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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
102
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Posted - 2016.06.28 21:20:03 -
[91] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:These ships are pretty much outright better than their Gallente counterparts so I'm really not sure what you're on about...
The moros is in a bad position in the meta right now. A small bit of dps and web bonus isnt really going to help it.
The phoenix and the nag outclass the other two in every regard.
And **** fielding a fleet of vehement just uses Nyxs at that point |
Cade Windstalker
460
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Posted - 2016.06.28 22:33:52 -
[92] - Quote
Lt Shard wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:These ships are pretty much outright better than their Gallente counterparts so I'm really not sure what you're on about... The moros is in a bad position in the meta right now. A small bit of dps and web bonus isnt really going to help it. The phoenix and the nag outclass the other two in every regard. And **** fielding a fleet of vehement just uses Nyxs at that point
Key words "right now". The Moros was top of the heap for a long while, I'm sure it'll come around sooner or later.
Plus people in WHs with more Isk than they know what to do with (literally, I know some of these people) will grab these things just to kill Sleepers faster or win hole-fights with one less Dread needed. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
102
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Posted - 2016.06.28 23:36:27 -
[93] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: win hole-fights with one less Dread needed.
Lmao no
Why would they / I use it over something that requires absolutely no cap to run its tank and guns Also cap escalations are dead. |
Blood ofGODS
Relentless Destruction Immediate Destruction
92
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Posted - 2016.06.28 23:47:24 -
[94] - Quote
Lt Shard wrote:Whats up with the production cost on the dreadnought?
30-40b? You could buy a super for that money and be ten times more effective. And its still outclassed by a nag or phoenix.
Consider 2 or 3 times the mats for a moros, please.
This. 100%. What the heck CCP. It takes 30-40b to build it (lets say 40b for easy rounding because of the new serpentis parts), and at least 5b to fit it nicely. In the end, you're looking at a Moros that costs 45b isk that does a whopping 12.5% more damage and around 30-40% more EHP with 1 extra mid to fit a vindi web.
You're stuck in siege for 5 minutes. Someone drops 3 dreads/1 super minimum and you go in a glorious ball of fire before you exit siege.
For that price, you can literally buy and fit 2 supercarriers (assuming 18.5b for hull/rigs, I've seen on forums) and cheap ish 4b fits. Each super gets 7-10x more ehp, 2-3x the damage, isn't stuck in siege for 5 minutes, a lot harder to catch in lowsec, and can receive reps.
Why not make the build cost something like 6-7b? That would be 4x as much as the standard moros, which is the current theme with the other capitals (4x their t1 equivalent, or so), and would make a fully fitted one somewhere around 10-11b, which would be about twice as much as a well fit out moros, running 5.5b, making it worth it, in a way. |
Bobb Bobbington
Bros Before Holes The Devils' Rejects
324
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Posted - 2016.06.29 01:02:04 -
[95] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Bobb Bobbington wrote:That's not an excuse though for frankly rediculous costs, thats like if CCP made a ship that had a really cool ship model but **** stats and then backed up the reason for making it with "We thought it's cool, it's not even intended for common use". There isn't a point to making something if you fully expect it to never have an "effective" (key word their) use. Cost is not a balance parameter. When CCP originally introduced Titans they figured there might be 3-4 of them in the game at one time at most. We can see how that worked out. That's why I said these aren't cost-effective, not that they wouldn't be effective at all. If you bring an equal number of these ships vs an enemy fielding regular Caps you'll likely kick their teeth in.
I mean, you can completely deadspace fit a t1 cruiser and it might perform the same as a battleship, except it'll be 4 times the cost as the battleship and there'll be no reason to use it. Granted, there's no reason not to use it as the only thing against it is that it's not "cost effective" but people still aren't going to shell out for it when you can buy a standard battleship.
That is the point I am getting at. There is an alternative ship you can use (supercarrier) which performs much better in most ways for less cost. The "cost is not a factor" argument works only may I repeat only if there is not a better alternative for the same price.
