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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Wrattus Novum
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Posted - 2007.08.02 23:34:00 -
[271]
Account hacking aside, it seems to me the core issue here is the proliferation of ISK generated by macro miners. After all, if it wasn't easy to generate ISK the cost of selling ISK would be prohibitive, yes?
Consider that macros rely on a dialog box for a given action appearing in the same coordinate on screen each time. IE suppose hauler_xyz has a bookmark to a jetcan where miner xyz is dropping ore. The macro for the hauler (starting from a station in the system) simply moves the mouse twice and clicks. IE with the people + place dialog open, right click at (300,250) , move to (310,260), left click).
Defeating this method seems trivial, since it relies on the dialog appearing at a fixed coordinate onscreen. Add a small rand function to the dialog code, such that instead of the dialog appearing always at, e.g. 300,260 it appears instead at (300+rand(20),260+rand(20). This slight mis-alignment presents minimal challenge to a real player but is insurmountable to a macro, which will always end up clicking in the wrong spot.
Disclaimer: I don't really know how macros operate. Anyone out there know the actual mechanics? I can't imagine they are screen scraping or hacking the client API.
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Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
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Posted - 2007.08.04 16:35:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/08/2007 16:35:33 Wrattus, moving the dialogue box is trivial for a deacent macro to counter. And it's going to annoy legitimate players too. (And yes, using python injection techniques is pretty easy and I'd be expecting them to use that)
//Maya |
Zantrei Kordisin
True Centii
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:31:00 -
[273]
Well, I think people miss out on a fair few points. Personally I dislike the GTC system in that it allows people to gain ingame items for real money, however I do believe it has an overall positive effect. To put one thing, simply:
There will always be people who are willing to take the risk of buying ISK, be it from ISK sellers or from selling GTC's.
There is nothing that can be done about that in my opinion, it is human nature that those who are wealthy in real life will wish to use that fact to their advantage in an internet spaceships game. The positives of the GTC system:
- It allows a lot of people who otherwise can not pay, to play the game.
- It does not cause ISK to be injected into the economy.
- It has the potential to completely stamp out ISK sellers, who employ the use of keyloggers etc as some of their ISK generating methods, as per the blog.
These positives, in my opinion, more than justify the system. What needs to be done now by CCP, is the fact that the system allows for ISK sellers to be stamped out, needs to be used. Make sure that everybody who buys ISK from ISK sellers gets the isk taken away. Starve the ISK sellers of customers, generally, just make it so rediculously dangerous to buy ISK, that people use the GTC system instead.
I personally don't think the GTC system is implemented purely to make CCP money, as, well - I think the number of ISK sellers and macro accounts potentially outnumbers the number of people who rely on GTC's. The GTC system potentially allows the EVE universe to be rid of ISK sellers. I don't understand how people can not see it as a positive thing.
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elgino4th
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Posted - 2007.08.19 19:30:00 -
[274]
i have just got this eve mail asking me to buy isk for money
2007.08.19 19:00 Hello Sorry to bother you. Fast delivery(15 minutes) of isk at www.vipplat.com, counpon code 8888 which can give you 10% bonus when you place the order with it. 200 million isk costs you only $11.92, and 3000 Million only costs you $162.86 thanks for your time! yours monly today at 20:40 i payed for a hyperion but did not get it so i am cheesed off so i will be demanding one from ccp |
elgino4th
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Posted - 2007.08.20 11:13:00 -
[275]
i just wanted you all to know that it is doing my tree in the numbar of time that i have been eve mail asking me to buy isk for money and i would like to see it stamped out.
today at 20:40 i payed for a hyperion but did not get it so i am cheesed off so i will be demanding one from ccp |
Aurhon
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:38:00 -
[276]
I look at this way.
you have CCP, the ISK seller, and the ISK buyer. First if people really wants to purchase ISK you can't stop them no matter what you do people will still buy ISK. Either through time code trading, from a third party or a private trade. This has no impact on CCP monthly subscription income. Because if Buyer trade a Time code for isk means Buyer still have to pay CCP additonal for his/her own playing time. As to the seller who purchased the time code it simply means buyer is paying game time for the seller. Either way CCP gets the payment of both Buyer and the seller. In the case buyer purhcased ISK directly from the seller through third party or private trade both buyer and seller still have to pay CCP monthly subscription to play the game. Either way CCP gets payed monthly subscription from both buyer and seller. My point here is ISK buying dose not impact the ammount of monthly subcription paied to CCP.
