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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14085
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Posted - 2016.04.04 21:42:16 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone! As we mentioned on last week's o7 show, we are planning a set of changes to the way capital escalations work in our Citadel expansion at the end of the month.
I want to start off with an apology for not getting this thread up a bit sooner. We've been a bit swamped here lately with prep for the expansion and early Fanfest prep, and I underestimated how long it would take to get some of this communication together.
The original sleeper capital escalation mechanic introduced way back in Apocrypha was (like many of the mechanics that ended up becoming staples of wormhole space) a bit of an accident. The escalation spawns were intended to provide extra challenge to prevent the sites from being too easy when farmed with capitals, but in practice they ended up becoming the major moneymaking source in the sites. There are several issues with the meta that emerged from the original escalation content, including the very unintuitive mechanics that encourage people to not complete the site so they can farm it repeatedly across downtimes.
With our big changes to capital ships coming in the Citadel expansion, we knew this would be a great opportunity to start building a more intentional form of capital PVE in high-class wormhole sites. We decided to create a new set of NPCs for the escalations so that we can balance and iterate on them without having to mess with the other uses of Sleepless Guardians in the basic site spawn groups. We also decided that we wanted to preserve a good chunk of the income from the sites while removing the incentive to leave sites uncompleted across downtimes. This led us in the direction of placing much of the loot that had been in the escalation spawns into a new Drifter NPC that will spawn once the site is completed.
Many of you will remember this "put the loot in something at the end of the site" concept as it's something we've been discussing with players at Fanfest roundtables for a few years now. We've also been discussing the concept with the CSM (especially Corbexx) and we're working hard to get our latest designs ready for public playtesting.
The basics of the new system are:
- The old capital escalation spawns have been replaced with smaller numbers of new NPCs that are intended to provide more engaging content for capital ships. These new escalation spawns are sleepers using the existing sleeper AI, have large signatures to ensure that they can be engaged fully by capital ships, and will perfer to shoot at capitals when available.
- These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s.
- The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
- Most of the value of the former escalation waves is being moved to a new Drifter NPC that will spawn once the site has completed.
- The new Drifter is worth about 350m, mostly in blue loot but including salvage as well.
- This new Drifter is completely independent of the site, and will warp off if not pointed. Our current design gives it 3 points of warp core strength, but that is open to change. Once it has left the site that spawned it, the Drifter can live in the system for many days, warping between celestial locations just like a normal Drifter. It is not removed by downtimes.
- We intend the Drifter to be probable with combat scanner probes, as well as visible on d-scan. Full disclosure: we've run into some technical roadblocks with the probing and d-scan part of the feature. We are confident that we can get it working and there's a good chance that it can be ready for the initial expansion release, but it's possible that it might slip to a point release.
- This new Drifter NPC spawns at the end of the site even if no capitals have been used. It is designed to be very challenging but to be doable both with and without capitals. It will however be much easier to kill using capitals.
- Multiple Drifters can co-exist in the same wormhole system and will come to each other's aid if one gets attacked.
Both of these NPCs will "evolve" occasionally as we tune them to provide interesting and fun challenges for wormhole residents. As new functionality is added to the Drifter AI over time we plan to keep adding those features to these Drifter NPCs. The Drifters are an advanced and adaptable foe: those of you who have some experience with the early weeks and months of the original Drifters will understand what I mean.
The fact that the new mechanics encourage people to complete sites is intentional. We think this brings better gameplay than simply clearing escalation spawns and leaving the base site for days. It's important to remember that the spawn rate of new sites is connected to the completion rate of existing sites so as players in all wormhole systems start to complete their sites faster we expect new sites to repopulate faster as well.
We do hope to eventually put a smaller version of this Drifter "boss" into some lower class wormholes as well, especially C4s.
We're really interested in hearing your feedback. I'll do my best to answer questions and we'll update this thread as we get newer versions of the NPC balance onto SISI.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14085
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:00:35 -
[2] - Quote
FAQ (big thanks to Corbexx for helping collect these questions from the community):
Quote:Will these drifters doomsdays people? Will it always one shot someone? These Drifters will have their own version of the Drifter doomsday, but it will not always one-shot someone. It will however provide its own form of challenge.
Quote:Will the Drifters be able to scram people to shut off MJD. Yes.
Quote:Will Drifters have different fits/abilities depending on type of wormhole system/effect. Not at this time. It's definitely an interesting idea, although it would be a challenge to implement this with our current site spawning code.
Quote:Will Drifters scan people down and randomly attack them? Will they 3rd party on people fighting? These NPCs will not scan down players, although they may unexpectedly engage players at the locations they normally warp between.
Quote:Will they be able to find wormholes? At the moment the Drifter AI cannot find normal spawned sites like wormholes. This is a feature we would like to add to the new AI generally, and as soon as it is developed we will add it to the W-space Drifters.
Quote:Do you need a capital to spawn the drifter? No, the Drifter will spawn once the site is completed no matter what ships are used. Capital support will greatly speed up the destruction of this NPC though.
Quote:How long after finishing the site will it spawn? How long till it will warp off? It will spawn immediately after the site completes, and will warp off at different rates depending on what environment the AI sees.
Quote:Will data/relic sites spawn the Drifter? The current plan is for the drifter to only spawn in the combat sites. The way that data/relic sites trigger site completion would cause some problems with the new NPC spawning. This may change however.
Quote:How long will they stay in system? Many days. We are going to be putting a cap in place to prevent server load from getting too high if tons of them spawn over time, but we want that cap to be as high as possible. The cap will likely be adjusted both before and after release as we tune it to get as high as possible without causing issues.
Quote:Is there a max on how many there will be in a system? Yes, but this will also be as high of a cap as we can get away with.
Quote:Can we scan them down? Will they appear on D scan? We absolutely intend to make them scannable and visible on d-scan, just like player ships. Full disclosure: we've run into some technical roadblocks with the probing and d-scan part of the feature. We are confident that we can get it working and there's a good chance that it can be ready for the initial expansion release, but it's possible that it might slip to a point release.
Quote:Will they attack structures? Not right now.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14085
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:00:44 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:Will FAX spawn the the new cap escalation wave? Yes. There will be one wave for each capital type.
Quote:Will the escalation spawns have capital neuts? They will have neuts, but they will be balanced separately from the player capital-sized neuts.
Quote:Will these have the new AI like the drifter? No, these will use the older AI just like other Sleepers. At some point in the future we hope to move more NPC groups (like sleepers) to the newest AI, but for now it is limited to specific NPC groups like Drifters.
Quote:How many waves of these will we get? 4 like we do now? There will be up to three waves: one for a dread, one for a carrier, one for a force auxiliary.
Quote:How much will these be worth? ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s
Quote:Will the isk/hr from these still be as good as the old ones? That depends a bit on how you run the sites, but in most cases no. You will be able to run more sites in a day however, especially if you expand to running sites in your static.
Quote:Will the isk from drifters be mainly from blue books? Yes. It will have a similar breakdown of value between blue loot and salvage that other high-class NPCs have.
Quote:Will these changes be on sisi before they come on tranquility for us to test? Yes. The version that is on SISI now is spawning the right NPCs (although the drifter has the wrong character piloting it) with the right loot, but the balance of them isn't in great shape. We plan on getting that closer to a release candidate asap so you folks can give it a shot.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14085
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:06:04 -
[4] - Quote
Reserved
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14085
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:06:15 -
[5] - Quote
Reserved
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
2006
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:15:48 -
[6] - Quote
Those are really interesting gameplay concepts. Are there any plans to include them in k-space?
I especially like the concept of being able to "corrupt" the system of another entity by filling it with hostile NPCs that aggress people. But even the overall concept of having a challenging boss, that too is interesting!
It's a bit dissapointing that they don't scan down players though, especially since they can't find wormholes (which probably includes other signatures). Because it seems to hint that they will essentially be limited to warping to planets in wormholes. Or am I wrong?
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Retired Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - Ex-BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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Anthar Thebess
1484
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:32:51 -
[7] - Quote
Maybe instead of making them visible on dscan and scan probes - they can be lured by putting some ship on the system POCOs. Scanning is fun, but baiting NPC in indy ship sounds much better.
Can this boss NPC leave wormhole after few days instead of despawning?
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
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Chesterfield Fancypantz
The Golden Horde.
60
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:33:14 -
[8] - Quote
I really like these changes and ever since I heard about them I have been very much supportive.
I would like to point out to CCP fozzie and others that IMHO they need to be capable of being run with entirely subcaps or a good number of corporations that exist in a lower class wormhole for the double static will be unable to participate in c5 sites. They should be harder and slower to run vs capitals, and we should miss out on the cap escalation waves (obviously) but IMHO one of the main points of this patch is to make it so that way running sites in a c5 static is a capable and comparable isk/hr.
My main concern is that the DD from the sleeper "boss" will straight up alpha ships off the field like t2 logistics. It will really suck to have a farming fleet together and be running sites only to lose a ship every single site we go into because a DD blaps it off. IMHO I think that the sleeper should be extremely difficult and high DPS, but should not just alpha ships off the field.
You said yourself that sleeper sites should be doable with subcaps just "very hard" and I just want to make sure that my concearns regarding the strength of the DD of the sleeper boss to be voiced.
I look forward to a new age of wormhole space where there is actually activity and populated wormholers, rather then the roll holes and PvE land we see now. Contribute to wormhole culture, communities, and farm in your static or GTFO.
TY |
Franky Saken
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
61
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:38:48 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Quote:Will the isk/hr from these still be as good as the old ones? That depends a bit on how you run the sites, but in most cases no. You will be able to run more sites in a day however, especially if you expand to running sites in your static. Quote:Will the isk from drifters be mainly from blue books? Yes. It will have a similar breakdown of value between blue loot and salvage that other high-class NPCs have. Quote:If there will be more reasons to do more in the static would increasing the wh mass be possible? To allow more battleships through to help run sites? To allow for 2 capitals to go there and back? I'm definitely open to making tweaks to high-class WH connection mass if the community likes the idea. I encourage people to contribute to Corbexx's thread here where he asks that very question. I can go either way with this topic, depending on what the consensus in the WH community ends up being.
Neat. |
Maria Jita
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:50:30 -
[10] - Quote
With sites appearing as others gets run, have you guys made any progress of fixing the long time bug that keeps sites from despawning when not activated?
Anomalies and signatures are supposed to be on a 14 day timer, so they automatically de-spawn if no-one touch the site for 14 days, however this mechanic have been broken for years now and sites tend to horde up in crappy systems.
Would be super nice if you guys could get around to fixing that, since more sites will now spawn in these systems before someone gets around to warp to them. |
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Chesterfield Fancypantz
The Golden Horde.
61
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:51:55 -
[11] - Quote
Maria Jita wrote:With sites appearing as others gets run, have you guys made any progress of fixing the long time bug that keeps sites from despawning when not activated?
Anomalies and signatures are supposed to be on a 14 day timer, so they automatically de-spawn if no-one touch the site for 14 days, however this mechanic have been broken for years now and sites tend to horde up in crappy systems.
Would be super nice if you guys could get around to fixing that, since more sites will now spawn in these systems before someone gets around to warp to them.
I concur.
I would highly support a faster turn over for sites that are not run. Say 4-5 days would be ideal. Keep the sites flowing through c5/c6 sites more evenly. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8253
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Posted - 2016.04.04 22:54:43 -
[12] - Quote
Does this Drifter maintain some of the interesting design elements of the standard Drifter, including resist holes and double shield?
Additionally, do the new Upgraded Avengers use any sort of Doomsday, or are they simply upgunned Sleepers? Additionally, do they have shields a la Circadian Seekers or Drifters, or are they shieldless like normal Sleepers?
What's the deal with Emergent Retainers?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2401
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:02:32 -
[13] - Quote
Glad to see CCP has finally pledged to take action against the downtime respawning of contemporary capital escalations.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
183
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:06:24 -
[14] - Quote
well if you put the scripted generator on drifter, it will perma-scram it,
how about adding the ship to player hands? what it would be? would capsuleers adapt the new technology? there must be event that alive drifter gets hijacked , studied and his technology copied for playerbase usage.
will drifters be able to deploy the tower with forcefield so drifters can plant nest in a wormhole and breed with time and start to harrass wormhole residents ?
will drifters drop capsule once their ship is destroyed?
how about drifter capital ship that could launch circadian seekers as drones
will there be any chance that c1 , c2 , c3 wormholes also will get some love? maybe random chance of spawn the site that can spawn better sleepers since c1 are worst to be living in , c2 , c3 are quite good but not that much since c4 wh is just better.
will drifters drop short-lifetime bubbles to cach players?
will drifters do some ambush attacks on players ?
would players like the playable drifter ship? if yes is it possible to let players fly them?
and final question how do CCP fit pirate ships, is there any formula,schematics? how actually look npc pirate ship high / med / low slots? |
OmgNetGirl
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
2
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:25:55 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Multiple Drifters can co-exist in the same wormhole system and will come to each other's aid if one gets attacked.
So wait, can these things be hell spawned and then you end up with the wormhole from hell?
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Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
63
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:37:19 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s. The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
why? |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
63
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:43:34 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:These Drifters will have their own version of the Drifter doomsday, but it will not always one-shot someone. It will however provide its own form of challenge.
Could you clarify this? You mentioned sub will be able tun run the sites, but if we lose a battleship each times theres no money in it. |
biz Antollare
Suddenly Carebears
118
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:59:36 -
[18] - Quote
having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now ?
Leave total WH mass alone. if you need to change the max jump mass for armor caps thats one thing.
and lowering the total value of the sites is dumb.... the escalation waves should be worth more isk than 50 mil.
So when is Moon goo getting nerfd? |
Chesterfield Fancypantz
The Golden Horde.
61
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:02:51 -
[19] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote: having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now ?
Leave total WH mass alone. if you need to change the max jump mass for armor caps thats one thing.
I agree, it is kinda stupid.
I see that they want it to be more complicated and have the sleepers hunting around for people, but they are making it more work for themselves then it should be. |
Mimiko Severovski
Zero Fun Allowed
41
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:09:32 -
[20] - Quote
I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie. Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve. The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships.
This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about) Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved.
But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ?
Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming. |
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biz Antollare
Suddenly Carebears
118
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:18:33 -
[21] - Quote
Side note...
If the WH community knew Corbexx was going to join goons, he would have never gotten all our votes.
so now we have a goon helping dictate how WH sites work. |
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
432
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:34:57 -
[22] - Quote
Interesting changes.
Please confirm the following.
- You are removing the ability to do solo dread in c5 sites. If people are after escalation isk they should have to risk a cap fleet.
- You are removing the ability to use bombers to run c5 sites in red giants. As above if people want c5 isk they should have to risk more than a 40m bomber.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4825
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:38:35 -
[23] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now it is completely stock standard to have points available in current escalation fleets anyway, this isnt really a problem. the only way it's an issue is if the drifter spawns way out of point range and immediately warps off, as that would suck. personally I think it should only have 1 warp strength as well, requiring 3 long points is a little excessive.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
88
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:40:01 -
[24] - Quote
Can these or will these new NPC drifters travel using wormholes? If you intend to add this down the line would they prefer certain wormholes over others (C5 and higher for example) or will they travel anywhere without preference?
This might also allow a small solution to capping their number per system as you could meet the cap then just have a few fly through another wormhole ensuring that the cap is never reached.
Also will having a certain number of drifters in system open anything new in that system either through drops, sites, or how they interact? For instance if there are say 10 of them in one system will they work together more then if there were only 2 or 3? Or if there was something like 20 or more would they create their own warpable site, maybe in a way that relates to the hives or something else revolving around the whole drifter mystery. |
Credacom
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
51
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:41:13 -
[25] - Quote
Cool changes, we really needed some new material to WH pve.
The old way forced anti social and the farm hole culture that really put WHs on the fast track to stagnation.
This puts ppl in their chains more with legit capitals.
I hope the WH mass triples. Battleship doctrines, more caps in statics, more possible openings for new sigs to open up between you and your pos. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
63
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:44:57 -
[26] - Quote
Credacom wrote: I hope the WH mass triples. Battleship doctrines, more caps in statics, more possible openings for new sigs to open up between you and your pos.
Please no. WH space is an amazing boon for smaller groups, looking to avoid blobs. The more experienced ones can even play with the mass to limit and uppunch even more. It shouldn't change. |
biz Antollare
Suddenly Carebears
118
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:45:21 -
[27] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:biz Antollare wrote:having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now it is completely stock standard to have points available in current escalation fleets anyway, this isnt really a problem. the only way it's an issue is if the drifter spawns way out of point range and immediately warps off, as that would suck. personally I think it should only have 1 warp strength as well, requiring 3 long points is a little excessive.
the drifter should be aggressive and not run from a fleet. |
Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4826
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:47:59 -
[28] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Jack Miton wrote:biz Antollare wrote:having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now it is completely stock standard to have points available in current escalation fleets anyway, this isnt really a problem. the only way it's an issue is if the drifter spawns way out of point range and immediately warps off, as that would suck. personally I think it should only have 1 warp strength as well, requiring 3 long points is a little excessive. the drifter should be aggressive and not run from a fleet. yes I agree, but to a point. he clearly stated it would fight or run based on what it sees, so I'm assuming if it sees 10 dreads on field, it's just going to nope out as fast as it can to discourage people from just blobbing the sites and I think that's good.
one thing this change hits VERY hard is soloing C5 sites with a marauder since if the drifter always spawns, youre going to need to be extremely careful not to actually finish the site with a subcap.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
432
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:I really like these changes and ever since I heard about them I have been very much supportive.
I would like to point out to CCP fozzie and others that IMHO they need to be capable of being run with entirely subcaps or a good number of corporations that exist in a lower class wormhole for the double static will be unable to participate in c5 sites. They should be harder and slower to run vs capitals, and we should miss out on the cap escalation waves (obviously) but IMHO one of the main points of this patch is to make it so that way running sites in a c5 static is a capable and comparable isk/hr.
My main concern is that the DD from the sleeper "boss" will straight up alpha ships off the field like t2 logistics. It will really suck to have a farming fleet together and be running sites only to lose a ship every single site we go into because a DD blaps it off. IMHO I think that the sleeper should be extremely difficult and high DPS, but should not just alpha ships off the field.
You said yourself that sleeper sites should be doable with subcaps just "very hard" and I just want to make sure that my concearns regarding the strength of the DD of the sleeper boss to be voiced.
I look forward to a new age of wormhole space where there is actually activity and populated wormholers, rather then the roll holes and PvE land we see now. Contribute to wormhole culture, communities, and farm in your static or GTFO. .
Support. but escalations should only be doable with caps. the regular part of the c5 site should be doable with subcaps. (from my understanding the regular part of the c5 site is not changing in isk value)
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
352
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:50:08 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello everyone! I.