This is a signature.
It has a 25m signature.
No it's not a cosmic signature.
Probably.
Btw my corp's recruiting.
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Cade Windstalker
461
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Posted - 2016.06.29 01:58:33 -
[96] - Quote
Bobb Bobbington wrote:I mean, you can completely deadspace fit a t1 cruiser and it might perform the same as a battleship, except it'll be 4 times the cost as the battleship and there'll be no reason to use it. Granted, there's no reason not to use it as the only thing against it is that it's not "cost effective" but people still aren't going to shell out for it when you can buy a standard battleship.
That is the point I am getting at. There is an alternative ship you can use (supercarrier) which performs much better in most ways for less cost. The "cost is not a factor" argument works only may I repeat only if there is not a better alternative for the same price.
And yet if you look around at the Killboards you'll find people flying Officer fit Battleships, sometimes more than one in a month. After a certain point in this game people just stop caring how much stuff costs.
Also you just poked a hole in your own argument. Better in most ways. Someone will use it, either because they have a use for it or because they have more ISK than they know what to do with. In either case, arguing that these things cost too much for anyone to ever use is ridiculous. I give it less than six months before we've got at least one of these Dreads dead on a KB somewhere, and less than a year for the Titan at least showing up on a KB. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
103
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Posted - 2016.06.29 02:43:16 -
[97] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Better in most ways
Oh shut up. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
629
|
Posted - 2016.06.29 04:41:36 -
[98] - Quote
Cost is not a balancing factor, but it is a proliferation factor. Nullsec is already rolling in ISK, and if a Serp dread cost "only" 4x the amount the normal one did, you'd see them everywhere right quick. There'd be at least one in any fleet battle.
Even if you can make an argument about another capital ship's price, there are people that just aren't interested in flying those other capital ships. They have their dread, they trained for their dread, they like their dread, they want this awesome dread, and for prestige purposes they will have this awesome dread.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1814
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Posted - 2016.06.29 12:12:57 -
[99] - Quote
As far I can see, the webber bonus is NOT for Heavy Stasis Grapplers? Right? |
Valorex1
Darkness Consumed The Devils' Rejects
50
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Posted - 2016.06.29 13:31:45 -
[100] - Quote
And here I thought we would be getting new hulls for these new capitals. Disappointing that we aren't. No new hull cant hardly justify the cost to obtain these. |
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Masterdant
Masterderizando
5
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Posted - 2016.06.29 14:24:36 -
[101] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:As far I can see, the webber bonus is NOT for Heavy Stasis Grapplers? Right?
No, those bonuses only apply for Normal Webs, not Grapplers. |
Cade Windstalker
465
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Posted - 2016.06.29 14:52:12 -
[102] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:As far I can see, the webber bonus is NOT for Heavy Stasis Grapplers? Right?
That is correct. Stasis Grapplers are not Stasis Webbifiers and therefore don't get the bonus.
Also that would result, at close ranges, in a Web effect of over 100% strength which would probably cause velocity to loop around and the ship to shoot off at 2147483647 m/s |
Blood ofGODS
Relentless Destruction Immediate Destruction
92
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Posted - 2016.06.29 17:20:04 -
[103] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Also you just poked a hole in your own argument. Better in most ways. Someone will use it, either because they have a use for it or because they have more ISK than they know what to do with. In either case, arguing that these things cost too much for anyone to ever use is ridiculous. I give it less than six months before we've got at least one of these Dreads dead on a KB somewhere, and less than a year for the Titan at least showing up on a KB.
Stop being such a forum warrior and actually play the game. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. The dreads are garbage. 45B isk moros that has 30% more ehp, 12.5% more damage, and 90% web. Or you could, oh I don't know, buy another character and another dread for that price, and dual box dreads, and be more effective in every way. Or you could by 2 supercarriers and be more effective in every way.
