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Poisoning the Chalice: Smartbombs as a Counter to Nos.

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Dragonrazor Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.17 01:06:00 - [31] Edited by: Dragonrazor on 17/02/2007 01:04:11 I hate to say it, but I like the idea of removing nos entirely more myself... OR, Nos effects should be reduced a lot more. Consider: If I nos you for 30 cap with a medium t1 nos, thats actually a difference of 60 cap between you and me after the cycle... You lose 30, I gain 30, thats a total of 60 cap difference in favor of the nosser... Another way of looking at it, is I gain aprox 5 cap per second recharge bonus, while you suffer a 5 cap per second drain. If you look, Noses have a shorter activation time than neuts, for tech level 1, the nos has exactly half the cycle time... This means in the same time you fire a neut once, the nos fires twice... Meaning an effective 120 Cap difference... at no cost to the nos user. Thats only 30 less than the neut... Now lets look at neutralizers... These IMHO are the real broken part of the situation. The neutralizers cost the attacker, and the defender the SAME amount of cap in the cycle... Nobody gains anything from the exchange... (IMHO these are fairly useless by themselves as is... but with nos's being in the game Neuts really are pointless). In the same time as it would take to fire two medium nos's cycles... I can fire a medium neut one time... While I kill your cap by 30 more points in the same time, I gain nothing for this... as I lose just as much cap as you do... Sure, some one in a gang could fit a neut setup as thier primary offense... but uhm... yeah... not likely. As a fix I would up the neutralizers effectiveness by lowering or all but removing the cap activation cost to run the module... Then remove the nos, OR severely drop the nos's suck capability... IMHO, the effect should be like this: The neutralizer should be the more efficient module, beccause it has an activation cost, it should be the better module. IT has a pro, and a con. you can't run the neut forever and a tank, or your guns unless they use no cap to begin with... Even if you lower the cap cost per cycle by quite a bit... The nos should be the least efficient module because it has no drawbacks... Why IMHO is it ok for the neutralizer to replace the nos as the cap drain/neut module? Simple, the neutralizer, if it was more efficient, would still drain the attackers cap (even if less), and thus it would make it more balanced because the attacker couldn't keep it up forever... This will encourage people to limit neutralizers to something thier own cap can manage... It also doesn't require huge alterations to anything except a few numbers for a couple of modules... (IE you can leave nosses in if you nerf them a tad). those ships with nos bonuses, could be special cases where thier bonus allows them to use the nos on a par with how it's used now... So I say, slightly nerf noses, and Buff neutralizers... Example buff for neut: Medium Neut TI: Cycle 12 seconds. Cap neut: 150 Activation cost: 100 Example nerf for nos: Medium nos TI: Cycle time 6 seconds. Cap drain 20. Those examples are just that... not intended final numbers... Anyway what do you all think? ******************************************* "Stars Die... Empires fall... We are dust..." *******************************************
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.17 01:23:00 - [32] Did u include energy emission skill into your calculation ? -------- New drone ui
Dragonrazor Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.17 01:38:00 - [33] No I didn't think about skills, I was just looking at base costs... But even with emissions skills right now, it's not worth it to use neuts... or else people might be doing it... But if they were, we wouldn't have people whining about nos, they would be whining about neuts... The key is to nerf nosses a bit, and buff neuts a bit so that player preference is for the module that costs something to activate, and the nosses become the specialized piece of equipment... Meant especialy for those ships that have the bonuses for them. the same way drones are treated, and missiles, and shields, and armor, and so on. A word on big vs small: One thing that annoys me is that in EVE, ship class should have value at all sizes. Before noses got to be flavor of the month, Battleships had to have backup, or drones, or other variable countermeasures to successfuly deal with a good frigate/group of smaller ships. Now, the easiest way is just fit a nos or 6... Now I know all about timing your frigates nos cycles to retain enough power to stay alive, but this isn't a real solution, it's a bandaid fix... Similar to when the Caldari could fit cruise missiles on frigates, the only real counter was to either use the same ships/fighting style, or to have ALL the luck and not get webbed down and manage to not get shot at till your target was almost dead. Taranis Vs Crow comes to mind as a strange balance... Taranis could indeed win against a crow with cruise missiles, but it came down to split second timing, and more than a little luck. Losing to crows didn't bother me, what bothered me was how futile it was for any other ship other than the crow... to fight a crow... That is imbalance IMHO by definition. So if we use the Neutralizer suggestion I just made above, and then tweak both nos (if they stay in the game, which I am sure they would), and Neutralizers to have optimal, falloff, tracking and sig resolution or some combination of those factors, we could quite easily balance these modules to smaller ships as well... Smaller ships should also benefit from this by way of greater effect when using these modules on larger ships. for example, a small nos currently gets 8 cap per 3 seconds (TI base). A large ship will not be likely to notice this drain even with a full high slot setup of small nosses... While using a neut on a small frig is suicide ATM(40 cap neutralized, 40 cap activation, 6 second cycle... Not many other small modules have such silly costs to operate... Remember