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Jayson Lee	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:51:00 - [121] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 21/01/2007 19:43:33 Edited by: madaluap on 21/01/2007 19:40:16 Originally by: Jayson Lee Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 21/01/2007 18:42:25 Personally i would prefer a good boost of lowsec and dont touch empire. But the result would be major inflation because the empire people earn allready good money. Making lowsec even more profitable would upset it all. This is why a nerf to empire is needed: - Halve the rewards of npc kills in empire, but dont nerf the 50 k or below vessels that life in 0.5 and higher. - increase reward from npc kills in 0.4-0.0 by 50% - Move all 4/10 plexes out of empire to 0.4 or lower, these complexes will get 50% boost to reward aswell This will mean that shooting a cruiser down in empire gains you 60k and shooting it in lowsec gives you 180k reward. What a lot of people suggested aswell was better ores in lowsec. Everyone needs to realise that increasing rare ore, makes them less rare and less profitable. Zydrine has a very low value, while trit is very expensive atm. Instead of making the rare ores even less rare, why not increase the ammount of ore in a roid 5 in lowsec and make the miningyield 4 (depends on how dangerous the area is...) So instead of making 5 mil an hour mining in empire, you will make 20 mil an hour mining in lowsec for low end minerals... 2 hours mining in lowsec vs 8 hours in empire... RP side: the roids in lowsec have a different structure and have travelled longer through space making them more uber. How about this, instead of nerfing high sec, we nerf pirates. That affects the risk/reward the ration only takes an approach that more people will like. Sound like a good idea? I doubt it, so lets not mess with high sec, and focus on why low sec sucks. Until you find a away to allow corps to make money protecting systems you will not solve the problem. Any increase in rewards for low sec you use to bring in more miners/ratters ect will only bring in more pirates resulting in a system that we have now. Just making the rewards greater wont solve the problem which is too many pirates with no way to stop them. read my other post (after the 1 you quoted). Low sec sucks because you can make far more money in empire and you are saver there. So you can be more lazy. These lazy peeps can have there 10 mil reward in empire, while a good missionrunner yields 30 mil an hour in lowsec... Not like probes are that awesome for getting missionsrunners anyway... more ratters/miners = more people getting ****ed off = more people joining up forces = more solo bs sitting in a belt with a 5 man mine/rat squad around waiting for a pirate to take the bait killing pirates is rather...easy. usually they dont espect resistance, or they are camping a gate in tanked bs. We have allready been killing pirates that camp gates in bs, by sending in a 40k armor apoc and the rest of gang jumps in as soon as the agro starts. Gotten some good bs,command shipsand hac kills from that... Not to mention you can force pirates to fight and they cannot help there gangmates or get sentry upon them.. So you nerf empire then what? They skip low sec and go to 0.0 space. Nerfing high sec wont do what you want it to do. Once more people start going to low sec, pirates will be out maned for awhile, but it wont take long for more pirates to show up. Once that happens you start back at square one. I am all for people banding together to protect systems but you need tools to help.
Gretek Lal Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:54:00 - [122] Originally by: Rina Shanu I really wish people would start giving low sec a try. After being for a lot of time in low sec, both pirating and carebearing, I know for a fact there is a part of this community living there, having fun, not willingly to change. Yes there are few but there are... But people never try...... Why should they? As soon as you jump through the gate into lo-sec you get jumped and podded. I once joined a corp and was not even able to reach their HQ in 0.2 space until several days after I'd joined, because I kept getting podded enroute. I had to get up early on a Saturday morning before I could make it. Then I realized just how stupid I was being. Take my wife to work early and then plop down in front of the computer just so I could travel safely from point A to point B in a computer game? How incredibly silly. This is a game! More people might be willing to take the 'risk' of living in lo-sec and even 0.0 if you could only get your stuff to your new home. One possible answer would be many more gates, many more routes into lo-sec space. But I'm not holding my breath. The game is what it is, and I accept it for what it is. But I am NOT in this game just to give some little twenty-something l33t d00d living with his parents more targets. I am more than happy to stay in Empire and play my way.