YASS!
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4826
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:51:17 -
[31] - Quote
come to think of it, I dont really see why the drifter should spawn if youre not using caps. doesnt really make any sense.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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biz Antollare
Suddenly Carebears
118
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Posted - 2016.04.05 00:57:48 -
[32] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:come to think of it, I dont really see why the drifter should spawn if youre not using caps. doesnt really make any sense.
cause they ass-ended the value of the site. so they sorta have to. |
Peter Moonlight
Suddenly Carebears
184
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Posted - 2016.04.05 01:10:48 -
[33] - Quote
Mimiko Severovski wrote:I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie. Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve. The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships. This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about) Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved. But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ? Edit: CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming. Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.
What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.
Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.
So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.
IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?
You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.
And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none? -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course
-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED
-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed
-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared
I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.
I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.
|
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
436
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 01:12:58 -
[34] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Jack Miton wrote:come to think of it, I dont really see why the drifter should spawn if youre not using caps. doesnt really make any sense. cause they ass-ended the value of the site. so they sorta have to.
only the capital escalation portion.. the regular c5 site spawn and isk should stay the same.
really doing the escalation with subcaps should go away. if you want the isk take the risk.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 01:25:43 -
[35] - Quote
@Fozzie: If Drifters pile up when spawned but not killed, will they also warp into other combat sites to help their sleeper comrades while those are fighting against a player pve fleet? If this is the case, then a system could be easily made unusable for months by players (residents by accident or attackers/disrupters with malicious intent) completing one or more sites and letting the Drifter escape. The escaped Drifter would then start helping the sleepers in other sites making each new site much more difficult than the last one.
Meaning that if the residents for example tried to kill the Drifter in one site but failed and it escapes, they will go against two Drifters in the next site and fail even harder, and after that they can basically forget about doing PvE in their hole and move out. How will you stop this vicious cycle from happening?
I also share the concerns that the changes could make capitals less useful in high-class pve which would also harm pvp corps hunting for cap ganks. However I'm optimistic that this new concept could even improve the situation if done right. Now, usually 2 dreads and 2 carriers are used to escalate, but the one carrier only warps in at range to trigger his wave and immediately leaves again, and the other carrier often does not triage. So in most cases, gankers can catch two dreads and in the best case also the one carrier but rarely all four capitals.
If the new drifter now encourages the use of at least four committed capitals or even more, then it could be an improvement also for the hunters. And if the bearing fleet uses subcapitals instead surely this subcap fleet will have to be quite large and/or shiny, so also a worthwile target for attackers.
So there is good potential here for improvements all around, it will just depend on execution :)
.
|
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
89
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 02:13:53 -
[36] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:@Fozzie: How will you stop this vicious cycle from happening?
Don't suck at Eve?
Also, the ability of a motivated attacker to "toxify" a system for purely PvE oriented entities, to literally leave poop everywhere on their way out if they don't get a fight, is amazing. The converse, that a group which could take down such a toxified system could make untold billions in an hour, is also amazing. Bravo.
Please make this a thing in Null. Make there be consequences for getting safe at the first sign of danger. If all of the Imperium, all of Null, has to burn to make this a thing then I will breathe the smoke and revel in the visions it shows me. Let the hate flow, let the apocalypse come, let the flames consume the weak and unworthy. Make the choice of safety be a trap; glory as all those who cannot fight for what they own flee broken and weeping back to the safety of Empire. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 02:21:24 -
[37] - Quote
No, because this is still a MMO and the consequences would be too dire with too little effort by the 'system poopers'.
If one Drifter is a real challenge even to an established high-class corp, as it is intended to be, then this naturally means that two Drifters are a HUGE challenge and three or more are impossible to beat.
And an attacker would only need a few minutes at any time of the day to toxify the system. No corp can or should be expected to guard their whole system 24/7 to stop mass Drifter spawning.
And even without malicious attackers, in a big corp there can always be some newbies or people just make mistakes and in 10 minutes of fail they could unintentionally toxify the whole system for their 70 corp mates who maybe were sleeping that time, that is not balanced.
.
|
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
285
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 02:24:44 -
[38] - Quote
If you warp in a huge fleet, the Drifter should make a much better attempt at running away or call in reinforcements that don't drop money. |
Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
41
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 02:49:56 -
[39] - Quote
Peter Moonlight wrote:
Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.
What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.
Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.
So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.
IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?
You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.
And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none? -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course
-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED
-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed
-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared
I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.
I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.
I came here to voice my opinions on the changes, but Peter sums it up.
You were meant to nerf income and increase risk. I think the income nerf is about right, but risk is completely gone now you can just burn the site down to the drifter with subs.
This is what happens when the so-called "WH CSM member" knows nothing about running sites besides warping 10 dreads in to a C6 mag site.
I'm an acquired taste.
|
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
190
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 02:50:14 -
[40] - Quote
Regular drifters? Please don't kill the wh bling Kronos. I've had like five of them nuked by k space drifters and to be frank, I would prefer not to mirror this in J. Ideally higher scan resolution for the drifter DD?
It's fun, difficult, dangerous and profitable gameplay. Save it if you can.
Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur.-á
|
|
Dr No Game
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
69
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 04:06:14 -
[41] - Quote
Well it was a good run, lads. |
Chesterfield Fancypantz
The Golden Horde.
63
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 04:23:24 -
[42] - Quote
Peter Moonlight wrote:Mimiko Severovski wrote:I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie. Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve. The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships. This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about) Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved. But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ? Edit: CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming. Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6. What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent. Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that. So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away. IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets? You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations. And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none? -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course -NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED -Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed -Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer. I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.
The easiest way to add substantial risk to the changes is to make sleeper rats be plentiful and have lots and lots of points.
Make going to the site impossible to get away from if you're running the site. Then even if they do see a new sig, they are stuck in the site until its gone.
This is sure as **** not "more easy and less risk" then the current setup now. |
Richard Knickson
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 05:05:19 -
[43] - Quote
WTB Guristas anom capital escalations.. |
Luft Reich
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
137
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 06:17:34 -
[44] - Quote
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:Peter Moonlight wrote:Mimiko Severovski wrote:I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie. Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve. The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships. This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about) Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved. But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ? Edit: CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming. Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6. What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent. Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that. So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away. IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets? You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations. And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none? -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course -NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED -Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed -Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer. I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE. The easiest way to add substantial risk to the changes is to make sleeper rats be plentiful and have lots and lots of points. Make going to the site impossible to get away from if you're running the site. Then even if they do see a new sig, they are stuck in the site until its gone. This is sure as **** not "more easy and less risk" then the current setup now.
See for you chester, since you are dumb, harder sleepers makes it more challenging for you to run sites. For most of the population who isn't bad at PvE the danger is really in getting killed by other people. Adding more sleepers isn't the way to do it, increase the chances of getting rolled into by supersp00ky people by a factor determined by sleepers killed, sites killed, drifters killed something like that. Increase exponentially from a base "roll in factor" and boom SUPER DANGEROUS FARMING.
Or just add more sleepers so you can die in site with rattlesnakes lmao.
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
|
Timoxa Zero
Alcoholocaust. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 06:18:49 -
[45] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Side note...
If the WH community knew Corbexx was going to join goons, he would have never gotten all our votes.
so now we have a goon helping dictate how WH sites work.
biz, i dont want to call you out but i just have to at this point besides complaining about wormhole pve changes from the company that runs the game and in no way guarantees solidifed concrete game mechanics you are complaining about a change this game has needed for several years which has been CHAMPIONED by your favorite goon. The reason he left (atleast i think) is that he saw the bad things happening to wormhole space and needed to get away to get an outside view on our environment. the current state of wormhole escalations are totally ruining the value of this game. everyone has a farm hole (even those who are/have been championing against the current state of escalations) which shows the fact that is is so insanely minmaxed and broken that everyone does it. You can 1 cycle 2 escalation waves in a hero dread. and assuming you spent 5-10 minutes per hour warping from site to site and escalations being 120 each, so 120(2) per 5 per hour - 10 = 50 minutes. thats like 2.4b per hour solo dreading which means you can pay your dread back in like 2 hours. let's not even get started with quad escalations, because those are even worse. even peter did them, and he was the ultimate krab killer, simply because it is such a viable and easy way of getting money. So I'd suggest rather than getting mad because you need to put a point on your pve ship you actually read between the lines and think about how this affects the game before you default to thinking about yourself /rant
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King Creator
Out of Focus Odin's Call
27
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 07:05:33 -
[46] - Quote
MUH SHEKELS! |
Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
214
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 07:15:26 -
[47] - Quote
I like the idea of this drifter.
I am worried about the distribution of the rewards though. I can understand why you put the value at the end of the site, you want people to complete them. However, the escalations pay so little there is no way I am risking my 4-5 bil capital ship. It may just be easier and safer to just kill the drifter using a subcap fleet. Especially if you're running sites in your static you can just gtfo when something happens with minimal losses. |
muhadin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
250
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 07:15:53 -
[48] - Quote
I like the changes overall. However i do have concern about site spawn rate. ex: the buildup of tons of sites in unoccupied holes. You should consider making so sites only have a total lifetime of 4days, versus the current 30 days(Instead of 4days from prewarp). I believe currently sites despawn after 30days after spawning, but if you cut that down to 4 days sites would cycle through whs faster, so if you are not there actively running them they could be gone the next couple of days.
This may be swapping around the way the sites are done which is totally cool, but this DRASTICALLY reduces the amount of isk the sites generate in total. If current site spawn rate is left the way it is, eg sites building up in unoccupied whs. It could be a week before you have more than 4-5 sites to run period. You lose about 75% of the previous isk gained over the 4 days versus the new method of sites only for 1 day.
Sites can and will still build up if their total lifetime was 4days and i imagine you will still come across holes with 15-20 sites where you can turbojew. This would be a pretty great change to go along with these changes.
TLDR: Make sites total lifetime only 4 days so sites are constantly despawning and respawning by themselves all over wspace.
"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 07:44:25 -
[49] - Quote
I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.
.
|
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 08:22:14 -
[50] - Quote
I just realized: Does the drifter have to have a single-target-dd? Could he maybe have one of the new ones with AOE ?
I think the DD is the most worrying part about these changes and was the part that turned many people off the Drifter incursions. On the one hand no more soloing of highend sites is a good goal in my eyes since they are supposed to be the hardest PvE in game. On the other hand I think Marauders are cool and there are so few activities to use them for. |
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ISD Rontea
ISD RUS
669
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 08:26:22 -
[51] - Quote
Do new drifters have interdiction nullifier feature? Can heavy interdictors`s Scripted Warp Disruption Field tackle new Drifter?
ISD Rontea
Vice Admiral
-Æ-+-+-+-+-é-æ-Ç -¦-Ç-â-+-+-ï -+-+ -¦-+-¦-+-+-+-¦-¦-¦-ü-é-¦-+-Ä -ü -+-¦-Ç-+-¦-¦-+-+
Interstellar Services Department
|
Bleedingthrough
197
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 08:30:37 -
[52] - Quote
Just came back to the game to kick some Bees in the butt. o7
With these changes I might move back to w-space in the long run. They potentially enable a playstyle I enjoyed in the past: living out of a lower class dual static WH. For me the problem always was that you could not generate enough income from a C5+ static to finance a meaningful PvP fleet for the stuff I wanted to do. I am happy that the exponentially more troublesome (= content generating) farming of statics gets some love. I hope that it will not be necessary to have GÇ£farming holesGÇ¥ in order to finance activities in GÇ£pew holesGÇ¥ in the future.
Anyone tested these changes with a subcap fleet yet?
|
Mena en Distel
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 08:52:54 -
[53] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour. Dread have dpsa same for 2-3 rattlesnake at this moment on sisi. do you think that a problem for using 3 rattlesnake?
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2177
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 09:02:40 -
[54] - Quote
Fielding 3 capitals for an extra 150 mil is not worth the risk neither is fighting a drifter that can potentially insta-pop one of your ships.
I'll probably do a more detailed post later but right now, these changes don't seem very well thought out.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Conjaq
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
37
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 09:33:34 -
[55] - Quote
Off the bat it seems like a nerf across the board. with both good and bad consequences.
* Less value for running escalations almost a ~23% cut. ** The value of actually doing the escalations are incredibly minor. I'm guessing that doing a site without a dread(and carrier after the changes) damage capabilities is going to take forever, because of the big boss geared towards capital ships. So that means the effective amount of sites you can do per hour goes down drastically.(nerf)
* The amount of people needed to run a site, will increase... You need something that can point that sleeper boss, either with a scram or 3x points. Which means either you run with more accounts, or you bring more people to split the isk, which is a direct nerf. On the positive side it requires group play, which is good.
*If you decide to run escalations, you're effectively going to drop ~10 bill on the field. and only gain a meager 100 mill or so extra in loot, that's a very very very minor increase...(nerf) ** Thinking about it, if you decide you want to escalate the sites and bring in another 3 guys(dread, fax, carrier). you're actually getting less isk, than if you decide not to escalate the site, because you need to split it between more people... That seems like a bad of way incentivizing group play.
All in all, i suppose the idea was to reduce the amount of isk one can get from running sites in Wormholes, which is both good and bad. I would have much prefered that you had nerfed the isk for those that ran escalations with the use of a single dread, while keeping the isk to gain when doing group play with others.
Instead it's seemingly a nerf across the board, which does not really incentive group play, it actually makes a loss.
That being said, it's hard to know judge such a change, without having tried it. Can we expect to try it out on sisi before it hits in tranq?
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biz Antollare
Suddenly Carebears
118
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 09:54:51 -
[56] - Quote
would be nice if sisi made it easier to test these changes.
The market should have faction and deadspace mods seeded because thats how were going to fit ships on TQ. It would also make it so people wouldnt have to /copyships every day to steal mods off ships they have in stations.
as it is the /moveme command only gives you limited options of WH's and effects.
When you use the /moveme command it should give you the option of typing in the system you want to move to.
Scanning chains on sisi is a major waste of time. |
Anthar Thebess
1486
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 10:32:04 -
[57] - Quote
Can we also migrate bigger part of blue loot into better sleeper salvage? Blue loot generate just isk from thin air, salvage is used to create new ships, and thank to this increase rotation of the isk in the system.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
|
Sakul Aubaris
Holy Cookie
9
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 11:15:51 -
[58] - Quote
Peter Moonlight wrote:Mimiko Severovski wrote:I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie. Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve. The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships. This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about) Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved. But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ? Edit: CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming. Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6. What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent. Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that. So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away. IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets? You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations. And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none? -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course -NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED -Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed -Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer. I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.
Pretty solid summary in my eyes.
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Iam Cloaked
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 11:24:37 -
[59] - Quote
Obviously the point of nerfing W-space income is that more wormholers leave their corps and join Goons, where they can rat much more safely. |
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
107
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 12:07:36 -
[60] - Quote
Ok so if i'm understanding this correctly i have a couple of questions and/or observations.
Judging by the overall change in cap escalations, what is the point now of actually using caps? I ask as i used to run them in a C5 with old corp, not hero dreading but full fleet, as in not a single time we did them were we not risking over 20b in ships. The risk was mitigated by the projected gains from running the full sites lest the trigger and running each one 4 days straight. That was worth the risk of a 20b fleet of caps/subcaps.
Now, with these changes, i don't see how any reward is balanced with the risk of corps fielding a full 20b cap escalation fleet for such a poor gain, once per day multiplied by how ever many escalation capable sites they have in their home hole. No corp will risk the fleet needed for a measly 300-400m one off gain.
Whats stopping me and my buddy in our C5 flying a pair of Paladins to run the normal non escalation versions of C5 sites up to the final NPC on the grid ( to stop the bad ass doomsday-ing drifter spawning ) and earning ourselves 250-330m in blue loot not including ribbons from salvage every 8-10mins and then doing the same the day after for up to 4 days? I know fozzie mentioned he was doing away with the ability to leave the last trigger thought DT to re-spawn the site for capital Escalations, but if im running them in 2 Paladins and not even spawning the big boss, will the site still re-spawn or de-spawn the same? Even if they're only doable a single time per day before they de-spawn the same as capital versions, doing them in sub caps is much preferable to risking a 20b fleet.
350m bonus from doing the cap escalations from the meaty drifter at the end is in no way worth any corp risking a full escalation fleet, maybe if it was farmable like they are right now, but not when you can only do it once. Lets not mention the spawn rate for sites will be terrible still due to the amount of empty C5/C6's to recycle them. Corps that run cap escalations right now will be able to do maybe 1 or 2 per week with the current spawn intervals, 700m per week divided by a full escalation fleet is laughable, you'd be better off running high sec incursions in relative safety.
Im currently neutral to these cap changes as i dont actually run them anymore so have no stick to beat, these are just a couple of initial thoughts/worries that spring to mind. |
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Khar-Toba
That Ore Depleted Quickly
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 12:09:33 -
[61] - Quote
Can each capital just spawn an additional Drifter Boss at the end of the site?
This gives a total of 4 Drifters (which means lower the loot dropped to around 250 each) so reward for this will be 1.3B - If they behave like HAW Dreads (which would be great) this would force the capitals to stay to fight them, as the Subcaps would get popped!
The extra Drifter Bosses will also attempt to warp off, if the capital that spawns it leaves grid - chasing the Cap?
The Devs must remember that we need a reason to risk our ships... we Min Max for a reason, and IMO this is very similar to the whole Trollcepter bull! |
Anthar Thebess
1487
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 12:26:08 -
[62] - Quote
Khar-Toba wrote:Can each capital just spawn an additional Drifter Boss at the end of the site?
This gives a total of 4 Drifters (which means lower the loot dropped to around 250 each) so reward for this will be 1.3B - If they behave like HAW Dreads (which would be great) this would force the capitals to stay to fight them, as the Subcaps would get popped!
The extra Drifter Bosses will also attempt to warp off, if the capital that spawns it leaves grid - chasing the Cap?
The Devs must remember that we need a reason to risk our ships... we Min Max for a reason, and IMO this is very similar to the whole Trollcepter bull!
I hope that CCP will make WH place where nomads live. Group putting 20 citadels in selected group of wormholes just to have permanent living spot is not something that i would expect from "deadly unknown space" What you suggest is allowing much larger group of people to settle in a wormhole without any need of looking for PVE content outside of it.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
|
Stormbringer999s
The Golden Horde.
5
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 12:33:54 -
[63] - Quote
Dr No Game wrote:Well it was a good run, lads.
+1
Regarding the new Boss, as always, the wormhole community will come up with a workaround. I don't see it as being anything other than a power play by CCP in reducing the isk/hr of C5/6 w-space. Sure, it will be interesting if more than a handful of these things are let loose so to speak, but it would still come back to having the ability to generate isk. If you can't generate isk you're not in the game in any way shape or form.
