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Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:01:00 -
[1]
I'm not going to discuss 0.0 here because that's a whole other ballgame: warp bubbles, huge gate camps, 90% of the space is empty, with the other 10% locked down by alliances etc.
I like low-sec because it doesn't present these major problems for solo and small gang pvp/pirating. But the thing is, there isn't any incentive for players to live/play in lowsec systems. I've been flying between numerous lowsec pockets, looking for targets of any type, just to see what is out there.
What I've experienced is this: 95% of the players I find in local are docked. The other 5% are either at a gate (0km), on a mission (impossible to probe out), or at a deathstar POS mucking about.
I think that in Eve players quickly settle into two major groups: those who end up in deep 0.0/alliance space, and those who stick to empire. The more experienced players don't hang around in lowsec when they can just join a corp/alliance that is already in deep 0.0 space and offers much better rewards in terms of minerals and NPCs. The Empire guys just sit and run missions and avoid traveling into lowsec systems whenever possible.
Belt piracy is pretty much 100% dead at this point in my opinion. I've been cruising through little pockets of low sec systems with multiple characters, checking belts and stuff and I very rarely come across a ship in a belt, and when I do it's some noob player who's too new to know better. There simply isn't any reason for the experienced or semi-experienced (4-6 month players) players to be in a lowsec belt ratting/mining.
I only see mission runners, and those I only see very briefly as they warp off to their mission and then warp back at 0km and instadock. I don't even bother wasting probes on them anymore. With maxed probe strength skills and nearing max probe speed skills, I find about one out of a hundred mission runners I try and probe out. And by the time that I actually scan them down, they've completed the mission and warped back to the station.
This game is becoming increasingly polarized with very little in-between the two extremes. I used to be able to get 20-30 kills a day easily, now I'm lucky if I can find one or two, and that's if I fly all over the place scouring system after system looking for targets. Since the introduction of Revelations it has become increasingly easy to avoid almost any fight. Even bubbles don't really matter anymore- just log off.
Players have so much time between the time that they know they might be in danger of being attacked and having the attacker warp in on them, it's almost impossible to lock them down before they can warp to a safe spot etc.
But getting back to the main point, the real problem is simply a complete lack of population in the belts. Any suggestions?
I'm thinking- bigger rats and better ore in the belts for a start.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. |
Daddy's Belt
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:10:00 -
[2]
Your alliance might ask you what you're doing ganking noobs in Empire when you've got 0.0 to defend. No wonder LV is hurting so much lately.
Someone's gonna get a buttwhippin'! |
Kerushi
Caldari BIG
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:11:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Kerushi on 20/01/2007 02:07:45 u`ll have to put rare ores in low sec if u even want to make ppl think about moving to low sec
0.0 is alot safer and easy to get to low sec u have ppl roaming all day long just for a kill like u`ve said, for pritty much the same isk as in high sec
personally, i won`t go into low sec except for making a carrier run or for a pos, easier to make money in high sec then low sec
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:13:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I used to be able to get 20-30 kills a day easily...
You don't think that would have anything to do with less people showing an interest in low sec, do you?
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:18:00 -
[5]
The only incentives that would bring appreciable amounts of people out of Empire and into LoSec would have to be high enough that you would instead attract Alliance corps instead.
Simply the majority of people in Empire don't want to pew pew at each other all day. They don't want to be ganked, hunted down, lose ships and fittings and get their factions borked because of someone else's desire to shoot something. Most of them don't care if you want to shoot at someone, but they don't want to be the targets hence will stay away.
Simply they feel the risk of losing ships to pirates too high to exceed the potential gain. Pirates have done their job too well; now they are paying the price for that success in the loss of targets. The only way to get the majority of players out of Empire would be to "prove" that piracy was nerfed or that they would be able to make enough to counter the losses.
Either way its not likely to happen. <-----------> MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests....
LowSec != NoSec
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Daddy's Belt Your alliance might ask you what you're doing ganking noobs in Empire when you've got 0.0 to defend. No wonder LV is hurting so much lately.
All because they are in empire doesn't mean they are noobs Well known fact: most facts aren't well known |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Patch86 on 20/01/2007 02:16:40 I think low-sec needs something.........unique.
Empire has safety. Making low-sec more safe will never draw crowds, since those after safety always have Empire.
0.0 has wealth. No matter how much you increase the value of low-sec, it won't make much of a difference as 0.0 will always be more valuable.
