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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 10:29:00 -
[1]
Today is a dark day for freedom. Today a great warrior and leader has died. Karishal Muritor, former Republic Captain, Freedom Fighter & leader of The Defiants has been slain. The hero of the Battle of Tears was not killed in combat or at the hands of the slavers. He was assassinated by one of his former fleet officers Kanth Filmir at a secret meeting under a banner of truce. To the best of our knowledge Karishal had no clone or for reasons unknown it failed to activate.
Captain Filmir, I forgive you. As you said, you were following orders. You are just a soldier. You have a heart and a mind of your own but they belong to another. Once upon a time I might have admired your loyalty and discipline. A soldier must follow his commander, you are just a weapon, a tool in his hands. If your were a warrior then you would have been free to judge for yourself whether tricking a man like Karishal into your ambush was right or honourable. If it were not for Karishal's direct order to our forces not to fire upon our "brothers" know that you would have joined him in death. That is twice I know of that the old man saved your life, how you repay your debt to him now he is dead by your hand is a question only you can answer.
The Republic fears a coming war with the Amarr. We have heard the arguments time and again. "They are too strong, we are too weak, we must protect what we have, sacrifices must be made for the greater good".
If a wolf steals into your camp in the dead of night to take your children one by one what do you do? The Republic would say let the wolf take a child tonight as long as it spares the others. After all, we live in the heart of the camp, it will not take our children first and we must protect them. But, say those living on the edge of the camp, our children our precious to us. We will not let this wolf pick them off night after night, we will go out to the wilds and slay this wolf.
Those in the heart of the camp are fearful, but you might anger the wolves and may more will come they say, we cannot allow this, if you leave do not come back. So those on the edge of the camp leave the fireside as exiles to go into the darkness to slay the wolf. They find many caves with many young wolves growing ready for the hunt. They slay the biggest and most dangerous of the pack and in the morning a lone warrior returns to the camp with the head of the wolf and a warning of what they have found. Those from the heart of the camp are again fearful, we must appease the wolves they say so they slay the warrior where he stands. The wolves of course still grow, still hunt and although the edge of the camp grows smaller there are always some ready to be sacrificed to save those in the heart of the camp. At least for tonight.
All the words have been said. Only a fool cannot see that this war began with the reclaiming and has never ended. I will not stand by while the Amarr raid our colonies and take us piece by piece. I will not be ruled by fear to the point I will not take up arms against the slavers. No more talk.
To the Republic Parliament. To the one who gave the order to kill a hero of our people in cold blood to appease the slavers. Do you have the courage to stand before us here and explain this act? Do you have the courage to let your name be known as the coward who ordered this assassination? Or do you fear it will cost you precious votes? ...
>> RECRUITING << |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 10:29:00 -
[2]
... To the citizens of the Republic. Are these the leaders you want? Is this how you want to be represented? They kill their own to save their own necks. They seek to please the Amarr so that they will be taken last. They turn a blind eye to the slaver raids on the border daily and they do it in your name. If this is truly what you wish for our people then I say you are no better than the Ammatar but I pray to the ancestors that this is not so. You believe in democracy? you believe in the representation of the tribes? Then call for an election immediately! Take to the streets, fill the skies over Matar with your ships, petition your elders for a motion of no confidence in Midular. Let us see the manner in which our brothers wish to be represented and let us see it now. You have three weeks to convince us that Matari blood has not become thin in the homeland.
The time has come for strong leaders, for warriors. The age of politicians and their assassins must come to an end before it kills the very spirit of our people. Those of you ready to fight these slavers know where to find us. Those of you who would rather sacrifice your own kith and kin than fight are the enemies of freedom and will never know peace. Show us now that the Republic is not as weak and as afraid as it's leaders.
It is time for action, it is time to bring our people home, it is time to rise.
>> RECRUITING << |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.02 10:45:00 -
[3]
It looks as though the Republic is prepared to make sacrifices in the name of peace after all.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Lowanaera
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.02.02 10:49:00 -
[4]
I am impressed, perhaps the Republic is not wholly without justice and order after all. Predictably, Ushra'Khan cannot see the true meaning of this event and continues down its path to destruction and damnation.
Some of your Matari brethren have seen the light of truth, even if they still operate under the banner of the corrupt Republic. It is not too late for any of you. Go to the Mandate or Empire, surrender yourself, and learn the purification of enlightenment through Him.
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Ugleb
Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:06:00 -
[5]
Ugleb appears haggard, eyes red and bleary, words slurred.
Brother Thrace speaks wiser words than I can manage at this time, I see only treachery and murder. I see only a dead hero of Matar, hero of the people. This is an atrocity, such a great man killed under a flag of truce by his own... I can't accept it.
And the Amarr speak of sacrifice, of justice. This was no justice.
Perhaps it is fortunate that I was not there, had I been there with Admiral Filmir only one of us would have left Auga alive. I would have torn the muderers apart with my bare hands for what they did.
A hero of Matar is fallen, I will remember him and honour his name as I do Hnolku. Their loss lessens us.
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Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:10:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Darius Shakor on 02/02/2007 11:07:08 We see the real truth all to well Khanid. Not the twisted truth that the Republic or your ilk would serve us. The Republic is indeed willing to make sacrifices... this is the whole problem. They are making these all the time to stay in the good books of the Amarr. I ask the Republic what the Amarr have sacrificed that is as permenant as this? Or as lasting as the ban on displaying the Khumaak at official gatherings with Amarr dignitaries?
One sacrifice after another to a people that take our own for their deamon God's will and we have asked what in returnn? Midular, you are a fool and a coward of the highest order. You do not deserve your mark or the place it has granted you in society as our so called leader. If you had any honour left in you, you would stand down for having signed off on that order along with Admiral Filmir and accept the shame that is on your heads for your fleet assassinating one of our own, however justified you feel it might be. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:16:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 11:13:21 Before answering Thrace's questions as the citizen of the Republic they are aimed for, I would like to ask for any further information, proof, recording, comm logs, whatever anyone has that will help to assess the situation.
Before I have a full picture, all I say is I have come to know Admiral Filmir as a noble man, and I believe whataever his involvement in this, he is acting out of loyalty to his nation, with a better understanding of the situation I have. The Republic must come first, always, and sometimes harsh measures are called for. The path Muritor was taking was a dark one and could have lead to the destruction of all. If this story is true, and the measures taken were necessary given the information he and his superiors had, the only blame I can put on him was doing it in front of those who would betray him by going public with what should have been kept in the shadows.
If you feel you cannot publically submit evidence that you have, bring it to myself in private. I promise you complete confidence as to what my sources are in case you contact me privately. I will, if I feel it necessary after viewing the information, publish my opinion and my understanding about the events, but I will not publish where that understanding came from.
Those who know me know I do not betray my word.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Assistant XO
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
If this is truly what you wish for our people then I say you are no better than the Ammatar but I pray to the ancestors that this is not so.
You can't imply that any of the ill-begotten 'tribes' ever were near matching our superiority. The crime of 23216 collectively hangs like a millstone round all their necks. Guilt is bringing them closer to the light. Such is justice.
I pray for any possible extension of the eternal damnation our slain foe is condemned to.
Delictum 23216 Official forums |
Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:24:00 -
[9]
My respects to the deceased. ----------------------------------------------
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Ugleb
Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon The path Muritor was taking was a dark one and could have lead to the destruction of all. If this story is true, and the measures taken were necessary given the information he and his superiors had, the only blame I can put on him was doing it in front of those who would betray him by going public with what should have been kept in the shadows.
Ugleb appears again, dishevelled and head held in tembling hands.
You would have concealed the truth? A patriot is murdered by his own and you would hide it? This man gave his life in service to his people and was killed for, for what? Political expediency? No, the people will hear, they will all hear of this.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:37:00 -
[11]
Ugleb, I do not take any joy in these happenings, if it turns out they are true. Muritor was my hero too, though I disagreed strongly with his latest actions.
But if a situation is such that you need to resort to assasination - and make no mistake, if it was necessary, for the safety and freedom of my Republic I would do that, or take any other action necessary - you need to follow-through and do it properly. The more extreme an action, the more carefully you need to think before taking it, and the more careful you need to be it does not cause more harm than good.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Masim
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:49:00 -
[12]
Muritor ceased being a patriot the day he acted against the Republic. He is a hero for what he did before that day. But he is also a traitor, both of the Republic and the people it presents. He showed us all that even heroes can fall and become traitors.
Now, where is the proof on Muritor's death or any Republic involvement in it?
---
Masim Rhiannon Personnel Manager Gradient
Help us defend the Republic, join Gradient today |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:56:00 -
[13]
Witness the folly of turning into the very thing your people fought and died fighting against.
The day the Minmatar formed the Republic was the day they made the same mistakes as the Caldari when they left the Federation.
You are not free as long as the few control the actions of the many.
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Karn Mithralia
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:04:00 -
[14]
Karn throws a glass across the room narrowly missing Marcias head, it explodes against a bulkhead
Fools!
Do you doubt Thraces words?
The Captain was killed in cold blood, defences offline, his body left to float in space.
If you can't trust the word of brother, if the endless scheming of the politicians has loosened your grasp on the meaning of honor, then seek evidence in private. This is not something for the drooling masses to pick apart.
Karishal is dead, murdered in cold blood.
A new day dawns and a tempest brews in the east.
Karn slaps the transmit key and swears under his breath as he cuts comms -----------------------------------------
Now recruiting. |
Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:06:00 -
[15]
Good riddance.
Now recruiting!
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Patamon
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:09:00 -
[16]
I do not know the details of this incident so I am not sure how much I can comment. I can say that if the person in question was violating Republic law and was warned to stop and did not then no matter his "good" deads a punishment was needed. We have to many that are out for blood against the Amarr without any real direction to their anger. We need to turn our energies inward for now, build out people up and provide our people security so the Amarr may never return to enslave us again.
Our Republic is not perfect but you cannot fix it by being outside of it yelling at windmills. You need to work within it and make it what you want it to be.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:23:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 12:20:33 Karn, if you imply we should accept the words of any one person on a matter as grave as this without asking for proof or details, you are indeed a fool.
I did not say I doubt Thrace's word. If you must insist knowing, personally, right now, if I had to take a bet I would put my money on his account of the incident to be true, if possibly incomplete. That has nothing to do with anything, though - I have been wrong about Telemicus Thrace before. In a matter like this, we need the hard evidence reviewed by all political factions. Had it been me bringing such facts to public, I would submit the same.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:41:00 -
[18]
Government is the art of compromise. This would appear to be an art the politicians of the Republic have mastered indeed. A sad day for all those who fight in liberty's name.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
DutchGunner
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:06:00 -
[19]
Wise words Telemicus, wise words indeed.
Me and my brothers and sisters morn over the loss of Karishal Muritor. However I to do not blaim the people that executed their orders.
I have seen the logs from a connection i have in Auga. It indeed started friendly and it was obvious Kanth Filmir did not want to take this action. He tried as hard as possible to avoid this outcome.
I also do not blaim the Republic or it leaders. It is obvious for me the real reason are the amarr that keeps holding every minmatar responsible for the actions of only a few.
Karishal Muritor made it clear what we can do as we put aside our differences and fight as a single tribe. Some amarr have become frightened by this and use political pressure to end any threats to them.
I would have joined him and fought under his banner if the time and call came. Unfortunately I am tied to my current Corperation and Alliance as they looked after me in my time of need and that too is something that must be respected and repaid in full.
If all minmatar, including capsuleers, came together and fougth as one, we still face horrible options. If we fight against the amarr our brothers and sisters in their empire will pay the price.
It is a vicious circle and some amarr will make sure they can keep us under control by using these horrible methods.
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Shi'ra Kull
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:16:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Shi''ra Kull on 02/02/2007 13:12:18
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Padaxes
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:49:00 -
[21]
I watched in Horror as Admiral Filmir approached Karishal extending the hand of friendship, using Muritors deep trust of him to get close before sinking in the knife.
Filmir may once have been an honorable man but he owed his life to the Defiant!
We speak the truth Elsebeth, dont doubt it for a second. The rot eating away at the Republic has been exposed.
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Tar Kovsky
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:57:00 -
[22]
Finally, Midular reveals her true, treacherous face. I ask the Republic Fleet to think hard about what they might be told to do next. If this woman can order you to strike down a former comrade under a flag of truce, what else will she require of you?
This is a person without honor or shame. She seeks only to increase her personal power and wealth, and will strike down any whom she sees as a threat to that.
Soon, people will say that the "Ray of Matar" is a laser.
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Tart Kovsky
Khumatari Holdings Administration
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace To the best of our knowledge Karishal had no clone or for reasons unknown it failed to activate.
Unity Station management asked the Captain several times to move his clone to 9UY4-H, but he demurred, saying that the people to whom his clone were currently entrusted were of unimpeachable integrity.
Another instance of misplaced trust, and a warning to capsuleers that the States may have more power over your future than you might think.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:03:00 -
[24]
The rot eating the Republic was revealed when Muritor turned traitor, and took others with him.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Forty Three
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:05:00 -
[25]
*Forty Three's face appears in the comlink, tear streaming down from his glasses. His voice is shaking, not from insecurity, but from rage, and he can barely control his movements*
I can't believe it... simply can't believe it... I have feared the day where our own people would succumb to such atrocities... Karishal Muritor... he was not killed, he did not die in battle... he was murdered... MURDERED!!! he stood there, with his defenses down, his modules inactive, while his 'friend' MURDERED HIM IN COLD BLOOD!!!
*Forty Three stops to regain control, wipes his cheeks with his sleeve*
Midular... you make me want to throw up... and the republicans... they have... the GUILE to call Admiral Muritor a traitor?? A TRAITOR?!?!?! THEM who MURDERED in cold blood the single biggest hope there was for the freedom of the tribes?! You have no right to call anyone a traitor, you hypocritical, stinking sons of *****es... I demand REVENGE!!! I demand ACTION!!! BROTHERS, SISTERS, WE MUST RISE... YOU HAVE SEEN WHAT THE CORRUPT GOVERNMENT OF THE DECAYING REPUBLIC IS AIMING TOWARDS... OUR PEOPLE WILL BE TAKEN ONE BY ONE, UNTIL NONE REMAIN BUT THE HYPOCRITICAL BASTARDS WHO WOULD SELL THEIR BROTHERS TO DEATH AND TORTURE ONLY TO SAVE THEIR OWN SKINS!!!
*Forty Three takes a break again, now not only crying, but sweating profusely*
Muritor, may you rest in peace... You always have and always will stay in my hearts and the hearts of all the people you worked to free... I salute you, great Defiant... I salute you.......
*Forty Three angrily closes the comlink, now with a continuous stream of tears coming down from his glasses... He does not bother to hide them*
UNITY!!!
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:45:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 14:49:13 (Speculation deleted till I have the facts.) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon The rot eating the Republic was revealed when Muritor turned traitor, and took others with him.
The rot was there long before it was revealed Elsebeth. How long will you and your organisation turn a blind eye before you wake up and see what you are actually doing. This is not the first assasination and it certainly won't be the last. Maybe you should try listening to people like Muritor while they're still alive, instead of dealing with the reverbations of their words when they die. You are worse than the assassins because you prop up their misdeeds out of sheer ignorant loyalty.
You must stick to your conviction, but be ready to abandon your assumptions.
This is a sad day, and not just because of the death of one freedom fighter.
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Thomas Maleficus
Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:59:00 -
[28]
He is indeed dead, there is no entry for him anymore in any databases. Muritor is dead, I saw the body myself which I respectfully collected along with his effects from the wreckage. Rest assured it has been and continues to be guarded with utmost respect, honour and dignity.
Pirates stole my signature.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:01:00 -
[29]
It is a sad day indeed.
On a happier one I might laugh at the idea of Jericho Fraction being worried about people killing other people - isn't it in your doctrine to allow exactly the right to do that for everyone? You speak against governments, but what difference is there in you banding together to kill whomever you call enemy, and in me giving my support to my organizations - my clan, my tribe, my nation - out of my own free will, and supporting them in their fights?
If I was an Amarr, or otherwise forced or coerced to my support to my Republic, now then I would understand your concern about morality, but where I am defending the freedom of our clans and tribes to govern themselves independently without the oppression by the Empire, I find Jericho Fraction opposing to that misguided at best. JF was not, last I checked, about peace, safety, and morality for all. You kill people to achieve freedoms, too. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:14:00 -
[30]
A sad day when a valiant man falls to such underhanded means, when a great fighter succumbs to treachery.
It is up to us now to do a great man honor by respecting his memory. Once again, nations show they cannot be trusted. Even those originally born to fight tyranny. The republic is shows itself again to be nothing more than a shell, supported by the lies of its proponents, living on nothing but protectionism and self-interest rather than any care for its people.
The cluster has no need for a republic that carefully licks the edge of Imperial boots and appeases evil. Tell your republic masters to try killing the enemy rather that an ally hunting a common foe, Elsebeth Rhiannon.
This is not killing people for freedom. This is killing to silence the voice that speaks for it. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:15:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon It is a sad day indeed.
On a happier one I might laugh at the idea of Jericho Fraction being worried about people killing other people - isn't it in your doctrine to allow exactly the right to do that for everyone? You speak against governments, but what difference is there in you banding together to kill whomever you call enemy, and in me giving my support to my organizations - my clan, my tribe, my nation - out of my own free will, and supporting them in their fights?
If I was an Amarr, or otherwise forced or coerced to my support to my Republic, now then I would understand your concern about morality, but where I am defending the freedom of our clans and tribes to govern themselves independently without the oppression by the Empire, I find Jericho Fraction opposing to that misguided at best. JF was not, last I checked, about peace, safety, and morality for all. You kill people to achieve freedoms, too.
