nakito Kobara wrote:In the grand scheme of things.....who cares....
It's the principle. If CCP gave new players 7m starting skillpoints, I'd feel pretty pissed that I paid for that amount of skill training, only for new people to be given it.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
184
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:16:28 -
[116] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Nakito Kobara wrote:In the grand scheme of things.....who cares.... It's the principle. If CCP gave new players 7m starting skillpoints, I'd feel pretty pissed that I paid for that amount of skill training, only for new people to be given it.
That's why they are only boosting by 350k, so you don't feel even more pissed about it than you do already.
But in trying to appease the player base they're just being ineffectual.
They would have been better off just increasing the start sp to something worth having and reimbursing the difference to everyone else. |
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1270
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:16:33 -
[117] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Nakito Kobara wrote:In the grand scheme of things.....who cares.... It's the principle. If CCP gave new players 7m starting skillpoints, I'd feel pretty pissed that I paid for that amount of skill training, only for new people to be given it.
Yeah but it's not 7m, now is it?
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
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David Therman
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:24:35 -
[118] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Nakito Kobara wrote:In the grand scheme of things.....who cares.... It's the principle. If CCP gave new players 7m starting skillpoints, I'd feel pretty pissed that I paid for that amount of skill training, only for new people to be given it.
But it's not 7m, it's an extra 350k... which is basically 1 week in skill training time, assuming 50k is what you can gain in 24 hours. 1 week! That'll feel like nothing, if you hang around long enough...
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:57:48 -
[119] - Quote
David Therman wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:Nakito Kobara wrote:In the grand scheme of things.....who cares.... It's the principle. If CCP gave new players 7m starting skillpoints, I'd feel pretty pissed that I paid for that amount of skill training, only for new people to be given it. But it's not 7m, it's an extra 350k... which is basically 1 week in skill training time, assuming 50k is what you can gain in 24 hours. 1 week! That'll feel like nothing, if you hang around long enough...
I fully understand that. So the only reason that CCP shouldn't reimburse everyone is that it's a small enough amount to not **** everyone off. I said from the start that it was the principle of what CCP are doing, not the scale that annoys me. If you steal from a shop and get caught, your punishment isn't dictated by how much you stole. Why does the size of the difference influence the policy behind the change?
You can look at it the other way, if it's such a small amount of SP, then what's the problem in reimbursing everyone?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Xylem Viliana
Protomonolithic
326
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:13:45 -
[120] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:blah blah blah
Its CCP's game. They will do whatever the hell they want with it, if you dont understand that then you might want to learn it or find something else to do.
Instead of being another forum moaner, just move on. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26367
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:48:54 -
[121] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:It's the principle. What principle? The only ones who are even remotely negatively affected by this are characters made in somewhere in the 15GÇô21 day span preceding the patch, who might conceivably come out with less total SP than they'd had under the new system. For anyone else, it has no effect or impact on them.
Quote:You can look at it the other way, if it's such a small amount of SP, then what's the problem in reimbursing everyone? Nothing is removed. There is nothing to reimburse, especially not to everyone.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Salvos Rhoska
1505
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:00:40 -
[122] - Quote
I agree with OP.
Im for 350k addition to all existing EVE accounts at the point of change (regardless of whether they are subbed at that point).
Not just because Ill take any SP I can get, but because its fair to everyone.
Furthermore the kind of community hype even this small SP addition to existing accounts would generate helps source back some lost players (SP whores that we all are).
The net SP inflation across EVE is insignificant, and since all characters woyld benefit from it equally, it merely begningly raises the status quo of everyone equally, as well as providing an opportunity for some small diversification/specialisation which prompts more player created content.
Its win/win/win really, for everyone involved.
PvE v PvP
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26367
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:13:12 -
[123] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3215
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:30:52 -
[124] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Command ships... Stfu with your two weeks. Haha, holy ****, command ships. all that training and they aren't even good. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
992
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:35:42 -
[125] - Quote
I say anyone under 5 mil SP gets the free SP!
Not today spaghetti.
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:36:29 -
[126] - Quote
Go back to Starship Troopers. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12487
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:37:51 -
[127] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Amazed at the amount of entitled, butthurt people that this change has revealed...
Jealousy at its best.
but but but, CCP is giving new characers like 7-10 DAYS more SP.
I paid for my 1st 7 days of SP (no trial crap here) and the sub cost was 15 bucks for a month. CCP is not giving new characters 1/4th of a month for FREE. Therefore, I demand CCP reimburse me the $3.75 worth of game time they are basically stealing from me to give to new players!
Also, F y'all sarcasm meters, I'm for real. Now, did someone see where I laid my bottle of Xanax, I think I may need it because of all this injustice.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12487
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:40:27 -
[128] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.
+1
This is why everyone cries for free SP if something happens to the server, because CCP was trying to be nice that one time and gave everyone free SP,.
Now it's some kind on entitlement people expect despite the fact that everyone here agrees to the EULA and the EULA says CCP doesn't owe us anything even when the servers die for a time.
|
Memphis Baas
603
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:41:49 -
[129] - Quote
You know what, it's such a minuscule amount of points that it probably doesn't even matter.
They can probably make it "free 350k skillpoints to all ACTIVE accounts" and maybe get a few more people to subscribe for a month. Other MMO's run "double xp weekends" or "double bounty weekends" as promotions all the time.
Newbies created under this promotion would get the 350k the newbies start with under the new system, plus 350k that everybody gets as a limited time promotion. That way they feel even better about trying out the game. |
Salvos Rhoska
1505
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:41:53 -
[130] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets. Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. The breach of the existing precedent is harmonized by applying the same boost equally throughout the entirety of the character base. The precedent of a common status quo remains intact, and the only remaining breached precedent is that of adding SP to the pool in the first place (as mitigated by the above, since everyone would get it).
Arbitrarity: The increase for new characters is not arbitrary (obviously) . The function and purpose is evidently in providing more options for players. However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change. This, again, is reconciled in a universal SP boost.
I understand the "slippery slope" side as well, and though this is technically termed an argumentative fallacy, in practice (in my experience and view) it more often than not actually proves itself true.
TLDR: Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change.
Not making the 350k boost universal creates problems in equity, precedent and arguments of arbitrariness. Making the 350k boost universal resolves all of those, and maintains status quo and the integrity of precedent, because nobody is excluded, and hence cannot argue loss of equity, nor that the change which only applies to characters created thereafter would constitute an arbtrary one, as they benefit from it equally.
Pragmatically, all it does is raise the SP base of the entirety of EVE. There is no rational, nor enlightened self-interest argument, that can contravene that.
PvE v PvP
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26371
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:15:34 -
[131] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. Which precedent is this and how is it broken? There have been four of five different GÇ£status quo:sGÇ¥, none of which have remained intact. This is the first time it's moving in this direction and affected this particular group. Given the group that is affected, something is needed to smooth out the gap that the change creates GÇö a gap that simply does not exist outside of this group.
This is something vastly different from the unprecedented and completely unmotivated notion of just handing out 350k SP to everyone for no reason.
Quote:Arbitrarity: However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change. Quite the opposite. It is completely arbitrary if other characters get it because there's no reason to give them any SP. It's the lack of reason that makes it arbitrary.
Quote:Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change. GǪexcept that there is no broken precedent and no arbitrariness. It only applies to a very specific and clearly defined group for a very specific and clearly defined reason.
Giving away 350k SP for no reason has no precenent. Giving it to everyone, with no appreciation of why it is needed is arbitrary. Any suggestion otherwise is ignorant of history and language.
Quote:I understand you dont want anyone getting free SP. That is valid, because it is universal. Then you don't understand at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
smokeAjoint
Unsettled Unsettled.
67
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:20:55 -
[132] - Quote
Cat Snake
**-álegalize it**
|
Salvos Rhoska
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:27:21 -
[133] - Quote
Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?
PvE v PvP
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1033
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:29:20 -
[134] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?
I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say:
Yes.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
107
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:34:55 -
[135] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: I resist it also, unless it is applied as universal to all characters, in which case the precedent of SP status quo is maintained, and it cannot be argued as arbitrary, since everyone benefits from it equally.
But this change is not meant to benefit everyone equally. It is meant to benefit new players get a few skills they eventually would train anyway.
Changes in EvE happen all the time that in some way will not be beneficial to someone. Should I feel entitled to my 50M isk I used on clones, when people nowadays don't have to pay for clone upgrades? Did they reimburse all SP lost, when they removed SP loss on death?
CCP has already stated what they would consider a fresh character in this case, since they will provide additional SP for characters created within 2 weeks of the Vanguard release.
So it just happened that older players didn't benefit from the change this time. How can someone feel envy towards a fresh character getting bumped from 50k to 400k?
So all these arguments about "principals" or "fairness" are moot. This change was not meant to be fair, it was meant as a very small (and negligible) buff for new characters. Why this is negligible is argued around page 3.
So can we all just stop feeling sorry for ourselves (besides us, who already don't care about this change) and just be happy that CCP throws a bone towards the new players from time to time. I mean, they already have to sit through a garbage tutorial system and cannot fly **** for ships.
I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:55:29 -
[136] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters? I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say: Yes. "Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question.
Correct syntax is either for or against.
Yes/no is not an answer.
Maekchu wrote:I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter.
Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
PvE v PvP
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Celise Katelo
State War Academy Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:57:31 -
[137] - Quote
I once went on a date , we decided to get icecreams & went for a walk along the beach. Before i could even get a taste, the bloody icecream fell to the ground
Topic of conversation was so much better afterwards
P.s
I would like CCP to inject me some skill points in Agility, so i can be like the "Flash", because i didn't catch the icecream before it hit the ground.
EVEBoard ...Just over 26million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26372
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:03:32 -
[138] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date? Because it's better for the game.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Dersen Lowery
Scanners Live in Vain
1762
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:03:38 -
[139] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets. Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. The breach of the existing precedent is harmonized by applying the same boost equally throughout the entirety of the character base. The precedent of a common SP status quo remains intact, and the only remaining breached precedent is that of adding SP to the pool in the first place (as mitigated by the above, since everyone would get it).
If we're going to be fair, we should be entirely fair. Didn't new accounts used to start with nearly 1 million skill points before that was nerfed down hard? So it would only be fair to deduct that number of skill points from everyone else. Otherwise, you're just punishing all the newbies who started with 5,000 SP, or whatever it was that I started with.
Fair's fair. Right?
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2257
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:08:10 -
[140] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
Because they were created under a different set of rules. |
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
107
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:12:00 -
[141] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
Why did they remove SP loss and cost on clones after some time and not just have it on release? Why is it that only after a certain date, characters had access to Entosis links, T3Ds, jump fatique, a Bowhead, ..., etc.? Why can I not buy citadels now, it is unfair that someone down the line can just buy it instead of having to buy a normal POS? Why do my feet smell more now, than they did when I just showered?
Did you really think your question through? Things change. You are basically asking, why CCP didn't plan for some change in the future that haven't happened yet. Do you see how absurd that question even is?
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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
54
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:12:31 -
[142] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Val'Dore wrote:A few years back, you could roll a character with over 1 million sp. So it changes, get over it. Not true.
Actually it is. The expansion which added the third bloodline to each race had a change where every new character created got at least one level 5 skill, which gave them over 1mil sp out of the box at the start. I used it to create a few alts with science 5 for research/invention stuff. I still have them on inactive accounts.
So the precedent was actually already set to not update existing players when a change is made to the new player creation. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
108
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:20:28 -
[143] - Quote
And before you reply with "Then they shouldn't do the change" or "They should just give all players 350k SP".
Then you need to consider this change is not meant to benefit all players. It is only meant to benefit newly created characters.
CCP Rise wrote:The goal here is to get new players over as many early barriers to gameplay as possible. By throwing in a whole bunch of prereqs and adding to the basic support skill amounts we are hoping new players have faster access to a wider range of activities right out of the box. At some point in time, someone will not be a newly created character. Once you are not a "new player" anymore, you are not meant to benefit from this change, because you have had time to make up that difference in SP as argued before in this thread.
I feel like I'm repeating myself. |
Salvos Rhoska
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:35:15 -
[144] - Quote
There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. No one is disenfranchised in that. It is not arbitrary, its universal. Precedent is maintained, as SP status quo remains equal.
New characters get to invest the + SP for more functionality earlier on. Old characters, who never had that, get it retroactively, in equity, for their own functionality.
The precedent of raising new character SP base alone is far more dangerous than that of raising everyones.
Raising the SP universally does not harm new characters or old in relation to each other, in either direction. They remain equidistant, and since the impteus is not to narrow the gap between new and old anyways, this remains a nonissue.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, this will generate community hype and return lost players to the game, cos we are all SP whores.
There is no rational argument against making the SP boost universal. Why should existing characters not also benefit equally?
PvE v PvP
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
109
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:43:30 -
[145] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. No one is disenfranchised in that. It is not arbitrary, its universal. Precedent is maintained, as SP status quo remains equal.
New characters get to invest the + SP for more functionality earlier on. Old characters, who never had that, get it retroactively, in equity, for their own functionality.
The precedent of raising new character SP base alone is far more dangerous than that of raising everyones.
Raising the SP universally does not harm new characters or old in relation to each other, in either direction. But that would defeat the goal of the change. If you give out 350k SP to all players, then you benefit ALL players and not just "new players" as the change was meant to benefit.
If they would hand out 350k SP to all players, then it can indeed be argued why implement this change at all, since nothing has changed besides raising the SP amount for all characters in the game. Nothing has been gained or lost. The state of the game does not change, besides the nominal value of your SP sheet.
CCP are not trying to maintain the status quo. They are trying to make a change that will benefit "new players" and them alone.
Yes, there is no "harm" in applying 350k to all characters. But there is also no point in doing so. There is no purpose to such a change. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26372
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:44:40 -
[146] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. GǪexcept that arbitrarily handing out SP sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:46:57 -
[147] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. No one is disenfranchised in that. It is not arbitrary, its universal. Precedent is maintained, as SP status quo remains equal.
New characters get to invest the + SP for more functionality earlier on. Old characters, who never had that, get it retroactively, in equity, for their own functionality.
The precedent of raising new character SP base alone is far more dangerous than that of raising everyones.
Raising the SP universally does not harm new characters or old in relation to each other, in either direction.
I would have to agree with you here ,This much means nothing to older players but for newer players every sp counts and is very important
Edit - This benefits brand new players and newer players how can it be wrong ? Why exclude newer players and just focus brand new we want to keep and improve the game for both |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:51:15 -
[148] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: There is no rational argument against making the SP boost universal. Why should existing characters not also benefit equally?
There is a perfectly rational argument against handing out a universal SP boost that have been argued and repeated for over 8 pages now.
