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Sticky:[December] Remote Rep Tiericide and Falloff

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CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 13496	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:43:26 - [1] - Quote Hey everyone! We're ready to get feedback on the changes to Remote Reps planned for our Operation Frostline release on December 8th. These changes are designed to be introduced alongside the new T2 Logistics Frigates. Few notes about this plan: This includes a full Module Tiericide pass on the Remote Armor Repairers, Remote Shield Boosters and Remote Hull Repairers. We are not adding new types of reppers at this time, but we are considering doing so in the near future (potentially large deadspace reps and/or named and faction hull reps). Remote armor, shield and hull reps all now have falloff (this falloff reduces effectiveness as you get further from your target, just like the neut falloff) Armor reps are more focused on optimal, Shield reps are more focused on falloff. Frigate logistics skews further towards falloff, while cruiser and larger bonuses tend to apply equally to both optimal and falloff. Rep cycle times are getting slower (~20% slower for armor reps and ~60% slower for shield reps). This will make target switching more powerful against overwhelming logi numbers, and increase danger of overhealing. Overall providing more room for very good logi pilots to shine. Overall rep/s is remaining fairly constant since rep amount per cycle is increasing. Capacitor use on shield and armor reps has increased a bit. Logistics ships are getting larger cap pools (but not better cap/s recharge) to compensate. Overall this makes it harder to be fully cap stable but easier to fly with a logi that isn't quite cap stable if you're not repping constantly. Base ranges on the reps have increased, and ship range bonuses are smaller to compensate. This makes the skill curve less steep and buffs non-range bonused RR ships such as RRBS and T3 Cruiser logi. Shield reps are getting reduced CPU and increased powergrid requirements. Shield logi fittings are being adjusted to match. This change makes it much more reasonable to fit shield RR on non-bonused ships and goes a long way to alleviating the fitting problems on shield carriers. We're not adding falloff to Remote Energy Transfers in this release, although that is still in our plan for later. We're increasing the base range of Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitters by ~17%, but reducing the bonus on carriers/supercarriers so bonused range stays the same while unbonused range increases. We're not doing a full balance pass on the other logi ships in this release, but there are some tweaks: Fitting changes for shield logi (extra pwg, less cpu) as mentioned above Increased cap pools with recharge time increased so that cap/s recharge stays similar T2 Logi Cruiser rep drone bonuses will apply to all types just like the T1 Support Cruiser bonus All T1 and T2 Cruiser Rep Drone bonuses will now apply to hull rep drones as well as armor and shield Range bonuses are being adjusted to match the new base module ranges and falloff addition: T2 Cruiser Logi: 60% Optimal and Falloff per level (62% for the Etana) T1 Support Cruisers: 430% Optimal and Falloff role bonus Armor logi frigate (T1 and T2): 50% Optimal, 600% Falloff role bonus Shield logi frigate (T1 and T2): 300% Falloff role bonus Carriers, Supercarriers, Rorqual: 40% Optimal and Falloff per level Exact stats for the Remote Rep modules can be found in this spreadsheet. Here are some example falloff curves for a few ship classes. These always assume max skills and T2 repair modules: Non-LogiFrig Ship changes: Basilisk: Shield Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull) PWG: 1050 (+225) CPU: 460 (-50) Capacitor Pool: 2100 (+725) Capacitor Recharge Time: 467s (+165.75s) Scimitar: Shield Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull) PWG: 735 (+185) CPU: 445 (-50) Capacitor Pool: 1750 (+500) Capacitor Recharge Time: 390s (+111.25s) Guardian: Armor Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull) Capacitor Pool: 2250 (+750) Capacitor Recharge Time: 500s (+165s) Oneiros: Armor Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull) Capacitor Pool: 1925 (+550) Capacitor Recharge Time: 430s (+123.1s) Etana: Shield Rep Range bonus is now +62% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones PWG: 1150 (+250) CPU: 520 (-40) Capacitor Pool: 3000 (+996) Capacitor Recharge Time: 420s (+141.25s) Osprey: Shield Rep Range role bonus is now +430% optimal and falloff (with base module ranges increased to compensate) PWG: 470 (+45) CPU: 380 (-30) Capacitor Pool: 2100 (+725) Capacitor Recharge Time: 420s (+145s) Scythe: Shield Rep Range role bonus is now +430% optimal and falloff (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull) PWG: 345 (+35) CPU: 285 (-30) Capacitor Pool: 1750 (+500) Capacitor Recharge Time: 350s (+110s) Augoror: Armor Rep Range role bonus is now +430% optimal and falloff (with base module ranges increased to compensate) Capacitor Pool: 2250 (+... Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/


CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 13496	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:43:41 - [2] - Quote Reserved Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Araneatrox Sanctuary of Shadows Triumvirate. 58	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:53:58 - [3] - Quote Does the T2 Cruiser logi still include the Cap reduction and Fitting requirements reduction? As it isn't mentioned and there is a large buff to Cap amount and Cap Recharge.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2466	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:55:39 - [4] - Quote Is there a reason shield is taking such a bit cycle hit vs armor? Feels a little homogenous. The differences before were interesting.

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 13497	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:56:44 - [5] - Quote Araneatrox wrote: Does the T2 Cruiser logi still include the Cap reduction and Fitting requirements reduction? As it isn't mentioned and there is a large buff to Cap amount and Cap Recharge. Yes the bonuses that aren't explicitly mentioned are staying the same. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Ariz Black School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 6	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:58:02 - [6] - Quote Fozzie what about the Nestor? And T3 logi?
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2831	Posted - 2015.11.26 22:59:23 - [7] - Quote What's the reasoning for having the rep cycle as -20% -60% for armor and shield? I understand the point about more chance to mis-rep, but why are they so significantly different?
Max Kolonko WATAHA. Unseen Wolves 576	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:04:44 - [8] - Quote What about Nestor and T3 logi subsystem? any changes there? Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2466	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:05:16 - [9] - Quote Oh and rep drones?
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1247	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:07:16 - [10] - Quote interesting changes, i like the cycle time variation and the falloff too optimal differences with shields and armour, not sure what the logi drone changes are about some more info on that would be nice, i like the frig ranges they seem fair, BUT cruiser rep ranges are still too strong, same with e-war cruisers really, perhaps you could consider a better scaling system maybe that includes battleship getting the longer range and cruiser ranges being nerfed down a fair bit, after all cruisers have mobility too move around the battlefield battleships could be like sentry reps/e-war easy too catch but have projection too make up for it and cruisers/frigs have mobility too project theirs. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Jack Hayson Atztech Inc. Ixtab. 319	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:20:43 - [11] - Quote Rowells wrote: What's the reasoning for having the rep cycle as -20% -60% for armor and shield? I understand the point about more chance to mis-rep, but why are they so significantly different? Because shield is easy mode and applies at the start of the cycle - armor reps apply at the end. Increased cycle time is only a tiny nerf for shield, but a very big one for armor.
Anthar Thebess 1378	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:20:49 - [12] - Quote When we will get pirate faction logi ship and(or) faction modules, in pirate faction LP stores? Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Liam Inkuras AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 1623	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:21:54 - [13] - Quote Nice I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Callduron Aliastra Gallente Federation 631	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:29:22 - [14] - Quote Could you please consider giving Amarr logi ships of all types the distinctive racial larger drone bay feature? It would be great fun to be able to have 25m3 / 75m3 on a Guardian so we could bring a full flight of each type of light rep drone. I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/ I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
Feffri Death By Design Did he say Jump 54	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:38:44 - [15] - Quote you are ***** terrible fozzie. why do you fix things that don't need to be fixed you need to be *** fired cause you are terrible at your job and have no idea what you are doing. noone is complaining about the state of logi in the game this is a useless change that only makes it unnecessary to bring as many damps as logi especially shield will be forced right on top of the fleet much easier. why don't you just take all piloting and skill out of the game. you are *** terrible! these falloff changes to reps and neuts is just stupid. especially when there are so many other things that need balancing. for instance how bout you stop making all *** gallente ships op'd as and bring back a little variety all minnie ships are pretty much terrible, start there. also your sov seems to be complety **** and the changes to cap logistics is just making it easier to N+1. Maybe you should try playing this game sometime to get a feel for everything you ** with... again you are terrible and I hate almost every change you make to the game you are a cancer in eve.
4chan SlashPOL Implying Jita Prices Vaguely Opsec. 8	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:41:53 - [16] - Quote Reserved
Carthereon Crust EVE University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:44:51 - [17] - Quote Will current Logistics ships be receiving a buff to their base targeting range? Some of the ships (namely Minmatar) already deal with only having a few km between their max rep and target range. With falloff I imagine there's going to be a discrepancy between potential range and targeting range on some of these ships.
Markus Reese Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 760	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:47:19 - [18] - Quote I think it is a good start. I should post in a new features and idea, but other thoughts to add potentially. Mostly cause while the changes help, it will not resolve the n+1 issue. Is lock range increasing? As a logi pilot, an increase in lock time in exchange for lock range I feel would make for some interesting fits. That said, sebus for range, but I think the new range usage on these will be lost in short lock ranges. Brought it up in stream, but can we in the future look at a subcap version of a triage modules? So get the resist, local rep and a range bonus for the module but then lose ability to receive reps? Still move is the difference If we get above, can we get a logi battleship for the large reps? Then we can have T2 cruisers be medium reps. To quote Lfod Shi The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Jack Hayson Atztech Inc. Ixtab. 319	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:49:13 - [19] - Quote Carthereon Crust wrote: Will current Logistics ships be receiving a buff to their base targeting range? Some of the ships (namely Minmatar) already deal with only having a few km between their max rep and target range. With falloff I imagine there's going to be a discrepancy between potential range and targeting range on some of these ships. Fit Sensor boosters?
g4llentes0ldier P0co holdings Ninja Reapers 0	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:59:28 - [20] - Quote Jack Hayson wrote: Rowells wrote: What's the reasoning for having the rep cycle as -20% -60% for armor and shield? I understand the point about more chance to mis-rep, but why are they so significantly different? Because shield is easy mode and applies at the start of the cycle - armor reps apply at the end. Increased cycle time is only a tiny nerf for shield, but a very big one for armor. Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range. Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this