The very simple difference Elsebeth is that your rotten wreck of a government is killing to maintain it's own power and this assassination is in no way related to killing for freedom or any other ideal of worth.
My purpose is freedom, yours is to maintain an edifice which is enslaving your own people all over again.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I find Jericho Fraction opposing to that misguided at best. JF was not, last I checked, about peace, safety, and morality for all. You kill people to achieve freedoms, too.
Karishal Muritor was not killed to achieve freedom. He was killed to preserve the power of the few over the many.
The leaders of the Republic have forgotten their purpose. The Republic is a means to ensure the freedom the Matari people. The Republic is not an end in and of itself.
"Oh, but we NEED the Republic," you say. "It keeps us FREE," you argue. And what of the Thukker? Are they not as free as you? I would argue that they are more free than you, who hide behind a government that would sooner see you dead than risk its own existence.
Choose your loyalties: Do you stand with the Republic, or do you stand with Freedom? The time when you could claim to stand for both has passed. _
Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -Pirlouit
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LaFond
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:20:00 -
[33]
Captain Muritor defected from the Fleet and stole huge amount of Fleet assets. This is treason and the punishment for treason is death. Apparently the punishment has been dealt.
It is sad that it had to come to this but I really can't think of any other person to blame than Captain Muritor. I also find the accusations that the Fleet did this to appease the Amarr Empire utterly ridiculous. There is nothing political in Fleet punishing a defector that committed treason.
-- James LaFond Republic citizen |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:29:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 15:28:24 I do not feel this is the time or the place for a political discussion with JF about the position of the Thukker in space and the elements that contribute to their freedom, despite that being an interesting topic, really... and I apologice for my part in hijacking this for that purpose. Feel free to catch me in space about it or to start a separate discussion, though; I will answer you as best I can.
Other than that, LF above said all that needs to be said really.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:46:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Nekumi on 02/02/2007 15:43:05
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 15:28:24 I do not feel this is the time or the place for a political discussion with JF about the position of the Thukker in space and the elements that contribute to their freedom, despite that being an interesting topic, really... and I apologice for my part in hijacking this for that purpose. Feel free to catch me in space about it or to start a separate discussion, though; I will answer you as best I can.
Other than that, LF above said all that needs to be said really.
This is not about the Thukker, that was one example Elsebeth. Your deflection is flawed and don't try and put it back onto anything but your state sponsored assassination. If you had any sympathy for Muritor you wouldn't have shown your skulking statist face anywhere near this thread.
A man left your corrupt state and was murdered in a cowardly and cold blooded way, to preserve that regime. That is the simple truth here and you cannot disguise it any other way.
How long will it be before Vitoc is being used to quell dissent among the people?
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Spiderweb
Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:58:00 -
[36]
RISE BROTHERS
I fight for Ideals represended mainly by Matari children, yet Their own people Betray themselves and their brothers?
I feel ashamed for ever stepping and working for officers of the Republic, I can see now they are not better than the Amarr Empire, in their arrogance and corruption.
What the Caldari corporations do to the Universe sickens me, but what transpired Yesterday by the Republic officials repulses me. ALL Minmattar citizens should be ashamed for this treason. Muritor FOUGHT for all people freedom and yet he got Assasinated by trickery and deception, not even in fair combat.
You are corrupt and sick. Yes you. The Republic fleet lackeys that took part in this despicable act of cowardice. You now hold my utter disrespect for anything that have to do with your pathetic goverment. I WILL fight for freedom now and forever, no matter how the Republic tries to interfere, no matter how much your lies and deception help your supposedly arch-enemies, I WILL fight untill the last man woman and child breaths free. Free of slavery, Free of oppresion, free of corruption ...
The death of Muritor will echo in your souls as the last thundering strike wakes you up from your slumber.
Shame, for the Republic betraying its most loyal servant
Vengeance, for the warriors that gave their lives for the cause
Dedication, in our heart and soul
Untill the Chains are broken...
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"For today, the arm of Unity clenched its fist..." |
GoGo Yubari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.02 16:01:00 -
[37]
Assassinations, political expediency and the suppression of dissenting voices. This is the way of governments everywhere. The Matari should place their trust in their kin, not on the foreign constructs that bind them to terms of surrender wrapped in the guise of peace and kept in place by the vox populi. Perhaps the wisdom of tribal elders and clan heads should be heeded instead, as they might lead with more authentic concern rather than being driven by the spineless capitulation of the Republic's leaders.
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X3S
Minmatar SYOID Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.02.02 16:24:00 -
[38]
Karishal Muritor died for what believed in, and will be remember for what he lived for.. Freedom!
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Sepherim
Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2007.02.02 16:29:00 -
[39]
Mabnen Sysem - Emperor's Family Station - Ordo Quaesitoris' homebase:
The comm channel beeped with an orange light. Somethnig of a certani importance had been located by the searcher. Parameter of the search found: Muritor. Interesting indeed.
Sepherim read through the words of all, and nodded. Most said was already known for him, and much else was predictable. Heclosed the window after reading, and pondered on the issue for a few minutes. Then left the comm channel still searchnig on that issue (as with many others) and returned to his work. --------------------- Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith Ordo Quaesitoris Forum |
Se'la Rox
Caldari Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.02 16:45:00 -
[40]
Interesting. I think someone just did the Empire's dirty work for them.
Remove a thorn in the side of the Empire? Check. Create dissent within the Republic? Check. Hurt the reputation of the Republic leadership? Check. Push the more extremist factions within the Matar towards outright war? Check. Increase in the tension yet further, giving the Imperial fleet a legitimate reason to enter the border region in force? Check.
You couldn't have planned it any better. Or perhaps it was?
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.02 17:00:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Se'la Rox Interesting. I think someone just did the Empire's dirty work for them.
Remove a thorn in the side of the Empire? Check. Create dissent within the Republic? Check. Hurt the reputation of the Republic leadership? Check. Push the more extremist factions within the Matar towards outright war? Check. Increase in the tension yet further, giving the Imperial fleet a legitimate reason to enter the border region in force? Check.
You couldn't have planned it any better. Or perhaps it was?
On the other hand leaving Muritor alive would have pretty much the same consequences. If we're going to use that checklist to determine if an action was planned by the Amarr or not then Muritors defection in the first place would ALSO have been planned by the Amarr empire (which would have made Muritor an Amarr agent, highly ironical given Muritors convictions).
In truth, while the empire looks favorably upon the removal of Muritor, the Republic leadership had to chose between two bad choices. That is the consequence of not having a strong central leadership with absolute authority. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Se'la Rox
Caldari Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.02 18:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel On the other hand leaving Muritor alive would have pretty much the same consequences. If we're going to use that checklist to determine if an action was planned by the Amarr or not then Muritors defection in the first place would ALSO have been planned by the Amarr empire (which would have made Muritor an Amarr agent, highly ironical given Muritors convictions).
I didn't mean to say that it was the only thing that could happen, it's only one possible outcome.
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Vendrin
Caldari APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.02 19:05:00 -
[43]
A sad day. He had courage and strength and was slain by his own. Perhaps the Matari should look for a better form of government, besides that of the Federation. _____________________________________
APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information! |
Irias Salo
Caldari The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.02 19:06:00 -
[44]
Truly a shame.
Originally by: Ginger. There is no roleplay, there is only EVE
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Redora
Gallente Drink Through It
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Posted - 2007.02.02 20:13:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Redora on 02/02/2007 20:13:23 *Redora appears shocked, re-reading over and over the text scrolling down her Neo-Comm... Seeing a former ally post.... And again.... And again. Her shock increasing with each iteration of her "ally's" words.*
Originally by: LaFond Captain Muritor defected from the Fleet and stole huge amount of Fleet assets. This is treason and the punishment for treason is death. Apparently the punishment has been dealt.
It is sad that it had to come to this but I really can't think of any other person to blame than Captain Muritor. I also find the accusations that the Fleet did this to appease the Amarr Empire utterly ridiculous. There is nothing political in Fleet punishing a defector that committed treason.
-- James LaFond Republic citizen
TREASON, LaFond, demands a TRIAL, which Captain Muritor was denied. TREASON is "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" whom I would identify as "The Amarr" something I'm SURE Captain Muritor is rolling in his icy grave over. TREASON is not what Captain Muritor committed. Flying for NMTZ (Which I have recently terminated) was an honour, as I THOUGHT we were flying for FREEDOM. Not for the misguided and unwarranted 'sacrifices' the Republic has made to appease The Slavers. I can see now, by Elsebeth (whom I formerly respected as someone who had to put up with a LOT of Alliance Diplo****) and your own posts, that Namtz'aar K'in does NOT stand for freedom, just another form of oppression. Now instead of "Amarr over Matari" it is "Strong over Weak". Captain Muritor saw what was happening--Amarri border raids, Slavers flying to and fro through Matari space--unhindered by the Republic Fleet. He took his own action, action which was not condoned by the Republic, and for that they killed him. UK's response may be 'unreasoned' but NMTZ's is just as much so. It appears that "Let us keep throwing away expendable Matari so long as we remain safe" is the modus operandi of this alliance. Unreasonable, perhaps. But reason was lost when Captain Muritor committed Grand Theft. Reason was lost the day the arrogance of the Amarr lead them to enslave an entire PEOPLE. Reason was lost when Captain Muritor's assassination order was signed. And when "reason" is lost, so is something else. "Justice".
*She angrily slaps "End Transmission".* Redora
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.02 20:24:00 -
[46]
A sad event, for reasons, perhaps, beyond even the obvious. I offer my respects to the deceased, and to the Matari people on both sides of this issue.
I do have a further question, however: can anyone confirm that Muritor was, in fact, killed ship to ship, while in his pod? The reports so far are unclear, and the implications are radically different depending on the manner of his death.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 21:23:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 21:22:26 This I know now and can confirm, from various sources. Honor and respect to those who have helped us to piece this together, in an effort to get facts clear and prevent a conflict we cannot afford.
Karishal Muritor went to meet Kanth Filmir alone, out of his own call, and ordered his men to stay away. Why he chose to do this is unclear. To my knowledge, there was not explicit promise from Filmir not to shoot, but Muritor possibly had a good reason to assume an implicit one.
In the meeting, Filmir attempted to arrest Muritor, who refused to comply. Filmir received orders to fire, and reluctantly passed them on. Muritor was killed in space, ship to ship, apparently without trying to defend himself.
The pilot database does not list Karishal Muritor anymore, but other than that there is no proof of his permanent death, and I would not consider that proof at all, given that if he is in Fleet custody, striking him from the registry would be a very understandable action.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.02 21:58:00 -
[48]
The lengths you will stretch to clutch at your straws and remain appolagetic for the Republic is astonishing at least.
Do you think Admiral Filmir would have been so emotional about ordering his men to fire if he knew that Karishal would wake up in a clone vat in a Republic Prison? Do you think Karishal would not have a clone somewhere where he could not be captured by the fleet should he be killed in his pod?
I doubt he forgot to take a new clone contract that is not in the middle of a Fleet base after all he had done up until now. He is dead. It was designed that way. How anyone in the fleet or government could think he would simply go along with them because they asked is beyond me. They knew this would be the only outcome and they still did it. If they were prepared to issue these orders they should be prepared to resign with honour instead of continue to serve in government under the pretense of having served 'justice'. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 22:38:00 -
[49]
At this point, Shakor, I am only piecing together what I can know from evidence, not speculating on motives or explanations.
Whatever stance you take to it, this is a very grim incident, and the reactions to it have even graver implications. Wherever Karishal Muritor is, it is evident he will never fly again, not with you, or with us.
So in effect a great man has died, and another has been forced to slay his brother, and we should all mourn this - no matter which man we believe to be the greater traitor.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.02 23:32:00 -
[50]
This is indeed a sad day. A day when brother kills brother.
However, this should not divide us. I say, find those who gave the order, try them in a court of law, and punish them properly.
Ushra'Khan, if you are true Matari, you will work to change the Republic, not attack it. Work from within. Spread the word. Maybe even attempt to form a political party and run for Parliament. I imagine an Ushra'Khan party could get a LOT of votes.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
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Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 00:43:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 21:22:26 In the meeting, Filmir attempted to arrest Muritor, who refused to comply. Filmir received orders to fire, and reluctantly passed them on. Muritor was killed in space, ship to ship, apparently without trying to defend himself.
With respect, this is simply not true. I was the Commander of the Ushra'Khan Forces at the scene of the slaying and I can say with absolute certainty that no effort was made to arrest Karishal. The two men spoke of past conflicts and reminised of an event where Karishal saved Filmir's life. At that point 6 Fleet Tempest Class ships arrived and scrambled Karishal's ship. He was given personal assurances by Filmir prior to the meeting hence the lack of his own men to defend him.
Karishal never stated that he would be willing to be taken into custody and had specifically stated to the contrary in the past. He turned up to a meeting with an old and dear friend out of trust to discuss matters which he had been lead to be of great import. He did not suspect treachery from his dear friend.
It is safe to assume that those higher than Filmir knew full well that Karishal would not be taken without force and the minimal period of time that passed between the refusal to go and the order to fire shows that a standing order to kill him was in place. Whilst the assassination was not as clear cut as turn up and pull the trigger immediately, it is obvious that the intention was to permanently remove Karishal by force.
I agree with you on one thing Elsebeth, Kanth Filmir is a man of honour and he seemed genuinely agonised that he had been chosen for such a mission. He followed his orders, but he betrayed a friend. He will live with that on his conscience.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 01:03:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 03/02/2007 01:00:00 I would not mean to imply that Muritor would have at any point agreed to be taken into custody. It seems to me he most definitely did not. However, it also seems to me Filmir tried to persuade him to before firing. That is all I meant. My apologies for any misunderstandings.
It seems likely now that Muritor went to the meeting without expecting to be stopped by force. It seems also likely Filmir was prepared to use force, though he seems to have hoped it would not be necessary. To which extent, if any, he had to mislead Muritor or lie to him to achieve the meeting is currently unknown to me.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 01:10:00 -
[53]
Words are twisted, knives are brandished in back alleys and the mask of the Minmatar Republic slips a little further.
Karishal was lured to a secret meeting with his former friend Filmir. This was not the first such meeting and these matters were always handled as solitary meetings. The Republic can twist and turn like an Amarrian as much as it wants. Whether or not this stipulation to come alone was explicitly made this time is irrelevant. They knew full well Karishal would come alone and that he would not attack his own people. The Republic Fleet relied on this to spring their trap. True he was offered the chance to hand himself over but that is just more twisting in the wind. Karishal, like many of us, are accused of treason and are outlaws in the Republic. In custody or in space he was a dead man the moment the trap was sprung. At least he died in the freedom of space than in a Republican termination chamber, or as Elsebeth has hinted at, ‘disappeared’ by the Parliamentary secret police.
Yes, Karishal Muritor is dead. His body lies in state at Unity Station. He was a great man, a warrior and a hero to his people. He no doubt chose to not raise his defenses to simply avoid prolonging the inevitable. He was trapped and doomed to die and he knew it. The only way for him to escape would be for us to slaughter the Republic death squad that had been sent for him. That was a line Karishal was not prepared to cross, even if it cost him his life. He was a truly great and noble man.
The relationship between the Republic and those who fight to free our people from the Amarr has been close at times, tenuous at others. To have sent a death squad to murder such a prominent Freedom Fighter, or any of our Brothers, is a line that should never have been crossed. The Republic leadership has shown now that they are prepared to use their weaponry against those who seek to free our people rather than against those who daily enslave our people. Karishal and The Defiants were right to steal those capital ships from the Republic, I cannot imagine the genocide they could create with them in the name of peaceful relations with the slavers.
Even as I prepare this broadcast paramilitary agents threaten us in private while in public they invite us to effect change in the Republic. This is the duplicity we face and a duplicity that has no place in Matari affairs. I expect this from the Ammatar but not from you. The Ushra’Khan party, amusing since the Republic denies us any vote and has listed most of us as outlaws and traitors. We do however seek to change the Republic for the better.
Citizens of the Republic, miners, agent contractors, traders, industrialists and merchants. Do not be kow-towed by the Fleet or the Paramilitaries. You are free Matari, made so by Freedom Fighters like Drupar & Karishal. Millions more of our kin are yet to be freed. Stand now and be counted, demand Republic Elections now. Show us that this is not your will to be led by these cowards. Fill the skies of Pator in protest, raise your fists in the air. It is time for the Sebiestor tribe to stand down and make way for stronger leaders. You have 20 days remaining.
As for the accusations, albeit round about and wrapped in double talk, that I am lying about the public assassination of Karishal. It is my turn to ask for proof. I demand proof that Karin Midular is in fact a Sebiestor and not a Nafantar agent sent by the Mandate to bring the Rebuplic slowly to it’s knees. My own science team will extract a genetic sample from her in person. She should come alone to a meeting place of our choosing. I await an official communiquT from the Republic Parliament with great anticipation.
>> RECRUITING << |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 01:15:00 -
[54]
I have one question...ushrakhan....what is your problem. You speak of treachery, of a nation betrayed by its leaders, of a great man killed.
The man killed was not only a terrorist, but a THIEF from the Republic fleet. He stole ships, capitals as well as normal ships, from the Republic. This is a message that such trechory will not go unpunished, The Republic has fought back at those who would steal from them, to show that the Republic is not to be double crossed lightly.
Congratulations to the Republic Fleet
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 01:16:00 -
[55]
I have not implied you lie, Thrace. I have never implied that, and if you stop to read back you can see that personally I would have put my money on your account to be the truth.
I understand your grief and your rage, but hear me and hold them back for now. Let us all adjust to the shock, and let us talk to people, and get our bearings. Let us mourn, and then when that is done and we are calmer, let us talk.