Gulldrengurinn	Posted - 2007.01.21 20:29:00 - [123] These kind of threads always make me laugh, some kid complaining why he can¦t kill 30 carebears every day with very little risks to himself. The main problem with low sec is there is NO way of control there, pirates leave and come as they please, dock at stations etc etc, the work that would need to be done to remotely secure an low sec area is insane. CCP has a very fine balance as it is, I dont believe that it is in their interest to force everyone into low sec or nerf highsec more then they have already done. Why risk a good thing? It is a proven fact that big changes like this can ruin games. Just ask yourself, is EVE a good game today? Why make fundimental changes to the core of the game just to see if the results will please a certain group within the game. Low sec is much more riskier then a good controlled 0.0 space in every way. Why? well like I said above, there is no way of securing low sec. As it stands, there are plenty of options for fair pvp, more ganging is not needed in anyway. The factional warfare system might add lots of interesting ideas for low sec, make a system that players can affect sec status of these systems, allow other factions to weaken the sec status of a system and eventually take control of the system etc. Add a point system and so on.
Teinyhr Minmatar United Systems Navy	Posted - 2007.01.21 21:25:00 - [124] Pretty much the only thing keeping me out of low sec, fighting off pirates is the security penalty. If you can clearly see someone is a pirate, in a pirate corp and you have chosen to roleplay as someone who will defend and uphold the law or just dislike pirates for some other reason, you can't shoot them first unless they have like -5 sec standing. I once managed to do the mistake of attacking a rat in low-sec and podding him. Bam. From +1.4 to -0.6 or so. If I get enough low standing, I can't access profitable agents or go through high-sec without Concord or some player popping me out. Whoop de friggin' doo. "Go to 0.0" isn't a viable option as I don't care about the game politics, my corporation doesn't have the access to 0.0, and joining an 0.0 alliance means heaploads of trouble with other alliances and all that in-game political BS (omguh BoB is gonna kill us all!) I honestly don't care one bit. ------------------- Originally by: Smagd Besides, specialization is for insects.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai	Posted - 2007.01.21 22:50:00 - [125] I liked the idea where killing pirates gave an almost non-existent sec hit. It allows the people in low sec the ability to be proactive in defending themselves instead of waiting. Standings should also increase the amount of time it takes you to dock to help alleviate said rats from station tanking and gaining the benefits of the average law abiding pilots. Sec standing should also preclude you from docking. -10's and whatnot should not be allowed to dock in high sec period. ----- results may vary
Nastratu Minmatar Serefon Creatin	Posted - 2007.01.21 22:55:00 - [126] Originally by: Jayson Lee I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I was never discussing what PVP is. I was responding to a gentleman that I assumed wanted a more challenging fight. I read the passage that you quoted and your response. In my opinion, this gentleman was not asking for a challenging "mono v mono" fight. I shall quote him here: "... are more concerned about a good fight or some fun pvp rather than a big wallet". When I read that I translated it as pirates are looking for a good fight or some fun pvp. Does this mean a challenging fight against that 30 mil sp pilot in command ship? No. You see a pretty Retriever blow up on your screen and that is "some fun pvp". Same goes for shuttles, newbies in frigates, anything really that you can make go poof. That is what I was trying to explain to you in my reponse.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.01.21 23:17:00 - [127] - move all empire ice-fields into low sec - have low-sec rats drop very rare items by tiny chances. ( chance-based high-value drops is something thats completly missing in eve. other mmorpgs have 0.01 - 0.05 % chances of dropping very special things.. "attribute-enchanhing cards" for example.