But if you choose to either ignore the argument or not understand it. Then yes, in your mind the argument is non-existent.
You could take the stance of disagreement to the arguments presented to you, then you in turn would improve your own argumentation, based on what has been said. Then the debate goes on and on.
However, claiming that no rational counter argument has been presented is just ridiculous. |
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:51:19 -
[149] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:But that would defeat the goal of the change. If you give out 350k SP to all players, then you benefit ALL players and not just "new players" as the change was meant to benefit.e.
It does not defeat the goal. The goal is adding more immediate training options and subsequent functionality to new characters.
Adding 350k to every other existing character does not contradict nor rescind that. It does not defeat, impair or detract from that goal whatsoever.
What it does do, however, is equitably maintain the SP status quo, and fairness towards characters created before.
There is no rational reason not to make the 350k a universal increase.
PvE v PvP
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Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:59:57 -
[150] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. GǪexcept that arbitrarily handing out SP sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent.
You falsely ascribe the quality "arbitrary" to the universal 350k boost.
It could, according to your logic, be far more validly applied to the notion of "arbitratily handing out SP ONLY to a certain, not yet even existing, character base, sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent".
That which makes the 350k boost to new characters created after a certain date, which excludes it from critique as arbitrary, is its purpose. That of increasing opportunities and functionality for immediately new characters.
Inline with that, that which excludes applying the boost universally to ALL characters, retroactively and in all perpetuity, from critique as "arbitrary", is also its purpose. That of maintaining the SP status quo, equity towards and equality of characters in this game environment.
PvE v PvP
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:01:41 -
[151] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Maekchu wrote:But that would defeat the goal of the change. If you give out 350k SP to all players, then you benefit ALL players and not just "new players" as the change was meant to benefit.e. It does not defeat the goal. The goal is adding more immediate training options and subsequent functionality to new characters. Adding 350k to every other existing character does not contradict nor rescind that. It does not defeat, impair or detract from that goal whatsoever. What it does do, however, is equitably maintain the SP status quo, and fairness towards characters created before. There is no rational reason not to make the 350k a universal increase. See, this is here where you are wrong. Whether you give out SP to only new players or to all players is important to determinate the purpose of the change.
Consider the following scenario: We want to help the poor by giving them $1M. If you only give it to people who already only have 1$, they will benefit from this change. If you however give $1M to everyone on the planet, everything will adjust to the new level of nominal capital in the system. Nothing is changed besides nominal values. The poor will still be as poor, however this time they will have $1M instead of $1.
It is the same that happens here. If you give all players an additional 350k SP, then yes. New players have an additional amount of SP, but so do every other character. Nothing is changed, besides the nominal value of SP points in the game. Nothing is really changed.
This in turn defeats the goal of only helping the "new players".
This is still the same point that has been argued before by others and me. I hope, that this time I have painted a clear enough picture for you to actually see the argument. Instead of claiming its non-existence. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26373
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:08:00 -
[152] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You falsely ascribe the quality "arbitrary" to the universal 350k boost. No, I correctly ascribe it to a distribution that follows no reason.
Quote:That of maintaining the SP status quo, equity towards and equality of characters in this game environment. That is pretty much the exact opposite of why new characters get a skill boost. It's the same as the previous times they have done this type of change GÇö it was never harmful, it was always very specific, and this instance does not set any precedent on that front.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:15:34 -
[153] - Quote
Maekchu:
You are presuming that all players already have $1 million.
They dont.
This discussion, overall, is quite concerning.
People seem to have a very subjective understanding of what is equitable and equal.
This is not a matter of ingame competition, which, rightly so, is resolved by its internal conflict by each participant.
This is an externally enforced matter which reflects upon every character in the game in terms of equality and equity.
How do you justify to a player that created his character 1 month ago, and who has been playing the game since then, that he doesnt deserve the same 350k boost as a character created 1 month after him?
Its a pointless inequality.
Whereas applying the 350k to all characters, past present and future, does not rescind nor impair the boost to new players, nor anyone else.
The SP status quo remains constant. All characters remain equidistant, according to theit existing SP and investment. It harms no one and nothing.
The new characters get their boost, which makes it possible to explore more functionality, earlier. The older characters get the same, for the same purpose.
Everyone is happy, everyone benefits. NOBODY loses anything. More content and opportunity is created, and most importantly, NO SYSTEMIC INEQUALITY is introduced.
PvE v PvP
|
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:18:16 -
[154] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:You falsely ascribe the quality "arbitrary" to the universal 350k boost. No, I correctly ascribe it to a distribution that follows no reason
I pointed out and expressed reasons.
Ignoring them does not negate them.
PvE v PvP
|
Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1124
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:29:55 -
[155] - Quote
I think the argument about X number of skill points is completely beside the point. The intent wasn't to hand out some specific and arbitrary number of points to new players. The intent was to give new players a wider array of options starting out. Instead of thinking of it as 350,000 skill points to do what they want with, think of it as level 3 of gunnery or something.
Let's pretend that you already have gunnery to 3. What do you want CCP to do? Give you gunnery lvl 3 again? It's no use to you. You've already got it. If you've been training for more than a week, you've made your decisions and the skill ranks being handed out to new players is equivalent of what you spent your first week on.
The point here is also not to buff new players with respect to older players. The point is that CCP has looked at things and decided it doesn't make the best sense for new players to spend the first week training the things that almost everyone should spend the first week training. It's the baseline changing. Just like it has in the past.
There was a time in the past when there were learning skills in the game that it was highly advantageous to be Caldari Achura. That advantage was taken away, I think at the same time learning skills were taken away. But the rest of the people who were not Caldari/Achura were not given a reimbursement to make of years of inferior attributes.
The baseline was simply changed. Just like it's changing now. If you equalize this change, people won't stop there. They'll bring the torches and pitchforks to the forum and burn Jita to the ground until every past baseline shift has been reimbursed to all players from the beginning of time.
CCP needs the freedom to make these changes from time to time. They can't reimburse across the board for this without giving up that freedom.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:31:04 -
[156] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Maekchu:
You are presuming that all players already have $1 million.
They dont.
This discussion, overall, is quite concerning.
People seem to have a very subjective understanding of what is equitable and equal.
This is not a matter of ingame competition, which, rightly so, is resolved by its internal conflict by each participant.
This is an externally enforced matter which reflects upon every character in the game in terms of equality and equity.
How do you justify to a player that created his character 1 month ago, and who has been playing the game since then, that he doesnt deserve the same 350k boost as a character created 1 month after him?
Its a pointless inequality.
Whereas applying the 350k to all characters, past present and future, does not rescind nor impair the boost to new players, nor anyone else.
The SP status quo remains constant. All characters remain equidistant, according to theit existing SP and investment. It harms no one and nothing.
The new characters get their boost, which makes it possible to explore more functionality, earlier. The older characters get the same, for the same purpose.
Everyone is happy, everyone benefits. NOBODY loses anything. More content and opportunity is created, and most importantly, NO SYSTEMIC INEQUALITY is introduced. Nobody loses anything and everyone benefits. But the purpose would be lost. If everyone benefits, then what is the change supposed to change?
You keep arguing to keep the SP increase universal cause "equality". But this change is not meant to benefit everyone.
It has already been clearly specified what is a new character in this case. Namely, any character created within 2 weeks of the Vanguard release. Only these characters and any future character is meant to benefit from this change.
This change is NOT meant to make everyone happy. It is NOT meant to preserve the status quo, since preserving the status quo would change nothing, thus resulting in a change with no purpose. |
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:43:56 -
[157] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Nobody loses anything and everyone benefits. But the purpose would be lost. If everyone benefits, then what is the change supposed to change?. I already speficially answered exactly this.
The PURPOSE of adding 350k to the starting SP of new character, is to increase their access to opportunities and functionality.
The PURPOSE is NOT to shorten thr gap between these new characterd, and characters created 1 day earlier, or 10 years earlier.
NOTHING in making the 350k boost universal, contradicts, countermands, rescinds, mitigates, reduces or negates that new characters will STILL have that 350k boost, and STILL have more access to immedate opportunities and functionality, as is the PURPOSE.
EXCLUSIVELY adding 350k to new characters after a certain date, however, is a systemic inequality towards anyone who created their character before that date.
Applying the 350k boost universally creates no problems, does not negate the advantage to new characters as was its purpose insofar as that, and creates no systemic inequality.
Would you like to discuss this in voice? It seems written language is failing here. PM me if so and Ill arrange it.
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26375
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:50:15 -
[158] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I pointed out and expressed reasons. No. You invented a reason GÇö one that has nothing to do with why new players are given 350k additional SP. That's what makes it arbitrary. In trying to justify a change you'd like to see, you amply demonstrate why it shouldn't.
New players are given an SP boost to create a smoother transition from an old NPE to a new one. This transition only affects and only applies to new characters, and even then, only to a select and limited few of them.
You, covetous of SP, then invents an unrelated, spurious, and completely unprecedented reason why you too should be given that SP even though you are not affected. This sets the dangerous and nonsensical precedent that, any time someone covets SP and can come up with a spurious and unconnected reason, they should just as arbitrarily be given SP.
Quote:The PURPOSE of adding 350k to the starting SP of new character, is to increase their access to opportunities and functionality. Wrong. The purpose of the 350k bonus is to smooth over the transition from an old NPE, where you only got 50k starting SP to a new one, where you get 400k. New players accidentally caught in this transition phase will thus not be unduly punished just because of their bad timing.
Quote:If CCP is going to raise the SP basis, there is no rational reason not to do so throughout all of its characters. Yes there is: it does not affect anyone except new players GÇö only new players need to be kept from ending up unwitting victims of poor timing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
23088
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:50:42 -
[159] - Quote
Has anyone posted one of these Ferret pics yet?
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:57:41 -
[160] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Maekchu wrote:Nobody loses anything and everyone benefits. But the purpose would be lost. If everyone benefits, then what is the change supposed to change?. I already speficially answered exactly this. The PURPOSE of adding 350k to the starting SP of new character, is to increase their access to opportunities and functionality. The PURPOSE is NOT to shorten thr gap between these new characterd, and characters created 1 day earlier, or 10 years earlier. NOTHING in making the 350k boost universal, contradicts, countermands, rescinds, mitigates, reduces or negates that new characters will STILL have that 350k boost, and STILL have more access to immedate opportunities and functionality, as is the PURPOSE. EXCLUSIVELY adding 350k to new characters after a certain date, however, is a systemic inequality towards anyone who created their character before that date. Applying the 350k boost universally creates no problems, does not negate the advantage to new characters as was its purpose insofar as that, and creates no systemic inequality. Would you like to discuss this in voice? It seems written language is failing here. PM me if so and Ill arrange it. I honestly don't care enough for your opinion to take up this discussion on comms.
I also don't think there would be any purpose for such discussion, just as there would be no purpose in raising the overall SP level across the board (see what I did there?).
We have both repeated the same points for the past 5-6 posts and have gotten nowhere. Instead of acknowledging the counter-arguments, albeit disagree with them, you instead claim their non-existence. Thus saying your argument is the only valid one, since there exists no counter-arguments to it. Your argument will always be the one that makes most sense, if you choose to ignore anything that counters its premise or discard them as nonsense.
This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time. |
|
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 15:58:43 -
[161] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:I pointed out and expressed reasons. No. You invented a reason GÇö one that has nothing to do with why new players are given 350k additional SP.
False, as I have not argued new characters should not be given 350k additional SP.
Furthermore, you are making a core mistake in referring to them as new players, rather than characters, which belies that you are not entirely understanding the concepts and specific issues involved here, as is reflected throughout your posts overall.
I have given several (not one, as agin you falsely represent) rational, supported reasons for why the SP boost should be rendered as universal, none of which you have addressed nor argued successfully.
Thats three strikes in one post. Up your game, Tippia, because this is starting to look very much like belligerence and intellectual dishonesty in argumentation purely for selfish reasons, rather than maintaing the impetus and consensus towards an objective discussion.
I shouldnt have to call you out on these. Its a waste of my time amd patience, and you shouldnt be perpetrating them in the first place. Take a few minutes and think about what you are doing.
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26376
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:04:23 -
[162] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:False So you changed your mind then? You are not saying that everyone who isn't a new character should be given 350k SP. Because that's the only way for what I said to be false.
But of course, you are arguing exactly that, so you did invent a reason that has nothing to do with why new characters are given that SP boost. You came up with one that serves a completely unrelated and self-serving purpose, and which does not target the group that actually needs to be seen to with this transition.
Quote:I have given rational, supported reasons for why the SP boost should be rendered as universal And it is spurious, nonsensical, unrelated to the actual change, and as a result completely arbitrary, which is why it sets such a hideously bad precedent.
Oh, and I retract my previous number. if you want to remove the systemic inequality based on character creation time, you actually have to hand out closer to 50 million SP GÇö I forgot learning skills and early attributes.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aquilan Aideron
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:06:46 -
[163] - Quote
Either the devs are out of touch with their own game or unwilling to address the issues
Skillpoints got little to do with whats killing the fun.
Reading the forum might help tho. |
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:19:52 -
[164] - Quote
Tippia:
1) You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players. That was false, and I have stated so correctly.
2) You claimed I had given one reason. That too was false, and I have stated so correctly.
3) You referred to new players, whereas this change affects new characters. That was false, and I stated so corrrectly.
4) You have not addressed or argued my points, rather, ignored them or superficially labelled them spurious, nonsensical or other such nonsense.. That too I stated correctly.
This is not going well for you. I shouldnt have to point out these obvious errors, as you shouldnt be making them in the first place. Im going to take a page out of your own book, and insist you acknowledge your mistakes before this discussion can proceed.
Maekchu:
"This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time."
Right, so because I extended the opportunity to discuss the issue in realtime over voice, in an attempt to promote our understanding of each others positions , since written language is failing us, means Im the one incapable of rational and calm argumentation.
I agree. Discussing with you, here or otherwise, is an utter waste of my time.
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26377
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:28:39 -
[165] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players. Incorrect. I claimed that you invented an argument for a change that had nothing to do with the reason new characters are getting an SP boost. Which you did.
Quote:You claimed I had given one reason. Incorrect. I claimed that there was no reason to do so. That's why you had to invent one, making the whole thing a dangerous precedent of arbitrarily handing out SP. Which it does.
Quote:You referred to new players So did you. So put a sock in it.
Quote:You have not addressed or argued my points Incorrect. I have explained exactly why they're either nonsensical or just outright inapplicable, and why, in the end, you're just trying to invent a reason why should get SP out of nowhere. And yes, you getting SP due to a change that has nothing to do with you is indeed spurious, nonsensical, and out of nowhere.