With that said the problem lies in the effect of being able to get isk with out playing the game to earn it. I don't see a real problem there since the unique skill system eve use even if you have 10 billion isk with out taking the time to train you can't do any thing with the isk. I don't see why CCP would even bother to enforce the rule isk buying is ileagel. If your blameing people for using the blue print originals to generate ISK, the problem lie with the blue print originals and how the game works. My thoughts are the oposite maybe if you actually allow ISK real $ trading you might see a subscription increase.
Finally the only way to stop isk influencing new players is to ban all form of ISK trading including the time code trading. But your just going against what some of the players wants to do. I also agree it's not cool isk seller spam chat chanels. Maybe if CCP actually allow isk trading and setup a place to allow that to happen then you may solve the problem with the spaming. No matter how hard you try you can't stop people form geting ISK through some form of trade may it be a gift, loan, prive trade, or on e-bay. So why spend the energy trying to stop some thing that you can't instead concentrate on improving the game?
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DeMundus
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.08.22 00:54:00 -
[277]
All the arguments in that blog also entails that GTC should be illegal, only diffrence is CCP is getting the cash. EX. We killed a noob who bought a char. and a Thanatos with ISK that game from GTC - We later learned by a Corp m8 of his he was only 6 weeks old and spend 1000+ dollars on GTC, his parents got ****ed because he spend that much cash on a fiction space ship and got it blown up by pirates... BUT point being it puts power in ppl's hands that have not "earned" it, as stated ISK IS POWER...
Iam very much against GTC for ISK. The only reason CCP allows it is because of the cash they get - I don't see any other valid point. Abandon all hope But take care of teh cake!11 - Immy |
Sareem
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.22 13:51:00 -
[278]
The real problem with isk farmers is that the prices they practice are competitive. Specially for the european isk buyer (yes, I know it's illegal, but people do it just the same).
Let me explain: European gamers pay more than US gamers do, due to the fact that CCP charges the monthly fee without having a conversion rate: 1 month equals 14.95USD for USA or 14.95Euros for europe. You have to account that 14.95Euros are actually 20.15USD with current rate.
Well, if you check any isk seller online, you'll see that for that same 20 bucks amount, possibly a little more, you'll get somewhere about 400ISK. With that, you can buy a gametime code for 3 months and still keep some ISK for yourself, thus buyng 3 months illegally for the price of a little more than one legally.
I've said it before, CCP overcharges players and seems not to be able to deal with the current EVE problems and with that, motivates isk sellers to produce more and more, becouse customers never end.
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Rugs
Dragon Highlords
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Posted - 2007.08.22 22:49:00 -
[279]
I buy GTCs every month, usually from official resellers or sometimes from players when i feel like i have the ISK to do it, on some occasions i've bought GTCs and sold them as i've been broke ingame with 0 ISK, i'm fine with that option. What i'm against are the guys sitting with 5-6 accounts macro mining/farming isk in other ways then selling it on ebay or wherever to make RL money. It's a game, you're not supposed to make a living on it. As you can see in both ways CCP gets money and in one of them i have to pay with RL money. Nothing wrong with CCP wanting the money, it is they who made the game and are developing it, they should get paid for it and they are also the only ones that should make any money out of it. Only ones that are doing anything wrong here are the ones selling ISK outside the game for real money or selling GTCs (that are bought with ISK) for real money.
