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Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Nathanial Victor on 28/12/2006 23:32:25
edit: this is NOT a fitting/setup thread. there are plenty of those around if you want to post that stuff
I know, this thread has been done. But more so before it was released than after 
After release there was still whining and groaning (understandable) but from there ppl seeking productive discussion tried to look past the drawbacks and focus on the positive points.
SO, now that we have got some time to try her out, pvprs and carebears alike:
Thumbs up or down?
PVEers, is the shield boost bonus enough to send a raven lvl 4 runner to his character sheet to train up howies?
PVPers, are they popping up in snipe fleets more often? Or would you rather just train up a rohk / stick w/ tempest?
Miners, this thread is not for you (no offense, but i could care less, its a combat ship i would like to talk about combat ability)
I bought one, tested it out multiple times (short & long), and now i dont think it will ever undock again... unless i want to move it for a better sell price. Just doesn't feel like a minmatar ship.
Bottom line, do ppl hate it enough that ccp may consider some Maelstrom reform in the near future? (Be it stats or bonus's)
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Fruchten
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:36:00 -
[2]
I wont be buying one, if that means much. It just isn't worth it. I love my tempest and the mael just doesn't fit any role I have. Give the mael a shield HP bonus and maybe it will be worth it, maybe.
The hurricane on the other hand is very nice.
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d'hofren
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:07:00 -
[3]
Edited by: d''hofren on 29/12/2006 00:09:06
Haven't seen a single one out where I live and I think it is the only tier three BS I haven't seen. 112mil for the guns alone? To fit the thing well we must be talking 200mil of uninsurable kit. For the cost of the kit + ship I could have a nice pimp phoon and a standard fleet pest.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:44:00 -
[4]
Not worth the extra cost... stick with the Tempest.
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Chee
Minmatar
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:47:00 -
[5]
Its an ok ship, not great, nice to have on the side. Shield tank is good but it doesnt really add a new thing to the BS level.
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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VossKarr
Caldari
The 6th Directorate
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:56:00 -
[6]
As far as Maelstrom is concerned, it's a redundant ship. It's a Tempest, take two, with absolutely uninspiring bonuses and nothing about it that would make it worth the premium over the T. I hope CCP is taking notes... 
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War Bear
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:07:00 -
[7]
How's its alpha strike vs the tempest? I know there are different bonuses but if it squeeks out a bit more damage\better range\better tracking due to mods I would consider it worth it.
No matter where you go, there you are. |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 29/12/2006 01:12:04
 Originally by: War Bear
How's its alpha strike vs the tempest? I know there are different bonuses but if it squeeks out a bit more damage\better range\better tracking due to mods I would consider it worth it.
For a significant price increase, you get a slightly higher alpha, dps, and tracking (tracking boost of tracking enhancer < tracking boost of tracking computer).
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 29/12/2006 01:12:04
Originally by: War Bear
How's its alpha strike vs the tempest? I know there are different bonuses but if it squeeks out a bit more damage\better range\better tracking due to mods I would consider it worth it.
For a significant price increase, you get a slightly higher alpha, dps, and tracking (tracking boost of tracking enhancer < tracking boost of tracking computer).
NB.
hmm.... yes it erks out a bit more dps. I think i heard someone say it was equivelent of adding half a gun to a tempest.
So, slightly higher per volley = the bigger alpha/dps, but not sure where you get the tracking? (unless you just commenting on the extra mid... i use 2 track comps on a temp for sniping and couldn't see fitting 3 on a mael w/ stackig bonus)
lows are always damage mods, and i like 4 gyros on a sniper... so that leaves the mael kinda meh
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Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
So, slightly higher per volley = the bigger alpha/dps, but not sure where you get the tracking? (unless you just commenting on the extra mid... i use 2 track comps on a temp for sniping and couldn't see fitting 3 on a mael w/ stackig bonus)
It depends on fittings obviously. I'd say you kinda need 3 tracking mods for the extra range given the relatively low base optimal of artillery (VS tachyons and 425mm railguns at least).
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:44:00 -
[11]
they are an absolute ***** to kill in small gang PvP. I have never gone up against a rohk, but maelstrum's and hyp's have me checking my cargo to see if I have enough ammo.
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Twin blade
Minmatar
The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:50:00 -
[12]
It sucks Tempest is better in every way.
It should of been like the machariel only with 8 turret's a light fast armor tanking AC ship.
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 29/12/2006 02:02:38
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 29/12/2006 02:01:51
It cost far too much for what it does. Of course you like the Hurricane. Hurricane and cyclone have the same relationship as Maelstrom and Tempest. Except Maelstrom is the higher tier.
Shield tanking always sucked on Minmatar. They have to give 7.5 to even make it respectable. Look how much work and changes the Cyclone too before it was respectable.
I don't think there is anything they can do to make this ship worth the isk they want to charge for it.
It is far superior sniper than Tempest. Its slot layout allows for better tracking. it has longer lock range from start and more mid slots. Lots of power. Its tank is a beast. Absolute Beast. But for almost 2x the cost I'd take 2 tempests...
I got jumped by 3 vagabonds the other day. Stupid thing is soo freakin slow that it took ages to warp....and didnt  I may as well have been in a Naglfar. It tanked for a few minutes before the calvary arrived to save my hunk of tin.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Cindy Marco
Minmatar
Red Core
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:27:00 -
[14]
I don't like it. And its so bad, that at this point there is nothing for it. To come out a Minmatar ship, they would have to scrap everything it is, and start over.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:34:00 -
[15]
Aside from the shield tank and the autocannons, its an amarran boat at heart. You warp in, dont move, shoot at things and tank. Should do that role pretty darn well as well.
Its a great platform for autocannon rigs[30+KM falloff with fusion with, 45+ for barrage and powergrid to spare without any rig skills] with with a proper fit will be a very strong battleship.
It however, isnt the typical minmatar design, which should cause problems if you try to fly it like that.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Veryez
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:40:00 -
[16]
It's the only new ship I've yet to see in space. I certainly won't be flying one. As predicted when the concept of the ship was first released, without 7 mids it was just an expensive Tempest. Since it won't be fixed, it should be removed from the game and isk refunded.
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schurem
Silver Snake Enterprise
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:58:00 -
[17]
i love it. its teh pwn against angel rats.
Only irks i have with it are its exorbitant price and its speed/agility. she moves like a supertanker in a sea of molasses on a cold day.
On the up hand she fires eight gun broadsides 
She tanks with the best of em and has grid to spare for some sweet fittings.
However, I still think EvE needs more and better tactical warning sounds.
