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The ME slots issue yet again!

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Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.11 17:10:00 - [61] I think there are several pos corps that give you a deposit on your print (collateral) and while its typically not the full value (they don't want to buy the prints from you) its a fair compensation for surrendering a print you have paid for. Romeo was one bad apple in a bunch of good ones. He' (and others of his ilk) can be negated with just a bit of fore thought and negotiation ahead of time ... Trading 101
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.11 17:11:00 - [62] Originally by: ToxicFire Edited by: ToxicFire on 11/01/2007 17:05:58 Originally by: Kaaii stuff... Could you answer why you won't use player pos labs? Trading 101
Evil RedEye Minmatar Visions of Evil	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:24:00 - [63] A small pos in a 0.5 is very easy to run, its costing me what... 10mill a week to fuel, and you can fit 3 Mobile Labs onto one pos (would fill the CPU so you wont be able to add anything incase you need to defend the pos which is very unlikely) 1 Mobile Lab provides 3 ME slots, 3 Time Research Slots, 5 Invention Slots and 1 Copy Slot. In respsonse to your ideas 1. That could work but then you'll just hit the problem again, all regions will become swamped and the new slots will appear and then they'll all be in use forever and then off to another region we go. 2. Half of that is in place but an advanced lab would be awesome. 3. And that would stop Veterans how? Veterans will more than likely have a high corp/faction standing anyway so that wont limit them very much. 4. Cant really see that going down well with vets and also they'll just create new characters to research for them then. Not bad ideas but as with most ideas, there's always a flaw hidden somewhere. Maybe someone will come up with something that'll benefit all and that will work forever.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:28:00 - [64] It's not so much an issue as somthing you personally don't like. People who want to research straight away have the options laid out infront of them. Faster research with no queues, the challenge is that it's expensive (relatively speaking). Those that don't have the isk or are not willing to spend it can still research, they just have to accept they need to wait. Things are not always meant to be convienient or readily available. It's part of the overall challenge. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:30:00 - [65] i agree that relative to the population, a SMALL increase would be good. nothing to upset the balance, just an overall increase in slots in empire, and elsewhere. sure the slots will be filled instantly, but hey, there will be MORE slots filled instantly, so more research will still get done. the population of the server has risen quite a bit over the years, and growth in-line with this population should be part of it. ========================================== Iy
ToxicFire Warlords Corp The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:36:00 - [66] Think of it like any drive-thru if their customer base suddenly trippled would they stick with using one service window to serve the increased ammount of customers... now before you knew it builders would be round putting in new service windows and the company would hire more staff. Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
ToxicFire Warlords Corp The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Wild Rho It's not so much an issue as somthing you personally don't like. People who want to research straight away have the options laid out infront of them. Faster research with no queues, the challenge is that it's expensive (relatively speaking). Those that don't have the isk or are not willing to spend it can still research, they just have to accept they need to wait. Things are not always meant to be convienient or readily available. It's part of the overall challenge. Also a good comeback to this is if thats the case why is it that a year ago you could quite easily get a ME slot :P Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:50:00 - [68] Different time and a different situation. In all honesty I think back then the whole research and manufacturing system was largely ignored while the focus was on combat and similar systems. It used to be someone could lock up a whole stations facilities by putting bpos in for an insanely long research times and no one could do anything about it (heck there was a time people would sell office space and lab/factory slots in high sec). When they wanted to do some real research they could pop the bpo out, do the research then put it back in. These days we have alternate means to conduct research (i.e. mobile labs). On top of that the R&M system has been improved. You can no longer lock up a slot indefinetly as there is a maximum time a bpo can be in research, on top of that you can queue research jobs meaning once one players job is done yours get installed and started automatically. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
WhoreMonger ShipYards Inc	Posted - 2007.01.12 12:57:00 - [69] I'd like to offer our services in the meantime. We offer insurance on BPO's. Were no massive and were mainly dealing with hundreds (literally) of rig BPO's at the moment (And consquently I believe THAT is the lab issue at the moment NOT population increase) Click the link below and talk to Mackite regarding any BPO's you would like researched. We will do our best to get any research done for you ASAP. W n. A *****master. ShipYards Inc Research Service's
