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t2 lottery - change must be done

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Susa Ou	Posted - 2007.02.11 12:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 10/02/2007 06:12:08 This pledge is directly related to the current situation as discussed in this thread. It is now a fact that the by principle very abuseable system of t2 BPO distribution has in fact been abused. The community has called for changes to the t2 lottery since a very long time now. In light of the recent developments there is no more excuse for delaying a complete overhaul of the t2 distribution system any further. A new and improved system must be installed asap. I have always been a fan of simply seeding T2 BPOs to market at huge prices, OR, making invention create T2 BPOs with negitive me/pe. The Invention part would work far better. CCP could up the materials needed to balance it. I agree, Invention should produce BPOs or The market should seed T2 BPOs. I prefer the latter. People make money selling T1 gear, why should the production of T22 gear be economicaly different in any way? We all know the base price for a HAC is about 30ish mil. We also know that a Hac is made about 4 times a month. i This system needs a little more competition. It needs to eliminate the price gougers, the ccorps and alliance that depend on the T2 BPOs to fund their wars, the industrialist that simply got luckey - the T2 market needs to open up so that competition can right this wrong.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2007.02.11 12:46:00 - [62] good point really since invention for modules was made a bit profitable, i saw some corpmates go that way, and damn it looks interesting. but the amount of TIME involved!!! those deserve their bpo eheh ------
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.11 12:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Steve Holt Originally by: Genericforumalt Edited by: Genericforumalt on 10/02/2007 12:06:13Also putting them on the market is the WORST IDEA EVER. It would pretty much invalidate an entire career path/months of skill training. CCP knows this and this is why it would never happen, ever happen. It's simply too radical a change, even for CCP. The system that we have now is the best we can get without a horrible grind. The lottery is already the WORST IDEA EVER to begin with so spare me. If the BPOs were available on the market how would that invalidate months of skill training? You still need the same skills to produce a T2 item and components whether the BPO is given or purchased. Let's see: 3 characters with research project management at 4 = more than 1 month of play time (leave alone the prerequisite, they may be useful for something). If I ever train the fifth level those are another 4-5 months. The 5 level is 36 days for a character with 28 int and 23 memory.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.11 13:04:00 - [64] Originally by: mesirass pre-revelations oveur stated t2 bpos were to be seeded and dropped to improve t2 circulation, iv checked my rp agent constantly since then and the same amount and type of t2 bpos still show up on the agents, are any dropping? i also noticed a market change when invention started to take hold, but have seen very little change in the t2 market due to more t2 bpos supposedly being dropped, doh rocket scientist something isnt cocha..... Before revelation there weren't BPO availables from research agents, those vere seeded after the deploing of revelation.
WhoreMonger ShipYards Inc	Posted - 2007.02.11 14:38:00 - [65] I recently got a T2 BPO through the lottery...my first sniff in over 2 and a half years of play time (Yes this is a production alt and NOT the char who won the BPO) I was dead against the lottery but it DOES work....it is just that a lottery. Having said that I think the only REAL flaw with it is there is no transparency....you don't "pick" a number or indeed are you assigned any numbers...theres no lottery winning numbers published you just get a msg from you're research agent telling you that he has made a break through or he has hit a problem. Make things a little more transparent....give ppl something they can check against make them get involved with it and all the whines about the lottery will go away. My 0.02 isk's worth W n. A *****master. ShipYards Inc Research Service's
Ky Vatta Caldari Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce	Posted - 2007.02.11 17:17:00 - [66] The idea of selling T2 BPOs through the market at ridiculously high prices, is a very stupid idea at the very least What will happen then, is that the buyer of those BPOs will be trying to recoup his expenses of buying that T2 BPo by overcharging the customers for the goods (It is already happening--->See Hulk, where the actual cost is less than a quarter of the sale price) Best leave the lottery as it is, with one exception: Post up what BPOs are issued weekly, so we at least know there is some lucky guy out there who can produce certain T2 items....