<<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>>
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Richard Masterson
FW Inc
Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2006.12.29 03:50:00 -
[18]
I bought a BPC for this and built one out in 0.0. After a few weeks with it:
1. I will never, ever, EVER use this ship for PvP. 8 turrets and alpha strike aside, it is too damn heavy, expensive (to build AND fit, thank-you-very-much T2 1400 howitzer prices), and uninspired to fly in fleet or gang combat. A Tempest will remain my first choice.
2. This is a solid PvE ship when used with another ship. I.E. Use a dedicated tanker to hold aggro, move the Mael off and snipe as fast as the guns will cycle. I like the fact that having only L proj ammo allows me to hold a large amount of ammo for extended missions. I have even used this as an autocannon boat, and although it has an appetite for ammo, it works well for anything cruiser sized and above.
(You will not, however, see Raven pilots training up for howitzers in order to fly this ship. Ever. In fact, I'd be tempted to train up for a Raven for NPCing rather than stick with the Maelstrom.)
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.29 03:55:00 -
[19]
PVE
- missions: phoon is a better pve ship with 2 out of 3 very versatile weapon systems, mael can fit a better tank but that's not really necessary, mael damage output is a bit gimped compared to phoon due to tracking issues
- ratting: any BS works well here imo the relevant thing here is cost and mael doesn't really shine in that
- complexes: mael tank can be good here, but a rokh and probably even an abbadon will perform better (speaking about BS)
PVP
- solo: not a good ship for solo pvp
- small gang: for my taste is not a very good gang ship, it needs to fit nanos/inertia in lows to approach fast, is quite vulnerable to nos, it can fit a big tank+gank but an EW approach is generally more effective
- fleet: a bit more dps/alpha and eventually hps at higher fitting price than a pest... is also going to fight in abaddon range... abaddon damage and shield tank = a lot of pain
what went wrong with this ship?
the ship is not that bad but it suffer from some problems...
it is too slow and cumbersome to be an effective AC boat and also is imo too vulnerable to NOS...
it have an useless bonus to be a good fleet boat... new fleet ships (caldari and amarr) have a good defensive and offensive bonus... is quite logical that a ship with just 1 effective bonus can't compete
arty are EXTREMELY underpowered compared to other long range turrets... they lost their alpha in these years but nothing was done to rebalance them... + 40-50% range imo will be a good solution to this problem
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Neo Providence
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Posted - 2006.12.29 04:08:00 -
[20]
man, and i was so hoping to build a malestrom tomorrow. really no kid. since every 1 find the malestrom very bad it does have 1 advantage over other tier 3 battleships. it's building cost is very low compare to other tier 3 b-ships. sooo right now i'm planning to leave the malestrom bpc on the table and just go with a hurricane.
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Twin blade
Minmatar
The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2006.12.29 04:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Neo Providence
man, and i was so hoping to build a malestrom tomorrow. really no kid. since every 1 find the malestrom very bad it does have 1 advantage over other tier 3 battleships. it's building cost is very low compare to other tier 3 b-ships. sooo right now i'm planning to leave the malestrom bpc on the table and just go with a hurricane.
It can shield tank better than a tempest but thats about it the damage is all most the same given how temp's can load more drone's.
!
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.12.29 04:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Neo Providence
man, and i was so hoping to build a malestrom tomorrow. really no kid. since every 1 find the malestrom very bad it does have 1 advantage over other tier 3 battleships. it's building cost is very low compare to other tier 3 b-ships. sooo right now i'm planning to leave the malestrom bpc on the table and just go with a hurricane.
The only thing the Maelstrom has going for it over the Tempest is that it is a bit more n00b friendly damage wise. A Maelstrom will do a fair bit more damage than a Tempest without BS 5 due to its 8 guns... with BS 5 it barely out damages the Tempest (due to Tempest's dual damage bonus) and costs a fair bit more (2 extra guns and higher base cost).
If you have the isk and don't have BS 5 the Maelstrom might be worthwhile, otherwise stick with the Tempest unless you have plenty of isk to burn.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.29 04:32:00 -
[23]
It's not a bad ship as such. It's just that over the Tempest it only does one thing significantly better and that's shield tank.
The dps(and volley damage as well) is only about 6% better (with bs lvl 5, the lower bs skill is though the better the maelstrom is over the tempest for dps/alpha up to 26% more dps from mael). For the rest it's slower, more expensive and requires an additional 2 guns to get the 6% higher dps/alpha(which also means no utility high-slots).
My opinion on a change if they were to change it, is to change the Rate of fire bonus to a damage bonus. This way the alpha strike of the Maelstrom really starts to mean something over the Tempest. It does mean that the Maelstrom will "only" do the same dps as a Tempest with max skill but when in a sniper setup the maelstrom would be preferable over a Tempest by about 33.33% 
Crystal-Slave, that way?
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.29 04:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Twin blade
Originally by: Neo Providence
...
It can shield tank better than a tempest but thats about it the damage is all most the same given how temp's can load more drone's.
huh? Since when is 100m¦ less then 75m¦?
Crystal-Slave, that way?
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
6Bagheera9
Shadows of the Dead
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.29 05:06:00 -
[25]
PvE:
Much better at running level 4s than my phoon. I can sit at 50-60km and just pound the **** out of anything in the level. The big difference is that the Maelstrom can fit a very strong tank while still mounting 8x 1400mm, basically its the Minmatar's answer to the Raven. The only real problem is tracking, artys have ****ty tracking for the range the fight at and you can only spare so many midslots for tracking comps. Drones are pretty much the option for dealing with rats that get under your guns.
PvP: I have not flown this in PvP, but I think it would make an excellent close support ship operating at around 75-100km. Snipers are free to shoot at you and you should warp out or release your drones if anything tries to tackle you. Don't try to use ACs or tackling mods with this ship, you simply cannot spare the midslots.
Conclusion: I'd like another mid for a tracking comp, but that might give the ship excessive tanking ability. A better solution would be to increase artilery's tracking so that we can better hit targets at the shorter ranges in which our guns shine.
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Ephemeron
The Syndicate Inc
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.29 05:34:00 -
[26]
Mealstrom would have a clear role as the best alpha strike ship if its ROF bonus was replaced by damage bonus
I think such a change would definitely make it more popular
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6Bagheera9
Shadows of the Dead
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.29 06:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Mealstrom would have a clear role as the best alpha strike ship if its ROF bonus was replaced by damage bonus
I think such a change would definitely make it more popular
Problem is that arty's really the RoF bonus in order to keep up their dps. The Maelstrom is more of a sustained bombardment ship as opposed to a long-range sniper.