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.12 13:03:00 - [70] Originally by: ToxicFire the more slots will just get filled instantly.... if that was truly the case all the ME slots would have been filled constantly when the population was 10k we all know that wasn't the case so anyone with that kinda come back is talking complete bs. Actually, before the adjusting lab prices, it was the case that every slot was filled constantly - that was the whole reason behind it's introduction. I would also remind you that there was a significant boost to the number of lab slots at that time as well. The price increase formula encouraged there to always be 1 or 2 slots free in each station - otherwise the price would go up. That meant that the lab price would always stabilise at a point where demand at that price left those slots free. While that made it look like there were "free" slots, those slots were not really practical to use, due to the price issue. The real issue has come from the shift away from price control, to queue control of demand. As we've seen in many areas of the game (the old 3 month queues for a cheap NAGA HAC come to mind), players will wait a long time for something that is slightly cheaper or less effort. This makes queue control a weak controller of demand, and means that queues will grow to excessive levels before demand is sufficiently suppressed. This also makes it impossible for NPC and POS labs to compete economically, because most players are unwilling to put a value on the time waited. What I'd really like to see is price adjustments come back into the slots, formulated in such a way that it results in there always being 1-2 slots with less than 1 day queue, in the same way there was always 1-2 available in the old system. I would suggest that NPC prices high enough to achieve that would make POS labs look much more attractive, and we'd see a lot more of them, which would directly ease demand on the NPC ones. The two would then be able to compete directly on price. Originally by: Eponine Astarte lab slots and T2 prices are both related problems. They both came out with a certain number of players in Eve. Yet as the population exploded suddenly lab slots and T2 modules/ships became rarer/higher priced due to increased demand but fixed supply. CCP has deemed it appropriate to fix T2 prices through invention and a reseeding of the lottery in order to bring supply more in line with what demand used to be. I don't see why logically they should not do the same with station lab slots The equivalent to Invention in the lab situation are POS Labs. Invention requires you to put constant effort and isk to keep supplied with low efficiency t2 print copies, and access is currently heavily limited by the low spawn rates of required items and skills. POS labs require you to put in constant effort and isk to keep supplied with more expensive, but faster working lab slots. Access is open to anyone with a hauler and sufficient isk. If we're comparing these two situations, I'd say the lab slot issue fared much better than T2 prints in terms of the accessibility of the solution. Originally by: Vasiliyan This favours alts, not new players. The solution I'd favour is to fix POS labs so that (a) personal jobs can be installed in them and (b) they can be rented to the general public; this creates profitable businesses for PLAYERS instead of NPCs. Unfortunately, there are problems with "public" anything when it's related to POS, because POS are, by definition, privately operated facilities. None of the hangar access, POS administration etc is designed with public access to facilities in mind. Yes, I know there's a "make public" button in the UI, but frankly it would take a huge overhaul of access permissions etc for it to be even vaguely viable. So while it would be a nice thing to see, there's a veritable minefield of problems to navigate through, and I can't see that public POS slots will ever be as reliable as NPC ones. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Shocknawe Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2007.01.12 13:13:00 - [71] The way empire POSs require corp standing and regular POS require pretty sensitive roles to operate contributes to the problem. The is basically no way to get high faction standing for a corp unless theres only a few people in it. Security reason also prevent most larger corps from giving out POS roles. If POS could be launched for self or CCP would give some love on the way corp POS roles are currently worked things could be alot better.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.12 13:32:00 - [72] Originally by: Vasiliyan I can also see a case for creating "rapid turnaround" public labs, which can only be used for jobs shorter than 24 hours. Unfortunately, a period like 24-hours is just right for people to just put in another level every day. Queues would soon build up in those too. They wouldn't be as long as in the "full" slots, but they would probably get to around 4-5 days easily. An alternative solution in the same vein would be "junior researcher" lab slots, which could only research the first X levels of a print (with X being somewhere around 5). The majority of the benefit of research is gained in those first levels anyway, so these would let people get a foot in the door while the longer jobs of the experienced researchers (and the potentially pointless ME100+ jobs) stayed in the "senior researcher" slots. Of course, a more radical extention of that would be to apply a level cap on all NPC slots to force people to use POS labs for higher level research. Though that's not something I think is particularly desirable. As an aside, there is also a question around the number of slots in each type of lab. Not so much NPC labs, which were set like that for a reason, but POS labs. Lets face it, very few people set up a POS lab array for the 3 PE slots it gives. I suspect that in the majority of POS, labs are set up the 3 ME slots get constant use, the copying slot gets run to defray some of the POS operating cost, and the PE slots are very rarely used. This means that many 1-researcher lab POS's are actually running 21 slots, of which only 9 are really desired. One way to make POS labs more flexible, and desirable, would be to allow more choice over which types of slot are provided. Whether this means making the mobile lab configurable, or just breaking it out into different arrays for each lab type, I'm not sure. This would allow much nicer ME-only POS's based on a small tower. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
