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Poisoning the Chalice: Smartbombs as a Counter to Nos.

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smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2007.03.13 15:12:00 - [121] scatters generic red fluttery things sgb
beor oranes Caldari Furious Angels	Posted - 2007.03.13 15:27:00 - [122] After reading this thread (glad it got some CCP attention) I think using smartbombs to counter Nos is a good idea but people where suggesting using current smartbombs to do it, why can't they introduce a specific smartbomb to do it? Like having different missle types. We already have EM missles to attack ships with EM weakness's (my poor ships) why can't we have smartbombs designed to attack Nos's? Not saying it should be an 'I-win' against Nos it would mean that if you a shield tank and relied on your cap to keep it up then it would be a viable thing to put in the last high slot to possibly counter Nos's. Having a type specific as well would mean that it wouldn't be a dual purpose weapon to attack drones as well, so a Nos/drone boat would only have one of it's attacking options possibly disabled not both in one go. Of course how it would work would need to be figured out, but if you were a BS being Nos'ed by a frigate using a small Nos and you had a Large Smartbomb (not damage dealing just the type specific one) then you would have more chance of disrupting the Nos than if you had a Small Smartbomb agains a Large Nos. This effect would be an AoE one and would disrupt a friendly Nos as well. So in a close battle it would have to be used wisely as it would weaken friends as well as foes, plus if you were sporting 4 Nos and 4 Smartbombs then if you were Nos'ing and dropped a Smartbomb it would affect yourself as well. The way in which it is figured out should be skill based and not lottery based, so the higher skill you have in say Smartbombs the more effective it will be, on the other side you could have a skill that would give a bonus to your Nos (both would need pre-requisite skills that would help, Electronics for example) so making it more effective. Doing it this way would mean that pilots who wanted to fly Nos boats would be able to make them effective and those who wanted to be able to counter this would have to invest time and ISK to do so. The fine details would need to be sorted out but I think in theory this extention of Manus Stuprare's original idea would work. Thank you Manus Stuprare for an excellant suggestion to solve to problems at once. Top quality idea. ------------------------------------------------ Either pick a dry year when fighting wars or civilize the moronic races and have no wars at all!
Mudkest	Posted - 2007.03.13 16:59:00 - [123] Originally by: Tuxford I missed it, noting it down now in our ever growing list of nosferatu "fixes", which may or may not occur. If it seems like I'm being intentionally vague then you're right. not any more vague then normaly 8) and in response to that large post above this(and the nos-specific smartbombs), focused smartbombs! smartbomb that, instead of releasing its energy in an explosion around you, releases the energy trough the nos that the targeted ship that have nos active on you :o if ship has no nos active on you then nothing happens, sounds fun! -Duct tape might hold the univurse together, but it's coffee that makes it tick
Sailon	Posted - 2007.03.13 17:08:00 - [124] amarr recons should be immune to this or this will nerf the last good ships what amarr have.
Jack Icegaard	Posted - 2007.03.13 20:10:00 - [125] What is the battleships best (only) defense against frigates. Probably NOS and drones. Hm, let me see, the smartbomb is already a good anti drones weapon, so lets also make it a anti NOS weapon. A anti NOS+drones weapon all in one, Yay! That's brilliant! Coz battleship suckers should be nothing but really fat target drones for l33t ceptor gangs, double-Yay!
Soren PAK	Posted - 2007.03.13 20:28:00 - [126] Also, add a module or skill that prevents/lessens the damage from the nos / neut "overloading." ☠-->-->--
Manus Stuprare Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.13 20:43:00 - [127] waves to Tux, nice to see ya here Originally by: Jack Icegaard What is the battleships best (only) defense against frigates. Probably NOS and drones. Hm, let me see, the smartbomb is already a good anti drones weapon, so lets also make it a anti NOS weapon. A anti NOS+drones weapon all in one, Yay! That's brilliant! Coz battleship suckers should be nothing but really fat target drones for l33t ceptor gangs, double-Yay! Tbh I don't think heavy nos vs frigs would be much affected by these changes. Even taking my idea in its simplest form (without any of the refinements suggested elsewhere in this thread), the nos would only be disabled half the time, so would still be at least half as effective as before. I think frigs would still run out of cap pretty fast. As for the drones, are frig-sized smartbombs really that serious a threat to them? Small tech 2 smartbomb has a dps of 7.. -------------- Poisoning the Chalice: Smartbombs as a Counter to Nos.