Let's put it this way: What does this patch change for you that warrants you being given 350k SP?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:31:06 -
[166] - Quote
This is why CCP should just not bother doing anything retroactively, then nobody gets upset. (Haha)
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:31:22 -
[167] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: "This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time."
Right, so because I extended the opportunity to discuss the issue in realtime over voice, in an attempt to promote our understanding of each others positions , since written language is failing us, means Im the one incapable of rational and calm argumentation.
I agree. Discussing with you, here or otherwise, is an utter waste of my time.
What? Had to go back and read my own post just to make sure, I actually wrote what I thought I wrote.
How did you conclude from that post, that it is because you offered to conduct the discussion on comms, that I deemed you irrational and unable to conduct a calm discussion featuring opposing views?
I clearly state, that it is because you don't acknowledge the existence of a counter-argument, even though it has been thrown at you for the past few pages of this thread. This is the realization, that made me conclude that any additional involvement past the occasional post, is just not worth the time.
If you cannot see the argument in written form, then I don't see how conveying the same point over a voice application would change this fact.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
428
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:03:27 -
[168] - Quote
There was once an old lady walking down a street when she saw a little boy crying.
Why are you crying? Asked the lady Mommy gave me a dollar to buy ice cream and I lost it. Replied the boy Oh don't cry over that. Said the old lady and handed the boy a dollar
The boy looked at the lady, took the dollar and started crying even more
Well why are you crying now? Asked the old lady a little frustrated Because if I hadn't lost my dollar I would have two now.
Tldr, welcome to eve, htfu. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:48:22 -
[169] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
1) You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players. That was false, and I have stated so correctly.
2) You claimed I had given one reason. That too was false, and I have stated so correctly.
3) You referred to new players, whereas this change affects new characters. That was false, and I stated so corrrectly.
4) You have not addressed or argued my points, rather, ignored them or superficially labelled them spurious, nonsensical or other such nonsense.. That too I stated correctly.
This is not going well for you. I shouldnt have to point out these obvious errors, as you shouldnt be making them in the first place. Im going to take a page out of your own book, and insist you acknowledge your mistakes before this discussion can proceed.
Maekchu:
"This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time."
Right, so because I extended the opportunity to discuss the issue in realtime over voice, in an attempt to promote our understanding of each others positions , since written language is failing us, means Im the one incapable of rational and calm argumentation.
I agree. Discussing with you, here or otherwise, is an utter waste of my time.
Please ignore the two of them. Their ship toasting has lowered the level of dicussion in this thread. The two of them have successfully given me cancer.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:48:35 -
[170] - Quote
This is what happens when you let vidya get in the way of installing gentoo. |
|
Sacu Shi
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
61
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:32:29 -
[171] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Basically no matter what CCP does there will be a group that wants more SP. The reality is as has been pointed out, many players have gotten or lost tons of SP before due to changes like this. It is minor by comparison, unfortunately. I don't even want the SP. But if they are going to give new players something that they didn't give everyone else then I think it is fair to compensate everyone. If it were up to me There would be no SP increase for new players. I don't think that is the way to make EVE more accessible. If that were the case then people would just buy high SP characters and then be l33t PVP pilots. Jonah Gravenstein wrote: The car you sold me 5 months ago is now available with 2 litres of fuel for the same price I paid, can I has?"
Yeah that'd go down well in real life.
Terrible attempt at an analogy. It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge." Coincidently that is what actually happens IRL. Whoops.
Actually, try this one.
"Sir, the car you bought 5 months ago with air conditioning as a -ú599 option, now comes with free air conditioning as standard."
Would you insist that the car manufacturer recalled every vehicle to have air conditioning fitted because that would be 'fair'?
I thought not. |
Mag's
the united
20262
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:02:03 -
[172] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:The two of them have successfully given me cancer. No, that would be your self entitlement and poor foruming skills.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1784
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:12:07 -
[173] - Quote
why are we arguing with this dude, I want 350k sp free! and on all my same account alts too because they didn't start with it either and they clearly need it! not a selfish request at all, think of the new players!
@ChainsawPlankto
|
Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:30:15 -
[174] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:why are we arguing with this dude, I want 350k sp free! and on all my same account alts too because they didn't start with it either and they clearly need it! not a selfish request at all, think of the new players!
No new player or newer player would argue against this ,only bitter vet who scream HTFU unless it's about entosis or some mechanic that makes it harder or less fun for them .
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2154
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:53:30 -
[175] - Quote
OP you should become an SA member and post this op there verbatim asap.
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2267
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:59:59 -
[176] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:why are we arguing with this dude, I want 350k sp free! and on all my same account alts too because they didn't start with it either and they clearly need it! not a selfish request at all, think of the new players!
ANyone who want theirr alt to get this for free should be directed to the Biomass button so they get it for free when they re-create their character. |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
633
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:03:59 -
[177] - Quote
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:OP you should become an SA member and post this op there verbatim asap.
OP I suggest not following this recommendation.
That forum strongly discourages independent thought. |
smokeAjoint
Unsettled Unsettled.
69
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:06:29 -
[178] - Quote
Pandora's Box
**-álegalize it**
|
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises The Volition Cult
79
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:39:23 -
[179] - Quote
goon /thread |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
489
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:41:26 -
[180] - Quote
deleted ....
Missed 8 pages of posts. Apologies. |
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
489
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:45:18 -
[181] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:
Please ignore the two of them. Their ship toasting has lowered the level of dicussion in this thread. The two of them have successfully given me cancer.
Considering what I had to endure surviving the form of cancer I had to deal with I do hope you experience exactly the same I have. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1036
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:47:07 -
[182] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters? I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say: Yes. "Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question. Correct syntax is either for or against. Yes/no is not an answer.
It's the answer to the question regardless.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:51:56 -
[183] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters? I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say: Yes. "Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question. Correct syntax is either for or against. Yes/no is not an answer. It's the answer to the question regardless.
Q: "Are you for or against abortion?"
A: "Yes. Derp"
Q: "Do you prefer red or green apples?"
A: "Yes. Herp".
Q: "How old are you?"
A: "Yes. Ferp."
Q: "Next!"
PvE v PvP
|
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1036
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:54:25 -
[184] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters? I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say: Yes. "Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question. Correct syntax is either for or against. Yes/no is not an answer. It's the answer to the question regardless. Q: "Are you for or against abortion?" A: "Yes. Derp" Q: "Next!"
Actually, that is also the answer to that question. You're catching on, but no need to derp yourself over it.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:00:46 -
[185] - Quote
Q: "Are you a human being or a potato?"
A: "Yes. Gerp"
PvE v PvP
|
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1036
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:05:14 -
[186] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Q: "Are you a human being or a potato?"
A: "Yes. Gerp"
You can't force a question on an answer, just because the answer is the correct one for other questions. The world isn't black or white, and if you asked if it were, I'd say 'Yes'.
You don't have to like an answer, if you truly wanted it, it wouldn't matter what it was.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:18:07 -
[187] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Q: "Are you a human being or a potato?"
A: "Yes. Gerp" You can't force a question on an answer, just because the answer is the correct one for other questions. The world isn't black or white, and if you asked if it were, I'd say 'Yes'. You don't have to like an answer, if you truly wanted it, it wouldn't matter what it was.
Im at a loss for words to describe how utterly wrong you are, and how contrary your position is to what language is, and what its purpose is.
Ask me a question, any question, and I will demonstrate.
PvE v PvP
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
633
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:28:26 -
[188] - Quote
Val'Dore is correct |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12038
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:38:24 -
[189] - Quote
its at this point in the thread that it becomes apparent that salvos is in reality a muppet and not worth engaging further on this topic
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
Salvos Rhoska
1514
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:38:44 -
[190] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:You can't force a question on an answer, just because the answer is the correct one for other questions. Try that in an examination sometime.
Val'Dore wrote: The world isn't black or white, and if you asked if it were, I'd say 'Yes'.
So you say the world (though infact we where only tqlking about language), isnt black or white. But if I ask you if its black or white, you'd answer "yes"? Is that not blatantly contradictory, even disregarding the syntax makes no sense in the first place?
Val'Dore wrote:You don't have to like an answer, if you truly wanted it, it wouldn't matter what it was. What? Ofc I dont have to like the answer. So what? Thats my business. And I truly want an answer, I wont care what it is? Wth is that even supposed to mean?
PvE v PvP
|
|
Mag's
the united
20265
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 23:12:01 -
[191] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Val'Dore is correct Indeed. The answer was obviously yes.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
23098
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 00:16:24 -
[192] - Quote
Were on page 10! Time for MOAR FERRET!!!!
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Paranoid Loyd
7048
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 00:21:30 -
[193] - Quote
\o/
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
188
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Posted - 2015.09.26 02:06:57 -
[194] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters.
Yeah, there would be no harm at all.
I suspect CCP doesn't want to do it because the last time free sp was given for downtime things didn't appear to go smoothly for some people, which would have generated support tickets. So I'd say they're trying to avoid that this time.
Of course it would be fairer if everyone got it, not surprising some vets say otherwise it, wouldn't even really effect them at all.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3394
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 02:47:26 -
[195] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand the rest of us are saying that, on the scale of things, the 6 days worth of training is nothing.
Yeah, when you have 10s of millions of SP it looks like nothing. When you are just starting out it is a considerable difference.
It is called decreasing returns to scale. This change means nothing to me. My main has over 120 million SP. 350,000 extra SP means almost nothing because the marginal improvement in my characters ability to fly various ships is very, very small. This change though will let a new player get into a broader range of ships immediately (or when he has the ISK).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3394
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 02:50:28 -
[196] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters.
Yeah, there would be no harm at all. I suspect CCP doesn't want to do it because the last time free sp was given for downtime things didn't appear to go smoothly for some people, which would have generated support tickets. So I'd say they're trying to avoid that this time. Of course it would be fairer if everyone got it, not surprising some vets say otherwise it, wouldn't even really effect them at all.
Agreed. If they gave it too me, I might forget to distribute it for days even weeks. The butthurt coming from players older than me is amazing. Talk about needing to HTFU.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3397
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 03:05:25 -
[197] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters? I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say: Yes. "Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question. Correct syntax is either for or against. Yes/no is not an answer. Maekchu wrote:I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter. Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
Dude she is pointing out that Tippia can be impossible to argue with. You can present a nearly universally accepted concept and Tippia will say, "No, I do not agree that water is wet, because :reasons:." In short, Val'Dore is poking fun at Tippia...you just missed the joke.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 04:13:48 -
[198] - Quote
Tippia wrote:As an '07 player, I've been given somewhere in the region of 7M SP for free GÇö if a new player gets 350k more from the start (that are put into sensible skills), then booo hoooo. GǪI'll suppose I'll take those free SP as compensation for not having skilled Tippia for a year because I ran out of interesting skills to train.
A Year?? You should've trained all Supers or Titans.........just in case CCP actually makes them useful. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 04:22:58 -
[199] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I think he's arguing that at only 5 months in, he's still considered new.
He is still new.
If you've been playing eve for under 3 years, you're a n00b.
That's just how the game is.
Don't worry OP, in 2 years we'll be able to finally start playing EvE
I'll say that to be fair, CCP should give this 400k SP bonus to all players under a year old. Because like you said, they're still considered to be new.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3397
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 04:54:32 -
[200] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Tippia wrote:As an '07 player, I've been given somewhere in the region of 7M SP for free GÇö if a new player gets 350k more from the start (that are put into sensible skills), then booo hoooo. GǪI'll suppose I'll take those free SP as compensation for not having skilled Tippia for a year because I ran out of interesting skills to train. A Year?? You should've trained all Supers or Titans.........just in case CCP actually makes them useful.
Forget it, it's a Tippia post they often lack coherency or logic. For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
54
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Posted - 2015.09.26 06:50:57 -
[201] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Tippia wrote:As an '07 player, I've been given somewhere in the region of 7M SP for free GÇö if a new player gets 350k more from the start (that are put into sensible skills), then booo hoooo. GǪI'll suppose I'll take those free SP as compensation for not having skilled Tippia for a year because I ran out of interesting skills to train. A Year?? You should've trained all Supers or Titans.........just in case CCP actually makes them useful. Forget it, it's a Tippia post they often lack coherency or logic. For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent.
I'm yet to see a post by tippia with logic. Arguing with him is like bashing your head against a wall repeatedly.
The fact that his argument revolves around him being a older player and 350k being nothing to him shows how detached he actually is from reality.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
617
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Posted - 2015.09.26 11:41:52 -
[202] - Quote
lol still going.
look on the bright side though, if/when you need cyno/cloaky alts you'll save at least 20 hrs on each by starting with CPU management on IV.
forums. -áserious business.
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
14
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Posted - 2015.09.26 12:17:37 -
[203] - Quote
The ferret is from the sub family Mustelinae, one of the more diverse groups within order Carnivora. Weasles are closer to otters than other members of the same subfamily (Klaus-Peter Koepfli et al, 2008. http://synapsida.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/weasels-in-stone-mustelid-evolution.html).
Oh and why is no one demanding that CCP remove skill points from all characters in the game whenever they dropped the number of skill points for starting players? After all it is only fair and there is a principle at stake right?
On a more serious note, Glathull had a brilliant point from before actually, that seems to have been ignored.
Glathull wrote:I think the argument about X number of skill points is completely beside the point. The intent wasn't to hand out some specific and arbitrary number of points to new players. The intent was to give new players a wider array of options starting out. Instead of thinking of it as 350,000 skill points to do what they want with, think of it as level 3 of gunnery or something.
Let's pretend that you already have gunnery to 3. What do you want CCP to do? Give you gunnery lvl 3 again? It's no use to you. You've already got it. If you've been training for more than a week, you've made your decisions and the skill ranks being handed out to new players is equivalent of what you spent your first week on.
So perhaps everyone would be happier if CCP simply ensured everyone had their support skills trained to at least lvl 3? This would truly benefit new players without being a stealth buff to older players.
After all, this is about principle right? |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
661
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Posted - 2015.09.26 12:27:28 -
[204] - Quote
I'd like 350k SP.
Cutting out a newbies first week of obligatory skill training does not change the fact I spent that week myself getting those SP the hard way, with the limitations on hand and I still stuck with it. Giving 350k SP is a pretty token gesture to your existing playerbase who already support you.
If they don't, then so be it, but I will still point out that I did things the hard way too.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
14
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Posted - 2015.09.26 12:32:13 -
[205] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I'd like 350k SP.
Cutting out a newbies first week of obligatory skill training does not change the fact I spent that week myself getting those SP the hard way, with the limitations on hand and I still stuck with it. Giving 350k SP is a pretty token gesture to your existing playerbase who already support you.
If they don't, then so be it, but I will still point out that I did things the hard way too.