Mugetsu Endoresu Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 00:00:11 - [21] - Quote Feffri wrote: you are ***** terrible fozzie. why do you fix things that don't need to be fixed you need to be ***** fired cause you are terrible at your job and have no idea what you are doing. I'm all for freedom of speech and disagreeing with a dev but you crossed the line with that sentence. Calling for a dev's resignation because of an ingame change is stupid and does way more harm then good.
Rmage Gemmell Friends of Mache Foundation 1	Posted - 2015.11.27 00:04:45 - [22] - Quote So let me get this straight .... a Scimmy/Scythe/Basi/Osprey can now pump shield HP at 100k ? You don't see a problem here with warp distance being at 150k and the small guy trying to separate gangs ? Logi frigs that can repp at 40k. Lovely.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1964	Posted - 2015.11.27 00:29:55 - [23] - Quote Interesting changes coming... I like it. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Desiderya Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1077	Posted - 2015.11.27 00:36:42 - [24] - Quote "noone is complaining about the state of logi in the game" Quote of the ages. Anyways, looking forward to playing these changes. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Jack Hayson Atztech Inc. Ixtab. 320	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:00:07 - [25] - Quote g4llentes0ldier wrote: Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range. Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this You are misunderstanding the changes. The amount repaired per second didn't change. They cycle slower, but boost more. The only thing this changes for shield is that you let your target drop a little bit lower before activating the shield booster. For armor the changes are much more severe, because it will take longer until the rep actually gets applied. To be honest I don't think armor even needs this nerf, considering how little impact this will have on shield. Personally I would have just nerfed the scan resolution of logis instead. (since it would have the same impact on shield and armor) Yes, the optimal range of shield is shorter, but the falloff is a lot longer, meaning that at longer ranges shield actually reps more than armor.
g4llentes0ldier P0co holdings Ninja Reapers 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:13:40 - [26] - Quote Jack Hayson wrote: g4llentes0ldier wrote: Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range. Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this You are misunderstanding the changes. The amount repaired per second didn't change. They cycle slower, but boost more. The only thing this changes for shield is that you let your target drop a little bit lower before activating the shield booster. For armor the changes are much more severe, because it will take longer until the rep actually gets applied. To be honest I don't think armor even needs this nerf, considering how little impact this will have on shield. Personally I would have just nerfed the scan resolution of logis instead. (since it would have the same impact on shield and armor) Yes, the optimal range of shield is shorter, but the falloff is a lot longer, meaning that at longer ranges shield actually reps more than armor. Yes and once they are in the falloff the amount repped goes down. even with the boost to amount for shields if you have a Armor and a shield logi both sitting at 60km the Armor one will rep more and faster than a shield one.
Jack Hayson Atztech Inc. Ixtab. 320	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:15:19 - [27] - Quote g4llentes0ldier wrote: Yes and once they are in the falloff the amount repped goes down. even with the boost to amount for shields if you have a Armor and a shield logi both sitting at 60km the Armor one will rep more and faster than a shield one. No, they don't. Look at the graphs that Fozzie posted.
PlantythePottedPlant Ultima Unitatis No Points Necessary 13	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:21:32 - [28] - Quote I might be wrong in the long run, but 4.4k optimal on the shield logistic frigates (T1 and T2) seems too short. Looking at the shield logistics cruisers, you have something like 40-50% of the old range is the optimal, but for the Bantam, Burst, and the two T2 variants thereof, you're looking at roughly 16% of the old range being optimal. I watched the stream video, and you said you wanted the frigates to rely more on falloff than their cruiser counterparts, but I feel like this is too much. If I have to be within blaster range of a fight to effectively rep the same as pre-patch, that doesn't seem like a good change for a ship that really doesn't get that much use as it is (burst + bantam). It might lend itself to some clutch manual piloting, which is probably what I'll try to do if the patch comes out unchanged from the current Sisi build, but I just wanted to ask you to rethink that optimal range and how it compares to the cruisers. The T1 frigates just don't have to tank the be that close to fights, and it effectively makes them significantly less useful than they were before. Maybe that's the intention, because frigate shield logistics ships were overpowered (?), but I don't see how anyone would have that opinion. All I ask is like 10k optimal, or even like 7-8k, start the slope a bit later. When you're starting at the same reps, and sloping off from that, you're looking at a straight nerf, because past 30k, <70% of the 96 or so hp/s it was repping in the first place is next to nothing in any engagement worth having logistics at in the first place.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2103	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:39:47 - [29] - Quote Any chance we will also see Ancillary remote repair mods? .. increase the rep amount then add a 40 second reload There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Circumstantial Evidence 239	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:55:26 - [30] - Quote The combination of adding falloff to neutralizers, with this change bringing support ships closer to their fleet if they want to ensure max reps, is going to make a much more challenging battlefield.

Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2932	Posted - 2015.11.27 02:03:49 - [31] - Quote I am hoping that PYFA gets these updates loaded in soon, because it's really dangerous to make proclamations on stuff when the cap pool of guardians is going up (because they need more cap!) and cap recharge is getting slower. Because, yeah, we all use native cap regen on the most OP logi in the game. You are aware that more capacitor equals harder to neut out, right? The other thing is to note that to all intents and purposes armour cruiser logi hasn't really changed at all. You'll still be running Guards at 50km with 100% rep efficiency, and dodging Geddon neuts quite effectively. Sure, slower armour rep cycles mean a slight chance of an aggro swap causing problems (max 12s now to swap reps vs 10s perviously) but most aggro swaps only result in kills when the Guardian blob is being damped, jammed or neuted. i'm not seeing a great deal of difference here. But, without a lot of time to go through and double-check the effects of these cycle, cap use and rep amount changes ship by ship...over the 40 or so logi hulls in game...its just looking like cementing armour in vs shield. ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 302	Posted - 2015.11.27 02:13:24 - [32] - Quote Wow. This seems like quite the nerf to logi. Even my proposal wasn't this drastic. I'm intrigued, however, by the increased use of falloff in systems that previously didn't have it. Could missiles be in for an eventual falloff treatment, I wonder? And will this new falloff system (instead of increased chance of miss - decreased effectiveness) eventually be applied to other ewar? I know that was asked in the neut nerf thread, but I didn't see a reply there. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 10	Posted - 2015.11.27 02:13:34 - [33] - Quote Still unbonussed RR remains not viable in general. That is a good chance to get rid of game breaking 90000% bonues like we have now. 500% bonus to rep range on t1 hull, to make it actually work? Well... not good. Maybe make base range 250% batter than now live and have logi only 100% better? same for logi, but waaaay more viable for T3 logi and RR gangs that dare to use MWD.
Karash Amerius Sutoka 215	Posted - 2015.11.27 03:46:01 - [34] - Quote Are the targeting ranges of the logi class getting a buff as well? Because you don't mention this at all. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 3702	Posted - 2015.11.27 03:56:12 - [35] - Quote I use RR on my drones during missions. Thus, its not a typical logistics ship that I am using. What does the dropoff curve look like for the typical ship used for L4 missions, like a Navy Domi or a 'snake? Know a Frozen fan? Check this out Frozen fanfiction
Nyjil Lizaru Aideron Robotics 42	Posted - 2015.11.27 04:00:04 - [36] - Quote On one hand, these changes sound really interesting and fun; and an elegant answer to the 'problem of logi'. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the actual flying of logi needed more complexity and/or stress. Regardless, I look forward to seeing if my sanity can survive this! Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1665	Posted - 2015.11.27 04:56:12 - [37] - Quote I'd just like to go on-record as saying that CCP Fozzie & team have exceeded my expectations on this one. Having played with the fitting of ships and working out a quick breakdown of how things will be working on Sisi, I can safely say that I love these changes. This is going to make everything more fun.
Markus Reese Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 760	Posted - 2015.11.27 05:25:27 - [38] - Quote Arrendis wrote: I'd just like to go on-record as saying that CCP Fozzie & team have exceeded my expectations on this one. Having played with the fitting of ships and working out a quick breakdown of how things will be working on Sisi, I can safely say that I love these changes. This is going to make everything more fun. Seconded this. Not only will it help balance Logi and make it more skill requiring, it actually makes it far more fun! For example: I was on sisi today testing, doing the good ol CA1, rr neutrals. No longer is it suddenly a person is .5km out of range and poof, everything is off. There is a buffer to say "turn your ass around and get back" as you watch the reps start to fall off. Makes it quite exciting actually and more involved for both parties. Very much feeling like a win all around. To quote Lfod Shi The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Sosi Midragi 101st Cliffdiving Regiment Northern Army 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 05:54:23 - [39] - Quote Markus Reese wrote: Arrendis wrote: I'd just like to go on-record as saying that CCP Fozzie & team have exceeded my expectations on this one. Having played with the fitting of ships and working out a quick breakdown of how things will be working on Sisi, I can safely say that I love these changes. This is going to make everything more fun. Seconded this. Not only will it help balance Logi and make it more skill requiring, it actually makes it far more fun! For example: I was on sisi today testing, doing the good ol CA1, rr neutrals. No longer is it suddenly a person is .5km out of range and poof, everything is off. There is a buffer to say "turn your ass around and get back" as you watch the reps start to fall off. Makes it quite exciting actually and more involved for both parties. Very much feeling like a win all around. Whow this must be the solo best reasone these changes are good /sarcasem
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2835	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:28:19 - [40] - Quote Jack Hayson wrote: g4llentes0ldier wrote: Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range. Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this You are misunderstanding the changes. The amount repaired per second didn't change. They cycle slower, but boost more. The only thing this changes for shield is that you let your target drop a little bit lower before activating the shield booster. For armor the changes are much more severe, because it will take longer until the rep actually gets applied. To be honest I don't think armor even needs this nerf, considering how little impact this will have on shield. Personally I would have just nerfed the scan resolution of logis instead. (since it would have the same impact on shield and armor) Yes, the optimal range of shield is shorter, but the falloff is a lot longer, meaning that at longer ranges shield actually reps more than armor. EDIT: The more I think about it... in most situations the decreased cycle time will actually be a buff for shield instead of a nerf: Imagine you just managed to lock someone as he enters structures. If you now give him a small shield boost he might get volleyd before the next cycle starts, but with a bigger boost he survives that volley and catches reps. The only situation the bigger shield boost+longer cylce time is a nerf is when you are bad and activate too many boosters at once or too early. For armor it's always a nerf. in most situations, being in structure as a shield taker means a lot of other things went wrong. If he's in structure once you lock him, is it not reasonable to assume hell be back in structure, if not further (or deader) due to the longer rep time?

Torgeir Hekard I MYSELF AND ME 221	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:28:45 - [41] - Quote CCP playing it's own game yet again... Guys. Guuys! Helloooo! Is there anybody out there? I understand the last time a dev actually played their own game was several years ago. I suspect cap booster logis were not a thing in yer merry dayes of cavalry ravens and nano domis, but here's the most recent hot topic from Slowpoke News Network: smallgang logis more often than not use cap boosters. They don't give a crap about cap transfers or cap regen. They do give a crap about the fact that a random frig can survive a nuclear winter on navy400s, and the bigger the ship gets the more 800s he has to chug to even keep moving and shooting, much less repping. While cargo remains the same. I think you have a teensy weensy little problem in this game of yours when the ship staying power actually goes down with the size increase because ** you sigtanking, you speed is life and ** you capacitor.
Medria Lennelluc Strategic Exploration and Development Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance 3	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:30:45 - [42] - Quote Will the Optimal/Falloff be tied to Racial Cruiser level or to Logistics level? (the 60% for Scimitar for example)
Orca Platypus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 85	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:32:34 - [43] - Quote Rmage Gemmell wrote: So let me get this straight .... a Scimmy/Scythe/Basi/Osprey can now pump shield HP at 100k ? You don't see a problem here with warp distance being at 150k and the small guy trying to separate gangs ? Logi frigs that can repp at 40+ k. Lovely. Don't you think you should set that warp to distance at more than 200k now ? At 100km they are going to do 22% of current rep. You'll need 5 of those to be as good as a single one. Overall it's a major nerf - the maximum efficiency stays the same, range is nerfed (you have to be closer to give full reps, especially shield), efficiency is nerfed (if you aren't close, you're ****, especially with armor). Even though I've done MOST of my pvp in a logi, I don't really care, as long as the other guy is hit equally hard. This change doesn't really give any side any more advantage than N+1 would usually give.
Medria Lennelluc Strategic Exploration and Development Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance 3	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:41:38 - [44] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: At 100km they are going to do 22% of current rep. You'll need 5 of those to be as good as a single one. Overall it's a major nerf - the maximum efficiency stays the same, range is nerfed (you have to be closer to give full reps, especially shield), efficiency is nerfed (if you aren't close, you're ****, especially with armor). From what I can gather, at 100km it's more like 2%, not 22%
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 366	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:44:42 - [45] - Quote how do you envisage this changing the meta in large gangs, where plenty of logi will likely mean that SOMEONE will be at the right point to land reps instantly on the new primary I'm seeing this as an indirect nerf to small gangs...... For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Torgeir Hekard I MYSELF AND ME 221	Posted - 2015.11.27 06:52:13 - [46] - Quote Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I'm seeing this as an indirect nerf to small gangs...... I'm seeing this as a rather direct nerf to small gangs because Le Blob doesn't care about long cycles because with 100500 logis you are already staggering reps by virtue of human factor, because blob logi fits are largely unaffected (5-1 basi is exactly the same as it was), because who cares about 80% rep efficiency when you have 300% overrep, but now you can rep up that drooling moron that MJDed in the middle of the enemy fleet with a couple dozen logi of yours.
Tethys Luxor Prima Gallicus 9	Posted - 2015.11.27 07:02:02 - [47] - Quote It's very difficult to judge how these changes are going to change the meta. Logi V is a now an even more powerful skill. Is it possible to add a small adjustment to T2 logi drone requirements ? It's on the very bottom of skill queues. The multiplicand is relatively high and all drone size are getting the T2 with lvl 5 only.
Markus Reese Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 760	Posted - 2015.11.27 07:08:49 - [48] - Quote Tethys Luxor wrote: It's very difficult to judge how these changes are going to change the meta. Logi V is a now an even more powerful skill. Is it possible to add a small adjustment to T2 logi drone requirements ? It's on the very bottom of skill queues. The multiplicand is relatively high and all drone size are getting the T2 with lvl 5 only. How is Logi V going to be even more powerful? The range bonus? Right now Logi V does more with so many required logi V fits to get that extra rep. The range bonus is fairly good, but at the ranges they operate, not sure if make or break fighting, well, not before crunching numbers. All I can say is being a logi is more fun and what CCP said about wasted reps will be true. Staggered cycles are going to be more important, woot. To quote Lfod Shi The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1666	Posted - 2015.11.27 07:11:41 - [49] - Quote Jack Hayson wrote: [The amount repaired per second didn't change. Actually, the amount repped per second is anywhere from 'virtually unchanged' to 'cut in half' depending on where in your falloff you are.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1666	Posted - 2015.11.27 07:14:27 - [50] - Quote Tethys Luxor wrote: Logi V is a now an even more powerful skill. As opposed to being the 'if you don't have it, fly the T1 support cruiser' skill it's been for any serious logi-work?

