Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:17:20 -
[241] - Quote
Zihao wrote:[To be perfectly honest McGriffin, I couldn't care less about the skillpoints. I just like the debate and I think I have the better argument. Your argument is based on a complete misunderstanding of what is happening and why, and on what looks like a complete ignorance of NPE changes, skill changes, and SP reimbursement policies throughout the history of EVE.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:39:12 -
[242] - Quote
That's a compelling rebuttal, but could you explain the flaw in my argument instead of implying it is mistaken? My ignorance is nothing I've attempted to hide and if you're keen to give a history lesson, I am happy to be persuaded. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:47:16 -
[243] - Quote
Zihao wrote:That's a compelling rebuttal, but could you explain the flaw in my argument instead of implying it is mistaken? You mean like I did in the previous post?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 02:59:12 -
[244] - Quote
Yes, very much like that, but with a factual rebuttal of my learning skills corollary instead of the implication that all arguments from my person are invalid due to a historical handicap. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:01:33 -
[245] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Yes, very much like that, but with a factual rebuttal of my learning skills corollary You mean like I did in the previous post?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:02:35 -
[246] - Quote
Can you elaborate on what my "complete misunderstanding," is? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:08:10 -
[247] - Quote
Ahhh Tippia, continuing to demonstrate why she is not much more than the butt of forum jokes.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:08:12 -
[248] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Can you elaborate on what my "complete misunderstanding," is? You mean like I did in the previous post?
You think something is being (virtually) removed, when in fact everything stays exactly the same.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:09:38 -
[249] - Quote
To be more accurate, I said the case of removing something was more proximate to the situation than changing it's function. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:12:17 -
[250] - Quote
Zihao wrote:To be more accurate, I said the case of removing something was more proximate to the situation than changing it's function. GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
So it's more akin to the skills being the same they've always been because, well, they haven't changed in any way.
In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting. But of course, they do need them because the skills and their levels haven't been removed, altered, skipped, fiddled with or changed in any way whatsoever.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:16:52 -
[251] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total.
Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:18:54 -
[252] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. No, the reason is because we've seen these kinds of transitions before; we know the principles at play; and we aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Quote:Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. Seems you should take the time to actually read what we say rather than rely on strawman fallacies and similar nonsense.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:21:33 -
[253] - Quote
Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change.
Tippia wrote: In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting.
I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. In-fact you can find me arguing the contrary in previous threads on the subject matter. This is a debate only because I find the arguments opposed to be weak given what I've touch on above. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:22:59 -
[254] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums.
I'm sorry are you referring to me or Tippia? The first part appears to agree with me, but the second part leaves me wondering....how is a player with 2 million SP considered a "veteran".....?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:26:23 -
[255] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. Tippia wrote: In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting.
I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. In-fact you can find me arguing the contrary in previous threads on the subject matter. This is a debate only because I find the arguments opposed to be weak given what I've touch on above.
I everyone has a skill at 4 or higher, then in effect the SP for SP 4 and below have been removed. Given past precedent of "refunding such SP" then EVERYONE should be refunded those SP irrespective of age.
[/lawyer mode]
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:26:26 -
[256] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. I'm sorry are you referring to me or Tippia? The first part appears to agree with me, but the second part leaves me wondering....how is a player with 2 million SP considered a "veteran".....?
I'm not saying all veterans are the same as they're not.
I was replying to what Tippia wrote, not yourself. The reply to your reply.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:27:30 -
[257] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. No skills are being changed in Vanguard.
This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
Quote:I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. GǪnor did I say you did. I said that if things were changing the way you claimed, this thread wouldn't exist because there would be no additional SP for new characters. None would be required to fulfil the intent of the change.
Teckos Pech wrote:I everyone has a skill at 4 or higher, then in effect the SP for SP 4 and below have been removed. Given past precedent of "refunding such SP" then EVERYONE should be refunded those SP irrespective of age. The premise does not match reality, nor does it follow that this means the skill levels have been removed GÇö effectively or otherwise. There is also no precedent that would suggest that everyone should be refunded should such equality occur.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:30:30 -
[258] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums.
To which the corollary is that those who are put out by this change are only so because they feel like they are missing out on more free stuff.
Except this change is not about free stuff. It is about giving new players more options sooner. From CCP's perspective SP is just a way to keep track of the options a player has within certain mechanics in the game.
However if we were to take the 'catching up' reading of this many posters here have, then you could argue that from the perspective of a new player who would benefit from this change, giving it to those who have already had a 'few months head start' would make no difference.
In fact, those skill points given to a player a few months into the game would actually have a different value than it would to a fresh player. For a new player, it is the difference between actually having basic access to content, or being able to fit a ship. To a more established player it allows them to become more specialised and effective in a chosen role.
Ultimately the arguement from those who feel they are missing out is one from self interest, so I won't expect them to worry about the game's health or acknowledge what CCP is trying to accomplish if it makes it harder to argue for something that benefits them personally. Because greed and humans.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3409
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:30:37 -
[259] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP. Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is that 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. But for someone with around 2 million sp it's a different story as it represents a much larger percentage of their total. Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. I'm sorry are you referring to me or Tippia? The first part appears to agree with me, but the second part leaves me wondering....how is a player with 2 million SP considered a "veteran".....? I'm not saying all veterans are the same as they're not. I was replying to what Tippia wrote, not yourself. The reply to your reply.