And I want those skill points back that I missed out on before there was a proper skill queue. Among other things.
There has to be a line, otherwise this becomes insane. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1045
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Posted - 2015.09.26 12:33:40 -
[206] - Quote
I want the skill points from my old mains.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
638
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Posted - 2015.09.26 14:09:39 -
[207] - Quote
Stop being so damn greedy.
We won't be making it much easier for new players by giving them that extra 350k worth of SP if everyone gets a free unallocated 350k as well, that doesn't narrow the gap at all. Only scoots it over to the right.
Think of the children!!!!
I'd support all accounts receiving these skills to the level new players will be getting if they don't already have them, but come on life-noobs, do the impossible and think about someone other than yourself for once. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point DARKNESS.
863
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 15:29:30 -
[208] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:nobody tell him about the 2013 battlecruiser racial skill change.
I had BCV and Dessie V before both changes. Oh man, best level V's I ever trained.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2015.09.26 15:30:14 -
[209] - Quote
Corvois wrote:There has to be a line, otherwise this becomes insane.
My understanding is that several million sp has been disbursed to the community already due to previous skill changes. So this would fall behind that line, wherever you want to draw it. |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2015.09.26 19:29:13 -
[210] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I'd like 350k SP.
Cutting out a newbies first week of obligatory skill training does not change the fact I spent that week myself getting those SP the hard way, with the limitations on hand and I still stuck with it. Giving 350k SP is a pretty token gesture to your existing playerbase who already support you.
If they don't, then so be it, but I will still point out that I did things the hard way too.
Since when has training any skill in EVE been hard? |
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12064
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 19:43:32 -
[211] - Quote
A newbro Catsnake rolling around in his 350k New sp!
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2015.09.26 20:13:49 -
[212] - Quote
Thank you sir for keeping this important message visible atop the first page. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26389
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 21:15:45 -
[213] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:A Year?? You should've trained all Supers or Titans.........just in case CCP actually makes them useful. Like I said, I ran out of interesting skills to train.
Teckos Pech wrote:For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent. It was ok because, rather than set a precedent, it followed the dictum of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it afterGÇ¥. I.e. nothing was gained, and nothing was lost (actually, something was lost: you could fit less ability in a clone, but that's so minor that no-one particularly cared).
This as opposed to randomly handing out 350k SP just because someone wanted it, especially since the characters in question didn't lose anything and weren't victims of poor timing. Arbitrary handouts would indeed set a bad precedent.
Johnny Riko wrote:Arguing with him is like bashing your head against a wall repeatedly.
The fact that his argument revolves around him being a older player and 350k being nothing to him shows how detached he actually is from reality. Actually, both of those show what an illiterate badposter you are. Your strawman has nothing to do with my argument, and the reason you feel like you're bashing your head against a wall is because not having a coherent argument gets you nowhere GÇö said headbashing parallels the futility of that (complete lack of) effort quite neatly.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Sylveria Relden
94
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:25:16 -
[214] - Quote
*shrugs* the amount of skillpoints given to the newer players really doesn't mean much for older players- but I'd say that the simplest way to even it out would be just give everyone the same amount across the board when it's implemented, then only to new players afterward.
Personally the amount wouldn't really mean much, but it would resolve a lot of griping, I suppose.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:38:52 -
[215] - Quote
Arbitrary is a good word. It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification, all of which were met with proportional sp refunds if not new skills in excess of legacy sp count. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2538
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:48:21 -
[216] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Arbitrary is a good word. It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification, all of which were met with proportional sp refunds if not new skills in excess of legacy sp count. Except previous skill modifications only awarded free SP when a skill was REMOVED. Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
The part where you are being confused is CCP's policy of 'if you could fly/use it before you can fly/use it now. So any time CCP changed the skill requirements for an item, ala the Battlecruiser skill change to racial skills, they made sure people could still fly the same Battlecruisers after the change as before. But those people did not gain any NEW abilities. Bolded to make sure you see the difference between 'More SP' that simply let the person do what they could before, and 'More SP' that gives a person a new ability they couldn't do before the change. |
Sylveria Relden
95
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:50:55 -
[217] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Arbitrary is a good word. It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification, all of which were met with proportional sp refunds if not new skills in excess of legacy sp count. Except previous skill modifications only awarded free SP when a skill was REMOVED. Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
Agreed, however, if they applied it across the board equally to everyone- how would it be unfair to anyone moving forward?
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
159
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:51:42 -
[218] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
Can you cite an example? |
Sylveria Relden
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 21:53:39 -
[219] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Key word there, Removed. If a skill got turned to something else, no SP, if it got made less effective, no SP.
Can you cite an example?
Actually, the base skills for the original implant system are a good example of this.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2538
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 22:10:58 -
[220] - Quote
Zihao wrote: Can you cite an example?
Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26389
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:25:21 -
[221] - Quote
Zihao wrote:It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification That would indeed be arbitrary, but as luck would have it, it is trivially easy to distinguish the Vanguard changes from the historical cases when they've handed out SP after a skill change.
The most prominent feature that distinguishes Vanguard from those historical cases is that no skills are being changed in Vanguard.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12067
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 23:31:51 -
[222] - Quote
Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26390
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:43:55 -
[223] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is. Some read Malcanis' Law as something that must be obeyed rather than as an observation on a pattern, it seems.
Oh, and alsoGǪ
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Can you cite an example? Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. Probably the best example: Ethnic Relations GåÆ Diplomatic Relations.
An old skill was replaced by a new one, providing a vastly different bonus to an an entirely unrelated mechanic. No SP.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Sylveria Relden
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 23:45:38 -
[224] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is.
Agreed, the amount is pointless to established players, however I don't think they're going to stop complaining until it's resolved somehow.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
14
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:41:18 -
[225] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Corvois wrote:There has to be a line, otherwise this becomes insane. My understanding is that several million sp has been disbursed to the community already due to previous skill changes. So this would fall behind that line, wherever you want to draw it.
Care to cite an example where this was done without something that had been trained being removed or which is not done in line with ensuring people maintain an ability they used to have before a change?
Also, if in future starting skill points are dropped back for some reason, would you also agree that your skill points be reduced as well?
Though personally myself and my alts would all love the free SP, you know, just to help out the new players, and not because of any form of self interest.
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
15
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:48:15 -
[226] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is. Some read Malcanis' Law as something that must be obeyed rather than as an observation on a pattern, it seems. Oh, and alsoGǪ Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Can you cite an example? Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. Probably the best example: Ethnic Relations GåÆ Diplomatic Relations. An old skill was replaced by a new one, providing a vastly different bonus to an an entirely unrelated mechanic. No SP.
And the requirements to get into an Orca. All of those PVP players training into high level mining skills (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010). Slightly different, but another example illustrating CCP's consistent policy regarding SP. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 00:57:42 -
[227] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:nobody tell him about the 2013 battlecruiser racial skill change. I had BCV and Dessie V before both changes. Oh man, best level V's I ever trained.
Yep. But since most people that had more SP than me also had those skills trained also got the same benefit, relatively speaking it did nothing in terms of closing a gap.
Here is a very subtle lesson from economics: it is the relative relationship that matters. Absolute relationships can be important, but in the end they determine very, very little.
I'd argue the same is true for SP as well. Early on 350,000 vs. 50,000 is a huge difference due to diminishing returns. Later on it does not matter.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 00:59:29 -
[228] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent. It was ok because, rather than set a precedent, it followed the dictum of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it afterGÇ¥. I.e. nothing was gained, and nothing was lost (actually, something was lost: you could fit less ability in a clone, but that's so minor that no-one particularly cared). This as opposed to randomly handing out 350k SP just because someone wanted it, especially since the characters in question didn't lose anything and weren't victims of poor timing. Arbitrary handouts would indeed set a bad precedent.
So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
622
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:05:53 -
[229] - Quote
Not sure what's more depressing, the amount of greediness surrounding these 350,000 SP or the fact that not too long ago players actually demanded SP in return for the several hours the server was down that night CCP Dev's nearly pulled an all-nighter to bring the server back up in stable fashion. Actually, the worst of it may be that I'm not really surprised.
The extra SP is meant for fresh new players to get a small head start on their first few moments in Eve, not be a freebie for anyone because, "What about us?" No offense towards the OP, hell even 5 months is new, but CCP is trying to give players just starting their first 5 days with, for them at least, a nice little pick-me-up. For the rest of us, don't worry; 350k is merely pennies compared to what you already have in the first place, and most of us have already unintentionally (and often negligently) wasted far more on irrelevant or nowadays obsolete skill choices ourselves.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:07:15 -
[230] - Quote
Sylveria Relden wrote:*shrugs* the amount of skillpoints given to the newer players really doesn't mean much for older players- but I'd say that the simplest way to even it out would be just give everyone the same amount across the board when it's implemented, then only to new players afterward.
Personally the amount wouldn't really mean much, but it would resolve a lot of griping, I suppose.
After a year of continuous training with attributes roughly equal one should have around 16 million SP. 350,000 is about 2.2% of 16 million. I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. If you want to make it 1% make it 2 years and 3 months. Anyone complaining at that point probably does need to HTFU. Given the current date that means anyone born before June 2012...which includes Tippia.
Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26391
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:44:09 -
[231] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility. Too bad it only happened in your head.
No, it was free. You're just confused because you fail to separate the concept of SP and the concept of ability.
Quote:I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. An even better cut-off is 2 weeks, since that means it is really hard be in a spot where you'd lose anything in the NPE switch-over. A year is so hugely outside the realm of the NPE that it becomes outright ridiculous to suggest that they are in any way affected by this change. After all, that's what we're actually talking about here: we're switching from an old NPE layout to a new one, which means some new characters may accidentally be caught below the intended baseline for no reason other than bad timing. The hand-out to Gëñ14-day old characters smoothes out this transition and pretty much completely eliminates any chance of that happening.
Extending it to a year makes no sense because anyone who's below the new baseline a full year after the character birth are actually better off nuking that character and rolling a new one.
Quote:Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on. The funny thing is that older players seem to be the least butthurt by it. This is not very surprising since the NPE doesn't really affect them in any way.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:52:03 -
[232] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility. Too bad it only happened in your head. No, it was free. You're just confused because you fail to separate the concept of SP and the concept of ability. Quote:I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. An even better cut-off is 2 weeks, since that means it is really hard be in a spot where you'd lose anything in the NPE switch-over. A year is so hugely outside the realm of the NPE that it becomes outright ridiculous to suggest that they are in any way affected by this change. After all, that's what we're actually talking about here: we're switching from an old NPE layout to a new one, which means some new characters may accidentally be caught below the intended baseline for no reason other than bad timing. The hand-out to Gëñ14-day old characters smoothes out this transition and pretty much completely eliminates any chance of that happening. Extending it to a year makes no sense because anyone who's below the new baseline a full year after the character birth are actually better off nuking that character and rolling a new one. Quote:Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on. The funny thing is that older players seem to be the least butthurt by it. This is not very surprising since the NPE doesn't really affect them in any way.
The older players are less butthurt. You have been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, now you reverse course and pretend it has been your position all along.
Whatever.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:56:05 -
[233] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Quote:You have been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, now you reverse course and pretend it has been your position all along. No. I've been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, and now I still am because he's still not affected by this change. WellGǪ I hope he's not affected by this change, because that would mean he has spent the last 5 months with an empty skill queue. And anyway, if that's the case, he's better off biomassing and recreating the character from scratch.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:59:45 -
[234] - Quote
I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:32 -
[235] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
So it's more akin to the skills being the same they've always been because, well, they haven't changed in any way.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12071
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:50 -
[236] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. Oh stop being so petty, you are coming off like a petulant child getting jealous and throwing a wobbeler at someone else's birthday. stop being so petty ffs.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3407
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:52 -
[237] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund.
I'd be fine with this, or even make the refund a declining function of time. My view is that at this point, I don't need much of an SP boost. But for a player less than a year old but outside the window of getting the SP boost it would be a bigger deal. Either way works for me.
At his point I'd recommend CCP take the path that pisses off the least number of players.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Sylveria Relden
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:08:56 -
[238] - Quote
I think it's great they're offering this to new players- I still remember fumbling around trying to figure out what to train and in what order, and then having to wait until it finished before I could grab the next skillbook to learn even the most basic stuff.
This will give them a good head start. Great job, CCP!
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:11:17 -
[239] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:At his point I'd recommend CCP take the path that pisses off the least number of players. Iow: just release the patch as planend.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:11:52 -
[240] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. Oh stop being so petty, you are coming off like a petulant child getting jealous and throwing a wobbeler at someone else's birthday. stop being so petty ffs.
To be perfectly honest McGriffin, I couldn't care less about the skillpoints. I just like the debate and I think I have the better argument. It's certainly better that your lazy ad hominem. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:17:20 -
[241] - Quote
Zihao wrote:[To be perfectly honest McGriffin, I couldn't care less about the skillpoints. I just like the debate and I think I have the better argument. Your argument is based on a complete misunderstanding of what is happening and why, and on what looks like a complete ignorance of NPE changes, skill changes, and SP reimbursement policies throughout the history of EVE.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:39:12 -
[242] - Quote
That's a compelling rebuttal, but could you explain the flaw in my argument instead of implying it is mistaken? My ignorance is nothing I've attempted to hide and if you're keen to give a history lesson, I am happy to be persuaded. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:47:16 -
[243] - Quote
Zihao wrote:That's a compelling rebuttal, but could you explain the flaw in my argument instead of implying it is mistaken? You mean like I did in the previous post?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:59:12 -
[244] - Quote
Yes, very much like that, but with a factual rebuttal of my learning skills corollary instead of the implication that all arguments from my person are invalid due to a historical handicap. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:01:33 -
[245] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Yes, very much like that, but with a factual rebuttal of my learning skills corollary You mean like I did in the previous post?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:02:35 -
[246] - Quote
Can you elaborate on what my "complete misunderstanding," is? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:08:10 -
[247] - Quote
Ahhh Tippia, continuing to demonstrate why she is not much more than the butt of forum jokes.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:08:12 -
[248] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Can you elaborate on what my "complete misunderstanding," is? You mean like I did in the previous post?
You think something is being (virtually) removed, when in fact everything stays exactly the same.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:09:38 -
[249] - Quote
To be more accurate, I said the case of removing something was more proximate to the situation than changing it's function. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:12:17 -
[250] - Quote
Zihao wrote:To be more accurate, I said the case of removing something was more proximate to the situation than changing it's function. GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
So it's more akin to the skills being the same they've always been because, well, they haven't changed in any way.
In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting. But of course, they do need them because the skills and their levels haven't been removed, altered, skipped, fiddled with or changed in any way whatsoever.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:16:52 -
[251] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total.
Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:18:54 -
[252] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. No, the reason is because we've seen these kinds of transitions before; we know the principles at play; and we aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Quote:Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. Seems you should take the time to actually read what we say rather than rely on strawman fallacies and similar nonsense.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:21:33 -
[253] - Quote
Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change.
Tippia wrote: In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting.
I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. In-fact you can find me arguing the contrary in previous threads on the subject matter. This is a debate only because I find the arguments opposed to be weak given what I've touch on above. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:22:59 -
[254] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums.
I'm sorry are you referring to me or Tippia? The first part appears to agree with me, but the second part leaves me wondering....how is a player with 2 million SP considered a "veteran".....?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:26:23 -
[255] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. Tippia wrote: In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting.
I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. In-fact you can find me arguing the contrary in previous threads on the subject matter. This is a debate only because I find the arguments opposed to be weak given what I've touch on above.
I everyone has a skill at 4 or higher, then in effect the SP for SP 4 and below have been removed. Given past precedent of "refunding such SP" then EVERYONE should be refunded those SP irrespective of age.
[/lawyer mode]
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:26:26 -
[256] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. I'm sorry are you referring to me or Tippia? The first part appears to agree with me, but the second part leaves me wondering....how is a player with 2 million SP considered a "veteran".....?
I'm not saying all veterans are the same as they're not.
I was replying to what Tippia wrote, not yourself. The reply to your reply.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:27:30 -
[257] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. No skills are being changed in Vanguard.
This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
Quote:I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. GǪnor did I say you did. I said that if things were changing the way you claimed, this thread wouldn't exist because there would be no additional SP for new characters. None would be required to fulfil the intent of the change.
Teckos Pech wrote:I everyone has a skill at 4 or higher, then in effect the SP for SP 4 and below have been removed. Given past precedent of "refunding such SP" then EVERYONE should be refunded those SP irrespective of age. The premise does not match reality, nor does it follow that this means the skill levels have been removed GÇö effectively or otherwise. There is also no precedent that would suggest that everyone should be refunded should such equality occur.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:30:30 -
[258] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums.
To which the corollary is that those who are put out by this change are only so because they feel like they are missing out on more free stuff.
Except this change is not about free stuff. It is about giving new players more options sooner. From CCP's perspective SP is just a way to keep track of the options a player has within certain mechanics in the game.
However if we were to take the 'catching up' reading of this many posters here have, then you could argue that from the perspective of a new player who would benefit from this change, giving it to those who have already had a 'few months head start' would make no difference.
In fact, those skill points given to a player a few months into the game would actually have a different value than it would to a fresh player. For a new player, it is the difference between actually having basic access to content, or being able to fit a ship. To a more established player it allows them to become more specialised and effective in a chosen role.
Ultimately the arguement from those who feel they are missing out is one from self interest, so I won't expect them to worry about the game's health or acknowledge what CCP is trying to accomplish if it makes it harder to argue for something that benefits them personally. Because greed and humans.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:30:37 -
[259] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. I'm sorry are you referring to me or Tippia? The first part appears to agree with me, but the second part leaves me wondering....how is a player with 2 million SP considered a "veteran".....? I'm not saying all veterans are the same as they're not. I was replying to what Tippia wrote, not yourself. The reply to your reply.
Ok...wasn't sure. Thanks for the clarification.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:36:16 -
[260] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zihao wrote:Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. No skills are being changed in Vanguard. This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
I don't see what that has to do with it.
They give sp for extended downtime, so they have the means to make it fair for everyone, yet they choose not to.
That doesn't make what they're doing right.
If they didn't have the means to do it fairly then I could understand them choosing the course of action that they are doing. Although I still think 350k is too small to make any real difference. |
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:37:04 -
[261] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No skills are being changed in Vanguard.
Moving up the initial value is a change and, as I explained, I believe that's more proximate to the precedent of removal qua "they cannot be trained hence on new characters," at least more so than "they remain but have a new purpose." Hence my suggestion the latter argument is weaker.
Tippia wrote: This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
I agree, what I've suggested is that, of the historical events I am presently aware of and we have discussed, the situation seems to better fit the situation of a pseudo-removal than a purpose shift. I believe we agree the latter is not the case. Your strongest argument, I believe is that there is no change practically, but I have explained above why I disagree.
Tippia wrote: I said that if things were changing the way you claimed, this thread wouldn't exist because there would be no additional SP for new characters. None would be required to fulfil the intent of the change.
I fully agree that if there were no effective change, as you claim, that this thread would not exist. ;)
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Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
106
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:43:04 -
[262] - Quote
There is an easy solution for anyone feeling they are hard done by in this:
- biomass your character and start a new one
You'll get the new skill arrangement and have nothing to complain about (I wish).
This thread is a new level of entitlement. Biomass or HTFU. Even without gaining this one week of skillpoints, you'll still be in front of anyone gaining them (<2 weeks old) or starting fresh. You'll still be a vet by comparison. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:44:37 -
[263] - Quote
Corvois wrote: To which the corollary is that those who are put out by this change are only so because they feel like they are missing out on more free stuff.
Which seems about as valid as the lackadaisical moral hazard argument when it's not entirely clear what the precedent is in this situation. I decline to accept either as morally superior.
Corvois wrote: Except this change is not about free stuff. It is about giving new players more options sooner. From CCP's perspective SP is just a way to keep track of the options a player has within certain mechanics in the game.
Absolutely true, except it is free stuff for new players because that's two fewer weeks subscription they're paying before they access these new skills.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:47:32 -
[264] - Quote
Avvy wrote:I don't see what that has to do with it. What what has to do with it?
Quote:They give sp for extended downtime, so they have the means to make it fair for everyone, yet they choose not to. They are making it fair: they are ensuring that bad timing does not screw you out of getting the new NPE baseline. If the NPE does not apply to you, then this change is not relevant to you and you can't be screwed over regardless.
They could do it unfairly and just say that, GÇ£Oh, you made a character after we released the patch notes? Tough luck.GÇ¥ Instead, they went beyond fair and added a buffer so that even exceptionally slow trainers would reach the new baseline. Everyone else has already reached the baseline and is therefore not party to any kind of fairness argument.
Zihao wrote:Moving up the initial value is a change and, as I explained, I believe that's more proximate to the precedent of removal qua "they cannot be trained hence on new characters," at least more so than "they remain but have a new purpose." Hence my suggestion the latter argument is weaker. A change in the new character skill set is not a skill change. No skills are changed in Vanguard. They are all exactly the same as they were before the patch. They do not have a new purpose. There are no change in the mechanics. No-one is losing any ability.
Since no skills are being changed; since no ability is lost; since no skills are removed, there is nothing that would warrant an SP reimbursement.
Quote:I agree, what I've suggested is that, of the historical events I am presently aware of and we have discussed, the situation seems to better fit the situation of a pseudo-removal than a purpose shift GǪexcept that nothing is being removed. Pseudo or otherwise. Every skill and every level remains exactly the same; every ability unlocked remains exactly the same; every SP trained is retained and does not change in value or functionality.
So there is nothing that would warrant an SP reimbursement.
Quote:I fully agree that if there were no effective change, as you claim, that this thread would not exist Then you don't agree.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:51:57 -
[265] - Quote
I believe you've disregarded pseudo too quickly and I believe under a more extreme case we would agree that changes of zero bar are in-fact changes.
Hypothetically: If vanguard made all subcapital ship skills default trained to level V, would we be arguing that nothing had changed since no new skills were added or taken away and their functions remained constant? (Genuinely curious) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:03:52 -
[266] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I believe you've disregarded pseudo too quickly and I believe under a more extreme case we would agree that changes of zero bar are in-fact changes. It is a change, just not to a skill. In particular, it's not a change that in any way equates to a skill removal or a loss of ability or a removal of a game mechanic. Thus: there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement.
Practically, on Tuesday, some characters will gain skill levels you have. Some may even gain skill levels you don't have. Neither is equivalent to you losing the skills and abilities you have, and all related game mechanics keep operating the same as they did the day before. Therefore, there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement, same as on every other day when this has happened, is happening, and will keep happening.
If you're curious about your hypothetical, PM one of the devs.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
17
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:09:37 -
[267] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Corvois wrote: To which the corollary is that those who are put out by this change are only so because they feel like they are missing out on more free stuff.
Which seems about as valid as the lackadaisical moral hazard argument when it's not entirely clear what the precedent is in this situation. I decline to accept either as morally superior. Corvois wrote: Except this change is not about free stuff. It is about giving new players more options sooner. From CCP's perspective SP is just a way to keep track of the options a player has within certain mechanics in the game.
Absolutely true, except it is free stuff for new players because that's two fewer weeks subscription they're paying before they access these new skills. Ima GoodGirl wrote: This thread is a new level of entitlement. Biomass or HTFU.
Thanks for keeping the thread bumped. Hopefully we can bring the debate to a close before you lose any more sleep over it.
Which makes this a business decision made by CCP that I expect they believe will improve the NPE. This decision is not about any other class of player, and it's impact on them is non existent. After this change they can still do the things that they were able to before. The only difference is some kind of perceived and tenuous opportunity cost. It also bears repeating that CCP has been very consistent in how they deal with SP.
The facts can be summerised as: - CCP makes a change for one class of player in line with their business goals - The change partially reverses an element of the Apocrypha expansion. - Other classes of players completely unaffected either positively or negatively are unhappy with this
I am unclear about where this becomes a problem.
You train something, you get it. If the skill changes in some way, you will still have it. If a change affects what you can do in the game, then they will seek to ensure that the thing you did in the past you can still continue to do.
Changing the NPE is not a reason to hand out SP. The value of SP to a new player and to an established player is different. An established player has also received other benefits from the time they have already spent playing, such as the in game rewards linked to their activity. Ergo, an argument that they have somehow 'wasted money' is specious and self serving.
And it has been mentioned, this has been done before, and at one time in the opposite direction. I was even able to find a reference (http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/02/new-eve-online-characters-will-initially-train-skills-twice-as-f/).
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:15:27 -
[268] - Quote
Tippia wrote:In particular, it's not a change that in any way equates to a skill removal or a loss of ability or a removal of a game mechanic. Thus: there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement.
I disagree. It is entirely plausible that characters more than two weeks old not have a skill which becomes a default, which is a loss by reference to the new standard. I don't argue that this is sure to warrant disbursed sp, but I believe it is more like the situations in which sp was disbursed than those in which it wasn't.
Tippia wrote: Practically, on Tuesday, some characters will gain skill levels you have. Some may even gain skill levels you don't have. Neither is equivalent to you losing the skills and abilities you have, and all related game mechanics keep operating the same as they did the day before. Therefore, there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement, same as on every other day when this has happened, is happening, and will keep happening.
If you're curious about your hypothetical, PM one of the devs.
I would think "practically," was a poor choice of words. If we observe the scenario in which older character suddenly does not have a skill which new character defaults with, he has "practically," lost something, to the extent that there is a new standard which even brand-new characters meet which he does not. I would have gone with "literally."
I will take your lack of opinion on that hypothetical as a kindly nod to my point. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26396
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:30:36 -
[269] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I disagree. It is entirely plausible that characters more than two weeks old not have a skill which becomes a default, which is a loss by reference to the new standard. GǪand yet, they lose nothing. They still have all the skills and abilities they trained for and unless they ****** up something fierce, they have at least twice the baseline SP. Therefore, they are not negatively affected by the NPE switch-over, especially not in a way that warrants an SP reimbursement.
On the utterly minute chance that they do have less than the baseline, they still come out ahead: they can just biomass and start a new character and get more than they had before. It is impossible to lose.
Quote:I would think "practically," was a poor choice of words. If we observe the scenario in which older character suddenly does not have a skill which new character defaults with, he has "practically," lost something No, he hasn't. In practice, everything is the same as before the patch GÇö he has the same skills and abilities he had before and they all work the same as always. Everything his skills let him do in practice before, he can do in practice afterwards as well (Entosis Links and Festival Launchers aside). If he didn't have the skill, he didn't have the skill, so he didn't lose it or the abilities it unlocked.
If he absolutely, desperately wants to see it as an opportunity lost, he lost it a long time ago when he chose not to train that skill GÇö it has nothing to do with what happens on Tuesday. His choice, by the way, does not warrant a reimbursement. Something happening to someone else does not entitle him to anything, least of all SP GÇö only changes that actually happen to him, directly are cause for him getting reimbursed.
Quote:I will take your lack of opinion on that hypothetical as a kindly nod to my point. Don't. It'll cause you nothing but grief. Take it for exactly what I said or don't take it at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
109
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:40:44 -
[270] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Ima GoodGirl wrote: This thread is a new level of entitlement. Biomass or HTFU.
Thanks for keeping the thread bumped. Hopefully we can bring the debate to a close before you lose any more sleep over it. Yep. Entitled dickhead spotted.
Here, have this. Hopefully it helps:
http://youtu.be/VgvM7av1o1Q |
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 05:37:35 -
[271] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I would think "practically," was a poor choice of words. If we observe the scenario in which older character suddenly does not have a skill which new character defaults with, he has "practically," lost something, to the extent that there is a new standard which even brand-new characters meet which he does not. I would have gone with "literally." No, they haven't. The older character isn't losing skills which are now standard, they simply chose different ones to train.
The changes to starter skills is just to get rid of any "I'd love to do that, but I need to go find the skill book, afford the skill book, wait 15-30 min for the skill to train, and then get back to the career agent to finish the mission" moments. A 5 year, 5 month, or even 5 week character isn't restricted by those. They may have things they can't do, but at the 3M SP mark those things are left off your character sheet because you decided you didn't need them, not because you haven't had a chance to train them.
So very, very new characters are being given an SP grant because they haven't had the opportunity to negate all those NPE "hurry up and wait" moments. But if you've had enough time to work through those, then there's nothing left to give you.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if CCP just gave everybody half a billion SP and ended the entire stupid, time wasting farce. But I can see when a change isn't about the SP, and I'm not going to demand reimbursement for something that doesn't hurt anybody.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
169
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 05:55:09 -
[272] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, he hasn't. In practice, everything is the same as before the patch "In practice" doesn't preclude relative comparison.
Tippia wrote: If he absolutely, desperately wants to see it as an opportunity lost, he lost it a long time ago when he chose not to train that skill GÇö it has nothing to do with what happens on Tuesday.
I disagree. Most skills aren't trained or used in the first few months. Rolling them into the base represents a change in the marginal cost associated with a skill and that's about as valid as their apriori opportunity given the eventuality was unknown.
Tippia wrote: Take it for exactly what I said or don't take it at all.
