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Freedom Fighter assassinated by the Republic

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Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.02.03 20:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Sapphrine I think i've made it fairly clear. Midular's actions exceeded her role as a head of state. Assassinating your people even if they are ones you brand as traitors might well be the barbarism of the Amarr but is not at the core of the Minmatar. I am angry at Midular for betraying the Republic. The Republic is meant to represent the people and the people do not wish to see their brethren enslaved. There may well have been a case long ago for not waging a war to free the rest of the Minmatar people from the Amarrian because we would not have one at the time.... that is not longer the case. Midular is a coward who would rather live with the power she already holds and not ACT to SAVE the rest of the people. The republic is known among my tribe for killing our people. Republic agents send pilots on missions all the time to exterminate thukker blood. The Republic has no care for Matari, they only care for "thos matari within the republic" as is well evident by the actions taken thus far. As soon as people start to realize the republic does not stand for ALL matari people we will all be better off as we can start to reconcile what needs to be reconciled and put the Amarr in thier place. Please people, open your eyes, the Republic is not a function for Matari people, it is only a function for Republicans. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 21:46:00 - [92] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 03/02/2007 21:53:37 The Republic indeed does not speak for or act for the Thukker, but that is a Thukker choice, not the Republic's. Your tribe decided to stay out, as did the Nefantar (if for different reason...) And no, true loyalists have no problems with Matari living outside of the Republic. By all means. Go, leave, fight your own petty wars and call doom on yourselves. But do not betray your oaths to us, do not steal our property, and do not threaten us in the process. And do not come crying back home when the world treats you badly. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Butcher el'Hek	Posted - 2007.02.03 22:05:00 - [93] Home! I will return home when there is a society present that does not sit back whilst there is a cure for the Vitoc method within reach. I will return home when there is honorable leadership in place rather than a cold blooded murderering *****. Butcher.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 22:14:00 - [94] Originally by: Butcher el'Hek I will return home when there is honorable leadership in place rather than a cold blooded murderering *****. I have no quarrel whatsoever with that. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.02.03 22:19:00 - [95] Edited by: Popsikle on 03/02/2007 22:16:05 Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 03/02/2007 21:53:37 The Republic indeed does not speak for or act for the Thukker, but that is a Thukker choice, not the Republic's. Your tribe decided to stay out, as did the Nefantar (if for different reason...) Its the same old argument else, and I should know better then to provoke you here, as I have done hundreds of times in the past, but im going to anyway... Yes, it is our tribes choice that we get shot by pilots running missions for Republic Agents. I fully admit it, we pay them to shoot our Kin...... * rolls her eyes The Republic is actively seeking out and destroying Thukker blood. The Republic is inactive in saving the blood of ALL TRIBES that are enslaved. The Republic obviously has no cares about a huge portion of Matari be it Thukker or Enslaved because it can watch/order thier blood spilled. The Republic does not stand for Matari, it stands for itself only, a political entity . Not the will or life of the Matari. That is all I will say on this subject, and you may respond but I will not argue with you about this any longer, on this medium anyway. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 22:52:00 - [96] Yea yea and the Thukker are doing the same for Republic people. Neither of us likes the situation, and we both know all the arguments... Let's just pretend we did it once more already, and drop it here? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Sapphrine Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 01:41:00 - [97] Elsebeth, somewhere in this dialogue I recall requests that an investigation of Midular's activity take place. Who would you have run such an investigation given Midular's position and the suspected corruption and cronyism? Who do you feel has the power to run such an investigation?