ToxicFire Warlords Corp The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:15:00 - [73] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Vasiliyan I can also see a case for creating "rapid turnaround" public labs, which can only be used for jobs shorter than 24 hours. Unfortunately, a period like 24-hours is just right for people to just put in another level every day. Queues would soon build up in those too. They wouldn't be as long as in the "full" slots, but they would probably get to around 4-5 days easily. An alternative solution in the same vein would be "junior researcher" lab slots, which could only research the first X levels of a print (with X being somewhere around 5). The majority of the benefit of research is gained in those first levels anyway, so these would let people get a foot in the door while the longer jobs of the experienced researchers (and the potentially pointless ME100+ jobs) stayed in the "senior researcher" slots. Of course, a more radical extention of that would be to apply a level cap on all NPC slots to force people to use POS labs for higher level research. Though that's not something I think is particularly desirable. As an aside, there is also a question around the number of slots in each type of lab. Not so much NPC labs, which were set like that for a reason, but POS labs. Lets face it, very few people set up a POS lab array for the 3 PE slots it gives. I suspect that in the majority of POS, labs are set up the 3 ME slots get constant use, the copying slot gets run to defray some of the POS operating cost, and the PE slots are very rarely used. This means that many 1-researcher lab POS's are actually running 21 slots, of which only 9 are really desired. One way to make POS labs more flexible, and desirable, would be to allow more choice over which types of slot are provided. Whether this means making the mobile lab configurable, or just breaking it out into different arrays for each lab type, I'm not sure. This would allow much nicer ME-only POS's based on a small tower. The concept of a configurable lab for pos's is quite an intresting once which could provide an intresting solution the question is would the ability to configure the lab cost you something extra, say something similar to reaction blue prints define what takes place within a reactor could some form of research controler bp or modification control how many lab slots a lab has and of what type perhaps even time bonuses. Have a variety of these types of "research controllers" on the market at a variety of costs, this provides CCP with another isk sink in exchange for allowing a little more flexibility in pos reseach. Alternative to that is the more simplistic approach of just allowing the number of slots to be divided how the user wants from the total number of slots. Yet another alternative same as the above just have a simple UI that allows you to change the slot make up but depending on how many of a certain slot is used changes the fuel use of the pos. Push em all into ME slots and your gonna incur and extra cost in terms of fuel. Or back to the most simple solution just scrap the existing mobile lab and break down the slot types into there own individual structures allowing you to mix and match. Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
aggiedog The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:56:00 - [74] I like the idea of people being able to use people's POSs to get research done. Solve the lack of slots and gives POSs a new revenue stream. All CCP has to do is create the interface. --------------------------------------------- Forum Wars!...Because the battlefeild is laggy.
Anatolius Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.12 22:21:00 - [75] Originally by: aggiedog I like the idea of people being able to use people's POSs to get research done. Solve the lack of slots and gives POSs a new revenue stream. All CCP has to do is create the interface. To be honest, this is the best solution. That is, easy rental of research POS slots. Less NPC-controlled crap, more player-owned infrastructure please. "If God be for us, whom can be against us?"
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.12 22:31:00 - [76] Part of the problem is people thinking they need to take their small ammo BPO to ME 200+. These lab slot woes have been around since shortly after RMR came out. The POS lab is currently the only way around the issue in empire space. The really nice part about them is the .75 time modifier, comes in handy.
Vermis Prox XII Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.12 23:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Lord WarATron People would LOVE to use player run POS research labs. However some research companies are scams, such as R0me0's one. All ccp need to do is fix public labslots on pos's to be available to the public (Via the standard Scientific networking skill so they can install in stations). At the moment, they have to join the corp in question and put the BPO in corp hanger to use it - which has the risk of corp theives. You can already do this. Corp A sets up POS in a system with labs, configures slots to be publicly available and sets the install & hourly fees. Corp B rents a corp office in same system (Alliance Outpost or NPC station), puts the BPO they want to research into a their own corp hanger. Corp B then starts a research job on that BPO in their own hanger in Corp A's POS lab (requires Scientific Networking). At no point does Corp A have Corp B's BPO. I know for a fact it works too, because I've done it where I had a corp office in our Outpost and "borrowed" lab time at a mis-configured Alliance members POS lab (It was set to publicably available with no fees heh). Heck, their lab was destoryed during a siege with my BPO in it, and I got it back unharmed. I would prefer to use a POS lab over an NPC lab anyday, it's 25% faster to research at.