I will refrain from answering any further, for now. I do not want this to escalate any further.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai
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Posted - 2007.02.03 02:16:00 -
[56]
How unusual to see the Republic take such a "hands on" action in their politics. Guess the period of a passive Republic government is over for good or ill. ----- *results may vary*
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.03 04:16:00 -
[57]
Hm. If he was downed in his pod, this seems a very ominous circumstance indeed.
The Republic would, presumably, not have fired on Muritor if they did not know for certain that he would -not- be waking up in a clone bay, outside of their control. After all, to do so would be to face the probability of violating truce without neutralizing the perceived threat.
Either the Republic has set Muritor up to fake his own death (unlikely, as if the scheme failed it would be hugely embarrassing, and if it succeeded they'd face the ongoing risk of it failing for as long as Muritor lived), or the Republic has the means to either jam or otherwise sabotage the cloning process. I would suggest that some investigation by Muritor's allies into exactly how he failed to clone would be more than a good idea.
What we are seeing here is the apparently successful execution of a pod pilot-- an operation which has, statistically, only about a 2% chance of success, based on clone failure rates. The implications are chilling: through one means or another, at least one empire (the Republic) would appear to have the means to control pod pilots, or at least to dispose of those who cause it sufficient grief. Whether this is unique to Muritor's circumstances or common to the entire community, it seems like a good idea for politically-active pod pilots to frequently and randomly switch the locations of their active clones so as to hopefully ensure a successful awakening from their next deaths.
Until we have a better understanding of what happened to Muritor, it appears that paranoia is, once again, a survival trait among those in our profession.
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Thomas Maleficus
Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 04:38:00 -
[58]
I humbly request that all interested freedom fighters, Minmatar and supporters on both sides set aside their differences in this matter for a time to pay respect. We need to understand somthing, what ever Muritors detractors take issue with, he is dead, and he served the Matari, and was a war hero, and still is. Muritor sacrificed much for the Matari before the Defiants, honour those actions if you have any compassion. Do not let this degrade to name calling and arguing. What is done is done, do not dishonour him. You cannot fail to recognise the good he did before the Defiants, even if you fail to recognise the value of what he did with the Defiants. It does no service to anyone to fail to honour him in death for the dead cannot defend themselves. I would honour my gravest enemy in his death and expect no less of all of you who consider themselves honourable. Give time to mourn and sort this out later.
Those who wish to view the body to pay their respects may contact me. Only those serious about paying their respects will be permitted and if I doubt your intentions for a second you will be denied. Pirates stole my signature.
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Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 05:05:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Thomas Maleficus I humbly request that all interested freedom fighters, Minmatar and supporters on both sides set aside their differences in this matter for a time to pay respect. We need to understand somthing, what ever Muritors detractors take issue with, he is dead, and he served the Matari, and was a war hero, and still is. Muritor sacrificed much for the Matari before the Defiants, honour those actions if you have any compassion. Do not let this degrade to name calling and arguing. What is done is done, do not dishonour him. You cannot fail to recognise the good he did before the Defiants, even if you fail to recognise the value of what he did with the Defiants. It does no service to anyone to fail to honour him in death for the dead cannot defend themselves. I would honour my gravest enemy in his death and expect no less of all of you who consider themselves honourable. Give time to mourn and sort this out later.
Seconded. I do not believe that Muritor would wish his death to be the trigger for a Matari civil war.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
Lion El'Johnson
Minmatar Lion's Emporium
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Posted - 2007.02.03 05:37:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Lion El''Johnson on 03/02/2007 05:34:43 Hmmmm interesting indeed.
So the republic would stoop so low as to kill a man who fights for a principle that our race was reborn on?
The Minmatar Republic officials are hereby passed a vote of no confidence from Lion's Emporium. Civil war could be well on the horizon for such a despicable act such as this. Lion's Emporium is hereby resetting its standings toward known corporations that operate in accordance with Republic policy.
We True Matari must not tolerate this. The Republic leaders should be made accountable for this and our government should recieve a little shake down.
Never in my deepest nightmares would I have ever thought I would see the day when the Republic started to act as the Empire.
Tis a sad day indeed. Rest in Peace Karishal Muritor.
So begins a dark time for the Matari...
Proper Regards, Lion El'Johnson CEO Lion's Emporium Corporation.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND."
...Winston Churchill. |
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:46:00 -
[61]
Ask yourself this Ushra'Khan. If one of your own commanders left your ranks and in doing so stole equipment, ships and ISK how would you react?
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Butcher el'Hek
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:09:00 -
[62]
Aodha,
With honour. No tricks.
However the question has little relevence, If Ushra'khan fleet pilots were forced to be so impotent through command from a spineless leader than I would be amongst the ranks of those boarding ships and queuing up to join the Defiants.
Butcher.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:10:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Ask yourself this Ushra'Khan. If one of your own commanders left your ranks and in doing so stole equipment, ships and ISK how would you react?
If he took that equipment and became the first to destroy an Imperial Battle platform since the uprising. Disrupted and destroyed countless slaver raids against Matari colonies and took a mighty stand to free our people once and for all?
Personally I'd either join him or offer him a full pardon and promotion.
Of course we all know how Republicans would react.
>> RECRUITING << |
Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Ask yourself this Ushra'Khan. If one of your own commanders left your ranks and in doing so stole equipment, ships and ISK how would you react?
So he is nothing more than a theif to you. This is war and our people are dying whilst Midular and her lackeys bathe in their towers of gold feeding poison to the people laced in vitox. Because a great man stood up and declared he cannot sit idly by anymore while our people die, you condemn him. The Republic has been dying for years, the enemies sit on our borders and they do nothing, they raid our homes and take our children and they do nothing. They slaughter us like cattle and you dare sit there and declare peace and comprimise the better solution when we have been at war since the darkest days.
It is sad that all you care about is isk now and your first thoughts were that and not what followed. I hope the asteroid belts in Molden Heath are a nice distraction from the universe. Would hate for the little inconvience of war to affect your profits.
You of all people should know, we dont care about petty greed, money, gems or ships. All of those can be replaced. We care about our people, Muritor cared about our people and sacrificed everything for them.
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Wanoah
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:41:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Ask yourself this Ushra'Khan. If one of your own commanders left your ranks and in doing so stole equipment, ships and ISK how would you react?
The analogy doesn't stand up. It's more like a member corp leaving because they disagree with a course of action. A number of our member corps have left and have acquitted themselves well in the cause of the Minmatar people. We wish them well.
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 13:12:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 03/02/2007 13:09:11
Originally by: Hakera
So he is nothing more than a theif to you.
Please, don't put words in my mouth. Pilots like Muritor made me who I am today, but that doesn't mean his acts of stealing Republic property become right.
I think both parties are in the wrong here. I just wish Ushra'Khan could see that adding another wrong in declaring open hostilies with the Republic isn't going to help the situation. It will lead to more disaster.
Is Midular the problem? Or, do you wish to see the end to the Republic? If it is the former, then surely there are better ways of removing her from power than acts of war inside Matari borders?
I have no more respect for Midular than you do but I would not resort to having her murdered to remove her from power.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Cipher7
Nightgliders Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 13:18:00 -
[67]
Government is not the People.
When they hold an election, it does not mean the people will govern, it just means the ARENA that the power-elite use to rise to power is SOCIAL and AESTHETIC rather than MILITARY.
When two tyrants wage war over control of a planet, it is a military contest.
When two candidates enter an election to be President, it is a vanity contest.
They are just saying the right words and using their aesthetics to move the masses, like two actors competing for an award, its just a different Arena of Power.
Often times it is not actually the politician that is in control, but those behind him pulling the string, either wealthy individuals, or the politician's underlings and advisors with their own agenda.
It is just an illusion for the masses to think they have any sort of control, they don't.
The Republic does not represent the Matari people.
It never has.
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Thomas Maleficus
Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:08:00 -
[68]
FINE! All of you who continue this debate while others mourn, you have no honour in my eyes. A simple request, honour the fallen. You can't even do that. Pirates stole my signature.
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Solusar
Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:12:00 -
[69]
Excellent news. It appears the republic does wish for peace and is not taking note of actions by the terrorist elements within the Matari peoples.
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Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:34:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 03/02/2007 13:09:11
Originally by: Hakera
So he is nothing more than a theif to you.
Please, don't put words in my mouth. Pilots like Muritor made me who I am today, but that doesn't mean his acts of stealing Republic property become right.
I think both parties are in the wrong here. I just wish Ushra'Khan could see that adding another wrong in declaring open hostilies with the Republic isn't going to help the situation. It will lead to more disaster.
Is Midular the problem? Or, do you wish to see the end to the Republic? If it is the former, then surely there are better ways of removing her from power than acts of war inside Matari borders?
I have no more respect for Midular than you do but I would not resort to having her murdered to remove her from power.
So you feel that the leader of the republic has the right to order the execution of a member of its people. Never mind the fact that he was decieved to get him to the meeting, or that he was a decorated war hero. You see a person standing up against the established order and saying no as someone worthy of being assassinated? If this had been the case in the past where would all Minmatar be? They would still be slaves.
Midular must go. Before this event she would just need to stand down. Now, she must account for her actions. I was there, i saw him go down, i was patched into the comms between them. I am convinced of Midular's guilt to the point that she must move aside. If she does not then she must be forced. I see little problem with executing her for the damage she has done the republic.
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:43:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Aodha Khan
I think both parties are in the wrong here.
I have no more respect for Midular than you do but I would not resort to having her murdered to remove her from power.
Originally by: Sapphrine
So you feel that the leader of the republic has the right to order the execution of a member of its people.
Did you bother to read what you quoted, Caldari? Calm down, take deep breath and re-read.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:49:00 -
[72]
So you feel that the leader of the republic has the right to order the execution of a member of its people. Never mind the fact that he was decieved to get him to the meeting, or that he was a decorated war hero. You see a person standing up against the established order and saying no as someone worthy of being assassinated? If this had been the case in the past where would all Minmatar be? They would still be slaves.
Midular must go. Before this event she would just need to stand down. Now, she must account for her actions. I was there, i saw him go down, i was patched into the comms between them. I am convinced of Midular's guilt to the point that she must move aside. If she does not then she must be forced. I see little problem with executing her for the damage she has done the republic.
I must say, it is very clear even to an Amarr paramilitary that this "decorated war hero" you speak of, who was stripped of his rank and declared an outlaw by the republic government, who stole from them and then waged a war that he was not allowed to by you republic. He was clearly NOT a member of the republic, it executed a THIEF, TERRORIST and TRAITOR. Would you not do the same? All Midular is guilty of is serving her nation and killing a traitor.
Just because this man was one you supported, you who do not support the republic anyway, does not mean that the Republic has betrayed its people. You mean it has killed a hero of those who do not serve it, and who commits acts of piracy and war against another nation in an attempt to drag the Republic and the Empire into a war.
Before you moan, think. Are you angry because you think the republic betrayed its people, or are you angry because the Republic did not support you, the people who do not support it.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:50:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Popsikle on 03/02/2007 15:49:17
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon The rot eating the Republic was revealed when Muritor turned traitor, and took others with him.
The rot IS the republic, it is a sad day indeed when someone who was willing to take a stand is murdered for it. But then again, most of you loyalists wouldnt know what it is like to fight for your people, no matter the cost, until the end. You all to caught up in policitcs and "rules" we have to abide by as our people suffer. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Derran
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:13:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Aodha Khan I have no more respect for Midular than you do but I would not resort to having her murdered to remove her from power.
Is that not exactly what the Republic did to Muritor? That sounds hypocritical to me.
He may be considered a thief to some butI look at it as he did what was necessary to get the job done. People respect and follow actions, not lack thereof. Diplomacy obviously has not worked for all these years and there is obviously no resolution in sight. Those who think there is the possibility of peace or resolution of the differences between the Amarr Empire and the Republic are kidding themselves. It is about idealogy. People who believe in freedom and those who believe in subjucation will never see eye to eye. Muritor recognized that where others did not so he took matters into his own hands instead of doing essentially nothing.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:35:00 -
[75]
So, Derran, if a U'K director decides it is "necessary for to get the job done" to steal a couple of your capships and go fight people you do not currently want a war with, you are pretty ok with it, cause, you know, he was following his heart and he saw what is necessary?
No?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:47:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Derran
Originally by: Aodha Khan I have no more respect for Midular than you do but I would not resort to having her murdered to remove her from power.
Is that not exactly what the Republic did to Muritor? That sounds hypocritical to me.
As I already stated before and repeated in more than one post. Both parties appear to be in the wrong here.
I am still not sure that Muritor was murdered. Until a full investigation can occur then it's all theory and rhetoric. He could be sitting in his new clone on a warm beach as we speak.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:48:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon So, Derran, if a U'K director decides it is "necessary for to get the job done" to steal a couple of your capships and go fight people you do not currently want a war with, you are pretty ok with it, cause, you know, he was following his heart and he saw what is necessary?
No?
Gradients age old agenda against us is well known. Your analogy is utter tripe as is most of the poison that reaks from every orifice of you.
We are at war, fighting to get our people back and you would pay for your peace with their blood to line the vaults with riches. What Muritor did is no different than what we do daily. Stand up and be counted. The actions of the Defiants have parallised the Imperial navy and their influence and power on our borders. They did more for our people in one month that your petty talk and idle gossip has done in years.
Get your little poison pen scribbling away some more. I am sure it will not be long before Midular sends her assassins after the ones who threaten her power most now.
The time for talk is over.
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Hakera
Your analogy is utter tripe as is most of the poison that reaks from every orifice of you.
Answering simple questions with insults is quite telling, really.
If you decided that your council was not acting the way you wanted it to and you stole from them before leaving. I'm have no doubt the U'K council would put you on KOS.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Derran
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:12:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Derran on 03/02/2007 17:11:11
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon So, Derran, if a U'K director decides it is "necessary for to get the job done" to steal a couple of your capships and go fight people you do not currently want a war with, you are pretty ok with it, cause, you know, he was following his heart and he saw what is necessary?
Yes. Good enough for you? I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission.
When diplomacy is doomed to failure, actions speak louder than words.
Again, like I said, this is about ideaology. When two dimetrically opposing views clash, do you really think peace is going to be attainable? There is never going to be peace because coexistance is impossible. The Minmatar people oppose slavery and values freedom, the Amarr supports slavery and subjucating people. Now if the Amarr Empire decided to free its existing slave population and just leave the Minmatar people alone, I'd be all for it. As that is never going to happen in a million lifetimes, what use is diplomacy going to be? There is no common ground to be able to compromise.
And if you do not think we are already not at war, then you are just plain kidding yourself. It is just a silent one. It goes on every day in places no one cares about.
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:12:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Aodha Khan
If you decided that your council was not acting the way you wanted it to and you stole from them before leaving. I'm have no doubt the U'K council would put you on KOS.
That is where you are wrong. Clearly your time as a blood drinker and pirate bring everything back to isk.
The means were justified by the ends. All you care about is stolen property and isk. It is a shame, I remember when you used to be a Matari who cared about something more than possessions.
The Fleet has a responibility to protect its people, all of them. The last part being the part you conveniently forget. They cannot do that when shackled in dock by the politicians trying to barter for more scraps from the empire's table and dancing to the beat of the empires whips.
You call him a theif. I call him Matari. He did more in one month for our people than you have done in three years and you dare to insult him here saying he deserved it. As a ship commander he took an oath to protect the people. He carried out those duties to the end. Dance to the beat if you want, but I for one will tell the story of Muritor, the real story to all my children and they will tell it to theirs.
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Nihils Astari
Gallente Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 18:47:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Nihils Astari on 03/02/2007 18:45:48
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon So, Derran, if a U'K director decides it is "necessary for to get the job done" to steal a couple of your capships and go fight people you do not currently want a war with, you are pretty ok with it, cause, you know, he was following his heart and he saw what is necessary?
No?
Interesting question from someone who advocates deception, assassination, and cover-ups should they be "whatever is necessary for the Republic" (page 1 of this discussion). While I have little power within the ranks of Ushra'Khan, I'm certain their response to your hypothetical situation would be far more honest and direct than the response the republic gave Muritor.
As far as "not wanting a war with"....they're the Amarr...who hold far too many people as personal property (and feel utterly justified in doing so) for any self-respecting human not to want a war with them.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:21:00 -
[82]
I do not advocate assasinations, deception, or cover-ups. Neither do I advocate threatening of other Matari with violence over an organization punishing a thief.
If you refuse to see the possibility of peace with the Amarr, try at least see the possibility of that with other Matari, will you?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:28:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I do not advocate assasinations, deception, or cover-ups. Neither do I advocate threatening of other Matari with violence over an organization punishing a thief.
If you refuse to see the possibility of peace with the Amarr, try at least see the possibility of that with other Matari, will you?
see Gradient would run the Republic much better. Death to the Republic!
Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel |
zoolkhan
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:43:00 -
[84]
..aboard the 'FMS Nidh÷gg Drakk' in close Orbit Moon 3 commanders quarters.
"Sir , are you allright?"
"..."
"Sit down young captain, i will tell you a story about a man, that sacrified all he raised up with to accelerate the inevitable.... he did never aimed to be a martyr... "
zoolkhan stood up crunching a datapad in his palm to its atoms.. and walked silent to the bulleye staring at the moon teh ship was orbiting..
U'K recruit!
contact me ingame for free eve webshosting |
Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:10:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I do not advocate assasinations, deception, or cover-ups. Neither do I advocate threatening of other Matari with violence over an organization punishing a thief.
If you refuse to see the possibility of peace with the Amarr, try at least see the possibility of that with other Matari, will you?