Alexi Johns	Posted - 2007.02.11 17:29:00 - [67] I dont have a problem with the lottery as it is, players have to put some sort of effort in to be in the running. The major issue is the risk reward factor once a bpo has been aquired, you can sit in a NPC corp and build in hi sec and the bpo never has to leave the station and you cant be the target of war. Fair enough effort is involved in buying components etc, but NO risk for great reward is just wrong in my books isnt it an IWIN button?, fair enough not all t2 BPOs are like that but its still 0% risk to the security of the BPO. I say add POS Modules specific to building tech 2 components and allow in 0.0 only, i dont care if the price goes up and all the alliances buy everything up i just want to see risk involved and bpos change hands as regions are conquored during alliance warfare. IMO this would move alot more players out to 0.0 too and i know thats something CCP are pushing for. At the very least turn the lottery into BPC runs but keep production in empire and when it comes t3 production should be 0.0 only to add risk to reward.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.11 17:35:00 - [68] Originally by: Susa Ou why should the production of T22 gear be economicaly different in any way? Because a real market and player-run T2 economy is one of the major draws of Eve. //Maya
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:09:00 - [69] My BIGGEST concern is more that the people who had taken the time to get R&D agents will be screwed over! And datacores are NOT worth it. I cannot see, nor want to see a change to the t2 lottery. The t2 lottery gives EVERY player access to the possibility of a t2 bpo. These threads that CONSTANTLY ask for a new way, is, like many others, a whine thread. That point is concrete, you cannot deny that. The fact that you are disgusted by those who recieved them, while you sit there hoping and waiting for one. Please CCP, leave the system as it is. I don't want my month of training and months of waiting for it to be meaningless. I cannot fathom that I am the only one who thinks this way. Those that are waiting for one and complain, I have a solution, make isk and buy one. Find a bpo owner and negotiate a deal to buy one. -Bryg http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465618
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:17:00 - [70] Nooo changeeem ir have won a t2 bpo yay More more more more. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:24:00 - [71] Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/02/2007 18:21:16 http://www.petitiononline.com/ ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:27:00 - [72] Kill the lottery, seed the BPOs on the market and make invention produce BPOs. Current T2 owners will cry but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. Sory guys but it's the only fair thing to do, even if it doesn't sound fair to you.
The Judge The Eternal Knights	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Kill the lottery, seed the BPOs on the market and make invention produce BPOs. Current T2 owners will cry but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. Sory guys but it's the only fair thing to do, even if it doesn't sound fair to you. Have you even read the thread ?
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:58:00 - [74] Originally by: The Judge Originally by: Shameless Avenger Kill the lottery, seed the BPOs on the market and make invention produce BPOs. Current T2 owners will cry but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. Sory guys but it's the only fair thing to do, even if it doesn't sound fair to you. Have you even read the thread ? Hello T2 BPO owner. Yes I have.
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.02.11 19:03:00 - [75] if you want something fair, the ONLY thing is the lottery, it gives NO ADVANTAGE to ANY PLAYER. Regardless of age, play time or isk. So how can you say anything to the contrary? If you put t2 bpo's on the market, think these t2 BPO owners whom you claim to have billions couldn't, or wouldn't buy them? Fair is a lie. Lottery is fair. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465618
Sessho Seki	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Bryg Philomena [...]Fair is a lie. Lottery is fair. Shakespearian... Yes indeed the lottery is “fair” so long as we derive the meaning of fair from your above equation of “fair” being a lie… Please keep in mind this is coming from a winner of the “lottery”, however I prefer to call it: A joke in bad taste played upon the EVE community which CCP calls a research system so they won’t have to actually invest the effort necessary to let the players control their fate(s). I have no problem with T2 being rare or expensive, I do however have a considerable problem with calling a broken raffle system a substitute for an actual research mechanism. If anything, Invention is better than the T2 lottery, and Invention is almost as big a joke as the T2 lottery is already, let’s all cross our fingers and pray that CCP doesn’t let Invention die on the vine, but rather expands on it and