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MeganBlood
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Posted - 2007.10.15 00:38:00 -
[280]
I just wanted to suggest a way to undermine the ISK Sellers by selling youre own ISK?
You could setup a system that lets players (like me),who dont really have the money but have the time to play, to sell the ISK to you (Eve Online) in EXCHANGE for credit to pay the fee for playng. Those ISK could be re-sold to players who dont have the time but got the money. So the selling player dont "make" money out of it but get to continue playing Eve Online and the Buying players gets what he wants, ISK. On the other side third party sellers will lose profitability on there operations and will shrink or die; either way, it free's up staff for support and makes some players happy.
You could make a profit out of it, help poorer players and undermine other ISK Sellers all at the same time. Because, why go to the black market if you can go legit whit no risk?
Well i would apprechiate to ear from you on this one.
P.S. I do not sell my ISK to ISK Sellers; You can check my logs any day you want.
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Galdron
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Posted - 2007.10.15 03:39:00 -
[281]
Hi i'm new to this game only been playing for 2 days still on trial account lol, however I am not new to MMO's. From what I have read in the posts and what I know about farmers and the current situation I have to ask are you sure you guys know what the hell your doing? You really think that Adding a secure way to transfer the GTC's and making that the only way is going to stabalize your economy and stop the farming?
Farmers sell in-game currency dirt cheap, right now you can do a google search for EvE Currency and find a crap load of vendors. I can tell you that right now that the farmers are selling 200 mil Isk for $10 and 400 mil for $20.
Take this into consideration, your allowing players to go to a retailer buy GTC's and come here and sell them in-game for ingame currency, Farmers who are selling in-game currency dirt cheap have tons of it. All they have to do is buy up the GTC's that the players sell here, go to their premade website or go to ebay and sell the GTC's they obtained to make RL money. Not to mention your making easier for them to make a higher profit that way.
Players are selling 30day GTC's for 170 mil - 185 mil and 90day GTC's for 385 mil - 410 mil 30day GTC's from retailer cost 14.99, 90 costs 38.99 let's do the math.
Farmers: 200 mil - $10 = 30 day GTC 400 mil - $20 = 90 day GTC
looking at that up there all they have to do is get the GTC's sold by players here, sell them as a retailer outside and make the same abount of RL money they were. Not only that but you allowed them to be able to raise their prices to make more. making 200 mil = 12.99 and 400 mil = 35.99
Your not only allowing them to sell and farm GTC's this way your also allowing them to increase their profits, by under slashing the other retailers.
Also with that the cycle of money from just one GTC seems ridiculous.
Retailer - GTC 1 Buyer buys GTC 1 from retailer Retailer has in game player(s), retailer player(s) buys GTC 1 back from buyer. Retailer resells GTC 1 to Buyer 2 and the cycle continues, providing an unwavering amount of income for Retailer.
Oh also since GTC sells are private I.E. retailer to buyer, they can be untrackable by CCP
Like I said I am new and haven't been playing for long so please if I have made errors in this comment by overlooking some special rules or regulations about the subject please fill me in.
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Aluthin
Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:36:00 -
[282]
u could stop isk farmers by making asteroid belts non fixed make them all part of the anomolies bit so that u have too scan/probe belts out ...... this would make it a lot harder for macroers and isk farmers.....
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Domitianvs
Amarr East Khanid Trading
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:34:00 -
[283]
Not really. Alot of them have moved on to do macro missions and macro ratting.
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BulGaro
Minmatar Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
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Posted - 2007.10.16 11:48:00 -
[284]
What will happen if there's limit to the selling of GTC. For example let's say that you can NOT sell more EVE Time that you've played. You play 3 months you could sell 3 months GTC, you play one more month, you can sell 1 month GTC etc.
And for God sake - stop buying ISK
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Marcus Danning
Caldari Aquila Victrix
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Posted - 2007.10.17 03:07:00 -
[285]
Ok, Im not sure if it has been said yet or not as I don't have the time to read to the last page but when it comes to GTC sales I realy think ppl should take a step back to see what it has done to the ISK sellers.