Prime Entity Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.21 23:31:00 - [128] Originally by: Patch86 Edited by: Patch86 on 20/01/2007 02:16:40 I think low-sec needs something.........unique. Empire has safety. Making low-sec more safe will never draw crowds, since those after safety always have Empire. 0.0 has wealth. No matter how much you increase the value of low-sec, it won't make much of a difference as 0.0 will always be more valuable. So what do we give low-sec? Something that it will have that neither 0.0 nor Empire wll have. The obvious answer- Level 5 agents. The fabled uber-hard teamworks-a-must missions, with big tasty rewards (which AREN'T just more money- some unique LP offers could work). This will ensure that any truly dedicated NPCing force really really have a reason to go to low-sec, and not 0.0. But that doesn't really help revive the at-belt / warpable object problem. So what we need to do is add more warpable objects (other than belts) that only low-sec will have. And heres my brilliant idea of the day: Pirate Cynos. Basically, every now and again, a Pirate faction cyno will spring up in system, and at it will spawn a Pirate Capital ship (or two) plus a support fleet similar in size to what you expect in missions. Brilliant. These SHOULD still appear in 0.0, but MORE frequently the higher the security rating (up to .4). In other words, more of these will spawn in low-sec than 0.0, and the higher sec the better. Why? Well for fluff reasons- the Pirates are only going to be warping attack groups into systems with targets worth attacking- they're more likely to launch massive attacks in Empire sovereignty space than the vast empty wildlands of 0.0. Genius. I think what you suggest is a great idea. The idea of a pirate dread/carrier/titan popping up in the middle of a deadspace mission gets me very excited.
Jaaff	Posted - 2007.01.22 00:03:00 - [129] I think you have answerd your question in the second paragraph of your post
Lost Ninja	Posted - 2007.01.22 00:12:00 - [130] If you nerf empire to make low sec attractive all that will happen is that people who need to make lots of ISK will move to 0.0 and join alliances/corps to be safe there. Nerfing high sec won't mean more people will go to low sec. If all the carebears are in 0.0 then the gank squads are still without easy targets. Then they'll want 0.0 nerfed so that people are forced back into low sec. You have to address the basic issue of low sec, at the moment risk != reward unless you want PvP as a reward. For most others low sec is an evil they will avoid if possible. How? No idea... _________________________________________________________

Ben Derindar KelBen Productions	Posted - 2007.01.22 00:27:00 - [131] It's been said in this thread already, and I've said it before myself, and I'll say it again: low-sec as it currently stands is tailor-made for piracy. The sec status loss effectively punishes people who are otherwise prepared to fight back. War decs are not an appropriate solution either, because (a) the changes they bring apply to all space, not just low sec, and (b) anti-pirates should not be forced to cough up to play their way when pirates can get their fill for free. Until positive security players are allowed to shoot negative security players in low-sec without losing sec themselves, low-sec will continue to remain a wasteland of Asian plex farmers, and pirates having nobody to shoot but each other. /Ben How to fix Eve
Maximillian Pele Caldari Jewel Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.22 00:28:00 - [132] Never forget that PvP requires isk. There are lots of people using high sec to generate the isk needed to then go and PvP. People need to be able to sustain loss. If people can't sustain loss then they won't go to places where there is a high chance of loss. Nerf High sec and you slow the ability to recover for anyone who has been of the wrong side of PvP. So instead of increasing the population in low sec, it may well decrease it. In times of doubt I ask myself "What would BoB do?", and then do the opposite.
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.01.22 00:34:00 - [133] The problem is, and always has been, that the highest rewards are in high sec empire (lev4s) and 0.0 (everything else). Putting level 4 missions in safe empire is the reason low sec is as unsafe as it is. Simple. I dont hunt in low sec, I am not a pirate, I dont CARE how many ganks I get. But while lev4s are in highsec, the 'hardcore' carebears will stay there, and they are the only group organised enough to make lowsec safe enough for heavy population. As it stands, anything you can do in lowsec you can do safer in 0.0 or Empire. Therefore lowsec is ONLY for noobs, travellers and pirates.