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
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Posted - 2006.12.29 07:28:00 -
[28]
Now that I have had a couple off weeks running missions in one, I finally feel comfortable commenting on this ship in a PVE role.
It's really quite good overall.
highpoints:
It's got very good targeting range by default. Good enough to use 1200's out to their practical limits (assuming tech I ammo) without a sensor boost.
It does not require battleship 5 to do decent damage. I still have the better part of a month to go on battleship 5, and this is a big deal for the moment.
The drone bay is large enough to allow for some versatility. I can carry some throw away tech I's for when I am unsure of how drones may affect aggro in addition to the normal payload of tech II small and medium mission specific drones. The other option is a webber drone, which allows 1200 to hit cruisers reasonably well, even up close.
It tanks disgustingly well. I was able to handle the entire 3rd stage of pirate slaughter with ease. The dps involved was simply impossible to deal with in even my Tempest Fleet, and would pop a Typhoon in seconds. I have intentionally aggroed entire levels just to see how she handles and have watched in absolute amazement as my shields have remained pegged at 99%.
It has a very generous cap size by Minmatar standards. This allows you to run an afterburner and shield boost for an amount of time that would be impossible in other Matari ships.
The ship has proven to be reasonably flexible, and has done well with autocannon, 1200mm setups designed to tank heavy and fight at mid range, and with 1400mm sniping setups. I have used all three of these basic concepts, employing a a fair number of variations on each, and found all to be successful within their intended scope, though the ship does still seem to be missing a little something in this regard.
Lowpoints:
The two "extra" slots on my Tempest are sorely missed.
It handles like a brick. Both acceleration and top speed (even with a faction AB) are horrible. This feels more like a Caldari ship than a Matari ship when trying to dictate range and transversal.
It feels like it's missing a lowslot. Most of us complained when we saw the initial plans for this ship that called for an 8/6/6 layout, but I can say now, that the ship would be vastly improved if it had that additional low. While the low that got dropped is not strictly neccesary, it would have provided a greatly improved degree of flexibility.
Price. A couple of extra 1200's are no big deal really, but dropping another 50 million on 1400mm scouts after coughing up 170 million for the hull made this ship a bit on the pricey side to get started with.
Will this ship cause any Raven pilots to start training Howitzers? Probably not. The Rokh is an excellent ship in it's own right, and their time would be better spent learning large rail spec than dabbling in Matar ships and weapons. The ship does fill a role that Minmatar battleships had been missing: heavy tank. It fills the role admirably too. Given an active tank setup, there is no other battleship that can hope to compete with this ship in terms of it's ability to laugh off insanely high incoming dps.
Looking strictly at the PVE picture with this ship, it is worth the expense, but only if you are already well versed in mission running with the Tempest IMO. The tactics really do not change much, but because of the Maelstrom's lack of agility and sluggish handling, the ship can be a bit more difficult to use to maximum effect. Maximum profits and ease of use still belong to the Raven, but if the thought of running missions in a missile boat bores you to death, this really is not the worst you could do.
J.A.F.O.
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Nifel
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.29 07:47:00 -
[29]
I'll be sure to get one whenever I'll be doing lowsec ops with a BS. Otherwise it's the Tempest.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."
RKK Ranking: Sama |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.29 08:02:00 -
[30]
It looks and feels like a Caldari design with some Minmatar topping.
It isn't bad, but the price is very much on the high side for what it does.
Only part of this comes from pretty high T2 weapon and T2 shield tanking prices. Competing with the shield tanked mission running Raven for equipment adds quite some exra cash you have to dish out.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
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CaperPuts
Minmatar
Life. Universe. Everything.
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.12.29 08:35:00 -
[31]
How come damage and Rate of Fire bonuses always seem to be 5%?
Why not give the Maelstrom a 5% damage bonus... and a 2% RoF bonus per level? Or a 10% built in RoF bonus.
Hell, maybe a 7% Damage bonus?
I really don't mind the 7.5% shield boost per level. But I think Minmatar could use a ship where they are the UNMATCHED king of an alpha strike.
I have tried AC setups on this... it tanks better than my Tempest... but my tempest has two extra high slots to do whatever I please with. (I actually prefer doing x5 AC's and x2 Neutralizers and a Nosferatu, but no way I could get a decent DPS setup on a Maelstrom with only 5 guns)
I'm going to wait and see what CCP decides to do with this ship before I buy it. Atleast make it interesting 
lolz |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.29 09:27:00 -
[32]
To be a good artie boat, it would need a different secondary bonus, range or tracking.
For AC it DESESPERATELY NEEDS speed. Or give it an extra low so we can put a free extra inertia stab or nanofiber to aleviate the problem.
Where the hell can you imagine a minmatar ship that main adjective is SLOW?
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.29 09:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: CaperPuts
How come damage and Rate of Fire bonuses always seem to be 5%?
Why not give the Maelstrom a 5% damage bonus... and a 2% RoF bonus per level? Or a 10% built in RoF bonus.
Hell, maybe a 7% Damage bonus?
I really don't mind the 7.5% shield boost per level. But I think Minmatar could use a ship where they are the UNMATCHED king of an alpha strike.
I have tried AC setups on this... it tanks better than my Tempest... but my tempest has two extra high slots to do whatever I please with. (I actually prefer doing x5 AC's and x2 Neutralizers and a Nosferatu, but no way I could get a decent DPS setup on a Maelstrom with only 5 guns)
I'm going to wait and see what CCP decides to do with this ship before I buy it. Atleast make it interesting
I think the best thing would be a 5% damage bonus and.. another 5% damage bonus .... 8 1400 with 50% extra damage would make us king of alpha strike again.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
darth solo
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.29 09:55:00 -
[34]
its tasty.. tanks and hits like a beast.
it also just laughs at any tec2 (autocannon) fitting u try and put on it.
thumbs up(not up my hoop mind, thats stuff hurts).
d solo.
celes apoc kill board |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.29 09:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: 6Bagheera9
PvE:
Much better at running level 4s than my phoon. I can sit at 50-60km and just pound the **** out of anything in the level. The big difference is that the Maelstrom can fit a very strong tank while still mounting 8x 1400mm, basically its the Minmatar's answer to the Raven. The only real problem is tracking, artys have ****ty tracking for the range the fight at and you can only spare so many midslots for tracking comps. Drones are pretty much the option for dealing with rats that get under your guns.
Try a Machariel, it only costs 300m more and you will never look back ;-).