Peace with the Amarr is impossible. Peace with the other Matari is not an issue. Stop trying to make this look like U'K wish to declare war on the Matari. As has been stated again and again, Midular must be removed as the heart of the corruption holding the Republic cowed. Stop trying to equate Midular to the Republic. Midular is one person, a person who's actions restrain a people who wish to free their brethren. Midular's cowardice in ordering the killing of a decorated war hero shows that there is no depths she will not sink to to cling on to the vestiges of power she has.
For evil to triumph, good people need only stand by. Midular may well be the head of the Republic but that does not make her infallible. We are not the Empire, we allow challenges to our leadership. When the leadership is weak it must be replaced and when it is not willing to leave it must be forced. If midular were to stand aside that would remove the need to kill her for the good of the Republic but she would still need to stand trial for Karishal's Murder.
Again, personally if i meet her i wont hesitate to kill her in revenge but that is just my honour to take revenge for the death of a fellow warrior speaking.
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Derran
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I do not advocate assasinations, deception, or cover-ups. Neither do I advocate threatening of other Matari with violence over an organization punishing a thief.
If you refuse to see the possibility of peace with the Amarr, try at least see the possibility of that with other Matari, will you?
If you don't advocate it, then why do you support the Republic? I'm sure you will go on and on about proof and investigations. And I am sure after many pointless months, the investigation will no doubt completely absolve the Republic of all responsibility so it can all be quietly tucked away with the rest of the dirty laundry. But I have all the proof I need. Eyewitnesses and the word of people I know. I don't need some biased organization drawing the conclusions they want to get the end result they want.
As for the mere mention of peace with the Amarr, now I know you are insane.
Are you willing to abandon those uncountable masses who continue to suffer in the Empire? Is that what you are willing to sacrifice for peace? Because that is exactly what you will have to give up as even a schoolchild will know that the Empire will never release what they consider their 'property' and they will continue to take and take until there is nothing left. The Empire will never give into any requests we make because they consider us inferior.
The way I see the situation is like this. The Empire is like a big bully. They push those weaker than themselves around not for money or power but because they can and feel they have the right to do so. The Republic are the scared schoolkids who stay out of the way, capitulating to whatever demands they make for the sake of 'peace'. Muritor decided it was enough and gave them a bloody nose. When the bullies couldn't handle it anymore, they went crying to the new bully's mom, the Republic, to deal with it. And they dealt with it. Now the powers that be in the Republic will scurry away telling grand stories about how good diplomats they are and patting themselves on the back, constantly giving in to the Empire's demands for the sake of 'peace' until again people like Muritor who has courage, conviction and an actual backbone stands up to them and decides it is not worth giving in to the demands being made.
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Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:16:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Sapphrine on 03/02/2007 20:14:16 Edited by: Sapphrine on 03/02/2007 20:13:42
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin
I must say, it is very clear even to an Amarr paramilitary that this "decorated war hero" you speak of, who was stripped of his rank and declared an outlaw by the republic government, who stole from them and then waged a war that he was not allowed to by you republic. He was clearly NOT a member of the republic, it executed a THIEF, TERRORIST and TRAITOR. Would you not do the same? All Midular is guilty of is serving her nation and killing a traitor.
Just because this man was one you supported, you who do not support the republic anyway, does not mean that the Republic has betrayed its people. You mean it has killed a hero of those who do not serve it, and who commits acts of piracy and war against another nation in an attempt to drag the Republic and the Empire into a war.
Before you moan, think. Are you angry because you think the republic betrayed its people, or are you angry because the Republic did not support you, the people who do not support it.
I think i've made it fairly clear. Midular's actions exceeded her role as a head of state. Assassinating your people even if they are ones you brand as traitors might well be the barbarism of the Amarr but is not at the core of the Minmatar.
I am angry at Midular for betraying the Republic. The Republic is meant to represent the people and the people do not wish to see their brethren enslaved. There may well have been a case long ago for not waging a war to free the rest of the Minmatar people from the Amarrian because we would not have one at the time.... that is not longer the case. Midular is a coward who would rather live with the power she already holds and not ACT to SAVE the rest of the people.
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Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:25:00 -
[88]
I have a better idea, Ushra'Khan. Rather than turning your guns on the Republic, change it from within.
Not with your votes, of course. A few hundred votes will make little difference. However, you have both near-celebrity status and millions of ISK.
I say, therefore, you should run for office yourselves. Form a new political party - the Liberation party. Unseat those who slew Karishal Muritor, and ensure that such things do not happen again.
I should mention that should you do so, you have my vote.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
zoolkhan
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:29:00 -
[89]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 03/02/2007 20:26:41
Originally by: Nachshon I have a better idea, Ushra'Khan. Rather than turning your guns on the Republic, change it from within.
Not with your votes, of course. A few hundred votes will make little difference. However, you have both near-celebrity status and millions of ISK.
I say, therefore, you should run for office yourselves. Form a new political party - the Liberation party. Unseat those who slew Karishal Muritor, and ensure that such things do not happen again.
I should mention that should you do so, you have my vote.
The peoples republic of matar was such a movement. In the end, it got ignored by the masses and did not even obtain seats in the parliament.
at one stage some of the PRM, decided to escalate to the next level, to walk ahead - and bring war to the slavers, and free our brothers.. The friends of matar (FoM) and a few PRM units, as well as former oracle corporations from pioneer times - united under one banner.
Ushra'khan was born.
We will not travel back in time.
Still, your idea is reasonable. It deserves support..
U'K recruit!
contact me ingame for free eve webshosting |
Chishan
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:36:00 -
[90]
Chishan sat in an undefined corner of Unity, off in the shadows. Her fist clenched and unclenched, as she remembered...
Originally by: "The recent past"
The command came across Chishan's CommsNet, "Set autopilot for the Sosala system." Patching the coordinates into her powerful new Hurricane's NavCom, she grinned. "The Bleak Lands... this is going to be interesting." Chishan cycled the Battlecruisers engines up to top speed, aligning to the first gate in the line to their destination, while waiting for the order to move out she put her offensive and defensive systems through another integration check. As the telltales flashed through her immediate conciousness, she pulled her camera drone back from the Hurricane, revealing the fleet Ushra'Khan had mustered at the request of Muritor Karishol. A wild joy filled her heart at the sight of it. Come what may, we will leave our mark with this force.
"... Kinda'Shuja has bought us the time! Warp to optimal and engage Primary!" Chishan's will responded to Fleet Commands order, her ship slipping into the warp that will see the end of this engagement. A harmonic thrum, barely acknowledged by her subconcious, travelled the length of the Hurricane's hull, signaling the return to normal space. Dropping out of warp, the order for the primary target was passed through the Ushra'Khan FTL BattComms. Space itself seemed to tear itself apart from the violence unleashed upon the Amarr navy...
"... the stations shields are failing! Keep it up warriors, this day will long stick in the side of the Empire!" Isolated explosions began to rock the Amarr Battlestation, blooming across the surface, joining into one great conflagration that was itself shattered by massive secondary explosions from within the golden hulk. Chishan had never felt more alive, and a measure of redemption, a payment to a debt unpayable is made. For this, Chishan owes Karishal Muritor. Another debt that can never be repaid. He made this possible.
Her fist clenched a final time, and her thoughts turned to the Republic. She wasn't surprised by the assassination as Ex -Republic Intelligence. What shocked her was the cold use of Muritor's trust and honor against him. A new low from a Republic she no longer could recognize. The price to be paid for this brutal act will test us all, Chishan feared.
At this thought, the diminutive pilot rose from the shadows and made her way to the Unity Station docking bay, where she would make her preparations to face a jouney into darkness. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24,000 bytes.Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip |
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:44:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Sapphrine
I think i've made it fairly clear. Midular's actions exceeded her role as a head of state. Assassinating your people even if they are ones you brand as traitors might well be the barbarism of the Amarr but is not at the core of the Minmatar.
I am angry at Midular for betraying the Republic. The Republic is meant to represent the people and the people do not wish to see their brethren enslaved. There may well have been a case long ago for not waging a war to free the rest of the Minmatar people from the Amarrian because we would not have one at the time.... that is not longer the case. Midular is a coward who would rather live with the power she already holds and not ACT to SAVE the rest of the people.
The republic is known among my tribe for killing our people. Republic agents send pilots on missions all the time to exterminate thukker blood. The Republic has no care for Matari, they only care for "thos matari within the republic" as is well evident by the actions taken thus far.
As soon as people start to realize the republic does not stand for ALL matari people we will all be better off as we can start to reconcile what needs to be reconciled and put the Amarr in thier place.
Please people, open your eyes, the Republic is not a function for Matari people, it is only a function for Republicans. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:46:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 03/02/2007 21:53:37 The Republic indeed does not speak for or act for the Thukker, but that is a Thukker choice, not the Republic's. Your tribe decided to stay out, as did the Nefantar (if for different reason...)
And no, true loyalists have no problems with Matari living outside of the Republic. By all means. Go, leave, fight your own petty wars and call doom on yourselves.
But do not betray your oaths to us, do not steal our property, and do not threaten us in the process. And do not come crying back home when the world treats you badly.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Butcher el'Hek
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:05:00 -
[93]
Home!
I will return home when there is a society present that does not sit back whilst there is a cure for the Vitoc method within reach.
I will return home when there is honorable leadership in place rather than a cold blooded murderering *****.
Butcher.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:14:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Butcher el'Hek I will return home when there is honorable leadership in place rather than a cold blooded murderering *****.
I have no quarrel whatsoever with that.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:19:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Popsikle on 03/02/2007 22:16:05
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 03/02/2007 21:53:37 The Republic indeed does not speak for or act for the Thukker, but that is a Thukker choice, not the Republic's. Your tribe decided to stay out, as did the Nefantar (if for different reason...)
Its the same old argument else, and I should know better then to provoke you here, as I have done hundreds of times in the past, but im going to anyway...
Yes, it is our tribes choice that we get shot by pilots running missions for Republic Agents. I fully admit it, we pay them to shoot our Kin......
* rolls her eyes
The Republic is actively seeking out and destroying Thukker blood. The Republic is inactive in saving the blood of ALL TRIBES that are enslaved.
The Republic obviously has no cares about a huge portion of Matari be it Thukker or Enslaved because it can watch/order thier blood spilled.
The Republic does not stand for Matari, it stands for itself only, a political entity . Not the will or life of the Matari.
That is all I will say on this subject, and you may respond but I will not argue with you about this any longer, on this medium anyway. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:52:00 -
[96]
Yea yea and the Thukker are doing the same for Republic people. Neither of us likes the situation, and we both know all the arguments... Let's just pretend we did it once more already, and drop it here?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:41:00 -
[97]
Elsebeth, somewhere in this dialogue I recall requests that an investigation of Midular's activity take place. Who would you have run such an investigation given Midular's position and the suspected corruption and cronyism? Who do you feel has the power to run such an investigation?
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Shira d'Radonis
Amarr Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:57:00 -
[98]
The Republic is only capable of doing so much... the government can provide for the people who live under it, or it can take a huge risk and make war to save those who are not living under it. Even if the Republic forces were strong enough to succeed in that goal, the lives of the people in the Republic would suffer from the strain of supporting a massive war effort.
So who is the Republic to defend? Those they can definitely protect or those who they might be able to save? Should they risk the lives of the countless numbers of people within their borders in order to try to save those still in slavery? Is the risk worth the cost of failure? The chance of success is too small. More likely some or even all of the Republic will just come under Amarrian occupation again, and if not that, it will be a stalemate in which millions will suffer and die. -----------------------------------------------
ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
"Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.04 02:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Shira d'Radonis
The Republic is only capable of doing so much... the government can provide for the people who live under it, or it can take a huge risk and make war to save those who are not living under it. Even if the Republic forces were strong enough to succeed in that goal, the lives of the people in the Republic would suffer from the strain of supporting a massive war effort.
So who is the Republic to defend? Those they can definitely protect or those who they might be able to save? Should they risk the lives of the countless numbers of people within their borders in order to try to save those still in slavery? Is the risk worth the cost of failure? The chance of success is too small. More likely some or even all of the Republic will just come under Amarrian occupation again, and if not that, it will be a stalemate in which millions will suffer and die.
So what interest would the republic have to seek out and murder the one who is taking the risk for them? How does that serve/protect any Matari people? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 05:51:00 -
[100]
"When evil is allowed to exercise its influence unchecked, good people, with the potential to do great things, will fall into the valley of shadow from whence there is no returning. Acts of cowardice, perpetrated by wardens of such evil, are to be condemned now as ever."
These are the words of Prime Minister Karin Midular. She made this statement after the targeted killing of Emperor Doriam II. A strike at the slavers that they are still yet to recover from.
It is sadly ironic that the leader of the Republic should feel so strongly about one dead slaver yet not hesitate to have a hero of the Matari people slain in cold blood. Karishal was a good man. He did great things and in time could well have been the saviour of our people that we have so long hoped for. It was his trust in Republican honour that let him into that valley of shadows where their assassins fell upon him. An act of cowardice perpetuated by agents of a corrupt leadership.
This leadership must stand down. For the good of the Republic, for the good of the tribes and for the future of the Matari people.
If you wish to see our people free rise now. If you wish to see the Republic made strong then raise your voices now and call for elections. If you want to see an end to the slaver raids then darken the skies of Pator with ships and demand action from your leaders. You have 19 days in which to act.
If you are content to live in a weak Republic. If you are happy to wait quietly in line for your glaive collars to be fitted. If you wish only to appease the slavers. Do nothing.
I urge you Brothers and Sisters to rise now. Take action now. Let the Children of Matar raise their voices as one and shake the very stars with our roar.
>> RECRUITING << |
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:36:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 10:41:04
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Aodha Khan
If you decided that your council was not acting the way you wanted it to and you stole from them before leaving. I'm have no doubt the U'K council would put you on KOS.
That is where you are wrong. Clearly your time as a blood drinker and pirate bring everything back to isk.
The means were justified by the ends. All you care about is stolen property and isk. It is a shame, I remember when you used to be a Matari who cared about something more than possessions.
Clearly, your time away from Matari space you have forgotten tribal customs and culture. This is nothing to do with ISK and everything to do with honour and tribal values where stealing and murder are not honourable acts.
As an ex-council member of Ushra'Khan knowing that Ushra'Khan members will gladly steal from their own kind if they dislike their councils decisions fill me with great sadness.
Stealing from and murdering your own kin are not acceptable. Your arguments in favour of this will not change that fact, there is no compromise.
I back the call from Telemicus for elections to take place so our people may have a voice.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:57:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Sapphrine
I think i've made it fairly clear. Midular's actions exceeded her role as a head of state. Assassinating your people even if they are ones you brand as traitors might well be the barbarism of the Amarr but is not at the core of the Minmatar.
And it's ok for the Ushra'Khan to call for the same? Oh, the hypocrisy.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:59:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 11:02:43
Originally by: Sapphrine Elsebeth, somewhere in this dialogue I recall requests that an investigation of Midular's activity take place. Who would you have run such an investigation given Midular's position and the suspected corruption and cronyism? Who do you feel has the power to run such an investigation?
It is hardly my place to say, but since you ask, I guess I can speculate some. ;)
If there is to be an investigation specifically on the (possible) death of Karishal Muritor, it seems to me that firstly we'd need clarification from the Fleet as to where this order came from, why they chose to carry it out, and most importantly, their understanding on the clone situation of Muritor's. You scream for Midular's blood here, but the recordings I have seen speak of orders from the Fleet command, not from the prime minister herself. To start the investigation from her doings sounds a bit premature at this point. I would prefer a public statement on the operation from the Fleet before going any further with the aftermath of Karishal's death. (*)
For a general investigation board on alleged corruption of the government, if one is needed, I would gather one from the elders of the four tribes. The prime minister herself naturally being unable to sit on such a board, as the representatives of the Sebiestor Tribe I would suggest maybe the IntSec Commander Surefgen Dalanard or the Legal Principal Clerk Ewlang Eode, though of course that would absolutely not be my call and I am sure there are many tribe members capable of such work the names of whom I do not even know. I am afraid I do not consider myself knowledgable enough to even start suggesting representatives of other tribes. (**)
I would also like to add that for such a board to do its work, hostilities by members of the four tribes against the Republic and its current assigned leader would have to be brought down. No such investigation can reliably take place under circumstances of civil war.
(*) Mind you, I am not personally one hundred percent sure there is anything to investigate. Karishal Muritor was a traitor and a thief to the Fleet, and they took him down. Apart from the political implications - stemming from the fact that it was the bloody Fleet and a hero of the people and not just any pilot corporation and a random corp thief - it seems like a clear-cut case for me, and business as usual among pod pilots. A public statement from Admiral Filmir and/or the Fleet Command would help in assessing the case, of course.
(**) http://www.eve-online.com/corporations/c_1000046.asp -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:00:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Popsikle
So what interest would the republic have to seek out and murder the one who is taking the risk for them?
There is clearly no evidence that Muritor was murdered at this point.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:07:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Aodha Khan
Originally by: Popsikle
So what interest would the republic have to seek out and murder the one who is taking the risk for them?
There is clearly no evidence that Muritor was murdered at this point.
Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register.
No, no evidence at all. Did the Amarr tell you to say that or did you have some sort of cloning malfunction?
>> RECRUITING << |
Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:20:00 -
[106]
This is what happens when governments elect leaders who are not worthy of the power.
The Republic must act soon if its pyramid is not to come crashing down under the weight of the decaying pinacle.
My condolences to the rebel's family and coleagues.
"But here is the smell of the blood still and all the perfumes of Khanid will not sweeten this little rose" |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:28:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity.
There's numerous eye-witnesses to my deaths and 14 bodies, the locations of which I have no clue of. I am still alive, thank you very much.