Mortimer Phinn	Posted - 2007.01.22 02:02:00 - [134] Originally by: Edde Bebbi The problem is, and always has been, that the highest rewards are in high sec empire (lev4s) and 0.0 (everything else). Putting level 4 missions in safe empire is the reason low sec is as unsafe as it is. Simple. I dont hunt in low sec, I am not a pirate, I dont CARE how many ganks I get. But while lev4s are in highsec, the 'hardcore' carebears will stay there, and they are the only group organised enough to make lowsec safe enough for heavy population. As it stands, anything you can do in lowsec you can do safer in 0.0 or Empire. Therefore lowsec is ONLY for noobs, travellers and pirates. See the thing is, I log in for an hour or so after dinner wanting to run some missions, however with your wonderful plan, I get to spend that hour trying to find someone to organize with me so we can spend my valuable in-game time chasing children instead of running my 1-2 missions and logging for the evening. Empire is filled with people like me, paying 15 dollars a month to play the game the way we want, not the way you want.
Adunh Slavy Chaos Faction	Posted - 2007.01.22 02:06:00 - [135] Originally by: Heroldyn - move all empire ice-fields into low sec This will hurt everyone, from empire dwellers to no-sec alliances, many of which have research POSes in high sec. The only people it helps is "pirates" looking for easy barge kills. -AS
Adunh Slavy Chaos Faction	Posted - 2007.01.22 02:08:00 - [136] Originally by: Ben Derindar Until positive security players are allowed to shoot negative security players in low-sec without losing sec themselves, low-sec will continue to remain a wasteland of Asian plex farmers, and pirates having nobody to shoot but each other. /Signed -AS
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.01.22 08:05:00 - [137] well, here's the solution: - have npc's drop implants and hardwires by a 0.01 - 0.05% (maybe more often) chance. The lower the sec, the more valueable the possible "luck drops". this would bring some empire people to low sec, lurking for the "quick money". - give people a security-status gain when they kill people with a negative one. ( the bigger the "gap" between the positive and negative sec-status, the more "gain" ) and also make a high positive sec-status worth something.
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.22 11:36:00 - [138] Sooo.. I just finished reading all five pages of replies to my post (ouch). Let's clear up a few things here: #1: to all the morons chastising me about what I should or shouldn't be doing- F off. That's not what this thread is about. #2: to all the people who imply that I just want 'victims' and easy kills- F off. That's not what this thread is about either. What this thread is about is the destruction of the solo/small gang pirate playing style due to the ease with which players can avoid combat. Contributing to this are things like "warp to 0km", probes being ineffective at locating mission runners, missions/agents providing extremely high ISK/hour in perfectly secure space, etc. etc. Additionally there isn't any reason for players to live/exist in low sec systems. The rewards are trivial and the risk is indeed high. Once players transfer into 0.0 the majority of the time you see large groups of players huddled together in one or two systems, with the other 95% of 0.0 systems remaining extremely unpopulated. When I was getting 20-30 kills a day, they were mostly BSs flown by fairly high SP characters (10-15m SP or more) and I was usually able to catch them at a gate or at the station or what not, even though I had to endure being shot by the gate/station guns. I think that if players with neutral or positive security status were allowed to engage any player with less than 0 security status in low sec without losing security status, and able to pod any player with -5.0 or less security status with no loss of security standing themselves would be a HUGE help in promoting more anti-pirate activity (and therefore more population and more fun PVP in lowsec). I personally find it disgusting that players won't engage in PVP just because they might lose a tenth of a point of security status or something. I think the answer to the problem is a multi-tiered approach: 1. increase lowsec rewards dramatically. 2. decrease highsec rewards by a small amount, especially by putting all of the highest earning activities in lowsec (L4 agents etc.) and spreading out agents and things instead of grouping them in one system/station. 3. change the ROE for shooting players with positive/negative security standing as stated above. 4. remove local and have a constallation chat only, so that both sides arn't instantly notified of an ambush or impending attack. 5. fix probes so that they are finally useable to detect mission runners effectively. Right now mission runners are basically 100% safe from being probed out while on a mission. This is a PVP game. If you're going to be flying in lowsec, you shouldn't be surprised or dismayed if you get attacked there while doing whatever you're doing at the time (missions etc.). Conversely, the rewards should be big enough to justify the risk. Right now the only sensible thing is to jump directly from empire to a 0.0 corporation/alliance and skip lowsec completely. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Teinyhr Minmatar United Systems Navy	Posted - 2007.01.22 12:04:00 - [139] Originally by: Bellum Eternus 5. fix probes so that they are finally useable to detect mission runners effectively. Right now mission runners are basically 100% safe from being probed out while on a mission. WTF? Shall I probe you out and kick you in the head while you're doing some gardening? And actually this hasn't always been like this, the deadspace areas got "probeprotected" because of "rogue salvagers" who probed out other people's mission sites and salvaged the wrecks they left behind - which would have been fine if they would have just asked, most of the time. ------------------- Originally by: Smagd Besides, specialization is for insects.