Shira d'Radonis Amarr Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.04 01:57:00 - [98] The Republic is only capable of doing so much... the government can provide for the people who live under it, or it can take a huge risk and make war to save those who are not living under it. Even if the Republic forces were strong enough to succeed in that goal, the lives of the people in the Republic would suffer from the strain of supporting a massive war effort. So who is the Republic to defend? Those they can definitely protect or those who they might be able to save? Should they risk the lives of the countless numbers of people within their borders in order to try to save those still in slavery? Is the risk worth the cost of failure? The chance of success is too small. More likely some or even all of the Republic will just come under Amarrian occupation again, and if not that, it will be a stalemate in which millions will suffer and die. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.02.04 02:43:00 - [99] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis The Republic is only capable of doing so much... the government can provide for the people who live under it, or it can take a huge risk and make war to save those who are not living under it. Even if the Republic forces were strong enough to succeed in that goal, the lives of the people in the Republic would suffer from the strain of supporting a massive war effort. So who is the Republic to defend? Those they can definitely protect or those who they might be able to save? Should they risk the lives of the countless numbers of people within their borders in order to try to save those still in slavery? Is the risk worth the cost of failure? The chance of success is too small. More likely some or even all of the Republic will just come under Amarrian occupation again, and if not that, it will be a stalemate in which millions will suffer and die. So what interest would the republic have to seek out and murder the one who is taking the risk for them? How does that serve/protect any Matari people? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 05:51:00 - [100] "When evil is allowed to exercise its influence unchecked, good people, with the potential to do great things, will fall into the valley of shadow from whence there is no returning. Acts of cowardice, perpetrated by wardens of such evil, are to be condemned now as ever." These are the words of Prime Minister Karin Midular. She made this statement after the targeted killing of Emperor Doriam II. A strike at the slavers that they are still yet to recover from. It is sadly ironic that the leader of the Republic should feel so strongly about one dead slaver yet not hesitate to have a hero of the Matari people slain in cold blood. Karishal was a good man. He did great things and in time could well have been the saviour of our people that we have so long hoped for. It was his trust in Republican honour that let him into that valley of shadows where their assassins fell upon him. An act of cowardice perpetuated by agents of a corrupt leadership. This leadership must stand down. For the good of the Republic, for the good of the tribes and for the future of the Matari people. If you wish to see our people free rise now. If you wish to see the Republic made strong then raise your voices now and call for elections. If you want to see an end to the slaver raids then darken the skies of Pator with ships and demand action from your leaders. You have 19 days in which to act. If you are content to live in a weak Republic. If you are happy to wait quietly in line for your glaive collars to be fitted. If you wish only to appease the slavers. Do nothing. I urge you Brothers and Sisters to rise now. Take action now. Let the Children of Matar raise their voices as one and shake the very stars with our roar. >> RECRUITING <<
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 10:36:00 - [101] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 10:41:04 Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Aodha Khan If you decided that your council was not acting the way you wanted it to and you stole from them before leaving. I'm have no doubt the U'K council would put you on KOS. That is where you are wrong. Clearly your time as a blood drinker and pirate bring everything back to isk. The means were justified by the ends. All you care about is stolen property and isk. It is a shame, I remember when you used to be a Matari who cared about something more than possessions. Clearly, your time away from Matari space you have forgotten tribal customs and culture. This is nothing to do with ISK and everything to do with honour and tribal values where stealing and murder are *not* honourable acts. As an ex-council member of Ushra'Khan knowing that Ushra'Khan members will gladly steal from their own kind if they dislike their councils decisions fill me with great sadness. Stealing from and murdering your own kin are not acceptable. Your arguments in favour of this will not change that fact, there is no compromise. I back the call from Telemicus for elections to take place so our people may have a voice. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 10:57:00 - [102] Originally by: Sapphrine I think i've made it fairly clear. Midular's actions exceeded her role as a head of state. Assassinating your people even if they are ones you brand as traitors might well be the barbarism of the Amarr but is not at the core of the Minmatar. And it's ok for the Ushra'Khan to call for the same? Oh, the hypocrisy. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 10:59:00 - [103] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 11:02:43 Originally by: Sapphrine Elsebeth, somewhere in this dialogue I recall requests that an investigation of Midular's activity take place. Who would you have run such an investigation given Midular's position and the suspected corruption and cronyism? Who do you feel has the power to run such an investigation? It is hardly my place to say, but since you ask, I guess I can speculate some. ;) If there is to be an investigation specifically on the (possible) death of Karishal Muritor, it seems to me that firstly we'd need clarification from the Fleet as to where this order came from, why they chose to carry it out, and most importantly, their understanding on the clone situation of Muritor's. You scream for Midular's blood here, but the recordings I have seen speak of orders from the Fleet command, not from the prime minister herself. To start the investigation from her doings sounds a bit premature at this point. I would prefer a