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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2659
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Posted - 2015.11.03 21:27:38 -
[91] - Quote
aldhura wrote:I really think the mooring feature doesn't make sense. You are basically stuck in the cap ship. I have read that once you leave the moored ship in become vulnerable and your pod is moored, that will mean, as I read it anyway, you are basically stuck in that capital ship. I don't have one anymore, but means there will be no point in getting one. Something like being able to switch ships for a couple hours will be a better approach.
What will happen to all our current POS's and pos modules? will we get a "free" swap out for the new structures ? or are we now stuck with more junk we can't get rid of? Dock your Cap ship in a large Citadel. It's pretty easy. |
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:07:14 -
[92] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:Everything POS do Citadels to better.. Including dying.
The point Nevyn made is not really being widely discussed yet its very critical to why citadels are better than POS. They will almost always be worth shooting. A stick is a stick.. its a time consuming multiday(if stronted) mess of utter BS. A citadel is a loot pinata that gives a carrot at the end of the grind.
I'm a bit worried the automatic reinforcment timer are going to be a deterrent by itself - I for one wont go bash for the lulz or for 300 mil a medium citadel that only look abandoned and might fight back, forcing me to show not in a "bash fit" but in a "pvp fit", when in the same timeframe I can go run some null/wh exploration sites for at least 100 mil a hour in relative safety in a ship that cost at best 30 mil.
Remember that when the cap changes will go live you wont be able to refit in combat, so your bash fit will be your tomb too.
To cap the dps of a medium citadel you need 4 battleship (or attack battlecruisers) or 1 dread, and if something goes wrong you risk to lose more then you are going to gain if you destroy it. I'm sure you wont risk your Moros to bash for the lulz or for 300-400 mil in loot a medium citadel, or even risk 4 battlecruisers worth the half you are going to gain. You wont be ewar immune in your moros, they just need to break your target, drain your cap and slowly chew your down.
My point is destroying citadel for a profit is not the same of doing it with dead pos. The risk reward ratio is way different, and with different I don't mean "wrong", I just mean different. Surely at the start we are going to see a lot of citadel destroyed just because they are new and the metagame will be destroying them, but slowly people will tag them as "a boring grind not worth the effort" and just let them rot in space.
Obviously destroying an active citadel has a totally different purpose and meaning, and risking your ship to inflict a logistic damage to your opponenent has no real isk value. My talk and concern is only about inactive ones, active one have already plenty of reasons to be destroyed. |
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:10:13 -
[93] - Quote
xttz wrote:Soldarius wrote:All the Citadels are destructible. If you want to remove an abandoned citadel, blow it up. Since it's abandoned, it should be trivial.
It has already been stated that the old structures (outposts and POSes) are being removed. So any dead sticks will magically vanish. There should be a mechanic for unused structures to become more vulnerable; perhaps if no one docks / tethers at them for XX days the damage mitigation cap is lifted or the structure is vulnerable 24/7. Remember that this is a long-standing complaint about poses, and new structures are even worse. At least poses ran out of fuel eventually and didn't keep entering new reinforcement timers without owner interaction. As things stand right now, Citadels are shaping up to be far worse in terms of abandoned space debris that starbases ever were.
I'm very glad to see I'm not the only one to think it that way. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2659
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:11:42 -
[94] - Quote
Roberta Gastoni wrote:
My point is destroying citadel for a profit is not the same of doing it with dead pos. The risk reward ratio is way different, and with different I don't mean "wrong", I just mean different. Surely at the start we are going to see a lot of citadel destroyed just because they are new and the metagame will be destroying them, but slowly people will tag them as "a boring grind not worth the effort" and just let them rot in space.
Please explain to me what profit you make killing a POS Tower that is dead. Not one that has gone offline with modules still anchored, but just the tower hanging there.
And how much DPS you have to put on the grid to kill it in the same timeframe.