Jack Icegaard	Posted - 2007.03.13 21:56:00 - [128] Originally by: Manus Stuprare waves to Tux, nice to see ya here Originally by: Jack Icegaard What is the battleships best (only) defense against frigates. Probably NOS and drones. Hm, let me see, the smartbomb is already a good anti drones weapon, so lets also make it a anti NOS weapon. A anti NOS+drones weapon all in one, Yay! That's brilliant! Coz battleship suckers should be nothing but really fat target drones for l33t ceptor gangs, double-Yay! Tbh I don't think heavy nos vs frigs would be much affected by these changes. Even taking my idea in its simplest form (without any of the refinements suggested elsewhere in this thread), the nos would only be disabled half the time, so would still be at least half as effective as before. I think frigs would still run out of cap pretty fast. As for the drones, are frig-sized smartbombs really that serious a threat to them? Small tech 2 smartbomb has a dps of 7.. Sry for my sarcasm. Your idea was presented in a civil may, backed up by some good arguments. I imagine you could fit a Rifter with four smartbombs, mwd, cap-booster and scrambler. Such a frig would not have to cost more than a million and the only drones that are fast enough to catch it would be light drones. Four smartbombs (small/micro) would kill light drones pretty fast Balance in a complex game like this is a very delicate matter. NOS is very much about balance between large and small ship imo. Any suggestion that addresses NOS should take this into consideration. Someone who brings a battleship into a combatzone puts a lot more at risk than a frigate pilot. There is also a huge investment in SP compared to a frig pilot. As new chars now starts with ~800k SP one can have a rather capable Rifter pilot in less than a month. I don't like the idea that a few disposable frigates flown by alts with hardly any SP investments will be a viable option to make a sitting duck out of a 200 million battleship that someone put years of training into. It does not seem balanced to me. Maybe your idea can be implemented without ruining the balance between large and small ships, giving us a generally better game.
Manus Stuprare Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.13 22:34:00 - [129] Yeah, I can't deny there'd be balance issues to iron out, and simpler fixes have been suggested for nos (which probably have a better chance of happening, realistically). I still think it could be made workable with some fiddling around. From a conceptual point of view it appeals to me more than a simple nerf though. For a start, you're giving players the means to counter nos themselves, rather than a blanket change over which only the devs would have control. The other thing I like is that there's a nice dynamic going on - yeah, smartbombs would be a counter for nos.. but nos would also be a counter for smartbombs since they use so much cap. If balanced right it could be pretty cool, the balancing is the hard bit of course. -------------- Poisoning the Chalice: Smartbombs as a Counter to Nos.
Icome4u IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.03.14 00:42:00 - [130] Edited by: Icome4u on 14/03/2007 00:45:26 /Signed Oh and people whining about capital ships, well good if it makes them harder to kill. They are CAPITAL ships after all. Oh and what balance between small and large ships lol? Large smartbomb and your T1 or T2 frig goes pop. Heavy NOS and your T1 or T2 frig is out of cap... no balance to speak of.
Jack Icegaard	Posted - 2007.03.14 02:37:00 - [131] Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 14/03/2007 02:38:03 yes, lollacopters, what balance? Frigates have some very nice traits. Speed, agility, targeting system, price etc A frigate can lock another frigate faster than a battleship can lock the same frigate. For some reason, frigates have a more advanced targeting system than battleships. That is one aspect of the balance between large and small ships. A frigate locks a battleship immediately while a frigate will have several seconds to decline a fight with a battleship before it gets locked. If you want to catch something that does not want to fight, use a frigate. The frigate is great if you want the initiative in a fight and you can also train for them fast. The most expensive T1 frigate cost what? 400K? The most expensive T1 battleship cost closer to 200M, almost 500 times more. This is what i mean with the balance between large and small ships. If you take the time to train for, and are willing to put the large investment that a battleship is into harms way, you should have some options to fend off someone in a 300k Rifter. Nos is a very effective option today. Maybe too effective, but I'm not convinced.