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darth solo
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.29 10:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Twin blade
It sucks Tempest is better in every way.
iv been flying pests for years and i 100% guarantee id take down ur pest in a 1v1 AC fight.
and how is the pest better at tanking?. this ship has a 7.5% bonus to shield boost and 1 extra mid. if u wanna armour tank ur pest which u will running ACs u will NEVER break my tank.
d solo.
celes apoc kill board |
Brother Tycho
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.29 11:11:00 -
[37]
Was never intended to be better than the other matar BS's but it gives you the option of tank and gank to a degree just setup mids and lows like you would a raven, tank in mids and a mix of diags and gyros in lows, get creative with Rigs if theres something you think the ship is lacking.
It's great being Amarr, aint it?
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Croglett
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Posted - 2006.12.29 11:17:00 -
[38]
Maelstrom is good for missions, just general PVP until it gets to the point where the npcs have reached that 25KM mark and you guns might as well be in your cargohold.
It does have 100m3 drone bay, but I dont think this is enough tbh. If maelstrom had 150m3 I would use it so much more.
It gets a thumbs up in PVE (partially)
Thumbs down in PVP - Its too expensive when tempest is only slightly worse than the maelstrom for artillery, and tempest is a lot better with ACs.
/signed maelstrom gets a damage bonus over the ROF one and 150m3 drone bay :)
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.29 11:27:00 -
[39]
In fact damage bonus is worse than rof. That is not the issue. The issue is. It hasa dual face. a shield bonus that is good for AC and bad for arties, and slow .. that is no problem for arties and very bad for AC. So it needs a better second bonus or more speed. Simple.
a shield HP bonus would make it quite good for fleet. Or 15 extra m/s (even 10) would make it a good AC boat). We need one of the two and keep the rof (otherwise tempest will outdamage maelstrom)
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
cy4n1d3
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Posted - 2006.12.29 11:35:00 -
[40]
It's nice ship, it just has crap bonuses for an arty boat. Give it damage/shield resists or damage/damage.
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Pesadel0
Vagabundos
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Posted - 2006.12.29 12:04:00 -
[41]
I bought one to mine .
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Twin blade
Minmatar
The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2006.12.29 12:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Twin blade
Originally by: Neo Providence
...
It can shield tank better than a tempest but thats about it the damage is all most the same given how temp's can load more drone's.
huh? Since when is 100m¦ less then 75m¦?
Since i became the King of math's at 4.30am.
Originally by: darth solo
Originally by: Twin blade
It sucks Tempest is better in every way.
iv been flying pests for years and i 100% guarantee id take down ur pest in a 1v1 AC fight.
and how is the pest better at tanking?. this ship has a 7.5% bonus to shield boost and 1 extra mid. if u wanna armour tank ur pest which u will running ACs u will NEVER break my tank.
d solo.
Just Nos you and use T2 drone/gun's and Jamm you to hell so you can't do any thing back and hope i can drain your cap befor you get help.
The Phoon can tank just as good as a maelstorm.
2 LAR
4 harder's
1 1600mm
Add a injector and 4 heavy nos and it will out tank a maelstorm and way out last it and still be faster and just as deadly in short range.
!
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.29 12:40:00 -
[43]
aa yehh so dont forget the 3 gyro 2 I will be fielding on the low slots that make the mael outdamage you by a LOT! And also a DCU II in low to further increase resist on shields...
Things are not that simple.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.29 13:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
It tanks disgustingly well. I was able to handle the entire 3rd stage of pirate slaughter with ease. The dps involved was simply impossible to deal with in even my Tempest Fleet, and would pop a Typhoon in seconds. I have intentionally aggroed entire levels just to see how she handles and have watched in absolute amazement as my shields have remained pegged at 99%.
actually is not that pirate slaughter is that hard... i made it in a phoon and whitout any problem...
the situations (missions) when a standard 1 lar tank phoon is not enought are veeery few and eventually ther's a dual lar option
instead i see more problems to kill ships in missions like the extravaganza when "enter" at 10 to 40km range from enemies and with ships that orbit at 25-30km.
in this situation both ACs and 1200mm are not very effective as you are going to miss a lot and with ACs you have still to await that enemies get in range.
if you fit an AB and a webber (imo quite needed to have a good dps in such situations) you end up with a so and so 3 slot tank (1 slot used for cap booster) that is probably going to be worse or at best equal than a 5 slot armor tank
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.29 14:03:00 -
[45]
One thing is for sure, theres no point in Fleet Tempests with Maelstrom around.
Maelstrom Damage > Tempest due to space for more Gyro's
Tempests Tackling > Maelstrom
Tempests Speed/Agility > Maelstrom
Tempests Space for EW > Maelstrom
Maelstroms Tank > Tempest (assuming all slots dedicated to tanking)
So if your looking for a damage dealer for gangs Maelstrom is better, even with seige the Pest is lower due to the lows for Gyro's on the Maelstrom.
But if your looking for damage dealer a phoon gets close, I think from memory Maelstrom with EMP and T2 800's using T2 HH's is about 900 DPS, a Phoon with T2 Dual 425's, T2 Seige and T2 Ogres is about 800 dps. There tanks aren't that different (1x LAR T2 + 1600 + 3x Actives + EANM + DC vs 1x XL + 30% amp + ship bonus + 3x hards + DC) but phoon can tackle and move better...
I still WTB a role for the Maelstrom.  I guess its good if you have isk + gunnery + shield skills finstead of armour + gunnery + missiles + drone skills it takes for a typhoon.
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Sebroth
Coordination Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.12.29 14:19:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ath Amon
PVE
- missions: phoon is a better pve ship with 2 out of 3 very versatile weapon systems, mael can fit a better tank but that's not really necessary, mael damage output is a bit gimped compared to phoon due to tracking issues
- ratting: any BS works well here imo the relevant thing here is cost and mael doesn't really shine in that
- complexes: mael tank can be good here, but a rokh and probably even an abbadon will perform better (speaking about BS)
PVP
- solo: not a good ship for solo pvp
- small gang: for my taste is not a very good gang ship, it needs to fit nanos/inertia in lows to approach fast, is quite vulnerable to nos, it can fit a big tank+gank but an EW approach is generally more effective
- fleet: a bit more dps/alpha and eventually hps at higher fitting price than a pest... is also going to fight in abaddon range... abaddon damage and shield tank = a lot of pain
what went wrong with this ship?
the ship is not that bad but it suffer from some problems...
it is too slow and cumbersome to be an effective AC boat and also is imo too vulnerable to NOS...
it have an useless bonus to be a good fleet boat... new fleet ships (caldari and amarr) have a good defensive and offensive bonus... is quite logical that a ship with just 1 effective bonus can't compete
arty are EXTREMELY underpowered compared to other long range turrets... they lost their alpha in these years but nothing was done to rebalance them... + 40-50% range imo will be a good solution to this problem
qft
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Never knock on Death's door; ring the doorbell and run (he hates that) |
Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2006.12.29 15:32:00 -
[47]
give it more speed, all it needs. fleets suck ac all the way
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Kinsy
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.29 16:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Twin blade
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Twin blade
Originally by: Neo Providence
...