[qutoe]Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register.
Expecting the Fleet to keep him active in the current situation is a bit steep, too.
Quote: No, no evidence at all.
Some reason to suspect he might be dead, yes. Some reason to assume he is as good as dead as in he will never fly with any of us again, yes. Evidence for actual permanent death - no.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:38:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:36:51 Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:35:46
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register.
All if which do not prove he is dead. Funny enough, I destroyed the pod of one of the Nefantar who has been flying around Matari space the last weeks. I even have his body at our HQ and he came back the next day in a new clone. Based on your twisted logic he should be dead.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Butcher el'Hek
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:48:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Butcher el''Hek on 04/02/2007 11:45:33 He is dead, just like the good Dr's wife your fiends sucked the blood from. Gone forever.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 12:09:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:39:38
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register.
All if which do not prove he is dead. Funny enough, I destroyed the pod of one of the Ammatar who has been flying around Matari space attacking innocent Matari the last weeks. I even have his body at our HQ and he came back the next day in a new clone. Based on your twisted logic he should be dead.
We know karishal refused the use of our cloning facilities. I have no reason to believe he ever set foot inside a pod. I'm not sure he was even trained for them. A conventional escape pod and a Jovian pod are vastly different things. You understand of course that without the Jovian pod interface the mind scan required for cloning is not possible.
As for the pilot registry showing him as dead. Those records are kept by Concord, not the Republic Fleet.
This is not an exercise of logic. Karishal Muritor is dead. You Republicans are as bad as the Amarr. You would argue that stars are cold.
>> RECRUITING << |
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Padaxes
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 12:14:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Padaxes on 04/02/2007 12:11:13 Thrace beat me to it.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 12:19:00 -
[112]
Personally I find calling Aodha Khan a Republican hilarious. Not that I'd object to him being one, but I am not sure he finds it the compliment that I do.
I, for one, do not argue that Karishal Muritor is not dead. I just say that based on the evidence, there is a possibility he is not - but I'd also like to point out that whether or not he is is not really relevant to the matters at hand.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 12:20:00 -
[113]
All this picking at little strands and minute details from the pro-republic side makes me sick. So this is what it comes to? Elsebeth, you have the logs and it is clear as day from them alone that he was killed and not expected to return in clone form. There is more logic to argue against him having a clone than not and still you and yours insist on persuing this spin angle. Simply because you cannot admit that this was execution by design, disguised as an arrest attempt by one of Muritors trusted friends who has shown himself to have as much honour as a Nefantar pick pocket.
Ahoda, you of all people should not be condeming people as traitors and decreeing what they do and don't deserve or what is and is not right. You are lucky that you have been let back into the fold by people like NTMZ after the kinds of people you have consorted with over the last year or so. Pirates and Blood Raiders. Honourless dogs and blood drinking delusionals who are as bad as slavers. Don't even presume to think you can stand in judgment over anyone else here when you yourself have been given a chance to make another start in Matari society.
All of you that see this as a good thing, or at the very least something that should be defended when taking everything into account, sicken me to the pit of my stomach. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 12:34:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 12:32:49
Originally by: Darius Shakor Simply because you cannot admit that this was execution by design, disguised as an arrest attempt by one of Muritors trusted friends who has shown himself to have as much honour as a Nefantar pick pocket.
How I read the recordings that I have is Filmir and Muritor tried to persuade each other to come peacably to the others' side, and when that failed, Filmir executed an order by Fleet command to fire. They both seem to have assumed they will not meet again after that.
Execution by design is a bit exaggerated, but my estimate based on current events is that YES, the Fleet, including Admiral Filmir, moved in an effort to arrest Karishal Muritor and fully prepared to destroy him if - or when - he refuses. There possibly was a trap involved - Karishal Muritor seems to have trusted Admiral Filmir not to fire - but I have seen no evidence for an actual lie by Filmir to Muritor. We all lay traps in our daily battles...
I would like to read the Fleet's statement on the matter, of course, but since we do not have that, that is the truth I see and work from.
I have no trouble admitting that. I fully believe the Fleet had the right to execute Karishal Muritor after his treason and after he had repeatedly refused a trial. Whether I agree on the method and the timing I am not so sure about, but I lack information that the Fleet has about the reasoning behind it, so I will not start to act as a judge.
Now, as to what prompted Muritor's treason in the first place, that is a good question. If the Fleet's own officers are ready for such extremes, it is obvious something is failing. Maybe it is merely that the government assumes its officers and pilots are cleverer than they are and can understand the wider political pictures without explanations - but even such an assumption is a mistake where it is so obviously false.
A good question, but again one not relevant to the matters at hand.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Tar Kovsky
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 14:06:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon There possibly was a trap involved - Karishal Muritor seems to have trusted Admiral Filmir not to fire - but I have seen no evidence for an actual lie by Filmir to Muritor.
They had agreed to meet alone in relatively neutral space. Muritor abided by this agreement, Filmir did not. This is blatantly dishonorable behavior on the part of the Admiral, for which I have no respect even if he was "just following orders".
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 14:18:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Tar Kovsky
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon There possibly was a trap involved - Karishal Muritor seems to have trusted Admiral Filmir not to fire - but I have seen no evidence for an actual lie by Filmir to Muritor.
They had agreed to meet alone in relatively neutral space. Muritor abided by this agreement, Filmir did not. This is blatantly dishonorable behavior on the part of the Admiral, for which I have no respect even if he was "just following orders".
Some people feel all traps are dishonorable, some people feel you can betray your word on a 1-on-1 if it serves the purpose.
I am somewhere in the middle ground, myself.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 15:15:00 -
[117]
Yes we have seen how you like to sit on the fence, perched like some bird of prey. One of these days you might have to pick a side though. Until then I do hope that the Amarr don't decide to knock that fence out from under your claw-like feet. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 15:19:00 -
[118]
Oh, rest assured, Darius Shakor, I have picked my side long ago, and I will hold to my oaths till death.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Haceldema
Minmatar Uberfiend Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 15:46:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 04/02/2007 11:39:38
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Aside from numerous eyewitnesses. A very dead body laying in state at Unity. Republic Fleet Records and Karishal's listing and 'Inactive' on the pilot register.
All if which do not prove he is dead. Funny enough, I destroyed the pod of one of the Ammatar who has been flying around Matari space attacking innocent Matari the last weeks. I even have his body at our HQ and he came back the next day in a new clone. Based on your twisted logic he should be dead.
We know karishal refused the use of our cloning facilities. I have no reason to believe he ever set foot inside a pod. I'm not sure he was even trained for them. A conventional escape pod and a Jovian pod are vastly different things. You understand of course that without the Jovian pod interface the mind scan required for cloning is not possible.
As for the pilot registry showing him as dead. Those records are kept by Concord, not the Republic Fleet.
This is not an exercise of logic. Karishal Muritor is dead. You Republicans are as bad as the Amarr. You would argue that stars are cold.
Originally by: Tart Kovsky
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
To the best of our knowledge Karishal had no clone or for reasons unknown it failed to activate.
Unity Station management asked the Captain several times to move his clone to 9UY4-H, but he demurred, saying that the people to whom his clone were currently entrusted were of unimpeachable integrity.
Did the captain himself not say to Ushra'Khan that his clone is safe? Something smells here and i'm still not sure what....
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.04 15:56:00 -
[120]
I see Midular has instructed her regieme enforcers Namtz'aar k'in to discredit Muritor where possible. It is interesting to see who the real enemies are here. The ones nitpicking over transcripts and sullying the honour of others who actually had a spine strong enough to stand for their people, or Namtz'aar k'in who stand for their wallets.
The Republic is truely sending their finest assassins after us.
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.04 16:33:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Nekumi on 04/02/2007 16:29:55
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Oh, rest assured, Darius Shakor, I have picked my side long ago, and I will hold to my oaths till death.
How far will the Republic go before you or any of your allies will look at what is happening to what may once have been a noble ideal?
You are betrayed Namtz'aar k'in and it was not by Muritar or Ushra'Khan, the sooner you realise that the sooner this madness will end.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 16:53:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 16:50:04
Originally by: Nekumi You are betrayed Namtz'aar k'in and it was not by Muritar or Ushra'Khan, the sooner you realise that the sooner this madness will end.
Again, I am not speaking here as a representative of Namz'aar K'in. I am speaking as a private citizen of the Republic. Many in the alliance do not share my views, and the alliance as a whole is not a Republic supporter.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.04 17:00:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Hakera I see Midular has instructed her regieme enforcers Namtz'aar k'in to discredit Muritor where possible. It is interesting to see who the real enemies are here. The ones nitpicking over transcripts and sullying the honour of others who actually had a spine strong enough to stand for their people, or Namtz'aar k'in who stand for their wallets.
The Republic is truely sending their finest assassins after us.
That was not needed. Namtz has quite a few non-republic supported in it, however the outspoken ones always seem to be pro-republic. IT might so happen that the ones here are pro-republic I know for a fact quite a few of them in some of the highest positions that have the same ideals as most of UK in regards to the Republic. As a council member of Namtz for almost a year, I know I did.
Blanketing people is a method of the Amarr, not us, keep your assumptions to yourself.
__________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 17:07:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Haceldema
Did the captain himself not say to Ushra'Khan that his clone is safe? Something smells here and i'm still not sure what....
Indeed.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.04 17:45:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 17:09:37
Originally by: Nekumi You are betrayed Namtz'aar k'in and it was not by Muritar or Ushra'Khan, the sooner you realise that the sooner this madness will end.
Originally by: Hakera I see Midular has instructed her regieme enforcers Namtz'aar k'in to discredit Muritor where possible.
Again, I am not speaking here as a representative of Namz'aar K'in. I am speaking as a private citizen of the Republic. Many in the alliance do not share my views, and the alliance as a whole, while pro-Matari, is not a Republic supporter.
Also, I have not once during my piloting career been in direct contact with the Prime Minister or received any orders from her, direct or undirect, concerning this or any other matter, outside of public news pieces and bulletins.
Let's stick to the facts, ok?
Let's clarify those facts then, shall we?
Do you speak for Namtz'arr k'in in the capacity as diplomatic envoy?
Do you Elsebeth Rhiannon, condone and support the Republic actions in the matter of Muritor's assassination?
Do Namtz'arr k'in condone and support the actions of the Republic in the matter of Muritor's assassination?
Are Namtz'arr k'in willing to go to war against their own people in defense of the Republic?
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.04 17:54:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 04/02/2007 17:51:53
Originally by: Nekumi Let's clarify those facts then, shall we?
Ok.
Quote: Do you speak for Namtz'arr k'in in the capacity as diplomatic envoy?
No. For NMTZ diplomatic contact, talk to Cz Ire, Xhanserbal, or Pacal Balan.
Quote: Do you Elsebeth Rhiannon, condone and support the Republic actions in the matter of Muritor's assassination?
In general, I recognize the Fleet's right to try and stop the traitor Karishal Muritor, if necessary by force. Whether I agree with the method and the timing of the particular act, I cannot at this point comment for certain; I would prefer to wait and see if there is a Fleet official statement on the circumstances of the event before making up my mind.
Quote: Do Namtz'arr k'in condone and support the actions of the Republic in the matter of Muritor's assassination?
No.
Quote: Are Namtz'arr k'in willing to go to war against their own people in defense of the Republic?
Unknown to me at this point. I would put my money on "no".
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 00:53:00 -
[127]
By the time the first termite sees the light of day the beam has already been lost. This rot has been festering in the Republic for far too long and it runs far too deep.
There is one man who has both the power to remove this decay and the trust of all who fight for the freedom of our people.
Malaetu Shakor, we call upon you now. Dig out this rot, expose the truth behind this crime against our people. You who are born of the Defiants, you who are blinded by the legacy of Amarrian experiments, you who have shaped our world. Help us now end this madness.
Surely you must see that now is the time to rise as one. Killing our bravest and strongest to please the Amarr is wrong beyond words.
Show us the road to victory and we will march it with you. Let us finish what the uprising began together as one people united.
I support Malaetu Shakor for Prime Minister. I urge the free people of the Republic to do the same. We have 18 days.
>> RECRUITING << |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 00:56:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 05/02/2007 00:53:37
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I support Malaetu Shakor for Prime Minister. I urge the free people of the Republic to do the same. We have 18 days.
So the line now is "select as you leader who I want, or else!"? How very supporter of freedom of you. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 02:04:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ...Is the line now is "select as our leader who I want, or else!"? How very defender of freedom of you....
I would like to see Malaetu Shakor as Prime Minister. I am not alone in this. I say call for elections.
I think the people should be free to decide who represents them. I think the people should be free to choose their leaders.
Or you can dictate that there should be no elections, that Midular is the unquestioned leader of the Republic and nobody has any say in that. But then it is no longer a Republic, it is a dictatorship and one that puts the interests of the Amarr Empire above those of the Matari.
Free and fair elections or a corrupt dictatorship. I say it is up to people to decide.
>> RECRUITING << |
Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 04:56:00 -
[130]
Do not call me 'an enforcer of Midular's government'. I do not entirely support her actions. And if she is as weak as you claim, then she does not have my support as leader. Come next election, she and the Sebestiors will not recieve my vote.
I believe that peace is the way to solve this. Show the world - the Amarr especially - that the Matari can solve disputes with words and not weapons.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
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Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 05:05:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 05/02/2007 01:00:15
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I support Malaetu Shakor for Prime Minister. I urge the free people of the Republic to do the same. We have 18 days.
What happens in 18 days, mm? Is the line now is "select as our leader who I want, or else!"? How very defender of freedom of you.
How very spinster of you to immediately insinuate that it is a threat when it simply continues a count down of 21 days for action. Don't try to twist this, the people see through these manipulations with ease.
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Sapphrine
Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 05:07:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Nachshon Do not call me 'an enforcer of Midular's government'. I do not entirely support her actions. And if she is as weak as you claim, then she does not have my support as leader. Come next election, she and the Sebestiors will not recieve my vote.
I believe that peace is the way to solve this. Show the world - the Amarr especially - that the Matari can solve disputes with words and not weapons.
yes indeed, show an enemy willing to take the minmatar people back by force that all they are capable of is using words instead of decisive action. That will really make them back off wont it!
Will you still be asking for peace when they come for your sons and daughters?
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Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 05:29:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Nachshon on 05/02/2007 05:27:29 If we enter a civil war, the Amarr will say that we are incapable of peaceful discourse, and will use this as an excuse to invade. Furthermore, we will be weak, and will probably lose.
And if they assume that our usage of words means we are weak, then they will be in for a nasty surprise. For when the Minmatar are united and strong, we are invincible.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
Chishan
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 08:24:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Chishan on 05/02/2007 08:22:50 Edited by: Chishan on 05/02/2007 08:21:22
Originally by: Nachshon Edited by: Nachshon on 05/02/2007 05:27:29 If we enter a civil war, the Amarr will say that we are incapable of peaceful discourse, and will use this as an excuse to invade. Furthermore, we will be weak, and will probably lose.
And if they assume that our usage of words means we are weak, then they will be in for a nasty surprise. For when the Minmatar are united and strong, we are invincible.
I see no need for civil war if Midular takes her responsibilities to the Republic seriously. If the people choose another, it is her duty to step aside. The only reason the people of the Republic would have to fear civil war is if Midular attempts to retain office against the will of the people. If the people demand that she steps aside, it is her duty to obey them.
Personally, I expect no such grace from the woman.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 09:42:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Chishan I see no need for civil war if Midular takes her responsibilities to the Republic seriously. The only reason the people of the Republic would have to fear civil war is if Midular attempts to retain office against the will of the people. If the people demand that she steps aside, it is her duty to obey them.
If the tribes do that, yes.
However, Ushra'Khan is not "the people" any more than Gradient is "the people".
I see nothing here again but "lead the country our way, or else!" And you see you see no reason for civil war?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 10:14:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Chishan I see no need for civil war if Midular takes her responsibilities to the Republic seriously. The only reason the people of the Republic would have to fear civil war is if Midular attempts to retain office against the will of the people. If the people demand that she steps aside, it is her duty to obey them.
If the tribes do that, yes.
However, Ushra'Khan is not "the people" any more than Gradient is "the people".
I see nothing here again but "lead the country our way, or else!" And you see you see no reason for civil war?
Everyday you sound more and more like an Amarrian. How many times do we have to say we are calling for elections. Elections in which the people will decide who leads them? Elections in which the Matari people can choose their own path freely.
The only people who would see a call for elections as a declaration of civil war are despots and dictators. War is the only way tyrants know how to deal with freedom.
It was the Republic that started hostilities. It was Midular's people that you are so quick to defend that started murdering their own. But of course, we are not the Matari people in your eyes, what are we? terrorists? escaped slaves? a contract waiting to be executed?
Not so long ago Namtz'aar k'in were here crying out for racial unity when Trinity Nova were contracted against them. Yet now here you are condoning and supporting the murder of Matari Freedom Fighters and your people dare to call us hypocrites.
>> RECRUITING << |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 10:28:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace The only people who would see a call for elections as a declaration of civil war are despots and dictators. War is the only way tyrants know how to deal with freedom.
Don't put words in my mouth, Thrace.
Calling for elections is not a threat. As I said elsewhere, in this current situation even I migh support any such peaceful call that I see.
However, I have not seen such a call, not from U'K officially or you personally. All I have seen is declaration of the current legal head of state as your number one enemy and some idle threats with various numbers of days and outcomes - your "select Malaetu Shakor, you have 18 days", Hakera's "we mourn for 9 days and then we fill the skies of Matar", and so forth.
If you want a call for elections, make one, make one that people can subscribe to, without these threats and ultimatums and veiled hints of dire consequences.