pushes it as the primary avenue for technology research outside of dumb-luck, err, “the research system”. As with every other market that has ever been, if there is demand to be attended to, the market will do everything within its power to produce as much of whatever is desired to sate that demand. As with everything, PRODUCTION is the axis around which this entire issue should revolve, however production is literally not even allowed to have a say in the matter because it’s artificially capped by a joke of a lottery that only releases “X” number of BPO’s for each type, effectively “bending the market over” before the lottery winners even collect their prizes. The lottery could actually be nearly palatable if and only if there were monthly drawings of EVERY BPO after the initial release of them, and numbers would of course vary upon the type of BPO. This would allow for competition, AND keep T2 BPO holders from whining (as much) that they can’t make money because their BPO will retain considerable value, when even after a year the number of BPO’s introduced would still be EXTREMELY small compared to the population of EVE and demand would be allowed plenty of time for gougerific prices in the early days of the BPO’s but the market itself would at least have a chance with such a system to fend for itself over time. Oveur, among others, have even spoken of EXACTLY this same idea, and why on God’s green Earth they continue to drag their feet is curiously close to warranting a trial in The Hague for crimes against humanity, as they are clearly using the T2 lottery as a Weapon of Mass Frustration on thousands of innocent people…
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.12 02:45:00 - [77] Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 12/02/2007 02:47:03 Originally by: Par'Gellen Edited by: Par''Gellen on 10/02/2007 10:39:01 The solution is really pretty simple. Put every BPO in the game on the market and adjust the prices accordingly to fit the estimated target spread and growth. Edit: Oh and give those with research points a discount so that they are not worthless then get rid of the lottery completely and change research agents to fill a different role. It's never to late to fix a broken system. This is what you really want. T2 was supposed to fix the broken T1 system (YES, BROKEN) because players spend a lot of time skilling up to manufacture stuff, and guess what, what they make in five hours can be made by killing 1 NPC in 0.0. Invention is to stop it from going out of control, not to make T2 into T1. If T2 is everywhere, guess what, nobody uses T1, and T1 might as well go the way of basic items. Originally by: Shameless Avenger Kill the lottery, seed the BPOs on the market and make invention produce BPOs. Current T2 owners will cry but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. Sory guys but it's the only fair thing to do, even if it doesn't sound fair to you. Let's see you say that after spending over a year collecting T2 bpos and BILLIONS of ISK spent on them. I didn't win my BPO's in a magic lottery. I worked for them. What stopped you from doing the same? ---
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.12 03:01:00 - [78] Meh, I won a couple of t2 bpo's recently (I actually bought one earlier with ISK made from missions / trading) Now, as one of those rich layabout bastards who prints ISK while sleeping I have only one one thing to say to you commoners "nyanananana!!!eleven111!!"
Trask Kilraen The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.12 04:09:00 - [79] Originally by: Dark Shikari A lot of people seem to forget why the lottery, a player-designed idea was instituted. Its because there were only three obvious ways to distribute BPOs in a limited manner. 1. Auction. This way, only the rich would have any chance, and everyone else would be screwed. 2. Grindfest. I don't think I have to explain why having to "race to 3 million LP" or some crap like that would suck. 3. Lottery. Totally random, giving everyone a chance to get BPOs. Anyone who really thinks 1) or 2) would be a better option is crazy. There is no such thing as an "abusable" system; every system for distributing anything is by definition abusable if you're a dev, because a dev can do anything in the game world. Blaming the current problems on the lottery system are absolutely silly and stupid, because the dev didn't even use the lottery system to get the items, he spawned them You miss an abvious alternative: A modified lottery. Right now, the T2 market is artificially inflated because the number of BPO's is fixed. Regardless of the number of toons performing T2 research, only a set number of BPOs are awarded. One alternative is to have a CHANCE of getting a BPO offer based on the number of RP's you have. The more RP's the greater the chance you are made an offer. Exactly WHICH BPO you're offered would be totally random (within your area of research anyway). This would keep a steady supply of BPO's coming into the market, and would better support market mechanics.
Lori Labratt	Posted - 2007.02.12 06:17:00 - [80] Isn't that the way it is right now?
