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Words from the GM Team, part 2. ISK Purchasing and You!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
stock holder	Posted - 2007.02.28 07:48:00 - [61] lol i wish ccp would just admit that they are considering to follow sony online entertainments role in the station exchanges in eq2
Radica Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.28 08:24:00 - [62] I just reviewed the GTC for isk policy, then the dev's reply here. Fair enough, you can't police it, blah blah blah.... So how about you rewrite this devblog omitting all the reasons buying isk is bad that also apply to the sale of GTCs for isk? Because the blog would be about 5 lines long, that's why. Face it, selling GTCs for isk is cheating. Quote: ôHypocrisy: prejudice with a haloö -- Ambrose Bierce
Limlox Caldari Anti-BoB Flash Mob	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:07:00 - [63] It's obvious that GTC selling for Isk is a way of turning real cash into Isk. CCP's stance on using rl currency to get ahead in the game has just taken a huge u-turn over the whole subject. I agree that pilots should be able to use hard earned isk to pay their subscription. When I first heard about the idea, I was contemplating funding a second account using isk. However, when I learned that the only way to do it was to buy from a 3rd party I was horrified and out of principle have never purchased GTC's purely because others will be making Isk from it, in very large amounts. I think CCP's only option is to sell GTC's for Isk direct and ban any other 3rd party trading to keep in line with it's own policies. Otherwise the blog I read the other day about removing isk from missions also makes it harder for the newer and honest pilot to build any substantial wealth in the game. It seems that unless you're a 0.0 resident or a GTC trader, there's not many options to make any decent amounts of isk. On the wagon www.nobob.info
Sathynos Caldari Pink Bunnies C0VEN	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:10:00 - [64] Just like in case of account sharing I strongly support reminding people of almost forgotten thing called "personal responsibility". I know this might be harsh and might reduce your income, but really proven isk buying (not just selling) should result in a ban. Temporary maybe, for like 3 months at first offense. Account sharing does not directly damage eve economy, only can ruin said account and maybe a corp. ISK buying, just like you described, makes damage on all player base and should be enforced mercilessly. "That cool new shield" something or not. -- "Say yes to pron on Concord billboards" campaing. Eve mercenaries portal: http://www.eve-mercs.com
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Mr Krosis People keep saying CCP keeps the GTCs because they are greedy and want the money for themselves...d I havn't seen anyone explain how this actually happens though. Heres what CCP legitimised. EG. a character decides to buy his way in the game... 1) using RL cash he buys GTC's from CCP 2) he SELLS GTC's for ingame ISK 3) a few days later he has a few bil in his wallet. he just gained a huge advantage over other players by just committing a RMT. from the dev blog "As most of you have heard, (and some have experienced first hand) buying ISK is forbidden" this is where CCP has made their error and what people are saying. CCP state that RMT is bad for the game and considered cheating etc but they themselves are part of the problem. this player can impact the economy because he hasnt used any form of ingame faucet. he now has buying power for pretty much any item ingame he has no need to mine or mission either and could now even become part of the TII brigade because all he needs to do is GTC>ISK till he can afford them. now imagine this on a larger scale. :( Originally by: Ryysa Someone who has a clue, finally... You see - there will always be RMT ... Whatever CCP does, there still will be people selling isk for real money... WIth the GTC system - more people can play the game, and it DRASTICALLY decreases RMT by 3rd parties + CCP gets money that otherwise would be hoarded by some farmers in sweatshops. It's a win-win-win situation... I am amazed some people are so full of jealousy and so blind to see it... actually Ryysa its not jealousy and you seem to have missed the point. RMT is bad. in ANY way. i will agree that CCP's system is a small hope to reduce RMT but they are still trading cash for isk. its plain hypocrisy. if they actually wanted to stop RMT GTC's would ONLY be for sale with cash. if somone then sends a pettition about buying from a player using isk or buying from a non registered reseller then its tough **** its not a valid form of payment. When i first started this game i always used GTC's because i thought it was safe and convenient etc then they stopped it, now they use GTC>ISK. what was wrong with it only being cash subscriptions ? by keeping GTC>ISK people can "cash in" to the game using a perfectly honest and validated method. i think you should change the blog title to "buy from us dont sell to others" if CCP believe that buying a GTC with isk is 100% ok then why dont we see that option in the account payment options ? we dont because CCP will probably then never get a penny in subs. its ok to buy your sub in isk from a RESELLER. if you look at those RESELLERS none of them are mainstream retaillers (uk eg's GAME, GAMEstation, CEX, Chips) to CCP : Please put a huge nail in the coffin of RMT (as best you can) as long as you have GTC>ISK then you look to support it. pettitions could then just state "sorry your actions were not allowed by the EULA and we do not condone the BUYIND AND SELLING of isk in any shape or form. Sorry your pettition for any reimbursement is denied please have this ban instead " Sorry for the long post Mikal Drey