You have to ask the question though, while the power brokers were mulling this idea over, did they ever ask themselves why do people bear/jew? I'd like to think that the majority of us would simply state to fund our pvp, but maybe I'm being a little naive. At least for me though it's not rocket science, if you take away my ability to earn isk, you take away my ability to engage in pvp, and that doesn't create content, it kills it.
Oh yeah, while I'm on the subject, this **** about farming your static to generate income and/or pvp??? Seriously, wtf do you think residents are going to do now that they lose the ability to farm their sites? Again, it's not rocket science, they'll simply run them. There won't many sites left untouched, hence farming your static will become a mute point. Maybe rage rolling for pve will become a thing??? : )
So with that being said, these guys, the power brokers, know exactly what they're doing, their ******* with our ability to exist and operate within w-space. this whole premise of creating content blah blah blah, it's all bullshit, but why, why go down this road, what's the end result??? There's something else driving this change and it isn't isk/hr or content creation. Any other consequences that come out of it, trust me, are all part of the equation, however discretely CCP tries to disguise them. Conspiracy theorist, indulge me please : ))
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
1030
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 13:01:59 -
[64] - Quote
So quoting from our corp.....
"Step 1: Warp in 11 dreads"
? how does this balance ?
No Worries
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Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
398
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 13:22:43 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s. The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
You are all bad at reading
Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M That's 342M for just the escalation portion Then add another 350M for the drifter boss Plus whatever the original site gives you
C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea. |
biz Antollare
Suddenly Carebears
123
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 13:24:55 -
[66] - Quote
I love the posts from people who don't fly caps, can't fly caps, don't own caps, don't live in capital wh space, but have plenty of feedback on this. |
Zeratul Stark
Talocan Exploration and Research
10
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 13:48:27 -
[67] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s. The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s. Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)... Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M That's 342M for just the escalation portion Then add another 350M for the drifter boss Plus whatever the original site gives you C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.
Pretty sure you're the one who's bad at reading, friend. The post says "38m per WAVE," not "38m per NPC." A wave is comprised of 3 (or 4) NPCs. You can hope that it means 114m per escalation wave, but the way his post is worded means that it's 38m per escalation spawn, not 114m. That means all 3 escalation waves would get you 114m, not 342m. Unless he clarifies this further, we're definitely not reading it wrong. |
Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
16
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:04:51 -
[68] - Quote
I don't know if I like this...
So big income nerf.... read HUGE!!
So first concern: Will spawn rates/despawn timers be fixed to increase the number of sites available in wh? Nowadays you get I'd say close to 1 NEW site a day (from my small c5 experience).
Pre- changes: You need at least one solid dread to run the sites, then 3 caps than can be place holders, risk in terms of losing the hulls increases but value decreases. If you get plus one solid dread and plus one solid carrier risk risk greatly diminishes, but you were putting 15-20b on the line (for a 600-700m payout site).
Post- changes: Need one solid dread, sounds like HAW will be able to do the sub-cap part. You can have a placeholder fax/carrier. So a lot of less risk. But as a corp mate said, you can warp all dreads, blap in seconds, and then fax/carrier (all depends on the alpha), HIC shoul not be primaried by drifter so, need one HIC to point the drifter and its done. Sounds doable under one siege cycle....
I encourage Fozzie or any other @ CCP to come do quads with some of the guys that ussually does (or try them in their current form by their own), and see how what I am reading sounds even less as PvE designed for caps... Btw, most problems with today's design is that npc spawn in the same place every time. Its what makes the sites doable with minimun fleets. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:11:21 -
[69] - Quote
Mena en Distel wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour. Dread have dpsa same for 2-3 rattlesnake at this moment on sisi. do you think that a problem for using 3 rattlesnake?
I doubt that 2-3 rattles have same dps as a dread. Maybe with the new dread subcap weapons, but the escalations and the drifter are going to be capital-sized so you would fit the capital weapons on your dread. No way 3 rattles will do the same damage.
But even if they did... to field three rattles you need three people or three accounts that have to be plexed. So yes, for efficient farming people will still use dreads. Three typical wh rattles are not even that much cheaper than one t2-fit ratting dread.
.
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Jack Hayson
La Luna Negro inPanic
365
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:19:30 -
[70] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? Yes, people do precisely that. Just find a red giant system and watch them krab.
The proposed changes will just disincentive using caps for PvE even more. Why warp in caps if all it does is adding a ton of EHP to the site for basically no payout? Just run the site with subs and let the drifter escape. Then probe it down and drop a single dread on it.
Cap escalations need fixing, but this is just pants on heads retar ded. If you want to stop people from farming the same site for days just have them despawn at downtime when triggered. You could kill hero dreading and bomber farming by randomizing and spreading out the spawn location. Add the escalation sleepers into the normal waves to force people to run the entire site instead of just farming the escalation. (If you have caps in the site the normal wave will additionally contain capital NPCs) |
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Luft Reich
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
139
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:21:49 -
[71] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:I love the posts from people who don't fly caps, can't fly caps, don't own caps, don't live in capital wh space, but have plenty of feedback on this.
Biz pls don't stop spewing salt this is great.
Edit: playing biz bingo, we got a corbexx callout, lack of capital experience callout, ccp bring short-sighted callout. With the free spot I almost got a bingo
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:22:51 -
[72] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we also migrate bigger part of blue loot into better sleeper salvage? Blue loot generate just isk from thin air, salvage is used to create new ships, and thank to this increase rotation of the isk in the system.
What would cripple salvageprices even more and kill lowend-WH income even worse than escalationfarming already has. If notr all the loot was blueloot but f.e. something used for citadelconstruction on the other hand.
I see a lot of people claiming using capitals would not be worth it because you only get a few 100M more. That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h
If CCP pushes the lootbalance back towards the escalationships or the normal site we will find us in the same situation we are in right now of not completing sites. Some adjusting might yet be needed once we have figured out how to kill those rats most efficiantly. |
Jack Hayson
La Luna Negro inPanic
365
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:32:35 -
[73] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote: That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h
Dreads get nerfed pretty hard with citadel. You won't be blapping sub caps with the big guns like you do now, so you'll need a sizable sub cap fleet anyway to clear the "normal" NPCs. |
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
107
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:33:34 -
[74] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s. The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s. Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)... Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M That's 342M for just the escalation portion Then add another 350M for the drifter boss Plus whatever the original site gives you C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.
'Per wave' not 'per NPC' So more like 114m for 3 waves plus 350 for big boy giving roughly 460m per site. One time run only.
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Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
16
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:40:29 -
[75] - Quote
[quote=Shilalasar] I see a lot of people claiming using capitals would not be worth it because you only get a few 100M more. That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h /quote]
That only has sense when you have higher number of sites.. in wh the cap is in number of sites not isk/hr... (but are caps, but one is more important imo)
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Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
16
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:42:32 -
[76] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote: I see a lot of people claiming using capitals would not be worth it because you only get a few 100M more. That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h
That only has sense when you have higher number of sites.. in wh the cap is in number of sites not isk/hr... (but are caps, but one is more important imo)
Jack Hayson wrote: Dreads get nerfed pretty hard with citadel. You won't be blapping sub caps with the big guns like you do now, so you'll need a sizable sub cap fleet anyway to clear the "normal" NPCs.
You can bring any number of same type caps at once... my idea is bring 2-3 HAW dreads and 2-3 Big guns dread... one group deals with the escalations (you know bring carrier/fax at range and cloak), the other deals with the site. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:43:43 -
[77] - Quote
Jack Hayson wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? Yes, people do precisely that. Just find a red giant system and watch them krab. The proposed changes will just disincentive using caps for PvE even more.
Why "even more"? People dont run escalation sites with subcap kitchen sink fleets now. Or those who do get absolutely crappy income from it because it's very low-efficiency and has terrible payout per pilot. Soloing c2 sites with a BC is much more profitable.
Red Giant is a special case and I agree it should be nerfed.
Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it GÇô same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.
As long as the drifter can be killed with a few capitals much more efficiently than with a few subcaps, there shouldn't be a problem. Capitals will be useful and thus, they will be fielded.
Even better, since the dreads will shoot sleepers that are capital-sized, they can be properly fitted for capital warfare and not for tracking. This means they will not be such easy prey for gankers fielding gank dreads. Now the ratting dreads will be more dangerous defenders.
.
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Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
16
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:46:25 -
[78] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Even better, since the dreads will shoot sleepers that are capital-sized, they can be properly fitted for capital warfare and not for tracking. This means they will not be such easy prey for gankers fielding gank dreads. Now the ratting dreads will be more dangerous defenders.
Also they are un-nerfing scan res while sieged............ |
Nameless2351
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:47:46 -
[79] - Quote
Maybe a bit offtopic and its an old idea but how about making it so that killing those Drifters increases the chance of wormholes connecting to that system? I feel like it would add a lot of depth to w-space gameplay. |
Alexhandr Shkarov
Swamphole Inc. Swamphole
31
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:49:41 -
[80] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it GÇô same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.
Frankly speaking I do not believe that the Drifter Boss has any place in sites that are NOT fully escalated.
All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.
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Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
16
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 15:16:01 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Quote:Will data/relic sites spawn the Drifter? The current plan is for the drifter to only spawn in the combat sites. The way that data/relic sites trigger site completion would cause some problems with the new NPC spawning. This may change however.
So in data/relics, until you can add the drifter, we keeping the same mechanics as now? or we getting these worthless escalations and no drifter? |
Wladyslaw Loketek
X Legion Against Probes
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 17:14:40 -
[82] - Quote
So basically you just want us to leave W space. Or are you going to add more ways to earn isk in WH? Because it's hard to sustain multi pilot corp in W space as is. At least you could openly call it nerf, not "change"... |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1080
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 17:47:51 -
[83] - Quote
Why not just fix the spawning mechanics so they don't regen during downtime? lol...
Not today spaghetti.
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Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
398
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 17:55:08 -
[84] - Quote
Zeratul Stark wrote:Obil Que wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s. The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s. Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)... Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M That's 342M for just the escalation portion Then add another 350M for the drifter boss Plus whatever the original site gives you C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea. Pretty sure you're the one who's bad at reading, friend. The post says "38m per WAVE," not "38m per NPC." A wave is comprised of 3 (or 4) NPCs. You can hope that it means 114m per escalation wave, but the way his post is worded means that it's 38m per escalation spawn, not 114m. That means all 3 escalation waves would get you 114m, not 342m. Unless he clarifies this further, we're definitely not reading it wrong.
It does appear it is 38M per wave per conversations elsewhere.
That seems exceptionally low for risking to add capitals to the site. I have a hard time seeing people using capitals in their static for that reward. It would basically necessitate that the drifter boss is beatable by caps only otherwise subcaps would be preferred in both cases.
Seems that the drifter boss should be spawned only by capitals and should be balanced for capital opponents. If there is a desire for a subcap drifter boss, make that a different thing with different rewards and stats to encourage subcap use in the sites as well. |
Chesterfield Fancypantz
The Golden Horde.
67
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 22:29:10 -
[85] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Zeratul Stark wrote:Obil Que wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s. The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s. Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)... Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M That's 342M for just the escalation portion Then add another 350M for the drifter boss Plus whatever the original site gives you C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea. Pretty sure you're the one who's bad at reading, friend. The post says "38m per WAVE," not "38m per NPC." A wave is comprised of 3 (or 4) NPCs. You can hope that it means 114m per escalation wave, but the way his post is worded means that it's 38m per escalation spawn, not 114m. That means all 3 escalation waves would get you 114m, not 342m. Unless he clarifies this further, we're definitely not reading it wrong. It does appear it is 38M per wave per conversations elsewhere. That seems exceptionally low for risking to add capitals to the site. I have a hard time seeing people using capitals in their static for that reward. It would basically necessitate that the drifter boss is beatable by caps only otherwise subcaps would be preferred in both cases. Seems that the drifter boss should be spawned only by capitals and should be balanced for capital opponents. If there is a desire for a subcap drifter boss, make that a different thing with different rewards and stats to encourage subcap use in the sites as well.
The caps dont increase the inherant value of the site, but will increase clear time. Especially if you use a HAW dread to cause the extra wave, as well as help clear the site faster. If you do the site twice as fast with a dread, its twice the isk/hr for the fleet. |
Chesterfield Fancypantz
The Golden Horde.
67
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Posted - 2016.04.05 22:30:50 -
[86] - Quote
Luft Reich wrote:Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:Peter Moonlight wrote:Mimiko Severovski wrote:I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie. Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve. The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships. This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about) Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved. But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ? Edit: CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming. Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6. What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent. Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that. So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away. IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets? You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations. And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none? -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course -NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED -Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed -Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer. I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE. The easiest way to add substantial risk to the changes is to make sleeper rats be plentiful and have lots and lots of points. Make going to the site impossible to get away from if you're running the site. Then even if they do see a new sig, they are stuck in the site until its gone. This is sure as **** not "more easy and less risk" then the current setup now. See for you chester, since you are dumb, harder sleepers makes it more challenging for you to run sites. For most of the population who isn't bad at PvE the danger is really in getting killed by other people. Adding more sleepers isn't the way to do it, increase the chances of getting rolled into by supersp00ky people by a factor determined by sleepers killed, sites killed, drifters killed something like that. Increase exponentially from a base "roll in factor" and boom SUPER DANGEROUS FARMING. Or just add more sleepers so you can die in site with rattlesnakes lmao.
Yeah. You could read what I said and realize my point rather then just insult me like the classless clown you are.
I said they should increase the numbers of rats in site to make sure that the rats have a constant amount of points on the fleet to make it so if a new sig spawns they cant just warp out, thus making them more vulnerable to PLAYERS. |
Samsara Nolte
Random Thinking Union Random Thinking
33
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 23:15:21 -
[87] - Quote
Well i-¦m somewhat left wondering, why those of us living in a low class system with a C5 static get to fight those Drifter Bosses. I mean Fozzie you yourself said they will be the hardest NPC ever designed for EVE, they will be reasonably killable by capitals and extremly hard by subcap fleet.
As of now the ones who finished the C5 sites whole where guys like us living in low class space who have to venture in our statics to make our isk. Because we can-¦t escalate the sites and we can-¦t keep those holes around for 4 days. So we had to bring our ships out of our hole, out of the protection of our home, away from the possibility to fast reinforce our fleet into the danger to let them possibly rolled out ... an still be barred from being able to make the big isk sleeper escalations offer. Then unlike the C5 and C6 residents we have to farm our static to get more isk than our towers burn through in a month.
So i have to say i find the changes somewhat intresting GÇô But i have mixed feelings about this - Sure it-¦s a good thing, that those not living inside a c5 get a piece of the isk pie which was exclusive to those living there GÇô which was somewhat justified through the fact that they might have to fight enemy capitals but the disparity was to large given the effort we had to put in in comparison to them. On the other hand, we have to fight this Drifter Boss everytime we complete a site with subcapitals because we can-¦t bring anything bigger and are even before that limited in the number of ships we can bring through the mass limitation of our connection. So i-¦m left wondering how you will manage to make this Drifter a challenge for those capitals while on the other hand not letting it-¦s power get out of hand against a sub capital fleet. Then despite it-¦s high value, it-¦s nowhere near enough to replace a lost ship - and the prospect of a fight which is gonna take forever against a single NPC which scrams is not very appealing and I don-¦t want us to become the guys who are gonna let the site stand with the remaining ship in it because we can-¦t hope to compete against this Drifter Boss. (And you should keep in mind there are those of us who are good at math GÇô so if to kill this thing takes longer than to run another site(s) worth 350millionen nobody-¦s gonna kill them)
What brings me to my next point - Have you considered that there might be corps out there who are going to spawn this drifter with malicious intent. I mean it might be pretty easy fighting a few of these by using capitals GÇô but that won-¦t be true for sub caps. So what does prevent a C5 resident from spawning Drifter Bosses and letting them roam the wormhole ? You can essentially get the Drifter Bosses to protect your home sites depending on where they will be able to warp to and even to fight potential aggressors, visitors and the like. (we are not aware of CCP might allow those Drifter Bosses to do ...) So you can generate an army of NPC to fight for you ... especially the low class corps will have no means to face them if they exceed a certain number GÇô from what i imagine might not be a high one. And if they even prevent you from crashing a connection to such a wormhole system by engaging your rolling ships forcing us to keep this wormhole around until it dies through time, then this change defeats the whole purpose for us to have such a static connection when only the C5 residents will be able to fully utilize their sites and defeat the Drifter Bosses.
And what you should at all times keep in mind is, that most corps living in j-space a rather small. So even if the Drifter Bosses can be beat by subcapitals it should only take a rather small number of pilots. Most corps can-¦t be expected to field 20 ships - hell there are a lot of us who struggle to field ten or less. Would be a huge change to barr the small corps from the sites C5 has to offer - Than as of now it is not a rare event to see 2 Pilots flying those sites - either in Tinker setups or Maruader. I don-¦t mind if the entry for those sites is upped a bit GÇô but when you have to bring 20 guys to challenge the Drifter Bosses most of us living in low class space with a C5 statics better start looking for another wormhole. Than this are near unachievable numbers for most of us.
And the last point is - Like some have already stated while this might be an up in isk for us that live in low class holes who occasionaly run C5 sites. It is a nerf for C5 residents. I-¦m not sure if you thought the consequences of this through GÇô it is already hard to get people to live in j-space, then let-¦s be honest it is work! In other parts of eve you sit in your ship undock an there is content GÇô but not in here. Here you have to put in hours and hours of combined effort to get your content and even now a lot of us are struggling or are even left far behind in regards of what you can earn by null sec anomalies the escalations of them and the earnings you can make doing incursion. So only from a finacial viewpoint the incentive to commit to a life in j-space is slim as it is. With the introduction of Citadels and the no asset safety in wormholes ( and by in my opinion substantially reducing the bar for evictions), and therefore the risk of loosing your assets, you don-¦t create more reasons to wanna live here on the contrary the opposite is true. And j-space Population density is thin as it is GÇô we don-¦t need another mass exodus of j-space residents. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5757
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 01:05:55 -
[88] - Quote
In principle, this sounds like an excellent idea.
However like all changes, the mechanics need to be thought out carefully.
I strongly suggest you design six to ten versions of the Drifter boss (sometimes one ship, sometimes more than one), make all versions realistically beatable with subcaps, and spawn a random version after each site but with a strong predictable bias toward Drifters that are tailored to the present wormhole.
For instance, one fight might be against three Drifters with remote repair capabilities, and might spawn 70% of the time in a Cataclysmic Variable, 3% of the time in wormholes with other effects, and 10% of the time in holes with no effects. One of them could be designated as the probe-able one if needed.