Mesacc Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.22 12:44:00 - [140] Originally by: Bellum Eternus This is a PVP game. You see, thats where your wrong. This is a game. A game that suports PvP and PvE. Some like PvP only, some like PvE only, some like both. I happen to like both, but like I said earlier in this thread, Untill I can go into lowsec and fight back when I get attacked without it screwing up my standings with my agents, im staying in highsec. The game seems to be made to where once you PvP, you cant do anything else. Change that and I bet you will see alot more people in lowsec.

Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.22 14:20:00 - [141] My opinion, as someone that has practiced both sides. Increase reward will achieve nothing. Problem is with the risk reward equation . Why there are no or almost no pirates in high sec? Because their risk is too high, almost 100%. Why are almsot no vivtims in low sec.. caouse their risk is too high. People should have a mid term where both can do what they want even try to kill others but with lower risk. How? How in hell do you do that? Well some proposals might be made. Juste read this one up to end for example: When someone engages other in low sec. A ship of the sovereignt faction will depart from closest high sec gate (possible variation is deduct a cost form the account of the one being agressed), and steam full speed to there. Arriving there, if the combat is still on it will engage but not SHOOT the hotile, Only Jam him, making the target free. About a minute later it releases the offending party giving him a fee (the reduction in security stats and possibly a fee if his stats are already too low). What this would acomplish? Would be safer to anyone not hunting, but still possible to hunt. And if you are caught hunting you will not be vaporized. Both parts may have enough fun. So if you are jumped you just have to hold on. Fight back and survive for some time and you will likely live, that if you don't sux! Same way pirates must select prays they can kill fast. The result? Pirates wont engage everything on sight and low sec can be slowly repopulated. This also makes long term camps at low sec not likely since patroll ships would pay a visit and keep you jammed and scrambled. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.22 14:26:00 - [142] Originally by: Mortimer Phinn Originally by: Edde Bebbi The problem is, and always has been, that the highest rewards are in high sec empire (lev4s) and 0.0 (everything else). Putting level 4 missions in safe empire is the reason low sec is as unsafe as it is. Simple. I dont hunt in low sec, I am not a pirate, I dont CARE how many ganks I get. But while lev4s are in highsec, the 'hardcore' carebears will stay there, and they are the only group organised enough to make lowsec safe enough for heavy population. As it stands, anything you can do in lowsec you can do safer in 0.0 or Empire. Therefore lowsec is ONLY for noobs, travellers and pirates. See the thing is, I log in for an hour or so after dinner wanting to run some missions, however with your wonderful plan, I get to spend that hour trying to find someone to organize with me so we can spend my valuable in-game time chasing children instead of running my 1-2 missions and logging for the evening. Empire is filled with people like me, paying 15 dollars a month to play the game the way we want, not the way you want. if you only do that, you really don't need the best reward form the level 4 agents do you? You could work very well with only very low grade lvl 4. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Jayson Lee	Posted - 2007.01.22 14:50:00 - [143] Changing the rewards for high and low sec wont solve the problem. All that it will do is increase the population in the short term until more people turn to the life of a pirate, driving the population back down. They way things stand right now you cant make low sec rewarding enough to bring new players in, the risk is still too high. If you nerf high sec to make it less desirable, then people will just skip low sec and move to 0.0 space. Changing the sec hits people get wont help either, simply because some pirates will rat until they have a high sec status, then giving them the free reign to hunt anyone lower than them. The only way to make low sec more attractive is to make it safer. To do this without nerfing pirates, you need to make controlling a system a benefit. Either with approved combat/warning for those in controll, or giving money to those that own the system, preferably by giving the controlling corp a percentage of all business down in that system.