thats a cost of 6.6+ cap per second to the frig using the neut, I don't know many frigs that can support such a drain for more than a few seconds... And since they gain nothing for this in return, it's a LOSE LOSE situation. So I propose: When nossing or neuting a larger class ship, you gain some bonus to nossing and neuting... Not a very giant one... just sauce for the goose... When a frig uses these modules on a cuirser, Instead of sucking 8 cap per cycle for nos... make it suck 10... Instead of costing 40 cap to run the neut, make it cost 26, and neutralize 50... It's not enough to make a HUGE difference, but goes at least part way to making it so small ships arn't smoked, but still not an I win button. Big ships should still drain and neutralize more vs the smaller ships, but it should be something a smaller ship can hope to deal with... Right now. 2-3 BS nos or, BS nos cycles, is all it takes, or one BS neut to completely power down a frigate... thats my 2 ISK. ******************************************* "Stars Die... Empires fall... We are dust..." *******************************************
NoNah	Posted - 2007.02.17 09:40:00 - [34] Yes, quite true, one BS nos is enough to handicap a frigate. And a large blaster will seriously hurt the frigate, this is unfair. Small blasters should do as much relative damage to the BS as the large does to the frig. Seriously though, frigs are small and cheap. BS's are not, in comparisson. You can spend a 100 frigs on a single BS, and still be the victor if everything dies. With that being said, pilots are the largest resource of a ship. As for your claims of neuts being equal - Linkage . One important part of it however, is the fact that NOS requires no cap to be used, neuts does. It would probably be more balanced if there was a 1.5:1 relation. Nosing a foe, would steal 1 and cost 1.25 or remove 1.5 and cost 1. Before skills, obviously.(And yes, this would require some rebalancing of nosships). Or possibly have it steal a percentage of the cap. If a large NOS steals 5% of the opponents available cap for a cost of say 150? The NOS will still criple your opponent, and aid yourself, though you wont be able to make a lockdown, purely with NOS. Accompanied by some neuts(wich still has a static number), this would however be an easy task. If your opponent are Neuting you, you cant use your NOS as you wont have the 120 cap needed. You can use boosters to get your cap back up, and indeed steal some, but if the opponent is under 2400 cap(Half) you will both loose cap of it. This would generally do frigates immune to large nos. This would still render BS's somewhat resistant to small NOS(Except for hundreds of them). This would buff neuts, you wont be able to defend yourself from frigates, by fitting NOS, neuts will do what nos did - but slightly damage the BS aswell. With proper balancing, NOS will still be an aid when battling equally sized ships. Might be easier to balance if the NOS is a tad stronger, and the SB idea is implented aswell. 12% per nos, with stacking penalty. Damage returned if SB is activated during duration of the NOS.
Wild Rho Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:47:00 - [35] Edited by: Wild Rho on 17/02/2007 10:43:20 OP: Very nice idea. Not much else I can say. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2007.02.17 11:13:00 - [36] Edited by: Raem Civrie on 17/02/2007 11:10:38 I like it. Dunno how the ideal implementation would be, but I always did see smartbombs as inherent "counter" weapons. Used to be that you could use them to counter missiles, but those days are gone. Smartbombs need some love, and it should come in the form of increased utility, like proposed here, rather than some sort of damage or range bonus. ---- All you do is bark. You never meow.
Elvarien Caldari Legion of Corpses Federation Of united Corps	Posted - 2007.02.17 12:06:00 - [37] This is a great solution to solve 2 problems I dig this ****. /signed >--- Its great being caldari aint it.
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.17 12:26:00 - [38] Great idea, but remember that smartbombs can't be used in empire so maybe a new module "energy burst" or something is needed. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.17 12:53:00 - [39] Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/02/2007 12:52:20 Great idea! Neuts to nail the super capitals instead! Still a slight buff to super capitals though. Perhaps neuts could be more effective against super capitals to compensate, or something... Originally by: Mitchman Great idea, but remember that smartbombs can't be used in empire so maybe a new module "energy burst" or something is needed. He makes a good point. edit: Take note Tuxford!
Phish1 Liberty Forces Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 13:31:00 - [40] dont fight in an empire war and use smartbombs then!

Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:49:00 - [41] this idea would make drones usless as they would get popped.. cos everyone would be carrying smartbombs then..
Katamarino Blazing Angels Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:56:00 - [42] It would take AGES to pop a decently skilled up set of drones with a single moderately sized smartbomb...
Assassa Minmatar Fuels Of Armageddon	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:15:00 - [43] As much as i like the idea and your thinking i think Smart Bombs are under ratted. True, they not used a lot because they at most of the time useless. But thats where they get good: I met once a typhoon that 2 of us were tackling, while support was coming. He detonated a large SB. 1 of us inta popped, the other trust me didn't stay around too long. That did totally saved his ship. Why because we assume no one fits SB, sometime, just in rare occasions we are proven wrong, and it hurts. Still, i like your idea. But amount of damages shouldn't be "too" high since then no one would use NOS and everyone would use SB
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:18:00 - [44] Very interesting Idea, certainly viable as resulting balancing issues can be resolved without changing all that much! I am all for it!