Ok...wasn't sure. Thanks for the clarification.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:36:16 -
[260] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zihao wrote:Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. No skills are being changed in Vanguard. This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
I don't see what that has to do with it.
They give sp for extended downtime, so they have the means to make it fair for everyone, yet they choose not to.
That doesn't make what they're doing right.
If they didn't have the means to do it fairly then I could understand them choosing the course of action that they are doing. Although I still think 350k is too small to make any real difference. |
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:37:04 -
[261] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No skills are being changed in Vanguard.
Moving up the initial value is a change and, as I explained, I believe that's more proximate to the precedent of removal qua "they cannot be trained hence on new characters," at least more so than "they remain but have a new purpose." Hence my suggestion the latter argument is weaker.
Tippia wrote: This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
I agree, what I've suggested is that, of the historical events I am presently aware of and we have discussed, the situation seems to better fit the situation of a pseudo-removal than a purpose shift. I believe we agree the latter is not the case. Your strongest argument, I believe is that there is no change practically, but I have explained above why I disagree.
Tippia wrote: I said that if things were changing the way you claimed, this thread wouldn't exist because there would be no additional SP for new characters. None would be required to fulfil the intent of the change.
I fully agree that if there were no effective change, as you claim, that this thread would not exist. ;)
|
Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
106
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:43:04 -
[262] - Quote
There is an easy solution for anyone feeling they are hard done by in this:
- biomass your character and start a new one
You'll get the new skill arrangement and have nothing to complain about (I wish).
This thread is a new level of entitlement. Biomass or HTFU. Even without gaining this one week of skillpoints, you'll still be in front of anyone gaining them (<2 weeks old) or starting fresh. You'll still be a vet by comparison. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:44:37 -
[263] - Quote
Corvois wrote: To which the corollary is that those who are put out by this change are only so because they feel like they are missing out on more free stuff.
Which seems about as valid as the lackadaisical moral hazard argument when it's not entirely clear what the precedent is in this situation. I decline to accept either as morally superior.
Corvois wrote: Except this change is not about free stuff. It is about giving new players more options sooner. From CCP's perspective SP is just a way to keep track of the options a player has within certain mechanics in the game.
Absolutely true, except it is free stuff for new players because that's two fewer weeks subscription they're paying before they access these new skills.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:47:32 -
[264] - Quote
Avvy wrote:I don't see what that has to do with it. What what has to do with it?
Quote:They give sp for extended downtime, so they have the means to make it fair for everyone, yet they choose not to. They are making it fair: they are ensuring that bad timing does not screw you out of getting the new NPE baseline. If the NPE does not apply to you, then this change is not relevant to you and you can't be screwed over regardless.
They could do it unfairly and just say that, GÇ£Oh, you made a character after we released the patch notes? Tough luck.GÇ¥ Instead, they went beyond fair and added a buffer so that even exceptionally slow trainers would reach the new baseline. Everyone else has already reached the baseline and is therefore not party to any kind of fairness argument.
Zihao wrote:Moving up the initial value is a change and, as I explained, I believe that's more proximate to the precedent of removal qua "they cannot be trained hence on new characters," at least more so than "they remain but have a new purpose." Hence my suggestion the latter argument is weaker. A change in the new character skill set is not a skill change. No skills are changed in Vanguard. They are all exactly the same as they were before the patch. They do not have a new purpose. There are no change in the mechanics. No-one is losing any ability.
Since no skills are being changed; since no ability is lost; since no skills are removed, there is nothing that would warrant an SP reimbursement.
Quote:I agree, what I've suggested is that, of the historical events I am presently aware of and we have discussed, the situation seems to better fit the situation of a pseudo-removal than a purpose shift GǪexcept that nothing is being removed. Pseudo or otherwise. Every skill and every level remains exactly the same; every ability unlocked remains exactly the same; every SP trained is retained and does not change in value or functionality.
So there is nothing that would warrant an SP reimbursement.
Quote:I fully agree that if there were no effective change, as you claim, that this thread would not exist Then you don't agree.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:51:57 -
[265] - Quote
I believe you've disregarded pseudo too quickly and I believe under a more extreme case we would agree that changes of zero bar are in-fact changes.
Hypothetically: If vanguard made all subcapital ship skills default trained to level V, would we be arguing that nothing had changed since no new skills were added or taken away and their functions remained constant? (Genuinely curious) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:03:52 -
[266] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I believe you've disregarded pseudo too quickly and I believe under a more extreme case we would agree that changes of zero bar are in-fact changes. It is a change, just not to a skill. In particular, it's not a change that in any way equates to a skill removal or a loss of ability or a removal of a game mechanic. Thus: there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement.
Practically, on Tuesday, some characters will gain skill levels you have. Some may even gain skill levels you don't have. Neither is equivalent to you losing the skills and abilities you have, and all related game mechanics keep operating the same as they did the day before. Therefore, there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement, same as on every other day when this has happened, is happening, and will keep happening.