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars	Posted - 2007.01.12 23:07:00 - [78] Originally by: Vermis Originally by: Lord WarATron People would LOVE to use player run POS research labs. However some research companies are scams, such as R0me0's one. All ccp need to do is fix public labslots on pos's to be available to the public (Via the standard Scientific networking skill so they can install in stations). At the moment, they have to join the corp in question and put the BPO in corp hanger to use it - which has the risk of corp theives. You can already do this. Corp A sets up POS in a system with labs, configures slots to be publicly available and sets the install & hourly fees. Corp B rents a corp office in same system (Alliance Outpost or NPC station), puts the BPO they want to research into a their own corp hanger. Corp B then starts a research job on that BPO in their own hanger in Corp A's POS lab (requires Scientific Networking). At no point does Corp A have Corp B's BPO. I know for a fact it works too, because I've done it where I had a corp office in our Outpost and "borrowed" lab time at a mis-configured Alliance members POS lab (It was set to publicably available with no fees heh). Heck, their lab was destoryed during a siege with my BPO in it, and I got it back unharmed. I would prefer to use a POS lab over an NPC lab anyday, it's 25% faster to research at. that only works with alliances... you can share you labs with others in your allaince... also... it has issues... if the bpo needs materials for research (tech 2... etc) or if you try to make bpcs... things just get messy Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Carter Burke	Posted - 2007.01.18 21:35:00 - [79] Originally by: ToxicFire Bumpity this issue isn't going to go away if its ignored Both POS public rental slots and the number of station ME slots needs to be sorted Bumpity I just felt it necessary to point out what a tard you appear to be, as you can't seem to wait ten days to get a job going. Whahhh. Dude, I've waited forty days for a slot. You remind me of the folks begging to halve training times. CB
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.18 21:46:00 - [80] I will research your bpo's. I have access to as many lab slots as I need. convo me in game for more info. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Carter Burke	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:08:00 - [81] Bingo. Problem solved. CB
MinThreat Carebearz Wit Gunz	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:24:00 - [82] Originally by: Samirol or go to low sec, there are ME slots there Im sorry, for a second I thought we didnt live in the same region...... quickest me slot in placid is 20 days
Sarf	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:49:00 - [83] If they fixed it so that a pos lab slot could be public, i am sure players would start building pos in empire space and renting them out to people that need them, there is already people doing this, but it is difficult and manual process to set up. You need to form a alliance to be able to do it effectively, and even then it is of no use to do copying or T2 ME/PE work. Pleae urge that the POS Labs be fixed.
ToxicFire Warlords Corp The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:55:00 - [84] Edited by: ToxicFire on 18/01/2007 22:51:37 Originally by: Carter Burke Originally by: ToxicFire Bumpity this issue isn't going to go away if its ignored Both POS public rental slots and the number of station ME slots needs to be sorted Bumpity I just felt it necessary to point out what a tard you appear to be, as you can't seem to wait ten days to get a job going. Whahhh. Dude, I've waited forty days for a slot. You remind me of the folks begging to halve training times. CB Biatchslap Go read the entirity of the thread before you attempt to say that cus u'll soon realise what a jackass u look like because of the multiple times i've said i've got access to a pos lab so its not an issue that affects me directly. Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:03:00 - [85] Edited by: j0sephine on 18/01/2007 23:00:54 "to the more slots will just get filled instantly.... if that was truly the case all the ME slots would have been filled constantly when the population was 10k we all know that wasn't the case so anyone with that kinda come back is talking complete bs." When the population was at 10k there was different lab system in place (there was generic rather than specialized research slots for one) And yes, they were all continually rented out, to the point where people were selling 'lab slots' for serious money or scamming others with offers of sale. CCP tried to deal with it in two ways, first by doubling amount of slots and then by introducing sliding scale rental prices which would grow over time while the slot was occupied until people would either stop renting or sink dozens of millions into rental. Then the new (current) system was introduced as part of manufacturing overhaul and well, it lasted for a while. The point of this story is, the prediction slots would get filled even if the amount was doubled isn't "complete bs", that's how it already worked out last time this 'solution' was tried... edit: oh and as it happens i was looking for slots to do some ME work earlier today. Found a few 10 day long queues in low sec areas. Just sayin'
Trollin	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:34:00 - [86] what they need to do, is.. 1. close all existing npc labs to further jobs. 2. allow existing npc lab jobs to complete. 3. remove npc research labs with the next patch. maybe then you will quit your *****ing and set up a pos. --------------------------------------------------- A word to the wise ain't necessary, its the stupid ones that need the advice

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