In fact, THE ONLY advantages dreads have over supercarriers are that they are cheaper (most of it) and the dps isn't shut down by shooting fighters.
With the Vehemoth, not only do you lose the #1 advantage dreads have over supercarriers, but you lose it by such a ridiculous margin people could suicide a supercarrier into your dread, kill it, and die, and be 70% isk efficient.
Just get a super, have 7-10x more ehp, 2-3x more damage, not be stuck in siege, needs a hic to be caught in lowsec, etc., for half the price |
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
1108
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Posted - 2016.06.29 17:39:28 -
[104] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Ele Rebellion wrote:Are we only getting these three or will there be a carrier to come later? Just these three. What? I can kinda understand not doing faction variants of the brand new FAX machines, but why no carrier? |
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
85
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Posted - 2016.06.29 23:26:28 -
[105] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:HandelsPharmi wrote:As far I can see, the webber bonus is NOT for Heavy Stasis Grapplers? Right? That is correct. Stasis Grapplers are not Stasis Webbifiers and therefore don't get the bonus. Also that would result, at close ranges, in a Web effect of over 100% strength which would probably cause velocity to loop around and the ship to shoot off at 2147483647 m/s
In other words, Vehement is the big brother to this fitting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMl9Xp4h-Fo&list=LLtUE9ceRWec_4PC-3c1BbQA&index=2
Dual Web Scram Paint with Armor Tanking to brawl like a God with High Angle Weapons. |
Valorex1
Darkness Consumed The Devils' Rejects
50
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Posted - 2016.06.30 00:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
Pryce Caesar wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:HandelsPharmi wrote:As far I can see, the webber bonus is NOT for Heavy Stasis Grapplers? Right? That is correct. Stasis Grapplers are not Stasis Webbifiers and therefore don't get the bonus. Also that would result, at close ranges, in a Web effect of over 100% strength which would probably cause velocity to loop around and the ship to shoot off at 2147483647 m/s In other words, Vehement is the big brother to this fitting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMl9Xp4h-Fo&list=LLtUE9ceRWec_4PC-3c1BbQA&index=2 Dual Web Scram Paint with Armor Tanking to brawl like a God with High Angle Weapons.
With a 50b build cost when you can just be counter dropped by sc's is just dumb. Even if in a wh with it you're still just dumb as its just going to be neuted out and a free km for the attackers. Current dreads are disposable this isn't, an sc compared to this is disposable. Go buy an sc and get 10x's the bang for the isk. If this could solo 2-3 sc's now this would make it a sought ship just my opinion. Im sure their are those who will argue that its a mean brawler. But where can you brawl with this without the risk of being countered by 10+ sc's. Only in a wh can you do this and in a wh this is a useless ship to bring to grid as the attackers will bring ranged ships like arty sleips. It doesnt matter if you can do 50k dps. If you can't apply it you're just a km waiting it's turn to be generated. Im directly talking about the serpentis dread. Way to much isk/risk to justify the cost of this ship. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2609
|
Posted - 2016.06.30 01:18:48 -
[107] - Quote
To justify the price tag on a pure prestige basis, these ships need a unique model.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Cade Windstalker
466
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Posted - 2016.06.30 01:56:29 -
[108] - Quote
If you all don't think this is worth the price tag then... don't fly them? People said the same thing about the Revenant and it still took less than six months for someone to pop one, let alone build one.
Not everything in the game needs to be widely used or clearly cost efficient, some things are just giant ISK pinatas. Case and point, Officer Mods. |
Valorex1
Darkness Consumed The Devils' Rejects
50
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Posted - 2016.06.30 02:10:10 -
[109] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:If you all don't think this is worth the price tag then... don't fly them? People said the same thing about the Revenant and it still took less than six months for someone to pop one, let alone build one.
Not everything in the game needs to be widely used or clearly cost efficient, some things are just giant ISK pinatas. Case and point, Officer Mods.