Unfortunatly I don't have any hard facts or statistics but think about it. By CCP giving the player base a SAFE and LEGAL way to "buy" ISK they have made buying from a potentualy Unsafe and and compleatly Illegal ISK seller kinda silly. Why would I (or the avg player) risk both account and RL money by buying from an illegal source when there is a legal one readly available? The Truth is, I wouldn't. And I doubt the avg player would ether.
When everything is said and done GTC sales have helped to reduce the demand for ISK sellers AND they have provided a way for those of us with more ISK than RL cash continue to play the game we love.
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Marlo Jombardo
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Posted - 2007.10.17 03:47:00 -
[286]
Edited by: Marlo Jombardo on 17/10/2007 03:48:31 first: YEAR! f... all these cheeters, botuser, macroers and spammers!
Originally by: Max Tesla How do they know who bought the isk or not???
ever notice the entrys of your wallet? for every transaction at any form you can see from who to who ;). and that's only what you see. CCP might have much more detailt informations.
Quote: What if the seller gives away isk for free to people and then when ccp checks all transactions they will ban even those who got it for free
that will NEVER ever happen. they try to earn real money with it, the will NEVER gave away something for free!
Quote: also that would be a perfect way to get vengence on some people Become an isk seller sell to some and transfer free isk to the ones you hate and then get cought so that the ones you hate get banned
just if you intend to never play EVE anymore as I'm pritty sure CCP will ban all accounts that belong a) to your name b) your email c) your personal stats (bank accounts, street, etc)
don't belive that game developer/programmer are stupid. if they can create a game like EVE it's a matter of minutes for them to program a valide filter for something like that .
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Centari Callisto
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Posted - 2007.10.17 08:01:00 -
[287]
I don't have a problem with macro miners, isk farmers, GTC sellers, character farmers its all just part of the game now. Give macro miners their own server and charge them higher subscription charges and don't allow subscription by GTC. If it keeps some poor Chinese family from dying of starvation then that is great.
I personally don't buy isk or farm characters but I do buy GTC's to play the game.
just my opinion
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Randy West
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.17 18:39:00 -
[288]
GTC's are fine with me
I am not going to try and dictate in what ways CCP makes money for the product that they provide.
As a matter of fact if it were up to me and I ran CCP I would be figuring a way to sell isk to people that wanted to purchase it. That way they can kind of control the pricing and the market so to speak. It would kill isk sales on e bay at the very least.
I would also try to figure out a way for people to resell their accounts back to CCP for money so CCP could resell if they so desired. Or a way to purchase existing account thru CCP similar to the charecter transfer they have now.
Lets face it CCP is a business and a business needs to make money. If people don't like it or can't appreciate it then they can play another game. It wouldn't be long until these folks found another reason to dislike CCP and want them to change something else in game.
I don't think many have a problem with the GTC's and if they did they have never run a business.
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Valea
Wrath Of Khaine
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Posted - 2007.10.18 01:11:00 -
[289]
Your arguments hold little integrity when you examine your policy on alts and GTCs. aka: It's totally fine to spend money to get more power in EVE, as long as WE get the money. Perhaps if you are serious about stopping the buying and selling of power in EVE, you will take a look at these clearly hypocritical policies.
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Rocka Stargirl
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:40:00 -
[290]
Well, this thread has been going a while now, and looks like everyone is laughing at it instead of taking it seriously.
Epic fail kieron. EPIC!
--- We do what we must, because we can. |
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Zolian
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Posted - 2007.10.28 19:24:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Zolian on 28/10/2007 19:24:21
Originally by: Selzer
Here's my take:
1) With GTC sales CCP gets RL currency. 2) With ISK sales CCP doesn't get RL currency.
QFT
Hypocrisy is strong in this thread.
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Blank Protection
Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.29 06:03:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Zolian
Hypocrisy is strong in this thread.
