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A valid exploit? The auction system.

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Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:52:00 - [1] O Thief > hi crazy bear > hi crazy bear > how much for a buyout on the bpo? O Thief > 10bn O Thief > an identical BPO went on the auction forum for 12bn about 6 weeks ago crazy bear > i am aware of this crazy bear > give me 2 minutes to discuss with corp banker please O Thief > rgr crazy bear > ok we will take it O Thief > I will put a contract up in Jita O Thief > can you claim it quickly? crazy bear > yes thte corp banker can claim the contract immediatly crazy bear > do you know how to set it up so he can claim it from 0.0? O Thief > he can claim a contract from anywhere, what is his name? O Thief > i need to put the contract in his name so he can access it remotely O Thief > i can explain how to do that crazy bear > no it must be made to my corp crazy bear > we dont give out his name O Thief > erm O Thief > how do i make it for your corp? O Thief > not done a corp one before crazy bear > ok crazy bear > create new - auction - private crazy bear > name = what ya got on my 40 crazy bear > select item - next O Thief > rgr, i'm doing it as an item exchange crazy bear > im pretty sure it doesnt work out of region O Thief > No owner can be found with 'what ya got on me 40' in the beginning its name. crazy bear > what ya got on MY 40 O Thief > rgr O Thief > it will work out of region crazy bear > ok O Thief > okay its up O Thief > <url=contract:30000142//1041263>Heavy Neutron Blaster II Blueprint</url> O Thief > there is the link to the contract crazy bear > kk 2 seconds i link to banker O Thief > or if he goes into contracts, selects 'my corporation' from the view bar, and leaves everything else blank, it should pop up crazy bear > he says he cannot claim crazy bear > <br>This contract is in The Forge. You can only access outstanding contracts in the region you are currently in. crazy bear > this is eror he gets O Thief > oooh maybe they have changed that since i last did a contract O Thief > you used to be able to claim item exchange contracts from anywhere O Thief > has he tried O Thief > O Thief > or if he goes into contracts, selects 'my corporation' from the view bar, and leaves everything else blank, it should pop up crazy bear > ya crazy bear > he sees it he cannot claim it though crazy bear > can we do auction method that i know works please O Thief > rgr, will re-do O Thief > give me a sec crazy bear > kk crazy bear > hve you used it before? O Thief > no lol O Thief > i'll work it out crazy bear > you must set the buyout to 10b and leave starting bid as default so it does not register as an auction and can be claimed on buyout out of region O Thief > done! O Thief > <url=contract:30000142//1041347>Heavy Neutron Blaster II Blueprint</url> crazy bear > kk cool crazy bear > i linked to banker but he is afk, justmaking dinner for his kids crazy bear > he will claim as soon as he is back O Thief > okay i will wait crazy bear > btw, do you have ny other things for sale? O Thief > nope, just that crazy bear > roger, thanks crazy bear > cya later then :) O Thief > one sec O Thief > can you hang around until its claimed O Thief > then its all done crazy bear > why? O Thief > because if its not claimed within the hour I'll cancel it crazy bear > ok no problem O Thief > thanks O Thief > so is this chap back yet? crazy bear > no O Thief > kk, why have you made a 1,000 isk bid against it? crazy bear > for fun O Thief > hmmmm O Thief > either this gets claimed within 30 minutes or I'm filing an exploit petition crazy bear > why? O Thief > because putting a bid up means I cannot cancel it O Thief > I'm not worried, it will be cancelled for me by a GM, I'm just telling you how long you have crazy bear > yes crazy bear > no, no it wont O Thief > watch and learn crazy bear > because it is a valid scam :) crazy bear > hmmm crazy bear > you are only the 20th person to say that O Thief > its quite clearly using an in-game system in a manner it was not designed, but lets let the GM's decide that, the petition has been filed :) O Thief > good bye
Templer Relleg x13 Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:54:00 - [2] This is a valid thing. Live with it.
Jarjar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:54:00 - [3] Yeah, it's valid... Sorry. "In Communist China ISK buys YOU!!" - random bio
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:56:00 - [4] You set up an auction allowing only your buyer to bid on it. Auctions unless they say so have no reserve. This means that the buyer can bid whatever he wants and still win the auction. How is that an exploit of the system? It seems like an exploit of someone who doesn't understand how auctions work, yes. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:57:00 - [5] So you take a complex system, understand a particular quirk which most lay people will clearly be unaware, and exploit it for personal gain? I would say its the very definition of exploit. It's using a game mechanic in a manner which is clearly NOT intended.