It's easier to kill a Citadel, and you get profit. |
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:52:34 -
[95] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Please explain to me what profit you make killing a POS Tower that is dead. Not one that has gone offline with modules still anchored, but just the tower hanging there.
And how much DPS you have to put on the grid to kill it in the same timeframe.
It's easier to kill a Citadel, and you get profit.
In fact I've made the example of a control tower with offline anchored modules, as today there's no purpose of destroying the control tower.
Yet the whole idea of "you make profit out of it" doesn't hold up, because the gain compared to the amount of effort required is off.
If you go read the dev blogs, at the dps cap you need to nuke it for 30 min at least, and the dps is at least 5 battleship for the medium and 15 for the large. These are not my numbers, they come from the dev blog. These structures will go in reinforcment mode 2 times (for 24 hours i think) and pop on the third day.
Now depending on the vulnerability windows, assuming you are not sporting the top dps, you will have much likely from one to two hours to send it in reinforced mode. Is it really good money bashing for 3 nights, alone with your alts or with friends, for 1 hour or more each a citadel that might drop around 300 mil for a medium? Surely you wont have 15 battleship alts or 3 dread alts to bash a Large Citadel, so you will have split the loot. Also mind, these numbers are much likely calculated on "top dps fits", and I reiterate, you'll be dead if caught in pvp with a fit like that.
So for me, as today, if i'm going to see a citadel in my wh or null I'm not going to destroy it for the loot, but if I'm going to destroy it is going to be because it's a threat to me. If it turns out to be owned by an inactive corp, for all I care, it can rot in space forever, and for the money the combat anomalies / relic sites / data sites are enough of a loot pinata ready to be popped. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2660
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:42:32 -
[96] - Quote
So you take the best possible example of loot for a POS, which is highly rare. And then compare it to the worst possible example of loot for a Citadel. And then compare the loot from a medium against the number of people you need for a large which drops ten times the loot......
Then claim it's not worth it because you don't get out of bed for less than 100 million/hour.
Wow, just wow. |
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:46:52 -
[97] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So you take the best possible example of loot for a POS, which is highly rare. And then compare it to the worst possible example of loot for a Citadel. And then compare the loot from a medium against the number of people you need for a large which drops ten times the loot......
Then claim it's not worth it because you don't get out of bed for less than 100 million/hour.
Wow, just wow.
Can you quote the part I say those things, because I cannot find them in my post. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2660
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:54:36 -
[98] - Quote
Offline pos with anchored modules. Citadel with no jobs running. You then talk about 300 mil loot from a M Citadel (Which is low from the information we have, not even average), but then talk about needing 15 people in the same sentence for a Large, without mentioning that the large actually will be dropping 10 times the loot roughly, so 3.5 billion - 4 billion depending on modules.
So yea, you totally were coming up with the worst possible scenario to claim it wasn't worth attacking a citadel. |
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:00:31 -
[99] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Offline pos with anchored modules. Citadel with no jobs running. You then talk about 300 mil loot from a M Citadel (Which is low from the information we have, not even average), but then talk about needing 15 people in the same sentence for a Large, without mentioning that the large actually will be dropping 10 times the loot roughly, so 3.5 billion - 4 billion depending on modules.
So yea, you totally were coming up with the worst possible scenario to claim it wasn't worth attacking a citadel.
Go read again the dev blog on how the loot inside a citadel is handled. You will see that unless you hit a loot pinata of a big corp with a lot of jobs running (so active, and I repeat we are speaking of inactive ones) or a citadel that had a lot of raw materials stored, what you get is pretty much streamlined. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2660
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:09:35 -
[100] - Quote
Yes, 700 Mil Citadel + modules = 350-400 mil loot for a medium. Which takes you 3 people for a total of 3 hours, or 6 people for 1.5 hours. Since CCP have said you will get drops from a citadel based on it's mineral value and the modules will drop like normal. Which is what I've been assuming that there will be no jobs running.