One boss should only spawn in C6s - others might be a bit easier and be able to spawn in C4s.
This keeps the fights varied and unpredictable, while avoiding the issues of having to commit capitals to your static.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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DG Athonille
Nothing on Dscan
24
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 01:47:43 -
[89] - Quote
Quote:Quote:If there will be more reasons to do more in the static would increasing the wh mass be possible? To allow more battleships through to help run sites? To allow for 2 capitals to go there and back? Quote:I'm definitely open to making tweaks to high-class WH connection mass if the community likes the idea. I encourage people to contribute to Corbexx's thread here where he asks that very question. I can go either way with this topic, depending on what the consensus in the WH community ends up being.
As an alternative that might balance concerns of smaller WH corporations with the desire for more PvE and PvP content, perhaps a new capital module could be introduced that would halve the mass of the ship similar to the warp disruption array on HICs?
Like the changes by the way ~ exciting, challenging, unique, changing the environment daily, and at the heart of "why WH?"
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 09:15:08 -
[90] - Quote
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:
Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it GÇô same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.
Frankly speaking I do not believe that the Drifter Boss has any place in sites that are NOT fully escalated.
I guess the idea is to encourage people to do more pve in the static instead of just at home. If the new system is properly balanced, we should see groups running non-escalated c5 sites in their static with specialized subcap fleets to kill the juicy drifters. This should make less ISK/hour than running escalated sites at home with capital support, but is evened out by the fact that you basically have an unlimited supply of sites, so paradise for bears who really like to pve. And good for gankers because more pve fleets to hunt. And those will be out of home so bigger chance to catch them before they get back to their forcefields... or (soon) Citadel.
edit: And because these pve fleets will have to be quite strong, and even be able to point stuff, they will be quite formidable foes for the gankers. This may even encourage mostly-pvp groups to do more group pve because the pve fleet is not just sitting ducks anymore. It is already a half-pvp fleet and can be fully converted with a few more ships. Maybe it will even be possible to effectively make ISK while baiting for fights at the same time.
.
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2178
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 12:53:46 -
[91] - Quote
At first glance, these changes sound exciting but after i took some time to think about it, these changes do not improve the wormhole experience as they should. I believe CCP goal with these changes are as follows:
1. To stop wormhole sites from being farmed 2. To encourage site running outside of your home system 3. To dissuade people from using capitals
I think most people will agree that points 1 & 2 are good design goal but I doubt any reasonable person would want capita wormhole gameplay to suffer as it will do in the new system... which it will because the risks are not balanced with the rewards.
How it will shape out
People will farm there static connections in sub capital fleets without fully completing the site, to prevent the Drifter from spawning. Once players figure out how to deal with the Drifter without losing a ship, they may kill the drifter. However, if the drifter takes too long to kill using sub caps, it will probably be better not to spawn it and just move to the next site.
It will be vary rare that capitals are used outside of a home system for two reasons - firstly because you can currently only bring one through your connection and have it safely return and secondly because the maximum you can home to receive from doing this is an extra 50 million.
So, what we will see is less capitals in space and instead, people will switch to more mobile harder to catch sub-capitals, that can disengage from the site and roll their hole at the first sign of trouble.
How is should be
People have been saying for years that wormhole PVE should be more interesting and typically site the following as good ways to do this:
1. Add a random aspect to site spawning to make it less predictable 2. Stop people farming the same site for multiple days 3. Encourage site running in the static
The proposed changes do not do what we have been asking for and in has a huge potential of ruining wormholes space PVE in C5/C6 systems. However, with a few modifications CCP's plan could achieve the above design goals.
Firstly, capital escalations should still be a thing that rewards bringing capital ships, while at the same time making sites more challenging. I propose that it only takes One capital to fully escalate the site. However, the escalation sleepers will come in randomly timed waves. For example, you warp a dread on field and the first escalation immediately spawns but a random timer also starts in the background, so that sometime in the next 3 minutes, the next wave will spawn. The combined escalation value needs to be enough to encourage you to risk your ship... 400 mil should do it (a 10th of the cost of a dread).
Secondly, to stop sites from being farm-able, the site should simply de-spawn within a couple hours of 3 sleepers being killed in the first wave.
And lastly, the Drifter should be somewhat random and it should be extremely more valuable. The appearance of the drifter should be chance based, as follows: * A very small chance (10-20%) of a drifter spawining if you run a site without capitals. * A medium chance (50-60%) if you use one capital * A high chance (80-90%) if you use multiple capitals
The Drifter should also come in different forms depending on your fleet. For example, there should be a high neut power one if you bring a force auxiliary, i high alpha one if you only have sub-caps and one with a super weapon if you bring multiple caps. The different forms should be a little random though, to keep us guessing. I t
Also i think the drifter should be valued at between 700m-1b to make it worth hunting them and to make up for the removal of the ability to farm the same site.
I believe that the amendments I'm proposing will make capital escalation far more interesting and actually worth the time an effort to run. At the same time, we would see more people doing things outside of their home system which will also be great for the PVP community.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Anthar Thebess
1488
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Posted - 2016.04.06 13:28:09 -
[92] - Quote
Maybe CCP could introduce new rig, that will reduce mass at the big cost of the structure. Capital size only, using sleeper salvage as material requirements.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
398
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Posted - 2016.04.06 13:42:18 -
[93] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Maybe CCP could introduce new rig, that will reduce mass at the big cost of the structure. Using sleeper salvage as build materials. Perfect for wormhole space - adding interesting aspect of wormhole travels.
Too easily gamed Install rig Jump hole Remove rig Fight Install new rig Return |
Anthar Thebess
1488
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 14:01:28 -
[94] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Maybe CCP could introduce new rig, that will reduce mass at the big cost of the structure. Using sleeper salvage as build materials. Perfect for wormhole space - adding interesting aspect of wormhole travels. Too easily gamed Install rig Jump hole Remove rig Fight Install new rig Return
Not so easy if the material requirements will be proper. If single capital rig will cost you 400mil, you will not destroy it just to farm some sites - hole invasion is totally different thing. But as WH will have now citadels, ability to field more capitals is good trade.
Just some thought, maybe this rig could use sleeper salvage and blue loot as production materials.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Eva Ambrosa
Bros Before Holes The Devils' Rejects
3
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Posted - 2016.04.06 19:53:26 -
[95] - Quote
As CEO of Bro's I mostly support this idea. Full disclaimer: We were in the midst of setting up a Jew hole in a c5 (we live in a c4 >c5/c4) when news of changes coming to escalations was announced, so we put it on hold.
That said, the concept of solo escalating dreads was broken, though I'm sad we didn't get to enjoy it (who doesn't like to take advantage of broken mechanics!!!), we're one of the young up-and-coming corps and that sorta comes to the territory with being late to the game.
If sites spawn more frequently that does sound appealing as one could conceivably run say 10 sites, spawning 10 drifters, then warp a cap fleet onto one of them (as the other 9 warp to defend it) and have a pretty awesome fight on your hands worth about 3.5b, sounds pretty fun to me?
Anyway, also excited about giving C4 space something new. We didn't move to C5 space before because we didn't think we were big enough, now we're big enough and I'm hesitant to give up having two statics. Give high class space 2 statics and I might feel differently but making C4 space more exciting by adding drifters helps too! |
Valyn Horn
Boys in Plaid
5
|
Posted - 2016.04.07 06:48:12 -
[96] - Quote
Most of my corp is pretty unhappy with the reduced income potential. We figure we may as well move to renter null and live the easier life. We didn't fit up a 20B isk escalation fleet to make chump change.
You should at minimum keep the original escalation income on top of the added drifter income. Keep in mind that with the old system of farming the sites you could have made 2.6B in the 4 escalation days (not including clearing the site on 4th day). So keeping the old escalation income + drifter income would give us a new site value of around 1B, which is a big reduction from our old potential site value of 2.6B. But still much better than the new proposed site value of 600ish mil. If anything, the drifter should be worth twice as much, or even a bil.
Maybe if you up the site spawn rate to compensate, and/or fix the problem with site accumulation in dead systems the changes would be viable. But all the stated changes, with none of the compensation just means we're moving out. We won't care that much. |
Eva Ambrosa
Bros Before Holes The Devils' Rejects
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.07 13:51:41 -
[97] - Quote
Valyn Horn wrote:Most of my corp is pretty unhappy with the reduced income potential. We figure we may as well move to renter null and live the easier life. We didn't fit up a 20B isk escalation fleet to make chump change.
You should at minimum keep the original escalation income on top of the added drifter income. Keep in mind that with the old system of farming the sites you could have made 2.6B in the 4 escalation days (not including clearing the site on 4th day). So keeping the old escalation income + drifter income would give us a new site value of around 1B, which is a big reduction from our old potential site value of 2.6B. But still much better than the new proposed site value of 600ish mil. If anything, the drifter should be worth twice as much, or even a bil.
Maybe if you up the site spawn rate to compensate, and/or fix the problem with site accumulation in dead systems the changes would be viable. But all the stated changes, with none of the compensation just means we're moving out. We won't care that much.
But do you really just live in wormhole space to farm isk? I mean, for most of my guys this isn't a significant enough change to affect the viability of WH space. It's still significantly more profitable then null/incursions, we still love the mechanics of WH space and the nature of PVP.
Even if you do live out here for just ISK, you can make 600m/h dual boxing in a static C5 with very little risk (1.2b in ships on grid) and limited or no setup time (don't have to roll/crit holes). Where else in eve can you make even close to that amount with so little ISK on grid?
That said, I mostly agree that the value of the drifters should be about twice what it is if CCP is expecting folks to use 6B dreads to kill them. I like using 10% as a general rule for w-space, ~10% of the value of ships used to clear the site should be dropped in blue loot and salvage. |
ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
337
|
Posted - 2016.04.07 19:15:47 -
[98] - Quote
Eva Ambrosa wrote:As CEO of Bro's I mostly support this idea. Full disclaimer: We were in the midst of setting up a [Isk Printing] hole in a c5 (we live in a c4 >c5/c4) when news of changes coming to escalations was announced, so we put it on hold.
That said, the concept of solo escalating dreads was broken, though I'm sad we didn't get to enjoy it (who doesn't like to take advantage of broken mechanics!!!), we're one of the young up-and-coming corps and that sorta comes to the territory with being late to the game.
If sites spawn more frequently that does sound appealing as one could conceivably run say 10 sites, spawning 10 drifters, then warp a cap fleet onto one of them (as the other 9 warp to defend it) and have a pretty awesome fight on your hands worth about 3.5b, sounds pretty fun to me?
Anyway, also excited about giving C4 space something new. We didn't move to C5 space before because we didn't think we were big enough, now we're big enough and I'm hesitant to give up having two statics. Give high class space 2 statics and I might feel differently but making C4 space more exciting by adding drifters helps too!
[Edited by ISD Gallifreyan] Lets just keep the racial stereotypes out of the conversation. It seems unintentional so we will chalk it up as a warning and let it go.
ISD Gallifreyan
Lt. Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)
Interstellar Services Department
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Valyn Horn
Boys in Plaid
6
|
Posted - 2016.04.07 20:47:50 -
[99] - Quote
Eva Ambrosa wrote:Valyn Horn wrote:Most of my corp is pretty unhappy with the reduced income potential. We figure we may as well move to renter null and live the easier life. We didn't fit up a 20B isk escalation fleet to make chump change.
You should at minimum keep the original escalation income on top of the added drifter income. Keep in mind that with the old system of farming the sites you could have made 2.6B in the 4 escalation days (not including clearing the site on 4th day). So keeping the old escalation income + drifter income would give us a new site value of around 1B, which is a big reduction from our old potential site value of 2.6B. But still much better than the new proposed site value of 600ish mil. If anything, the drifter should be worth twice as much, or even a bil.
Maybe if you up the site spawn rate to compensate, and/or fix the problem with site accumulation in dead systems the changes would be viable. But all the stated changes, with none of the compensation just means we're moving out. We won't care that much. But do you really just live in wormhole space to farm isk? I mean, for most of my guys this isn't a significant enough change to affect the viability of WH space. It's still significantly more profitable then null/incursions, we still love the mechanics of WH space and the nature of PVP. Even if you do live out here for just ISK, you can make 600m/h dual boxing in a static C5 with very little risk (1.2b in ships on grid) and limited or no setup time (don't have to roll/crit holes). Where else in eve can you make even close to that amount with so little ISK on grid? That said, I mostly agree that the value of the drifters should be about twice what it is if CCP is expecting folks to use 6B dreads to kill them. I like using 10% as a general rule for w-space, ~10% of the value of ships used to clear the site should be dropped in blue loot and salvage.
Maybe not ONLY for ISK, but the main reason behind WH life for us was isk. And maybe we won't up and leave, but it sounds like we may not bother with the escalations. We have a Static C4, so we may end up farming easier sites at a faster rate with less expensive ships. Which is annoying considering the amount of money we expended on our capital fleet for them to be mothballed. But isk farming will always follow the path of least resistance.
I imagine what will happen is we won't bother with our own sites as much and speed farm C4 sites more regularly. Then maybe if visitors spawn some drifters and accumulate in system, we will clean them up once in a while for some burst income.
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TurAmarth ElRandir
H.E.L.P.e.R
74
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Posted - 2016.04.08 05:52:23 -
[100] - Quote
Hope this gets answered... here goes.
We live in a C4 and run C5's for ISK... but we are not a large corp so while "Fozzie says" the Drifter End Boss will: (1) be killable by subcaps, just much longer and harder to kill... (2) still have the super weapon but will not "always" one-shot someone... (meaning it 'will' sometimes one-shot someone...)
As we are a small group, we have to make up for numbers by running fairly expensive subcap fleet comps. In our comps, the loss of one BS will run us a approx 1.3 bil ISK... We simply cannot afford ANY one-shot losses... and at a max of 400m ISK per site it would take approx 3 full sites just to replace 1 loss... and that's only IF you kill the Drifter every time. Without the Drifter kill @ 50m ISK per... well that's just untenable.
So what I am asking is...
"Fozzie, do you see this new mechanic killing off the ability of smaller (4 to 6 man) subcap groups to be able to effectively and profitably run C5/6?."
TurAmarth ElRandir
Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro
and Unrepentant Blogger
Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)=
http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2182
|
Posted - 2016.04.08 09:46:56 -
[101] - Quote
Regarding the drifter boss, this should be an npc that is vulnerable to neuts. If the super weapon required capacitor, we would have some protection against in by using capacitor warfare.
We could use bhaalgorns to neut the drifters and this coupled with the need to point the drifter, would make the ideal PVE fleet also a very capable PVP fleet.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Jr Citcit Tso
Sand Castle
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.08 23:46:29 -
[102] - Quote
Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote: The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.
If this is implemented, "Elite PVE" is dead. To nurf any gameplay 500% is to tell it's players go away! Did you mean CCP would drop the loot per site by 50M? That would be acceptable.
With this change CCP is also killing the T3 programs, 50M in sleeper loot is nothing and prices will skyrocket.
And isn't the loot tied to Citadel component manufacture also...
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Ben Ishikela
67
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:18:45 -
[103] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Quote:If there will be more reasons to do more in the static would increasing the wh mass be possible? To allow more battleships through to help run sites? To allow for 2 capitals to go there and back? I'm definitely open to making tweaks to high-class WH connection mass if the community likes the idea. I encourage people to contribute to Corbexx's thread here where he asks that very question. I can go either way with this topic, depending on what the consensus in the WH community ends up being. .[/quote]
What about the opposite of an higgs anchor. This would be great for getting Battleshipsfor roaming through WH. The Rig could nerf those combat capabilities enough. But leave the PVE side of them intact. Therefor better farming of statics possible. Therefor more interception opportunities.
spontanous example: The "Higgs Flywheel" mass -50%. inertia x2. totalhitpoints -50%. (shield AND armor)
Remove JumpFreighters/CloakHauler/CloakTrick and make a new T2Freighter(mjd&LotsOfCargo&moreTank, but no JumpDrive). Because we need more opportunities for piracy, escorts and decentralised economy! ...also Convoys.
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BambarbiyaKirgudu
Real Pilots Group
24
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 20:03:05 -
[104] - Quote
All these useless changes(drifters, decrease WH, citadels, delete Pos, cutting dreads, carriers) will lead many of the players exit from the game and online fall! All the more so what in the end of the year comes Starcitizen! |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
719
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 20:08:26 -
[105] - Quote
I just tested doing C5 Core Garrisons with two Paladins. At the end of the site suddenly this Apollo Tyrannos shows up... I had forgotten about it :D
Anyway, the drifter seemed quite passive. For a minute or so it neither warped off nor attacked. I guess he had no reason to warp off because he didn't feel threatened. I warped off to not get my testing setup blown to bits after one site.
Later I started another site. At the end of one wave the drifter from the previous site showed up. At first it seemed passive again but then it started orbiting me at insanely high speeds (950 m/s). And it seemed to have a really small sig too, my battleship guns missed it all the time. I guess this cannot be the final state, no capital would have any chance to hit the drifter as it is now. Even my light drones occasionally missed it...
I guess I could have killed it, it didnt appear to self-repair. But it was such a slow grind that I gave up and just killed the regular sleepers. After I finished the site... no second drifter appeared. Probably also not how it will be on TQ.
After a while I noticed the drifter did actually attack. One attack came from "drifter response battleship" and did 4k volleys, hard hits but easy enough to repair with no other sleepers present.
But there was another attack from 'Apollo Tyrannos' and this one without exception missed me completely although my Paladins obviously were stationary. I assume this is the anti-capital weapon. If it stays as it is now, it appears it cannot hit subcaps at all.
Of course this is just Sisi so does not have to mean anything. Still I would expect the drifter to be at least somewhat close to how it's going to be on TQ. But the current behavior where not even battleship guns can hit it properly does not make much sense, so maybe not...
.
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Helena Heffalump
15
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 21:02:22 -
[106] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I just tested doing C5 Core Garrisons with two Paladins. At the end of the site suddenly this Apollo Tyrannos shows up... I had forgotten about it :D
Anyway, the drifter seemed quite passive. For a minute or so it neither warped off nor attacked. I guess he had no reason to warp off because he didn't feel threatened. I warped off to not get my testing setup blown to bits after one site.
Later I started another site. At the end of one wave the drifter from the previous site showed up. At first it seemed passive again but then it started orbiting me at insanely high speeds (950 m/s). And it seemed to have a really small sig too, my battleship guns missed it all the time. I guess this cannot be the final state, no capital would have any chance to hit the drifter as it is now. Even my light drones occasionally missed it...