It can shield tank better than a tempest but thats about it the damage is all most the same given how temp's can load more drone's.
huh? Since when is 100m¦ less then 75m¦?
Since i became the King of math's at 4.30am.
Originally by: darth solo
Originally by: Twin blade
It sucks Tempest is better in every way.
iv been flying pests for years and i 100% guarantee id take down ur pest in a 1v1 AC fight.
and how is the pest better at tanking?. this ship has a 7.5% bonus to shield boost and 1 extra mid. if u wanna armour tank ur pest which u will running ACs u will NEVER break my tank.
d solo.
Just Nos you and use T2 drone/gun's and Jamm you to hell so you can't do any thing back and hope i can drain your cap befor you get help.
The Phoon can tank just as good as a maelstorm.
2 LAR
4 harder's
1 1600mm
Add a injector and 4 heavy nos and it will out tank a maelstorm and way out last it and still be faster and just as deadly in short range.
No...that wont work either.
If your 1v1 why the **** for starters would you be using ECM? Even then you'd what, damp & tracking disrupt? Oh wait Malestrom can do that too...
2 NOS doesnt suck enough to make it worth your while.
Why cant i use t2 drones? Oh wait, i can. Sooo...
The guns require no cap and your doing more damage in the Malestrom (even if its slightly more its still more).
And as for the Typhoon...2 reps and 4 hardeners while your doing crap dps, cause you've barely got grid to fit heavy launchers and medium artilleries after that fit in lows. A shield tanked Maelstrom is not doing crap dps.
Finally...
All darth has to do to pop your ship is focus his mind on the system your in. Concord then open a cyno and he doomsdays your ass
Seriously, 1v1 him if you got the time.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.29 16:22:00 -
[49]
1vs1 is not for mael
you need at least a scram and a cap booster (so only 4 midslot left for tank)
you should also need an AB or a MWD and a webber to be able to get in range (2 slot left for tank)
so you are going to fit damps and armor tank or to tank with 2-3 slots
i will take a tempest or a phoon over it anyday...
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Drek Grapper
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Posted - 2006.12.29 17:04:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Now that I have had a couple off weeks running missions in one, I finally feel comfortable commenting on this ship in a PVE role.
It's really quite good overall.
highpoints:
It's got very good targeting range by default. Good enough to use 1200's out to their practical limits (assuming tech I ammo) without a sensor boost.
It does not require battleship 5 to do decent damage. I still have the better part of a month to go on battleship 5, and this is a big deal for the moment.
The drone bay is large enough to allow for some versatility. I can carry some throw away tech I's for when I am unsure of how drones may affect aggro in addition to the normal payload of tech II small and medium mission specific drones. The other option is a webber drone, which allows 1200 to hit cruisers reasonably well, even up close.
It tanks disgustingly well. I was able to handle the entire 3rd stage of pirate slaughter with ease. The dps involved was simply impossible to deal with in even my Tempest Fleet, and would pop a Typhoon in seconds. I have intentionally aggroed entire levels just to see how she handles and have watched in absolute amazement as my shields have remained pegged at 99%.
It has a very generous cap size by Minmatar standards. This allows you to run an afterburner and shield boost for an amount of time that would be impossible in other Matari ships.
The ship has proven to be reasonably flexible, and has done well with autocannon, 1200mm setups designed to tank heavy and fight at mid range, and with 1400mm sniping setups. I have used all three of these basic concepts, employing a a fair number of variations on each, and found all to be successful within their intended scope, though the ship does still seem to be missing a little something in this regard.
Lowpoints:
The two "extra" slots on my Tempest are sorely missed.
It handles like a brick. Both acceleration and top speed (even with a faction AB) are horrible. This feels more like a Caldari ship than a Matari ship when trying to dictate range and transversal.
It feels like it's missing a low slot........................................................
Price. A couple of extra 1200's are no big deal really, but dropping another 50 million on 1400mm scouts after coughing up 170 million for the hull made this ship a bit on the pricey side to get started with.
Will this ship cause any Raven pilots to start training Howitzers? Probably not. The Rokh is an excellent ship in it's own right, and their time would be better spent learning large rail spec than dabbling in Matar ships and weapons. The ship does fill a role that Minmatar battleships had been missing: heavy tank. It fills the role admirably too. Given an active tank setup, there is no other battleship that can hope to compete with this ship in terms of it's ability to laugh off insanely high incoming dps.
Looking strictly at the PVE picture with this ship, it is worth the expense, but only if you are already well versed in mission running with the Tempest IMO. The tactics really do not change much, but because of the Maelstrom's lack of agility and sluggish handling, the ship can be a bit more difficult to use to maximum effect. Maximum profits and ease of use still belong to the Raven, but if the thought of running missions in a missile boat bores you to death, this really is not the worst you could do.
Hey Tyler,
Could you post setup please? I wanna start doing 4's solo and hoping that this ship might be the alternative to the usual Raven/Gist Shld Booster/AFK scenario.
Comments in this thread have been varied to say ther least. Right now i'm thinking...not worth it. I would like to change my mind though. We all wanna fly a teir 3 BS at some stage.... Even if everyone else says its ****!
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h4rdcore
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Posted - 2006.12.29 17:37:00 -
[51]
Thing with it is, its obviously made for fleet, but then, why do we need a tanking bonus because in fleet its all about using sensorboosters and tracking comps, i mean i guess a shieldbooster is ok for a quick boost but once your into armour without a rep, u cant repair it, where as shields recharge anyway. So for fleet seems rather pointless.
In the description it says its a great Solo/small group ship. HOW BIG A LIE IS THIS?! First off, with its slow speed, bad agility and with a shield bonus it cant MWD anywhere quick, and if you do want to fit ACs then you are left with a shield bonus thats useless if you want to tackle anything (hence the solo part being stupid?) unless your armour tank, which straight away means you have a bonus not used.