Neesa Corrinne Black Watch Legionnaires Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.12 06:24:00 - [81] The best idea ever put forth has been repeatedly ignored for some reason. A BPO lottery was a very unplanned and irresponsible method of handling the distribution. A BPC lottery on the other hand would make a lot of people shut their big mouths. Instead of giving absolute control over the production of an item to a few individuals, the lottery should instead drop decent sized BPC's. I wouldn't complain if my agent dropped a 5-10 run ship BPC every couple of months. This way it lets everyone who has an R&D agent receive some profit at random intervals instead of someone hitting the jackpot and basically growing ISK on their BPO tree.
medecau 33 cl's	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:53:00 - [82] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 10/02/2007 06:12:08 This pledge is directly related to the current situation as discussed in this thread. It is now a fact that the by principle very abuseable system of t2 BPO distribution has in fact been abused. The community has called for changes to the t2 lottery since a very long time now. In light of the recent developments there is no more excuse for delaying a complete overhaul of the t2 distribution system any further. A new and improved system must be installed asap. You mean the t20 lottery right? thats exactly what i read.
Torg Jupiter Minmatar Exploration Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.12 12:09:00 - [83] in opposition to a lot of posters in this thread i believe that CCP was right the way they handled the T2BPO fraud. stability is restored. but an increase in T2 research output should be benefitting as well, and if in the way of additional T2BPCs, like suggested above.
Par'Gellen Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2007.02.14 21:39:00 - [84] Edited by: Par''Gellen on 14/02/2007 21:41:24 Edited by: Par''Gellen on 14/02/2007 21:35:51 Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 12/02/2007 02:47:03 Originally by: Par'Gellen Edited by: Par''Gellen on 10/02/2007 10:39:01 The solution is really pretty simple. Put every BPO in the game on the market and adjust the prices accordingly to fit the estimated target spread and growth. Edit: Oh and give those with research points a discount so that they are not worthless then get rid of the lottery completely and change research agents to fill a different role. It's never to late to fix a broken system. This is what you really want. T2 was supposed to fix the broken T1 system (YES, BROKEN) because players spend a lot of time skilling up to manufacture stuff, and guess what, what they make in five hours can be made by killing 1 NPC in 0.0. Invention is to stop it from going out of control, not to make T2 into T1. If T2 is everywhere, guess what, nobody uses T1, and T1 might as well go the way of basic items. Originally by: Shameless Avenger Kill the lottery, seed the BPOs on the market and make invention produce BPOs. Current T2 owners will cry but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. Sory guys but it's the only fair thing to do, even if it doesn't sound fair to you. Let's see you say that after spending over a year collecting T2 bpos and BILLIONS of ISK spent on them. I didn't win my BPO's in a magic lottery. I worked for them. What stopped you from doing the same? That made me LOL hard. Calling fair competition on an open market "communism" and then looking at your sig of the T2 cargo expander and the infinite wallet balance is just classic. Edit: Oh and if you will actually read more than the first line of my post you will see we are saying the same thing about the prices. T2 BPO's SHOULD be very expensive! --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2007.02.14 21:55:00 - [85] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne The best idea ever put forth has been repeatedly ignored for some reason. A BPO lottery was a very unplanned and irresponsible method of handling the distribution. A BPC lottery on the other hand would make a lot of people shut their big mouths. Instead of giving absolute control over the production of an item to a few individuals, the lottery should instead drop decent sized BPC's. I wouldn't complain if my agent dropped a 5-10 run ship BPC every couple of months. This way it lets everyone who has an R&D agent receive some profit at random intervals instead of someone hitting the jackpot and basically growing ISK on their BPO tree. i keep tryin to say it. but when your head is stuck in the sand (or a pile of isk, or up your.. well we wont go there ) its kinda hard to hear common sense. DOWN W/ BPO LOTTERIES UP W/ BPC LOTTERIES MORE LOTTERIES MORE OFTEN "WHAT!? WHAT DID YOU SAY HANK??? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER TEH THUNDERING NOISE OF MY ISK PRINTING MACHINE?"