I take that it's more of bragging rights to have one but conpared to the revenant it cant stand up at all. The sc has one thing this ship doesnt it can apply massive dps at long distances. This dread can't. You drop this in field and you're either getting countered by more dreads,sc,or titans. As for the price difference on the 2 ships the revenant i agree with as the bpc is rare to obtain. You're talking about a dread bpc that can be farmed therfore competition will be extremely high. The buyers can literally force the cost of these so low that it isnt worth building for the measly 6b or so in profits you'll make. I can build a titan for right at 57b and flip it for 95-110b. The build time will roughly be the same on parts but only a difference in time to build a hull. But sonce its seeded by npc availability of the bpc will go up cost to produce versus profits will suck. Youre better off building citadels. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
104
|
Posted - 2016.06.30 02:41:53 -
[110] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:If you all don't think this is worth the price tag then... don't fly them? People said the same thing about the Revenant and it still took less than six months for someone to pop one, let alone build one.
Not everything in the game needs to be widely used or clearly cost efficient, some things are just giant ISK pinatas. Case and point, Officer Mods.
I think you are missing the point |
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Cade Windstalker
466
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Posted - 2016.06.30 03:15:19 -
[111] - Quote
Lt Shard wrote:I think you are missing the point
If you feel I'm missing the point then you're free to attempt to clarify, personally though all I'm seeing is a lot of people complaining that they don't feel this would be cost efficient to field, which is kind of exactly the point.
Valorex1 wrote:I take that it's more of bragging rights to have one but conpared to the revenant it cant stand up at all. The sc has one thing this ship doesnt it can apply massive dps at long distances. This dread can't. You drop this in field and you're either getting countered by more dreads,sc,or titans. As for the price difference on the 2 ships the revenant i agree with as the bpc is rare to obtain. You're talking about a dread bpc that can be farmed therfore competition will be extremely high. The buyers can literally force the cost of these so low that it isnt worth building for the measly 6b or so in profits you'll make. I can build a titan for right at 57b and flip it for 95-110b. The build time will roughly be the same on parts but only a difference in time to build a hull. But sonce its seeded by npc availability of the bpc will go up cost to produce versus profits will suck. Youre better off building citadels. If it had its own new killer model then it could sway a bit more to the cost of things. As of now they took a preexisting model, added a ship skin and changed it's bonuses. Hardly worth ccp saying take a look at these awesome new capitals that we didnt put a lot of thought into and let's just change bonuses and make them cost 50b.
I doubt we'll ever see people making these things the same way people build current Dreads, but I can totally see an enterprising person taking advantage of exactly the issues you're bringing up here to basically set the price on a constructed one of these to a rich buyer, or just flat out charging to build it.
Either way all I'm seeing here is reasons you think someone else probably won't want one of these, and why you would never build one just to sell. None of that is really an argument against the cost of these things. |
Valorex1
Darkness Consumed The Devils' Rejects
50
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Posted - 2016.06.30 08:44:26 -
[112] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Lt Shard wrote:I think you are missing the point If you feel I'm missing the point then you're free to attempt to clarify, personally though all I'm seeing is a lot of people complaining that they don't feel this would be cost efficient to field, which is kind of exactly the point. Valorex1 wrote:I take that it's more of bragging rights to have one but conpared to the revenant it cant stand up at all. The sc has one thing this ship doesnt it can apply massive dps at long distances. This dread can't. You drop this in field and you're either getting countered by more dreads,sc,or titans. As for the price difference on the 2 ships the revenant i agree with as the bpc is rare to obtain. You're talking about a dread bpc that can be farmed therfore competition will be extremely high. The buyers can literally force the cost of these so low that it isnt worth building for the measly 6b or so in profits you'll make. I can build a titan for right at 57b and flip it for 95-110b. The build time will roughly be the same on parts but only a difference in time to build a hull. But sonce its seeded by npc availability of the bpc will go up cost to produce versus profits will suck. Youre better off building citadels. If it had its own new killer model then it could sway a bit more to the cost of things. As of now they took a preexisting model, added a ship skin and changed it's bonuses. Hardly worth ccp saying take a look at these awesome new capitals that we didnt put a lot of thought into and let's just change bonuses and make them cost 50b. I doubt we'll ever see people making these things the same way people build current Dreads, but I can totally see an enterprising person taking advantage of exactly the issues you're bringing up here to basically set the price on a constructed one of these to a rich buyer, or just flat out charging to build it. Either way all I'm seeing here is reasons you think someone else probably won't want one of these, and why you would never build one just to sell. None of that is really an argument against the cost of these things.