GM Guard	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:22:00 - [66] Hi and sorry for my late appearance in this thread. Many of you have rightfully pointed out that by allowing the sale of game time codes for ISK, we are in essence allowing a form of real money trading. Our goal was of course never to support any form of RMT and the only reason we allow this form of business with it's inevitable side effects is because we wanted to give players a chance to pay for their subscirbtions with isk and thereby in essence making some other EVE player pay their subscription cost for them. We allowed this in order to allow more players to play. We want more people playing EVE. In fact we want all people to play EVE! That is the only gain we saw by allowing this and the only reason why we have stuck to it despite the myriad of problems we have had to deal with because of it (GTC scam cases make me weep in my bed at night). It is true that this opened a loophole for a certain form of RMT but that business is small and measely in comparison to the all consuming monster that is the ISK selling business(TM). One player on this thread rightfully pointed out that RMT through GTCs is limited in the sense that there is a fixed number of game time codes in circulation at any time. That is a very good point and explains the vast size difference between the GTC for ISK business and the ISK for $ business. Also, with the new secure game time code system, the business of GTCs for isk will become even more limited as a money making tool than before. Some call us hypocritical for allowing one thing and banning the other while preaching purity and good virtues. I can understand that point of view in part, especially if people also believe that we are allowing GTC selling for isk to make tons of cash as isk sellers and that we just want to push the other isk selling gangs off the market so we can make even more cash! As I hope most of you will understand that is not the case. We have only one goal and that goal is to watch EVE grow and prosper. We truly want the ISK selling business with all it's devilry and witchcraft out of the game and we will continue to work towards that goal. The purpose of this blog was mainly to point out the downsides of the ISK selling business and the negative effects it undeniably has on the Eve world. Most of you never directly witness these negative effects so I wanted to relate them to you to give you perspective. Every day we in Customer support have to deal with several players who have bought isk in good faith because they truly didn't know it was against the rules, only to receive isk straight from a hacked account that has been phished by agents of one of the ISK selling websites. We hate seeing people in trouble and we want to be able to provide the best service possible. We also want players to know the potential consequences of dealing with these people and to know what they are supporting by doing so. Best regards Senior GM Guard EVE Customer Support.

Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Dal Thrax Why I think CCP dislikes ISK selling but allows GTC selling: 1) With the new GTC system you don't get anything you can resell (you don't get the code only time). I.e. you can only cash in. Dal If this is already implemented since shortly, can we please stop the replies saying "OMG they allow GTC for RL cash for Isk sales ONEONEONE"? Since with the above described mentioned system you can not buy a GTC and resell it ingame anymore.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:38:00 - [68] Thanks for the clarification GM Guard.
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.28 09:49:00 - [69] Originally by: GM Guard Edited by: GM Guard on 28/02/2007 09:28:28 Hi and sorry for my late appearance in this thread. Many of you have rightfully pointed out that by allowing the sale of game time codes for ISK, we are in essence allowing a form of real money trading. Our goal was of course never to support any form of RMT and the only reason we allow this form of business with it's inevitable side effects is because we wanted to give players a chance to pay for their subscribtions with isk : if this was indeed true then i should be able to buy a GTC with isk directly from CCP (GTC scam cases make me weep in my bed at night). *: 100% agree and the new system does indeed help prevent scamming and for that you guys get a little praise.* It is true that this opened a loophole for a certain form of RMT but that business is small and measely in comparison to the all consuming monster that is the ISK selling business(TM). : for as long as this loophole exists people will do it. you shouldne justify it because its the lesser of 2 evils its STLL evil Some call us hypocritical for allowing one thing and banning the other while preaching purity and good virtues. I can understand that point of view in part, especially if people also believe that we are allowing GTC selling for isk to make tons of cash as isk sellers and that we just want to push the other isk selling gangs off the market so we can make even more cash! As I hope most of you will understand that is not the case. We have only one goal and that goal is to watch EVE grow and prosper. *: again this still becomes hypocrisy because CCP themselves do not sell GTC's for isk. reason being they get the cash. prosper by all means but dont be part of the problem for some spurious logic* We truly want the ISK selling business with all it's devilry and witchcraft out of the game and we will continue to work towards that goal. : then again DONT RMT in ANY way. lead by example and others will follow Thank You for a more clearer statement. people know the bads sides of RMT its the do as we say but not as we do attitude that people have responded so badly to.