However the normal dead POS stick has no modules attached to it either, and you get zero drops from a POS stick.
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Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:29:52 -
[101] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Yes, 700 Mil Citadel + modules = 350-400 mil loot for a medium. Which takes you 3 people for a total of 3 hours, or 6 people for 1.5 hours. Since CCP have said you will get drops from a citadel based on it's mineral value and the modules will drop like normal. Which is what I've been assuming that there will be no jobs running.
However the normal dead POS stick has no modules attached to it either, and you get zero drops from a POS stick.
However all of this is off topic to my post, you are against the idea of giving the citadel an inactivity timer just because in your opinion they wont survive that long, not because the idea is bad per se, am I right? If that's your point, I think it has been made clear, and we can move on with more opinions from other people.
Also we can agree to "disagree" on if destroying an inactive one is worth our time or not, but this is related to our play styles, therefore subjective matters, and not to objective matters. |
aldhura
Bartledannians
9
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:35:15 -
[102] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:aldhura wrote:I really think the mooring feature doesn't make sense. You are basically stuck in the cap ship. I have read that once you leave the moored ship in become vulnerable and your pod is moored, that will mean, as I read it anyway, you are basically stuck in that capital ship. I don't have one anymore, but means there will be no point in getting one. Something like being able to switch ships for a couple hours will be a better approach.
What will happen to all our current POS's and pos modules? will we get a "free" swap out for the new structures ? or are we now stuck with more junk we can't get rid of? Dock your Cap ship in a large Citadel. It's pretty easy.
In a c1-3 wh ????
Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6104254#post6104254
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2661
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:50:32 -
[103] - Quote
aldhura wrote: In a c1-3 wh ????
Build the M, Build the large in the M (Or in the Factory structure whatever that is). The same way you did with the Cap in the first place. |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1413
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Posted - 2015.11.04 15:22:22 -
[104] - Quote
Fact remains that Citadels can be much more easily destroyed than a POS. And Citadels won't need to take up a moon. They can be anchored anywhere in space.
Since the cap for a medium is 4000dps, bring 4 sentry domis and have at it. If you don't feel the reward is worth the time, don't. Your choice.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Kenny Powers Zanjoahir
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
10
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Posted - 2015.11.05 12:02:57 -
[105] - Quote
How close can one light a cyno to a citadel? |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
736
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Posted - 2015.11.05 12:49:00 -
[106] - Quote
Will there be new skills to control structure weapons, and if so when will be able to find out the details / pre-reqs? |
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:22:39 -
[107] - Quote
xttz wrote:Will there be new skills to control structure weapons, and if so when will be able to find out the details / pre-reqs?
I read somewhere, I don't remember where, you wont need any skills and the actual skill is going to be refunded. |
aldhura
Bartledannians
9
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Posted - 2015.11.05 21:47:03 -
[108] - Quote
Roberta Gastoni wrote:xttz wrote:Will there be new skills to control structure weapons, and if so when will be able to find out the details / pre-reqs? I read somewhere, I don't remember where, you wont need any skills and the actual skill is going to be refunded. EDIT: Found in csm notes: Will my old POS defense skills work? No. They are going to require a new line of skills to operate, but most likely use existing gunnery and / or missile support skills. More details as we get them.
That will be a first, we were never given SP back when DSP's were taken out of the game or when you no longer needed anchoring 5 to train starbase defense.
Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6104254#post6104254
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Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.11.05 22:21:46 -
[109] - Quote
aldhura wrote: That will be a first, we were never given SP back when DSP's were taken out of the game or when you no longer needed anchoring 5 to train starbase defense.
As soon as I'll find it I'll link it, but it's either a refound or free skills, like they did with the drones.