Indeed. I`m pretty sure that 95% of the people in this thread buys game time for ISK. Including myself and i keep doing it. What`s wrong about that? If i can make somebody happy with a view hundred million ISK and i get my playing time for it in return by GTC thats great. I dont like to keep on paying real money for this never ending game. And i work hard for my ISK in game.
Btw* You all have the ISK selling/buying with GTC in own hands.
Start dropping the insane high ISK price for GTC`s first.
100 million for 30 days and 250 million for 90 days GTC instead.
CCP is doing a great job with the ISK for Game Time Card thing.
But they can start to reduse the time consuming part of the game and make it more easy to make ingame ISK by giving higher ammounts of ORE with mining roids for example. Reduse the cycle time of stripminer to 60 sec also. A Osprey with T2 mininglasers on it makes almost the same ammount of a covetor. And i need to train almost 3 month`s to fly the insane ship.
Game is much to time consuming for making ISK thats why you get illegal ISK farmers and sellers on EBay.
*Btw I`m always right,even if i dont* |
Shosuro Ryoko
The Blackstone Group Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.30 06:26:00 -
[293]
GTC trades shoot the wind out of the sails of the GM's first post. Common sense eliminates the rest.
CCP is making money either way, as isk farmers still have to buy game time. Unless of course CCP is being really hypocritical and giving them a discount. Given all the isk they have I'd wager they pay for their accounts with isk via GTC, or at least the smart ones do. Thus it is fair to say that GTC trades also support isk farmers by lowering their operating cost.
Furthermore, Second Life has a perfectly functional economy and it allows direct transfer of real money to and from your game account at a variable exchange rate. Rather than spending millions of man-hours trying to stop supply and demand, they set up a bank and what is essentially a new real-money currency. People pay real money for in game stuff, or sell in game stuff and convert to real money. I'm sure Second Life has chinese farmers earning in-game money and converting it to real-world money too, the end result is the same: more subscribers to the game.
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fell1234
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Posted - 2007.10.30 18:55:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Shosuro Ryoko GTC trades shoot the wind out of the sails of the GM's first post. Common sense eliminates the rest.
CCP is making money either way, as isk farmers still have to buy game time. Unless of course CCP is being really hypocritical and giving them a discount. Given all the isk they have I'd wager they pay for their accounts with isk via GTC, or at least the smart ones do. Thus it is fair to say that GTC trades also support isk farmers by lowering their operating cost.
Furthermore, Second Life has a perfectly functional economy and it allows direct transfer of real money to and from your game account at a variable exchange rate. Rather than spending millions of man-hours trying to stop supply and demand, they set up a bank and what is essentially a new real-money currency. People pay real money for in game stuff, or sell in game stuff and convert to real money. I'm sure Second Life has chinese farmers earning in-game money and converting it to real-world money too, the end result is the same: more subscribers to the game.
1. You are 100% correct allowing GTC's to be purchased with in game currency you are HELPING the "illegal" isk farmers to function. You have made it possible to be 100% self sufficient by merely playing the game for any farmer.
2. Second life is not an MMO based on direct competition between players. The entire foundation of eve is COMPETITION. Allowing people to purchase power in a game based on competition is awful. It was such a scandal for devs to assist players outside of the rules. But its ok for me to BUY similar assistance?
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Banjo String
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Posted - 2007.10.30 20:25:00 -
[295]
Ok, I've reads oodles of posts about this, but no-one seems to bring up the thought I have about GTC's for ISK.
I think it's amazing, that any MMO decides to reward loyalty to the game by letting you play the game for free.
If you play long enough, and get to the point 200M ISK isn't a problem for you to generate in 30 Days of play, then looky! CCP say you can play the game for free now. None of your own real money involved.
I think thats cool.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.10.31 02:01:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Banjo String Ok, I've reads oodles of posts about this, but no-one seems to bring up the thought I have about GTC's for ISK.
I think it's amazing, that any MMO decides to reward loyalty to the game by letting you play the game for free.