So what do we give low-sec? Something that it will have that neither 0.0 nor Empire wll have. The obvious answer- Level 5 agents. The fabled uber-hard teamworks-a-must missions, with big tasty rewards (which AREN'T just more money- some unique LP offers could work). This will ensure that any truly dedicated NPCing force really really have a reason to go to low-sec, and not 0.0.
But that doesn't really help revive the at-belt / warpable object problem. So what we need to do is add more warpable objects (other than belts) that only low-sec will have. And heres my brilliant idea of the day:
Pirate Cynos.
Basically, every now and again, a Pirate faction cyno will spring up in system, and at it will spawn a Pirate Capital ship (or two) plus a support fleet similar in size to what you expect in missions. Brilliant.
These SHOULD still appear in 0.0, but MORE frequently the higher the security rating (up to .4). In other words, more of these will spawn in low-sec than 0.0, and the higher sec the better. Why? Well for fluff reasons- the Pirates are only going to be warping attack groups into systems with targets worth attacking- they're more likely to launch massive attacks in Empire sovereignty space than the vast empty wildlands of 0.0.
Genius.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:22:00 -
[8]
The big problems with low sec as I see them are:
1) Nothing worth fighting over.
2) Sec penalty too high to justify fighting over anything.
There are exceptions - a couple of low secs are a nice little earner for us because miners pay us to mine there - but this works only because there are stations and these are low-traffic systems. There are also a few low secs with nice moons and a 5/10 drone complex, controlled by another group. But the only nearby stations are in high sec, and targets are spread across too many corps for war decs, which makes logistics near-impossible for an attacking force. Any attacker inevitably loses sec status and either becomes trapped, or must grind it back during the conflict.
Then there are places like low sec Genesis and Aridia, which are a wasteland. Poor spawns, poor complexes, unattractive agents, pathetic ore, etc etc. It pays to be there only if you are a newbie trying out low sec while NPC BCs still pay for your skillbooks, or if you are using it as a blob highway. The blob highway part is one of the reasons much of it cannot be secured and rented out to carebears.
My corp has plenty of experience securing mediocre systems and renting them out. Aridia and Genesis don't cut it. Even in Syndicate, no-one stays long, corp turn-over is high. And we once had to kick out our entire 'alliance' because we attracted a bunch of people with no staying power.
If you really want low sec populated, you are going to give those of us who try to populate them a better product. Put yourself in my position, asking someone to pay 25m per week to mine Jaspet in a 0.3 highway system without agents, and assuring them my friends can keep them safe. It's not going to happen.
The rewards of low sec do not justify the risks, and the PVP restrictions of low sec make effective contests for control impossible for those who wish to enjoy freedom of movement and fly something other than BS.
So it's a lost cause. Low sec sucks, and I say that as one of its salesmen.
Logoffs on Fraps
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Kerushi
Caldari BIG
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:24:00 -
[9]
those cap rats will have to target change every 20-30sec so even the prat gets hammerd if he isn`t kick in his kill and to avoid the 5 remote tanking ships making 1 unkillable tanker
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Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:26:00 -
[10]
rather then CCP doing something about it - would be nice if pirate corps did something about it themself. maybe take on a few carebear corps for a price, and protect them in low sec.
it should provide more fights for the pirate against consentual pvpers, and maybe the carebear will discover that they like the low-sec life.
dunno - it just seem that the reason CCP haven't done 'anything' about it is because they have basically done all they can. if they want sandbox, they can't force people to live in certain way. that is up to US - the pod pilots of EVE to change the map if that is what we really want.
__ Weirda Nosferatu - Time for Change |
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Xendie
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:33:00 -
[11]
move dark ochre into lowsec and make gneiss the 0.0 ore that is in almost every system.
result will be that lots of people will start mining in lowsec and in multiple previously totally worthless 0.0 systems.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
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Rina Shanu
Computer-Aided General Exploitation
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:37:00 -
[12]
I really wish people would start giving low sec a try. After being for a lot of time in low sec, both pirating and carebearing, I know for a fact there is a part of this community living there, having fun, not willingly to change. Yes there are few but there are.
People have POSes in low sec, they research bpos, moon mine. There are lots of people in low sec doing 5/10 and 6/10 complexes.
There are areas of low sec that have intel channels, where peopel scream "wolf" and take evasion action when pirates fly by. True I wished more would fight, but still.