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.14 22:32:00 - [86] Personally, I think the R&D Agents should issue T2 BPO's and BPC's as random rewards, limited to those BPO's they are "researching"... No need to reseed the lotto, just a (very very low) chance each day and a (very low) chance with each mission you run for that agent... all you need to do is be tied up with the R&D agent (as it is now) for you to have a chance to get a BPO/BPC. When you figure you get 1 R&D mission per day, with the low chance of the mission paying off with a BPO/BPC the number of t2 BPO's would still be low, but the lotto issues would be out of the picture. Noob in training...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.14 23:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Originally by: Shameless Avenger Kill the lottery, seed the BPOs on the market and make invention produce BPOs. Current T2 owners will cry but they are not the mayority of the player base and they have billions already. Sory guys but it's the only fair thing to do, even if it doesn't sound fair to you. Let's see you say that after spending over a year collecting T2 bpos and BILLIONS of ISK spent on them. I didn't win my BPO's in a magic lottery. I worked for them. What stopped you from doing the same? So I say the lottery must die and BPOs should be bought, not won. Then you say I'm wrong because you bougth your BPOs instead of winning them and suggest me to do the same? Isn't that what I said in the first place? /me predicts now most T2 BPO owners will say "I did not win it, I bought it!"
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.15 00:07:00 - [88] Seems like a lot of people just aren't even talking about the same thing. The main problem is that some people feel T2 production should be limited in some way so that those who engage in it can at least get profit. This is not a flawed point in and of itself. But when it comes down to deciding who gets in on the sweet deal theres no fair way to do it. Everyone here who isn't a jerk clearly admits there is no fair way to decide this. That's why "luck" was decided on. At this point though a much larger group exists who isn't ok with this whole idea of artificial scarcity allowing profit. Frankly this group is the correct group. Nobody can honestly deny that their arguments are the most valid ones. I myself am not a member of this philosophy. I don't like the lottery or unlimited run BPO's but artificial scarcity is fine with me as long as the system is changed into a method that favors me(prolly some grinding method). At least I'm willing to admit my bias though unlike a lot of the irritating lottery supporters that show up in these threads.
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.02.15 00:16:00 - [89] Originally by: Sorela Seems like a lot of people just aren't even talking about the same thing. The main problem is that some people feel T2 production should be limited in some way so that those who engage in it can at least get profit. This is not a flawed point in and of itself. But when it comes down to deciding who gets in on the sweet deal theres no fair way to do it. Everyone here who isn't a jerk clearly admits there is no fair way to decide this. That's why "luck" was decided on. At this point though a much larger group exists who isn't ok with this whole idea of artificial scarcity allowing profit. Frankly this group is the correct group. Nobody can honestly deny that their arguments are the most valid ones. I myself am not a member of this philosophy. I don't like the lottery or unlimited run BPO's but artificial scarcity is fine with me as long as the system is changed into a method that favors me(prolly some grinding method). At least I'm willing to admit my bias though unlike a lot of the irritating lottery supporters that show up in these threads. A lot of people here are talking about the same thing, and it is a fair way. Tech2 BPC instead of BPO. Convert all old BPO to BPC, and only offer BPC from here on out. BPC runs out and is then re-seeded. Has anyone offered a reason why this wouldn't work? How or why it would be unfair? I'd love to see that.
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.15 00:18:00 - [90] Originally by: Par'Gellen That made me LOL hard. Calling fair competition on an open market "communism" and then looking at your sig of the T2 cargo expander and the infinite wallet balance is just classic. Edit: Oh and if you will actually read more than the first line of my post you will see we are saying the same thing about the prices. T2 BPO's SHOULD be very expensive! I'm glad you found it funny. I meant to make it like that. I'm not hiding anything. If every T2 bpo was on the market, everyone would be producing T2 items, and in a few short weeks every item would be available for the mineral cost, meaning anyone who has invested billions of ISK into these prints will NEVER recoup their costs, and the players who just won the lottery won't make diddly squat. Most supporters of the "seed bpos on market" are simply non-lottery winners, and are probably just jealous. If you want a garanteed T2 bpo, save the ISK and buy one. ---

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