And at least until you have made that call and waited your designated number of days (as soon as you can decide what that number is) pull back that threat on our current legal head of state - you cannot believably at the same time speak of legal re-election and show that little respect for the current legally elected prime minister.
Quote: It was the Republic that started hostilities. It was Midular's people that you are so quick to defend that started murdering their own.
Taking down a known criminal who has refused to come peacably is not murder.
Quote: Not so long ago Namtz'aar k'in were here crying out for racial unity when Trinity Nova were contracted against them. Yet now here you are condoning and supporting the murder of Matari Freedom Fighters and your people dare to call us hypocrites.
For the thousandth time, Namtz'aar K'in as an alliance does not support the Fleet's actions.
What the **** are they doing to you in U'K, Thrace? You used to be able to keep your facts straight in politics and still do good PR. Now all you do is twist words and spew propaganda and veiled threats.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 10:38:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 05/02/2007 10:45:21
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Everyday you sound more and more like an Amarrian. How many times do we have to say we are calling for elections. Elections in which the people will decide who leads them? Elections in which the Matari people can choose their own path freely.
Your alliances initial announcement of a bounty payment for the murder of the Republics leader. Certainly not for peaceful elections. Many of your pilots even stated the time for peace is over. The Ushra'Khans methods are certainly not allowing the people of Matar to choose their own path freely.
Your the one sounding like an Amarrian, twisting and turning like a snake. Either that or your members cannot make their minds up. Do Ushra'Khan want elections or murder?
I'm glad we now appear to be getting somewhere and that elections would be a solution that could be acceptable to all parties.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Lowanaera
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.02.05 10:39:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
What the **** are they doing to you in U'K, Thrace? You used to be able to keep your facts straight in politics and still do good PR. Now all you do is twist words and spew propaganda and veiled threats.
Now you NMTZ see what it is like to be on the other end of Ushra'Khan's ham-fisted "diplomacy", the irony is not without amusement.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 11:34:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Telemicus Thrace on 05/02/2007 11:34:25 Edited by: Telemicus Thrace on 05/02/2007 11:31:18
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Calling for elections is not a threat. As I said elsewhere, in this current situation even I migh support any such peaceful call that I see.
However, I have not seen such a call, not from U'K officially or you personally....
I am used to this rubbish from slavers but the Republic I knew didn't choose to blatantly ignore quite so much. Lets try..
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace ..You believe in democracy? you believe in the representation of the tribes? Then call for an election immediately! Take to the streets, fill the skies over Matar with your ships, petition your elders for a motion of no confidence in Midular. Let us see the manner in which our brothers wish to be represented and let us see it now. You have three weeks to convince us that Matari blood has not become thin in the homeland...
Might want to check the date on that, 2007.02.02 10:29:00. Since then just to make sure only the blind or belligerent could miss it.....
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace ... We want re-elections. We also want justice.
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Chishan is quite right. I once served the Republic. In my opinion the Republic is a good system. I would like to see some changes.....It is time for new leadership. It is time for a new Republic. A Rebuplic for the people and of the people. All of them.
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
...We are calling for regime change. We are calling for elections. It is the Republicans sending out death squads and talking about civil war...You want a political solution? We demand Midular step down. We demand elections....
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace ...You are free Matari, made so by Freedom Fighters like Drupar & Karishal. Millions more of our kin are yet to be freed. Stand now and be counted, demand Republic Elections now...
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace ...This leadership must stand down. For the good of the Republic, for the good of the tribes and for the future of the Matari people.
If you wish to see our people free rise now. If you wish to see the Republic made strong then raise your voices now and call for elections. If you want to see an end to the slaver raids then darken the skies of Pator with ships and demand action from your leaders. You have 19 days in which to act...
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I would like to see Malaetu Shakor as Prime Minister. I am not alone in this. I say call for elections....Free and fair elections or a corrupt dictatorship. I say it is up to people to decide.
So, you didn’t see any of that? Really?
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ...…idle threats with various numbers of days and outcomes - your "select Malaetu Shakor, you have 18 days", Hakera's "we mourn for 9 days and then we fill the skies of Matar", and so forth.
How is that a threat? If we don’t set a deadline you Republican slackers will still be trying to tell us Karishal is not really dead 15 years from now and we will still be waiting. So Hakera plans a peaceful protest over the skies of Pator like we have done so many times before, now you consider it a threat?
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ...…your designated number of days (as soon as you can decide what that number is)
We published the deadline every day since the countdown started. I’ll remind you every day here on in. I know it appears to be getting smaller but that’s because it decrements by 1 every 24 hours.
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ...…Taking down a known criminal who has refused to come peacably is not murder…
Last I looked Midular has listed us freedom fighters all as criminals. So we should all share the same fate as Karishal then? Is that how you justify all your talk of civil war?
...
>> RECRUITING << |
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 11:36:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Telemicus Thrace on 05/02/2007 11:35:25
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ...…For the thousandth time, Namtz'aar K'in as an alliance does not support the Fleet's actions.
What the **** are they doing to you in U'K, Thrace? You used to be able to keep your facts straight…
That fence you sit on won’t support you forever. So I am lying am I. Prove then that anything I have said is falsehood.
Originally by: Aodha Khan …Many of your pilots even stated the time for peace is over. The Ushra'Khans methods are certainly not allowing the people of Matar to choose their own path freely.…
The time for peace is over. We must strike at the Empire and free our people. Instead the Republic talks of civil war or do you regard those as the same thing?
Elections, how is that not the Matari people choosing their own path freely?
Originally by: Aodha Khan …Do Ushra'Khan want elections or murder? …
We want elections. We also want justice for the assassination of Karishal Muritor. The head of the guilty party as tradition dictates. Or do you deny our ways?
Originally by: Aodha Khan …I'm glad we now appear to be getting somewhere and that elections would be a solution that could be acceptable to all parties.
Good, then call for them. Get everyone to call for them. We can but as outlaws under Midulars regime the Republic tends to ignore us. I am not even sure if we would get a vote.
>> RECRUITING << |
Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 12:00:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Chishan I see no need for civil war if Midular takes her responsibilities to the Republic seriously. The only reason the people of the Republic would have to fear civil war is if Midular attempts to retain office against the will of the people. If the people demand that she steps aside, it is her duty to obey them.
If the tribes do that, yes.
However, Ushra'Khan is not "the people" any more than Gradient is "the people".
I see nothing here again but "lead the country our way, or else!" And you see you see no reason for civil war?
The real question here you have never asked out loud is 'Does Midular represent the people?'
That is the more importan issue. That is why we are raising our voices. People will sit in a happy stupor in the Republic getting on with their plannet bound lives. They don't see what we see. So we have to raise our voices to let them see and decide for themselves. Of course this cannot be done without damning the Republic and its short sighted leader since that is, after all, our point of view we want people to see and decide if they agree on or not.
Thrace's, and by extension the Ushra'Khan's support of Malaetu Shakor is simply that. Support. We make no demands that it must be him exactly. This is a nomination simply because there is no point asking for a change if we have no ideas what that change must be. Makes sense now doesn't it.
Now try to stop spinning. I fear you will fall on your face sooner or later. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 12:13:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 05/02/2007 12:12:19
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
We want elections. We also want justice for the assassination of Karishal Muritor. The head of the guilty party as tradition dictates. Or do you deny our ways?
There has been no trial or investigation nor proof of Muritors death and you want someones head. These are your ways?
A thorough investigation into what happened is required before the killing starts, not before. If it turns out that Midular used her power and influence illegally then a call for no confidence can be decided by our elders. I suggest that it is time for an election anyway, due to the unrest with the current government.
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Good, then call for them. Get everyone to call for them.
I support any call to make these elections happen.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 12:23:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 05/02/2007 12:12:19
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
We want elections. We also want justice for the assassination of Karishal Muritor. The head of the guilty party as tradition dictates. Or do you deny our ways?
There has been no trial or investigation nor proof of Muritors death and you want someones head. These are your ways?
A thorough investigation into what happened is required before the killing starts, not before. If it turns out that Midular used her power and influence illegally then a call for no confidence can be decided by our elders. I suggest that it is time for an election anyway, due to the unrest with the current government.
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Good, then call for them. Get everyone to call for them.
I support any call to make these elections happen.
You know I thought I had repeated enough. Do I have to get the crayons out. Repeat...
Muritor. is. dead.
The Ushra'Khan were there when it happened, funnily enough we know who killed him and why.
I'll support the call of course for what it's worth but, and by the gods I hope this gets through, I'm an outlaw. I can't really walk into the Republic Parliment and exercise my rights.
I know the Republic is not used to action but someone step up to the plate.
>> RECRUITING << |
Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 12:36:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
You know I thought I had repeated enough. Do I have to get the crayons out. Repeat...
Muritor. is. dead.
Muritor admitted to having a clone somewhere safe to members of the Ushra'Khan. He was then podkilled. So he should be in his new clone, the location, who knows at this point.
Now, I'll make this is clear as I can for you, provide proof to show otherwise..
You can repeat it all you want, write it on your forehead if you wish, it doesn't mean it's true.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 12:54:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I'll support the call of course for what it's worth but, and by the gods I hope this gets through, I'm an outlaw. I can't really walk into the Republic Parliment and exercise my rights.
I don't know what drugs you use, Thrace, but I could sure use some of the same stuff.
What "this" gets through? I have still not seen anyone call for any election. I have asked for a statement from the Republic; whether we get it or not remains to be seen (and I have not seen you support that, by the way...)
Ushra'Khan has only threatened to open hostilities on the Republic.
Where is the movement to start the elections? Is all you can do threaten and then say "ok, if someone else does the actual job of achieving what we want, maybe we'll pull back the threats"?
For the record, I hold no authority in the Republic government other than that of a private citizen. I have no private connections, no favours high-up that I can pull. I cannot walk to the Republic parliament either, and make things happen.
If you want a public movement demanding elections, by gods, organize one! You can do it as well as I can, this talk about being an outlaw preventing it is nonsense. The Fleet does not shoot you if you enter Republic space.
(( And for the record, I find asking people to do something that requires CCP-level powers and then blaming them when they cannot to be cheap RP tactics. ;) )) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 13:24:00 -
[147]
((To discuss the finer points of this whole thing Else, lets not do it here. Here is much better.)) ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 13:54:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I'll support the call of course for what it's worth but, and by the gods I hope this gets through, I'm an outlaw. I can't really walk into the Republic Parliment and exercise my rights.
What "this" gets through?
The fact that I am an outlaw and can’t demand elections anymore than I can run for Emperor.
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I have still not seen anyone call for any election. I have asked for a statement from the Republic; whether we get it or not remains to be seen (and I have not seen you support that, by the way...)
No, nor have I. I take it the citizens of the Republic are either scared of the Fleet or they whole heartedly support killing those who fight to free our people. Why whould I sign any document stating loyalty to Midular and her Republic? Why would I ask them for instructions on what to do or how to server them?
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Ushra'Khan has only threatened to open hostilities on the Republic.
Where?
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Where is the movement to start the elections? Is all you can do threaten and then say "ok, if someone else does the actual job of achieving what we want, maybe we'll pull back the threats"?
For the record, I hold no authority in the Republic government other than that of a private citizen. I have no private connections, no favours high-up that I can pull. I cannot walk to the Republic parliament either, and make things happen.
If you want a public movement demanding elections, by gods, organize one! You can do it as well as I can, this talk about being an outlaw preventing it is nonsense. The Fleet does not shoot you if you enter Republic space.
The minimum you need to make a call for elections is to be a citizen of the Republic. I am not. I can dodge the slavers and the Fleet and demand anything I like in orbit over Pator but it will carry no weight.
Threats? Doing the job? We are the ones out here on the rim fighting to free our people while the Republic sends death squads for one of the finest commanders the cause has seen since the uprising.
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon (( And for the record, I find asking people to do something that requires CCP-level powers and then blaming them when they cannot to be cheap RP tactics. ;) ))
((We asked for the citizens of the Republic to call for elections. Is it really such a stretch to take that to mean every player who resides in the Republic and has at the very least a passing interest in RP? This was never addressed to NMTZ, who have repeatedly claimed not to support the Republic. It was not personally labelled “For the attention of Gradient c/o Elsebeth Rhiannon”. You decided it was and you took it upon yourself to rattle on for 5(?) pages before dismissing this as cheap RP. Nobody put a gun to your head and brought you to this thread. I find this comment insulting.
It does not take CCP intervention for anyone interested to stand up and protest or start calling for regime change. The interest and action of the players is of much importance in this as Event team involvement. If you will not call for elections that is your choice and you are responsible for that, that goes for everyone. If the Parliament denies that call, or more to the point CCP don’t want elections then of course no player is responsible. Players cannot force NPCs to act but they can decide where they stand. Can I blame anyone apart from CCP if there are no elections? Of course not, grow up. Can I blame you IC for supporting people that shot my IC friend? Damn straight I can.
This is an Event driven arc, Event staff are very much active in this. There is official involvement. Who knows, we may even get our elections. Then again we may not but I have said way more than I would have liked. I hate going OOC and I hate it when people involve themselves in my RP only to insult it. I expected more.))
>> RECRUITING << |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 14:37:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 05/02/2007 14:35:25
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Ushra'Khan has only threatened to open hostilities on the Republic.
Where?
Damn you for having me go through this nonsense once more, but here goes.
Bounty - Karin Midular - Dead or Alive - the topic of that thread says quite a lot already, but let me quote from it to you:
Originally by: "Maggot" the leader of the Minmatar Republic, Karin Midular, has been declared the number one enemy of the Ushra'khan.
Karin Midular is the legal head of state of the Minmatar Republic.
Originally by: "Spiderweb" Please remove your 8.24 standing with me from your treacherous Republic Fleet villains. Its a stain on my history now. I have set all your drones of hypocricy and treachery to -5 and now you will face the concequences of the death of my warrior Brother.
I doubt those consequences mean a stern talking-to.
Originally by: "Hakera" Our traditions allow for nine days of mourning. When that ends, the skies above Matar will fill with the song of the rightous. We are coming home to put our house in order.
If that is your idea of a call for peaceful demonstration, you have indeed changed a lot...
Originally by: "Forty Three" I fully support Admiral Maggot's reaction in this... Down with Midular!!!
Mind you Maggot's reaction was not a peaceful call for re-election.
Originally by: "Cipher7" If the Republic is just going to become a surrogate of the Empire, then what exactly are you supporting?
Either look after the People. Or the People will look after themselves, by any means necessary.
Emphasis from the original.
Originally by: "Hakera" Make no mistake when I say this, if the government are not removed from power and leadership restored to the tribes, measures will be taken which their assassins & puppets will not be able to cover up what is coming.
Decide quickly where you stand.
That is not a threat?
And, as a final quote:
Quote: "I swear to support and defend the Minmatar Republic, its people, policies, holdings, and agents, its sovereignty and the integrity of its territory against all enemies and usurpers, foreign and domestic."
This is the oath I have taken.
I am sorry if I misread the intent of the U'K.
If so, it should be a simple matter to clarify, taking only a short official statement from your council - something to the effect that only peaceful means of demonstration will be taken at this time, and that indeed contrary to the first statement, the Empire and not your kin still is your primary enemy.
Other than that, I do not think this argument is going anywhere. I will drop the subject for now and hope everyone sees the light - in both Ushra'Khan and my government - before this goes too far.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.05 16:30:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Merdaneth on 05/02/2007 16:30:08 I am sad.
Not because Muritor was slain. He was a terrorist, a thief and a traitor. He knew that he broke the law, he knew what the risks were, and he willingly chose to continue with his course of action. The Republic did nothing more than uphold the law.
Make no mistake, Muritor could have easily followed the path of honor: resign from Republic Fleet, renounce his citizenship and join one of the terrorist organizations and fight for his vision of the future with them. I have no doubt they would have welcomed him.
But Muritor did not. He was arrogant, he thought his vision was better than anyone else, and certainly better than those of his superiors. So he started a personal vendetta, squandering the trust others had placed in him. His vision of the future did not include things like loyalty, sacrifice, honor, truth and fellowship.
I am sad because Ushra'Khan uses his death to push forward their own agenda. To have them call out for new elections is laughable. They have never submitted themselves to Republic law before. Any election result that did not favor them, they would simply cast aside, claiming the fight for freedom comes from a higher authority.
I am sad because the Minmatar are slowly regressing back towards aggressive tribes they once were, more concerned with pointless struggles and barbaric forms of justice than true advancement.
I am sad because this is partially our fault. We should have been stronger, not so trusting. We should have prevented the rebellion. We let our children out into the world before they were ready, and now many who ran away from home have fallen in with a bad crowd and turned to a life of crime and depravity.
I am sad because the Ushra'Khan now consider themselves judges, jury and executioners. Their jurisdiction extending beyond the Amarr, but now including anyone they don't agree with. Do you even know those you call ¦our people¦ anymore? Don't you have any respect left for authority and the rule of law?
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Chishan
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 17:19:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Chishan I see no need for civil war if Midular takes her responsibilities to the Republic seriously. The only reason the people of the Republic would have to fear civil war is if Midular attempts to retain office against the will of the people. If the people demand that she steps aside, it is her duty to obey them.
If the tribes do that, yes.
However, Ushra'Khan is not "the people" any more than Gradient is "the people".
I see nothing here again but "lead the country our way, or else!" And you see you see no reason for civil war?
Continue to twist my words to your own meaning and I will call for Hamat'Kuri between us. I cannont speak plainer or more peacefully than I have, yet you still try to paint my words with blood. No where have I ever stated that Ushra'Khan or Masuat'aa Matari is "the people." The Republic is the only one calling "our way or civil war."
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 17:23:00 -
[152]
My apologies, I have not meant to twist anything.