I guess I could have killed it, it didnt appear to self-repair. But it was such a slow grind that I gave up and just killed the regular sleepers. After I finished the site... no second drifter appeared. Probably also not how it will be on TQ.
After a while I noticed the drifter did actually attack. One attack came from "drifter response battleship" and did 4k volleys, hard hits but easy enough to repair with no other sleepers present.
But there was another attack from 'Apollo Tyrannos' and this one without exception missed me completely although my Paladins obviously were stationary. I assume this is the anti-capital weapon. If it stays as it is now, it appears it cannot hit subcaps at all.
Of course this is just Sisi so does not have to mean anything. Still I would expect the drifter to be at least somewhat close to how it's going to be on TQ. But the current behavior where not even battleship guns can hit it properly does not make much sense, so maybe not...
is the doomsday working for the drifter atm? |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
719
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 21:22:51 -
[107] - Quote
As I said, he had one weapon that always missed me, I'm guessing that was his doomsday.
Currently the drifter is not probable and not on dscan.
.
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Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards Chained Reactions
6
|
Posted - 2016.04.11 07:47:55 -
[108] - Quote
Hi,
I like how the new escalation will make it harder and challenging. But the isk nerf and the demand for more ships decrease the profit/risk way to much. You could say you only need 3 caps now. but with only 3 it's going to take ages. 2 fax 1 carrier 3 dreads (2 cap guns 1 set of sub caps). Were we usually have 12 bill worth of ships its going to way past 20 bill. All the more reason to just stay in red giants and use you know wat.
More risk should mean more reward, just making the site's easy and fast to run does not count, so double the spawns, 2 for each capital types.
Current fleet: 2 moros 2 nids 12 bill fleet = 750 mill in 15/20 minutes on grit
Future fleet: 3 dreads, 2 fax and one utility carrier. 22 bill fleet = 600? mill in 15 minutes (Siege/triage cycle time times 3. I dont think it can we done in 2)
It should be: 22 bill fleet = 1400 mill in 15/20 minutes, keeping the risk/profit time the same.
Then share it with 2 more pilots, or multibox/buy more plex.
The changes on the capitals guns make are going make pos/citadel defense way harder, especially for the smaller wh groups. Anny logie heavy group can take them down now. the only real use for carrier high slots is going to be capital neuts. I dont like using drones like ammo (launch them and by the time you see them melting the first few are already dead. The cap neuts will make good use aganst enemy caps (if the bring one), counterneuting bhaal's might even work, 5 neuts will hit even with the sig penalty. Just make it a heavy tackle utility ship, MWD, web and 3 point scram...
A Naglfar pilot shouts 2,5 meter rounds of hell at a 1000 meter long Bhaalgorn webs to stationary **** by a vindy or a pos web and i cant hit it for full damage? That's just pathetic! But the high angle one will alpha a webbed dictor that he can lock in 20 seconds (?!).
Also I don't see this getting more new players. It will just make ppl Quit eve. Same as the absurd plex prices.
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4849
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 00:27:42 -
[109] - Quote
Troubled Basterd wrote:Current fleet: 2 moros 2 nids 12 bill fleet = 750 mill in 15/20 minutes on grit
Future fleet: 3 dreads, 2 fax and one utility carrier. 22 bill fleet = 600? mill in 15 minutes (Siege/triage cycle time times 3. I dont think it can we done in 2) on what basis are you randomly upping the number of caps used??? new minimum fleet will be 1 dread, 1 carrier, 1 fax. can add in the 4th cap to get a second dread in there for fire power i guess. the only reason you use a 2nd carrier now is to trigger its wave, it really should just be warping in and out immediately. id also love to know why 6 caps cost 22 bil if 4 caps previously cost 12 bil. that maths seems loose to say the least.
pretty sure your times are also off. a full site takes ~12min now and will take a fair bit longer than that post change.
at the end of the day, youre completely missing the point anyway: yes, this is a nerf. yes, it is meant to be a nerf. no, the income post change is not meant to be the same as before the change. deal with it.
PS: im not even going to ask why youre using nids for pve....
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Luft Reich
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
139
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 04:16:26 -
[110] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Troubled Basterd wrote:Current fleet: 2 moros 2 nids 12 bill fleet = 750 mill in 15/20 minutes on grit
Future fleet: 3 dreads, 2 fax and one utility carrier. 22 bill fleet = 600? mill in 15 minutes (Siege/triage cycle time times 3. I dont think it can we done in 2) on what basis are you randomly upping the number of caps used??? new minimum fleet will be 1 dread, 1 carrier, 1 fax. can add in the 4th cap to get a second dread in there for fire power i guess. the only reason you use a 2nd carrier now is to trigger its wave, it really should just be warping in and out immediately. id also love to know why 6 caps cost 22 bil if 4 caps previously cost 12 bil. that maths seems loose to say the least. pretty sure your times are also off. a full site takes ~12min now and will take a fair bit longer than that post change. at the end of the day, youre completely missing the point anyway: yes, this is a nerf. yes, it is meant to be a nerf. no, the income post change is not meant to be the same as before the change. deal with it. PS: im not even going to ask why youre using nids for pve....
LOOOOOOOOOOOW CLAAAASSS
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
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Lyra Jedran
POS Party Ember Sands
9
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 04:50:51 -
[111] - Quote
So has anyone actually tried killing the new drifter BS with subcaps? |
Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4849
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 05:14:50 -
[112] - Quote
Luft Reich wrote:LOOOOOOOOOOOW CLAAAASSS um.... congrats on the basic corp name reading skills?
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
721
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 09:25:26 -
[113] - Quote
Lyra Jedran wrote:So has anyone actually tried killing the new drifter BS with subcaps? Yes, I killed one. It took forever to kill but was easy... because it didnt shoot back ;)
So the question is, when can we expect a version of the drifter on Sisi that resembles the final form? What's there now can definitely not be even close to what we'll get on TQ.
Right now also the drifter does not actually come to the help of his comrades. I was at first confused because the drifter spawns not at the end of the site, but in the middle of the second reinforcement wave. I didnt notice this before because the drifter does not move or attack until it is aggressed. This also obviously is not how it's going to be on TQ.
.
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Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards Chained Reactions
6
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 18:27:50 -
[114] - Quote
Sorry for the lack of detail. But i didnt draw random numbers. Current site running fleet:
Naglfar: hull+fit+rigs (ex implants) 4 bill Moros: hull+fit+rigs (ex implants) 4 bill 2 Nidhougers: hull+fit+rigs 2 bill each
Total 12 bill (give or take a couple of 100 mill)
For the future fleet i suggested more dreads and 2 Faxes. Spider tanking Faxes works a lot better then self rep in my opinion. Lets say one off the big wh group rolls in to your wh wile running sites and they see 2 high angle dreads doing -4000 dps each. Anny fox can tank this. So no reason not to drop one on them with dps/neut support fleet.
Keeping in mind 4 bill for a dread and 2 bill for a carrier and 2/3 bill for a fax. 3*4+3*2=22 bill.
Sites pre nerf take 15 minutes, if it takes longer you're doing it wrong.... The first dread that warps in uses 3 siege cycles and it still has to wait at the end.
TB o/
Ps; Nids becaus Winmatar... we were new to capitals and nid stats and looks looked good :-)
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4850
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 23:23:42 -
[115] - Quote
Troubled Basterd wrote:3*4+3*2=22 bill. oh I see. 4+4+4+2+2+2 = 22 in your world. my mistake.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Huffy Dragon
Another Corp..
4
|
Posted - 2016.04.14 09:33:35 -
[116] - Quote
The current version of the Drifter BS seems weak compared to old escalations. My estimate based on what i've seen is: Drifter BS: 500-700k ehp 1000 dps 20cap/s neut orbting @13km, 950m/s No doomsday
The dps and neut is a joke compared to the normal site. It is fast, having a web or two helps. It has tons of ehp, esp if you try to kill it with subcaps.
Can other peple confirm thse estimates?
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2182
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 09:38:33 -
[117] - Quote
I appreciate that the developers are busy with the Citadel but the feedback to CCP Fozzie's proposed change have been mostly negative and there is no indication that our concerns are being listened to...
Can we get some comments from CCP or at least the CSM to help move this discussion and confirm that there will be some significant changes to the original proposal?
In my opinion, the main concern is how the massive nerf to income results in an unbalance of risk Vs. reward and as a result, activity in wormhole space will decline.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Anthar Thebess
1497
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 09:59:18 -
[118] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I appreciate that the developers are busy with the Citadel but the feedback to CCP Fozzie's proposed change have been mostly negative and there is no indication that our concerns are being listened to...
Can we get some comments from CCP or at least the CSM to help move this discussion and confirm that there will be some significant changes to the original proposal?
In my opinion, the main concern is how the massive nerf to income results in an unbalance of risk Vs. reward and as a result, activity in wormhole space will decline.
CCP is trying to fix this :
CCP Fozzie wrote: The original sleeper capital escalation mechanic introduced way back in Apocrypha was (like many of the mechanics that ended up becoming staples of wormhole space) a bit of an accident. The escalation spawns were intended to provide extra challenge to prevent the sites from being too easy when farmed with capitals, but in practice they ended up becoming the major moneymaking source in the sites. There are several issues with the meta that emerged from the original escalation content, including the very unintuitive mechanics that encourage people to not complete the site so they can farm it repeatedly across downtimes. .
Current mechanic is simply broken, and was introduced to reduce the usage of the capitals, not increase it. For me those are good changes. People who desire to live in an unknown space without a local - will still do it. Some farming alts will move simply somewhere else.
Eve needs to be different ( for me still there is a lot of potential to make things more interesting ) and unknown space should be unknown not farmville.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Catalytic morphisis
Common Ground
126
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 10:12:40 -
[119] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:I just realized: Does the drifter have to have a single-target-dd? Could he maybe have one of the new ones with AOE ?
There is nothing new about AoE DD's. They were the Only type of DD there was until they got changed to Targetted DD's
Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
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Marox Calendale
Human League Eleven Signs Network
76
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 10:30:35 -
[120] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We do hope to eventually put a smaller version of this Drifter "boss" into some lower class wormholes as well, especially C4s. Low class wormholes are not high sec!
We already have lower income, why can-¦t we get the same interesting content? Just spawn those new "low class Drifter bosses" randomly in the systems and everything would be fine. 35m each and it would be like a normal C2 Combat Site, but harder to do hopefully. |
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2182
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 11:03:50 -
[121] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote: Current mechanic is simply broken, and was introduced to reduce the usage of the capitals, not increase it. For me those are good changes. People who desire to live in an unknown space without a local - will still do it. Some farming alts will move simply somewhere else.
Eve needs to be different ( for me still there is a lot of potential to make things more interesting ) and unknown space should be unknown not farmville.
That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space. Fozzie said him self that good income and capital escalations has become a staple of wormhole space... you can't simply take that away and expect positive things to happen.
There are already next to no conflict drivers in wormhole space other than the desire to hunt and kill and this change encourage people to stop using the big juicy targets that people love to hunt and kill.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Marox Calendale
Human League Eleven Signs Network
76
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 11:57:52 -
[122] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space. I think "nerf to income" is not the right term for what will happen. It is more an increased risk for the same income, because you have to use your statics instead of just farming your homesystem. |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2182
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 12:58:33 -
[123] - Quote
It's increased risk and increased time for let reward, thus it's a nerf... Don't forget you can't fully escalate the sites in your static.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4857
|
Posted - 2016.04.17 08:25:04 -
[124] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space. if by 'things' you mean doing nothing but farming in complete safety, then youre correct.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2201
|
Posted - 2016.04.17 10:22:18 -
[125] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space. if by 'things' you mean doing nothing but farming in complete safety, then youre correct.
So you prefer that people sit Citadel spinning or going out to HS to run incursions for their isk?
Despite claims it is already becoming increasingly rare for people to be doing capital escalations in EU/US prime... And you think decreasing income and increasing effort will improve wormhole space?!
Wormhole PVE should be challenging and risky but it should also be lucrative.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4858
|
Posted - 2016.04.17 23:33:24 -
[126] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space. if by 'things' you mean doing nothing but farming in complete safety, then youre correct. So you prefer that people sit Citadel spinning or going out to HS to run incursions for their isk? Despite claims it is already becoming increasingly rare for people to be doing capital escalations in EU/US prime... And you think decreasing income and increasing effort will improve wormhole space?! Wormhole PVE should be challenging and risky but it should also be lucrative. Have you actually paid attention to what has happened in wspace over its lifetime? Let's break it down.
Originally it started out with no one knowing wtf they were doing, as you'd expect, from where it moved into a very hostile period where the aim of living in whs was almost exclusively to pvp in whs at the upper levels of corps in c5-c6 space. C6 space was populated by almost exclusively pvp based corps who lived in C6>C6 systems for the express purpose of being able to run into other like minded corps more often to throw down. pve only groups who would not fight were not tollerated in high end wspace and were actively hunted down and evicted by the high end corps, often on a weekly basis. then people started figuring out how to run cap escalations. they figured out that forming coalitions of semi pve/pvp corps allowed them to rake in endless amounts of isk and have the artificial (artificial because these alliances typically had very limited life spans) numbers to fight off the large pvp corps, which they did. this lead to the general failure and collapse of the old power structure in the upper levels of wh corps, which happens, things change. what it lead to was a fairly long period of instability with medium sized corps floating from one alliance to another every few months is a seemingly endless search for the biggest blob behind which to hide while running escalations. pve only groups were left largely alone, people spent more time away on pve expeditions with skeleton crews than they did in their home system with pvp toons and wspace in general raked it in. this lead to an effective arms race between many incredibly wealthy corps who drastically reduced recruitment policies where the end goal was always raw numbers over quality pilots and eventually a few groups rose to the top and became the new power base in wspace. these groups decided that rather than fight each other, as the old corps did, they would ally themselves with each other in order to completely lock down their base of power, allowing them to dictate how high end wspace develoved. their primary goal became establishing an insurmountable isk advantage by evicting any and all corps, pve and pvp alike, from C6 space and PVE valuable C5s, ie: magnetars, and replacing them with either rental corps who paid tribute to be allowed to farm in those systems, or their own alt corps that they used to farm themselves. the hay day is over for this structure already, i suspect mostly since they really dont need any more isk, but the effects on this structure will be felt in wspace for a long time.
over the years wspace hase undergone many changes but each and every one of them was linked either directly or indirectly to cap escalations and maximizing profits from them. the time of escalations need to end. less people running escalations is a good thing, not a bad thing.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
180
|
Posted - 2016.04.18 06:20:16 -
[127] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:...Good stuff worth the beginnings of this forum...
You could also add that CCP has done a lot to make escalations easier (no need for a scanchar to look for new sigs, T2 siege, buff to all non-Rev dreads, etc)
People argue escalationrunners are the only content left for them to kill but forget that these are the reason wormholespace is in its current unhealthy state. In the same way nullrattingbuffs and incursions have turned lowend Whs into the deserted golddiggertowns they are now. Oh, and less escalations farmed might actually lead to better ribbinprices again.
On topic: CCP, pleae do not release it in the current sisistate. The sites and esp the escalationwaves are way too easy. Combined with the fact that the new carriers are OP once you figured out how to not loose squads it is a horrible joke. Same with k-space sites, running them with the new capitals/supercapitals is just printing money and seperates the game into people who can afford to run stuff in capitals versus the rest. While the rich, big or safe guys get 3 to 6 times the money... |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2201
|
Posted - 2016.04.18 08:11:05 -
[128] - Quote
That's a good brief summery of the history of wormhole space jack, even if it is only from a C5/C6 dwellers perspective.
Personally, i started from a C2 and worked my way up through C4, C5 and C6 space where I am now. The key contributing factors for me wanting to get to higher class wormhole was the isk earning potential and opportunity to play with capital ships. I'm sure that this applies to many other people.
Jack Miton wrote: the time of escalations need to end. less people running escalations is a good thing, not a bad thing.
You talk as if CCP could take away all isk from wormhole space and people would still PVP for to love of it. Nerfing income will only lead to even more empty systems and people looking to k-space for their isk.
Don't misunderstand me, i'm not advocating for the continuation of farmable sites. I'm all for the changes providing they increase the value of the drifter and the escalation sleepers, and change how they plan for escalation waves to spawn.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4860
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 02:08:54 -
[129] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:the time of escalations need to end. less people running escalations is a good thing, not a bad thing. Please explain why you think less capital ships being vulnerable to attack in space, is good for wormhole and the groups whose main activities revolve around hunting them... do you really take so much pleasure in blowing up defenseless caps? it's roughly on par with shooting an undefended POS or jumping 20 T3s only a hulk, but each to their own i guess. yes, you will have less free kills. I am ok with this.
to be frank, people only hunt farmers in wspace these days because that's the only thing people do i wspace these days. farm. ill bet you whatever you want that the vast majority of these groups would rather have actual fights.
Rek Seven wrote:You talk as if CCP could take away all isk from wormhole space and people would still PVP for to love of it. this 100% used to be the case. people used to live in WHs because of the small gang nature of the fights and the lack of random bullsh!t like jump timers and docking games. (not to mention local) we already see a few small groups returning to this mentality and play style as pvp only corps, I don't see why it couldn't be this on a larger scale again. the most fun ive had in WHs for years was in SUSU and the early days of iso5 when we were just f*cking about in random T1 ships fighting randoms. fighting people just for the sake of fighting them is the best reason you'll ever get to pvp. i know that isnt how you operate but i highly recommend you try it someday.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2204
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 06:31:09 -
[130] - Quote
Times have changed and nothing is unknow in wormhole space anymore. It's sad to say but the fact is, everything in wormhole space revolves around PVE now. The old PVP days really eventually deteriorated in to arranged fights, which I something I hate.
We have discussed this before but I've alway said I believe WH space lacks sufficient conflict drivers. PVP only corps are simply unsustainable in wormhole space without carebears to hunt. These groups end up getting most of their fights from k-space which doesn't help the situation.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Trinkets friend
Empty Vessels
3026
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 10:46:44 -
[131] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.
Hecates in a W-R, job done. Oh noes, you DD'ed my 70M T3D you bad Drifter, eat 24,000 DPS from my pals. Boohoo.
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14125
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Posted - 2016.04.19 13:23:15 -
[132] - Quote
Thanks for your feedback so far folks!
We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely. Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.
We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. As a side note, the Drifter does not doomsday in its current iteration, but the neuting power has been ramped up quite significantly to provide a significant challenge without the danger of "one shotting" people.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Sabastian Cerabiam
Seventh Element Advent of Fate
7
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 13:39:01 -
[133] - Quote
I have heard rumors about Caps being allowed in Null Sec escalations. Any truth to those rumors? |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
180
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 14:47:11 -
[134] - Quote
Yupp, that escalationwave just killed a carrier in under a minute. |
Luft Reich
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
139
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Posted - 2016.04.19 16:01:37 -
[135] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Yupp, that escalationwave just killed a carrier in under a minute.