Passing by, ratting a little, running back to empire being chased by a pirate doe not mean you have "experienced" low sec, because that is just a portion of it.
But people never try......
>> JOIN CAGE <<
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Joe
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:38:00 -
[13]
I think if the amount of belts in 0.1-0.4 was increased, an average of say 20-30 belts per system it would promote alot of younger corps and players to populate the systems. I'm sure that many belts would tempt corps to adopting new 'home' systems.
0.1-0.4 should be a normal transitional stage between empire and 0.0 for new players/corps, at the moment i think to many are skipping it, e.g Empire corp grows, developes organised group play, but then thinks its the right time to move out to 0.0/join alliance.
Pe0w |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.01.20 02:46:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 20/01/2007 02:44:29
My standard list of improvements is as follows:
1) Make Hedbergite and Hemorphite common all the way up to 0.3 sec space. Jaspet does not justify the risks, and is not going to pay a couple of PVP pilots to sit in a belt or fancy location for several hours. Also introduce Gneiss as a rare find.
2) Give low sec a fresh sprinkling of high-quality L3 and L4 kill agents, not concentrated in a handful of super-hubs containing 4 to 8, but spread out. The proportion of location agents should be higher than in high sec Empire, to aid with security.
3) Is one of the refineries in M-MD3B still 30% efficient? That always was a perfect example of CCP making stations with good potential worthless. Stop putting crap refineries into low sec.
4) Improve NPC spawns - BCs should be the norm, and give a slight increase to rate. Boost the spawns in neglected 0.0 too (eg Syndicate), to maintain the ISK/hour gap.
5) Complexes need some improvement, 4/10 Serpentis-Phi is a perfect example of something worth doing just once. Also a sprinkling of 5/10 perhaps?
6) Halve sec status penalties. Unpopular, but look at it this way - career pirates will still go outlaw, while more people trying to fight for control of a low sec system don't have to choose between that system and the whole of high sec Empire as a wartime battleground. War decs are not of great assistance when dealing with interlopers.
I may have forgotten a few things - it's late. But you get the idea, low sec loses out badly when compared with the relative safety and ISK/hour of high sec Empire, and Alliance 0.0, which except for brief intervals of collapse now offers the same advantages.
EDIT:
7) Increase number of belts in low sec systems. A system with 15-30 is an easy sell, a system with fewer than that is worthless if all you have is Jaspet.
Logoffs on Fraps
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Daddy's Belt
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.20 03:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
All because they are in empire doesn't mean they are noobs
Except that he SAID they were noobs. I believe him, since his entire problem is that low-sec has nothing but noobs who don't know any better.
I'd say that his alliance expects more from him than complaining about ganking noobs in empire.
Someone's gonna get a buttwhippin'! |
Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.01.20 03:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rina Shanu I really wish people would start giving low sec a try. After being for a lot of time in low sec, both pirating and carebearing, I know for a fact there is a part of this community living there, having fun, not willingly to change. Yes there are few but there are.
People have POSes in low sec, they research bpos, moon mine. There are lots of people in low sec doing 5/10 and 6/10 complexes.
There are areas of low sec that have intel channels, where peopel scream "wolf" and take evasion action when pirates fly by. True I wished more would fight, but still.
Passing by, ratting a little, running back to empire being chased by a pirate doe not mean you have "experienced" low sec, because that is just a portion of it.
But people never try......
I have, and I like 0.0 better. even ec-p8r isn't as bad as low sec.
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Twilight Moon
Minmatar Malicious Intentions Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.20 03:18:00 -
[17]
Easy solution:
1) Remove High sec 2) Ignore the flamefest that ensues 3) Happy ganktastic fun time!
(If you woke up breathing today, CONGRATULATIONS!, you get another chance!) |
Sovy Kurosei
Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.20 03:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy
2) Give low sec a fresh sprinkling of high-quality L3 and L4 kill agents, not concentrated in a handful of super-hubs containing 4 to 8, but spread out. The proportion of location agents should be higher than in high sec Empire, to aid with security.
I have to agree with this. All level four agents and upcoming level five agents should be moved to low security space. It will at least make low security have a unique niche going for it. ___________________
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Komen
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.01.20 04:06:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Komen on 20/01/2007 04:04:09 I find it ironic that someone from LV is complaining that due to a high level of predation, the prey has dwindled and moved on to protected areas where it's much more involved to achieve a kill.