Then again you could fit 1400's with close range ammo and warp to 0km? but what if there is a bubble where you have warped/jumped into? (which happens more and more with interdictors!) then you need a MWD to get out of it, which means less tank, which means why not go ACs and armour tank for solo?
Even with 8x 1400 II's with tank setup for close, you'd do a better job with a tempest, 6x ACs and a mwd simply because your faster, the ACs can track better at those closer ranges, and the damage output of the tempest + ACs is higher anyway. As for tank, if you cant track anything and your slow to get away, your easily NOSed and or run out of cap/cap boosters and die anyway...
So for PVP it seems pointless apart from MAYBE fleet, but id prefer 2 tempests for the price.
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Stakler
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Posted - 2006.12.29 17:59:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Stakler on 29/12/2006 18:03:21
I bought it, I fitted it, I rigged it, I flew it:
First imperessions:
- Amazing tank!
- Amazing Damage!
--
- Does this thing even move?
- Holy cow at the price! Around 450m (with rigs)
I tried it a bit, then I found a Typhoon from my hangar (nano one), boarded it, flew it. Omg this is the flexibility, speed and style I want, to hell with the Maelstrom!
Shortly: not for solo, boring in gangs etc. Nanophoon is much more fun to fly in PVP, whetever it's solo or gang.
Hint: Want-to-sell: rigged+fitted Maelstrom
Fit shortly: 8x 800mm Repeating Artillery II, 1x XL C5-L Booster, 1x Shield Boost Amp I, 2x invul Field II, 1x Photon Scat II, 1x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster, 3x Gyro II, 1x DCU II, 1x PDS II
Rigs: 2x Capacitor Control Circuit I, 1x <whatever is the name of the rig that reduces shield booster cycle time>
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Sadao
Minmatar
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.29 18:01:00 -
[53]
Stakler = Sadao
So contact me if you wanna buy this thing from me :P
---
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.29 19:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sadao
Stakler = Sadao
So contact me if you wanna buy this thing from me :P
You put the wrong rigs in it, what a waste.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
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Posted - 2006.12.29 21:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ath Amon
actually is not that pirate slaughter is that hard... i made it in a phoon and whitout any problem...
the situations (missions) when a standard 1 lar tank phoon is not enought are veeery few and eventually ther's a dual lar option
instead i see more problems to kill ships in missions like the extravaganza when "enter" at 10 to 40km range from enemies and with ships that orbit at 25-30km.
in this situation both ACs and 1200mm are not very effective as you are going to miss a lot and with ACs you have still to await that enemies get in range.
if you fit an AB and a webber (imo quite needed to have a good dps in such situations) you end up with a so and so 3 slot tank (1 slot used for cap booster) that is probably going to be worse or at best equal than a 5 slot armor tank
Well, I guess "easy" is pretty subjective. If you are intent on clearing the level and collecting on all those nice, juicy NPC bounties,I find tanking 1200 dps Kinetic, 250 dps Thermal to be a nightmare when armor tanking by comperison to running a shield tank on the Mael, particularly if you wanted to leave any room at all for damage mods. If you get your armor Kinetic resistance up to about 88%, 2x LAR II will deal with 1167 Kinetic Dps and nothing more than that. Looks like 2x kinetic, 1x thermal, 1x eamn II, and a DCU to reach that which leaves exactly 2 slots, which will 100% have to be a dual LAR setup. You will be reliant on cap boosters to run it, naturally, so when you run out of 400 charges, looks like it's time to warp out.
Dual LAR on a Phoon also leaves very little room up top for firepower, so you are looking at cruise and 425's. Neither of which will get modified other than by ship bonuses and skill, as there is no remaining slot for a damage mod to occupy. The lag on this mission is quite fierce once all of those npc's start chucking missiles at you, the majority of which are, by the way heavies, so the Phoon's sig is no real advantage here. This makes micro managing drone targets a real headache, and the drones are prone to do their own thing anyway when lag gets bad.
Warp in's featuring webbers are really no big deal, honest. They are nothing new, and if you were able to deal with it in a Tempest, you are able to deal with it in a Maelstrom.
This next part isn't in response to your post Ath:
The Maelstrom is far from a perfect ship, but all of the posts I see seeking to derail productive discussion of what the ship actually can do are getting tiresome. If it isn't what you had hoped for, fly something else. If it serves no purpose, and in your mind all roles are already admirably filled by the Tempest or Typhoon, fly one of those and rest secure in the knowledge that you have the perfect ship to suit your playstyle. If the Rokh is your dream ship and the Maelstrom just doesn't measure up to that, train for the Rokh. For pity's sake though, if your sum total of experience with the Maelstrom consists of "common sense" and what "seems obvious" please feel free not to share. There are already quite enough ignorant posts based on conjecture without any further contributions.
J.A.F.O.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.30 10:17:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
In fact damage bonus is worse than rof. That is not the issue. The issue is. It hasa dual face. a shield bonus that is good for AC and bad for arties, and slow .. that is no problem for arties and very bad for AC. So it needs a better second bonus or more speed. Simple.
a shield HP bonus would make it quite good for fleet. Or 15 extra m/s (even 10) would make it a good AC boat). We need one of the two and keep the rof (otherwise tempest will outdamage maelstrom)
If Maelstrom had damage bonus, Tempest won't outdamage Maelstrom ever. Let's see with normalised to number of guns of damage output(and alpha too) for each level of the bs skill
Tempest dps: 6.632 -> 7.333 -> 8.118 -> 9 -> 10
Tempest alpha: 6.3 -> 6.6 -> 6.9 -> 7.2 -> 7.5
Maelstrom(RoF) dps: 8.421 -> 8.889 -> 9.412 -> 10 -> 10.667
Maelstrom(Rof) alpha: stays 8
Maelstrom(Dmg) dps: 8.4 -> 8.8 -> 9.2 -> 9.6 -> 10
Maelstrom(Dmg) alpha: 8.4 -> 8.8 -> 9.2 -> 9.6 -> 10
So Tempest won't ever outdamage a Maelstrom with RoF bonus, but at lvl 5 the advantage is only 6.667% more dps for the maelstrom(alpha is also 6.667% more at lvl 5).
On the other hand a Maelstrom with a damage bonus will at lvl 5 have the same dps as a tempest at lvl 5 but have an alpha that is 33.33% more then the tempest. Add to that, that for gang pvp(not fleet sniping) a Tempest generally won't have many gyro's(if any) as it is armor tanking while a Maelstrom most likely shield tanks and rely on others to tackle and thus can carry much more gyro's.