Mad Medicine Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.14 02:43:00 - [132] great idea... sadly, poor amarr and their recon ships
JdJinator	Posted - 2007.03.20 14:32:00 - [133] @Tuxford: I'd place this idea on the top of that list of yours, but that's just me. :) sig in construction
Bligga Dow	Posted - 2007.03.20 18:55:00 - [134] I'm getting to this thread a little late, but suffice to say I like it. and as to "what about this ship and that ship". No ship is ftw all the time. eve = giant nerf system if u haven't learned that by now, you are in the wrong game. this is just one more way to throw a loop into someone's day, and for that reason I believe it fits into eve great. manus, ty for your idea
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.03.20 20:43:00 - [135] I like the idea, but there I have some addition: add a special anti-nos highslot "smartbomb". it has no "normal" damage it overcharges each nos, currently active at the ship using the module and suck them 5 times as much. at same time each ship useing a nos on the ship with the active anti-nos bomb would get as much direct structure damage as their NOS value. so basically a diminishing heavy nos would suck 600cap but would also mean 600 structure damage. this would a) dont kill drones and b) dont screw people with a normal nos usage. if you have 1-2 nos running you'll have enough time to stop nos before you get yourself poped. at the same time time a real nos boat would get as shafted as a ECm boat encountering an ECCMed enemy. 3600cap for nosdomi but also pop after 2/4(dc) cycles.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.03.20 20:52:00 - [136] Im not sure if thats same thread as was here about week before, but if its not I would say here a swell, that op`s suggestion is one of best imo. Should be really looked at, great idea. ---
Caffeine Junkie Caldari The Ministry Of Funny Walks	Posted - 2007.03.20 23:13:00 - [137] /signed ___________________
Tiddlywink	Posted - 2007.03.20 23:25:00 - [138] Nooooooo!!!! TUX DON'T DO IT!!! It's a really bad idea. One high slot mod on a ship cancels out all nosses pointed its way? There are already plenty of legit counters to nos (another nos, cap boosters, Jamming/Dampening, passive tanking, staying out of nos range, choosing not to engage if you have none of these). I'm all for boosting SBs, but there are a lot better ways to do it, maybe boost the radius or lower the cap use or something, but turning it into an anti-nos + anti-drone + anti-missle machine that there will be no reason no to equip if these changes go through. If you must, at least make it so 1 smart bomb god device only disables/staggers 1 nos. I can't believe my eyes
Megan Maynard Minmatar RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.03.21 06:23:00 - [139] Love this idea, only thing i would say is that if you fit BOTH SB and Nos, and activate both at the same time, you get f-ing owned. Activating a Nos next to a SB should be a nasty damage result for whomever does it. That way you have to THINK in order to do all this, much more strategy involved. EH? Good addition to the good idea?
Megan Maynard Minmatar RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.03.21 15:17:00 - [140] Oh and I am totally against nerfing NOS directly. This idea for smartbombs can be done without touching NOS.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2007.03.21 15:19:00 - [141] how about using energy transfers to counter nos?
Damian Vilsalant Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.03.21 15:38:00 - [142] Wowza! What a good idea! The fact that there is no real counter to NOS except more NOS is a bit of pain.. and even with a Cap Booster you only buy yourself some time before you're dry. I'd really like to see CCP implementing this or a similar change to smart bombs and NOS. Cheers Damian _________________ HDZJG - Damian Vilsalant - FALL
Ohdows	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:31:00 - [143] you can also use a nos to counter a SB killing your drones, as it will make the SB focused on you, leaving your drones untouched. Or you can take the hit to save a friends pod. there is many ways to use the nos to your advantage against a SB as well. this sounds like a nice idea, and a quite balanced one as well
Nakumi Shakah	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:37:00 - [144] Exellent! /signed! this is the best solution to the nos problem I have seen! only problem i see atm is that it would render the nosdomi useless both nos and drone-wize, witch isn't such a bad thing tbh! i really want to see this happen! grats with an exellent idea in an exellent post.