Rek Seven Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering 2116	Posted - 2015.11.27 07:24:47 - [51] - Quote What about T3 logi fits? Don't they need adjusting or will they have the same rep power and cap stability after the changes? The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Solarus Explorer The Church of Awesome 11	Posted - 2015.11.27 07:31:07 - [52] - Quote +1 for cutting down the range of frig logi. I would suggest cutting down the range of cruiser logi further as well, to give brawlers some chance of catching logi in small gangs. Overall though i'm in favour of removing logi completely from the game. Let ships undock and die in pvp, they shouldn't have the safety of a bunch of logi ships to save them all the time.
Tethys Luxor Prima Gallicus 9	Posted - 2015.11.27 08:11:28 - [53] - Quote Markus Reese wrote: How is Logi V going to be even more powerful? The range bonus? Right now Logi V does more with so many required logi V fits to get that extra rep. The range bonus is fairly good, but at the ranges they operate, not sure if make or break fighting, well, not before crunching numbers. All I can say is being a logi is more fun and what CCP said about wasted reps will be true. Staggered cycles are going to be more important, woot. There is now even more gap between logi 4 and logi 5 (and it was HUGE before). I'm not comparing the old and new logi mechanic here.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2467	Posted - 2015.11.27 08:29:51 - [54] - Quote Tethys Luxor wrote: Markus Reese wrote: How is Logi V going to be even more powerful? The range bonus? Right now Logi V does more with so many required logi V fits to get that extra rep. The range bonus is fairly good, but at the ranges they operate, not sure if make or break fighting, well, not before crunching numbers. All I can say is being a logi is more fun and what CCP said about wasted reps will be true. Staggered cycles are going to be more important, woot. There is now even more gap between logi 4 and logi 5 (and it was HUGE before). I'm not comparing the old and new logi mechanic here. I admit, it is getting closer and closer to those annoying group of skills where I-IV is utterly useless. It's closing in on adv. spaceship command every change
Rmage Gemmell Friends of Mache Foundation 1	Posted - 2015.11.27 08:31:23 - [55] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: Rmage Gemmell wrote: So let me get this straight .... a Scimmy/Scythe/Basi/Osprey can now pump shield HP at 100k ? You don't see a problem here with warp distance being at 150k and the small guy trying to separate gangs ? Logi frigs that can repp at 40+ k. Lovely. Don't you think you should set that warp to distance at more than 200k now ? At 100km they are going to do 22% of current rep. You'll need 5 of those to be as good as a single one. Overall it's a major nerf - the maximum efficiency stays the same, range is nerfed (you have to be closer to give full reps, especially shield), efficiency is nerfed (if you aren't close, you're **, especially with armor). Even though I've done MOST of my pvp in a logi, I don't really care, as long as the other guy is hit equally hard. This change doesn't really give any side any more advantage than N+1 would usually give. When you get a range increase, that is not considered a nerf. A couple of cycles of RR can save you, even if it is just 1 cycle. What this means is that the range of engaging on grid against superior numbers has just decreased (a lot), and that Scimmy that is burning for his buddy can pump shields and make his buddy hold out, even at 100k. Forget about separating on grid if a Scimmy is present. Medria Lennelluc wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: At 100km they are going to do 22% of current rep. You'll need 5 of those to be as good as a single one. Overall it's a major nerf - the maximum efficiency stays the same, range is nerfed (you have to be closer to give full reps, especially shield), efficiency is nerfed (if you aren't close, you're **, especially with armor). From what I can gather, at 100km it's more like 2%, not 22% No, he's right, it's about 23-25% from their own graph, with the 20% point being reached at 106.
Diamond Hunter01 Great White North Productions Alternate Allegiance 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 08:31:26 - [56] - Quote Can we get a Logistic Drone Bay for LOGI ships. Yes thats right a seperate drone bay from the regular drone bay so LOGI may carry a full compliment of Logistic drones and be capable of feilding DPS drones as needed.
PlantythePottedPlant Ultima Unitatis No Points Necessary 13	Posted - 2015.11.27 08:45:32 - [57] - Quote Rmage Gemmell wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: Rmage Gemmell wrote: So let me get this straight .... a Scimmy/Scythe/Basi/Osprey can now pump shield HP at 100k ? You don't see a problem here with warp distance being at 150k and the small guy trying to separate gangs ? Logi frigs that can repp at 40+ k. Lovely. Don't you think you should set that warp to distance at more than 200k now ? At 100km they are going to do 22% of current rep. You'll need 5 of those to be as good as a single one. Overall it's a major nerf - the maximum efficiency stays the same, range is nerfed (you have to be closer to give full reps, especially shield), efficiency is nerfed (if you aren't close, you're ***, especially with armor). Even though I've done MOST of my pvp in a logi, I don't really care, as long as the other guy is hit equally hard. This change doesn't really give any side any more advantage than N+1 would usually give. When you get a range increase, that is not considered a nerf. A couple of cycles of RR can save you, even if it is just 1 cycle. What this means is that the range of engaging on grid against superior numbers has just decreased (a lot), and that Scimmy that is burning for his buddy can pump shields and make his buddy hold out, even at 100k. Forget about separating on grid if a Scimmy is present. For the logi frigates it's a straight nerf. Both armor and shield slope pretty steeply past the current range, and the fact that at 15km it's 90% effective already for shields is kind of sad. Optimal of 4k for small remote shield boosters is silly, and even though they can* rep at 40, that's like saying you can shoot your blasters at 20k with void. It won't do anything, but if it makes you feel better have at it.
Phaezen Orti WiNGSPAN Delivery Services The WINGSPAN Logo Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 08:56:06 - [58] - Quote Diamond Hunter01 wrote: Can we get a Logistic Drone Bay for LOGI ships. Yes thats right a seperate drone bay from the regular drone bay so LOGI may carry a full compliment of Logistic drones and be capable of feilding DPS drones as needed. Can't see that happening as logi vs damage vs ewar drones is a meaningful choice
Acobar Lonetrek Blacksoul Federation Northern Army 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 09:04:58 - [59] - Quote How about getting logi on killmails, CCP Fozzie?
Aisha Shimaya GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 9	Posted - 2015.11.27 09:14:37 - [60] - Quote A good change with a nice incursion nerf on the side.

Medria Lennelluc Strategic Exploration and Development Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance 3	Posted - 2015.11.27 09:48:13 - [61] - Quote Aisha Shimaya wrote: A good change with a nice incursion nerf on the side. Doesn't really nerf incursions, at least not on any meaningful level.
Lewich Explosive Decomposition 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 09:57:30 - [62] - Quote Why is T2 large remote rep is using 40 more PG now? WHERE'S my damn bonus PG on Guard/Oneiros? Basi/Scimi have their fitting adjusted to new shield reps. Why is armor doesnt?
Yun Kuai Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 286	Posted - 2015.11.27 10:06:49 - [63] - Quote Not quite sure how I feel on these changes. On one hand it should change how logi works in small gangs forcing both armor and shield logi closer, meaning the kite meta will be harder (maybe). On the other hand, we've had numerous instances where the guy was at like 90km from the logi and had gotten a scram on an Orthus, etc. but he was just too far out of rep range and we only had AB logi. Now he'll catch reps, albeit at like 20-25% of max effiiciency, but hey reps are reps (and that's the part I'm worried about) --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Gen Mo'Kai Phayder Corporation 4	Posted - 2015.11.27 10:10:03 - [64] - Quote When will the amount of armor/shield/hull repair be calculated? For example: if I am in falloff and start cycling an remote armor repper, then move into optimal before the cycle is completed, will the amount of armor applied be determined when I started cycling the module, or when the armor actually applies at the end of the cycle?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2731	Posted - 2015.11.27 10:59:23 - [65] - Quote Gen Mo'Kai wrote: When will the amount of armor/shield/hull repair be calculated? For example: if I am in falloff and start cycling an remote armor repper, then move into optimal before the cycle is completed, will the amount of armor applied be determined when I started cycling the module, or when the armor actually applies at the end of the cycle? Based on the fact you can start the cycle on someone it and they can then go out of range and it fail currently, I'd guess at the end, but good question.
Fossor Wintersky Ordinus Ursorum Cautorum 20	Posted - 2015.11.27 11:31:21 - [66] - Quote Oh. lol. Useless changes. It's a time to delete characters and uninstall game. 'cause it's not a game already.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2467	Posted - 2015.11.27 11:44:46 - [67] - Quote Fossor Wintersky wrote: Oh. lol. Useless changes. It's a time to delete characters and uninstall game. 'cause it's not a game already. Crack on then.
Dantelion Shinoni SQUIDS. 20	Posted - 2015.11.27 12:22:37 - [68] - Quote Torgeir Hekard wrote: Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I'm seeing this as an indirect nerf to small gangs...... I'm seeing this as a rather direct nerf to small gangs because Le Blob doesn't care about long cycles because with 100500 logis you are already staggering reps by virtue of human factor, because blob logi fits are largely unaffected (5-1 basi is exactly the same as it was), because who cares about 80% rep efficiency when you have 300% overrep, but now you can rep up that drooling moron that MJDed in the middle of the enemy fleet with a couple dozen logi of yours. Small gangs will adapt. Plus it's probably too late to add something that would help curb blob-overrepping since those are due pretty soon. I would like to see more emphasis on making target switching more powerful by increasing the rep cycles even more. But that could actually not be that great if an idea.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 302	Posted - 2015.11.27 12:35:37 - [69] - Quote Dantelion Shinoni wrote: Small gangs will adapt. Plus it's probably too late to add something that would help curb blob-overrepping since those are due pretty soon. I would like to see more emphasis on making target switching more powerful by increasing the rep cycles even more, maybe go 30%, 75% slower for armor and shield reps. Might be a tad extreme though. I had a proposal that, in my opinion, nerfed the power of large blobs while mostly leaving small gang alone. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=449157 The single paragraph that starts with "The basics" boils down the proposal and explains the premise. On another note, I find it kind of odd that a major shift to mechanics that play such a large role in this game are rolled out mere days before release. More minor parts of the game get more forewarning on the forums and more time for testing on Sisi. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Thercon Jair Nex Exercitus Memento Moriendo 8	Posted - 2015.11.27 13:28:24 - [70] - Quote I am not 100% certain yet, but the changes seem to widen the gap between cap transfer and non-cap transfer logistics. Range on cap transfers between logistics never was an issue, and cap transfer based builds could use non-cap recharge utilised slots to increase other stats, lock range, speed, sensor strength, while cap recharge based logistics will have bigger issues staying cap stable while trying to approach the tank and utility of the transfer logistics.