You seemed rather explicitly opposed to discussing it, so that strongly implies you agree with my conclusion, else you would have done what you've proved quite willing to do here and respond at length. :)
Aerasia wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if CCP just gave everybody half a billion SP and ended the entire stupid, time wasting farce. But I can see when a change isn't about the SP, and I'm not going to demand reimbursement for something that doesn't hurt anybody.
Since it's gone a few pages without my repeating it: I'm not actually shilling for reimbursement and I don't feel bothered in the lest by this. I just got in on the debate because I felt it was being lazily argued against, I felt a plausible defense could be mounted, and Tippia has been a gracious sparring partner. |
Valkin Mordirc
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 06:50:33 -
[273] - Quote
This is entirely a self absorbed whine thread. It honestly doesn't surprise me that this happened. Glad to see it's only a few entitled douchebags that thinks if they whine enough and kick their feet they get what they want.
I really don't give a damn about the SP that's being added.
Well no. I like the idea.
But I don't think I deserve 350k of SP. Because I'm not a petty selfish narcissistic foul unbelievably ******** asshat with nothing better to do then run his mouth about how under entitled he is and how the world doesn't revole around his anus praising it on a daily basis with mountain spring water and a harem of women to give it complements on the hour every hour.
Really the best way to describe everyone that wants this parse amount of SP.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12075
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 07:30:31 -
[274] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. Time expended on these skills is therefor extraneous. Thus the case for similarity between learning skills and the associated refund. Oh stop being so petty, you are coming off like a petulant child getting jealous and throwing a wobbeler at someone else's birthday. stop being so petty ffs. To be perfectly honest McGriffin, I couldn't care less about the skillpoints. I just like the debate and I think I have the better argument. It's certainly better that your lazy ad hominem. No you don't have the better argument, you're jumping up and down in a shrill voice.
I at no point in this thread have done anything more than mock those of ye doing so and post a couple of ferret related content links
Tippia has been doing the arguing and has been more than adequate in chewing both of ye and the other kids before ye out. It's been entering watching ye try this without looking like children though genuinely it has so by all means carry on.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 10:47:44 -
[275] - Quote
Dear op,
entitlement much? You agreed to a deal to certain conditions when you made your char and you received exactly what you paid for, which was ~50k SP at that time, now there is a new deal (400k SP). If you bought something 5 months ago you are not entitled to some kind of refund if the item suddenly goes on a sale with a discount.
If you buy a new gaming rig and it goes on a sale in about 5 months time for 25% less no one in the entire world will pay you the difference because the same product is now offered cheaper.
tl:dr You received exactly what you paid for |
Salvos Rhoska
1522
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:25:31 -
[276] - Quote
There is no harm in applying the 350k boost universally.
Only benefit, for everyone, equally.
Especially as a universal application will pique interest of players currently away from the game, of all account ages, who have simply forgotten to return while doing other things. Not because they didnt like EVE, but simply because their attention was simply elsewhere during their sabbatical.
This a good opportunity to hit several birds with one stone.
Its not an entitlement issue, its one of pragmatic expedience.
PvE v PvP
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:31:45 -
[277] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k boost universally.
Only benefit, for everyone, equally.
Nor is there any harm in helping out the NPE with this gesture, if it really bothers you so much and you so dearly need them extra few sp just roll a brand new alt.
Edit.. Your are gaining quite the reputation for editing post's after the fact Salvos it is both very rude and extremely ignorant of you.
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:33:32 -
[278] - Quote
double post.
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:35:00 -
[279] - Quote
triple post fail edit
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
|
Salvos Rhoska
1522
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:35:28 -
[280] - Quote
Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k boost universally.
Only benefit, for everyone, equally. Nor is there any harm in helping out the NPE with this gesture, if it really bothers you so much and you so dearly need them extra few sp just roll a brand new alt.
Nobody is disputing helping NPE with this. NPE getting 350k sp boost does not bother me at all.
Adding 350k to all characters, past, present and after the change, future, does not rescind, redact nor diminish the 350k boost to NPE.
The question you should be asking, is why does making the 350k change universal bother YOU so much?
PvE v PvP
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:37:53 -
[281] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k boost universally.
Only benefit, for everyone, equally. Nor is there any harm in helping out the NPE with this gesture, if it really bothers you so much and you so dearly need them extra few sp just roll a brand new alt. Nobody is disputing helping NPE with this. NPE getting 350k sp boost does not bother me at all. Adding 350k to all characters, past, present and after the change, future, does not rescind, redact nor diminish the 350k boost to NPE. The question you should be asking, is why does making the 350k change universal bother YOU so much?
It does not bother me in the slightest, in fact I am more than happy with the NPE being enriched. It is to your whining only that I have responded and nothing else
Edit.. I see you have yet again gone back and edited a post after a response, are you really that feeble minded that you need to move goalpost's so as to justify your skriking ? Grow up man ffs GROW UP!!!
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
|
Salvos Rhoska
1522
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:41:38 -
[282] - Quote
Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k boost universally.
Only benefit, for everyone, equally. Nor is there any harm in helping out the NPE with this gesture, if it really bothers you so much and you so dearly need them extra few sp just roll a brand new alt. Nobody is disputing helping NPE with this. NPE getting 350k sp boost does not bother me at all. Adding 350k to all characters, past, present and after the change, future, does not rescind, redact nor diminish the 350k boost to NPE. The question you should be asking, is why does making the 350k change universal bother YOU so much? It does not bother me in the slightest, in fact I am more than happy with the NPE being enriched. It is to your whining only that I have responded and nothing else
What whining? Nobody is against adding 350k to new characters.
You are the one whining against a universal 350k boost, when it is clear that it harms no one, benefits everyone, and potentially increases the return rate of lost players.
Faenir Antollare wrote: Edit.. I see you have yet again gone back and edited a post after a response, are you really that feeble minded that you need to move goalpost's so as to justify your skriking ? Grow up man ffs GROW UP!!!
So you went back to edit in some insults, disrespect and trolling, all of which are now reported.
My edit did not move any goal posts nor change what was there. I merely added more explanation and elaboration on the existing points, for your own benefit so you would understand. To which you responded with insults/disrespect/trolling.
PvE v PvP
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:48:15 -
[283] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k boost universally.
Only benefit, for everyone, equally. Nor is there any harm in helping out the NPE with this gesture, if it really bothers you so much and you so dearly need them extra few sp just roll a brand new alt. Nobody is disputing helping NPE with this. NPE getting 350k sp boost does not bother me at all. Adding 350k to all characters, past, present and after the change, future, does not rescind, redact nor diminish the 350k boost to NPE. The question you should be asking, is why does making the 350k change universal bother YOU so much? It does not bother me in the slightest, in fact I am more than happy with the NPE being enriched. It is to your whining only that I have responded and nothing else What whining? You are the one whining against a universal 350k boost, when it is clear that it harms no one, benefits everyone, and potentially increases the return rate of lost players.
Lol me whining your a star kiddo, a fooking star
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
200
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:50:21 -
[284] - Quote
I don't understand why any player would begrudge giving 350k skillpoints to new players, especially when most of us started with more than that. New players are blocked from about 90% of the content in eve because they don't have the skill points to do it so they usually spend their first weeks grinding through low lvl missions and mining in ventures - probably the worst part of eve. It's like building a 4 star hotel and using a 10 mile dirt road as the driveway.
Only a certain type of player can survive weeks of tedium running missions and mining in high sec and I'm not sure those players should be our taget audience, if we want more pvp oriented gamers to stick around pvp needs to be more accessible. 350k sp is a small but welcome step in the right direction.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Salvos Rhoska
1522
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:55:18 -
[285] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:I don't understand why any player would begrudge giving 350k skillpoints to new playersn. I agree.
And nobody does.
Rather it is being suggested and put forth, that there are even greater benefits from adding the 350k to existing characters, as well as new characters created after that date.
PvE v PvP
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:02:09 -
[286] - Quote
"So you went back to edit in some insults, disrespect and trolling, all of which are now reported.
My edit did not move any goal posts nor change what was there. I merely added more explanation and elaboration on the existing points, for your own benefit so you would understand. To which you responded with insults/disrespect/trolling."
Quoted from Slavos`s latest rabid slaverings and post reply editings.
I sincerely hope you have reported me, as somebody who has never been reported ever in his whole EvE career I would welcome some dialogue with a GM regarding your participation and poisoning of the EvE-O forums.
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
200
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:04:50 -
[287] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:I don't understand why any player would begrudge giving 350k skillpoints to new playersn. I agree. And nobody does. Rather it is being suggested and put forth, that there are even greater benefits from adding the 350k to existing characters, as well as new characters created after that date.
I assume there's a good reason: maybe it would create too much workload, or maybe they don't want to set a precedent, I don't know but this is a positive change even if it's not universal.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1522
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:08:11 -
[288] - Quote
Faenir Antollare wrote: Quoted from Slavos`s latest rabid slaverings and post reply editings.
I sincerely hope you have reported me, as somebody who has never been reported ever in his whole EvE career I would welcome some dialogue with a GM regarding your participation and poisoning of the EvE-O forums.
I have and did. If you read accurately, I stated that specifically.
There will be no dialogue with a GM about anything. Merely them reviewing your insults/disrespect/trolling which is contrary to board rules, and rightfully reported as such.
PvE v PvP
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Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
400
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:10:30 -
[289] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Faenir Antollare wrote: Quoted from Slavos`s latest rabid slaverings and post reply editings.
I sincerely hope you have reported me, as somebody who has never been reported ever in his whole EvE career I would welcome some dialogue with a GM regarding your participation and poisoning of the EvE-O forums.
I have and did. If you read accurately, I stated that specifically. There will be no dialogue with a GM about anything. Merely them reviewing your insults/disrespect/trolling which is contrary to board rules, and rightfully reported as such.
lol, are you really that naive or just a fail troll ?
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
|
Salvos Rhoska
1522
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:20:02 -
[290] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:I don't understand why any player would begrudge giving 350k skillpoints to new playersn. I agree. And nobody does. Rather it is being suggested and put forth, that there are even greater benefits from adding the 350k to existing characters, as well as new characters created after that date. I assume there's a good reason: maybe it would create too much workload, or maybe they don't want to set a precedent, I don't know but this is a positive change even if it's not universal.
I agree entirely that it is a good change (on NPE part).
I sympathise completely with the NPE, being a relatively new player myself, and also having participated in Rookie chat and many hours of new player streaming, especialy in the last 3 months, where I have also contributed help.
Nobody is disputing this change to NPE, and frankly its been a long time coming.
It is additionally to that, not deductive from that, the arguments for making it a universal one off 350k boost to characters already existing, are being made.
This is an excellent opportunity, particularly in a time of reduced PCU, to reinvigorate not just the future new players, but the community overall.
This is because the introduction of the 350k as universal does not harm anyone. Nobody loses. Everyone benefits. Its like in the real world, if you could suddenly increase everyones potential for greatness, specialisation/diversfication, and their commensurate opportunities, without it costing anything, and without it harming anyone.
This should be taken advantage of. Such an opportunity is rare.
PvE v PvP
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ISD Buldath
ISD STAR
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:37:51 -
[291] - Quote
Quote: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
I have removed the offending posts, and those quoting it.
~ISD Buldath
Interstellar Services Department
Support, Training and Resources Division
Lt. Commander
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
192
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:51:24 -
[292] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:I'm a fairly new player to EVE, playing roughly 5 months now. With the new skill point changes, new players will be given for free skills that took roughly 1-2 weeks to train. Only players made in the 2 weeks before Vanguards release will be given free skill point compensation. Why is this? 1-2 weeks is roughly 5-10% of my total playing time. That is 1-2 weeks of subscription that I paid for to train those skills, which are now given to new players for free. That's 1-2 weeks of subscription/training time that I could have spent on something else. A lot for a new player. What possible reason is there to not give everyone with an existing account the SP compensation? I know how pathetic it sounds, but for someone with 7m SP, 350k is still a relatively large amount.
I understand this change is to help the new players, but perhaps CCP should remember to treat it's existing players well too.
OP, one thing you should know about Eve.
The vets rather see the game slowly dwindle away to nothing than accept any changes that may attract new players.
They have had it so rough in Eve, you really have to feel sorry for them. Just look at the responses.
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
200
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 14:54:47 -
[293] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
All these benefits, for everyone, at NO COST and at NO HARM.
We don't know what the cost is, it might not be as simple as pushing a few buttons and everyone gets free sp, I assume this is pretty old code they have to work with, I remember when they changed something on the Drone skill queue and there were complications that took some weeks and probably thousands of tickets before it was sorted. Now if it's not a big task - offering it to all active accounts as a goodwill gesture would do no harm, and would benefit newer players like you a lot more than established players. I have 25million skill points so it won't make a big difference to me, but to someone with 7mil i can see how it would be a nice boost especially if it's not allocated.
My first post wasn't aimed at you, I was talking specifically about the minority of bitters moaning as though the skillpoints were taken directly from them and given to new players.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Salvos Rhoska
1524
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 15:22:48 -
[294] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:
All these benefits, for everyone, at NO COST and at NO HARM.
We don't know what the cost is, it might not be as simple as pushing a few buttons and everyone gets free sp, I assume this is pretty old code they have to work with, I remember when they changed something on the Drone skill queue and there were complications that took some weeks and probably thousands of tickets before it was sorted. Now if it's not a big task - offering it to all active accounts as a goodwill gesture would do no harm, and would benefit newer players like you a lot more than established players. I have 25million skill points so it won't make a big difference to me, but to someone with 7mil i can see how it would be a nice boost especially if it's not allocated. My first post wasn't aimed at you, I was talking specifically about the minority of bitters moaning as though the skillpoints were taken directly from them and given to new players.
Granted, and agreed.
If it its difficult to introduce 350k to the entire base, so that it takes inordinate developer time, then dont do so.
My point being, as you ackowledged, that it would be a good thing, if possible.
If its difficult to implement, then nvm. Id rather that effort was put towards something else, as Im sure most other propnents of a universal 350k inlign with this change, would agree.
But if it can, its a greater net benefit for everyone, rather than just tye current 350k to new characters that actually dont even exist yet.
PvE v PvP
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 15:26:10 -
[295] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:I'm a fairly new player to EVE, playing roughly 5 months now. With the new skill point changes, new players will be given for free skills that took roughly 1-2 weeks to train. Only players made in the 2 weeks before Vanguards release will be given free skill point compensation. Why is this? 1-2 weeks is roughly 5-10% of my total playing time. That is 1-2 weeks of subscription that I paid for to train those skills, which are now given to new players for free. That's 1-2 weeks of subscription/training time that I could have spent on something else. A lot for a new player. What possible reason is there to not give everyone with an existing account the SP compensation? I know how pathetic it sounds, but for someone with 7m SP, 350k is still a relatively large amount.