GM Guard	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:00:00 - [70] The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!". It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP.

postbote	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:18:00 - [71] so playing Eve now is creating a new char and have a gtc ready to sell so you get a new player with 100-300m isk in the wallet if that is going to be EVE the only change is now the RMT is supervised by CCP which prevents scamming I think EVE is more growing with the server and the resulting qos.
ALPHA12125 Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:23:00 - [72] Originally by: GM Guard The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!". It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP. sell the isk on ebay :D
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:32:00 - [73] Originally by: GM Guard The suggestion that we should sell GTCs directly for ISK is flawed although I must admit that for a short second I thought to myself..."Hey....why didn't we think of that!". It is true that this would eliminate any possibility people have of reselling GTCs for ISK but it would also elminate the possibility of CCP getting any subscription fees. While we don't need revenue from isk selling as some have suggested we do need your subscribtion fees to keep things going. Hence game time codes need to generate cash for CCP. totally agree and thats why i pay by DD. I pay for a quality game and the services CCP provide. but for every GTC to ISK its an encouragement for every ISK buyer. I dont believe there is a single arguement that someone could bring up that GTC>ISK is a valid form of payment. the student agruement : cant afford subs. if you cant afford it then you shouldnt be playing. with students complaining about debt problems they should be looking to what and where they are spending their cash. the payment problem : no Debit/credit cards if you got the web then you have the ability to pay by other means. paybycash is supported by CCP. any other arguements ? IF CCP could justify GTC>ISK please do but until then your adding to the system. i reiterate. I see no reason for CCP to allow GTC>ISK
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:39:00 - [74] Originally by: GM Guard Blog So, in summary, if you buy ISK you are a scumsucking lowlife and we all hate you. \o/ -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:02:00 - [75] There are no T2 cartels, the T2 market and is working as intented... There are no T2 cartels, the T2 market is working as intented... There are no... ooups... Regards /Doxs After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead...
Big Al Ki Shoda	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:08:00 - [76] Why would anyone buy isk from a 3rd party when you can buy it directly from CCP with GTCs? Hypocrisy at its finest tbh. Although the ability to pay for your monthly subscription with isk is certainly a nice feature it's potential for abuse (and legal buying of billions upon billions of isk) is simply unacceptable.
RadarJack Amarr Solar Storm	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:18:00 - [77] So.. Buying ISK = BAD! Buying ISK via GTC = GOOD! T2 cartels making ISK to sell = BAD! T2 cartels making ISK to buy GTC's to sell = GOOD! People can win using only in game methods = either unbelievable naivity or corporate double speak gone mad.