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2848	Posted - 2015.11.27 13:30:41 - [71] - Quote Which is where the advantage in quick release cycle lies. If they feel they need to hold the changes till a later date they can, or if the changes are released and break the game we dont have to wait long for a balance pass. I was hoping for more of a nerf to cruiser logi ranges EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave 1311	Posted - 2015.11.27 13:43:22 - [72] - Quote It's a bit backwards that shield will be cycling slower than armor why are we flipping this fir RR. If it's because shield reps at the start then that makes no seance as you still have to run a full cycle before swapping Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 804	Posted - 2015.11.27 14:05:16 - [73] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: It's a bit backwards that shield will be cycling slower than armor why are we flipping this fir RR. If it's because shield reps at the start then that makes no seance as you still have to run a full cycle before swapping *sense And if we think about shield reps needing to "recharge" before the next cycle then it makes sense having to fully cycle before boosting again. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Sof0s Parental Control PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS 3	Posted - 2015.11.27 14:09:02 - [74] - Quote I dont like the range change its bad for the game having support ships able to rep at such extreme ranges even with 20% rep power cause enemy fleets cant usually fire at enemies at 80~90Km+ unless they are in sniper doctrine . Longer cycles makes fleets prefer armor logi setups instead of shields thats not good also . But i am sure CCP will fix it 3 or 4 years from now .
biz Antollare eXceed Inc. 64	Posted - 2015.11.27 14:19:04 - [75] - Quote Logi wasnt broken. Fozzie go find something better to do instead of "fixing" things that dont need to be fixed.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2407	Posted - 2015.11.27 14:31:28 - [76] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Tethys Luxor wrote: Logi V is a now an even more powerful skill. As opposed to being the 'if you don't have it, fly the T1 support cruiser' skill it's been for any serious logi-work? Before T1 cruiser change it was even "better" with Logi V or go DPS bro...
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1248	Posted - 2015.11.27 14:33:38 - [77] - Quote shouldn't large reps have a slower cycle time than mediums? T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Thercon Jair Nex Exercitus Memento Moriendo 8	Posted - 2015.11.27 14:42:59 - [78] - Quote Harvey James wrote: shouldn't large reps have a slower cycle time than mediums? I'd be actually more in favour of ballancing cruiser sized logis around medium remote reps and medium remote cap transfers and then introducing a BS sized logistics platform utilising large reps and cap transfers, and add a signature resolution/explosion radius-like attribute that corresponds to the size (but don't mess up minmatar ships receiving less reps because they're usually a bit smaller than the turret resolution of the size). It's strange that frigates use small, cruisers use large, and cruisers are used for cruiser and up fleets.
Anzsi Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 3	Posted - 2015.11.27 15:17:08 - [79] - Quote hahaa ccp taked something for my idea :) I like this logi-changes. my post earlier this year: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5884010
Lugh Crow-Slave 1311	Posted - 2015.11.27 15:48:44 - [80] - Quote why is it armor reps will also be repping more hp/s? Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis

Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1669	Posted - 2015.11.27 16:18:12 - [81] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: why is it armor reps will also be repping more hp/s? Probably the same reason they have a longer optimal: they land at the end of the cycle. Shield reps land the moment the module activates, so you make them suffer a bit for their speed, and increase the differentiation between the two types of fleet.
Pic'n dor Wild Sentinels Honorable Third Party 44	Posted - 2015.11.27 17:24:50 - [82] - Quote longer cycle time + more cap usage == big nerf on logi nerf nerf nerf nerf COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Skyler Hawk Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co. 67	Posted - 2015.11.27 17:50:48 - [83] - Quote Since you're rebalancing remote rep modules anyway, wouldn't it make sense to introduce faction and deadspace large remote armor reps and shield boosters to complement the existing mediums and smalls?
Maximus Aerelius PROPHET OF ENIGMA 1331	Posted - 2015.11.27 17:57:27 - [84] - Quote Solarus Explorer wrote: +1 for cutting down the range of frig logi. I would suggest cutting down the range of cruiser logi further as well, to give brawlers some chance of catching logi in small gangs. Overall though i'm in favour of removing logi completely from the game. Let ships undock and die in pvp, they shouldn't have the safety of a bunch of logi ships to save them all the time. ^ this guy, really has no clue. You'd kill off an entire career line for the sake of some extra kills? I'd like to wager that more kills come from having Logi than not cos reasons. EDIT: Also kill s off entire communities: Incursion Runners for one. No Incursion Runners then you've got whole systems with maximum Sansha effects in operation such as lower resists, lower bounties etc. Great idea bud /sarcasm. [b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > \|_\| < Fill 'er up!
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2409	Posted - 2015.11.27 18:15:21 - [85] - Quote Skyler Hawk wrote: Since you're rebalancing remote rep modules anyway, wouldn't it make sense to introduce faction and deadspace large remote armor reps and shield boosters to complement the existing mediums and smalls? Since you are in the thread and replying to it, wouldn't it make sense to read the very first point in the OP's list?
Che'Nedra Borune Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering 3	Posted - 2015.11.27 19:13:19 - [86] - Quote I think the changes to RR are interesting and will open up a wide range of new ways to play the game :) However, I think that, with this change especially, it would be extremely helpful if the following long awaited features could be added: - Show logistics 'damage notifications' for both repairing and receiving parties. This will function as immediate feedback of effectiveness of RR for logi pilots, just like the damage notifications give you an idea of 'how well' you're applying your damage. In addition, this will give somewhat of a way to analyze fights afterwards to see why you died with the logi present. Where they far into the falloff? Did not everybody repair you? - Show logistics on killmails (repairs received amount on km, assisting players listed?) Not only will this finally give some credit to all the nameless logibros out there who are putting their ship on the line and are never mentioned in any battle report, it will also give a much better idea of how much of hostile logi was overcome in the destruction of a ship. Thanks for considering those changes :) -Che
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 917	Posted - 2015.11.27 20:16:39 - [87] - Quote Thercon Jair wrote: Harvey James wrote: shouldn't large reps have a slower cycle time than mediums? I'd be actually more in favour of ballancing cruiser sized logis around medium remote reps and medium remote cap transfers and then introducing a BS sized logistics platform utilising large reps and cap transfers, and add a signature resolution/explosion radius-like attribute that corresponds to the size (but don't mess up minmatar ships receiving less reps because they're usually a bit smaller than the turret resolution of the size). It's strange that frigates use small, cruisers use large, and cruisers are used for cruiser and up fleets. Maybe you haven't noticed the cruiser changes in Retribution but the t1 logistic are using medium red whereas t2 logistics use large ones. With the new falloff mechanics for logi, will there also be "wrecking" reps? I think the better way to "balance" logistic modules would have been to give them an explosion radius and an explosion velocity, then give them the heavy missile treatment and then introduce an explosion radius and explosion velocity tracking disrupter that makes them even more useless. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Zikori Trader Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 21:53:45 - [88] - Quote The parish Fozzie is the worst that's ever happened to this game, the more incompetent a man at the CCP never was. We don't need these useless changes which you break our game, we don't pay you for it, in the game there are a thousand things about which the players asked for it, you ignore them, and do useless things that make people leave the game. I love being a support player, I spent a lot of time and money in order to pump logistician and links for CTA's and roaming, and you go and break everything. A great reason to leave this game. Stupid useless changes.
ISD Max Trix ISD Community Communications Liaisons 63	Posted - 2015.11.27 21:59:35 - [89] - Quote Quote: 3. Ranting is prohibited. A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. Deleted a post for the above reason. ISD Max Trix Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Mr Floydy Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 294	Posted - 2015.11.27 21:59:49 - [90] - Quote Changes look good, looking forward to flying logi with these. Ever since this was hinted at back at EveNT I've been looking forward to it :D

Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1061	Posted - 2015.11.27 22:28:56 - [91] - Quote Not real sure why you are changing remote reps to have optimal and falloff. The slower cycle times seem enough to change things. Not today spaghetti.
Gloom skull Dethahal House of the Dead Monkey SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.11.28 05:31:31 - [92] - Quote My carrier should now be able to assist the fighters again. When I started training, you changed jump range. Then you messed with my drones, removed the fighters. Now that I've finally finished the train queue, you're taking away my reps and triage. And now, on the ship that doesn't exist yet, you're nerfing my reps....! I appreciate the changes, but they continue to outpace the skill queue and investment. Can we hear some announcements for the folks being left behind? Have some good news for us? In terms of new work?
Nevil Kincade Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels 22	Posted - 2015.11.28 07:23:42 - [93] - Quote The best idea in regards to reps ive heard so far was giving them an analogue to what signature resolution is to guns. So that larger reps would rep less on smaller targets. That would nerf the pesky carrier drop/undock to save a bait quite nicely which is used as a denial of fun **** move way too much in Eve.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 161	Posted - 2015.11.28 08:22:42 - [94] - Quote I am so looking forward to helping my mates while flying logi "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Lucas Quaan Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 115	Posted - 2015.11.28 13:35:56 - [95] - Quote Since this is EVE, the player reaction will be that if reps are now 75% of their old value you bring 33% more logi than before to compensate. That said, I think the new mechanics are great for the small gang setting where you get the choice between coming closer to the fight or rep less from a safer position.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1312	Posted - 2015.11.28 14:40:45 - [96] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: why is it armor reps will also be repping more hp/s? Probably the same reason they have a longer optimal: they land at the end of the cycle. Shield reps land the moment the module activates, so you make them suffer a bit for their speed, and increase the differentiation between the two types of fleet. Except that only helps at the start of a fight after I start repping I still need to wait a full cycle before swapping overall it will now be much easier for armor logi to swap targets Not to mention armor have larger buffets helping them last longer and they have higher resists meaning they get more ehp for every hp repped. I don't see why shield is getting the short end of the stick with this change armor is already the preferred set up in a logi supported fleet do to its higher buffer Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Lugh Crow-Slave 1312	Posted - 2015.11.28 14:47:31 - [97] - Quote Zikori Trader wrote: The parish Fozzie is the worst that's ever happened to this game, the more incompetent a man at the CCP never was. We don't need these useless changes which you break our game, we don't pay you for it, in the game there are a thousand things about which the players asked for it, you ignore them, and do useless things that make people leave the game. I love being a support player, I spent a lot of time and money in order to pump logistician and links for CTA's and roaming, and you go and break everything. A great reason to leave this game. Stupid useless changes. But people have been asking for this and the idea behind it isn't bad but the disparity between armor and shield is gong to be to big there will be no use in shield logi Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
commander aze Sub--Zero 72	Posted - 2015.11.28 18:31:25 - [98] - Quote So at first glance armor looks like its getting shafted again? Why are the 2 not equal across the board? Why do we need theae changes? It seems lile we are penalizing people who have good fleet comps to make it harder for them. Logi wasnt broken so now we want to find a way to make it broken? Rhetorical yes they constantly do this instead of addressing bigger issues. Tiericide is now ccps way of saying we want something to distract the players from other issues. Lastly heres the real salt. Longer rep times? Seriously? Its hard enough managinging 10 locks and hero repping with armor reps now we want to make it even harder. Not sure if this has been adressed but shield and armor should either be both front loaded or end of cycle effects. Alternatively act like mining lasers and have effect based on percent of cycle. All of this with the looming changes to capital logistics... its ok. Commander Aze For CSM 10
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1248	Posted - 2015.11.29 01:06:24 - [99] - Quote on rep times, i certainly think its strange that medium/large/capital reps all have the same cycle times, they realised frigs needed the fast reps because of their hp is low, so surely by the same logic medium reps should be lower than large and same for capitals too larges. -frig is 3/4secs -med could be 5/6.5 large - 8/10 capitals - 11/13 than the logi cruisers could either be converted too mediums with maybe the cycle time bonus or tank bonus like the logi frigs, or keep the large reps which would differentiate them from T1/T3 logi's T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sumeragy Nemesis Logistics Nemesis Enterprises. 17	Posted - 2015.11.29 11:59:23 - [100] - Quote THIS HERE is exactly why we need disliky button in forums. I mean there are 4k People reading this and only 58 likes i mean there are 3942 dislikes possible. @ Topic So CCP is in need of an isk sink so lets keep the players loose more ships so we don-¦t need to implement a working solution ? I don-¦t know how much CCP played theyr own game, but its hard to play a logi already u are the bad man anyway doesnt matter what you do,at least we got an excuse now. No Killmails and you produce more killmail losses. So how drunk do i need to get ppl to confince them to play logi too ?