I understand this change is to help the new players, but perhaps CCP should remember to treat it's existing players well too. OP, one thing you should know about Eve. The vets rather see the game slowly dwindle away to nothing than accept any changes that may attract new players. They have had it so rough in Eve, you really have to feel sorry for them. Just look at the responses.
It's an Internet forum, they are more than entitled to have and post their opinions. What I can't understand is the complete lack of logical arguments. Certain posters seem to be here just to troll and have a keyboard fight. I haven't directly responsed to tippia's "arguments" for many pages, yet he continues to quote my responses to others and try to make himself seem clever.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
120
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Posted - 2015.09.27 16:09:24 -
[296] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:I'm a fairly new player to EVE, playing roughly 5 months now. With the new skill point changes, new players will be given for free skills that took roughly 1-2 weeks to train. Only players made in the 2 weeks before Vanguards release will be given free skill point compensation. Why is this? 1-2 weeks is roughly 5-10% of my total playing time. That is 1-2 weeks of subscription that I paid for to train those skills, which are now given to new players for free. That's 1-2 weeks of subscription/training time that I could have spent on something else. A lot for a new player. What possible reason is there to not give everyone with an existing account the SP compensation? I know how pathetic it sounds, but for someone with 7m SP, 350k is still a relatively large amount.
I understand this change is to help the new players, but perhaps CCP should remember to treat it's existing players well too. OP, one thing you should know about Eve. The vets rather see the game slowly dwindle away to nothing than accept any changes that may attract new players. They have had it so rough in Eve, you really have to feel sorry for them. Just look at the responses. It's responses like this that shows the real intention behind the people supporting free SP to all players. It is just a simple desire for personal gain.
The statement makes no sense, since the new players are exactly the ones getting the 350k SP buff. So how is it, that by arguing against giving additional SP to everyone, EXCEPT the newly created characters, we are suddenly hurting them?
Yet, we have people (like Salvos) that keeps arguing that "Hey, there is no downside. SP to all!". But by doing that, you completely remove the goal of the change. Since you increase the SP level of the whole server population, the change is basically non-existent, besides a nominal increase of numbers in your skill queue.
This will "hurt" new players, in the sense, that you took away what was supposed to be a buff and an easier start to new players.
Imagine you are 100m from a post and you need to traverse that distance. Someone tells you, that you now get a headstart of 20m, but at the same time they move away the post 20m as well. Even though, you have traveled 20m, you are still 100m from the post. As you can see, getting a headstart made absolutely no difference in the actual matter.
It is supposed to be a very small (and negligible) catch-up mechanic, since you only get skills that you will always train anyways. Since older players already have all these skills trained, how is it fair that you could get an extra free 350k SP towards a Titan, on the expense of a newbie buff?
So I state again, by giving everyone free SP, you actually create a pointless buff to new players. A buff that is supposed to help with fundamental skills, as well as a one week head-start compared to the old starting point.
But then again, the people arguing for a universal SP increase are very poor debaters, that will generally just stick to their initial argument without expanding on it, or giving rational explanations to why their view is superior. So far, the way they have argued their case is by repeating the same points over and over. When that didn't help, instead of giving arguments to the counter-arguments, they proceed to repeat the same point louder (usually using CAPS). When that fails, they will just resolve to claim no counter-arguments exists.
Anyway, at the end of the day. The decision is in the hands of CCP. From what I can see, luckily enough, there does not seem to be any plans to reimbursing SP to all characters.
Hopefully, they will not bend under the pressure of a whining crowd (yes, the "new features" post is also filled with people crying for free SP) and implement it as is currently stated.
SP given ONLY to players created within 2 weeks from Vanguard and onwards. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 17:35:11 -
[297] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Johnny Riko wrote:I'm a fairly new player to EVE, playing roughly 5 months now. With the new skill point changes, new players will be given for free skills that took roughly 1-2 weeks to train. Only players made in the 2 weeks before Vanguards release will be given free skill point compensation. Why is this? 1-2 weeks is roughly 5-10% of my total playing time. That is 1-2 weeks of subscription that I paid for to train those skills, which are now given to new players for free. That's 1-2 weeks of subscription/training time that I could have spent on something else. A lot for a new player. What possible reason is there to not give everyone with an existing account the SP compensation? I know how pathetic it sounds, but for someone with 7m SP, 350k is still a relatively large amount.
I understand this change is to help the new players, but perhaps CCP should remember to treat it's existing players well too. OP, one thing you should know about Eve. The vets rather see the game slowly dwindle away to nothing than accept any changes that may attract new players. They have had it so rough in Eve, you really have to feel sorry for them. Just look at the responses. It's responses like this that shows the real intention behind the people supporting free SP to all players. It is just a simple desire for personal gain. The statement makes no sense, since the new players are exactly the ones getting the 350k SP buff. So how is it, that by arguing against giving additional SP to everyone, EXCEPT the newly created characters, we are suddenly hurting them? Yet, we have people (like Salvos) that keeps arguing that "Hey, there is no downside. SP to all!". But by doing that, you completely remove the goal of the change. Since you increase the SP level of the whole server population, the change is basically non-existent, besides a nominal increase of numbers in your skill queue. This will "hurt" new players, in the sense, that you took away what was supposed to be a buff and an easier start to new players. Imagine you are 100m from a post and you need to traverse that distance. Someone tells you, that you now get a headstart of 20m, but at the same time they move away the post 20m as well. Even though, you have traveled 20m, you are still 100m from the post. As you can see, getting a headstart made absolutely no difference in the actual matter. It is supposed to be a very small (and negligible) catch-up mechanic, since you only get skills that you will always train anyways. Since older players already have all these skills trained, how is it fair that you could get an extra free 350k SP towards a Titan, on the expense of a newbie buff? So I state again, by giving everyone free SP, you actually create a pointless buff to new players. A buff that is supposed to help with fundamental skills, as well as a one week head-start compared to the old starting point. But then again, the people arguing for a universal SP increase are very poor debaters, that will generally just stick to their initial argument without expanding on it, or giving rational explanations to why their view is superior. So far, the way they have argued their case is by repeating the same points over and over. When that didn't help, instead of giving arguments to the counter-arguments, they proceed to repeat the same point louder (usually using CAPS). When that fails, they will just resolve to claim no counter-arguments exists. Anyway, at the end of the day. The decision is in the hands of CCP. From what I can see, luckily enough, there does not seem to be any plans to reimbursing SP to all characters. Hopefully, they will not bend under the pressure of a whining crowd (yes, the "new features" post is also filled with people crying for free SP) and implement it as is currently stated. SP given ONLY to players created within 2 weeks from Vanguard and onwards.
You're simply ridiculous. If the goal of the change was to lessen the gap between new and existing players, then it is a terrible change and should be opposed by everyone. The way I see it, is the change is to try and make the game easier for new players. You are looking at it from a purely PVP perspective, which is wrong. If you're not going to raise a valid argument, rather than repeating the same dead logic, then I would appreciate it if you stop posting in this thread and lowering the quality of the responses.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12082
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Posted - 2015.09.27 17:44:52 -
[298] - Quote
dude this was a chum bucket whinge thread to begin with, the trolling is the only thing of merit here
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Sylveria Relden
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:00:59 -
[299] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:dude this was a chum bucket whinge thread to begin with, the trolling is the only thing of merit here
Eh, merit is questionable, more like free entertainment.
Bottom line is CCP will do what CCP will do- it's already been announced, it will help new players and it's a really good move.
The amount of skillpoints given is pretty negligible to established players and starting threads like this isn't going to change what's already in motion. If you want to protest, the Jita monument is still where it's always been located.
We can do the whole "when I was your age" argument all day long and it really won't change a thing- it's a different time, and CCP is trying to do what they can to incentivize new players to even want to create an account. If you care in the slightest about the game continuing to move forward- you might want to consider CCP can't pay the bills with "good intentions".
5 miles, uphill, in the snow, both ways, evading wolves, yada yada.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
120
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:18:51 -
[300] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote: You're simply ridiculous. If the goal of the change was to lessen the gap between new and existing players, then it is a terrible change and should be opposed by everyone. The way I see it, is the change is to try and make the game easier for new players. You are looking at it from a purely PVP perspective, which is wrong. If you're not going to raise a valid argument, rather than repeating the same dead logic, then I would appreciate it if you stop posting in this thread and lowering the quality of the responses.
CCP Rise wrote: The goal here is to get new players over as many early barriers to gameplay as possible. By throwing in a whole bunch of prereqs and adding to the basic support skill amounts we are hoping new players have faster access to a wider range of activities right out of the box.
If the highlighted part does not imply that CCP wants to give new players a small head-start, then I don't know what in your world would.
They simply want newbies a bit faster through some of the core skills everyone will and have trained. It can be argued, that people who do not have these skills trained yet, but are beyond the 2 week "grace" period. Should just get these skills to the new minimal level. But then again, this is not what you argue...
Giving people who already have these base skills an additional 350k SP, that can be used on anything. Is unfair and unjustified. It is unfair, since the new characters cannot freely decide the allocation of these 350k points. It is unjustified, because of the lack of reason to give everyone an additional 350k for free. It is meant as a small buff for new characters, not a give-away to the whole EvE population.
When you give money to charity, do you also give the same amount to your neighbor and random citizens you meet on the street? I mean, it will do no harm... Only benefits! You probably don't, since there would be no point in such an action. Just as there is no point in handing out free SP, based on a buff to new characters.
But sure, I'll leave you guys to your quality posting, unless I see something completely absurd (like the statement, that left me no other choice than to reply and tell the person what nonsense they were spewing). People making nonsensical or absurd arguments cannot be left unchecked. |
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:19:08 -
[301] - Quote
Sylveria Relden wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:dude this was a chum bucket whinge thread to begin with, the trolling is the only thing of merit here Eh, merit is questionable, more like free entertainment. Bottom line is CCP will do what CCP will do- it's already been announced, it will help new players and it's a really good move. The amount of skillpoints given is pretty negligible to established players and starting threads like this isn't going to change what's already in motion. If you want to protest, the Jita monument is still where it's always been located. We can do the whole "when I was your age" argument all day long and it really won't change a thing- it's a different time, and CCP is trying to do what they can to incentivize new players to even want to create an account. If you care in the slightest about the game continuing to move forward- you might want to consider CCP can't pay the bills with "good intentions". 5 miles, uphill, in the snow, both ways, evading wolves, yada yada.
Clearly I care about the game. But like I said, I don't think the purpose of the update is to shorten the gap between new and existing players. If that is the case then it is a pitiful attempt by CCP. If it is to make things easier for new players, that is good. But recompensating old players for the time they spent for skill levels that are effectively removed from the game (if everyone has them, it's the same as no one having them,) isn't going to affect new players in the slightest.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Sylveria Relden
97
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:31:48 -
[302] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:
Clearly I care about the game. But like I said, I don't think the purpose of the update is to shorten the gap between new and existing players. If that is the case then it is a pitiful attempt by CCP. If it is to make things easier for new players, that is good. But recompensating old players for the time they spent for skill levels that are effectively removed from the game (if everyone has them, it's the same as no one having them,) isn't going to affect new players in the slightest.
CCP has already stated that it's to improve the NPE- so I'm failing to see a "problem" here. What skills are "being removed"? I'm unaware of any skills being removed- only skilpoints being awarded to new players. What does anyone hope to accomplish with these threads protesting skilpoints being awarded to the new players anyway? Seriously?
I have to agree that anyone protesting giving new players more skillpoints so they have additional choices in getting started in the game is being extremely selfish- but I suppose it's par for the course in what this game has become over the years.
Blame the premise of the game, I suppose. Everyone for themselves, etc.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2158
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:32:34 -
[303] - Quote
I suspect Malcanis' Law might apply to the situation the OP describes. Not sure exactly how...but EvE players will find a way... That being said, *shrug*, CCP will do whatever they feel is best for their game I suppose. Adapt and let them worry about it, OP. Time to play Disney princess and "let it go".
On a more important note: Starship Troopers is one of the best books ever written. Too bad the "movie" was so excruciatingly bad as an adaptation. With current CGI capabilities, an actual movie adaptation of the book could be made. A guy can dream , eh?
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3411
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:40:42 -
[304] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Sylveria Relden wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:dude this was a chum bucket whinge thread to begin with, the trolling is the only thing of merit here Eh, merit is questionable, more like free entertainment. Bottom line is CCP will do what CCP will do- it's already been announced, it will help new players and it's a really good move. The amount of skillpoints given is pretty negligible to established players and starting threads like this isn't going to change what's already in motion. If you want to protest, the Jita monument is still where it's always been located. We can do the whole "when I was your age" argument all day long and it really won't change a thing- it's a different time, and CCP is trying to do what they can to incentivize new players to even want to create an account. If you care in the slightest about the game continuing to move forward- you might want to consider CCP can't pay the bills with "good intentions". 5 miles, uphill, in the snow, both ways, evading wolves, yada yada. Clearly I care about the game. But like I said, I don't think the purpose of the update is to shorten the gap between new and existing players. If that is the case then it is a pitiful attempt by CCP. If it is to make things easier for new players, that is good. But recompensating old players for the time they spent for skill levels that are effectively removed from the game (if everyone has them, it's the same as no one having them,) isn't going to affect new players in the slightest.
This would provide a one time reduction in the gap between new players and existing players because both players will be earning SP even after this change.
It is the difference between a level change (think of a step function) with a single step (upwards) and a change in rates (e.g. assuming a flat SP training rate between new and old players of 1850, if new players were then boosted to train a say 1.25*1850 they'd start closing the gap on older players).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3414
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:49:41 -
[305] - Quote
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:I suspect Malcanis' Law might apply to the situation the OP describes. Not sure exactly how...but EvE players will find a way... That being said, *shrug*, CCP will do whatever they feel is best for their game I suppose. Adapt and let them worry about it, OP. Time to play Disney princess and "let it go".
On a more important note: Starship Troopers is one of the best books ever written. Too bad the "movie" was so excruciatingly bad as an adaptation. With current CGI capabilities, an actual movie adaptation of the book could be made. A guy can dream , eh?