Personally I think the Maelstrom is pretty decent as it is right now, there just is a lack of roles that it can do much better then any other ship. Right now it can tank insanely well with an active tank but besides that it doesn't really have anything else that another minmatar ship can't do just as well.
Changing the Rate of fire bonus to a damage bonus would imo promote the maelstrom to a good sniper with the biggest alpha currently possible for any battleship ingame, with of course a bit of an odd bonus for a sniper with a shield boost bonus, but isn't that a minmatar thing(to have odd bonuses sometimes  )
Crystal-Slave, that way?
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
MissileRus
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Posted - 2006.12.30 13:42:00 -
[57]
mealstrom: 1200mm damage mods, tank, 3 shield resist rigs. 1400mm would be to slow rof and bad tracking possibly gimping the uber tank maelstrom can have. some fit 1400mm and PDUs, i rather fit damage/tracking mods on all lows to max weapon damage then a great tank with 2 boost amps, 3invul, 3 resist rigs, and a large booster. this is just how i like it to be fitted and its uber below 100km.
1400mm belongs on the tempest, it cant tank, but it can hit to make up for it and its over 100km.
maelstrom in groups with tacklers, to act as damage support that can tank if targeted, this gives time for support to arrive or teams of the gang to do tactical stuff.. like warp in on a sniper while your tanking it with ease..
a tempest can get stuck and eaten appart, it can shoot back at snipers 100+km but it takes damage, it cant survive long for help to come, it cant tank just do damage, it cant be great support having to take care of itself to prevent destruction, better support is something that can tank aswell as deal damage. tempest is better for larger gangs where tanking has no meaning. fleets etc..
maelstrom:
mid range pwnerer
great for missions
great for smaller gangs
tanks like hell
does great damage
-
cant solo
tempest better for long range and fleet
tempest:
short and long range pwnerer
does great damage
speedy
cheap
tanks good enough with autos
-
cant tank fitting the biggest guns
fragile fitted with 1400mm
sound about right? imo we needed the mealstrom, its a great midrange ship that can tank like ****, i love it.
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4. i like pizza |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.30 14:57:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/12/2006 14:58:12
the fact that tank is useless in fleets is a misconception
tank is extremely usefull, sure maybe is not going to save you but will take more time/guns to the enemy to kill you so it will benefit for the whole fleet...
about the dps/alpha the difference is quite big, to calculate guns imo is not a valid way to compare them
you need to do a graph and compare the cumulative damage... i made it and the ROF bonus is way more benefical than a dmg...
consider also that with +dmg the mael will have same dps as a rokh that outrange it by 40+ km and outtank it by a good margin.
for pve... sure the mael is better than the pest, but the phoon is better than both, to fit cruise if forced to have a dual rep (actually i use a standard 4 hards 1 lar for almost every mission) is not a problem at all as in missions cruise missiles are waaaaaaaaay better than siege (at least post t2 torp nerf)
i also agree that probably people don't like mael because they had an idea about it, but also consider that atm mael have a (small) niche role in pvp (and mostly a situational one) for pve again phoon is better in 90% of situations...
wile minnie, after kali, totally lack a good fleet BS and to say train for Rokh imo is not a "solution", for the time involved to train T2 hybrids and cause there are some people that chose to fly minnie ships and i don't see why they should be not "allowed" to partecipate in fleet battles cause of this choice.
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.30 15:37:00 -
[59]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 30/12/2006 15:39:48
Minmatar whine threads always make me laugh. Our corp has a large number of very skilled Minmatar pilots as do BoB and the old G (D2). They are some of the best, is it simpily because they're more skillful than everyone else? No, its because they know how to fit a Minmatar ship properly and capitalize on its strengths.
The Maelstrom was doomed before anyone even flew the bloody thing because it got whined about more than any other tier 3 BS. It's a fantastic ship, most of you just think it isn't because you read these bleedin forums.
Originally by: anonymous
If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Zyrtan Keb'Lektar
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.12.30 15:54:00 -
[60]
Maelstrom with 3-4 nos, ACs and a heavy tank is a ***** to kill and great for small gangs.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.30 15:58:00 -
[61]
I just think a minority of Minmatar pilots on these forums incite false negativity on their ships.
It's been a long running joke hasnt it? "Minmatar are crap LOL!!" Not really, just people taking these forums too seriously and trying to setup their Minmatar ships to succeed in roles the other races are better at.
Originally by: anonymous
If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
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Posted - 2006.12.30 16:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: welsh wizard
It's been a long running joke hasnt it? "Minmatar are crap LOL!!" Not really, just people taking these forums too seriously and trying to setup their Minmatar ships to succeed in roles the other races are better at.
Meanwhile, many broken minmatar ships have been fixed or at least improved: Cyclone, wolf, jaguar, typhoon... Most minmatar ships are now good and competitive, you won't hear reasonable people stating something else.
While many minmatar ships are good, I think that the maelstrom is not. And even if it were a good ship, it's not a good minmatar ship, because it is slow, unagile, and geared towards tanking.
As for the nos + tank setup, it's nothing good with the maelstrom, it's something good in Revelations and that's about it. It's still not worth training your minmatar BS skill and investing in a tier 3 BS "just for that".
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.30 16:28:00 -
[63]
Originally by: welsh wizard
I just think a minority of Minmatar pilots on these forums incite false negativity on their ships.
It's been a long running joke hasnt it? "Minmatar are crap LOL!!" Not really, just people taking these forums too seriously and trying to setup their Minmatar ships to succeed in roles the other races are better at.
What negativity? I can count on one hand (like the other races) the number of ships that could do with a change. It's not so much "it sucks" as "its not matari enough" complaints that I see.
I agree with NB, why use it in fleets? when a Tempest can do 90% of its performance for 50m less ship cost and 20-30m less in gun cost, a shield boost bonus isn't really a great reason, higher base hp is helpful, but then any higher tier ship has higher base stats. This was the orginal goal of Tux's for this ship remember, hence he made it have longer lock range than pest and much slower/heavier.
Maelstrom just isn't a Matari style of ship, its more like what a Rohk would of been a few years ago when Caldari had the shield boost bonus but was decided it wasn't good enough  . So many matari style options and we get a big heavy tank ship with no real role but just "tanks well" so is left as is even after Tux himself said the bonus was rubbish for the role...