Lugh Crow-Slave 1314	Posted - 2015.11.29 13:00:49 - [101] - Quote Sumeragy wrote: THIS HERE is exactly why we need disliky button in forums. I mean there are 4k People reading this and only 58 likes i mean there are 3942 dislikes possible. @ Topic So CCP is in need of an isk sink so lets keep the players loose more ships so we don-¦t need to implement a working solution ? I don-¦t know how much CCP played theyr own game, but its hard to play a logi already u are the bad man anyway doesnt matter what you do,at least we got an excuse now. No Killmails and you produce more killmail losses. So how drunk do i need to get ppl to confince them to play logi too ? Running skirmishes on sisi abs logistics still works but your fleet needs to be on the ball when screening add well being able to control your hp/s adds even more to bait taking. What we have learned is if you want to go logistics go armor end of story you get much more optimal more hp/s and faster cycles and all you give up is a few total km that if your using as a shield logi your not repping anything worth while that far out Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.29 13:03:40 - [102] - Quote Don't like the change. The player base care too much about fighting battles they can't lose, more logi means more barriers to pvp, just like the amount of Ewar we have in the game.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1314	Posted - 2015.11.29 16:30:26 - [103] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Don't like the change. The player base care too much about fighting battles they can't lose, more logi means more barriers to pvp, just like the amount of Ewar we have in the game. Firstly E-war greatly lowers the barrier to entry as it only takes a few hours for a new player to hop into a damp frig and provide a huge advantage. Secondly these changes nerf logi so it's not adding more of it Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 13524	Posted - 2015.11.29 16:51:39 - [104] - Quote Ariz Black wrote: Fozzie what about the Nestor? And T3 logi? We had originally planned to leave the Nestor's bonus intact since it could use an additional range buff without getting out of control. However after giving it a bit more thought we've decided that 43+4 would be a bit too extreme so we're changing the Nestor range bonus to +100 optimal and falloff. This will still be a significant Nestor range buff but will leave it at a more reasonable 29+8. This is also a significant range buff to T3 Cruiser logi. We are happy to let people play with the new range and observe how it changes T3 logi use on TQ. Both the Nestor and T3 logi will also feel the slightly increased cap use, but both of those ships tend to already jump through some hoops to get the cap they need. Carthereon Crust wrote: Will current Logistics ships be receiving a buff to their base targeting range? Some of the ships (namely Minmatar) already deal with only having a few km between their max rep and target range. With falloff I imagine there's going to be a discrepancy between potential range and targeting range on some of these ships. With these changes it will be quite possible for logistics cruisers to repair (at lower than full rates) beyond their unfit targeting range. We have no current plans to increase targeting ranges for them, as they are free to use modules, implants, rigs and gang links to increase that range if they plan on operating at extreme distances. MeBiatch wrote: Any chance we will also see Ancillary remote repair mods? .. increase the rep amount then add a 40 second reload This is something we've considered before and we may very well add in the future. The trick would be ensuring that they're balanced (in different fleet sizes) and provide fun gameplay. We're still looking at the idea from some different angles to decide if those goals are achievable. One option we're considering is limiting Ancillary RR to one module per ship. Acobar wrote: How about getting logi on killmails, CCP Fozzie? Still something we'd like to do, but it's not a simple problem and as always putting engineering time on one project would mean taking it away from other ones. Lewich wrote: Why is T2 large remote rep is using 40 more PG now? WHERE'S my damn bonus PG on Guard/Oneiros? Basi/Scimi have their fitting adjusted to new shield reps. Why is armor doesnt? It's a good point. We had been looking to emphasize the choices between fitting meta or T2, but 700 would have made fittings too difficult on T2 Logi Cruisers. We've adjusted the T2 large rep powergrid back to 660. As a general point, it's nice to see about equal numbers of people commenting that we're shifting the balance too far towards either armor or shield. Probably a good sign. :) Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 320	Posted - 2015.11.29 17:29:16 - [105] - Quote Thank you for the update Fozzie! If I may be so bold as to ask, are there any plans in the works to adjust (repair amount) bonuses on T1 logi? I may be alone in this, but those bonuses make the T1 logi pretty...powerful. And I'd like to see a bit of a bigger gap between T1 and T2 logi. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
RcTamiya SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart. 28	Posted - 2015.11.29 18:46:52 - [106] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Thank you for the update Fozzie! If I may be so bold as to ask, are there any plans in the works to adjust (repair amount) bonuses on T1 logi? I may be alone in this, but those bonuses make the T1 logi pretty...powerful. And I'd like to see a bit of a bigger gap between T1 and T2 logi. t2 resists, better sig. resolution, more targeting range, more sensorstrenght, more raw hp, more pg/cpu, better cap efficiency = more difficult to neut, smaller sig...... What else do you want?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1314	Posted - 2015.11.29 18:54:41 - [107] - Quote But still why such a heavy handed nerf to the shield logi? Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Faren Shalni Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 157	Posted - 2015.11.29 19:31:50 - [108] - Quote those shield changes are awful...... In most situations you do not have time for the UI to update to see what HP they are at. you have to turn on your reps asap and hope you catch them on time (usually a server tick is the difference) 8 seconds is far too long to cycle So Much Space
Sumeragy Nemesis Logistics Nemesis Enterprises. 17	Posted - 2015.11.30 00:47:56 - [109] - Quote Faren Shalni wrote: those shield changes are awful...... In most situations you do not have time for the UI to update to see what HP they are at. you have to turn on your reps asap and hope you catch them on time (usually a server tick is the difference) 8 seconds is far too long to cycle whit boost you are around 6s bevore it was 3.3s...... well double it !!
Crazy KSK Tsunami Cartel 99	Posted - 2015.11.30 02:18:37 - [110] - Quote I feel that the range for large remote shield boosters is too short. In organized small fleets being at around 30km means being within scram range or at least web range basically making it impossible to get 100% out of your reps since you are forced to stay in falloff and as a result making armor reps just better, I feel like this will limit the ship choices for small gangs too much, heavily favoring armor fleets. Same thing for frigate logi having to go into scram/web range on the shield ones vs being able to stay outside as armor is just not balanced, yes ofc I can stay at range too but then i will loose 30% of my reps at which point armor is just better. If you really want to keep this massive range discrepancy then make the shield reps better in optimal then the armor ones are, enough to make being that close worth it. Side note: Scimitar powergrid feels a bit too low having to fit 4 power grid mods/rigs for 4x LRSB II LSE MWD CB while the basi only needs one Its fast, for that it has one less rep and has to rely on cap boosters already no need to have it fit so many fitting mods as well oh yeah it has worse cap and cap recharge too. On a general note id like to see more of the t2 logi power shifted to fitting, more fitting space also means more different modules that can be fit = more fun. Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Iyacia Cyric'ai Stimulus Rote Kapelle 183	Posted - 2015.11.30 04:12:00 - [111] - Quote Quote: Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones HULL TANKING VIABILITY CONFIRMED BOIS!
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.30 09:17:25 - [112] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Don't like the change. The player base care too much about fighting battles they can't lose, more logi means more barriers to pvp, just like the amount of Ewar we have in the game. Firstly E-war greatly lowers the barrier to entry as it only takes a few hours for a new player to hop into a damp frig and provide a huge advantage. Secondly these changes nerf logi so it's not adding more of it 1 That's the problem. A T1 fit griffin jamming out 7 year old BS pilots... That's wrong. Before you start with the "get prepared" argument it;s more the opposite. People want to fight but dock up if there are logi and ECM in fleet. 2. Leads me here. Logi and ECM kill content. They force people to do one of 2 things. A. Bring more DPS ships leading to, when they can't B. Not fight Since this is about Logi ships I will concentrate on this aspect of the game. They need a bigger nerf. When the AOE Doomsday was nerfed it was becuase they were I-Win buttons. Logi is the same. They can burn away from the fight and sit at relative safety. Same happens on low sec gates where the gate guns are not powerful enough to destroy a logi who is sat repping a suspect whilst also receiving reps. Not only that but if they are primaried they have a big enough tank to survive making any fight about bringing the most logi or they jump out of system or dock. Especially crap game play in War decks and neutral alt reppers. I don't know what the fix is but if you haven't noticed the game has lost 40K active players and a big chunk of those is becuase the content is dull boring and predictable. I feel these changes are not enough to bring content back to the game. There aren't the regular 500 vs 500 man fleets, these days its the 1 - 25 man gang roams. In a game where there is so much put on ensuring not to lose, having more logi should not be the reason why content is abandoned.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 334	Posted - 2015.11.30 13:29:05 - [113] - Quote Are there any plans to reduce optimal/falloff to make room for a skill in either of those areas? I'm thinking we could tie "Long Distance Jamming" and "Frequency Modulation" into also effecting rep modules, giving logi training a bit more to work with. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.30 14:17:15 - [114] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Are there any plans to reduce optimal/falloff to make room for a skill in either of those areas? I'm thinking we could tie "Long Distance Jamming" and "Frequency Modulation" into also effecting rep modules, giving logi training a bit more to work with. Personally No. Logi's have too much power already with regard to being able to rep 60k off fleet with quite nice tanks. why do you want to increase their range? You make close range boats pretty much redundant because they don't have enough DPS to out rep a solo scim sitting 60k away already.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 337	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:31:23 - [115] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Personally No. Logi's have too much power already with regard to being able to rep 60k off fleet with quite nice tanks. why do you want to increase their range? You make close range boats pretty much redundant because they don't have enough DPS to out rep a solo scim sitting 60k away. You also make long range boats useless to because Scims have nice tanks. I tend to play the game solo - small gang. I see the game moving in this direction since its large fleets only really happen in the stagnated boring null sec. Read it again, because you missed the very core of what I said - which was that I want to reduce their current ranges, with the option to make it back up to current proposed ranges by training skills. You know, give logi pilots more things to train for. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:43:35 - [116] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Personally No. Logi's have too much power already with regard to being able to rep 60k off fleet with quite nice tanks. why do you want to increase their range? You make close range boats pretty much redundant because they don't have enough DPS to out rep a solo scim sitting 60k away. You also make long range boats useless to because Scims have nice tanks. I tend to play the game solo - small gang. I see the game moving in this direction since its large fleets only really happen in the stagnated boring null sec. Read it again, because you missed the very core of what I said - which was that I want to reduce their current ranges, with the option to make it back up to current proposed ranges by training skills. You know, give logi pilots more things to train for. I don't need to read it again, i understood the first time and my question still stands, why do you want to help increase range to what it is set at at the moment when the range at the moment is already a safe distance. we just get back status quo.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 337	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:48:43 - [117] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: I don't need to read it again, i understood the first time You're right, judging by your statement. I found the problem.... Hilti Enaka wrote: why do you want to help increase range to what it is set at at the moment Quote: Why do you want to change things to make them the same as they are? You didn't misunderstand my question, by god, you misunderstood your own. You sir win a special cake of some kind, because that takes talent. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:51:00 - [118] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: I don't need to read it again, i understood the first time You're right, judging by your statement. I found the problem.... Hilti Enaka wrote: why do you want to help increase range to what it is set at at the moment Quote: Why do you want to change things to make them the same as they are? You didn't misunderstand my question, by god, you misunderstood your own. You sir win a special cake of some kid, because that takes talent. Whatever pumpkin. Logi already has a safe range. you want to decrease that base but give people ability to skill up. resulting in ..... status quo...
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 337	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:57:34 - [119] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Whatever pumpkin. Logi already has a safe range. you want to decrease that base but give people ability to skill up. resulting in ..... status quo... First off, ranges are already getting nerfed to a debatable degree. They're going to be less effective to a shorter range than they currently are - so the status quo is already "nerfed range". Second, the reason you didn't understand your own question is because I am not the one responsible for the status quo or the proposed ranges. The only thing I was asking for was another (existing) skill to be tied into logi training, regardless of current or proposed rep ranges. If you have a problem with the current or proposed ranges, you direct your comment to CCP Fozzie, not me. Also, you decided upon pumpkin cake. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.30 16:14:02 - [120] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Whatever pumpkin. Logi already has a safe range. you want to decrease that base but give people ability to skill up. resulting in ..... status quo... First off, ranges are already getting nerfed to a debatable degree. They're going to be less effective to a shorter range than they currently are - so the status quo is already "nerfed range". Second, the reason you didn't understand your own question is because I am not the one responsible for the status quo or the proposed ranges. The only thing I was asking for was another (existing) skill to be tied into logi training, regardless of current or proposed rep ranges. If you have a problem with the current or proposed ranges, you direct your comment to CCP Fozzie, not me. Also, you decided upon pumpkin cake. This isn't a nerf of any sort you're still looking at providing a good amount of HP at a safe range. All that's going to happen is: 1. Fleets bring more logi 2. Content doesn't play out. You said "Are there any plans to reduce optimal/falloff to make room for a skill in either of those areas?" To which I asked why should there be.

Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 337	Posted - 2015.11.30 16:28:38 - [121] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: This isn't a nerf of any sort you're still looking at providing a good amount of HP at a safe range. All that's going to happen is: 1. Fleets bring more logi 2. Content doesn't play out. You said "Are there any plans to reduce optimal/falloff to make room for a skill in either of those areas?" To which I asked why should there be. Now you're misrepresenting what you said. You asked "why do you want to increase their range?". In other words, you didn't question my suggestion, you questioned a false premise I never proposed, of introducing more range to the changes laid out by Fozzie. I corrected you on that, twice. It is only now that you're putting forth that question "why should there be (additional skill training)". That is the first valid question you've posed so far and I will answer it thusly: because other aspects of ship operations and module operations have set a precedence for this type of skill training, and I think it would be good for logi to get the same treatment." To refer back to my original post that you replied to, I cited the skills that effect EWAR optimal and falloff. There's a direct comparison to what I'm asking for. Indirectly, we've had other aspects of the game altered to "nerf, but skill back to normal" in the way of sensor strength skills. Between those two precedents, I think it's entirely fair to ask CCP if they would like to consider altering the optimal and falloff ranges of reps whatever they decide them to be, a choice not made by me and do not make me correct you a third time, to make them akin to training other ship roles. That's it. I just think it makes for a more interesting game. It doesn't make it or break it for me. It's just an idea I was bouncing off the Devs. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1004	Posted - 2015.11.30 16:39:14 - [122] - Quote I have a proposal that may be a bit off the wall, but I feel this change gives us more opportunity to add variation to the hulls. As they sit now, the only difference is armor/shield and cap chain/no chain Proposal Amarr - Shorter logi range, cap chain, heavier tank, higher sensor strength, faster cycle time Caldari - Shorter logi range, cap chain, higher velocity/agility, higher sensor strength, higher remote boost (in exchange for cap) Minmatar - Longer logi range, no cap chain, higher velocity/agility, faster cycle time Gallente - Greatest logi range, no cap chain, heavier tank, higher boost amount I can't think straight right now, so I'm likely missing something here.. Having said that, this would give variation to each ship and would introduce situational aspects to the ships.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.11.30 17:00:24 - [123] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: This isn't a nerf of any sort you're still looking at providing a good amount of HP at a safe range. All that's going to happen is: 1. Fleets bring more logi 2. Content doesn't play out. You said "Are there any plans to reduce optimal/falloff to make room for a skill in either of those areas?" To which I asked why should there be. Now you're misrepresenting what you said. You asked "why do you want to increase their range?". In other words, you didn't question my suggestion, you questioned a false premise I never proposed, of introducing more range to the changes laid out by Fozzie. I corrected you on that, twice. It is only now that you're putting forth that question "why should there be (additional skill training)". That is the first valid question you've posed so far and I will answer it thusly: because other aspects of ship operations and module operations have set a precedence for this type of skill training, and I think it would be good for logi to get the same treatment." To refer back to my original post that you replied to, I cited the skills that effect EWAR optimal and falloff. There's a direct comparison to what I'm asking for. Indirectly, we've had other aspects of the game altered to "nerf, but skill back to normal" in the way of sensor strength skills. Between those two precedents, I think it's entirely fair to ask CCP if they would like to consider altering the optimal and falloff ranges of reps whatever they decide them to be, a choice not made by me and do not make me correct you a third time, to make them akin to training other ship roles. That's it. I just think it makes for a more interesting game. It doesn't make it or break it for me. It's just an idea I was bouncing off the Devs. So really you knew what i meant :) and got a bit touchy of nothing. I knew that's what you meant lowering optimal/fall off and giving a skill to bring it up to current range. I still don't think that makes an interesting game play. It just means people train for a month and are back doing what i feel is stopping content. Proposal for me is to sacrifice tank for reps. Similar to how OGB works with Command process modules. If it's a close engagement logi needs tank but is limited to the number of Remote Rep units it can fit. If it's sat at distance then with the optimal/fall-off multiplier it means they have to give more reps therefore they should have to fit a "Logi Command" module in their mids/lows. I do find the thought of having remote reps based on ammo more open to player skill rather than cap chain.
Kithran 119	Posted - 2015.12.01 11:53:11 - [124] - Quote Is there a reason Capital Shield reps use the same amount of PG for both Tech 1 and Concord variants when the Armor version have a 10% reduction to both CPU and PG usage.
Sahriah BloodStone No.Mercy Triumvirate. 241	Posted - 2015.12.01 19:15:27 - [125] - Quote Between this and the new shield/armor effects, I would really love you guys to add in a 'Broadcast Friendly Target' button so us Logi FC's can coordinate reps more effectively. Sahriah Bloodstone Praetor, No.Mercy "Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "
Lugh Crow-Slave 1320	Posted - 2015.12.02 06:45:54 - [126] - Quote Kithran wrote: Is there a reason Capital Shield reps use the same amount of PG for both Tech 1 and Concord variants when the Armor version have a 10% reduction to both CPU and PG usage. Probably the same unknown reason shield is getting the short end of the stick in all the changes with this Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
ODSTSNAKEZZ No Vacancies 6	Posted - 2015.12.02 10:20:41 - [127] - Quote I'm concerned about how the changes to cap amount will affect alpha neut geddons. Currently a single geddon is able to alpha two guardians cap to zero in a single cycle to try and shut off a cap chain but with these changes this will only be possible using bhaalgorns which lack the range bonus to catch logi.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 931	Posted - 2015.12.02 10:29:52 - [128] - Quote Why do we need yet another Caldari nerf? The Osprey used to be a good and newbro friendly logi boat since Retribution (not the ship) and now it is gimped by occupational hazzard? Why did you gimp the cap chain range to lol? Unless you give an energy beam pulse weapon thing to cap x-fer modules I don't like what is happening to them. Armor all the thingies I guess.. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1321	Posted - 2015.12.02 10:59:59 - [129] - Quote ODSTSNAKEZZ wrote: I'm concerned about how the changes to cap amount will affect alpha neut geddons. Currently a single geddon is able to alpha two guardians cap to zero in a single cycle to try and shut off a cap chain but with these changes this will only be possible using bhaalgorns which lack the range bonus to catch logi. Well logi is also being forced in closer and the total range of nuets is being extended not to mention the cap cozy of logi mods is gong up Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Lilli Tane The Scope Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.12.02 14:00:23 - [130] - Quote I like it!!! ButGÇª Current T2 cruiser Lock ranges Guardian Min GÇô 65Kms Max - 81,25Kms Basilisk Min 80Kms Max 100Kms Scimitar Min GÇô 60Kms Max GÇô 75Kms Oneiros Min - 70Kms Max GÇô 87,5Kms Armors logi will maintains well inside the optimal witch seem to be the proposed of the change but will not be able to take advantage of the less effective falloff due to lack of lock range, and will sti, still work at the 20% effectiveness range. Shield logi on the other hand got the GÇ£dirty end of the stickGÇ¥, the Basi will still work till around the 30% effectiveness range, with 100 Kms lock range, while the Scimmi, will only work till the 60% effectiveness range with 75Kms max lock rangeGÇª however, the change was Quote: GÇ£Shield reps are more focused on falloff.GÇ¥ Witch puzzles me in the Scimmi particular case. Still, was already stated that there are no plans on changing lock ranges. Another good question is cap stability... what are the numbers? Guardians and Basis had around 30 seconds running everything with perfect skills what have it come down to? Scimi was relatively easy to fit stable will that still be possible? Oneiros was very dependent on Cap boosters or gimped fits to be stable, is that still the case? Finally energy transfer What will happen to their ranges, Will they maintain the 150% bonus for now? Will they be lowered to the 60% with no changes to the modules?