All I'm really saying is for cost to obtain it's rather disappointing that we didn't get a new ship model to go with it.
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Cade Windstalker
466
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Posted - 2016.06.30 13:38:03 -
[113] - Quote
Valorex1 wrote:All I'm really saying is for cost to obtain it's rather disappointing that we didn't get a new ship model to go with it.
Serpentis don't really do new hulls though. All of their other ships don't have unique hulls so why would these?
Also from a dev standpoint it makes the investment threshold low if CCP have to radically change things or even remote the ships for some reason. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
3267
|
Posted - 2016.06.30 13:51:33 -
[114] - Quote
Valorex1 wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Lt Shard wrote:I think you are missing the point If you feel I'm missing the point then you're free to attempt to clarify, personally though all I'm seeing is a lot of people complaining that they don't feel this would be cost efficient to field, which is kind of exactly the point. Valorex1 wrote:I take that it's more of bragging rights to have one but conpared to the revenant it cant stand up at all. The sc has one thing this ship doesnt it can apply massive dps at long distances. This dread can't. You drop this in field and you're either getting countered by more dreads,sc,or titans. As for the price difference on the 2 ships the revenant i agree with as the bpc is rare to obtain. You're talking about a dread bpc that can be farmed therfore competition will be extremely high. The buyers can literally force the cost of these so low that it isnt worth building for the measly 6b or so in profits you'll make. I can build a titan for right at 57b and flip it for 95-110b. The build time will roughly be the same on parts but only a difference in time to build a hull. But sonce its seeded by npc availability of the bpc will go up cost to produce versus profits will suck. Youre better off building citadels. If it had its own new killer model then it could sway a bit more to the cost of things. As of now they took a preexisting model, added a ship skin and changed it's bonuses. Hardly worth ccp saying take a look at these awesome new capitals that we didnt put a lot of thought into and let's just change bonuses and make them cost 50b. I doubt we'll ever see people making these things the same way people build current Dreads, but I can totally see an enterprising person taking advantage of exactly the issues you're bringing up here to basically set the price on a constructed one of these to a rich buyer, or just flat out charging to build it. Either way all I'm seeing here is reasons you think someone else probably won't want one of these, and why you would never build one just to sell. None of that is really an argument against the cost of these things. All I'm really saying is for cost to obtain it's rather disappointing that we didn't get a new ship model to go with it.
The Angels keep the pretty ship designs to themselves
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viverxia
Serenity Prime The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.06.30 22:35:24 -
[115] - Quote
I wasn't expecting new ship designs for serpentis. Fully expecting the Gurtisa capitals to be stolen caldari hulls as well (CCPlease make it a carrier not a dread for them..)
Excited to see what we get from the nations that don't use standard hulls, Sansha/Angels/BR for sure. Balanced legion they already showed off the concept for their dread (which looks awesome) |
Cade Windstalker
467
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Posted - 2016.07.01 15:12:12 -
[116] - Quote
viverxia wrote:I wasn't expecting new ship designs for serpentis. Fully expecting the Gurtisa capitals to be stolen caldari hulls as well (CCPlease make it a carrier not a dread for them..)