Could you point me to where the Republic calls for "our way or civil war"?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Chishan
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 17:49:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon My apologies, I have not meant to twist anything.
Could you point me to where the Republic calls for "our way or civil war"?
By sending Death Squads after a Matari leader. By executing him before our very eyes. By telling us to "watch and learn" as the Republic butchered Muritor. Never forget that we drew no blood that day, even though we considered Muritor under our protection.
We aren't the aggressors in this situation, no matter how you try to turn Maggot's symbolic gesture, Hakera's emotional pain and call for change, Thrace's evenhandedness, or Muritor's sacrifice.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 18:11:00 -
[154]
Karishal Muritor was a traitor and a thief to the Fleet. He was offered to chance to come home for a trial and refused it. The Fleet had full authority to bring him down and kill him.
I would like to point out to you that the Fleet did not fire on Ushra'Khan when they took down the traitor, and neither have they ever in any other instance pursued you in the Republic space or out of it. Very obviously it is not their way or civil war, there; if it was, you would have Fleet ships on siege of Unity and firing on Ushra'Khan ships that enter the Republic space.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 18:11:00 -
[155]
Karishal Muritor was a traitor and a thief to the Fleet. He was offered to chance to come home for a trial and refused it. The Fleet had full authority to bring him down and kill him.
I would like to point out to you that the Fleet did not fire on Ushra'Khan when they took down the traitor, and neither have they ever in any other instance pursued you in the Republic space or out of it. Very obviously it is not their way or civil war, there; if it was, you would have Fleet ships on siege of Unity and firing on Ushra'Khan ships that enter the Republic space.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Chishan
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 18:35:00 -
[156]
Maybe you see the Republic as the sole Matari people. My view seems to be wider. When I speak of Matari, I speak of all of us. There are far more Matari outside the Republic than within.
Muritor joined the Fleet to free the Matari. Midular has tied the Fleets hands and left those enslaved to die in bondage, and furthermore has allowed border raids to go unchecked. Who is the true traitor here?
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Chishan
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 18:35:00 -
[157]
Maybe you see the Republic as the sole Matari people. My view seems to be wider. When I speak of Matari, I speak of all of us. There are far more Matari outside the Republic than within.
Muritor joined the Fleet to free the Matari. Midular has tied the Fleets hands and left those enslaved to die in bondage, and furthermore has allowed border raids to go unchecked. Who is the true traitor here?
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 19:03:00 -
[158]
We have been over this already.
Muritor did not leave the Republic like most separatists, resigning and renouncing his ties. He deserted his Fleet, broke his orders, and stole the Fleet's property. There is a difference.
This is the last time I repeat this. Get your facts straight before you start using big words like "traitor" and "the people". -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 20:07:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Karishal Muritor was a traitor and a thief to the Fleet. He was offered to chance to come home for a trial and refused it. The Fleet had full authority to bring him down and kill him.
You will burn witch. All you do is talk, cloud peoples minds with snaketongues in acts of desperation to protect your profits bought in the hollow peace you work hard to protect. Midular is pulling your strings well but she cannot hide behind her lackeys.
I warned you once, that your mission from Midular to dishonour the Defiants and the propaganda spewing from every one of your orifices would not be tolerated. They had the courage to act, all you have to courage to do is sit at your galnet screen spewing rubbish all day long about your glorious republic whilst counting the gold in your vaults.
You should of known your place. You have neither earned a seat at the table or permission to speak. Yet here you are preaching your Gallente democracy and worship of your queen. You are as much to blame as the Amarrians for our missing children. The only difference between the Amarr and you is they took them and you dont care about them. Just your precious peace and your profits.
Thankfully for the Matari, you are just a windbag who only the dimwitted and those paid to support you may listen to. You talk about action long after every Matari has picked up their sword and headed into the night. When the children stealers come, you form a committee to debate a peaceful resolution. You have forgotten the greatest laws of our people, all your precious Republic knows is to forsake the many for the few, to cut your losses and bury your heads in the sand and beg for the scraps from the empires table.
Damn you to the abyss witch.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 21:46:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Hakera You will burn witch. --- You should of known your place. You have neither earned a seat at the table or permission to speak.
And they say I sound like an Amarr, these days?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
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Masim
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 22:04:00 -
[161]
This is a personal statement and has nothing to do with my Republic, corporation or alliance.
I don't usually fall for personal insults, but this is enough.
Talking about poilitics and getting heated up is perfectly ok. Actively working against the best of the Republic, not as much so, but can still be understood. Personal attacks against someone who disagrees with you and happens to be my wife *are* not ok.
I will not give you a second warning, Hakera
---
Masim Rhiannon Personnel Manager Gradient
Help us defend the Republic, join Gradient today |
Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 22:32:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Masim Personal attacks against someone who disagrees with you and happens to be my wife *are* not ok.
Love is blind it is said. Gives you strength but also weakness. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and if you were not blind, you would see that.
Sleep well in your cosy tower.
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 22:32:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Masim Personal attacks against someone who disagrees with you and happens to be my wife *are* not ok.
Love is blind it is said. Gives you strength but also weakness. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and if you were not blind, you would see that.
Sleep well in your cosy tower.
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Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.05 23:31:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Merdaneth I am sad because Ushra'Khan uses his death to push forward their own agenda. To have them call out for new elections is laughable. They have never submitted themselves to Republic law before. Any election result that did not favor them, they would simply cast aside, claiming the fight for freedom comes from a higher authority.
We have never submitted ourselves to Amarr law either but we implore you in our own way to end your ways of slavery. What is your point?
Originally by: Merdaneth I am sad because the Minmatar are slowly regressing back towards aggressive tribes they once were, more concerned with pointless struggles and barbaric forms of justice than true advancement.
Amarrians idea of advancing other people involve orbital bombardmens, cultural genocide and forced servitude. Pretty violent traits you have there youself. Whats your point?
Originally by: Merdaneth I am sad because this is partially our fault. We should have been stronger, not so trusting. We should have prevented the rebellion. We let our children out into the world before they were ready, and now many who ran away from home have fallen in with a bad crowd and turned to a life of crime and depravity.
Yes this is partially your fault, but a little further back than you can see. You should have never invaded our people in the first place. No invasion, no rebellion, no people left behind, no inadiquate and complacant leaders, no fleet officers absconding with fleet equipment because of the injustice of the republic, no hit squads sent to murder him... anyway you get the point. The rebellion was inevitable anyway so you might as well have stayed at home anyway. So what is your point? Ohh yeah, it is all the fault of the Amarr.. we knew that already, what took you so long to figure it out?
Originally by: Merdaneth I am sad because the Ushra'Khan now consider themselves judges, jury and executioners. Their jurisdiction extending beyond the Amarr, but now including anyone they don't agree with. Do you even know those you call ¦our people¦ anymore? Don't you have any respect left for authority and the rule of law?
When missued? Kind of like the whole Amarr religion and philosophy is missused to enslave anything that does not conform with what you agree with? Midular missuses her authority over and over and nothing changes so, no I have no respect for that authority now. I should think that would be plainly obvious reading all of this so... whats your point? ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Wasabee Upp
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Posted - 2007.02.06 00:50:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Wasabee Upp on 06/02/2007 00:49:20 Edited by: Wasabee Upp on 06/02/2007 00:47:35 ((damn alts))
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Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.06 01:16:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Hakera *snip*
Disgusting.
Hakera, you have just forfeited your credibility.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
Lord Malis
Minmatar Dark Order Of Matar
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Posted - 2007.02.06 01:36:00 -
[167]
Yes, Yes. Do not let the words of the republic lackey's sway you brothers. Only through YOU the Ushra'khan can there be change. Only those who have been forged by fire have any right to lead the rabble. Do not wait for elections that will never come, if you desire change you must make it yourself. You have waited to long already for a weak and shameful republic to aid it people. OUT OF CHOAS WILL COME ORDER |
Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 01:38:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Nachshon
you have just forfeited your credibility.
I would rather lose credibility from a bunch of profit whoring miners and their harpy queen who only bark and never bite than see them sully the names of great men and women who have done so much for the Matari.
Do not talk to me of credibility when your harpy sits there and launches her campaign to discredit true heroes who made a difference. It is your harpy queen and her lackeys who instantly jump blindly to her support who disgust me.
You are the only ones who take stock in credibility, you worry so much about your appearances, about your little propaganda machines, you work hard to bury the truth, to bend it into something it is not. I am not afraid, I walk the dangerous path, where the greatest assassins come from behind with knives. With one hand they preach peace and with the other they plunge the knife into your back.
Dance to the organ grinders song. It suits you.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 01:45:00 -
[169]
"If you would stand before me and call this state of affairs in which we are held right and true, then I am sure that it is better for me and my men to fight and die without any right than to live in such a lie."
Karishal Muritor said that the day he officially left the service of the Republic. He and all who followed him were made outlaws that day by the Republic they fought so long for. They fought, they won glorious victories against the Amarr. Karishal now lies dead at the hands of a Republic death squad.
Is this state of affairs right and true? Judging by the reactions of those loyal to the Republic I feel that the consensus believes it to be. My heart tells me the silent voices feel otherwise.
What of the student population? Too young to have had the chance to vote for Midular. What do the members of the Pator Tech School, the Republic University or even the Republic Military School have to say? What of the countless mining corporations and shipyard operators around Rens and Abudban? Do you think this state of affairs is right and true?
Do you wish to sit in silence and let your leaders do the dirty work of the Amarr? Call for elections, call for equal representation of the tribes, call now for an end to this madness.
17 Days.
>> RECRUITING << |
Tar Kovsky
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 03:10:00 -
[170]
Let's be quite clear about the actions of the Defiants and of their leader, Karishal Muritor.
Towards the end of last year, we were asked to provide protection for a Defiant search team that was looking for Amarran "breeding facilities". What we found turned the stomachs of even the most hardened among us. CONCORD conveniently provided the words to describe these segments of hell, so that I don't have to.
Quote: This breeding facility produces Minmatar children ready to assume their place as servants to the Amarr. Once they reach puberty, the boys are sent away to take their place amongst the lower classes in Amarr society.
The girls, on the other hand, are left behind. Their place is here, stretched out on cold metal tables, silent and tense. The facility wears out its brood, but that's all right; more are created all the time.
And every now and then, a caravan will arrive, carrying men with cold eyes and clammy hands, ready and willing to help with the production.
This is what your precious Midular is willing to sacrifice in the name of peace. This is what these slavers are laughing about, when they commend you for your reasonableness. This will never stop until we make it stop by force.
This is what one man gave first his career -- and then his life -- to put an end to. I am privileged to have flown with him. There can be no compromise.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.06 06:46:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace "If you would stand before me and call this state of affairs in which we are held right and true, then I am sure that it is better for me and my men to fight and die without any right than to live in such a lie."
If you find someone calling this state "right and true" and meaning it, feel free to scorn that person. I, personally, call this state "getting ready".
Telemicus, perhaps you'll answer this question I posed in another thread: according to your analysis, does the Republic have a good chance of victory in an offensive war against the Amarr Empire, if led by someone you consider competent?
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace 17 Days.
Until what? -- NMTZ forum |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 06:59:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Telemicus, perhaps you'll answer this question I posed in another thread: according to your analysis, does the Republic have a good chance of victory in an offensive war against the Amarr Empire, if led by someone you consider competent?
Yes, of course. Especially when they are so fractured. The Chamberlin is no substitute for an Emperor. We have all seen the tensions within the Empire rise to open bloodshed between Holders.
This is one of the reasons they are so keen to foster civil war in the Republic by putting pressure on weak leaders like Midular. They seek to keep us distracted at least until they are ready to launch the invasion.
You have seen what Karishal managed with a small group of oficers and the support of rag tag freedom fighters. Imagine what a new Republic could do. A new Republic prepared to fight slavers. A new Republic in which all Matari, freedom fighters and Thukker alike can find a home. A truly united Republic fleet.
The Amar will not wait until you are ready. The time has come, to rise or fall.
>> RECRUITING << |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.06 11:13:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 06/02/2007 11:10:40
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Telemicus, perhaps you'll answer this question I posed in another thread: according to your analysis, does the Republic have a good chance of victory in an offensive war against the Amarr Empire, if led by someone you consider competent?
Yes, of course. Especially when they are so fractured. The Chamberlin is no substitute for an Emperor. We have all seen the tensions within the Empire rise to open bloodshed between Holders.
Yes, I agree that Republic does have a good chance against fractured Amarr.
Now then, what would unify the factions within Empire as nothing else? That's right, an invasion by the Republic.
The Empire is not going to pull itself together, it's on the route to dissolution. After this long a wait, the next emperor is almost certainly going to be a figurehead, being pulled this way and that by the political plays of the houses. It's not keeping up with the technological advances very well either: largest population by far, smallest number of pod pilots - and a very small number of those toe the official line.
When the dissolution gets a bit more advanced, trust the Empire to try to keep the edifice up by giving the people some external problem, that is, a war. However, _that_ future war, declared by Empire against the Republic, is winnable by the Republic, if we prepare for it properly.
First, Federation would support the Republic, which it would probably not do in an offensive war.
Second, a number of holders would keep on playing the game of houses, seeking personal advantage.
Third, the Republic would unify against the threat. No way you could get the same response to an offensive war.
It seems to me that Amarr are the only party whose interests would be served by Republic openly attacking the Empire.
... you do have reviewed your security procedures after the Hamish affair? -- NMTZ forum |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.06 12:18:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
The Empire is not going to pull itself together, it's on the route to dissolution. After this long a wait, the next emperor is almost certainly going to be a figurehead
Or vastly more likely one powerful and fanatical Holder will make a grab for power then occupy his competitors by calling for a new crusade of Reclamation.
You paint a pretty picture but if the Republic follows that path your people will blissfully unaware of the end until the sky is burned away again.
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
... you do have reviewed your security procedures after the Hamish affair?
My my. What an interesting subject to bring up. Of what interest are our security procedures to the Namtz'aar k'in? Why do you choose to raise the matter of the Hamish affair at this juncture?
In league with him are you? working for his backers? Oh how low has the Republic sunk.
>> RECRUITING << |
Gangus
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2007.02.06 13:29:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Masim Personal attacks against someone who disagrees with you and happens to be my wife *are* not ok.
this is a total divergence from this thread, but am i to understand from this, that it's no longer permitted to disagree with someone because they happen to be married? Thank The Good Lord that i'm not married.... i'd have to agree with everything she said...
Gangus Corp Idiot [MBB]
Never mess with a guy in an ugly ship. He's bitter and has nothing to lose. |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.06 18:08:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
The Empire is not going to pull itself together, it's on the route to dissolution. After this long a wait, the next emperor is almost certainly going to be a figurehead
Or vastly more likely one powerful and fanatical Holder will make a grab for power then occupy his competitors by calling for a new crusade of Reclamation.
You paint a pretty picture but if the Republic follows that path your people will blissfully unaware of the end until the sky is burned away again.
If someone could do that, that person would have done it already.
Oh well, for the sake of the argument, let's say that one pops up. Unified Empire with zero internal dissent attacking the Republic. I also have this map to Jove treasure planet I need to cash in, but I'll mail you about that separately.
Since you did not comment on the three points I laid out in the previous post, let's consider first and third to hold in this case as well - second is handled in the "zero internal dissent" above. To recap:
First, Federation would support the Republic, which it would probably not do in an offensive war.
(Second, a number of holders would keep on playing the game of houses, seeking personal advantage.)
Third, the Republic would unify against the threat. No way you could get the same response to an offensive war.
Given that, even that case is better than offensive war against Amarr now, no matter how competent the replaced admirality would be.
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
... you do have reviewed your security procedures after the Hamish affair?
My my. What an interesting subject to bring up. Of what interest are our security procedures to the Namtz'aar k'in? Why do you choose to raise the matter of the Hamish affair at this juncture?
In league with him are you? working for his backers? Oh how low has the Republic sunk.
Weak, Thrace, weak. -- NMTZ forum |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.07 09:39:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Telemicus Thrace on 07/02/2007 09:36:26 16 Days remain.
I see no call for elections. I see no condemnation of the murder of one our greatest freedom fighters. Is it any wonder so many of those we free choose to be migrants in the Federation. Things have changed in the Republic since I have been away. Either that or distance allows me to see more clearly.
Are there none of you left in the Republic with the heart to make it a better place? to re-ignite the beacon of hope it once was? Or have you all left her to dwindle under the leadership of those who will take up arms to prevent our people being freed?
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
... you do have reviewed your security procedures after the Hamish affair?
My my. What an interesting subject to bring up. Of what interest are our security procedures to the Namtz'aar k'in? Why do you choose to raise the matter of the Hamish affair at this juncture?
In league with him are you? working for his backers? Oh how low has the Republic sunk.
Weak, Thrace, weak.
Weak? if I sought to bring you harm you would about it through a declaration of war and an assault wing. Not some half arsed, thinly veiled threat of spies and corp theft.
>> RECRUITING << |
Masim
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.07 10:36:00 -
[178]
Thrace, distance has only clouded your vision.
If you would actually come to Matar and talk to the people, you'd know the majority supports the current leaders. You'd see things are improving daily. You'd see how many refugees and former slaves come in every day. The same is true on other settled planets in the Republic too.
It is very easy to shout from the outside and miss the truth.
As to your question, yes, there are countless pilots and citizens who work every day to make the Republic a beacon of hope. Not just for everyone in the Republic, but also for our people still in chains. We work daily to bring them all home to a strong Republic, we work to give them a home to be freed to.
There will be a time for open war with the Empire, but that time is not now. And for certain, the way to achieve that is not treason and stealing Fleet ships. I work everyday for the good of our people, yes all of them, and I do not want to see that work taken away by people who just can not see the big picture.