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:57:00 - [6] You have just made a VERY expensive mistake. This scam has been reported on the forums many times, and every time it's been passed as being valid. Not an exploit. Sorry for your loss My skills
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:00:00 - [7] People still fall for this? Sorry to hear you got screwd mate, but this is a valid scam, and people been screaming and moaning about it for months. My guess is you dont read the forums much. As GM's say, when they tell us to jump into a lake, I hope you will be able to recover from this loss.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:02:00 - [8] Its not an exploit because CCP doesn't care too much about customers. Seems you unfortunately lost a lot of money. ----- $Forum + $Bob + $Devs == $ForumPostCount+++++;
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Raivi on 08/03/2007 20:59:33 It's a scam, scams are perfectly legit. Mean, but legit. ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
maGz Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:03:00 - [10] Butter Noob got scammed ____________ Coming soon...

Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:04:00 - [11] That has the CCP seal of non-exploit. -------------------------------------------- Welcome to the best slideshow on Earth!
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:07:00 - [12] I accept the dog-eat-dog nature of EVE, I've had expensive haulers suicided etc, and thats fine - but this isn't gameplay, its a technicality. The auction system doesnt appear to warn people they cannot cancel. All it would have taken was a pop-up box and I would not have made the auction. The end result is that those who play eve a lot and learn the quirks can quickly profit by exploiting the lack of knowledge of the user interface and control systems, rather than any element of gameplay etc. I mean, I accept just about everything thrown my way, but drawn the line at losing out on a technicality of which I was unaware and not warned by the auction system.
Rudy Metallo Minmatar G.H.O.S.T	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:07:00 - [13] Valid. Its a *****, but it's also your own fault for falling for it I'm afraid. Sorry man.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:08:00 - [14] /me clears throats /me excercises vocal cords a bit in preparation MOTHER******* PWNED!!!! ahem. Thank you. (No, this is not an exploit, an auction is a competition to get something for the lowest price possible played against other bidders, with only one competetor (bidder), it will go for the starting price) - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:08:00 - [15] Originally by: maGz Butter Noob got scammed yeah I'm not playing eve anymore, this money was for other people! but still, I know what eve is like, but this is pretty odd...
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: maGz Butter Noob got scammed yeah I'm not playing eve anymore, this money was for other people! but still, I know what eve is like, but this is pretty odd... It's true its been reported on the forum for ages, all though I do feel for you because well if u didn't know then u didnt know! I dont think your get anything from your petition
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Mr Manufacture I accept the dog-eat-dog nature of EVE, I've had expensive haulers suicided etc, and thats fine - but this isn't gameplay, its a technicality. The auction system doesnt appear to warn people they cannot cancel. All it would have taken was a pop-up box and I would not have made the auction. The end result is that those who play eve a lot and learn the quirks can quickly profit by exploiting the lack of knowledge of the user interface and control systems, rather than any element of gameplay etc. I mean, I accept just about everything thrown my way, but drawn the line at losing out on a technicality of which I was unaware and not warned by the auction system. Of course you can't cancel it - part of the risk of any auction is not getting good bids on it - from Eve to Ebay. Eve is not going to remove that risk, or pander to your ignorance of how auctions work. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:12:00 - [18] what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended Read DS post, I agree that its a bit lame but people will do these things and if you setup an action for only 1 bidder (or 1 corp) then of course they can bid what they want. When I was reading your convo with that guy I was hoping you wasn't going to fall for it but it seems you didnt think before you made the decision to put it up for only a buy out price.
Kareltje	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended You don't get to define what is or is not an exploit. The GM's do. And they don't define this as an exploit. Good to see this scam still works, congrats to the current owner of the bpo for finding the dumbest player in EvE.

Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:15:00 - [21] Technically speaking this scam falls within the designed auction system. However, the auction system and the documentation is **y, unless you're a forum *** you're unlikely to know about this tactic and people fall for it all the time. ----- $Forum + $Bob + $Devs == $ForumPostCount+++++;
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:20:00 - [22] Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended It's an auction. You created on with one person. The result of this is inevitable, whether in Eve or eBay. Consider this: An auction is a real-life concept, if you go to someone who never played Eve and tell them what you did, they will likely predict the result. A gatecamp in a 0.0 chokepoint system is a purely Eve concept, a person who has not played Eve before will not know what it is or how to avoid it. This are more serious, more common and less known to newer players than the minor intricacies of auctions. They are also not really intended gameplay (did CCP really intend gatecamps? Doubt it.). Thus a 0.0 gatecamp is more of an exploit than this scam. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Kareltje Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended You don't get to define what is or is not an exploit. The GM's do. And they don't define this as an exploit. Good to see this scam still works, congrats to the current owner of the bpo for finding someone with a life outside EVE. fixed it for you
Wiggy69 In Soviet Russia Ships Build You	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:23:00 - [24] Good one Butter Dog, gave me a good giggle Better luck next time ----- Wiggy's Bad Spelling and Grammar Complaints Department
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:24:00 - [25] When people use a game system for something outside it's designed intent, this can be considered either innovation or an exploit. The company in charge of the game decides. In this case he wasn't using a bug, he was lying about how a game system worked so that he could trick someone. Call it PVP. ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended It's an auction. You created on with one person. The result of this is inevitable, whether in Eve or eBay. Consider this: An auction is a real-life concept, if you go to someone who never played Eve and tell them what you did, they will likely predict the result. A gatecamp in a 0.0 chokepoint system is a purely Eve concept, a person who has not played Eve before will not know what it is or how to avoid it. This are more serious, more common and less known to newer players than the minor intricacies of auctions. They are also not really intended gameplay (did CCP really intend gatecamps? Doubt it.). Thus a 0.0 gatecamp is more of an exploit than this scam. er, no this isn't gameplay - its getting someone on a simple technicality, its a user interface issue losing a BPO to a gatecamp - fine having a BPO stolen from me by a friend - fine losing a BPO due to a technicality in the user interface of which I was not personally aware - just, bizarre Quite simply, its a user interface issue and I freely admit I've not used the auction system before... clearly the other person knew it very well, and used knowledge of a technical aspect of the user interface to exploit it for personal gain my problem is that this falls outside the remit of any 'dog-eat-dog' gameplay - its something else. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Kareltje Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended You don't get to define what is or is not an exploit. The GM's do. And they don't define this as an exploit. Good to see this scam still works, congrats to the current owner of the bpo for finding someone with a life outside EVE. fixed it for you This is so childish it actually conjures the sound of a baby crying in my mind. Makes me want to be a scammer. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended It's an auction. You created on with one person. The result of this is inevitable, whether in Eve or eBay. Consider this: An auction is a real-life concept, if you go to someone who never played Eve and tell them what you did, they will likely predict the result. A gatecamp in a 0.0 chokepoint system is a purely Eve concept, a person who has not played Eve before will not know what it is or how to avoid it. This are more serious, more common and less known to newer players than the minor intricacies of auctions. They are also not really intended gameplay (did CCP really intend gatecamps? Doubt it.). Thus a 0.0 gatecamp is more of an exploit than this scam. er, no this isn't gameplay - its getting someone on a simple technicality, its a user interface issue losing a BPO to a gatecamp - fine having a BPO stolen from me by a friend - fine losing a BPO due to a technicality in the user interface of which I was not personally aware - just, bizarre Quite simply, its a user interface issue and I freely admit I've not used the auction system before... clearly the other person knew it very well, and used knowledge of a technical aspect of the user interface to exploit it for personal gain my problem is that this falls outside the remit of any 'dog-eat-dog' gameplay - its something else. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. This is not a user interface issue. You created an auction with a minimum bid X and buyout Y. This auction was open to one person only. Thus the first, last and only bid was X. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended It's an auction. You created on with one person. The result of this is inevitable, whether in Eve or eBay. Consider this: An auction is a real-life concept, if you go to someone who never played Eve and tell them what you did, they will likely predict the result. A gatecamp in a 0.0 chokepoint system is a purely Eve concept, a person who has not played Eve before will not know what it is or how to avoid it. This are more serious, more common and less known to newer players than the minor intricacies of auctions. They are also not really intended gameplay (did CCP really intend gatecamps? Doubt it.). Thus a 0.0 gatecamp is more of an exploit than this scam. er, no this isn't gameplay - its getting someone on a simple technicality, its a user interface issue losing a BPO to a gatecamp - fine having a BPO stolen from me by a friend - fine losing a BPO due to a technicality in the user interface of which I was not personally aware - just, bizarre Quite simply, its a user interface issue and I freely admit I've not used the auction system before... clearly the other person knew it very well, and used knowledge of a technical aspect of the user interface to exploit it for personal gain my problem is that this falls outside the remit of any 'dog-eat-dog' gameplay - its something else. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. This is not a user interface issue. You created an auction with a minimum bid X and buyout Y. This auction was open to one person only. Thus the first, last and only bid was X. And where on that screen does it state that I cannot cancel an auction once started? this is my issue. I would have NEVER set it up had I known I could not cancel it. It IS a technicality. It is NOT gameplay.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended It's an auction. You created on with one person. The result of this is inevitable, whether in Eve or eBay. Consider this: An auction is a real-life concept, if you go to someone who never played Eve and tell them what you did, they will likely predict the result. A gatecamp in a 0.0 chokepoint system is a purely Eve concept, a person who has not played Eve before will not know what it is or how to avoid it. This are more serious, more common and less known to newer players than the minor intricacies of auctions. They are also not really intended gameplay (did CCP really intend gatecamps? Doubt it.). Thus a 0.0 gatecamp is more of an exploit than this scam. er, no this isn't gameplay - its getting someone on a simple technicality, its a user interface issue losing a BPO to a gatecamp - fine having a BPO stolen from me by a friend - fine losing a BPO due to a technicality in the user interface of which I was not personally aware - just, bizarre Quite simply, its a user interface issue and I freely admit I've not used the auction system before... clearly the other person knew it very well, and used knowledge of a technical aspect of the user interface to exploit it for personal gain my problem is that this falls outside the remit of any 'dog-eat-dog' gameplay - its something else. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. This is not a user interface issue. You created an auction with a minimum bid X and buyout Y. This auction was open to one person only. Thus the first, last and only bid was X. And where on that screen does it state that I cannot cancel an auction once started? this is my issue. I would have NEVER set it up had I known I could not cancel it. It IS a technicality. It is NOT gameplay. First of all, where does it state that you can cancel it? It doesn't. You made an assumption, and bet a huge amount of money on that assumption. But, on top of this, if you give it a microsecond of thought it's obvious that you aren't going to be able to cancel it because it is a contract, the point of which is to accept the risk of your item selling for near your minimum price, with the possible reward of it selling for a much higer price. Being able to cancel it would remove the risk, and thus is always going to be impossible. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.

Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:38:00 - [31] Funny how they stoped privat auction to ppl but not corperations. Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Crumplecorn First of all, where does it state that you can cancel it? It doesn't. You made an assumption, and bet a huge amount of money on that assumption. But, on top of this, if you give it a microsecond of thought it's obvious that you aren't going to be able to cancel it because it is a contract, the point of which is to accept the risk of your item selling for near your minimum price, with the possible reward of it selling for a much higer price. Being able to cancel it would remove the risk, and thus is always going to be impossible. Its a fair assumption to make, given that you CAN cancel other forms of contract, such as an Item Exchange. The point is, this is getting someone on a technicality of which they may simply not be aware - that this is a type of contract you cannot cancel, but ONLY when someone has made a bid against it. Its a fairly complex system - I wasnt aware of these details until it was too late. I don't really think its appropriate that getting someone on a technicality is not considered an exploit. It sure is not gameplay.
