My thread was hijacked!

The Crazy has it and you are not getting it back.

#121Posted: 2011.12.20 19:51 | Report
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Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.

I'm pretty sure the same crap has been copied pasted in like 3 other threads. I would love to see someone make an argument without using the Deimos or Vagabond. Or how about make a point without comparing Gallente to another race. There's a challenge.

So much for me trying to instigate change for the good, no wonder a dev hasn't posted in this thread. So i'm going to make another post about improving information warfare and the Eos, seeing how I'm the only one who seems to care about it.

Another look what I found:


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=47251&p=7




Does this sound familiar. I mean really, do we need you all arguing in two different threads about the same damn topic. GO MAKE YOUR OWN! I'm pretty sure anyone of you could go resurrect the Vaga vs Deimos thread.

The Vagabond actually sucks anyway it's completely ouclassed by the Cynabal for long range and the SFI for short range, whereas the Ishtar is both better than the Vaga and can actually do things that the Gallente faction cruisers cannot.

OH SNAP

Well, in a 1vs1 it-¦s not that a big issue, that-¦s right, the opponent would need to be a class bigger to really hurt you this way. But it is getting more effective with more people. I-¦ve seen small gang fights where the proper use of neuts meant neutralizing the enemies firepower twice as fast because when working together additionally to destroying ships they kept other opponents capped out. Not permanently perhaps, but it certainly gave them an advantage.
...
I never stated that utility highs are something like a magic key for close combat, just something that can come in quite handy often and can -especially when used in gangs- cause major headaches for the enemies. More would be too much.

I left EHP and DPS out because those aren-¦t really basic design characteristics.

Your answer why the Gallente are especially suited for close combat is unsatisfactory. You have not stated a single point of the basic design that is supporting close combat.
Well, to be fair, it doesn-¦t exist, so it would be impossible for you. The Gallente do not have even one characteristic available only to them that makes them suited for close combat.

Hey, Liang's the one that started with Vaga vs Deimos, and kept it up. He even made a wall of text dedicated to it in his blog. Why would anyone argue Diemost's better vs Vaga? Who knows. I suspect a degree of masochism comes into play. Regardless, it's pretty illustrative of the state of Winmatar and Gallante.

Oh, and no one cares about Eos. Lol@ gallante ganglinks.

Everyone keeps complaining that Gallente needs to be buffed and the two arguments that they keep using seem to be the Deimos vs Vagabond and the Brutix vs Hurricane.

OK, so here's the plan.... everyone now should compare the Tempest vs Megathron and the Ishtar vs Munin.

Personally, I think that the Megathron has the advantage over the Tempest. With similar armor setups the Tempest has 106k ehp and puts out 800 dps while the Megathron has 120k ehp and puts out 1190 dps. This is of course using short range ammo on both of them. Faction. The Tempest would have a slight advantage being able to use 2 heavy neuts to the Throns 1 heavy neut. Luckily the Thons heavy neut can neut at lr point range which the Tempest would probably be using since it can also use 2 webs. This fight would entirely depend on the Tempest being able to keep enough range, however, since their speed difference is only about 10m/s, it would also entirely depend on where the fight started at. If at range, the thron would easily be able to get out of point range considering the close speed range, if at close range, the thron would **** the Tempest with much higher dps, tracking, and a scram to shut off the mwd.

Person opinion of course.

I'll let someone else go over the Munin vs Ishtar. Since I can't think of their stats off hand at work.

With similar armor setups

No. Let us compare an Elephant vs Santa Claus.

Armor Tempests are rare. There are much heavier Armor Ships out there and you want to take advantage of Minmatar Speed.

Now days they are Shield Nano Autocannon fit like a Big Cane for Skirmishing, In Fleets Shield Artillery Fit in a with 1400mm Cannons for Alpha.

Though the Maelstrom is the preferred Fleet Arty Minmatar Battleship choice the Tempest still sees heavy use.

While I disagree that the Armor Pest is rare, feel free to compare the Shield Pest to the Megathron in whatever way that you like. I'm just trying to keep the comparisons at same tier so people don't whine about tiers not being matched, etc...

Or, you can compare ships of the same tier that are actually used outside of station games and the blob. You know, bc and cruiser sized hulls.

Its not all nurf Minmatar for me but, there ships do not look like they could handle the multy-vector thrust that they display in game any way. They should give some agility to Gallente


RACE ...... SPEED/AGILITY ........ TANK ........ RANGE ....... damage

Caldari ..... poor/ok ............ shield-strong ............ mid-long ....... low-mid

Minmatar ..... best/best .... shield-ok-mid/armor-ok ... short-mid ..... high

Galente ..... ok/poor .... shield-ok /armor-ok-mid .... short-mid ..... high

Ammar .... worst/worst ........... armor-strong ..... mid-long ..... low-mid


Thats the rough brake down in just "dogma" and a few tier to teir comparisons

-Gallente have to chouse between tank and speed, and suffer some of the worst agility in the game because they have such high mass and the effect of some armor mods

-Minmatars out dated contrast to Ammar in regard to speed&agility is unneeded, It looks nice and balanced on paper but in reality the speed alone is enough just because of how slow Ammar are.