Cavy Dan Gallente Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.02.17 19:09:00 - [45] It will be called: The Stuprare-maneuver. "Guy just went Stuprare on me!" ----------------------------------------------- My Band's new Demo: Linkage to Site
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:05:00 - [46] Originally by: Almarez What happens to a ship like the Curse or Pilgrim then? Risk? _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender Got Corp?
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Almarez What happens to a ship like the Curse or Pilgrim then? Risk? Being specialised NOS ships, they can simply not be affected in the way normal ships are. Meaning no feedback damage, or very much reduced based on skill!
Benco97 Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:42:00 - [48] Nice, I like it. Make it so CCP. "MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:43:00 - [49] Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Almarez What happens to a ship like the Curse or Pilgrim then? Risk? Being specialised NOS ships, they can simply not be affected in the way normal ships are. Meaning no feedback damage, or very much reduced based on skill! That's like saying Specialized Drone ships should be immune to having their drones smartbombed. Or specialized gunships immune to tracking disruptors...or specialized speed ships immune to webbers. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender Got Corp?
Phish1 Liberty Forces Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:50:00 - [50] real good use for my smartbomb + nano phoon at last =D

Inspiration	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:52:00 - [51] Edited by: Inspiration on 17/02/2007 20:49:57 Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Almarez What happens to a ship like the Curse or Pilgrim then? Risk? Being specialised NOS ships, they can simply not be affected in the way normal ships are. Meaning no feedback damage, or very much reduced based on skill! That's like saying Specialized Drone ships should be immune to having their drones smartbombed. Or specialized gunships immune to tracking disruptors...or specialized speed ships immune to webbers. I see what you mean, but you take my statement it to the extreme. I see feedback surge as a secondary effect that can be compensated for by specialised ships. The regular smartbomb damage still applies ofcourse. And a dominix ain't that specialised, it got other weapon bonuses too! Not to mention the option for sentry drones to attack ships from range. So your argument I doesn't realy apply to the extend you are strethcing it!
Doomed Predator The Phoenix Rising Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.17 21:04:00 - [52] Must say,a briliant idea,and logical too.CCP give this guy a billion isk
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 22:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Inspiration Edited by: Inspiration on 17/02/2007 20:49:57 Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Almarez What happens to a ship like the Curse or Pilgrim then? Risk? Being specialised NOS ships, they can simply not be affected in the way normal ships are. Meaning no feedback damage, or very much reduced based on skill! That's like saying Specialized Drone ships should be immune to having their drones smartbombed. Or specialized gunships immune to tracking disruptors...or specialized speed ships immune to webbers. I see what you mean, but you take my statement it to the extreme. I see feedback surge as a secondary effect that can be compensated for by specialised ships. The regular smartbomb damage still applies ofcourse. And a dominix ain't that specialised, it got other weapon bonuses too! Not to mention the option for sentry drones to attack ships from range. So your argument I doesn't realy apply to the extend you are strethcing it! True, I'm just stemming off the idea that nos ships should be immune to the drawbacks before it gets deep rooted. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender Got Corp?
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2007.02.17 23:12:00 - [54] Smartbombs from Ascendancy please.(people who have played will know the joy these bring to the shooter).
Mr Peanut STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.17 23:48:00 - [55] Originally by: Sokratesz 1) let it not effect neutralisers 2) let it only effect nos of equal or smaller size and im up for it, 100% UBER QFT. Smartbombs + carriers and motherships = pwnage. Uber nos is commonly used to kill these ships effectively. Thus, you are going to make carriers and motherships very, very hard to kill.
Qe'Rasha	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:06:00 - [56] i like this. but i dont like that it will effect the curse and the pilgrim.
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:49:00 - [57] Could use a tweak or two, but outstanding idea. Someone else complained that this would kill nos and become a new standard fit. It might at first, but as nos's recede and then smartbombs recede (why fit them with fewer nos's...?), nos's would re-emerge, and then smartbombs, etc. Eventually, a steady-state frequency would emerge, where the probabilities of fit would even out. That actually would be desirable, as opposed to now, where it's just all nos all the time. Could also amplify the smartbomb skill set, and make it more of an Amarr property, finally give them a ship bonus worth having.
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:57:00 - [58] Other idea is just add a mod that tanks against nos, just cuts effectiveness. I like this idea though, only problem is it doesn't stop Nos BS from WTFPWNing anything smaller without a fight. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Brutaan Wa	Posted - 2007.02.18 06:37:00 - [59] I really draw interest from this idea because it creates a clever and otherwise hidden reversal for nosses, which means, like most specialist systems in Eve, you have to put effort into knowing the time to use them and the time to not.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.18 09:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Mr Peanut Originally by: Sokratesz 1) let it not effect neutralisers 2) let it only effect nos of equal or smaller size and im up for it, 100% UBER QFT. Smartbombs + carriers and motherships = pwnage. Uber nos is commonly used to kill these ships effectively. Thus, you are going to make carriers and motherships very, very hard to kill. If people used Neuts, they might kill more Motherships. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender Got Corp?



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