Can you describe the experience?
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
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Zenafar
4
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Posted - 2016.04.19 20:45:07 -
[136] - Quote
Ok now I can't kill escalation wave in C5 with solo Thanatos :D (good) Took several minutes to kill me yet I didn't kill a single escalation BS |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
727
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Posted - 2016.04.19 22:16:47 -
[137] - Quote
Hmm, seems I got the broken drifter again. Just did another c5 anom and after completing the site, the new structure decloaked. I switched one of my two Paladins to tackling Loki, then attacked the structure and drifter appeared. He moved to orbit my Paladin but otherwise does nothing. No neuts, no damage. I'm shooting him for 12 minutes now and I guess it will take another 10-15 minutes to take him down. So significant HP buff from last time.
To the other posters: Were you killed by the drifter or before by cap escalation sleepers? Because my drifter still doesn't do ****...
edit: Woah, this drifter has shields, not just armor. His name is [no messageID312281] :D
edit2: Unexpected turn of events! After doing absolutely nothing for 15 minutes, when I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead.
I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now.
.
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4862
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 22:58:16 -
[138] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely. Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure. Nice. A good simple fix to cater for lower end PVE :)
Terrorfrodo wrote:When I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead. I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now. yeah there's no way a marauder is gonna solo a drifter, assuming theyre anything like the current drifters, hence this change being needed.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
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oResolution
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2016.04.20 04:00:41 -
[139] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:have large signatures to ensure that they can be engaged fully by capital ships Are you sure? Because these guys seem to like orbiting my Rev @ 15km, with speeds of 490-500m/s (which seems a bit excessive for "capital ship" targets.
I don't know how big their sigs are, but without support I'm unable to hit them with standard capital guns, and the High-Angle's barely scratch them.
I understood the need for a web/paint loki for the old escalations, since those were essentially battleships. But if these are supposed to be "fully engaged by capital ships" then that doesn't seem right.
Also, this is probably part of the same problem, but my Thanatos' templars were hitting for 15-20 damage per volley PER SQUADRON against these guys with their main guns. The rocket salvos hit fine, but the main guns hit these guys for LESS damage than they were against the frigates... |
Trinkets friend
Empty Vessels
3027
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 04:37:41 -
[140] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Thanks for your feedback so far folks!
We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely. Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.
We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. As a side note, the Drifter does not doomsday in its current iteration, but the neuting power has been ramped up quite significantly to provide a significant challenge without the danger of "one shotting" people.
While you're under the hood, can you make C4 waves spawn at reasonable ranges?
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Zenafar
4
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Posted - 2016.04.20 06:24:04 -
[141] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Hmm, seems I got the broken drifter again. Just did another c5 anom and after completing the site, the new structure decloaked. I switched one of my two Paladins to tackling Loki, then attacked the structure and drifter appeared. He moved to orbit my Paladin but otherwise does nothing. No neuts, no damage. I'm shooting him for 12 minutes now and I guess it will take another 10-15 minutes to take him down. So significant HP buff from last time.
To the other posters: Were you killed by the drifter or before by cap escalation sleepers? Because my drifter still doesn't do ****...
edit: Woah, this drifter has shields, not just armor. His name is [no messageID312281] :D
edit2: Unexpected turn of events! After doing absolutely nothing for 15 minutes, when I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead.
I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now.
Well... week ago i killed escalation and Drifter with solo Thanatos. Real easy. But now I can't kill escalation wave :) I tried just once but anyway escalation BS now have much more EHP, DPS, and looks like more powerful neut |
Zenafar
4
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Posted - 2016.04.20 06:27:59 -
[142] - Quote
Same story with dread
It was easy with solo dread in C5 week ago. But yesterday first attempt failed :) |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
727
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Posted - 2016.04.20 07:01:07 -
[143] - Quote
But I also wonder about the GÇ£target for capitalsGÇ£ part. The drifter appears to be way too fast for it.
What I noticed was that it completely ignored my Loki and aggressed the Paladin 100% of the time. Maybe just coincidence... if not, that could be the way to go... put some Capital as a Tank to absorp the neuts and damage while tackling and webbing it with something small.
Seems easily abusable though... capital could be again just one and the real work is done by small cheap ships fit for max dps.
.
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2206
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Posted - 2016.04.20 08:08:11 -
[144] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Thanks for your feedback so far folks!
We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely. Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.
We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. As a side note, the Drifter does not doomsday in its current iteration, but the neuting power has been ramped up quite significantly to provide a significant challenge without the danger of "one shotting" people.
So, to summarise:
1. There is effectively going to be a "push button" to make the drifter spawn 2. The minuscule loot drop and high neuting of escalation NPC make it pointless to escalate 3. The high neuting power of the drifter makes passive fits the obvious option
I love how mysterious and channelling wormhole space is about to become . Think i'll buy me a few Rattlesnakes... Cool game design guys! This is really inspired!
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Anthar Thebess
1497
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Posted - 2016.04.20 08:33:13 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Updates based on feedback:
Thanks for your feedback so far folks!
We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely. Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.
We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. This is very interesting change i know that i as for a lot. But can we have few different boss NPC that can spawn? If there will be always one type, people will find optimal way to kill it - like burners, and it will never be real challenge.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
727
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Posted - 2016.04.20 08:43:59 -
[146] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I love how mysterious and channelling wormhole space is about to become . Think i'll buy me a few Rattlesnakes... Cool game design guys! This is really inspired!
No way a rattle survives the drifter in its current form.
Before the last iteration there were at least two different drifters. I wonder if that is still so? Don't have time to make more tests atm.
.
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2207
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Posted - 2016.04.20 10:44:39 -
[147] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: No way a rattle survives the drifter in its current form.
edit: Also, even if a rattle were able to survive, the drifter has now so high ehp that it would take forever. I shot it with a 1200 dps marauder for about 15 minutes and just brought it to 20% shields. There was still full armor and structure. Killing it with subcaps is going to be totally inefficient. Only dreads will do it in any reasonable amount of time.
True but I'm predicting the majority of people will not bother shooting/spawning the drifter unless it is in their own home system... At in the beginning. Later people may choose to bring a dread into their static but is it worth it?
We are being pushed into running sites in our static, and for that, it will be more efficient to use a bunch of battleships to complete the basic waves and move on without worrying about the powerful drifter and escalation sleepers.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
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Posted - 2016.04.20 11:01:18 -
[148] - Quote
Maybe. That would be a situation basically unchanged from what we have now, right?
If there are no changes to capital/hole mass to allow more caps through, then any static-ratting fleet will be limited to a single cap anyway.
I wonder if there is a good setup to kill the drifter with a single capital. Like a dread that can survive one siege cycle and then be capped and repped up by a logi fleet before it enters the next cycle. Then we may see mixed ratting fleets with a dread plus many logistics and some tacklers, or a triage Faux with many dps subcaps. Sounds like a somewhat fun way to run sites, and a reasonably attractive target for a gank. Which may turn out to be a proper fight because the ratting fleet can be pretty good for a pvp situation too.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14127
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Posted - 2016.04.20 11:05:37 -
[149] - Quote
There's currently a bug that causes the Arithmos to sometimes accelerate to 200,000 m/s while fighting. We have found the cause and are getting it fixed right now.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2209
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Posted - 2016.04.20 11:25:13 -
[150] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: If there are no changes to capital/hole mass to allow more caps through, then any static-ratting fleet will be limited to a single cap anyway.
Yeah, the Nag and phonex will probably be the best options but to be effective, they will require a support fleet including reps, web, points and cap transfers... Where as you could put together 5 rattlesnakes capable of doing the base waves in under 5 minutes and maybe killing the drifter in around 10 mins?
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Da Frenzy
SukaX Drive Yards
0
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Posted - 2016.04.20 13:17:48 -
[151] - Quote
I ran a few sites last night to test out the new drifter. I used the double rr rattlesnake fit that has been circulating around reddit for a bit. I was doing about 2500 dps cause I was in a C5 mag. It took about 15 minutes to go through the shields, 25 min for the armor, and about 2 min for structure. The damage the drifter put out wasn't too bad, it was the neuting that really hurt. It'd take half my cap every 10 sec or so. At first I had to pay much more attention to my cap management, but about halfway through the drifters shields I figured out a routine that worked well but was very boring.
If the drifter is intended only for capitals, I think it is fine in its current itteration. But if subcaps are supposed to be able to do it I think it is very overpowered. You would need a significant fleet to defeat it, at which point you could just burn through normal anomalies instead. So the change to having it spawn when you shoot the structure is an important change. If anything, maybe reduce the ehp of the drifter if subcaps are intended to be able to kill it. |
Anthar Thebess
1497
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 13:31:51 -
[152] - Quote
Da Frenzy wrote:I ran a few sites last night to test out the new drifter. I used the double rr rattlesnake fit that has been circulating around reddit for a bit. I was doing about 2500 dps cause I was in a C5 mag. It took about 15 minutes to go through the shields, 25 min for the armor, and about 2 min for structure. The damage the drifter put out wasn't too bad, it was the neuting that really hurt. It'd take half my cap every 10 sec or so. At first I had to pay much more attention to my cap management, but about halfway through the drifters shields I figured out a routine that worked well but was very boring.
If the drifter is intended only for capitals, I think it is fine in its current itteration. But if subcaps are supposed to be able to do it I think it is very overpowered. You would need a significant fleet to defeat it, at which point you could just burn through normal anomalies instead. So the change to having it spawn when you shoot the structure is an important change. If anything, maybe reduce the ehp of the drifter if subcaps are intended to be able to kill it.
If you kill using 2 passive rattlesnakes - then it need quite big rework. Time needed to kill it was only so long, as you where on edge of his 'local reps' add 1-2 rattlesnakes more and this will make killing this drifters very easy. Why someone will bring capitals, when he can get 4 passive rattlesnakes.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
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Posted - 2016.04.20 13:33:20 -
[153] - Quote
So you killed it with just two rattlesnakes? That surprises me. How much does one of those rattles cost?
What was the name of the drifter? To check if I got the same one.
And yes, I assume the drifter is NOT supposed to be killed (efficiently) with subcaps.
.
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Anthar Thebess
1497
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Posted - 2016.04.20 13:41:36 -
[154] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:So you killed it with just two rattlesnakes? That surprises me. How much does one of those rattles cost?
What was the name of the drifter? To check if I got the same one.
And yes, I assume the drifter is NOT supposed to be killed (efficiently) with subcaps.
edit: And how did you tackle it? It should warp off if you didn't. He killed it in 45 minutes - using 2 rattles. Not effective. Bring 3 or 4 rattlesnakes - quite easy using small number of alts.
Yes this drifter need serious rework.
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Da Frenzy
SukaX Drive Yards
0
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Posted - 2016.04.20 13:54:43 -
[155] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:
If you kill using 2 passive rattlesnakes - then it need quite big rework. Time needed to kill it was only so long, as you where on edge of his 'local reps' add 1-2 rattlesnakes more and this will make killing this drifters very easy. Why someone will bring capitals, when he can get 4 passive rattlesnakes.
They weren't passive. They were cap transfer rattles with pith x type xl shield boosts. I also had high grade crystals and shield links. Could tank it fine except for the neuts which required some pulsing of the booster instead of constantly running it. I did not notice the drifter repping while I was shooting it. Each rattle was about 800mil tq prices.
I also had 2 warp disruptors on each rattle so I could keep the drifter on field. |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2209
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Posted - 2016.04.20 14:01:48 -
[156] - Quote
I'm calling it now! Fozzies solution to this, will be to nerf the Rattlesnake
Ps. as you may know, you can make a 1000+ dps, 2500 ehp/s passive tanked rattlesnake for around 950 mil.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Anthar Thebess
1497
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 14:11:04 -
[157] - Quote
Da Frenzy wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:
If you kill using 2 passive rattlesnakes - then it need quite big rework. Time needed to kill it was only so long, as you where on edge of his 'local reps' add 1-2 rattlesnakes more and this will make killing this drifters very easy. Why someone will bring capitals, when he can get 4 passive rattlesnakes.
They weren't passive. They were cap transfer rattles with pith x type xl shield boosts. I also had high grade crystals and shield links. Could tank it fine except for the neuts which required some pulsing of the booster instead of constantly running it. I did not notice the drifter repping while I was shooting it. Each rattle was about 800mil tq prices. I also had 2 warp disruptors on each rattle so I could keep the drifter on field.
I think that goal of CCP was not replacing capital escalations with something that can be easily run in 2-4 sub capitals.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
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Posted - 2016.04.20 14:15:26 -
[158] - Quote
So our tester here fought the drifter with two ships that cost 800m apiece plus 2.2b worth of implants in each of the pods. That is 6b on field, enabling him to kill a 300m NPC in 45 minutes.
So where was the problem again? ^^
.
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Anthar Thebess
1498
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Posted - 2016.04.20 14:24:31 -
[159] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:So our tester here fought the drifter with two ships that cost 800m apiece plus 2.2b worth of implants in each of the pods. That is 6b on field, enabling him to kill a 300m NPC in 45 minutes.
So where was the problem again? ^^ The problem is that you can scale the cost, and reduce time needed bit by adding 2 next rattlesnakes. Maybe we don't need 2 next rattlesnakes, but 2 pure dps battleships and 2 T2 logistic cruisers downgrading cost of the whole alt fleet to under 2bil mark.
Cap batteries provide resistance to neuts, guardians and basilisk could easily manage neuts especially when they get some cap from the battleships.
If people managed to find "solution" for the boss drifter, before it left SISI then it need a rework.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
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Posted - 2016.04.20 14:37:34 -
[160] - Quote
So even if you could achieve the same result with 4 alts in ships that cost only 2b total. That is still just a 300m npc in 45 minutes. That is 400m ISK/hour split four ways, either 4 chars or 4 players, doesn't matter, that is 4 accounts that need to be paid or plexed. That is ****** income, worse than some other known methods that require only 1-2 chars. So surely not imbalanced.
And it would mean that you sit in the same site for over an hour. if you see new incoming hole after 35 minutes shooting the drifter you go away with nothing.
And people doing it with many alts will be especially vulnerable to ganks because they are very distracted.
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2209
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Posted - 2016.04.20 15:20:51 -
[161] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:So even if you could achieve the same result with 4 alts in ships that cost only 2b total. That is still just a 300m npc in 45 minutes. That is 400m ISK/hour split four ways, either 4 chars or 4 players... That is ****** income, worse than some...
Compared to what? I'm not sure if you are saying the doctrine is bad or the isk payout isn't good enough.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Circumstantial Evidence
304
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Posted - 2016.04.20 21:23:40 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's currently a bug that causes the Arithmos to sometimes accelerate to 200,000 m/s while fighting. We have found the cause and are getting it fixed right now. The Arithmos is well-named... and very, very good at math involving large numbers. |
oResolution
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 23:49:29 -
[163] - Quote
So I put a Heavy Warp Disruptor II on my Thanatos to hold down the drifter (3 points of strength). And while he was ~16km away from me he warped away. We had a faction scram (also 3 points) on a Proteus the last time we tried, and it stayed on field.
Does the drifter have more warp strength now or do the Heavy Disruptors just not work on him?
Also still wondering why the Upgraded Avengers takes less damage from Fighters than frigates do... |
Nox52
Pterygopalatine
96
|
Posted - 2016.04.21 00:02:39 -
[164] - Quote
Honestly I don't really see the point in ******* around with the cap escalations to this extent. You're a couple days away from release and it sounds like you still have bugs galore to sort out.
The c5 and c6 sites really needed two things done: change the spawn locations to be random around the site - fixes solo dread, bomber and smart bombing running so that you need dread+loki+carrier on field. There you go, you nearly have a pvp fleet right there. Magic!
The other thing was to fix the bug that caused sites to stay for 4 days. Just despawn the bloody things an hour or two after someone warped to it. Fixes your prolonged farming problem. This way you can still run them in subcaps or caps but you won't be able to farm.
Oh yeah, c4s need the ****** up spawning ranges fixed.
Of course, you guys went in and "fixed" the gun resolution on dreads so now you have to **** around and balance the sigs resolution and the HAWs. Yeah gl with that one. |
Anthar Thebess
1498
|
Posted - 2016.04.21 07:17:45 -
[165] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:So even if you could achieve the same result with 4 alts in ships that cost only 2b total. That is still just a 300m npc in 45 minutes. That is 400m ISK/hour split four ways, either 4 chars or 4 players, doesn't matter, that is 4 accounts that need to be paid or plexed. That is ****** income, worse than some other known methods that require only 1-2 chars. So surely not imbalanced.
And it would mean that you sit in the same site for over an hour. if you see new incoming hole after 35 minutes shooting the drifter you go away with nothing.
And people doing it with many alts will be especially vulnerable to ganks because they are very distracted. No - what i am saying. It is a boss meant for capitals, that can be easily killed by 1 person using 2 alts in sub capitals. Mechanic that by CCP desire was meant to be challenging, just meet eve players.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
730
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Posted - 2016.04.21 11:01:25 -
[166] - Quote
I get your point. I guess the problem is that some combinations of faction ships and high-end faction and deadspace modules are so powerful that these ships are as good as or even better than a capital.
But as long as they are also as expensive, maybe that doesn't really matter. But prices fluctuate of course... I think rattles are much cheaper now than they used to be?
.
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
487
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:55:46 -
[167] - Quote
I like the the changes personally. But at the same time see the point of some concerns. The drifter spawn should be tied to caps IMO, as the defining feature of c5/6 is the use of caps.
I really don't understand what people are saying with "risk 20B need the current massive payout" where as right now, that fleet pays for itself in no time at all. Escals right now are broken because they are just too much isk. A nurf is not a bad thing. I could solo (with 5 accounts) 3 sites per hour without breaking a sweat, and only leave the dread in the site, the rest just bounce at 100km. That pays for that 1 dread per month you we typically losing. And then some. And i am a crap mulitboxer.
Just because you make a crap ton of isk doesn't mean you should or will be able to in the future. People risk caps outside WH space for less.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Oskolda Eriker
Beyond The Last Horizon Dark Pride Alliance
5
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Posted - 2016.04.26 14:16:06 -
[168] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote: People risk caps outside WH space for less.
Oh, those at risk of afk-carriers. |
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
491
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Posted - 2016.04.26 14:43:44 -
[169] - Quote
One question I haven't seen asked/answered is if attacking the Burner Drifter will give us a standings penalty, and what the long term consequences of consistently attacking them will be. If this escalation "boss" is just a Drifter to give it better AI, that's fine - but I want to understand if wormhole residents are being pushed to having interactions with Drifters, or if it's unintended.