public statement on the operation from the Fleet before going any further with the aftermath of Karishal's death. () For a general investigation board on alleged corruption of the government, if one is needed, I would gather one from the elders of the four tribes. The prime minister herself naturally being unable to sit on such a board, as the representatives of the Sebiestor Tribe I would suggest maybe the IntSec Commander Surefgen Dalanard or the Legal Principal Clerk Ewlang Eode, though of course that would absolutely not be my call and I am sure there are many tribe members capable of such work the names of whom I do not even know. I am afraid I do not consider myself knowledgable enough to even start suggesting representatives of other tribes. () I would also like to add that for such a board to do its work, hostilities by members of the four tribes against the Republic and its current assigned leader would have to be brought down. No such investigation can reliably take place under circumstances of civil war. () Mind you, I am not personally one hundred percent sure there is anything to investigate. Karishal Muritor was a traitor and a thief to the Fleet, and they took him down. Apart from the political implications - stemming from the fact that it was the bloody Fleet and a hero of the people and not just any pilot corporation and a random corp thief - it seems like a clear-cut case for me, and business as usual among pod pilots. A public statement from Admiral Filmir and/or the Fleet Command would help in assessing the case, of course. (**) http://www.eve-online.com/corporations/c_1000046.asp -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Popsikle So what interest would the republic have to seek out and murder the one who is taking the risk for them? There is clearly no evidence that Muritor was murdered at this point. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:07:00 - [105] Originally by: Aodha Khan Originally by: Popsikle So what interest would the republic have to seek out and murder the one who is taking the risk for them? There is clearly no evidence that Muritor was murdered at this point. Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register. No, no evidence at all. Did the Amarr tell you to say that or did you have some sort of cloning malfunction? >> RECRUITING <<
Mebrithiel Ju'wien Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:20:00 - [106] This is what happens when governments elect leaders who are not worthy of the power. The Republic must act soon if its pyramid is not to come crashing down under the weight of the decaying pinacle. My condolences to the rebel's family and coleagues. "But here is the smell of the blood still and all the perfumes of Khanid will not sweeten this little rose"
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:28:00 - [107] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. There's numerous eye-witnesses to my deaths and 14 bodies, the locations of which I have no clue of. I am still alive, thank you very much. [qutoe]Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register. Expecting the Fleet to keep him active in the current situation is a bit steep, too. Quote: No, no evidence at all. Some reason to suspect he might be dead, yes. Some reason to assume he is as good as dead as in he will never fly with any of us again, yes. Evidence for actual permanent death - no. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:38:00 - [108] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:36:51 Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:35:46 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register. All if which do not prove he is dead. Funny enough, I destroyed the pod of one of the Nefantar who has been flying around Matari space the last weeks. I even have his body at our HQ and he came back the next day in a new clone. Based on your twisted logic he should be dead. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Butcher el'Hek	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:48:00 - [109] Edited by: Butcher el''Hek on 04/02/2007 11:45:33 He is dead, just like the good Dr's wife your fiends sucked the blood from. Gone forever.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:09:00 - [110] Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:39:38 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register. All if which do not prove he is dead. Funny enough, I destroyed the pod of one of the Ammatar who has been flying around Matari space attacking innocent Matari the last weeks. I even have his body at our HQ and he came back the next day in a new clone. Based on your twisted logic he should be dead. We know karishal refused the use of our cloning facilities. I have no reason to believe he ever set foot inside a pod. I'm not sure he was even trained for them. A conventional escape pod and a Jovian pod are vastly different things. You understand of course that without the Jovian pod interface the mind scan required for cloning is not possible. As for the pilot registry showing him as dead. Those records are kept by Concord, not the Republic Fleet. This is not an exercise of logic. Karishal Muritor is dead. You Republicans are as bad as the Amarr. You would argue that stars are cold. >> RECRUITING <<
Padaxes Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:14:00 - [111] Edited by: Padaxes on 04/02/2007 12:11:13 Thrace beat me to it.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:19:00 - [112] Personally I find calling Aodha Khan a Republican hilarious. Not that I'd object to him being one, but I am not sure he finds it the compliment that I do. I, for one, do not argue that Karishal Muritor is not dead. I just say that based on the evidence, there is a possibility he is not - but I'd also like to point out that whether or not he is is not really relevant to the matters at hand. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:20:00 - [113] All this picking at little strands and minute details from the pro-republic side makes me sick. So this is what it comes to? Elsebeth, you have the logs and it is clear as day from them alone that he was killed and not expected to return in clone form. There is more logic to argue against him having a clone than not and still you and yours insist on persuing this spin angle. Simply because you cannot admit that this was execution by design, disguised as an arrest attempt by one of Muritors trusted friends who has shown himself to have as much honour as a Nefantar pick pocket. Ahoda, you of all people should not be condeming people as traitors and decreeing what they do and don't deserve or what is and is not right. You are lucky that you have been let back into the fold by people like NTMZ after the kinds of people you have consorted with over the last year or so. Pirates and Blood Raiders. Honourless dogs and blood drinking delusionals who are as bad as slavers. Don't even presume to think you can stand in judgment over anyone else here when you yourself have been given a chance to make another start in Matari society. All of you that see this as a good thing, or at the very least something that should be defended when taking everything into account, sicken me to the pit of my stomach. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:34:00 - [114] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 12:32:49 Originally by: Darius Shakor Simply because you cannot admit that this was execution by design, disguised as an arrest attempt by one of Muritors trusted friends who has shown himself to have as much honour as a Nefantar pick pocket. How I read the recordings that I have is Filmir and Muritor tried to persuade each other to come peacably to the others' side, and when that failed, Filmir executed an order by Fleet command to fire. They both seem to have assumed they will not meet again after that. Execution by design is a bit exaggerated, but my estimate based on current events is that YES, the Fleet, including Admiral Filmir, moved in an effort to arrest Karishal Muritor and fully prepared to destroy him if - or when - he refuses. There possibly was a trap involved - Karishal Muritor seems to have trusted Admiral Filmir not to fire - but I have seen no evidence for an actual lie by Filmir to Muritor. We all lay traps in our daily battles... I would like to read the Fleet's statement on the matter, of course, but since we do not have that, that is the truth I see and work from. I have no trouble admitting that. I fully believe the Fleet had the right to execute Karishal Muritor after his treason and after he had repeatedly refused a trial. Whether I agree on the method and the timing I am not so sure about, but I lack information that the Fleet has about the reasoning behind it, so I will not start to act as a judge. Now, as to what prompted Muritor's treason in the first place, that is a good question. If the Fleet's own officers are ready for such extremes, it is obvious something is failing. Maybe it is merely that the government assumes its officers and pilots are cleverer than they are and can understand the wider political pictures without explanations - but even such an assumption is a mistake where it is so obviously false. A good question, but again one not relevant to the matters at hand. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Tar Kovsky Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:06:00 - [115] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon There possibly was a trap involved - Karishal Muritor seems to have trusted Admiral Filmir not to fire - but I have seen no evidence for an actual lie by Filmir to Muritor. They had agreed to meet alone in relatively neutral space. Muritor abided by this agreement, Filmir did not. This is blatantly dishonorable behavior on the part of the Admiral, for which I have no respect even if he was "just following orders".
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:18:00 - [116] Originally by: Tar Kovsky Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon There possibly was a trap involved - Karishal Muritor seems to have trusted Admiral Filmir not to fire - but I have seen no evidence for an actual lie by Filmir to Muritor. They had agreed to meet alone in relatively neutral space. Muritor abided by this agreement, Filmir did not. This is blatantly dishonorable behavior on the part of the Admiral, for which I have no respect even if he was "just following orders". Some people feel all traps are dishonorable, some people feel you can betray your word on a 1-on-1 if it serves the purpose. I am somewhere in the middle ground, myself. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:15:00 - [117] Yes we have seen how you like to sit on the fence, perched like some bird of prey. One of these days you might have to pick a side though. Until then I do hope that the Amarr don't decide to knock that fence out from under your claw-like feet. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:19:00 - [118] Oh, rest assured, Darius Shakor, I have picked my side long ago, and I will hold to my oaths till death. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Haceldema Minmatar Uberfiend Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:46:00 - [119] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:39:38 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register. All if which do not prove he is dead. Funny enough, I destroyed the pod of one of the Ammatar who has been flying around Matari space attacking innocent Matari the last weeks. I even have his body at our HQ and he came back the next day in a new clone. Based on your twisted logic he should be dead. We know karishal refused the use of our cloning facilities. I have no reason to believe he ever set foot inside a pod. I'm not sure he was even trained for them. A conventional escape pod and a Jovian pod are vastly different things. You understand of course that without the Jovian pod interface the mind scan required for cloning is not possible. As for the pilot registry showing him as dead. Those records are kept by Concord, not the Republic Fleet. This is not an exercise of logic. Karishal Muritor is dead. You Republicans are as bad as the Amarr. You would argue that stars are cold. Originally by: Tart Kovsky Originally by: Telemicus Thrace To the best of our knowledge Karishal had no clone or for reasons unknown it failed to activate. Unity Station management asked the Captain several times to move his clone to 9UY4-H, but he demurred, saying that the people to whom his clone were currently entrusted were of unimpeachable integrity. Did the captain himself not say to Ushra'Khan that his clone is safe? Something smells here and i'm still not sure what....
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:56:00 - [120] I see Midular has instructed her regieme enforcers Namtz'aar k'in to discredit Muritor where possible. It is interesting to see who the real enemies are here. The ones nitpicking over transcripts and sullying the honour of others who actually had a spine strong enough to stand for their people, or Namtz'aar k'in who stand for their wallets. The Republic is truely sending their finest assassins after us.

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