You used to be a good man, Thrace. In many ways you still are. Don't let all the work go to waste for short term gain.
---
Masim Rhiannon Personnel Manager Gradient
Help us defend the Republic, join Gradient today |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 13:12:00 -
[179]
Since you do not comment on my viewpoints on the non-desirability of an offensive war against the Empire, can I take it that you agree with them?
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Edited by: Telemicus Thrace on 07/02/2007 09:36:26
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
... you do have reviewed your security procedures after the Hamish affair?
My my. What an interesting subject to bring up. Of what interest are our security procedures to the Namtz'aar k'in? Why do you choose to raise the matter of the Hamish affair at this juncture?
In league with him are you? working for his backers? Oh how low has the Republic sunk.
Weak, Thrace, weak.
Weak? if I sought to bring you harm you would about it through a declaration of war and an assault wing. Not some half arsed, thinly veiled threat of spies and corp theft.
Can it really be that the Hamish incident has been buried by Ushra'Khan so deeply that even their council members do not know the truth? Or are you mixing him up with someone else?
The Hamish I was speaking about was the CEO and founder of Tribal Trust of Pator, founding member of both People's Republic of Minmatar and Ushra'Khan, trusted council member of Ushra'Khan, ardent detractor of Republic, and an Amarr agent. You'll excuse me if seeing Ushra'Khan striving for a war that is very much in the Empire's interests somehow reminds me of him. -- NMTZ forum |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.08 01:07:00 -
[180]
15 Days remain. If not a single voice in the Republic wishes to see elections then we can only assume you support Midular and the actions of the Republic against Matari freedom fighters.
I know some of you now consider leaving the Republic at this time. I urge you to reconsider. While you are still within the Republic you can call for elections and if they are granted have your voices heard. If after that time you are still disillusioned then leave. Of course the choice is yours and yours alone. Those who will stand against the night in the name of freedom are always welcome in our halls.
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Since you do not comment on my viewpoints on the non-desirability of an offensive war against the Empire, can I take it that you agree with them?
No, you cannot. I have presented my analysis here and previously in more detail. You analysis is directly opposed to mine. I do not agree with you, quite the opposite. I am suprised you need it spelled out.
Wait obediently for the slavers to come for you if you wish. If the Republic follows your analysis they doom themselves and everyone within their domain to slavery. But since everyone in the Republic appears to support this strategem I suppose they have brought it upon themselves.
Originally by: Theron Gyrow ....Can it really be that the Hamish incident has been buried by Ushra'Khan so deeply that even their council members do not know the truth? Or are you mixing him up with someone else?
The Hamish I was speaking about was the CEO and founder of Tribal Trust of Pator, founding member of both People's Republic of Minmatar and Ushra'Khan, trusted council member of Ushra'Khan, ardent detractor of Republic, and an Amarr agent. You'll excuse me if seeing Ushra'Khan striving for a war that is very much in the Empire's interests somehow reminds me of him.
Hahahaha. Oh, is that all you know. I am privy to a great many things boy, clearly more than you.
So that blundering was not a threat but a shambolic attempt to accuse us of being guided by an Amarr agent. We are here because the Republic has started killing freedom fighters. This is a reaction. If anything I would say the Republic has been infiltrated at it's highest levels. Some of the Defiants even mentioned Fleet personal acting strange "as if their minds were no longer their own." I just took it to be that they are following distasteful orders that they do not believe in but perhaps it is more than that.
>> RECRUITING << |
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Nihils Astari
Gallente Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.08 02:14:00 -
[181]
Intaki by birth, I do not claim to speak for the republic. I fly with Ushra'Khan because the Amarr need to be stopped. Slavery is wrong and no compromise should be made in stopping it. I say this without reference to any specific people. If anyone is enslaved, we are all lessened by it, especially if we are in any position to do something about it.
I have absolutely no quarrel with the Matari people. I have no quarrel with the Republic up to and until the day it collaborates with the Amarr slavery machine. Recent actions by the government, and its subsequent silence regarding these actions, suggests to me the possibility of such collaboration. I do not say it exists, as I have not seen the proof. But refusing to assist with the development of insorum, as well as the deceitful murder of Karishal Muritor (a true hero of the Matari people, no matter what else is said about the man), suggests there is something afoot other than the well-being of the Matari people, or the well-being of only Republic citizens.
The leaders I follow have placed a 1 ISK bounty on the head of Karin Midular. Stop acting as if that means we're coming to eat your babies. See it for what it is...a call for an understanding of what the hell is going on inside those closed doors. If Midular is the wonderful leader some claim she is, she has nothing to fear by communicating with her peers among the Republic government.
Ushra'Khan are freedom fighters. We fight slavers. We free slaves from the Amarr. We do not live within the republic for various reasons. Some seem to take issue with that. To me it is irrelevant as we do not claim to be part of the republic government.
I hope those who place their confidence with Midular are right. I hope she truly serves the republic and has no secret collusion with its enemies. But stop trying to paint us as your enemies, because if it turns out you're wrong, we'll be the ones risking our lives to free your children from the Amarr they've been sold to. We'll be the ones working to free them from the evils of vitoc. We'll be the ones taking in those who manage to flee their homes when the slave ships come.
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Karn Mithralia
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.08 06:00:00 -
[182]
Karn looks tired, worn, yet calm and, for the first time in days, at peace. He flicks thru the GalNet postings idly passing the time, keeping only a minor portion of his attention on his war coms. He pauses on one post and reads it again. He sighs, takes an uncharacteristic small swig of his spirits, and responds.
Originally by: Masim Don't let all the work go to waste for short term gain.
Short term gain?
Have you any idea what its like living out beyond the reach of Concord? Thrace came and lived among us before he made the choice to join us, and in doing so gave up much. There was no Unity Station then, only the dark cold steel of POS towers and their arrays.
Towers that are constantly hungry for fuel, in systems raided by greedy madmen and psychopaths who want nothing more than to ease their pain by bringing it down on others. Towers that if not fed are no more home than a cold 'roid, towers that bleed your wallet dry.
When construction on Unity began Thrace Inc threw their all into it, with no repayment or request of favour for their trouble. Have you seen what week after week of hauling tritanium does to a man?
Then Telemicus and his brothers joined the alliance and only added to their burdens. Now they were targets of all those who war against us, constantly, ceaselessly. There is nowhere entirely safe for us of the U'K in this wide 'verse. Their younger members became the prey of the Amarr paramilitaries who roam mostly un-molested aroung Heimatar. The rest prey to all who seek to claim our space.
I've seen my brother's clothes age on him for lack of isk to replace them. I've seen the affect of the loss of the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of lives of ship and POS crew has had on Tel, how quickly he's aged despite constant re-cloning.
I've seen his pod pilots, drawn and haggard from the strain of it all, yet grim and determined not to give up.
I see it in all of us.
Theres one other thing I see, searing forth like the fire that burns in my heart - Thraces clarity of vision. Perhaps its your distance from the maw of destruction that clouds yours? If I'm wrong, and you too are running on your wits edge you have my honest apologies ...
But please, don't talk so idly about short term gain, nothing could be further from the truth.
An alarm bell flashes on his comm unit ... 3 hostile scouts entering G-5EN2 ... Karn grunts, hits send and heads to the pod-bay. -----------------------------------------
Now recruiting. |
Masim
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.08 08:45:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Karn Mithralia Perhaps its your distance from the maw of destruction that clouds yours? If I'm wrong, and you too are running on your wits edge you have my honest apologies ...
But please, don't talk so idly about short term gain, nothing could be further from the truth.
We are all running at our wits edge, Karn. Apology accepted.
And I apologize if what I said sounded like idle chatter, that was not my intention.
I know how hard you work. You should know we work as hard on our end. We do not always agree on the course that should be taken, but we do agree in one thing: In the end our people will be free. All of us.
When the freedom is achieved, we still need to have strength to hold on to it. I do not wish us to waste all our strenght to achieve something we can not hold. That is what I mean with short term gain.
I know everyone is tired of waiting, I am too. But we do not need hasty actions, not now when we are so close. Our people need the fire you represent, but the people also need a fireplace to direct the flames.
Have no doubt, when that fireplace is strong enough, we will fight side by side against the slavers.
---
Masim Rhiannon Personnel Manager Gradient
Help us defend the Republic, join Gradient today |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.08 14:47:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Since you do not comment on my viewpoints on the non-desirability of an offensive war against the Empire, can I take it that you agree with them?
No, you cannot. I have presented my analysis here and previously in more detail. You analysis is directly opposed to mine. I do not agree with you, quite the opposite. I am suprised you need it spelled out.
Wait obediently for the slavers to come for you if you wish. If the Republic follows your analysis they doom themselves and everyone within their domain to slavery. But since everyone in the Republic appears to support this strategem I suppose they have brought it upon themselves.
Very good, I was afraid that you were paying so much attention to the less important conversation about Hamish in an effort to avoid the important part of the debate, namely the wisdom of an offensive war against the Amarr; glad to see that I was wrong. Could you please recap your position, provide links to the points that I have not debunked already, or contest the points I have made?
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Theron Gyrow ....Can it really be that the Hamish incident has been buried by Ushra'Khan so deeply that even their council members do not know the truth? Or are you mixing him up with someone else?
The Hamish I was speaking about was the CEO and founder of Tribal Trust of Pator, founding member of both People's Republic of Minmatar and Ushra'Khan, trusted council member of Ushra'Khan, ardent detractor of Republic, and an Amarr agent. You'll excuse me if seeing Ushra'Khan striving for a war that is very much in the Empire's interests somehow reminds me of him.
Hahahaha. Oh, is that all you know. I am privy to a great many things boy, clearly more than you.
I was not boasting of my knowledge, I was expressing worry that Ushra'Khan did not seem to remember that Amarr agents have been able to infiltrate them in the past and might not be as vigilant in screening their applicants as they should be. I'm glad to hear that I was mistaken and the worrisome comment was a rhetorical device misunderstood by yours truly. -- NMTZ forum |
Michael Bross
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Posted - 2007.02.08 18:33:00 -
[185]
Many of you may not remember that only 3 years ago the law defining treason in the Republic was revised in order to represent the mass introduction of the capsuleer to Republic space.
The Republic Criminal Code defines treason as follows:
"A person commits an offence, called treason, if the person:
(a) causes the death of the Tribal Leader, the heir apparent of the Tribal Leader, the consort of the Tribal Leader, the Governor-General (Planetary or Station) or the Prime Minister; or
(b) causes harm to the Tribal Leader, the Governor-General (Planetary or Station) or the Prime Minister resulting in the death of the Tribal Leader, the Governor-General (Planetary or Station) or the Prime Minister; or
(c) causes harm to the Tribal Leader, the Governor-General (Planetary or Station) or the Prime Minister, or imprisons or restrains the Tribal Leader, the Governor-General (Planetary or Station) or the Prime Minister; or
(d) levies war, or does any act preparatory to levying war, against the Republic; or
(e) engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist, an enemy: (i) at war with the Republic, whether or not the existence of a state of war has been declared; and (ii) specified by Proclamation made for the purpose of this paragraph to be an enemy at war with the Republic; or
(f) engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist: (i) another country; or (ii) an organisation; that is engaged in armed hostilities against the Republic Armed Forces; or
(g) instigates a person who is not a Republic citizen to make an armed invasion of the Republic; or
(h) forms an intention to do any act referred to in a preceding paragraph and manifests that intention by an overt act."
[1] A person is not guilty of treason under paragraphs (e), (f) or (h) if their assistance or intended assistance is purely humanitarian in nature.
The penalty for treason is life imprisonment.
Thus stated the actions of Karishal Muritor can be debated as an act of treason. Though even should he be guilty I see no provision for his death. Why did Karishal Muritor a man who did not raise arms to defend himself have to die. As the order seems to be illegal, those that gave it and those who followed it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I charge the Republic with premeditated murder.
Answer this charge...
Or answer to the Matari people...
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.02.08 18:58:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Michael Bross Many of you may not remember that only 3 years ago the law defining treason in the Republic was revised in order to represent the mass introduction of the capsuleer to Republic space. ...
Where did you dig up said articles? How come I have not been able to dig up these articles?
__________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Pacal Balan
Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.08 19:27:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Michael Bross Many of you may not remember that only 3 years ago the law defining treason in the Republic was revised in order to represent the mass introduction of the capsuleer to Republic space. ...
Where did you dig up said articles? How come I have not been able to dig up these articles?
Tis quite simple sister, the reason you cannot find it is because it is a fabricated piece of rubbish and not worth the neo-feed it is encoded on.
" Cizin's fire speaks to us...his chosen, Pero no pudieron matar nuestras rafces, for we cannot die!ö |
Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.08 19:48:00 -
[188]
Michael I think you might have missread whatever Republic Parliament release you have seen. Or there was an archiving problem in the data library you accessed or a nasty mixture of both. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Angelica Winters
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Posted - 2007.02.08 22:23:00 -
[189]
The title to this thread is incorrect. It should read:
"Ex-Republic Freedom fighter turned rogue and thief was killed today after refusing to appear for military trials for crimes against the Republic."
And Republic means the Matar people. If you Telemicus Thrace stole ships from Ushra'Khan that were not yours and did what you wanted with them, would UK just let you go on your merry way? Or would they hunt you down as a traitor to your corporation?
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.08 22:37:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Hakera on 08/02/2007 22:38:34
Originally by: Angelica Winters
And Republic means the Matar people. If you Telemicus Thrace stole ships from Ushra'Khan that were not yours and did what you wanted with them, would UK just let you go on your merry way? Or would they hunt you down as a traitor to your corporation?
Firstly, the Republic is not the Matari people. The Republic you have come to know, is not the will of the people but a vassal state of the empire too busy begging for the scraps from the emperors table to notice anything but the needs of themselves entombed within the bloated mind of Midular and her lackeys here who has been obsessed with power and image.
Their agenda for years has always been to persecute and ostracize disidents and so called freedom fighters. Pursued by the Republic assassins and forcing them to tow Midulars line or be killed. Made crystal clear by the propaganda campaigns by Midulars lackeys who seek to discredit us by whatever method. The truth hidden from the people by the republic run news channels.
You may recall another entity who uses similar methods, known as the Amarr Empire.
To respond to your other very used analogy in this thread, is he was to steal it to free thousands of people, we would welcome it. The ends justify the means, gold and possessions do not mean much to us, life does and the lives of our people enslaved by the Amarrians. The Republic on the other hand is obsessed with its gold & possesions.
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Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.02.09 12:51:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Evanda Char on 09/02/2007 12:49:27
Originally by: Angelica Winters The title to this thread is incorrect. It should read:
"Ex-Republic Freedom fighter turned rogue and thief was killed today after refusing to appear for military trials for crimes against the Republic."
And Republic means the Matar people. If you Telemicus Thrace stole ships from Ushra'Khan that were not yours and did what you wanted with them, would UK just let you go on your merry way? Or would they hunt you down as a traitor to your corporation?
What Muritor did with regard to the theft of Fleet ships, I do not dispute. However, his execution, in the end, came not because of that - if it had, Admiral Filmir or whoever gave him his orders would have acted months ago, after the ships were first stolen - but because of a Defiants/Ushra'Khan/Fimbulwinter joint operation which destroyed an Amarr battlestation in the Bleak Lands, which the Imperial Chamberlain claimed had Fleet's covert backing.
It's because of this timing that I back a call for elections; this is a major incident, and our people should have a right to look at the evidence and decide whether they feel this is right; whether Karin Midular makes them feel safe, or whether they would prefer a more hawkish candidate.
In the end, it is our non-capsuleer populations who have to have the loudest voice in this. When the slavers come, we can die in battle and re-sleeve to fight again. Even webbed, scrambled and in a pod, we can escape the slaver's needle with the self-destruct control and know we will awake, a few isk poorer, a long way from home, maybe, but alive.
The planetsiders don't have that choice. When the slavers come, they either die or are beaten down and taken away. They are the ones who must live with the fear, live with the loss, live with the consequences of any decision made by the Parliament. It has to be their decision. But they have to have a voice now because they may not feel that this act of appeasement has made them any safer at all.
If the Amarr navies come, the battle will be fought in space. Visibly.
The slavers go to mining colonies, invisible until someone picks the distress call out from the mess of interstellar comms. You can see why groundsiders might prefer the former.
But if the navies come, we risk everything. The whole Republic. The Slavers take only some. So you can see why some might prefer the latter.
I'm not here to judge the choices our people make; I'm here to serve them. But I do want to know what that choice is.
-Eva-
((Edit - I hadn't finished it))
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.10 02:35:00 -
[192]
Evanda, you are wise and the Electus Matari are right to wish for our people to be heard. I am glad you too understand that when I say this I refer to all our people, especially those who have a voice here.
Even out here on the rim word has reached my ears of the marches and vigils being held in the heartland. This warms my heart that so many have remembered what it means to be a Matari, what it means to stand up and make your voice heard.
There is no place for tyrants to rule over our people, regardless of who they are. Parliament can ignore the Ushra’Khan but they cannot ignore the people on whose toil they grow fat.
Today is a day I am glad to be a Matari. I am proud of every one of you who has had the courage to stand up in the face of this injustice and be counted.
13 Days remain. Karishal’s body lays in state at Unity Station. It is my sincere hope that the request of his Brothers in the Defiants be answered. I hope that after 13 days have passed we may end our mourning and bring his body home for burial.
>> RECRUITING << |
Kell Atorr
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.10 07:17:00 -
[193]
Eva, you make a very important point. One of my greatest worries is the hubris of pod pilots, who all too often see planetsiders, the mass of humanity, as merely passive, and regard their own military might as the solution to all problems.
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