Sayod Physulem EVE University Ivy League 42	Posted - 2015.12.02 15:48:30 - [131] - Quote What may be overlooked... We once fought against chessur and his small gang in a uni blob (on the way back from a poco defense op or something? not entirely sure anymore) anyway they kited us, our tackle tried to catch them, got out of range of logi, got killed, we always tried to warp to them and get reps in, but at the time we landed we were often already close to being out of range again, add to this all the reestablish cap chain hassle, and you get an idea of the stress caused by that. Now with falloff we would have been able to just rep our tackle compfortably when we were completely out of range before. So we probably wouldn't have lost anyone, yes reps would have been less effective but we were so many... So this really makes it easier for larger groups not harder (just because eve media spread the word, that those logistics nerfs were about people whinning about them reinforcing n+1, but maybe I missed the point) The cycle time increases are a good idea though, and I kind of like the idea of falloff although I am concerned about them for the reason I stated above.
Alexis Nightwish 357	Posted - 2015.12.02 23:01:31 - [132] - Quote So this change will: Nerf the already poor range that frig logi has. A shame as I was really looking forward to frig fleets with real logi. Nerf the Scimitar and Oneiros by hitting them in their one redeeming feature: cap stability. No one will notice as Guardians/Basilisks are the only ones flown anyway. The cap chain will give no fucks about the increased RR cap cost. Do nothing to reduce the ludicrous amount of healing a T2 logi can put out. It will just force Guardians 10km closer. You really had a chance here to make cruiser logi only get bonuses to medium RR and you blew it CCP. In addition to the above, by not making medium ships use medium RR you keep the door closed on the potential of being able to add BS class logistic ships in the future. But you hate BS so I guess this is status quo. Remove even the snowball's chance in hell of shield ships ever being used in large fleet battles. In large battles either they alpha you, or they don't. But armor with it's higher base HP, better resists, and now clearly better repair capabilities (max reps at 45ish for capitals and 60sih for subcaps vs max reps at 30ish for shields which will cycle slower), there will be zero chance shield ships will be intentionally used in large engagements. Make shield gangs more vulnerable to bombs due to the logi needing to be w/in 30km of their targets to apply full reps. Alternatively they can stay at about 40km and live with (and maybe lose ships due to?) the 5-10% penalty. Remove shield RR's advantage over armor RR of being able to apply reps more quickly. Now it will suffer falloff penalties at fairly short range and cycles slower. I am aware that shield reps at the start of the cycle but really that only matters for the first cycle. After that it's all about the cycle time of the module. Prevent the much better system of using sig radius to determine applied reps from ever being implemented. Oh, BTW thanks for putting this out to us far enough in advance of implementation that we can give feedback that won't be ignored. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2951	Posted - 2015.12.03 03:33:55 - [133] - Quote I really do think shield has got the shaft. 60km optimals for cruiser logis with armour is so close to current meta it's almost not even a change. So you lose long range repping power for the Oneiros, big deal; Guardian's still going to be pumping out reps to 80km just fine. A 4 x 2 @ 80 is like a 3 x 3 @ 60. The change to Guardian capacitor pool is also terrible. You can make a solo 5 x 1 fit which is cap stable at 65% with 3 outbound reps and no cap chain. I can't see how that's actually a change for the better. Memcell + CPR's FTW. This means that if you do break a cap chain, it don't matter, Guards still going to rep 100% efficiency @ 60km. The shield falloff means that Scimis are basically useless unless they go within 30km, which is kinda not the idea with solo logis. At their usual engagement range you get 75% or less efficiency. I think a great opportunity has been missed to differentiate based more on the racial nature of the logi cruisers, versus the armour/shield distinction. both armour and shield should have solo logis (Scythe/Exequror and Scimi/oneiros) get the Optimal bonus and 60km efficiency on reps. The chaining logis (Osprey/Augoror and Basi/Guard) should suffer the falloff to rep range because they get the utility of capacitor exchange. As it stands now, everything except the Guardian and (maybe) Augoror lose out. Guards get more cap, capacitor exchange, T2 resists, low-sig (ridiculously low, thanks Fozzie), 100K+ EHP fits, 4 large reps 100% efficient to 60km, and capacitor chains efficient to 70km. Basis are next best, with average capacitor, capacitor exchange 100% efficient to 70km, but they get shield RR falloff beyond 30km, lower EHP, higher sig, sluggish speed, lower cycle times and so on. Still OK. Oneiros gets 60km range, tetchy cap, mediocre sig (not as dumb as Guards @ 70 or less), solo capacitor pools, relatively slow, but overall not so bad. Scimis get the shaft here. Crap lock range. Huge sig. 3 Large RRs and suffering falloff unless deep in heavy neut range, unable to fit and run 4 large RRs, crap sensor strength, crap tank which will probably be crapper due to needing to fit a SeBo. I just can't see this really changing the meta to a meaningful way except to really reinforce Slippery Pete fleets and Cerbs and kiters who don't really rely on RR too much, as being the preferred option. Yes, you will see the addition of falloff for RR affecting the meta, by doing away with viable RR for fast light fleets, and relying instead on cancerous alpha fleets with no realistic large-scale counter (Petes). The only logi fleets wil be guardian-supported. Nothing has really changed here to make a Guardian's job that much harder, it will jjust mean people will concentrate ever harder on hard-to-alpha hulls like low-sig Legions, bricked Prots etc. Weaker armour hulls (prophs, harbs, BS) will be lost more often due to alpha and cycle times and switching, but not the legion/prot dominated T3 blobs. overall, a terrible missed opportunity to really drive the dynamic toward solo vs chained logis, versus armour vs Petes. ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 935	Posted - 2015.12.03 04:31:27 - [134] - Quote Lilli Tane wrote: I like it!!! ButGÇª Current T2 cruiser Lock ranges... Is being increased by becoming purple. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1061	Posted - 2015.12.03 19:48:17 - [135] - Quote I used to be interested enough in this game to learn about all this ****. It's getting pretty old relearning most everything again. Not today spaghetti.
Jacques the Repper The Goatee Appreciation Club 0	Posted - 2015.12.03 21:10:23 - [136] - Quote *All T1 and T2 Cruiser Rep Drone bonuses will now apply to hull rep drones as well as armor and shield* Okay, does this mean that, say, a Scimi will get drone bonuses for just shield and hull bots, or that it will get drone bonuses for shield, armor, and hull bots, because it isn't really clear the way that you worded it. IOW, when you say hull rep drones, are those just being added to what the bonuses are now or will the logis now just get all rep drones across the board? Oh, and for another useful Logi thing, could you add distance to the fleet watch list features, especially if we are going to have to figure out range more?
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2953	Posted - 2015.12.04 00:43:07 - [137] - Quote mate, just have an overview tab with your fleet mates on it, and sort by distance. ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Alexis Nightwish 358	Posted - 2015.12.04 04:40:49 - [138] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: I really do think shield has got the shaft. 60km optimals for cruiser logis with armour is so close to current meta it's almost not even a change. So you lose long range repping power for the Oneiros, big deal; Guardian's still going to be pumping out reps to 80km just fine. A 4 x 2 @ 80 is like a 3 x 3 @ 60. The change to Guardian capacitor pool is also terrible. You can make a solo 5 x 1 fit which is cap stable at 65% with 3 outbound reps and no cap chain. I can't see how that's actually a change for the better. Memcell + CPR's FTW. This means that if you do break a cap chain, it don't matter, Guards still going to rep 100% efficiency @ 60km. The shield falloff means that Scimis are basically useless unless they go within 30km, which is kinda not the idea with solo logis. At their usual engagement range you get 75% or less efficiency. I think a great opportunity has been missed to differentiate based more on the racial nature of the logi cruisers, versus the armour/shield distinction. both armour and shield should have solo logis (Scythe/Exequror and Scimi/oneiros) get the Optimal bonus and 60km efficiency on reps. The chaining logis (Osprey/Augoror and Basi/Guard) should suffer the falloff to rep range because they get the utility of capacitor exchange. As it stands now, everything except the Guardian and (maybe) Augoror lose out. Guards get more cap, capacitor exchange, T2 resists, low-sig (ridiculously low, thanks Fozzie), 100K+ EHP fits, 4 large reps 100% efficient to 60km, and capacitor chains efficient to 70km. Basis are next best, with average capacitor, capacitor exchange 100% efficient to 70km, but they get shield RR falloff beyond 30km, lower EHP, higher sig, sluggish speed, lower cycle times and so on. Still OK. Oneiros gets 60km range, tetchy cap, mediocre sig (not as dumb as Guards @ 70 or less), solo capacitor pools, relatively slow, but overall not so bad. Scimis get the shaft here. Crap lock range. Huge sig. 3 Large RRs and suffering falloff unless deep in heavy neut range, unable to fit and run 4 large RRs, crap sensor strength, crap tank which will probably be crapper due to needing to fit a SeBo. I just can't see this really changing the meta to a meaningful way except to really reinforce Slippery Pete fleets and Cerbs and kiters who don't really rely on RR too much, as being the preferred option. Yes, you will see the addition of falloff for RR affecting the meta, by doing away with viable RR for fast light fleets, and relying instead on cancerous alpha fleets with no realistic large-scale counter (Petes). The only logi fleets wil be guardian-supported. Nothing has really changed here to make a Guardian's job that much harder, it will jjust mean people will concentrate ever harder on hard-to-alpha hulls like low-sig Legions, bricked Prots etc. Weaker armour hulls (prophs, harbs, BS) will be lost more often due to alpha and cycle times and switching, but not the legion/prot dominated T3 blobs. overall, a terrible missed opportunity to really drive the dynamic toward solo vs chained logis, versus armour vs Petes. This. ALL of this. Especially the part I enhanced. Giving the solo logi the optimal range, and the cap chain logi the falloff is simply brilliant. But it won't happen. That's not CCP's MO. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Super Miguel Arsenic. The Volition Cult 5	Posted - 2015.12.04 15:15:29 - [139] - Quote people that have logistics 5 will they get grandfathered in with frigs logistics 5? Will the new cruise logistics have the same SP as the old one?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1324	Posted - 2015.12.04 16:36:28 - [140] - Quote Super Miguel wrote: people that have logistics 5 will they get grandfathered in with frigs logistics 5? Will the new cruise logistics have the same SP as the old one? No Yes why would you get grandfathered in and why would sp change Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis

Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2856	Posted - 2015.12.04 23:34:27 - [141] - Quote I really feel the 'scoped' meta modules are somewhat lacking in their range, at least compared to T2. They sit almost midway between T2 and the rest, rather than being closer to the longer T2 range, and combined with almost better everything else, it makes T2 that much more desirable. I think the ranged module should be s bit closer to T2 range to make them a real choice.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1328	Posted - 2015.12.06 15:06:39 - [142] - Quote So we are nearly there and the only feedback it sends they have taken is lowering the armor rep PG well rip shield fleets:/ Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
LordInvisible Nova Ardour Dixie Normus. 19	Posted - 2015.12.07 12:01:16 - [143] - Quote I'm still not sure if CCP actually plays all the styles of gameplay that we have available. They "fixed" blob RR problem (kind of..) but they introduced even more OP tactics for us, empire warriors. Since we (as in solo station huggers) tend to fight 1vs1 alot, a neutral RR is now even easier to pull off. In 1vs1 fights there only needs to be a small RR available for game to turn around. And with shield RR now orbiting at 70km, where is impossible to catch it, heck, even ECM it, altough with less shield boost in falloff its still mandatory to have neutral RR alt parked somewhere close. At least frigs are gonna be in heavy neut range, right?! RIGHT?!?!? And dont tell me about best ship is friendship. I like to play alone, but with every patch there is more struggle for solo pvp. Its either blob or go back to lvl4.
Zero Conscience DPS-K 5	Posted - 2015.12.08 11:53:27 - [144] - Quote Its all about destroying ship and taking stuff. DONT BUFF LOGI. srsly more specically the t2 cruiser link up. Oni/Guard are OP all ready
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 915	Posted - 2015.12.08 14:36:20 - [145] - Quote LordInvisible wrote: I'm still not sure if CCP actually plays all the styles of gameplay that we have available. They "fixed" blob RR problem (kind of..) but they introduced even more OP tactics for us, empire warriors. Since we (as in solo station huggers) tend to fight 1vs1 alot, a neutral RR is now even easier to pull off. In 1vs1 fights there only needs to be a small RR available for game to turn around. And with shield RR now orbiting at 70km, where is impossible to catch it, heck, even ECM it, altough with less shield boost in falloff its still mandatory to have neutral RR alt parked somewhere close. At least frigs are gonna be in heavy neut range, right?! RIGHT?!?!? And dont tell me about best ship is friendship. I like to play alone, but with every patch there is more struggle for solo pvp. Its either blob or go back to lvl4. Doesn't sound like you are playing solo if you are using alts for RR.
LordInvisible Nova Ardour Dixie Normus. 19	Posted - 2015.12.08 20:21:02 - [146] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Doesn't sound like you are playing solo if you are using alts for RR. where did I mention me using RR? I'm worried about my opponents using one, now even further out of my solo ship reach..
Lugh Crow-Slave 1333	Posted - 2015.12.09 12:47:15 - [147] - Quote LordInvisible wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: Doesn't sound like you are playing solo if you are using alts for RR. where did I mention me using RR? I'm worried about my opponents using one, now even further out of my solo ship reach.. The lock range didn't go up fit a damp Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Ghaustyl Kathix Quantum Singularities Half Massed 65	Posted - 2015.12.10 18:05:21 - [148] - Quote I feel like all the changes together are too much of a nerf. It's like CCP listed off all the qualities that could be nerfed on logi (cap use, range, repair amount, cap use, fitting, cycle time) and decided to nerf all of them, while keeping all the same counters, making one of the counters more effective (target switching does more now that cycle time's worse), and adding a new counter (command destroyers can teleport logi away now). Even though the meta 4 reppers became the new compact versions, my Guardians and Augorors no longer fit, and would still be less effective even if they were. I have to either give them frigate-sized tanks or leave an empty high slot to make them fit again. All for a ship's easily countered, requires almost perfect related skills in order to fly at all, and can't do anything on its own. And people are still saying they need to stacking penalize, have signature radius reduce repairs, or have a dedicated anti-repair EWAR module?
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 18	Posted - 2015.12.10 18:59:01 - [149] - Quote And most of the support ships are way cap unstable now. I wonder how many gangs died horribly since their logi forgot to check the ship fitting after patch before they undocked..
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 18	Posted - 2015.12.10 19:51:57 - [150] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: I feel like all the changes together are too much of a nerf. It's like CCP listed off all the qualities that could be nerfed on logi (cap use, range, repair amount, cap use, fitting, cycle time) and decided to nerf all of them, while keeping all the same counters, making one of the counters more effective (target switching does more now that cycle time's worse), and adding a new counter (command destroyers can teleport logi away now). Even though the meta 4 reppers became the new compact versions, my Guardians and Augorors no longer fit, and would still be less effective even if they were. I have to either give them frigate-sized tanks or leave an empty high slot to make them fit again. All for a ship's easily countered, requires almost perfect related skills in order to fly at all, and can't do anything on its own. And people are still saying they need to stacking penalize, have signature radius reduce repairs, or have a dedicated anti-repair EWAR module? Cap warfare is anti Logi/support. ECM works pretty well too.