Up until now, we have been able to choose whether we engage Drifters via attacking Circadian Seekers for Antikythera Element, choosing whether to run Drifter Incursions, or exploring and running the sites in the Unknown Wormholes. To my knowledge, doing so gives you a standings penalty which can make any of those NPCs hostile to you, and attack on sight, even in Highsec (please correct me if I'm wrong).
From a lore perspective it makes sense that constantly raiding Sleeper sites would trigger some consequences. Up until now, with the introduction of the Drifters mostly in K-Space, there were none. I just want to know what those consequence are. |
Alkar G'hmarian
Addicted to Shljivovica The Looper Collective
0
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Posted - 2016.04.26 16:52:53 -
[170] - Quote
I dont like this ad-hoc solution to "filthy rich wormholer" problem. Me and my little corp, live in C5 with no effect, C4 static WH. Half of the people have no idea how the WH combat sites work.. after a few days of doing capital escalations, number of combat sites starts droping, so, we came to a solution, of doing sites 4 days in a week, starting monday. Usualy, if you are working sites like that, you will have 5-6 sites per week (including relic/data sites). You will usualy have 5-8 people in a fleet (4 capital pilots, web loki, ecm BS, booster pilot, noctis pilot...). Farming one combat site gives you ~750 mil. ISK. Every forth day you will do entire site, and it is ~1 bil. So, you have 2.2 bil. for the first 3 days, plus 1 bil on the last day - 3.2 bil. ISK per site. 5 sites per week = 16 bil. divide that with 8 people, and you get the ISK earned per week for every pearson = 2 bil. That is somewhere around 280 mil. ISK per day...
And you want to tell me that there is no other way in EVE to make 280 mil. per day?
Ok, lets go a little bit further...
Every day, you need to prep before actual farming...
You need to close the stat and every other WH you have, you need to activate sites, prepare the warp in and so on... With all that preparations, and actual site running, salvaging, you are looking at a 3 hours job...
So.. 280 mil. ISK / 3 Hours.... Hm..
And you have 15-20 Bil. setup vulnerable in space...
Sometimes, there is a k162 WH with 20 online people - 0 ISK today... Sometimes, new sig apears on probe scan - GTFO... And on very bad days, you have a fleet loged off in your home :)
And now you want us to clear that 5 -6 sites to get the drifter??
OK...
40 Mil. ISK per capital escalation - 120 Mil. ISK.. Regular site aprox - 200 Mil. Drifter - 350 Mil. Entire site gone for 670 Mil.... You do that with all 6 spawned sites you have in your WH and you get 4 Bil. ISK. Per week... For your entire fleet...
I dont want to calculate how much ISK per hour is that... I will sell my capitals and get my alt to mine ice...
You get the point... This will only get people to abandon WH space (C5 and C6 first, C4 will follow)... I would gladly accept if CCP would cut the profits from farming... even for half... But this... simply doesnt make sense.
|
|
FeistyOne
13. Enigma Project
9
|
Posted - 2016.04.26 17:45:54 -
[171] - Quote
Alkar G'hmarian wrote:I dont like this ad-hoc solution to "filthy rich wormholer" problem. But this... simply doesnt make sense.
If your corp is so heavily structured toward dedicated pve times/days, then plex in you static in future with 8 guys non stop those 4 days and get even richer.. |
Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
17
|
Posted - 2016.04.26 22:24:52 -
[172] - Quote
After trying the site I actually like it, but trying constructive criticism I must ask if the stated objectives are going to be achieved. Does the drifter have at least 2 different behaviors? It looked like....
You can solo-dread a site and get most part of site-value, I can't see how this design pushes group play. You get no rewards for bringing more pilots. This applies mostly for the Naglfar, the other dreads cannot carry and refit between HAW and normal guns.
Maybe only if you use subcaps you going to want getting friends. You would be getting almost full payout. And raiding your c5&c6 statics might worth it. Rolling your static and closing undesired connections coming to the static sounds a bit of work, but doable.
I see total income not varying much if by finishing sites these rotates faster.
Also, might be bug: If you killed the whole first normal spawn + dread escalation, bringing another cap (FAX) would not spawn more escalations.
Greetings. |
O'nira
Hotline K162 The Clown Car
82
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 01:21:50 -
[173] - Quote
oResolution wrote:So I put a Heavy Warp Disruptor II on my Thanatos to hold down the drifter (3 points of strength). And while he was ~16km away from me he warped away. We had a faction scram (also 3 points) on a Proteus the last time we tried, and it stayed on field.
Does the drifter have more warp strength now or do the Heavy Disruptors just not work on him?
Also still wondering why the Upgraded Avengers takes less damage from Fighters than frigates do...
it has +3warp core strength meaning you need 4 points to stop it from warping away. |
Iam Cloaked
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 12:07:19 -
[174] - Quote
W-space, especially C5/C6 is these days plagued by renters and Goon pets. Nerfing it is a good thing. |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2213
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 15:16:21 -
[175] - Quote
Iam Cloaked wrote:W-space, especially C5/C6 is these days plagued by renters and Goon pets. Nerfing it is a good thing.
Confirming that wormhole space needs less people.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
Pinkylein
Rolling Static
7
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 16:37:13 -
[176] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Iam Cloaked wrote:W-space, especially C5/C6 is these days plagued by renters and Goon pets. Nerfing it is a good thing. Confirming that wormhole space needs less people.
Initial intention was not to live in one anyway afaik ... or at least "we never thought someone would live there at all" ... so if everyone leaves ... would be like CCPs initial prediction. :D |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2213
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 17:44:32 -
[177] - Quote
What a time to be alive
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4866
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 00:29:46 -
[178] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Iam Cloaked wrote:W-space, especially C5/C6 is these days plagued by renters and Goon pets. Nerfing it is a good thing. Confirming that wormhole space needs less people. it absolutely needs less people who only exist in WHs to farm sites. Especially in the upper level corps that can dictate the large scale development of wspace.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2213
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 05:50:04 -
[179] - Quote
IMO even crab targets are better than no targets... Besides it's not like people won't be able to farm wormholes anymore. It will just happen less and they will use cheaper ships.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
half san
Overload This
7
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 07:49:34 -
[180] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:FAQ (big thanks to Corbexx for helping collect these questions from the community): yeah thanks, for nothing. It is not enough that CCP don't care much about WH space, now our own people back stab us.
No farming-MAKING isk in i C5 and C6 wh space, but it is ok to have farming boots in NULL, it is ok when you jump in null sec system and local channel spike for your character soo boots can easy warp to safe, yeah that is awesome job CCP. At least people were playing EVE while farming-MAKING isk in WH space.
Pinkylein wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Iam Cloaked wrote:W-space, especially C5/C6 is these days plagued by renters and Goon pets. Nerfing it is a good thing. Confirming that wormhole space needs less people. Initial intention was not to live in one anyway afaik ... or at least "we never thought someone would live there at all" ... so if everyone leaves ... would be like CCPs initial prediction. :D Why should players make content in WH space? , perhaps because CCP does not know how to doit.
Please CCP don't help WH space any more.
Cheers. |
|
Dominous Nolen
We're Happy In Wormhole Space
183
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 17:24:39 -
[181] - Quote
[Redacted]
@dominousnolen
|
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
1622
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 17:44:35 -
[182] - Quote
Eh.... stuff was said.
Yaay!!!!
|
graves1091
Deathwish Squad The-Culture
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 18:53:31 -
[183] - Quote
Despite repeated explanations, the devs who proposed these changes simply haven't played the game in w space or don't understand the time/risk/reward aspect of wormholes. First off, yes the current escalation system is broken, can be solod in dreads or bombers often by only a few people. Often what happens is pve groups close off the static wh preventing anybody from coming in, and insulating their caps from danger. This is the real problem, essentially the reward to risk ratio is very high, and it becomes easy and repetitive to make billions. However, the new system wipes out ANY incentive for anybody to bring caps into a wormhole, probe out and collapse wormholes to protect them, commit several characters and billions of isk, for what reward?
Let's just break this down for a second here. It takes approximately 10 billion minimum in caps and mods for a full escalation fleet. Let's say there are 5 sites in the system, about average for a c5.
You run 5 sites in say, 3 hours. In 3 hours, that night, you will make 2 billion total just running the escalation waves and killing the drifters. You split the 2 billion among 3 people, netting you 650m. Okay, thats not too bad. Let's assume, since the blog is kind of ambiguous, that you can run the escalations the next day. So you still have 5 sites, but GUESS WHAT? That really cool drifter thing they added, DOESNT SPAWN the next day. So basically you can run the scalations again, all 5 sites, for a whopping 500m. whooooooo.
I don't trust CCP's mechanic of adding new sites to wh space, I just have a hunch feeling that the system isnt perfect and at most i will end up with about 6 sites to run at a time. It just simply isn't worth the time, investment, or commitment it takes to move characters into a wormhole with billions in ships just tied up capital barely returning investment now. I could triple box incursions and have a steady income stream and make the same isk in 3 hours without committing my characters to unknown space. |
Valorex1
Darkness Consumed The Devils' Rejects
50
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 00:05:07 -
[184] - Quote
Just killed our first one. It took quite awhile to kill it prob 5-10 mins. We didn't use any capitals just sub caps. We had to use 4x guardians to keep the subcaps hardners on. Insta capped out every cycle. Not a lot of dps out but a lot of hp. No dd was ever fired by the drifter. 300m in blue loot dropped. I had a 15 man fleet on grid t3's damnation and devoter. It accelerated to 1kms before we landed scrams and focus point. It still died very slowly with 15 1k dps proteus on grid. |
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
5
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 01:58:43 -
[185] - Quote
Valorex1 wrote:Just killed our first one. It took quite awhile to kill it prob 5-10 mins. We didn't use any capitals just sub caps. We had to use 4x guardians to keep the subcaps hardners on. Insta capped out every cycle. Not a lot of dps out but a lot of hp. No dd was ever fired by the drifter. 300m in blue loot dropped. I had a 15 man fleet on grid t3's damnation and devoter. It accelerated to 1kms before we landed scrams and focus point. It still died very slowly with 15 1k dps proteus on grid. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. GOOD JOB CCP. |
graves1091
Deathwish Squad The-Culture
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 07:03:34 -
[186] - Quote
Yeah wormholes are ******, as per CCP plan |
Valyn Horn
Boys in Plaid
12
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 02:02:31 -
[187] - Quote
We played around with the sites a bit. Two garrisons in our C5. Neither site spawned the escalation wave for our Minokawa. So we got the Dread wave, and the Carrier wave, but no Force Aux wave.
Also, the drifter structure disappeared after 10-15 min or so, while we had eyes on it. I don't know if that's by design or not, but didn't see any mention of a timer on that.
I also don't like how the escalation waves accomplish the full application of damage by bypassing game mechanics. We shot them for full damage with our phoenix, which has an explosion velocity of ~80 m/s and the escalation ships travel around ~300 m/s. So the understood missile damage calculation seems to be bypassed for these ships.
If that's the case, I kinda think that's dumb. If the ships are designed to be fully applied damage, make them behave as they OUGHT to behave. Make them slow, so they obey the known math of the game. Don't just add hidden multipliers and workarounds on random ships, I feel like thats the wrong way to go. |
Rex Tarezi
Kordos Vanguard
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 05:45:43 -
[188] - Quote
Status update on the viability of d-scan and combat scan? I just had one warp off and cannot seem to find him in system. |
Merena Enderas
Raiders of the Space Brotherhood Of Silent Space
4213
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 09:05:59 -
[189] - Quote
Solo Dread is still possible but i think only with naglfar because of the 2 weapons.
o/
Youtube Wormhole Stuff
Ingame Channel: Spacetwix
Wir rekrutieren! C5 Wurmlochcorp
|
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
573
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 09:07:43 -
[190] - Quote
graves1091 wrote:Despite repeated explanations, the devs who proposed these changes simply haven't played the game in w space or don't understand the time/risk/reward aspect of wormholes. First off, yes the current escalation system is broken, can be solod in dreads or bombers often by only a few people. Often what happens is pve groups close off the static wh preventing anybody from coming in, and insulating their caps from danger. This is the real problem, essentially the reward to risk ratio is very high, and it becomes easy and repetitive to make billions. However, the new system wipes out ANY incentive for anybody to bring caps into a wormhole, probe out and collapse wormholes to protect them, commit several characters and billions of isk, for what reward?
Let's just break this down for a second here. It takes approximately 10 billion minimum in caps and mods for a full escalation fleet. Let's say there are 5 sites in the system, about average for a c5.
You run 5 sites in say, 3 hours. In 3 hours, that night, you will make 2 billion total just running the escalation waves and killing the drifters. You split the 2 billion among 3 people, netting you 650m. Okay, thats not too bad. Let's assume, since the blog is kind of ambiguous, that you can run the escalations the next day. So you still have 5 sites, but GUESS WHAT? That really cool drifter thing they added, DOESNT SPAWN the next day. So basically you can run the scalations again, all 5 sites, for a whopping 500m. whooooooo.
I don't trust CCP's mechanic of adding new sites to wh space, I just have a hunch feeling that the system isnt perfect and at most i will end up with about 6 sites to run at a time. It just simply isn't worth the time, investment, or commitment it takes to move characters into a wormhole with billions in ships just tied up capital barely returning investment now. I could triple box incursions and have a steady income stream and make the same isk in 3 hours without committing my characters to unknown space.
are you mad because you died to easily killable sleepers with horribly fit caps in povar's personal farm lmao, i logged on and saw your corpses it was pretty great, in fact your mtu is still up, should come scoop your loot
ps these are still easily farmable by a solo dread with some out of the box thinking |
|
Maria Madeveda
Space Pioneers Odin's Call
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.30 14:51:23 -
[191] - Quote
Valyn Horn wrote:We played around with the sites a bit. Two garrisons in our C5. Neither site spawned the escalation wave for our Minokawa. So we got the Dread wave, and the Carrier wave, but no Force Aux wave.
Also, the drifter structure disappeared after 10-15 min or so, while we had eyes on it. I don't know if that's by design or not, but didn't see any mention of a timer on that.
I also don't like how the escalation waves accomplish the full application of damage by bypassing game mechanics. We shot them for full damage with our phoenix, which has an explosion velocity of ~80 m/s and the escalation ships travel around ~300 m/s. So the understood missile damage calculation seems to be bypassed for these ships.
If that's the case, I kinda think that's dumb. If the ships are designed to be fully applied damage, make them behave as they OUGHT to behave. Make them slow, so they obey the known math of the game. Don't just add hidden multipliers and workarounds on random ships, I feel like thats the wrong way to go.
Just for your info, the formula for missile damage doesn't include explosion velocity vs target velocity only (see : http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage#Analysis_of_the_Equation) but also the signature and explosion radius, so it is very well possible to apply full damage with a lower exposion velocity than target velocity. You begin to apply less damage if v(target) >= signature * (v(explosion)/explosion radius). |
Valyn Horn
Boys in Plaid
14
|
Posted - 2016.05.01 00:50:25 -
[192] - Quote
Maria Madeveda wrote:Valyn Horn wrote:We played around with the sites a bit. Two garrisons in our C5. Neither site spawned the escalation wave for our Minokawa. So we got the Dread wave, and the Carrier wave, but no Force Aux wave.
Also, the drifter structure disappeared after 10-15 min or so, while we had eyes on it. I don't know if that's by design or not, but didn't see any mention of a timer on that.
I also don't like how the escalation waves accomplish the full application of damage by bypassing game mechanics. We shot them for full damage with our phoenix, which has an explosion velocity of ~80 m/s and the escalation ships travel around ~300 m/s. So the understood missile damage calculation seems to be bypassed for these ships.
If that's the case, I kinda think that's dumb. If the ships are designed to be fully applied damage, make them behave as they OUGHT to behave. Make them slow, so they obey the known math of the game. Don't just add hidden multipliers and workarounds on random ships, I feel like thats the wrong way to go. Just for your info, the formula for missile damage doesn't include explosion velocity vs target velocity only (see : http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage#Analysis_of_the_Equation) but also the signature and explosion radius, so it is very well possible to apply full damage with a lower exposion velocity than target velocity. You begin to apply less damage if v(target) >= signature * (v(explosion)/explosion radius).
Right you are, I didn't account for the fact that sig radius is still part of the explosion velocity part of the equation, my mistake. |
MD74
Mass Collapse Ember Sands
36
|
Posted - 2016.05.01 17:36:58 -
[193] - Quote
So many sweet tears |
Luft Reich
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
139
|
Posted - 2016.05.02 15:25:01 -
[194] - Quote
Braxus Deninard wrote:graves1091 wrote:Despite repeated explanations, the devs who proposed these changes simply haven't played the game in w space or don't understand the time/risk/reward aspect of wormholes. First off, yes the current escalation system is broken, can be solod in dreads or bombers often by only a few people. Often what happens is pve groups close off the static wh preventing anybody from coming in, and insulating their caps from danger. This is the real problem, essentially the reward to risk ratio is very high, and it becomes easy and repetitive to make billions. However, the new system wipes out ANY incentive for anybody to bring caps into a wormhole, probe out and collapse wormholes to protect them, commit several characters and billions of isk, for what reward?
Let's just break this down for a second here. It takes approximately 10 billion minimum in caps and mods for a full escalation fleet. Let's say there are 5 sites in the system, about average for a c5.
You run 5 sites in say, 3 hours. In 3 hours, that night, you will make 2 billion total just running the escalation waves and killing the drifters. You split the 2 billion among 3 people, netting you 650m. Okay, thats not too bad. Let's assume, since the blog is kind of ambiguous, that you can run the escalations the next day. So you still have 5 sites, but GUESS WHAT? That really cool drifter thing they added, DOESNT SPAWN the next day. So basically you can run the scalations again, all 5 sites, for a whopping 500m. whooooooo.
I don't trust CCP's mechanic of adding new sites to wh space, I just have a hunch feeling that the system isnt perfect and at most i will end up with about 6 sites to run at a time. It just simply isn't worth the time, investment, or commitment it takes to move characters into a wormhole with billions in ships just tied up capital barely returning investment now. I could triple box incursions and have a steady income stream and make the same isk in 3 hours without committing my characters to unknown space. are you mad because you died to easily killable sleepers with horribly fit caps in povar's personal farm lmao, i logged on and saw your corpses it was pretty great, in fact your mtu is still up, should come scoop your loot ps these are still easily farmable by a solo dread with some out of the box thinking
Spitting fire. These sites are hella easy.
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
|
Carrion Crow
Dropship
27
|
Posted - 2016.05.03 02:41:29 -
[195] - Quote
Is this mysterious cloaking box meant to have any lore/storyline meaning?