I believe from what i read there are going to be something like a "Structure Weapon Operation" skill for the weapon / high slots and a "Structure Defense Operation" skill for the middle / low slots. Regardless we get the sp back or we get the new skill at the level of the old one we are going to win. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2668
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Posted - 2015.11.05 22:50:55 -
[110] - Quote
aldhura wrote:[quote=Roberta Gastoni] That will be a first, we were never given SP back when DSP's were taken out of the game or when you no longer needed anchoring 5 to train starbase defense. Because the skill still existed in the game and did other things for you. Any time CCP have actually removed a skill from the game entirely they have refunded it.
Though they may decide it makes more sense to turn it into one of the related skills for citadels, who knows. |
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aldhura
Bartledannians
9
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Posted - 2015.11.05 23:53:35 -
[111] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:aldhura wrote:[quote=Roberta Gastoni] That will be a first, we were never given SP back when DSP's were taken out of the game or when you no longer needed anchoring 5 to train starbase defense. Because the skill still existed in the game and did other things for you. Any time CCP have actually removed a skill from the game entirely they have refunded it. Though they may decide it makes more sense to turn it into one of the related skills for citadels, who knows.
CCP's perception, and well yours, of the extra value of the skills. I have no use for Anchoring 5 and whatever the skill was for DSP's. You can very easily with the right ship scan down just about everything with lvl3 scanning skills.
Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6104254#post6104254
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2668
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Posted - 2015.11.06 00:14:28 -
[112] - Quote
aldhura wrote:
CCP's perception, and well yours, of the extra value of the skills. I have no use for Anchoring 5 and whatever the skill was for DSP's. You can very easily with the right ship scan down just about everything with lvl3 scanning skills.
Just because you had no use for the features doesn't mean they didn't exist. CCP have been entirely consistent on their approach in such cases, and yes, some people do end up with things they wouldn't have trained. I don't need Anchoring V myself and would have never trained it, but I did want Starbase Defence Management, and judged Anchoring V worth training for that. And so did you. |
Skyleth Bergen
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
11
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Posted - 2015.11.07 23:54:20 -
[113] - Quote
I thought I'd put this here instead of a new thread...
There's been some speculation as to what exactly will happen to faction towers, bpcs, and faction tower module bpcs and it seems like the jury is still out, but they won't be transformed into any of the new structure or module bpcs.
As an alternative, I wonder if you'd consider exchanging some of them for skins. For example, instead of giving me isk for my large true sansha tower, just give me an i.o.u. on a potential citadel or other structure skin in the future corresponding to the faction item. It's a nice reward and doesn't actually inject more isk for potentially stockpiles of items that are not being used. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would simply be happy to get a skin instead. |
Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
176
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Posted - 2015.11.08 03:23:25 -
[114] - Quote
Converting faction towers to skins for citadels would be a cheap and cost effective compromises to the player base. No direct long term value would be added to the game and the functional cosmetic nature of the skins would satisfy a majority of POS owners. |
Lotala
DLM Enterprises Advent of Fate
8
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Posted - 2015.11.08 08:51:15 -
[115] - Quote
A quick disposable version of the observation array that offers certain features to support black ops operations. It should be more disposable then a mobile depot but less disposable then a small pos. It will need to be quickly erectable (say 5 minutes) and offer reffiting services. Potential features could be service as a covert cynobeacon, delay local, and immune to dscan (though still probable). It would have no reinforce period and few if any weapons. |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
7856
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Posted - 2015.11.08 18:04:23 -
[116] - Quote
Okay then. Questions, comments, concerns, ideas.
1) Has it been decided whether Large Citadels will take freighters to deploy or not? CCP keep flip flopping on it and I'd really like a concrete answer so I know whether or not I need to start building a freighter in my wormhole. I'd obviously like them to be deployable by orca, but whichever way it is, we need a concrete answer so we can start preparing.
2) Has there been talk about how large citadels will be built? Currently there is no POS structure large enough to build one inside. Meaning for wormholers, they have to bring in a medium and build the large at the medium, that's a bit of a pain in the ass. I'd like if there was a temporary structure introduced for poses that let us build the new structures at them, just to ease the transitional period.
3) When you anchor a citadel, it instantly becomes invulnerable for 24 hours. This means a ninja-hauler can jump into your system, drop the citadel, and run and hide. They don't have to defend it, and they know exactly when the 15 minute window is after that 24 hour period, so they can have their fleet ready. In a wormhole the only counterplay to this would be to maintain hole control for the entire time and keep them from slipping a fleet inside. I really feel that there should be some immediate vulnerability period when you first start anchoring the structure. The system defenders should have a chance to totally headshot the fetal citadel if you don't protect it for say, the first 15-30 minutes. Having a short vulnerability window like towers do, it forces the attackers to actually invest forces in protecting and securing a beachhead.
4) When drilling rigs totally change the mechanics of moon mining, can we get moon mining in wormholes? I'm assuming it will be a much more active process then the current "set up tower > profit" is, so I think it could be balanced with wormholes in mind.
Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
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aldhura
Bartledannians
11
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Posted - 2015.11.08 18:57:55 -
[117] - Quote
I still have a question on what will happen to the current POS"s and mods, will we be stuck with stuff we can't sell. Also, what will happen to all the dead sticks littering all of new eden
Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6150832#post6150832
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xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
747
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Posted - 2015.11.08 19:31:42 -
[118] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote: 1) Has it been decided whether Large Citadels will take freighters to deploy or not? CCP keep flip flopping on it and I'd really like a concrete answer so I know whether or not I need to start building a freighter in my wormhole. I'd obviously like them to be deployable by orca, but whichever way it is, we need a concrete answer so we can start preparing.
The last devblog specifically said L and XL citadels would require a freighter to deploy, and this was intentional for lower class wormholes. However they won't be on TQ for at least 4 months yet, so there's plenty of time to source a freighter hull yet.
Saede Riordan wrote: 2) Has there been talk about how large citadels will be built? Currently there is no POS structure large enough to build one inside. Meaning for wormholers, they have to bring in a medium and build the large at the medium, that's a bit of a pain in the ass. I'd like if there was a temporary structure introduced for poses that let us build the new structures at them, just to ease the transitional period.
This also seems to be intentional by CCP. There's also no point in introducing new POS structures when the whole point of Citadels is as the first step to superseding them. Eventually all POS will be removed, so any new add-on for them will be a temporary solution at best and only serve to help entrench people who use older, easier game mechanics over those who come later.
Saede Riordan wrote: 3) When you anchor a citadel, it instantly becomes invulnerable for 24 hours. This means a ninja-hauler can jump into your system, drop the citadel, and run and hide. They don't have to defend it, and they know exactly when the 15 minute window is after that 24 hour period, so they can have their fleet ready. In a wormhole the only counterplay to this would be to maintain hole control for the entire time and keep them from slipping a fleet inside. I really feel that there should be some immediate vulnerability period when you first start anchoring the structure. The system defenders should have a chance to totally headshot the fetal citadel if you don't protect it for say, the first 15-30 minutes. Having a short vulnerability window like towers do, it forces the attackers to actually invest forces in protecting and securing a beachhead.
I believe they have said that newly anchored structures would show on global overview until secured. This gives everyone nearby a chance to notice and prepare to deal with a new structure.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2680
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Posted - 2015.11.08 19:37:20 -
[119] - Quote
aldhura wrote:I still have a question on what will happen to the current POS"s and mods, will we be stuck with stuff we can't sell. Also, what will happen to all the dead sticks littering all of new eden POS have a year or two before they are phased out since they won't be removed till after all the new structures are in. Citadels are just the first of about eight different structures. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
316
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Posted - 2015.11.08 20:44:44 -
[120] - Quote
Kenny Powers Zanjoahir wrote:How close can one light a cyno to a citadel?
Right now, you can light in tether range, so you are safe......
However, that is not a done deal
One other suggestion is to light in tether range, but combat ships (JF, freighter and rorqual exempt) get a 60 sec weapons timer when they jump in |
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