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
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Posted - 2006.12.30 19:53:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/12/2006 14:58:12
the fact that tank is useless in fleets is a misconception
tank is extremely usefull, sure maybe is not going to save you but will take more time/guns to the enemy to kill you so it will benefit for the whole fleet...
about the dps/alpha the difference is quite big, to calculate guns imo is not a valid way to compare them
you need to do a graph and compare the cumulative damage... i made it and the ROF bonus is way more benefical than a dmg...
consider also that with +dmg the mael will have same dps as a rokh that outrange it by 40+ km and outtank it by a good margin.
for pve... sure the mael is better than the pest, but the phoon is better than both, to fit cruise if forced to have a dual rep (actually i use a standard 4 hards 1 lar for almost every mission) is not a problem at all as in missions cruise missiles are waaaaaaaaay better than siege (at least post t2 torp nerf)
i also agree that probably people don't like mael because they had an idea about it, but also consider that atm mael have a (small) niche role in pvp (and mostly a situational one) for pve again phoon is better in 90% of situations...
wile minnie, after kali, totally lack a good fleet BS and to say train for Rokh imo is not a "solution", for the time involved to train T2 hybrids and cause there are some people that chose to fly minnie ships and i don't see why they should be not "allowed" to partecipate in fleet battles cause of this choice.
When I say "train for the Rokh" Ath, what I mean by that isn't that the Maelstrom shouldn't be useful in a role, what I mean is that to say it needs to be useful at the exact role for which the Rokh is suited is IMO, wrong. If the Rokh's intended role is an exact match for what you wanted from a ship, train for it. Do we really want all of the tier 3's to be carbon copies aside from cosmetics?
We already had a sniping platform, and a good one. It seems odd to me that the introduction of a (for artillery at least) close range, heavy tanking, fire support platform would suddenly, in the minds of many, obselete the Tempest for that role, or in any way make it less good. The Tempest was already a good "fleet" ship, but it's slot layout, limited grid, and weak cap really do not allow it to be a good heavy tank (while mounting artillery folks) for slugging it out at ranges under 85km. So now we have a ship that does do that. I really don't know what additional changes are in store, so the usefulness of that role may not have been fully revealed with Revalations relative to how it may be valued in a couple of months.
I'll also agree that post torp nerf they are not what they were, but a double painter setup works miracles on that too. If I had it to do over again, knowing a nerf was coming down, and that it would not only bring the T2 torp into line, but make it all but useless, I'd have trained cruise, but meh, it happens to all weapon systems at some point. The real loss in the setup with dual reps is the damage mods, and the need to dedicate nearly everything to the capacitor just to run it.
As for which ship is "best" PVE, that may come down to skill points and playstyles. I find my mission completion times are faster in a Mael, though not yet as fast as they could be as I am still training battleship 5, and am still at large projectile 4. 7 minutes for Sansha's spies, and 9 minutes for Right hand of Zazzmatazz may not be record breakers, but they are a couple minutes faster on each than I managed in the Phoon.
The only race I feel a little bad for when it comes to the tier 3 releases is the Amarr. More of the same. The Gallante got a better ship out of the deal than many give it credit for, the Caldari got a ship that fills a role they have never had a ship for before now, and our ship, well, at least it's different than what we already had.
J.A.F.O.
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Mr Bright
untaught
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.12.31 08:04:00 -
[65]
Hmmmm what is the market reaction to the mealstrom - just curious to see if there are a massive difference in the quantity of ships sold between the new tier3 BS.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.31 10:56:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ath Amon
about the dps/alpha the difference is quite big, to calculate guns imo is not a valid way to compare them
you need to do a graph and compare the cumulative damage... i made it and the ROF bonus is way more benefical than a dmg...
consider also that with +dmg the mael will have same dps as a rokh that outrange it by 40+ km and outtank it by a good margin.
No, the difference between maelstrom and Tempest is 6.67% more for the Maelstrom. Using absolute values won't make a difference to the relative values. sure if a Tempest has done 10000 damage a Maelstrom will have done 10666 damage(in theory, as guns have good and bad hits it can vary), but that still is 6.67%.
Yes, in dps terms a RoF bonus is better then a damage bonus, I admitted as much. But again guess what... The difference between the cumulative damage with RoF bonus and with damage bonus doesn't change, it stays 6.667%(again the chance based might give a slightly different result if the sample size isn't large enough)
You're right with the Rokh, Maelstrom with damage bonus does only 5.7% more dps then the Rokh, while Maelstrom with Rate of fire bonus does 12.7% more dps then Rokh. So why do I want to see a damage bonus on the Maelstrom anyway? Simple, volley damage(aka alpha strike). A maelstrom with a RoF bonus has a volley that is 20% lower then the volley of a maelstrom with a damage bonus, The Rokh doesn't even compete with a the Rof maelstrom in volley damage. If I would have the choice between a 5000 volley or a 4000 volley but have to trade off on dps, I'll chose the 5000 volley. Not only that but it would change the Maelstrom from a decent well-tanked minmatar ship to a well-tanked minmatar ship that has something it can do significantly better then the Tempest, while at the same time not denying the Tempest a role(since the mael's dps won't be any better then of the Tempest, assuming same n¦ of gyro's)
Originally by: Ath Amon
for pve... sure the mael is better than the pest, but the phoon is better than both, to fit cruise if forced to have a dual rep (actually i use a standard 4 hards 1 lar for almost every mission) is not a problem at all as in missions cruise missiles are waaaaaaaaay better than siege (at least post t2 torp nerf)
pve is imo irrelevant, for pve most people use what is most efficient for them. Personally I've been using Sleipnir quite a bit, it tanks well and has good dps while also, by virtue of using cruiser guns, scoring good hits against cruisers and frigates.
Originally by: Ath Amon
i also agree that probably people don't like mael because they had an idea about it, but also consider that atm mael have a (small) niche role in pvp (and mostly a situational one) for pve again phoon is better in 90% of situations...
wile minnie, after kali, totally lack a good fleet BS and to say train for Rokh imo is not a "solution", for the time involved to train T2 hybrids and cause there are some people that chose to fly minnie ships and i don't see why they should be not "allowed" to partecipate in fleet battles cause of this choice.
Personally I don't have a Maelstrom atm, the additional cost and the need for another 2 guns(filling up the 2 extra highs) makes the Maelstrom in the current form not worthwhile for me, for me the only change i'd like to see for Maelstrom is the rate of fire bonus changed to a damage bonus(just like was done for the Harbinger and the Abaddon, for different reason sure but still that's a minor breach of the rules concerning lasers, so why not for projectiles)
True, there is the option of just FotM(yes Flavour of the Month) training but that's not how I work, nor should it be a requirement of anyone to do so, in order to be competitive.
Crystal-Slave, that way?
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
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