Vladikov Orrico	Posted - 2007.01.22 15:50:00 - [144] Quote: The more experienced players don't hang around in lowsec when they can just join a corp/alliance that is already in deep 0.0 space and offers much better rewards in terms of minerals and NPCs. The Empire guys just sit and run missions and avoid traveling into lowsec systems whenever possible. This is like the hunter wondering why, after camping a game trail for a year, there is less and less game each passing month. The game mechanics are making things too easy to grief. Fine the original OP may be one of those actual people who pvp's without griefing, but most of the time it's not them hunting you down. 0.0 corps offer protection in numbers....high sec offers protection of concord (to some extent). I agree there should be more incentive for low sec play....but you can't have it both ways. Very little incentive is going to get people there if it remains a game trail for the predators.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.01.22 15:54:00 - [145] Nerfing high sec or moving all lev 4 missions into low sec will not help you anywhere. If you nerf high sec and I dont have anything to do there in reasonably stress free enviroment then I will just swallow my medicine and go to 0.0. Nerfing high sec will not give me any reason whatever to move into low sec so it's not a solution. It's not like a player who can run level 4 missions would not survive in 0.0 in more profitable way. And solo players would just quit ofcource.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.22 15:55:00 - [146] Originally by: Vladikov Orrico Quote: The more experienced players don't hang around in lowsec when they can just join a corp/alliance that is already in deep 0.0 space and offers much better rewards in terms of minerals and NPCs. The Empire guys just sit and run missions and avoid traveling into lowsec systems whenever possible. This is like the hunter wondering why, after camping a game trail for a year, there is less and less game each passing month. The game mechanics are making things too easy to grief. Fine the original OP may be one of those actual people who pvp's without griefing, but most of the time it's not them hunting you down. 0.0 corps offer protection in numbers....high sec offers protection of concord (to some extent). I agree there should be more incentive for low sec play....but you can't have it both ways. Very little incentive is going to get people there if it remains a game trail for the predators. I must say.. you have no clue... The 99% of PVPers are not there for griefign.. they do not care for you or your opinion. Even Ginger MAgician is not a griefer (although he is a pain in the 1#!#!@#!@). Most are there for the excitment of the hunt. Because it is addicting, since its part of human nature. Griefign would be someone in a BS jump in scramble or cruiser and sit there.. not killing you neither leting you go.... If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Blindscythe	Posted - 2007.01.22 16:06:00 - [147] Don't know if this has been mentioned, or whether its a viable option, but what about increasing the amount of anti-pirates/bounty hunters by adding a mission incentive of sorts? As your security status drops, you immediately receive a bounty (based on sec. status x whatever cost) from an NPC corp, which can be claimed by a bounty hunter via kill and return to the NPC agent? Just throwing that in there. May help to clean out a few nasties and allow a greater flexibility for previously classed as 'prey'
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.01.22 16:10:00 - [148] Best solution allow the Empire players free access to low sec for one month. That is No attacking them, no scamming, ripping them off, any of that. Let them get engulfed with the region, then come back. Of course the above was just another solution, to a problem that CCP/You/me/us, cannot fix. And its going to go the same place all the other "My solution to fix low-sec" threads have gone.... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Mortimer Phinn	Posted - 2007.01.22 16:22:00 - [149] I love the OP, he kills 30 ships a day and then wonders why nobody comes to low sec anymore. Looking at this over a period of a week, you get 210 victims vs. 1 pirate. Maybe the easy solution is to get rid of the 1 guy making the game miserable for 210?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.22 16:24:00 - [150] Well I am happy with 4 kills per day :) If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!



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