It seems particularly contrived that a box de-cloaks and a drifter pops out.
I have to say the actual drifter NPC is entertaining as hell.
One warped off and we found it attacking a closing Hic on our static.
I think they make great pets! we might keep a few around for lols.
+1 CCP for the latest new fun wormhole accessories ;) |
Valyn Horn
Boys in Plaid
17
|
Posted - 2016.05.05 02:22:46 -
[196] - Quote
Carrion Crow wrote:Is this mysterious cloaking box meant to have any lore/storyline meaning?
It seems particularly contrived that a box de-cloaks and a drifter pops out.
I have to say the actual drifter NPC is entertaining as hell.
One warped off and we found it attacking a closing Hic on our static.
I think they make great pets! we might keep a few around for lols.
+1 CCP for the latest new fun wormhole accessories ;)
Really? I thought they didnt know how to find wormholes. |
FeistyOne
13. Enigma Project
9
|
Posted - 2016.05.06 17:33:19 -
[197] - Quote
Valyn Horn wrote: Really? I thought they didnt know how to find wormholes.
Can Confirm, found my first one camping a low sec exit i was using. He waited there around 30 minutes before moving on.
|
Catelyn Stoneheart
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
10
|
Posted - 2016.05.07 18:53:36 -
[198] - Quote
Hi CCP-
I stayed positive on the wh escalation changes and we have had great success running these with 3 dreads + 1 archon. They are pretty fun and have payouts that make it worth the risk/effort involved with running them.
Now, the new mechanic means that the sites don't stick around past downtime. That's fine and all, but would you kindly consider making the data/relic sites also spawn the drifter boss? It would sure be nice to be able to run the data/relic sites with the drifter boss as well. They just ain't worth running without him.
Please Please Please???? |
Luft Reich
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
139
|
Posted - 2016.05.08 22:12:06 -
[199] - Quote
Catelyn Stoneheart wrote:Hi CCP-
I stayed positive on the wh escalation changes and we have had great success running these with 3 dreads + 1 archon. They are pretty fun and have payouts that make it worth the risk/effort involved with running them.
Now, the new mechanic means that the sites don't stick around past downtime. That's fine and all, but would you kindly consider making the data/relic sites also spawn the drifter boss? It would sure be nice to be able to run the data/relic sites with the drifter boss as well. They just ain't worth running without him.
Please Please Please????
Yes
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
|
Jonesith
Bros Before Holes The Devils' Rejects
1
|
Posted - 2016.05.10 19:17:14 -
[200] - Quote
Does anyone know off-hand if the drifter will warp to combat anomalies or relic/data sites? The only times we have encountered them has been by pure chance when they are sitting on a connecting hole. Occasionally we follow them to planets but it is unclear whether or not the will go to combat anoms/sigs. |
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Fairfax Narmolaya
Grupa Operacyjna ZLY CHUJI
1
|
Posted - 2016.05.17 12:33:09 -
[201] - Quote
Hi there,
After killing 2nd drifter during a farm, 16 drifters landed at hole we came from.. http://prntscr.com/b4vuej
For safety, we didnt continued farm (subcapital fleet). After about 10 mins, drifters warped off into unknown space. I did try to combat probe them, but no results.
My question is - I saw them on the overview/grid, but never on dscan. Also couldnt probe them later on. Is that allright? How we gonna check before start farming if unleashed drifters are in the system and our fleet is safe? :P
And another question - will they disappear afer a while? Cause I cant see any solution to take them down without a loss :P
Regards, Fairfax Narmolaya |
Nox52
Pterygopalatine
99
|
Posted - 2016.05.19 06:59:40 -
[202] - Quote
bahahha that's just ******! |
Anthar Thebess
1521
|
Posted - 2016.05.19 07:04:48 -
[203] - Quote
Fairfax Narmolaya wrote:Hi there, After killing 2nd drifter during a farm, 16 drifters landed at hole we came from.. http://prntscr.com/b4vuej For safety, we didnt continued farm (subcapital fleet). After about 10 mins, drifters warped off into unknown space. I did try to combat probe them, but no results. My question is - I saw them on the overview/grid, but never on dscan. Also couldnt probe them later on. Is that allright? How we gonna check before start farming if unleashed drifters are in the system and our fleet is safe? :P And another question - will they disappear afer a while? Cause I cant see any solution to take them down without a loss :P Regards, Fairfax Narmolaya This is amazing. WTB similar thing for nullsec anoms.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
|
AlStorm Prime
Hotline K162 The Clown Car
2
|
Posted - 2016.05.27 12:29:17 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The new Drifter is worth about 350m, mostly in blue loot but including salvage as well. 300m in loot + some salvage. I never got 350 on Tranquility, but once got 150m in salvage on SiSi =\
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This new Drifter is completely independent of the site, and will warp off if not pointed. Our current design gives it 3 points of warp core strength, but that is open to change. The Drifter warps of if there is no target to engage. Or if he has ~20% of armor left and is not tackled. Also, I've been told that it's possible to tackle a Drifter with mobile warp disruptor.
CCP Fozzie wrote: Once it has left the site that spawned it, the Drifter can live in the system for many days, warping between celestial locations just like a normal Drifter. It is not removed by downtimes.
I would say - Drifters can live in system for months,or even longer, by forming fleet of 10+ size. Such fleet keeps warping between planets and wormholes. (A few times I've seen Drifters on the bookmarks for WH that were recently closed)
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We intend the Drifter to be probable with combat scanner probes, as well as visible on d-scan. Full disclosure: we've run into some technical roadblocks with the probing and d-scan part of the feature. We are confident that we can get it working and there's a good chance that it can be ready for the initial expansion release, but it's possible that it might slip to a point release. Is not implemented on Tranquility so far.
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Multiple Drifters can co-exist in the same wormhole system and will come to each other's aid if one gets attacked. In practice they always fly together and don't come into sites when a new Drifter is born and is under attack. It will be a flood of tears if you will fix this before fixing the Drifters lifetime and probe-ability. p.s. I reached the maximum amount of allowed quotes
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ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
353
|
Posted - 2016.05.31 02:35:58 -
[205] - Quote
AlStorm Prime wrote: p.s. I reached the maximum amount of allowed quotes
This is by Design to prevent Pyramid Quoting
Quote:14. Pyramid quoting is prohibited.
Pyramid quoting is a response to a forum thread that contains the quotes of four or more previous posters, sometimes with additional spaces added unnecessarily. This kind of posting often distorts the layout of the forums and can cause issues with readability for some users.
Since you are quoting the Same previous poster each time you may continue.
ISD Gallifreyan
Lt. Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards Chained Reactions
8
|
Posted - 2016.05.31 21:43:12 -
[206] - Quote
I cant seem to find aan stats/numerical data on Arithmos Tyrannos. Is it possible to find that info somewhere?
I like to check http://games.chruker.dk/ to EFT warrior a good ship/fit for killing him.
It takes a long time for 10k dps to take him down. But how much bloody HP does it have :P
Thanks,
TB |
Willi Walzwerk
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2016.06.14 22:20:44 -
[207] - Quote
Hello CCP, hello guys,
I have a question about the site respawning algorythm in wormhole space.
I live in a C5 wormhole and we really farmed our sites whenever we could. The point is, I dont really think your respawning system for the sites works, because its now a week we did not get any new sites like one or two in 6 to 7 days.
Its really frustrating because we really tested and tried to fly the new sites and we are now after many testing and praticing good at it but there is no real respawn. We farmed them, because you write in the devblog, that those sites in wh space will respawn faster, if we get more active and farm more of them. This doesnt work for us right now.
Dont know how the other pilots may have experienced this, this isnt a whine or something, i just want to ask you if there is some issues with the respawning code. I heard from some nullsec guys, that if they actively farm a system, they get a constant respawn of sites. Maybe u can make some adaption or check the code for wh space because we are pretty cut off on any income.
We have this problem now since about 2 weeks, but now its really bad for us because there is really no respwaning and we farm like every site actively.. At the moment we have 1 cosmic anomaly, and this is our static wh.
No whine, just a question.
Greetings Willi |
Hipqo
Tyde8
148
|
Posted - 2016.06.15 03:48:54 -
[208] - Quote
Willi Walzwerk wrote:Hello CCP, hello guys,
I have a question about the site respawning algorythm in wormhole space.
I live in a C5 wormhole and we really farmed our sites whenever we could. The point is, I dont really think your respawning system for the sites works, because its now a week we did not get any new sites like one or two in 6 to 7 days.
Its really frustrating because we really tested and tried to fly the new sites and we are now after many testing and praticing good at it but there is no real respawn. We farmed them, because you write in the devblog, that those sites in wh space will respawn faster, if we get more active and farm more of them. This doesnt work for us right now.
Dont know how the other pilots may have experienced this, this isnt a whine or something, i just want to ask you if there is some issues with the respawning code. I heard from some nullsec guys, that if they actively farm a system, they get a constant respawn of sites. Maybe u can make some adaption or check the code for wh space because we are pretty cut off on any income.
We have this problem now since about 2 weeks, but now its really bad for us because there is really no respwaning and we farm like every site actively.. At the moment we have 1 cosmic anomaly, and this is our static wh.
No whine, just a question.
Greetings Willi
It only works if most people in wormholes farm sites and complete them faster. Site spawns are region controlled, as far as i know. But one of the major points of this update was also to encourage static farming more, so that is what ccp wants you to do. Farm in static when there are no home sites :)
A life is best lived, to not step into your grave in a well preserved body. Instead, to slide in side ways, all battered and bruised, screamming, "Holy SH**! What a ride!"
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1517
|
Posted - 2016.06.15 09:49:13 -
[209] - Quote
So can we talk about how this change utterly failed to address the biggest problem with the old escalations?
Aka solo hero dread.
This is still extremely doable and all these changes have done is hurt the people who want/have no other choice to run in groups.
"We want you to farm your static more, so we changed the sites to take 5x longer with a very marginally increased payout"
Like right now it's probably more efficient to clear c5 sites without killing the drifter in a group as small as 3. The weight is completely out of balance.
Actually been doing c3s duo in gilas and it's better money than attempting home sites in capitals: this is just wrong and completely polar opposite of the risk = reward mindset.
We are risking multi-billions on field to run home sites in capitals and making less money than in a c3 with less than 1 billion fielded.
This also has the negative connotation of nobody being able to catch people running sites in capitals, something wormhole entities with high-class statics did as a common activity.
I see where you're trying to go by forcing people to go into their static to farm, this potentially creates more player interaction. However the player interaction you get these days with people who want to farm is yacht clubs and citadel spinning.
If you want meaningful player interaction to form you have to have the risk WORTH taking.
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Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
19
|
Posted - 2016.06.19 11:49:32 -
[210] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:So can we talk about how this change utterly failed to address the biggest problem with the old escalations?
Aka solo hero dread.
This is still extremely doable and all these changes have done is hurt the people who want/have no other choice to run in groups.
I just don't understand the design philosophy anymore honestly. Solo dread is not the issue here. It's CCP taking away 3/4 of what the old sites were worth in order to force people into their statics.
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
497
|
Posted - 2016.06.20 21:51:31 -
[211] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:So can we talk about how this change utterly failed to address the biggest problem with the old escalations?
I just don't understand the design philosophy anymore honestly. That is because your use to insane payouts in WH space rather than something far more realistic. People in NS risk caps for far less per hour than the old escalations. Farming the old escalations was plain broken.
And if a hero dread is not "worth it" don't use it. I mean where is it written that CCP need to make a particular shinny fit ship "worth it". One of our old corpies would rat in null sec with Blops Battleships. At about 2-3B a piece. And Ratting doesn't make even close to the isk per hour of a C5.
Stop assuming that because you did get billions a week that you deserve billions a week.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
22
|
Posted - 2016.06.20 23:12:02 -
[212] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:So can we talk about how this change utterly failed to address the biggest problem with the old escalations?
I just don't understand the design philosophy anymore honestly. That is because your use to insane payouts in WH space rather than something far more realistic. People in NS risk caps for far less per hour than the old escalations. Farming the old escalations was plain broken. And if a hero dread is not "worth it" don't use it. I mean where is it written that CCP need to make a particular shinny fit ship "worth it". One of our old corpies would rat in null sec with Blops Battleships. At about 2-3B a piece. And Ratting doesn't make even close to the isk per hour of a C5. Stop assuming that because you did get billions a week that you deserve billions a week. Please, stop talking that nonsense. Risk caps with local and safe deep pockets aided with multiple system intel network? 1/10 did not lel. |
Samsara Nolte
Random Thinking Union Random Thinking
55
|
Posted - 2016.07.08 08:55:13 -
[213] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We intend the Drifter to be probable with combat scanner probes, as well as visible on d-scan. Full disclosure: we've run into some technical roadblocks with the probing and d-scan part of the feature. We are confident that we can get it working and there's a good chance that it can be ready for the initial expansion release, but it's possible that it might slip to a point release.
Is there an ETA to this Feature - then honestly atm it is a pain to figure out if there are drifters present ... aka time consuming and therefore delaying a lot of activities.
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Willi Walzwerk
Signature Unknown
3
|
Posted - 2016.09.24 00:28:35 -
[214] - Quote
Sadly, this thread is dead. No response from CCP.
Drifter Bosses are still not probeable and in general , wh space content is dead. If we roll c5 static, we only find empty holes. There are no other people living in c5 wormhole space. Expect the big ones with 200+ members that are evicting their whole content because there is nothing else to find.
We wont find ratting dreads in c5 space,as we did before the update, because its not worth it bringing 6 billion isk for a site worth 600 millionen now. PVE corps lost their income, and in consequence, pvp corps lost their content. Improve higher grade wormholes for more content in wh space.. This system is just broken right now. Farm static ? For what risk to payout ? its just stupid and useless.
Keep pushing nullsec carebearism with bots in their botting systems, harder to catch than normal people.. And keep killing wormhole space. As the player numbers for your game running pretty low, you may focus on what the game makes really great. PvP. And for pvp there are always 2 sides. People who farm and get killed, and people who kill and farm with killing... But who can we kill when farming is not worth the risk anymore?
Just my sad thoughts.. |
Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards Chained Reactions
11
|
Posted - 2016.10.28 15:29:47 -
[215] - Quote
Totally agree with Willi Walzwerk. I used to farm in C5 with a big isk fleet (check killboard). Hard Kocks raped it and the income is just to low to try and rebuild. There aint that many of us left in C5 space so they can just wait with there dreads logged off lurking in the dark waiting for a new capital to ****. In the old escalation system i would work on a new fleet. Being one of the few means being one of the camped. But **** it, time for PI, rock shooting and looking for a new C3 or C4 wh.
STUFF THE SKINS IN PLACE WHERE THE SUN DOESN'T SHINE!!!!!!!! FIX THE PLEX PRICES!!!!!!! |
Olmeca Gold
Pleonexium Sustainable Whaling Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2016.10.28 18:17:46 -
[216] - Quote
We tried the drifter boss the other day.
I mean it is not even worth doing ISK/EHP wise. If you farm on your static and (thus have limitless sites) you just do the sites and not the drifter, else it is lower ISK for your time.
If it was worth doing maybe rageroll people still would catch some Rattlesnakes. |
Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards Chained Reactions
11
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 17:08:02 -
[217] - Quote
Jep, you need a **** ton of deeps to make it worth it. But the 3 Avengers are even worse isk/hour. Make then combat scan-able so we can run a site with subcaps and just hunt the boss down!!! |
Christy Reborn
Reborn PunkZ
2
|
Posted - 2016.11.02 22:13:58 -
[218] - Quote
CCP, how do you intend to keep your players, when you continue to make it harder and harder to earn some damn isk?
WH-space is already a very risky place to farm/live, yet you continue to make it harder for the solo players to make any decent amount of isk/hour vs the risk..
I really dislike this change, and im guessing that even with a capital, you cant solo these "end bosses" correct? |
Brown Pathfinder
Its a good day to die
13
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 09:56:15 -
[219] - Quote
Christy Reborn wrote:CCP, how do you intend to keep your players, when you continue to make it harder and harder to earn some damn isk?
WH-space is already a very risky place to farm/live, yet you continue to make it harder for the solo players to make any decent amount of isk/hour vs the risk..
I really dislike this change, and im guessing that even with a capital, you cant solo these "end bosses" correct?
Yo m8 drifter bosses are like incursions, gang / fleet content, just go to accept the hard facts sometimes PRo tip startup the launcher and select sisi - test server and go nuts and test perhaps? Maybe you can find the optimal way to run the content to wich degree its solo or non solo. Just bring probes and do the /moveme command to get started. |
Lis Aivo
Holesale Holesale Operations
6
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 11:08:03 -
[220] - Quote
The problem with C5's is "decloaked transmitter array" spawn time. The structure that you need to shoot to trigger the Drifter Response Battleship.
In "Core Stronghold"s that structure spawn at the end of the last wave. However in "Core Garrison"s it spawns right after the 3rd wave, and makes the group vulnerable to some cloaky ninja drifter spawners.
Basicly a covert ops frig can sneak to site then spawn the drifter and gtfo and watch drifter battleship killing the fleet that is running site. For that reason I think it's a stupid game mechanic. In Strongholds at least its manageable. You can allign before killing the last BS and if someone tries to ninja spawn Drifter you can warp off imidiately.
Just think how it would be if there is a same mechanic in incursions. Some random troll enters site and spawns mothership with a single hobgoblin. This is the same level bullshit.
Please change spawning mechanics enterily or at least make Garrison's "decloaked array " spawning similar to Stronghold so we can take precautions in Garrisons too. |
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Aitu
Foo Holdings AL3XAND3R.
7
|
Posted - 2016.12.26 21:51:15 -
[221] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote: People in NS risk caps
That's my new favorite joke. Thanks man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M |
Nameless Centuriu
Black Goo-gle
0
|
Posted - 2017.01.19 14:54:45 -
[222] - Quote
http://prnt.sc/dxnvyc
I think 26 Drifter Battleships camping a wormhole is not a bug?^^ They don't move since downtime.. |
Janeway84
Nothing on Dscan
185
|
Posted - 2017.01.26 07:54:19 -
[223] - Quote
Nameless Centuriu wrote:http://prnt.sc/dxnvyc
I think 26 Drifter Battleships camping a wormhole is not a bug?^^ They don't move since downtime..
Its actually a feature since the citadels expansion! Usually they warp between celestials and wormholes that players warp to alot. |
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2017.02.06 13:41:17 -
[224] - Quote
Just kill them with the citadel? zero risk for anyone and you get free money! |
AlStorm Prime
Hotline K162 The Clown Car
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.13 14:34:04 -
[225] - Quote
Arithmos Tyrannos is not neuting anymore
How can I switch this 'easy mode' back to normal? |
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