If you play long enough, and get to the point 200M ISK isn't a problem for you to generate in 30 Days of play, then looky! CCP say you can play the game for free now. None of your own real money involved.
I think thats cool.
You have two groups of people that are in direct competition in a game solely based on said competition. One group is willing/able to invest 100's of real world dollars and dominates the group that does not. How is that fair or cool?
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Ari Chu
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.10.31 16:48:00 -
[297]
Edited by: Ari Chu on 31/10/2007 16:48:39 Two trains of thought on the matter:
I originally was opposed to ISK purchases - but as others have mentioned, CCP condones them as long as they (CCP) receive the actual cash... with that in mind - I can't, in good faith, continue to oppose the purchase or sale of ISK on the basis of an unfair ingame advantage. I also think that it is impossible for CCP to stop such transfers, and attempting to do so costs the company resources which could be used to improve the game.
Here is a scenario... Person A wants to purchase ISK from Person B. Person A sets up a corp and Person B joins that corp... as a member of the CORP - Person B mines/missions/rats/explores/whatever and donates the proceeds to the CORP - and Person A just uses those CORP assets. CCP has no way to show that Person A sent a PayPal payment to Person B prior to the situation occuring.... and trying to track down how many corps get influx of ISK from noobs mining and donating to the corp? Waste of resources.
BUT.. at the same time I think that CCP should do everything they (and we as a community) can to stop players from using BOTS and other automated actions. It is already easy enough to Mine AFK without using those programs - and it is clearly cheating to use them.
So, in the end: I'm opposed to CCP trying to stop ISK for cash transfers, and am even more opposed to players who use bots and other programs to cheat in the game.
---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Novgond Galathil
Caldari Justice Hackers
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Posted - 2007.11.01 21:38:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Brigadier Joe I don't mind GTCs.
Yes, it can get a player a rung or two higher up the ladder of Eve. But it doesn't effect the game in the ways mentioned in the Blog because only CCP benefit from isk-selling, and not farmers/exploiters.
CCP isk-selling doesn't depress the mineral markets (CCP's borked new regions do however...)
CCP isn't farming complexes, or phishing accounts, or macro-mining, or running a 24hr sweatshop, to get the isk to sell you. (ok, maybe that last one ) so GTC sales don't effect the overall player experience even remotely like the isk-sellers do.
In fact, GTC sales probably help the overall player experience, since there are many players who obviously can't afford the RL cash to continue to play. Think about the loss of diversity, community, and targets if that playerbase suddenly dropped out of Eve.
Someone who has a clue, finally...
You see - there will always be RMT ... Whatever CCP does, there still will be people selling isk for real money... WIth the GTC system - more people can play the game, and it DRASTICALLY decreases RMT by 3rd parties + CCP gets money that otherwise would be hoarded by some farmers in sweatshops.
It's a win-win-win situation... I am amazed some people are so full of jealousy and so blind to see it...
I agree with both of you completely... I think that GTC are a good regulated way, and it provides a way for people who don't have 8 hours a day to play to get a bit more money legally. Plus once you start making a bit of money it sure would be nice to be able to play without having to pay RL money...
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zoolkhan
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.11.02 14:20:00 -
[299]
this deserves a broader audience, 99,99% of the ISK buying ignorants will not be reading this blog.
legal actions beyond banning the account should be considered
countless,countless fan websites run banner-ads for ISK sellers the most famous ones are amongst them - GO GET THEM
spread a link to this blog across ingame mailboxes, or at least into the "fullofmarketingandprettypictures-newsletter" make it viewed by a majority - please
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Ronin Hatori
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2007.12.14 00:49:00 -
[300]
This is such BULLS**T. The only reason they do this is because they arent making any money off of it. They could care less if it affects the game. Case in point, you can still buy ISK by buying game cards and selling them for ISK just as easily as going to a ISK selling website. Just tell the truth. dont give us some long winded speech about youre only doing whats best for the game. You're doing whats best for your pockets, plain and simple!!
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