What Lotka Volterra Means
@Patch86 - I think that's a brilliant idea. In another thread I suggested that in order for low-sec to be a draw for the non pew-pew crowd, it would have to have a unique draw, something that neither high-sec nor zero-sec offers. I didn't suggest any specific thing, as I couldn't come up with an idea for anything unique that didn't feel like 'added at a whim' sort of content. Damned if I can remember which thread it was, though. (/me wishes Eve fora had a 'subscribe to thread' feature...)
The idea of NPC faction capship spawns...yes. That smacks of just the sort of thing that would attract team-oriented players/corps to low-sec.
Edit: grammar ___________________________________
Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ |
Corwain
Gallente Infinite Innovations
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Posted - 2007.01.20 04:14:00 -
[20]
Uh...your own alliance proves you wrong as I have seen you guys in low sec quite a bit and killed one of M. Corps Enyo pilots with my 2 week alt in a Vexor while he was belt ratting in Crielere. This is within the past week. I said "gf" and he said "No it wasn't, I wasn't set up for PvP". He came back later in a Thorax but by then an anti-pirate corp had shown up about 5 strong in T2 ships so I stayed in my SS.
I've got lots of kills when I hunt people in lowsec and have killed up to 6-monthers on a 2 week old character. I don't know why you're having so much trouble. My record for one day was 14 kills. Admittedly still kind of low, but I have to choose targets a bit when I'm on such a limited character.
There are lots of people in losec to kill. Keep looking!
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Tokra
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Posted - 2007.01.20 04:49:00 -
[21]
I tell you something Bellum. Guys like you are the reason i dont go to low sec anymore. Everytime i was there i was attacked. When i am going to low sec i dont expect to be targeted and shot everytime and from everyone. Sure, it is a PVP game. But this dont mean its a "kill everything you see" game. It is not PVP when only one is shoting. That is called Player killing.
You said you killed 20 to 30 ships a day in the past. What kind of ships? How experienced where the pilots and how many SP did they have? Its no fun for these that get shot by someone who has 10x the SP. Image you get killed 20 times a day in a fight you cant even win in your dreams. How long would you go on staying there?
There are always two sides.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.01.20 05:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm not going to discuss 0.0 here because that's a whole other ballgame: warp bubbles, huge gate camps, 90% of the space is empty, with the other 10% locked down by alliances etc.
I like low-sec because it doesn't present these major problems for solo and small gang pvp/pirating. But the thing is, there isn't any incentive for players to live/play in lowsec systems. I've been flying between numerous lowsec pockets, looking for targets of any type, just to see what is out there.
What I've experienced is this: 95% of the players I find in local are docked. The other 5% are either at a gate (0km), on a mission (impossible to probe out), or at a deathstar POS mucking about.
I think that in Eve players quickly settle into two major groups: those who end up in deep 0.0/alliance space, and those who stick to empire. The more experienced players don't hang around in lowsec when they can just join a corp/alliance that is already in deep 0.0 space and offers much better rewards in terms of minerals and NPCs. The Empire guys just sit and run missions and avoid traveling into lowsec systems whenever possible.
Belt piracy is pretty much 100% dead at this point in my opinion. I've been cruising through little pockets of low sec systems with multiple characters, checking belts and stuff and I very rarely come across a ship in a belt, and when I do it's some noob player who's too new to know better. There simply isn't any reason for the experienced or semi-experienced (4-6 month players) players to be in a lowsec belt ratting/mining.
I only see mission runners, and those I only see very briefly as they warp off to their mission and then warp back at 0km and instadock. I don't even bother wasting probes on them anymore. With maxed probe strength skills and nearing max probe speed skills, I find about one out of a hundred mission runners I try and probe out. And by the time that I actually scan them down, they've completed the mission and warped back to the station.
This game is becoming increasingly polarized with very little in-between the two extremes. I used to be able to get 20-30 kills a day easily, now I'm lucky if I can find one or two, and that's if I fly all over the place scouring system after system looking for targets. Since the introduction of Revelations it has become increasingly easy to avoid almost any fight. Even bubbles don't really matter anymore- just log off.
Players have so much time between the time that they know they might be in danger of being attacked and having the attacker warp in on them, it's almost impossible to lock them down before they can warp to a safe spot etc.
But getting back to the main point, the real problem is simply a complete lack of population in the belts. Any suggestions?