If you're curious about your hypothetical, PM one of the devs.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Corvois
Sentinel Development Studio
17
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:09:37 -
[267] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Corvois wrote: To which the corollary is that those who are put out by this change are only so because they feel like they are missing out on more free stuff.
Which seems about as valid as the lackadaisical moral hazard argument when it's not entirely clear what the precedent is in this situation. I decline to accept either as morally superior. Corvois wrote: Except this change is not about free stuff. It is about giving new players more options sooner. From CCP's perspective SP is just a way to keep track of the options a player has within certain mechanics in the game.
Absolutely true, except it is free stuff for new players because that's two fewer weeks subscription they're paying before they access these new skills. Ima GoodGirl wrote: This thread is a new level of entitlement. Biomass or HTFU.
Thanks for keeping the thread bumped. Hopefully we can bring the debate to a close before you lose any more sleep over it.
Which makes this a business decision made by CCP that I expect they believe will improve the NPE. This decision is not about any other class of player, and it's impact on them is non existent. After this change they can still do the things that they were able to before. The only difference is some kind of perceived and tenuous opportunity cost. It also bears repeating that CCP has been very consistent in how they deal with SP.
The facts can be summerised as: - CCP makes a change for one class of player in line with their business goals - The change partially reverses an element of the Apocrypha expansion. - Other classes of players completely unaffected either positively or negatively are unhappy with this
I am unclear about where this becomes a problem.
You train something, you get it. If the skill changes in some way, you will still have it. If a change affects what you can do in the game, then they will seek to ensure that the thing you did in the past you can still continue to do.
Changing the NPE is not a reason to hand out SP. The value of SP to a new player and to an established player is different. An established player has also received other benefits from the time they have already spent playing, such as the in game rewards linked to their activity. Ergo, an argument that they have somehow 'wasted money' is specious and self serving.
And it has been mentioned, this has been done before, and at one time in the opposite direction. I was even able to find a reference (http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/02/new-eve-online-characters-will-initially-train-skills-twice-as-f/).
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:15:27 -
[268] - Quote
Tippia wrote:In particular, it's not a change that in any way equates to a skill removal or a loss of ability or a removal of a game mechanic. Thus: there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement.
I disagree. It is entirely plausible that characters more than two weeks old not have a skill which becomes a default, which is a loss by reference to the new standard. I don't argue that this is sure to warrant disbursed sp, but I believe it is more like the situations in which sp was disbursed than those in which it wasn't.
Tippia wrote: Practically, on Tuesday, some characters will gain skill levels you have. Some may even gain skill levels you don't have. Neither is equivalent to you losing the skills and abilities you have, and all related game mechanics keep operating the same as they did the day before. Therefore, there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement, same as on every other day when this has happened, is happening, and will keep happening.
If you're curious about your hypothetical, PM one of the devs.
I would think "practically," was a poor choice of words. If we observe the scenario in which older character suddenly does not have a skill which new character defaults with, he has "practically," lost something, to the extent that there is a new standard which even brand-new characters meet which he does not. I would have gone with "literally."
I will take your lack of opinion on that hypothetical as a kindly nod to my point. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26396
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:30:36 -
[269] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I disagree. It is entirely plausible that characters more than two weeks old not have a skill which becomes a default, which is a loss by reference to the new standard. GǪand yet, they lose nothing. They still have all the skills and abilities they trained for and unless they ****** up something fierce, they have at least twice the baseline SP. Therefore, they are not negatively affected by the NPE switch-over, especially not in a way that warrants an SP reimbursement.
On the utterly minute chance that they do have less than the baseline, they still come out ahead: they can just biomass and start a new character and get more than they had before. It is impossible to lose.
Quote:I would think "practically," was a poor choice of words. If we observe the scenario in which older character suddenly does not have a skill which new character defaults with, he has "practically," lost something No, he hasn't. In practice, everything is the same as before the patch GÇö he has the same skills and abilities he had before and they all work the same as always. Everything his skills let him do in practice before, he can do in practice afterwards as well (Entosis Links and Festival Launchers aside). If he didn't have the skill, he didn't have the skill, so he didn't lose it or the abilities it unlocked.
If he absolutely, desperately wants to see it as an opportunity lost, he lost it a long time ago when he chose not to train that skill GÇö it has nothing to do with what happens on Tuesday. His choice, by the way, does not warrant a reimbursement. Something happening to someone else does not entitle him to anything, least of all SP GÇö only changes that actually happen to him, directly are cause for him getting reimbursed.
Quote:I will take your lack of opinion on that hypothetical as a kindly nod to my point. Don't. It'll cause you nothing but grief. Take it for exactly what I said or don't take it at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
109
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 04:40:44 -
[270] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Ima GoodGirl wrote: This thread is a new level of entitlement. Biomass or HTFU.
Thanks for keeping the thread bumped. Hopefully we can bring the debate to a close before you lose any more sleep over it. Yep. Entitled dickhead spotted.
Here, have this. Hopefully it helps:
http://youtu.be/VgvM7av1o1Q |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |