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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Aries Stark
Failure in Progress
0
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Posted - 2015.10.22 23:25:31 -
[241] - Quote
Two boats getting reduced range on EWAR Two boats getting Increased range on EWAR.
Can you not give 2 boats an unjustified advantage? Vigil getting web range and maulus getting disruptor/scram range sets them above not only their new counterparts, but pre-existing boats aswell.
Keep them with their primary function, Target painter and Sensor Damps.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
302
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Posted - 2015.10.23 05:27:30 -
[242] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:EWAR ship bonuses seem to suggest otherwise, though, in principle what's to say that preventing something from warping or moving as well is fundamentally different from preventing locking or shooting as well?
racial ewar
caldari = ecm gallente = damps minmatar = painters amarr = TDs
Recons and EAFs get a secondary bonus to 'utlity' modules, minus caldari who double up on ecm.
gallente = points minmatar = webs amarr = nos/neut
It would make far more sense for the amarr ship to have neut range.
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Lucy Alfrir
The Lost Shadows
3
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Posted - 2015.10.23 06:45:47 -
[243] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:There can be no reason other than to deal with WCS. What this represents is a tacit admission that WCS in FW plexes are working as intended. Now that DSTs are a thing, it may be related more than just to stabbed FW ships. I have flu and I'm missing the acronym, could you spell it out a bit for a sick simpleton please ? Deep Space Transports. They have a native +2 warp core strength.
If you are relying on your warp core strength to get your DST safely thru lowsec you are doing it wrong!!
Also one of these frigs will last about 3 volleys of gateguns.
In null you have bubbles anyway.
Shouldn't really have any effect on DSTs, stabbed campers tho... |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
223
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Posted - 2015.10.23 08:40:40 -
[244] - Quote
I like that Caldari are finally getting a Hybrid navy ship, but I don't like that all it's bonuses are in ECM and then the ECM is gimpeed to the point where it's less useful than it would be on a non bonused ship, what the fk is the point of that? Caldari are the sniper specialists, they should be getting a hull with range bonuses - not range nerfs. An ECM griffin with bonus to rail guns would be more caldari style
Griffin Navy Issue Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Optimal range
Misc Bonus: 100% bonus to ECM strength
The Navy Crucifier is even worse, if they are going to be shoe horned into brawling they should have full range on their td's so they can load range disruption scripts and force missile/turret boats to come into their engagement range or bugger off.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Arla Sarain
686
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Posted - 2015.10.23 12:40:55 -
[245] - Quote
Consider giving the crucifier a neut bonus with -range.
The implication being that it would have to keep dunking into close range where lasers can lose due to tracking. |
Vailen Sere
The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
12
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Posted - 2015.10.23 18:41:53 -
[246] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:EWAR ship bonuses seem to suggest otherwise, though, in principle what's to say that preventing something from warping or moving as well is fundamentally different from preventing locking or shooting as well? racial ewar caldari = ecm gallente = damps minmatar = painters amarr = TDs Recons and EAFs get a secondary bonus to 'utlity' modules, minus caldari who double up on ecm. gallente = points minmatar = webs amarr = nos/neut It would make far more sense for the amarr ship to have neut range. Your "Double up" ECM ships are the only truly effective ones in game that involves small gang combat.
Looking at the stats, the Navy griffen might be able to pull its own better than the griffen, but that range cut might nueter it to the point a tristan can just get in close and slam it to death.
The damage is always a distant 3rd on an ECM platform. It isn't there to do damage. It is there to Jam.
Small gang frigate group.. this might be real fun to fly.. or not. I agree on a rnage cut, but I'm thinking at 15% total range, this would put Jams at the same range as blasters, which with no tank = 1 quickly dead ECM ship which will be insta-primary.
I'd also get rid of a high and add a medium slot at least for a little tank. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1667
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Posted - 2015.10.23 20:30:32 -
[247] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:EWAR ship bonuses seem to suggest otherwise, though, in principle what's to say that preventing something from warping or moving as well is fundamentally different from preventing locking or shooting as well? racial ewar caldari = ecm gallente = damps minmatar = painters amarr = TDs Recons and EAFs get a secondary bonus to 'utlity' modules, minus caldari who double up on ecm. gallente = points minmatar = webs amarr = nos/neut It would make far more sense for the amarr ship to have neut range. Webs and point/scrams are listed under electronic warfare, nos/neuts are not. There is no "utility" module section that the latter set of mods fall under, thus I'm not sure where this classification comes from.
Though admittedly that makes my prior statement off regarding cap warfare mods. |
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2015.10.23 21:26:13 -
[248] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Templar Dane wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:EWAR ship bonuses seem to suggest otherwise, though, in principle what's to say that preventing something from warping or moving as well is fundamentally different from preventing locking or shooting as well? racial ewar caldari = ecm gallente = damps minmatar = painters amarr = TDs Recons and EAFs get a secondary bonus to 'utlity' modules, minus caldari who double up on ecm. gallente = points minmatar = webs amarr = nos/neut It would make far more sense for the amarr ship to have neut range. Webs and point/scrams are listed under electronic warfare, nos/neuts are not. There is no "utility" module section that the latter set of mods fall under, thus I'm not sure where this classification comes from. Though admittedly that makes my prior statement off regarding cap warfare mods. I think it's all E-war. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1489
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 01:22:56 -
[249] - Quote
Great, more overpowered ships... powercreep is bad. Don't release this ships.
The Tears Must Flow
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
304
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Posted - 2015.10.24 02:36:18 -
[250] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Webs and point/scrams are listed under electronic warfare, nos/neuts are not. There is no "utility" module section that the latter set of mods fall under, thus I'm not sure where this classification comes from.
Though admittedly that makes my prior statement off regarding cap warfare mods.
If you look at the bonuses the different races get in their tech 1 lineup, and then look at what those modules do......and consider that neuts/webs/scrams are things that we fit on our ships regardless of bonuses.....damps/TDs/painters/ecm are a completely different animal.
The navy crucifier getting a TD bonus is really odd. It should stay as is but with the TD bonuses removed. Give it a long range neut but no slot changes.
Then it'll look like...
2 lasers 1 neut
mwd injector point whatever
tank in lows
It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps, and with a long range neut it could at least eventually cap out the kiter and then be able to go in for the tackle.
The only issue is it would probably need the sentinel's range bonus as well as amount. That's 400% range and 100% amount. Idiots would likely cry foul because the number looks really big, but it's the bonus the sentinel has and it would only have one of them.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
386
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Posted - 2015.10.24 03:18:38 -
[251] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Webs and point/scrams are listed under electronic warfare, nos/neuts are not. There is no "utility" module section that the latter set of mods fall under, thus I'm not sure where this classification comes from.
Though admittedly that makes my prior statement off regarding cap warfare mods.
If you look at the bonuses the different races get in their tech 1 lineup, and then look at what those modules do......and consider that neuts/webs/scrams are things that we fit on our ships regardless of bonuses.....damps/TDs/painters/ecm are a completely different animal. The navy crucifier getting a TD bonus is really odd. It should stay as is but with the TD bonuses removed. Give it a long range neut but no slot changes. Then it'll look like... 2 lasers 1 neut mwd injector point whatever tank in lows It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps, and with a long range neut it could at least eventually cap out the kiter and then be able to go in for the tackle. The only issue is it would probably need the sentinel's range bonus as well as amount. That's 400% range and 100% amount. Idiots would likely cry foul because the number looks really big, but it's the bonus the sentinel has and it would only have one of them.
Why fly a sentinel then? Not like people use it to td. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
171
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Posted - 2015.10.24 11:23:52 -
[252] - Quote
I would've preferred an Assault Frigate patch. |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
229
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Posted - 2015.10.24 11:44:39 -
[253] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Great, more overpowered ships... powercreep is bad. Don't release this ships.
I don't even know how I'd suggest they balance a ship with missiles and +50% web range bonus, or drones and +50% scram range bonus. it's insane, it's near pirate faction levels of godliness on navy hulls just make them go away.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1233
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Posted - 2015.10.24 11:50:54 -
[254] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Great, more overpowered ships... powercreep is bad. Don't release this ships. I don't even know how I'd suggest they balance a ship with missiles and +50% web range bonus, or drones and +50% scram range bonus. it's insane, it's near pirate faction levels of godliness on navy hulls just make them go away.
mm.. i really don't like that frigs can send their close range high dps drones upto 60km
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
172
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Posted - 2015.10.24 15:44:01 -
[255] - Quote
Okay so here's my genuine feedback in the context of small gang/solo (since this is my area of experience and what CCP states are what these ships are designed to excel at).
Crucifier Navy Issue: I assume the bonus will apply to the new missile disruption module, which means that if it lands a scram on you and your primary source of DPS isn't drones, it wins. 4 effective turrets, 2 drones and 4 mids make it a superb brawler. However it's rather slow so it's quite vulnerable to kiting. It's weapon disruption penalty makes disruption ineffective past 11-12km.
Conclusion: Whatever this ship can kill, the Sentinal can as well and do so without committing to scram range. Also weak against drone boats. Has some use in situations where ships land at 0 near you and you can chose the fight by spamming the directional to see what will land :D
Griffin Navy Issue: Here's how I can outline the flaw with this ship. Let's just forget the bonus for one second. This ship has more effective turrets (with the potential for an extra missile or nos/neut), more base HP, more base cap, more base CPU (identical base PWG) and more base speed than the Merlin. It doesn't have the Merlin's tank bonus but it has an extra mid. Granted it has one less low which will means it has to sacrifice a magstab (more than made up for by the fact that it had more effective turrets and a launcher slot) or forego the auxiliary power core necessary to fit a medium shield extender (can still fit a medium ancillary without auxiliary power core).
Conclusion: tl/dr, it's a better Merlin with the option to fit a jammer. Bring a mobile depot and one of each racial jammer. A fun ship if you're into winning through dishonour. Rename to Merlin Lucky Rabbit Foot Issue
Tristan Overpowered Issue Maulus Navy Issue What can I say, it's a Tristan with the ability to scram out to 16.2 with t2 scram or 20+ with faction scram and/or links. Not even my poor troll Venture is safe from this fit :( Extra low plus the additional CPU to fit an extra DDA or more speed as well. Oh and more base HP as well.
Conclusion: Will be extremely strong, likely overpowered when combined with links. Unlike the Garmur which can on some occasions be outplayed and die if you catch them, this ship, like the Tristan, will beat a lot of t1 brawlers even if you do manage to catch them. I noticed that this ship has the current speed of the Tristan before the proposed 10m/s speed nerf. I propose applying the same nerf to this ship and/or lowering the base EHP so that it rewards players who do manage the difficult task of catching it.
Vigil Fleet Issue 19.5km OH web. Obviously more with faction/links. Solid 4 mids, excellent base speed, 4.5 effective launchers with nova missiles, 4 effective launchers with every other damage type AND 3 drones. Extremely strong especially as webs affect oversized prop mods (Svipul/Confessor). This IMO is actually stronger than the Tristan Overpowered Issue. Nothing more to say.
Conclusion: I like the idea of anything that causes Svipul pilots tears. This ship has enough DPS to down almost any other frigate in the 3 minutes it has to OH its web. Garmurs however have more base tank and DPS than it so against non-oversized AB ships or ships that have MJDs the Garmur is still superior. This is definitely a strong ship but I welcome the addition of any ship that can help gangs hunt Svipuls and Confessors (will still die to Beam Confessors and Artillery Svipuls though so be careful VFI pilots). |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
14
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Posted - 2015.10.24 15:51:41 -
[256] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Tristan Overpowered Issue Maulus Navy Issue What can I say, it's a Tristan with the ability to scram out to 16.2 with t2 scram or 20+ with faction scram and/or links. Not even my poor troll Venture is safe from this fit :( Extra low plus the additional CPU to fit an extra DDA or more speed as well. Oh and more base HP as well.
Conclusion: Will be extremely strong, likely overpowered when combined with links. Unlike the Garmur which can on some occasions be outplayed and die if you catch them, this ship, like the Tristan, will beat a lot of t1 brawlers even if you do manage to catch them. I noticed that this ship has the current speed of the Tristan before the proposed 10m/s speed nerf. I propose applying the same nerf to this ship and/or lowering the base EHP so that it rewards players who do manage the difficult task of catching it.
It's just another waste of space that literally nobody will bother engaging solo unless in a similar wanky ship. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:06:12 -
[257] - Quote
would love too know why all 4 have so many drones, its not like they lack dps from launchers/turrets.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Ray P
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2015.10.24 17:23:09 -
[258] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Okay so here's my genuine feedback in the context of small gang/solo (since this is my area of experience and what CCP states are what these ships are designed to excel at).
Crucifier Navy Issue: I assume the bonus will apply to the new missile disruption module, which means that if it lands a scram on you and your primary source of DPS isn't drones, it wins. 4 effective turrets, 2 drones and 4 mids make it a superb brawler. However it's rather slow so it's quite vulnerable to kiting. It's weapon disruption penalty makes disruption ineffective past 11-12km.
Conclusion: Whatever this ship can kill, the Sentinal can as well and do so without committing to scram range. Also weak against drone boats. Has some use in situations where ships land at 0 near you and you can chose the fight by spamming the directional to see what will land :D
Griffin Navy Issue: Here's how I can outline the flaw with this ship. Let's just forget the bonus for one second. This ship has more effective turrets (with the potential for an extra missile or nos/neut), more base HP, more base cap, more base CPU (identical base PWG) and more base speed than the Merlin. It doesn't have the Merlin's tank bonus but it has an extra mid. Granted it has one less low which will means it has to sacrifice a magstab (more than made up for by the fact that it had more effective turrets and a launcher slot) or forego the auxiliary power core necessary to fit a medium shield extender (can still fit a medium ancillary without auxiliary power core).
Conclusion: tl/dr, it's a better Merlin with the option to fit a jammer. Bring a mobile depot and one of each racial jammer. A fun ship if you're into winning through dishonour. Rename to Merlin Lucky Rabbit Foot Issue
Tristan Overpowered Issue Maulus Navy Issue What can I say, it's a Tristan with the ability to scram out to 16.2 with t2 scram or 20+ with faction scram and/or links. Not even my poor troll Venture is safe from this fit :( Extra low plus the additional CPU to fit an extra DDA or more speed as well. Oh and more base HP as well.
Conclusion: Will be extremely strong, likely overpowered when combined with links. Unlike the Garmur which can on some occasions be outplayed and die if you catch them, this ship, like the Tristan, will beat a lot of t1 brawlers even if you do manage to catch them. I noticed that this ship has the current speed of the Tristan before the proposed 10m/s speed nerf. I propose applying the same nerf to this ship and/or lowering the base EHP so that it rewards players who do manage the difficult task of catching it.
Vigil Fleet Issue 19.5km OH web. Obviously more with faction/links. Solid 4 mids, excellent base speed, 4.5 effective launchers with nova missiles, 4 effective launchers with every other damage type AND 3 drones. Extremely strong especially as webs affect oversized prop mods (Svipul/Confessor). Very strong ship. Nothing more to say.
Conclusion: I like the idea of anything that causes Svipul pilots tears. This ship has enough DPS to down almost any other frigate in the 3 minutes it has to OH its web. Garmurs however have more base tank and DPS than it so against non-oversized AB ships or ships that have MJDs the Garmur is still superior. This is definitely a strong ship but I welcome the addition of any ship that can help gangs hunt Svipuls and Confessors (will still die to Beam Confessors and Artillery Svipuls though so be careful VFI pilots).
conclusion: somebody's been busy farming minmattar lp |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
305
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 19:40:44 -
[259] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Why fly a sentinel then? Not like people use it to td.
Because weapon distruptors aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Templar Dane wrote: It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps
Templar Dane wrote: It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps
Templar Dane wrote: It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
388
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Posted - 2015.10.24 20:45:07 -
[260] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Why fly a sentinel then? Not like people use it to td.
Because weapon distruptors aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Templar Dane wrote: It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps
Templar Dane wrote: It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps
Templar Dane wrote: It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps
cause you fly a sentinel for its lousy 4 drones? |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1667
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Posted - 2015.10.24 21:20:27 -
[261] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Webs and point/scrams are listed under electronic warfare, nos/neuts are not. There is no "utility" module section that the latter set of mods fall under, thus I'm not sure where this classification comes from.
Though admittedly that makes my prior statement off regarding cap warfare mods.
If you look at the bonuses the different races get in their tech 1 lineup, and then look at what those modules do......and consider that neuts/webs/scrams are things that we fit on our ships regardless of bonuses.....damps/TDs/painters/ecm are a completely different animal. The navy crucifier getting a TD bonus is really odd. It should stay as is but with the TD bonuses removed. Give it a long range neut but no slot changes. Then it'll look like... 2 lasers 1 neut mwd injector point whatever tank in lows It couldn't fit multiple neuts without gimping its dps, and with a long range neut it could at least eventually cap out the kiter and then be able to go in for the tackle. The only issue is it would probably need the sentinel's range bonus as well as amount. That's 400% range and 100% amount. Idiots would likely cry foul because the number looks really big, but it's the bonus the sentinel has and it would only have one of them. How often you use them doesn't change their classification. Rather it just means that warp disruption is a much higher priority form of ewar that TDs or ECM. The reason for that being obvious.
Fact is TDs (kinda), ECM, webs, points, damps and scrams all interfere with a ships normal functions justifying their classification as EWAR, but as one would imagine some forms are more desired than others depending on their specific effect. Also I fit painters to non-bonused hulls quite frequently in PvE due to scrams and points being of no use there.
Also your proposition makes the Crusifier weaker IMHO when it doesn't need to be. A TD bonus gives it survivability in an aggressive role, which seems to be where these ships were aimed. They chose the ewar aspect that didn't interfere with damage capacity for a reason I believe. |
Esqire Evingod
Spectraliz IIZ
1
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Posted - 2015.10.25 01:15:18 -
[262] - Quote
IMO Griffin Navy Issue should have shorter ECM cycle time about 1/3 - 1/2 from original (not affecting the cap usage). |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
305
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Posted - 2015.10.25 03:37:23 -
[263] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:How often you use them doesn't change their classification. Rather it just means that warp disruption is a much higher priority form of ewar that TDs or ECM. The reason for that being obvious.
Fact is TDs (kinda), ECM, webs, points, damps and scrams all interfere with a ships normal functions justifying their classification as EWAR, but as one would imagine some forms are more desired than others depending on their specific effect. Also I fit painters to non-bonused hulls quite frequently in PvE due to scrams and points being of no use there.
Also your proposition makes the Crusifier weaker IMHO when it doesn't need to be. A TD bonus gives it survivability in an aggressive role, which seems to be where these ships were aimed. They chose the ewar aspect that didn't interfere with damage capacity for a reason I believe.
It would be a sentinel with more dps but less neuting power, sans tracking disruptor. The lasers aren't going to work very well for kiting since it's forced into scram range because of it's ewar bonus......at least the neut would give it an avenue of attack to get into scram range.
It makes zero sense that it's forced into scram range while the two good navy ewar ships get to kite and do it extremely well. The vigil and maulus are going to be powerhouses, flown solo and in gangs. How on earth can it go toe to toe with the maulus/vigil? The ewar doesn't work on drones, and missiles are still going to hit even if they do reduced damage.
Just to point out how absurd the TD bonus is.....
Must get into scram range to use it. Why not just fly a navy maulus with mwd/scram/TD instead?
If you're in scram range, you have to dedicate more slots to dictate range once you're there.
What good is a range script if you're already that close?
Oh hey, we have ewar for turrets and ewar for missiles. Sure hope you fit the right one. Those LMLs and rockets are still going to hit you even if you brought the right one.
A long range neut on the other hand........
Shut off their prop mods, their ewar, their tackle, their guns if they're using lasers/hybrids, shuts down local capacitor-dependant active tanks, shuts down a logi frigate. You now have complete range dictation barring them using an injector.
I mean really, why on earth would anyone fly a navy crucifier when they could fly a navy maulus and fit a TD to it? The effect of the TD would be 37.5% less but you'd more than make up for that with the vastly increased range and the 50% scram range bonus.
10.8km optimal on crucifier TD, 72km optimal TD on the maulus
59% optimal or tracking penalty to affected ship on crucifier, compared to 42.9% on maulus |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 04:56:29 -
[264] - Quote
Esqire Evingod wrote:IMO Griffin Navy Issue should have shorter ECM cycle time about 1/3 - 1/2 from original (not affecting the cap usage).
Edit: To peaple who say Vigil and Maulus have T2 EWAR bonuses. Think how useful painter would be in close range frigate combat. Dampers could be usefull but circumstances so rare that it just should not be, +1 scram strenght really is kind of random.
to keep the flavour going minmattar should be given target painters with -85% range, and Gallente should have sensor damps with -85% range.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 09:00:19 -
[265] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:It would be a sentinel with more dps but less neuting power, sans tracking disruptor. The lasers aren't going to work very well for kiting since it's forced into scram range because of it's ewar bonus......at least the neut would give it an avenue of attack to get into scram range.
It makes zero sense that it's forced into scram range while the two good navy ewar ships get to kite and do it extremely well. The vigil and maulus are going to be powerhouses, flown solo and in gangs. How on earth can it go toe to toe with the maulus/vigil? The ewar doesn't work on drones, and missiles are still going to hit even if they do reduced damage.
Just to point out how absurd the TD bonus is.....
Must get into scram range to use it. Why not just fly a navy maulus with mwd/scram/TD instead?
If you're in scram range, you have to dedicate more slots to dictate range once you're there.
What good is a range script if you're already that close?
Oh hey, we have ewar for turrets and ewar for missiles. Sure hope you fit the right one. Those LMLs and rockets are still going to hit you even if you brought the right one.
A long range neut on the other hand........
Shut off their prop mods, their ewar, their tackle, their guns if they're using lasers/hybrids, shuts down local capacitor-dependant active tanks, shuts down a logi frigate. You now have complete range dictation barring them using an injector.
I mean really, why on earth would anyone fly a navy crucifier when they could fly a navy maulus and fit a TD to it? The effect of the TD would be 37.5% less but you'd more than make up for that with the vastly increased range and the 50% scram range bonus.
10.8km optimal on crucifier TD, 72km optimal TD on the maulus
59% optimal or tracking penalty to affected ship on crucifier, compared to 42.9% on maulus Unless the idea is to make the sentinel the longest range of the group it's still going to have issues with being kited. Especially by the vigil. Also these aren't supposed to ewar kite past mid range. The vigil with faction webs is the only one that works past 16km.
Also, why use a range script at close range when a tracking script would mitigate more damage at that point against anything with decent range (and would still likely do a number on most frigate sized ships even range scripted)?
As for the malus using a TD, would it really forego a web for it? Yeah, it could use a TD, or even ECM, but at the expense of web or prop, I'm not seeing that a choice being made. That's somewhat moot though as the malus is too strong. That the crucifier doesn't stand up to it in a 1v1 means it's closer to being balanced.
As proposed the vigil and malus just seem too strong.
Also rockets from a vigil won't be hitting if you brought the right mod and scripts unless it's not actually kiting. LML's probably won't either unless wasting the bonus range of the webs. |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 09:48:59 -
[266] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Okay so here's my genuine feedback in the context of small gang/solo (since this is my area of experience and what CCP states are what these ships are designed to excel at).
Crucifier Navy Issue: I assume the bonus will apply to the new missile disruption module, which means that if it lands a scram on you and your primary source of DPS isn't drones, it wins. 4 effective turrets, 2 drones and 4 mids make it a superb brawler. However it's rather slow so it's quite vulnerable to kiting. It's weapon disruption penalty makes disruption ineffective past 11-12km.
Conclusion: Whatever this ship can kill, the Sentinal can as well and do so without committing to scram range. Also weak against drone boats. Has some use in situations where ships land at 0 near you and you can chose the fight by spamming the directional to see what will land :D
Griffin Navy Issue: Here's how I can outline the flaw with this ship. Let's just forget the bonus for one second. This ship has more effective turrets (with the potential for an extra missile or nos/neut), more base HP, more base cap, more base CPU (identical base PWG) and more base speed than the Merlin. It doesn't have the Merlin's tank bonus but it has an extra mid. Granted it has one less low which will means it has to sacrifice a magstab (more than made up for by the fact that it had more effective turrets and a launcher slot) or forego the auxiliary power core necessary to fit a medium shield extender (can still fit a medium ancillary without auxiliary power core).
Conclusion: tl/dr, it's a better Merlin with the option to fit a jammer. Bring a mobile depot and one of each racial jammer. A fun ship if you're into winning through dishonour. Rename to Merlin Lucky Rabbit Foot Issue
Tristan Overpowered Issue Maulus Navy Issue What can I say, it's a Tristan with the ability to scram out to 16.2 with t2 scram or 20+ with faction scram and/or links. Not even my poor troll Venture is safe from this fit :( Extra low plus the additional CPU to fit an extra DDA or more speed as well. Oh and more base HP as well.
Conclusion: Will be extremely strong, likely overpowered when combined with links. Unlike the Garmur which can on some occasions be outplayed and die if you catch them, this ship, like the Tristan, will beat a lot of t1 brawlers even if you do manage to catch them. I noticed that this ship has the current speed of the Tristan before the proposed 10m/s speed nerf. I propose applying the same nerf to this ship and/or lowering the base EHP so that it rewards players who do manage the difficult task of catching it.
Vigil Fleet Issue 19.5km OH web. Obviously more with faction/links. Solid 4 mids, excellent base speed, 4.5 effective launchers with nova missiles, 4 effective launchers with every other damage type AND 3 drones. Extremely strong especially as webs affect oversized prop mods (Svipul/Confessor). Very strong ship. Nothing more to say.
Conclusion: I like the idea of anything that causes Svipul pilots tears. This ship has enough DPS to down almost any other frigate in the 3 minutes it has to OH its web. Garmurs however have more base tank and DPS than it so against non-oversized AB ships or ships that have MJDs the Garmur is still superior. This is definitely a strong ship but I welcome the addition of any ship that can help gangs hunt Svipuls and Confessors (will still die to Beam Confessors and Artillery Svipuls though so be careful VFI pilots).
The Vigil fleet issue is even more OP than the Fleet Maulus, they both have huge engagement profiles, literally they can fight almost anything including most pirate faction frigs because they are very fast hulls, long range weapons and bonus to web/scram range makes it near impossible to pin them down. How have they not learned a lesson form the Mordu's legion ships? And why are you trying to justify the clearly OP state of the vigil by saying it's not quite as good as a Garmur but it will make Svipuls cry, ffs does that not tell you something? Especially since you seem to have a problem with the Navy Griffin because it's got some slightly better base stats than a t1 frig
genuine feedback im sure. fyi the Fleet vigil has 160dps
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
177
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Posted - 2015.10.25 13:14:43 -
[267] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Okay so here's my genuine feedback in the context of small gang/solo (since this is my area of experience and what CCP states are what these ships are designed to excel at).
Crucifier Navy Issue: I assume the bonus will apply to the new missile disruption module, which means that if it lands a scram on you and your primary source of DPS isn't drones, it wins. 4 effective turrets, 2 drones and 4 mids make it a superb brawler. However it's rather slow so it's quite vulnerable to kiting. It's weapon disruption penalty makes disruption ineffective past 11-12km.
Conclusion: Whatever this ship can kill, the Sentinal can as well and do so without committing to scram range. Also weak against drone boats. Has some use in situations where ships land at 0 near you and you can chose the fight by spamming the directional to see what will land :D
Griffin Navy Issue: Here's how I can outline the flaw with this ship. Let's just forget the bonus for one second. This ship has more effective turrets (with the potential for an extra missile or nos/neut), more base HP, more base cap, more base CPU (identical base PWG) and more base speed than the Merlin. It doesn't have the Merlin's tank bonus but it has an extra mid. Granted it has one less low which will means it has to sacrifice a magstab (more than made up for by the fact that it had more effective turrets and a launcher slot) or forego the auxiliary power core necessary to fit a medium shield extender (can still fit a medium ancillary without auxiliary power core).
Conclusion: tl/dr, it's a better Merlin with the option to fit a jammer. Bring a mobile depot and one of each racial jammer. A fun ship if you're into winning through dishonour. Rename to Merlin Lucky Rabbit Foot Issue
Tristan Overpowered Issue Maulus Navy Issue What can I say, it's a Tristan with the ability to scram out to 16.2 with t2 scram or 20+ with faction scram and/or links. Not even my poor troll Venture is safe from this fit :( Extra low plus the additional CPU to fit an extra DDA or more speed as well. Oh and more base HP as well.
Conclusion: Will be extremely strong, likely overpowered when combined with links. Unlike the Garmur which can on some occasions be outplayed and die if you catch them, this ship, like the Tristan, will beat a lot of t1 brawlers even if you do manage to catch them. I noticed that this ship has the current speed of the Tristan before the proposed 10m/s speed nerf. I propose applying the same nerf to this ship and/or lowering the base EHP so that it rewards players who do manage the difficult task of catching it.
Vigil Fleet Issue 19.5km OH web. Obviously more with faction/links. Solid 4 mids, excellent base speed, 4.5 effective launchers with nova missiles, 4 effective launchers with every other damage type AND 3 drones. Extremely strong especially as webs affect oversized prop mods (Svipul/Confessor). Very strong ship. Nothing more to say.
Conclusion: I like the idea of anything that causes Svipul pilots tears. This ship has enough DPS to down almost any other frigate in the 3 minutes it has to OH its web. Garmurs however have more base tank and DPS than it so against non-oversized AB ships or ships that have MJDs the Garmur is still superior. This is definitely a strong ship but I welcome the addition of any ship that can help gangs hunt Svipuls and Confessors (will still die to Beam Confessors and Artillery Svipuls though so be careful VFI pilots). The Vigil fleet issue is even more OP than the Fleet Maulus, they both have huge engagement profiles, literally they can fight almost anything including most pirate faction frigs because they are very fast hulls, long range weapons and bonus to web/scram range makes it near impossible to pin them down. What annoys me most is they are still better than the Navy Griffin and the Navy Crucifier even without the -85% range penalty... so what's going on here? How have they not learned a lesson form the Mordu's legion ships? And why are you trying to justify the clearly OP state of the vigil by saying it's not quite as good as a Garmur but it will make Svipuls cry, ffs does that not tell you something? Especially since you seem to have a problem with the Navy Griffin because it's got some slightly better base stats than a t1 frig genuine feedback im sure. fyi the Fleet vigil has 160dps Not sure if it's more OP. It has less tank meaning if you catch it you can probably kill it. But it's definitely going to be the harder one to catch and escape from.
And yes I retract my statement about it doing less DPS than the Garmur, I was just looking at the missiles. With drones it beats the Garmur in DPS which is rather redonk.
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Ray P
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.10.25 13:53:15 -
[268] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:
Just to point out how absurd the TD bonus is.....
Must get into scram range to use it. Why not just fly a navy maulus with mwd/scram/TD instead?
If you're in scram range, you have to dedicate more slots to dictate range once you're there.
What good is a range script if you're already that close?
lmao it's funny that tracking disruptors are more useful on the Navy Maulus, or the Fleet Vigil than they are on the Navy Crucifier.
just came back to the came a few weeks ago and already feel like leaving again, enough fighting in eve without having to battle with devs for a fair balanced game. All these ships should have full use of their ewar but they should all be almost as slow as t1 destroyers to make up for it. NOBODY WANTS TO SEE MORE KITERS and especially not untouchable kiters with defensive scrams and webs.
fozzie: next time you step on a lego, or pour sour milk on your cornflakes you should know it's the just the universe paying you back for your crimes against ship balance. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
308
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Posted - 2015.10.25 20:36:54 -
[269] - Quote
Ray P wrote:Templar Dane wrote:
Just to point out how absurd the TD bonus is.....
Must get into scram range to use it. Why not just fly a navy maulus with mwd/scram/TD instead?
If you're in scram range, you have to dedicate more slots to dictate range once you're there.
What good is a range script if you're already that close?
lmao it's funny that tracking disruptors are more useful on the Navy Maulus, or the Fleet Vigil than they are on the Navy Crucifier. just came back to the game a few weeks ago and already feel like leaving again, enough fighting in eve without having to battle with devs for a fair balanced game. All these ships should have full use of their ewar but they should all be almost as slow as t1 destroyers to make up for it. NOBODY WANTS TO SEE MORE KITERS and especially not untouchable kiters with defensive scrams and webs. fozzie: next time you step on a lego, or pour sour milk on your cornflakes you should know it's just the universe paying you back for your crimes against ship balance.
If they wanted to balance them, and keep the griffin/crucifier as the baseline......
navy maulus - penalty to drone control range, -85%. Now it has to brawl too
navy vigil - penalty to LM range. now a brawler
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Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
287
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Posted - 2015.10.25 20:43:52 -
[270] - Quote
I think Vigil and Maulus are actually SICK as fuk, it's Crucifier and Griffin that are mediocre, gimped and weirdly thought out.
Gotta agree with mr Dane on the crucifier, it should be bonused to neuts. |
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