I'm thinking- bigger rats and better ore in the belts for a start.
So because you dont have any targets in low sec you feel that CCP have to do something to bring you targets?
I dont care really how big rats CCP brings into low sec (unless we start speaking millions each ofcource) I wont set my foot in low sec, unless I have to for a specific reason. And then I go there and leave asap. Its to risky compared to what I can earn. At least for me it is. So untill I eventually join a alliance again, I will be staying in Empire. I dont earn much money there, but I get around. And I have fun. That is what counts for me. I dont find much fun in getting ganked by one of the many gatecamps. So maybe its time for the pirates to start thinking, if they might have themselves to blame - at least partially - that low sec is now getting more and more empty. But self evaluation have never been a popular thing. have it?
Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.20 06:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rina Shanu I really wish people would start giving low sec a try. After being for a lot of time in low sec, both pirating and carebearing, I know for a fact there is a part of this community living there, having fun, not willingly to change. Yes there are few but there are.
People have POSes in low sec, they research bpos, moon mine. There are lots of people in low sec doing 5/10 and 6/10 complexes.
There are areas of low sec that have intel channels, where peopel scream "wolf" and take evasion action when pirates fly by. True I wished more would fight, but still.
Passing by, ratting a little, running back to empire being chased by a pirate doe not mean you have "experienced" low sec, because that is just a portion of it.
But people never try......
Nonsense.
Low-sec has become depopulated. Wasn't long ago there were plenty of people in low-sec. My mission-running alts lived in low-sec for 2 years.
However the risks of low-sec have increased greatly and the rewards have decreased with the continual nerfing of missions. Thus all of those people who used to live in low sec have seen that it's no longer worth it.
Too many pirates, too much risk, decreasing rewards. It's CCP's fault, 100%.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Ice Conch
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Posted - 2007.01.20 06:44:00 -
[24]
500k solo battleship spawns in low sec, bump the bad 0.0 up a little bit, and add some better ores.
Originally by: Fogy
Originally by: James 315 Why do people say hi to Aneu?
Its like the "Where's Waldo" book.. but "waldo" got his forum access removed.. now he keeps changing costumes
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2007.01.20 06:48:00 -
[25]
No amount of rats or ore is going to bring people to low-sec. Why? Because the best varieties are already available in 0.0 and 0.0 is safer by far than low-sec.
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Typhis Deterious
Lonetrek Intergalactic OnliNe Systems
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Posted - 2007.01.20 06:57:00 -
[26]
I think it is quite humorous the way some folks think that everyone else in this game should conform to their way. "I am supposed to have fun but you aren't playing the way I want so this sucks!" You ate all the food on the table and are now hungry. Whoops!
No one wants to be the fish in a barrel for you so you might want to come to terms with it. Low sec = crap risk vs reward and this constant kill-everything-that-moves mentality has flushed your "quarry" to safer areas where they don't have to lose ship after ship and have no fun just so YOU can enjoy yourself. There has to be balance. If you go out and kill 20-30 sad sacks per day (most of them the same folks repeatedly), as you claim, what did you expect would happen?
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Forum Troll
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Posted - 2007.01.20 07:02:00 -
[27]
Yes, something needs to be done. Not only for low sec, but 0.0 as well.
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Erfnam
Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.20 07:11:00 -
[28]
The only way lowsec will become populated is if CONCORD sets up shop. You want lots of targets, head out to 0.0 or start declaring wars.
TCSyn is recruiting |
Joe
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Posted - 2007.01.20 07:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Joe I think if the amount of belts in 0.1-0.4 was increased, an average of say 20-30 belts per system it would promote alot of younger corps and players to populate the systems. I'm sure that many belts would tempt corps to adopting new 'home' systems.
0.1-0.4 should be a normal transitional stage between empire and 0.0 for new players/corps, at the moment i think to many are skipping it, e.g Empire corp grows, developes organised group play, but then thinks its the right time to move out to 0.0/join alliance.
Unfortunately I choose to post legitimate concerns and valid arguments in a thread that was inevitably doomed to be petty pvp v carebear v troll flamefest.
What a waste of time.
Pe0w |
Forum Troll
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Posted - 2007.01.20 07:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Erfnam The only way lowsec will become populated is if CONCORD sets up shop. You want lots of targets, head out to 0.0 or start declaring wars.
Or remove Concord from Empire all together, or at least from areas without any sort of reward. This gets my vote.
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