-As you can see this is less about nurf-Minmatar/Buff-Gallente and more about giving every race a piece of the pie! and some thing that they can bring to the table and excell at.

-As I've stated before I think the right move is to make the Gallente the "Agility race" they should keep orbits tight to deliver the most DPS. They should aline in-to and out-of fights fast, to rapidly reposition. Let Minmatar be the-chance/stay on/flee race and the Gallente be the-warp to/warp past/warp from race!!

Maybe you should put your blasters on a Caldari boat. They have the turning speed of Minmatar it seems like, and with shield tanks.... you don't have to worry about the armor penalty!!!

dumbproof

Sadly minmatar ships aren't really this.

Heh, I've done it many times. Here's the most recent example:

Last night I spotted a Myrm in Egghelende and Tomin and I went to kill it. We did. Then I was sitting my GCC off at a belt in Egg because Amamake was pretty quiet, and I spied a Thorax at a belt. I figured I had two choices - warp in at zero and have the best opportunity for a tackle or warp in at range as my vagacane might demand. I was greedy for a kill (it was waaaay too ******* quiet) and I warped in at zero. Lo and behold, the Thorax was at zero as well and scrammed+webbed+pointed me straight away.

Its not that big of a deal though, and the first thing I did was prime gunes, point, and put my drones on him. Then I zoomed in on his ship and matched transversals while overheating for my 770 overheated DPS (my skills - 784 max). Tomin arrived shortly thereafter but had the foresight to warp in at a bit of range - and it wasn't terribly long after that he saw a Cane + Drake on scan. I overheated everything but the neuts didn't cap the Thorax out before the Drake and Cane landed and point+scram+webbed me again.

The Cane started lighting me up and both of them launched ECM drones at Tomin. I finished off the Thorax before turning my attention to the Hurricane. His shields went down fast, and his armor faster still.. but I still only got him to half armor before I went down in a blazing ball of fire. They instascooped my wreck and fled the field when Tomin came back in to try to finish the (very) damaged Cane off.

The entire fight took place within 3-5km and my two utility highs did absolutely nothing for me.

Here's my loss mail: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60520

Here's the fit:
[Hurricane, Vagacane]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

Vital Stats (my skills):
- 50k EHP
- Overheated DPS: 770 @ 1.9+20

Here's a similar Brutix fit that I wish I'd been in:

[Brutix, Shield Gank Brutix]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5


Vital stats (My skills):
- 55k EHP
- Overheated DPS: 969 @ 2.6+8.1

So here's the skinny:
- The Brutix does 28% more DPS
- The Brutix has 11% more EHP
- The Brutix tracks better, and would have applied DPS to the Thorax better.
- The Brutix actually has better ranges for the fight took place in.
- I have every reason to believe I would have killed both the Thorax and Hurricane with a Brutix instead of the Cane.

Long and short? Minnies lack the things that really matters in a brawl - DPS and Tank.

-Liang

Also if you fit an invuln to your cane you would likely get similar EHP to your Brutix...

The sad thing is when most players clicked on this thread, they already knew what I am referring too. Gallente warfare philosophy as it stands, is just not possible with its current ship designs and weapon systems. I started playing eve back in 2003 and always had the understanding that gallente were the up in your face, hard hitting faction. Able to take extremes amount of damage while closing with their targets in preperation to take them out in a few hits. Currently, their ships are too slow, can't take a lot of damage, and their weapons can't reach their targets. In general they are a confused warfare philosophy.

Issues related to Gallente:

Blaster range and damage. (Hybrids in general, draw backs of lasers and projectiles but you can't select damage type!?)Still bad tracking and range, and still medicore damage.

Information Warfare. This is so far out of place I don't even know where to begin. CCP knows its broken but doesn't know how to fix it. I'm going to add the EOS in here as well.

Webs. So the fastest race in eve gets web bonuses, but the second fastest gets warp disruption. Really? Give gallente ships the web bonus and the minmatar ships warp disruption bonuses. Giving web range bonuses to the dedicated blaster ships could fix the problem. Back in the day a thorax standard build always had a web.

Armor. How I just love the repping bonus.... so not only do I have to power my guns but I also have to power my armor tank, that repairs at the end of its cycle and my AB/MWD. Like another thread stated why do gal have to be just armor.

Speed. Not fast enough, and still a lot of mass to move around. Gallente ships have never felt nimble. Its like a jet engine strapped to a tank. You can't corner in those needed high velocity blaster orbits.

I'm sure there some other issues out there, but these are just a few I have seen. Gallente were once an effective race, now they are the bastard child of Eve.

OK EOS fix: Remove drone bay bonus, just stupid to begin with... Lower bandwith to 50, add a 10% drone damage bonus. Ugh, was that so hard. Sorry just had to put that out there.

Fixing Gallente would open up 25% of EVE's content for me.

I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.

Quoted for Truth.... All the way.