Ghaustyl Kathix Quantum Singularities Half Massed 65	Posted - 2015.12.10 20:17:49 - [151] - Quote Vailen Sere wrote: Cap warfare is anti Logi/support. ECM works pretty well too. I know, that's what I mean. Sensor damps, ECM, cap warfare, target-switching, mass-MJDs, fleet maneuvering and raw DPS/alpha are all very possible counters for logi. The design philosophy for this rework was "Now there's a way for players to show their skill," but I'd argue the opposite. It's a straight nerf, and just makes logi more susceptible to counters that already worked perfectly fine anyway. If anything, they should've made the fitting and cap use a little less tight so pilots can run them at all without needing to be perfect at them; that's how to let logi pilots show skill.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 551	Posted - 2015.12.11 01:59:08 - [152] - Quote SO why did you nerf the t2 reps? t2 reps used to be always chosen because of faster cycle time. versus more grid for more reps Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Lugh Crow-Slave 1362	Posted - 2015.12.12 14:18:18 - [153] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: I feel like all the changes together are too much of a nerf. It's like CCP listed off all the qualities that could be nerfed on logi (cap use, range, repair amount, cap use, fitting, cycle time) and decided to nerf all of them, while keeping all the same counters, making one of the counters more effective (target switching does more now that cycle time's worse), and adding a new counter (command destroyers can teleport logi away now). Even though the meta 4 reppers became the new compact versions, my Guardians and Augorors no longer fit, and would still be less effective even if they were. I have to either give them frigate-sized tanks or leave an empty high slot to make them fit again. All for a ship's easily countered, requires almost perfect related skills in order to fly at all, and can't do anything on its own. And people are still saying they need to stacking penalize, have signature radius reduce repairs, or have a dedicated anti-repair EWAR module? At least you fly armor shield has become a joke after this Armor, better hp/s better cycle time longer effective range onto of it anyway having better buffer and resists to amplify the effect of logistics. Shield, reps at start of cycle. .... woo any competent logi pilot can fly well enough that dealing with reps at the end of a cycle is not that big of a disadvantage Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
RcTamiya SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart. 54	Posted - 2015.12.12 15:48:33 - [154] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: I feel like all the changes together are too much of a nerf. It's like CCP listed off all the qualities that could be nerfed on logi (cap use, range, repair amount, cap use, fitting, cycle time) and decided to nerf all of them, while keeping all the same counters, making one of the counters more effective (target switching does more now that cycle time's worse), and adding a new counter (command destroyers can teleport logi away now). Even though the meta 4 reppers became the new compact versions, my Guardians and Augorors no longer fit, and would still be less effective even if they were. I have to either give them frigate-sized tanks or leave an empty high slot to make them fit again. All for a ship's easily countered, requires almost perfect related skills in order to fly at all, and can't do anything on its own. And people are still saying they need to stacking penalize, have signature radius reduce repairs, or have a dedicated anti-repair EWAR module? At least you fly armor shield has become a joke after this Armor, better hp/s better cycle time longer effective range onto of it anyway having better buffer and resists to amplify the effect of logistics. Shield, reps at start of cycle. .... woo any competent logi pilot can fly well enough that dealing with reps at the end of a cycle is not that big of a disadvantage shield logi = has it easier to counter alpha armor logi = has it easier to counter sustained dps both however are viable ....
Lugh Crow-Slave 1362	Posted - 2015.12.12 23:45:57 - [155] - Quote RcTamiya wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: I feel like all the changes together are too much of a nerf. It's like CCP listed off all the qualities that could be nerfed on logi (cap use, range, repair amount, cap use, fitting, cycle time) and decided to nerf all of them, while keeping all the same counters, making one of the counters more effective (target switching does more now that cycle time's worse), and adding a new counter (command destroyers can teleport logi away now). Even though the meta 4 reppers became the new compact versions, my Guardians and Augorors no longer fit, and would still be less effective even if they were. I have to either give them frigate-sized tanks or leave an empty high slot to make them fit again. All for a ship's easily countered, requires almost perfect related skills in order to fly at all, and can't do anything on its own. And people are still saying they need to stacking penalize, have signature radius reduce repairs, or have a dedicated anti-repair EWAR module? At least you fly armor shield has become a joke after this Armor, better hp/s better cycle time longer effective range onto of it anyway having better buffer and resists to amplify the effect of logistics. Shield, reps at start of cycle. .... woo any competent logi pilot can fly well enough that dealing with reps at the end of a cycle is not that big of a disadvantage shield logi = has it easier to counter alpha armor logi = has it easier to counter sustained dps both however are viable .... If that were the case it was all that separated them it would be great To bad armor counters alpha better Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
suicide The Exit Plan Test Alliance Please Ignore 29	Posted - 2015.12.13 19:05:51 - [156] - Quote I am super late to this party however could we change the medium cycle times to something between S and L cycle times? It seems to me to be a slam-dunk obvious change.
Kaldi Tsukaya Deveron Shipyards and Technology 197	Posted - 2015.12.14 08:42:05 - [157] - Quote Wow, why so much change in the PG/CPU? I have to rework almost every single logi fitting to squeeze them into the hulls. Solo logi fits are no longer cap stable. Wait, I have a couple meta-fit T1 frigs that are stable (but over CPU/PG). Not much use for bantams and navitas though Bye-bye shield, hello armor. Is it possible to look at adding "remote shield augmentor "rigs, to match the armor ones? ...back to the fitting screens...
PlantythePottedPlant Ultima Unitatis No Points Necessary 22	Posted - 2015.12.14 09:13:04 - [158] - Quote Kaldi Tsukaya wrote: Wow, why so much change in the PG/CPU? I have to rework almost every single logi fitting to squeeze them into the hulls. Solo logi fits are no longer cap stable. Wait, I have a couple meta-fit T1 frigs that are stable (but over CPU/PG). Not much use for bantams and navitas though Bye-bye shield, hello armor. Is it possible to look at adding "remote shield augmentor "rigs, to match the armor ones? ...back to the fitting screens... If you replace whatever remote repairer you have on the fit with the compact versions, it should fit I think.
Kaldi Tsukaya Deveron Shipyards and Technology 197	Posted - 2015.12.14 15:15:39 - [159] - Quote PlantythePottedPlant wrote: If you replace whatever remote repairer you have on the fit with the compact versions, it should fit I think. Somewhat true. I should have paid more attention to the details before this release. Basi and Guard fits are mostly ok but all the others required re-work. Scimi could use those remote shield augmentor rigs. Eh I'll stop whining now
Tassadar Gantrithor Easy Co. Get Off My Lawn 0	Posted - 2015.12.14 22:26:43 - [160] - Quote Would it be possible to get the exact formula that the graphs are derived from? To be able to calculate the exact point at which certain values are present instead of by visual guessing from a very limited graph.

Ghaustyl Kathix Quantum Singularities Half Massed 65	Posted - 2015.12.15 15:34:52 - [161] - Quote Kaldi Tsukaya wrote: Solo logi fits are no longer cap stable. The idea is that you shouldn't be able to run all of your repairers stable anymore. Just like how every cruiser has a hard time running all of its guns, y'know?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2881	Posted - 2015.12.15 23:17:23 - [162] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: The idea is that you shouldn't be able to run all of your repairers stable anymore. Just like how every cruiser has a hard time running all of its guns, y'know? Except the 75% of them that don't have trouble running their guns/launchers/drones. So pretty much just the Amarr cruisers and maybe the Thorax. However I'm quite sure you can also make cap stable solo logi fits. Just the old ones are no longer cap stable and you need to invest more into it.
PlantythePottedPlant Ultima Unitatis No Points Necessary 22	Posted - 2015.12.16 01:58:07 - [163] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: The idea is that you shouldn't be able to run all of your repairers stable anymore. Just like how every cruiser has a hard time running all of its guns, y'know? Except the 75% of them that don't have trouble running their guns/launchers/drones. So pretty much just the Amarr cruisers and maybe the Thorax. However I'm quite sure you can also make cap stable solo logi fits. Just the old ones are no longer cap stable and you need to invest more into it. I imagine the original quote was sarcasm. Also, yea you can make them cap stable for sure. It's just you have to trade off for it, even more so than you used to. It's a straight nerf to only the exeq/Oneiros/Scythe/Scimi for a reason that's not clear, given the Aug/Guard/Osprey/Basi are all relatively untouched by the change to cap stability. The only change to my guard/aug/osprey/basi fits were changing the reppers to the compact versions and then they were fully cap stable. Sure, they're less resistant to neuts, but then if you were under serious neut pressure in the first place chances are you were in a bit of trouble.
Kenhi sama Konstrukteure der Zukunft The Initiative. 7	Posted - 2015.12.23 14:44:49 - [164] - Quote what happened to the "pacifier" lrar ? Did you forgot it?
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 18	Posted - 2016.01.14 21:55:03 - [165] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Vailen Sere wrote: Cap warfare is anti Logi/support. ECM works pretty well too. I know, that's what I mean. Sensor damps, ECM, cap warfare, target-switching, mass-MJDs, fleet maneuvering and raw DPS/alpha are all very possible counters for logi. The design philosophy for this rework was "Now there's a way for players to show their skill," but I'd argue the opposite. It's a straight nerf, and just makes logi more susceptible to counters that already worked perfectly fine anyway. If anything, they should've made the fitting and cap use a little less tight so pilots can run them at all without needing to be perfect at them; that's how to let logi pilots show skill. They are also now less new bro friendly. a decent fit before is now very cap hungry on the exequrer and the scythe. the cost increase was very noticeable. Anyone with mediocre skills is not going to be cap stable in those 2 ships.
Asa Torne Restinotia Corp 0	Posted - 2016.01.16 01:52:55 - [166] - Quote Someone may likely have brought this up, but I haven't run across it -- now that these mod have optimal and FO, is there a chance of introducing skills that would increase them?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2896	Posted - 2016.01.16 01:54:34 - [167] - Quote Vailen Sere wrote: They are also now less new bro friendly. a decent fit before is now very cap hungry on the exequrer and the scythe. the cost increase was very noticeable. Anyone with mediocre skills is not going to be cap stable in those 2 ships. Cap booster, short burst fights. Also you don't have to fit for max reps for a newbro.
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 18	Posted - 2016.01.18 23:05:01 - [168] - Quote Asa Torne wrote: Someone may likely have brought this up, but I haven't run across it -- now that these mod have optimal and FO, is there a chance of introducing skills that would increase them? With current ranges, it's really not necessary.
Hafthor HC - Metazoa Suidae The Last Chancers. 0	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:20:41 - [169] - Quote Kenhi sama wrote: what happened to the "pacifier" lrar ? Did you forgot it? I too would like to know what exactly is up with this module, the blueprint is still being rewarded (in COSMOS) but the item has no market entry and doesn't seem to have been re-balanced along with the other variations.


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