Actually, I believe Malcanis himself noted that the removal of learning skills was one of the few changes that actually violated the law,
Quote:First and most famous: the removal of Learning Skills and the refund of the SP invested into the Learning Skills. This unquestionably benefitted new players, as it removed a huge section of skill training that was required early in a characters career. These meta-skills didn't do anything in themselves, but allowed you to acquire other skills faster. CCP actually didn't so much remove them as simply give them fully trained to everyone. In fact, at the time, I thought this change did follow the Law, because all the old players received a lump sum of refunded skillpoints that they could immediately invest in whatever skills they wanted, allowing them an instant gain of up to 5,400,000 instantly applicable SP, and of course their disposable alts would now all have a +15 SP/minute training bonus, reducing the gameplay/interaction niches available for "real" new players. Additionally, older players who had already got their core skills with friendly stat requirements trained up could use those SP for skills with awkward stat combinations, saving further training time and increasing their effective advantage over the new players. Mathematically speaking I was correct, but in practice I had lost sight of the fact that not everyone is as patient (and mildly OCD) as me, and that removing the learning skills was such a vast improvement in the quality of life for genuine new players that even the very considerable bonus to older players was overshadowed. (This was one of the incidents that gave me the insight that EVE is about people first, numbers second.)--Malcanis
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Josef Djugashvilis
2992
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:54:50 -
[306] - Quote
As a fairly long time Eve player - early 2007 I have tried to worry about CCP giving new players a bit of a leg-up so to speak.
Nope, just cannot see what the problem is.
If giving new players a few more skill points at the start of their Eve career will help with player retention, I am all for it.
This is not a signature.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3414
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:58:04 -
[307] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:As a fairly long time Eve player - early 2007 I have tried to worry about CCP giving new players a bit of a leg-up so to speak.
Nope, just cannot see what the problem is.
If giving new players a few more skill points at the start of their Eve career will help with player retention, I am all for it.
Considering new players now get far less than you got...that is right, IMO.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Josef Djugashvilis
2992
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 19:01:26 -
[308] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:As a fairly long time Eve player - early 2007 I have tried to worry about CCP giving new players a bit of a leg-up so to speak.
Nope, just cannot see what the problem is.
If giving new players a few more skill points at the start of their Eve career will help with player retention, I am all for it. Considering new players now get far less than you got...that is right, IMO.
I cannot for the life of me remember what I got, but I do remember 'training skills to train skills' I hated it, but just accepted it as part of the game.
This is not a signature.
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Jim Coal
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.09.27 19:02:27 -
[309] - Quote
Ima go ahead and awares anyone not knowing why the hot heat up everytime someone talks about sp and new players.
Guys it ain't hard. It's all about dem char bazaars.
Most of the rich mofos got a ton of that cheedah riding on chars be worth like 100bil isk maybe even more. You turn out dat new player makin his way not needin no skill trained up and dat rich mufugga is out a whole damn lot of dat bread.
Strait up tho. If da game turn around and be like "we need dem new boyz," tomorroh and gave all that skill out these dudes gunna burn it down like woah.
Much respect for da vets in here talkin for the new players tryina git us some more of what we need but CCP aint bettin on gettin dem new guys, they bettin on keepin all these rich old segregationist dudes with a plantation full of new players, house full of old characters n money, and alliance more inbred than queen of england. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 19:02:54 -
[310] - Quote
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:I suspect Malcanis' Law might apply to the situation the OP describes. Not sure exactly how...but EvE players will find a way... That being said, *shrug*, CCP will do whatever they feel is best for their game I suppose. Adapt and let them worry about it, OP. Time to play Disney princess and "let it go".
On a more important note: Starship Troopers is one of the best books ever written. Too bad the "movie" was so excruciatingly bad as an adaptation. With current CGI capabilities, an actual movie adaptation of the book could be made. A guy can dream , eh?
I hope your comments on starship troopers were just jokes.
To whomever says that they aren't removing anything...
I'm utterly amazed at how people cannot understand this basic concept. If you give every single player a skill that gives a 8% boost to turret dps, then they have effectively removed the skill and raised the dps of all turrets by 8%, with an option to train for 2% more. There will be effectively 1 skill level of gunnery, the other 4 are redundant and removed.
To put it even simpler, if CCP made everyone have every skill to V, the the skill system would effectively be removed. Is that really THAT difficult to understand?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3414
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Posted - 2015.09.27 19:06:27 -
[311] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:As a fairly long time Eve player - early 2007 I have tried to worry about CCP giving new players a bit of a leg-up so to speak.
Nope, just cannot see what the problem is.
If giving new players a few more skill points at the start of their Eve career will help with player retention, I am all for it. Considering new players now get far less than you got...that is right, IMO. I cannot for the life of me remember what I got, but I do remember 'training skills to train skills' I hated it, but just accepted it as part of the game.
You are few months older than I am. I actually still have my first character (thought I'd try mining...ugghhhh). That character has 821,817 SP. You probably started with something similar.
Yeah, the learning skills sucked. Once they were trained it was awesome, but waiting for them to finish was a horrible stretch where you just didn't get much new stuff to do. Their removal was overall a good thing for the game.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jim Coal
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.09.27 19:07:26 -
[312] - Quote
Naw main, ain't hard to understan that at all. Hard part is gettin them old money boys to not get mad when someone talkin about what everyone know is right. Tippia like that boy down at the country club don't want no brothers to play golf. Sayin' we gotta take lessons and all that. Aint nobody ever asked no ol money to take no golf lesson, but he gunna ask us to cuz he don't want no young hungry boys out there gettin his bread. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3414
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 19:14:08 -
[313] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:I suspect Malcanis' Law might apply to the situation the OP describes. Not sure exactly how...but EvE players will find a way... That being said, *shrug*, CCP will do whatever they feel is best for their game I suppose. Adapt and let them worry about it, OP. Time to play Disney princess and "let it go".
On a more important note: Starship Troopers is one of the best books ever written. Too bad the "movie" was so excruciatingly bad as an adaptation. With current CGI capabilities, an actual movie adaptation of the book could be made. A guy can dream , eh?
I hope your comments on starship troopers were just jokes. To whomever says that they aren't removing anything... I'm utterly amazed at how people cannot understand this basic concept. If you give every single player a skill that gives a 8% boost to turret dps, then they have effectively removed the skill and raised the dps of all turrets by 8%, with an option to train for 2% more. There will be effectively 1 skill level of gunnery, the other 4 are redundant and removed. To put it even simpler, if CCP made everyone have every skill to V, the the skill system would effectively be removed. Is that really THAT difficult to understand?
This is what happend with learning skills. Not only were the skills removed, EVERYONE had their attributes adjusted as if they had trained all the learning skills to 5. This provided the benefit of the learning skills to the new players without the horrible period of actually having to do it. Those who already had them trained received those SP back and were allowed to "spend" them on new skills they had yet to train or were training.
FYI, lots of good info here. Examples,
Quote:In Apocrypha the New Player Experience was extensively overhauled, with new characters receiving only 50k SP compared to the approximately 800k previously, but with a bunch of free skill books from the revamped tutorial missions. This was paired with a 100% skill training speed until the character reached 1.6m SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jim Coal
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.09.27 19:18:13 -
[314] - Quote
Ain't that some hot **** then huh? Most these ol money aint even had it half as bad as a new player gunna have it with all this big help we gunna git. Then they gotta come up in this and talk about how everyone "entitled," like we aint payin. SMH |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 19:33:56 -
[315] - Quote
Jim Coal wrote:Ain't that some hot **** then huh? Most these ol money aint even had it half as bad as a new player gunna have it with all this big help we gunna git. Then they gotta come up in this and talk about how everyone "entitled," like we aint payin. SMH
You're my hero
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2158
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Posted - 2015.09.27 19:45:20 -
[316] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:I suspect Malcanis' Law might apply to the situation the OP describes. Not sure exactly how...but EvE players will find a way... That being said, *shrug*, CCP will do whatever they feel is best for their game I suppose. Adapt and let them worry about it, OP. Time to play Disney princess and "let it go".
On a more important note: Starship Troopers is one of the best books ever written. Too bad the "movie" was so excruciatingly bad as an adaptation. With current CGI capabilities, an actual movie adaptation of the book could be made. A guy can dream , eh?
Actually, I believe Malcanis himself noted that the removal of learning skills was one of the few changes that actually violated the law, Quote:First and most famous: the removal of Learning Skills and the refund of the SP invested into the Learning Skills. This unquestionably benefitted new players, as it removed a huge section of skill training that was required early in a characters career. These meta-skills didn't do anything in themselves, but allowed you to acquire other skills faster. CCP actually didn't so much remove them as simply give them fully trained to everyone. In fact, at the time, I thought this change did follow the Law, because all the old players received a lump sum of refunded skillpoints that they could immediately invest in whatever skills they wanted, allowing them an instant gain of up to 5,400,000 instantly applicable SP, and of course their disposable alts would now all have a +15 SP/minute training bonus, reducing the gameplay/interaction niches available for "real" new players. Additionally, older players who had already got their core skills with friendly stat requirements trained up could use those SP for skills with awkward stat combinations, saving further training time and increasing their effective advantage over the new players. Mathematically speaking I was correct, but in practice I had lost sight of the fact that not everyone is as patient (and mildly OCD) as me, and that removing the learning skills was such a vast improvement in the quality of life for genuine new players that even the very considerable bonus to older players was overshadowed. (This was one of the incidents that gave me the insight that EVE is about people first, numbers second.)--Malcanis
Interesting, thanks.
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
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Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2158
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Posted - 2015.09.27 20:02:10 -
[317] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:
I hope your comments on starship troopers were just jokes.
Not at all. Great book, terrible movie adaptation of that book. If the movie had been a standalone work then it would have been ok. As it was the movie was very disappointing in that regard. Sorry, that's my opinion.
In the not-so-distant future you may be a bit embarrassed by this whole SP thread thing... You do come across as seeming a tad whiny. Sorry again.
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
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Jim Coal
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.09.27 20:06:28 -
[318] - Quote
Yeh it do come across at cryin when ol money tells us we need to earn that bred they got strait up for starters. What you talkin' about after all this honda-man? You tellin me I gota pick up my sandwhich at the back door cuz you don't want no new players havin that 800k you got out with? Don't need to remind us ya'll dun got a few mil throw back atcha along the way. We know how yall do. |
Salvos Rhoska
1526
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Posted - 2015.09.27 21:32:13 -
[319] - Quote
The change is not intended to narrow the gap between new characters created after the date, and those before.
PvE v PvP
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Jim Coal
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.09.27 21:43:46 -
[320] - Quote
Yeeh but da man don't want none of that. He dont care bout nobody but himself and fuk all dem newboys wanna play wit they own. Dis game got worse than that countrycub i been talkin abou. You gun hafta make demboys mad as hell fo dis game is gittin a bunch of new blood. |
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Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2160
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Posted - 2015.09.28 02:03:08 -
[321] - Quote
Jim Coal wrote:Yeh it do come across at cryin when ol money tells us we need to earn that bred they got strait up for starters. What you talkin' about after all this honda-man? You tellin me I gota pick up my sandwhich at the back door cuz you don't want no new players havin that 800k you got out with? Don't need to remind us ya'll dun got a few mil throw back atcha along the way. We know how yall do. Oh brother. I don't care if CCP decides to start new players out at 0 or 3 million SP, I'm just not going to whine about it either way. Knock yourself out, w/e.
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1139
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Posted - 2015.09.28 02:29:30 -
[322] - Quote
When did we decide that it was okay to let someone troll around as an 1880s wannabe Jamaican house servant?
This is beyond nuts.
Someone needs to shut that **** down. In 8 years of EvE that's the first thing Ive seen that i thought was offensive.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
642
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Posted - 2015.09.28 02:37:02 -
[323] - Quote
Glathull wrote:When did we decide that it was okay to let someone troll around as an 1880s wannabe Jamaican house servant?
This is beyond nuts.
Someone needs to shut that **** down. In 8 years of EvE that's the first thing Ive seen that i thought was offensive.
Racist. |
Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1139
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Posted - 2015.09.28 02:49:00 -
[324] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Glathull wrote:When did we decide that it was okay to let someone troll around as an 1880s wannabe Jamaican house servant?
This is beyond nuts.
Someone needs to shut that **** down. In 8 years of EvE that's the first thing Ive seen that i thought was offensive. Racist.
Oh, I'm sorry, did you not understand what I meant? No. Of course you didn't.
The person posting what I quoted above is not an actual Jamaican person. Let me spell it out for you: that's a person who is exploiting false stereotypes to create a racist persona.
**** you calling me racist. I'm calling out racism. For real.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3416
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Posted - 2015.09.28 02:49:05 -
[325] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Glathull wrote:When did we decide that it was okay to let someone troll around as an 1880s wannabe Jamaican house servant?
This is beyond nuts.
Someone needs to shut that **** down. In 8 years of EvE that's the first thing Ive seen that i thought was offensive. Racist.
In before the lock.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1139
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Posted - 2015.09.28 02:55:16 -
[326] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Glathull wrote:When did we decide that it was okay to let someone troll around as an 1880s wannabe Jamaican house servant?
This is beyond nuts.
Someone needs to shut that **** down. In 8 years of EvE that's the first thing Ive seen that i thought was offensive. Racist. In before the lock.
Eff you to. That Jim Coal character is a troll. I live and work with Jamaicans ever day. This guy is just making an ass out of everyone. That's not how they talk. That's not how they think. This Coal guy is being a real, genuine shithead,
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
642
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 03:20:55 -
[327] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Glathull wrote:When did we decide that it was okay to let someone troll around as an 1880s wannabe Jamaican house servant?
This is beyond nuts.
Someone needs to shut that **** down. In 8 years of EvE that's the first thing Ive seen that i thought was offensive. Racist. In before the lock. Eff you to. That Jim Coal character is a troll. I live and work with Jamaicans ever day. This guy is just making an ass out of everyone. That's not how they talk. That's not how they think. This Coal guy is being a real, genuine shithead,
What right do you have to dictate what one's race or ethnicity is?
Who do you think you are?
There's a saying about making assumptions. You should adhere. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
653
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Posted - 2015.09.28 03:54:51 -
[328] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:CCP should reinstate learning skills on your account then stall your skill queue until you train the prerequisites and the advanced skills to 4, that would make you realise just how truly frivolous your post is
I had all mine trained to V... I miss having that pointless bragging right. If medals were around back then (or were they?) I would have demanded that I have a special medal to commemorate the loss.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
170
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Posted - 2015.09.28 04:03:26 -
[329] - Quote
I'm sad to have missed the glory days of learning skills. It sounds like that was a good time. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
653
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 04:08:38 -
[330] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I'm sad to have missed the glory days of learning skills. It sounds like that was a good time.
Absolutely was. Characters school and faction determined starting skills and attributes. No such thing as a remap. So if lucky, were able to quickly get the basic skills to function, then spend weeks training skills for the sole reason being to get skills faster. I went to Level V all around. The difference meant it would take over a year for the SP invested into the advanced level five to pay back. But I did it for the "am a boss" factor. Normal IV/III training would be about a three month return
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6411
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Posted - 2015.09.28 04:13:39 -
[331] - Quote
Quote:Forum rules23. Post constructively.Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. 27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
Due to off topic posting, I am closing this thread. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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