Naranja krekiss	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:04:00 - [145] ok.. I've read through practically this ENTIRE topic.. and noticed how many of you seemed to have failed to even read past the original post lets get a few things straight: the NOS is an energy draining weapon.. the SB releases energy (in the form of damage).... therefore, all that energy (damage) that is spent from the SB is devoured, if you will, by the NOS.. no AOE, no CONCORD on u'r ass, and u'r drones are still droning on as they do... the simple explanation being that the extra energy being blasted into and through the NOS would likely overheat the module, therefore causing damage to it and such could cause a malfunction, delaying the time till the nos fires/drains once again or at all (effectively switching the module off and requiring it to be manually started again) second: if your friend is being NOSed and you fire a SB.... wtf is that gonna do other than fire a SB.. you are NOT the target.. your cap energy isn't being sucked/drained away so why should your SB make a difference (although it would be good in a way, it would mean everyone would spam SB's near any NOSed ship, same as NOS is spamed now) third: if 2 ships are suckin the life outta you and you drop a SB.. BOTH "blood-sucking leeches" will take damage.. though it will be slightly less dmg to each. since the SB only has so much energy released it should be divided 50/50 (or 33/33/33 etc depending on how many ships) with an extra 5% dmg on top, to each ship. i dunno... at least thats the way i see it.. seems like too many people came on here and left logic at the door I'll admit that I've no experience with either modules, nor do i have much with larger ships.. BUT the theory just seems right in what Manus is sayin... there was also mentioned in this thread, tho everyone again failed to notice *coughslack-c%ntscough*, where it was mentioned that NOS should get a slight nerf and neuts should be buffed to level the playing field.. this also at least keeps things in the same stadium too (both affect cap, rather than a physical weapon vs cap weapon) other than that i forgot what i was gonna say....... um... yes... hope you people can make sense of all my gibberish. and manus.. if you can, edit your initial post where possible to add in more detail as you see fit.. that way there wont be these really "smart" people baggin your idea when they've only read the first 3 paragraphs lol
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:41:00 - [146] Sure. I'd be for this. Anything to weaken the all powerful default choice for any and every PvP ship, the NOS. There should never be an always best choice, and currently, that is not the case. The NOS is always best.
Chaimera Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:05:00 - [147] Originally by: beor oranes After reading this thread (glad it got some CCP attention) I think using smartbombs to counter Nos is a good idea but people where suggesting using current smartbombs to do it, why can't they introduce a specific smartbomb to do it? Like having different missle types. We already have EM missles to attack ships with EM weakness's (my poor ships) why can't we have smartbombs designed to attack Nos's? Not saying it should be an 'I-win' against Nos it would mean that if you a shield tank and relied on your cap to keep it up then it would be a viable thing to put in the last high slot to possibly counter Nos's. Having a type specific as well would mean that it wouldn't be a dual purpose weapon to attack drones as well, so a Nos/drone boat would only have one of it's attacking options possibly disabled not both in one go. Of course how it would work would need to be figured out, but if you were a BS being Nos'ed by a frigate using a small Nos and you had a Large Smartbomb (not damage dealing just the type specific one) then you would have more chance of disrupting the Nos than if you had a Small Smartbomb agains a Large Nos. This effect would be an AoE one and would disrupt a friendly Nos as well. So in a close battle it would have to be used wisely as it would weaken friends as well as foes, plus if you were sporting 4 Nos and 4 Smartbombs then if you were Nos'ing and dropped a Smartbomb it would affect yourself as well. The way in which it is figured out should be skill based and not lottery based, so the higher skill you have in say Smartbombs the more effective it will be, on the other side you could have a skill that would give a bonus to your Nos (both would need pre-requisite skills that would help, Electronics for example) so making it more effective. Doing it this way would mean that pilots who wanted to fly Nos boats would be able to make them effective and those who wanted to be able to counter this would have to invest time and ISK to do so. The fine details would need to be sorted out but I think in theory this extention of Manus Stuprare's original idea would work. Thank you Manus Stuprare for an excellant suggestion to solve to problems at once. Top quality idea. There would be no need for a NEW type as an EM smartbomb would deal EM damage to the ships draining the cap, a Thermal smartbomb would deal thermal, etc. Beware of the killer grumpies!
Chronojam Gallente Mom's Friendly Robots	Posted - 2007.03.31 07:17:00 - [148] Sounds like a beautiful idea and something to make neuts vs nos more of a tactical decision
Mike Atropos	Posted - 2007.03.31 08:48:00 - [149] reads thread hugs OP /SIGNED
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:23:00 - [150] Bump. Needs more flowers, love and rosewater. sig down temporarily Originally by: welsh wizard You might not be able to kill anything but you can sure as hell ignore it and go about your business

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