Excited to see what we get from the nations that don't use standard hulls, Sansha/Angels/BR for sure. Balanced legion they already showed off the concept for their dread (which looks awesome)
If the Guristas don't get a Carrier I will eat someone's socks. That would be like the Gallente Carriers not being able to use Fighters and getting 20 BS guns instead...
Also with the Bloodraiders, only the Cruiser and Frigate have unique models, not the Bhaalgorn which is just a reskinned Armageddon, so it's not entirely clear what's going to happen there. Personally I kind of hope the Bhaal gets a remodel, but that's me. I'm always happy for more ship porn :P |
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
86
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Posted - 2016.07.05 04:34:06 -
[117] - Quote
I do not know if anyone has asked yet, so I will:
CCP, once the Shadow of Serpents event is complete, what means will be introduced for the acquisition of new Serpentis capital ship blueprints? Will they be exclusives to Serpentis Loyalty Points stores, or will there be some plan for there to be drops of Capital Ship blueprint copies from destroyed Capital Ships, just as is normally done with Sansha Nation Supercarriers in the Incursions? |
Cade Windstalker
474
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Posted - 2016.07.05 14:29:36 -
[118] - Quote
Pryce Caesar wrote:I do not know if anyone has asked yet, so I will:
CCP, once the Shadow of Serpents event is complete, what means will be introduced for the acquisition of new Serpentis capital ship blueprints? Will they be exclusives to Serpentis Loyalty Points stores, or will there be some plan for there to be drops of Capital Ship blueprint copies from destroyed Capital Ships, just as is normally done with Sansha Nation Supercarriers in the Incursions?
They've at least confirmed that they'll be available from the Serpentis LP Store, I don't think we've heard an explicit statement on whether or not they'll drop from sites. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
63
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Posted - 2016.07.05 15:19:21 -
[119] - Quote
Spotted the bpc's in play today for the dread.
Not real sure who you guys are aiming this thing at.
Base build cost is 20* that of a normal dread, throw in the extra stuff in there and your looking at 50 bil for something that could be used but wont. Putting such a high price tag on the production means we will be left with tons of cheap bpcs when everyone scratches their head as to why they wont sell.
I mean, players are buying the implant that gives 10,800 sp, and paying around 200 mil for it.. Okay guys with 200 mil might be idiots. But will players burn 50 bil on this item, it would be nice if it was something regular players would use.
If it could enter highsec (through gates) then I would see that value being quite useful, but I have to wonder what CCP is smoking to release such a thing at such a price range.
As it looks like, I rekon the majority that are built will never undock - and that is a shame. Cost of 4-5x basic variant seems like it would be better. High enough to not be common, low enough for people to use, High enough for someone to feel its worth wasting resources on killing, low enough that people actually see them and have the chance! |
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
86
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Posted - 2016.07.05 23:04:25 -
[120] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:Spotted the bpc's in play today for the dread.
Not real sure who you guys are aiming this thing at.
Base build cost is 20* that of a normal dread, throw in the extra stuff in there and your looking at 50 bil for something that could be used but wont. Putting such a high price tag on the production means we will be left with tons of cheap bpcs when everyone scratches their head as to why they wont sell.
I mean, players are buying the implant that gives 10,800 sp, and paying around 200 mil for it.. Okay guys with 200 mil might be idiots. But will players burn 50 bil on this item, it would be nice if it was something regular players would use.
If it could enter highsec (through gates) then I would see that value being quite useful, but I have to wonder what CCP is smoking to release such a thing at such a price range.
As it looks like, I rekon the majority that are built will never undock - and that is a shame. Cost of 4-5x basic variant seems like it would be better. High enough to not be common, low enough for people to use, High enough for someone to feel its worth wasting resources on killing, low enough that people actually see them and have the chance!
I imagine that Vehements would be the main command ship for moderate-sized fleets (I'm judging big fleets by B-R5RB), with plenty of support to keep them alive while they rain down the heavy weapons fire on anything unfortunate enough to be caught in their webs. |
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