Notnearly OnEnough Minmatar JumpDrive Inc	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:48:00 - [78] Edited by: Notnearly OnEnough on 28/02/2007 11:51:10 Hi Well imho there are several easy things that CCP could do. They could put a flag warning system into the game. First flag traps a macro miner. CCP knows what ship everyone has, they have the math for your skills and know the rate which you mine at. so the flag trigger is, perhaps 8 hours a day or 240 hours a month, and if your character produces ore that far exceeds that amount it triggers a GM to watch the person. if your account is mining enough ore that it would take 400 or 500 hours worth of mining, well, the dudes using a macro. Second trigger, use the EVE banking system, same as RL. if a transaction over a certain amount happens it triggers an EVE banking monitor. suddenly CCP sees that "joe miner" is transfering huge amounts of ISK each month , "dudes probably working with a macro miner" Another trigger, check characters for huge amounts of ore transfers, set up a system where you have to sell roids or minerals thru an agent instead of direct to market. this agent will count your ore and then give you your ISK, but the count goes towards your total and CCP can see if you trade huge amounts. Final say on GTC for me, is they do support macro miners. The excuse that they need GTC because they are people in 3rd world spots who play the game that don't have access to CC#'s is probably true, but it's also those places that have the labor that gets 2 dollars a day. So if I was a macro-miner in that country, I sure would use GTC's I'd mine like crazy and sell my ore, but from the new found ISK to sell, i'd reserve a bit to get my GTC for next months macromining time. now I can go for another month. But the crap about no cc#'s is bull, if they are selling ISK, then they get the money from the sale electronically. how else could someone in the states buy ISK from someone in a 3rd world country? if they can set up an electronic transfer to get funds selling ISK, then they can pay for the game electronically. have CCP set up a way to pay with Ebay or Paypal. GTC's allow macrominers to buy time. The other down side to GTC's is CCp doesn't know who you are, I pay for the year with a CC#. CCp knows who I am and could have legal recourse with me if I did something against them. The real dogs, like macro miners and GTC sellers, use GTC's and CCP can not track them. What I think should happen, is people who use GTC's to play, need to have an ingame monitor code used to track how much ISK transfers thru their wallet, and also how much ORE transfers ( in case they use alts to sell it) By using an ingame banking system and an ingame agent to buy and sell ore, they could monitor these high volume players. I also think TECH II is the reason. I know that since CCP and BoB got busted by favoring who got the BPO's for TECH II that CCP has decided to punish everyone else by not creating any new BPO's for TECH II in the game. but this is going to make things worse. With the costs to research a BP to convert it to a TECH II BPC, then the prices of TECH II fittings will become very high, to levels we can't even imagine now. I think if CCP installed many more of the "standard" items in the game, like items with numers ( lets say X9000 cruise or whatever they are called) and all the uber SCOUT stuff, then many players would be happy with standard fittings. SInce the creation of the DRAKE anD Hurricane, the prices of standard Medium high fittings are almost more than TECH II. I get frustrated when looking at the markets for some TECH I uber fittings and they aren't there. CCP needs to install the blueprints into the standard stations so NPC's build them. It's strange looking at a market and there are thousands of parts available for building a POS or even an OUTPOST, yet not one 720MM scout arty. If that stuff was also balanced things would get better. Perhaps if CCP dev's spent more time floating around in various empire alliances instead of hanging in one sided 0.0 outfits, they understand the typical player Using a MAC to play EVE is like using a rifter in a level 5.. scrambled FTL I'd rather lag than use a MAC
4rc4ng3L Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:51:00 - [79] That whole blog feels pointless as long as you are still selling GTC's CCP Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live...
Altaree Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:55:00 - [80] You can't get rich in RL selling GTC's. That is the big difference.
Notnearly OnEnough Minmatar JumpDrive Inc	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:57:00 - [81] Originally by: Altaree You can't get rich in RL selling GTC's. That is the big difference. correct, but you can pay for them with your macromined ISK. I don't think the point started in the thread was about becoming rich selling GTCs it's about how the ISK to buy them comes about
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.28 12:24:00 - [82] GM Guard, you should make a public statement as to what T2 BPOs are being reseeded, so that the EVE community can play this game on a level playground. I guarantee you with a 100% certainty, the the inside information of which T2 BPOs are being reseeded has already been leaked to certain ingame alliances, and said alliances will be scrambling to buy their way into certain research fields to monopolize on the reseeding process. Insider information is what corrupted and destroyed the lottery market to begin with, and allowing yet another opportunity for this to happen is only going to make things worse. So please, for the sake of fairness, just tell all of us which BPOs are getting reseeded. Thank you. Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
Plasticine Perfection	Posted - 2007.02.28 12:30:00 - [83] Edited by: Plasticine Perfection on 28/02/2007 12:29:06 Blog pointless since it doesn't address GTC sales in any way. I was reading through it thinking "aha, this is when they finally tell us they're stopping the trade of GTC's for isk..." but no, that paragraph never appeared. I even checked the bottom of the blog carefully to see if there was a page 2. What exactly was the point of this blog then? It's just a more elaborate version of GM Arkanon's blog from last November (I think) which called ISK-buyers cheats... and then the GTC protected trade policy was introduced and discussion of the issue on the forums was censored and suppressed for 6 months. Really losing any remaining shreds of faith in CCP here, seems the **** you guys are full of is getting deeper every day. Edit: Oh and IBTL. We know how CCP really, really love open and continued discussion of critical issues with their playerbase. Another 5 pages of posts saying "WTF, GTCs! Lol!" and this thread will get the inevitable CCP I-win button.
Robacz Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.28 12:44:00 - [84] Originally by: RadarJack T2 cartels making ISK to buy GTC's to sell = GOOD! You can't resell GTC with new system, so this problem is already solved. _________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.02.28 12:58:00 - [85] Kieron you shot yourself in the foot. Where? When you wrote this: 1. Macro mining We all know about macro miners. We have all seen them mindlessly emptying belts from out under honest miners trying to get ahead in EVE. All of us, whether we know it or not, have experienced the effects they have on mineral prices by constantly undercutting everyone who doesnÆt use a macro to mine 24/7. As it happens, macro programs donÆt need their occasional beauty sleep like the rest of us so competing with them on a free and open market is not possible. It is a common belief that macro mining gangs have ruined the profitability of mining in high security systems and that is sadly very close to the truth. This means that players with means and will to buy their ISK for real money are ruining one of the main sources of income for new players wanting a safe and profitable start to their EVE career. As you can see this is not a minor issue, itÆs a miner issue. Dispite the rampant macro mining and the fact CCP has not been too open with us about the number of macro miners booted since their last report back in 2005 i think it was. Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon prices are higher than they ever were since I started playing eve in october 2004. Meaning that newb players make more isk per hour mining today than they were 2,5 years ago and highend players mining in 0.0 make waaaaay less than they were a year ago. Your argument about macro miners being the cause of anguish for newb players is simply not true. The market for macroers are big alliances that build lots of big ships. We all know who they are. Take a closer look at the customers and you will find suppliers (macrominers) I however wholeheartadly agree with point 1, 2 and 3. Macroers spammers and account hackers should be dealt with in the harshest way possible = bannage Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Buford Early	Posted - 2007.02.28 14:03:00 - [86] After watching a documentary on TV the other day, about RMT and the big companies in China with hundreds of employees working 12 hours 6-7 days a week playing WoW, EVE and other games - I would say you have a very difficult battle ahead if you want to stopping this. It is already too big an industry to succesfully stop it. /me look's at The Noob Comix
31i73 BGG	Posted - 2007.02.28 14:32:00 - [87] Way to go CCP! Good stuff. Everyone hates those pesky macroers and stuff. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Centurin Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.28 14:45:00 - [88] All the points I would have made have already been made by other posters. The BPO cartel has been known for ages. Funny they decided to do something about it now. All in all this blog was more of a joke than anything. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
Zrevak Ashek Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.28 14:49:00 - [89] Edited by: Zrevak Ashek on 28/02/2007 14:47:31 If you have played Eve for a long time and feel certain organisations seems too relentless and seemingly able to play nonstop 23/7, here's why: RMT This clip shows examples from China, but it goes on in many other countries. Some ppl just have too much to loose for them to play fair..
Treher Minmatar Locust Syndicate Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.28 14:52:00 - [90] Edited by: Treher on 28/02/2007 14:54:01 I think the main reason people would purchase and sell GTC for ISK is so that they can purchase a character on the boards. My brother knows all about eve and would like to play. The first thing he asked me about was buying a character because he would be so far behind. I think that GTC for isk is an expensive way to purchase isk as well, so it's not to practical. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay $40 US for a single t2 kitted HAC in game. Personally, the only thing that would make me buy and sell a GTC would be if I were stupid and got podded with my +4 clone and couldn't afford new implants (or borrow the money). In that manner, I'm buying real life time for my money because skill points, unlike ISK, cannot be recovered with hard work. However, I see no ethical difference between that ans someone paying for a 2nd character that will only have industrial skills. They are paying cash to have 2x the number of skill points per hour. ______________________________________________________ I forget which station container has my memory implants.

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