Jarjar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:42:00 - [33] Originally by: Lilan Kahn Funny how they stoped privat auction to ppl but not corperations. ... Why? There's no use for a one-man auction, he'll place one bid and that's it. Corporation auctions do have legitimate uses, however. "In Communist China ISK buys YOU!!" - random bio
Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Jarjar Originally by: Lilan Kahn Funny how they stoped privat auction to ppl but not corperations. ... Why? There's no use for a one-man auction, he'll place one bid and that's it. Corporation auctions do have legitimate uses, however. Do tell, if i whanted to make a auction to my corp id just tab my corperation. So 1 man corps or 3 man corps wil be the new scamer way its gonna get changed soonÖ like private auctions to induviduals are. due to number of petisons and general whine abut. Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Crumplecorn First of all, where does it state that you can cancel it? It doesn't. You made an assumption, and bet a huge amount of money on that assumption. But, on top of this, if you give it a microsecond of thought it's obvious that you aren't going to be able to cancel it because it is a contract, the point of which is to accept the risk of your item selling for near your minimum price, with the possible reward of it selling for a much higer price. Being able to cancel it would remove the risk, and thus is always going to be impossible. Its a fair assumption to make, given that you CAN cancel other forms of contract, such as an Item Exchange. The point is, this is getting someone on a technicality of which they may simply not be aware - that this is a type of contract you cannot cancel, but ONLY when someone has made a bid against it. Its a fairly complex system - I wasnt aware of these details until it was too late. I don't really think its appropriate that getting someone on a technicality is not considered an exploit. It sure is not gameplay. An item exchange cannot be cancelled once it is accepted. An auction is accepted once someone places a bid. So, the behvaiour is the same. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:50:00 - [36] lol, look where your loud local mouth got you butterpeen
Liabrath Gallente Argent Industries	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:51:00 - [37] Haha, It's always funny having people who don't know what an auction (with starting bid as reserve) works, and then crying and going to quit the game. I'd say give me your stuff, but obviously someone else is getting it already. Good Luck with your next game. === === === === === If I win an auction, please send me a contract link by EvE mail.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:52:00 - [38] Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 08/03/2007 21:50:14 oh, its fine, really - it's not my money and i actually stopped playing about 3 months ago (might start again casually soon-ish) its the shareholders in my old ISS project I feel sorry for, this was their refund!
Illyria Ambri Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:53:00 - [39] Its a simple solution.. when you decide to sell the scammer something for buyout price.. Minamum bid should ALWAYS been buyout price or .01isk less ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Happiness is a warm railgun, Love is a stocked missle launcher. Sexual extacy is watching that NME Battleship go boom. "Will i
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:53:00 - [40] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 08/03/2007 21:51:16 I cannot believe how stupid people are. People have whined and whined for an hardwired auction system that cannot be cancelled. People wanted to know that when they bid on something, that the seller cannot just say "lolz reserve 100b" or just "rofl pricecheck" and waste everyones time. The auction system is useless for a 100 different reasons, but the one good thing about it is that you cannot cancel it. After all, the buyer cannot retract his bid either. So when you bid you know that a)you will get the item b)someone will bid more This is the very damn point of an ingame auction system. Whats the point of an ingame auction system that can be cancelled? Now for your problem: This is an exploit. Of your ignorance. If you fit lasers on your dominix because you didnt take the time to read up on game mechanics, then get ganked by t1 frigates, would you whine on the forums? By the way, sometimes GMs do cancel those auctions. Everyone is equal, but some are more equal then others, after all...

Lord MooMoo	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:01:00 - [41] Dumbass. Did you not see the "item exchange" option? (Yes, you can claim these from anywhere.)
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Lord MooMoo Dumbass. Did you not see the "item exchange" option? (Yes, you can claim these from anywhere.) Of course, despite not playing for three months I had a full and complete knowledge of every nuance of the contract system, which is quite clearly intuitive and faultless by design. How could I have been so very, very stupid. Naughty me.
crazy bear	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:05:00 - [43] thank you, come again. scamming is fun, but emo tears make it so much better.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:06:00 - [44] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Lord MooMoo Dumbass. Did you not see the "item exchange" option? (Yes, you can claim these from anywhere.) Of course, despite not playing for three months I had a full and complete knowledge of every nuance of the contract system, which is quite clearly intuitive and faultless by design. How could I have been so very, very stupid. Naughty me. Not knowing about the contract system - free Trading a hugely valuable item using the system anyway - priceless - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Manas The Graduates Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:10:00 - [45] Yes, more tiresome metagaming is just what Eve needs..
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:11:00 - [46] Originally by: crazy bear thank you, come again. scamming is fun, but emo tears make it so much better. well, its more a question than anything - or a debate, even I mean, I'm genuinely suprised its not an exploit. Thats it really. enjoy the BPO
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:13:00 - [47] You cannot cancel auctions as it is a form of escrow. clear now? Merc Blog
sharkyballs Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp.	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:21:00 - [48] i trully do feel for you. letting a complete stranger tell you what to do with a sell concerning 10bn? when you buy dinner at the reasterant, do you let the waiter order for you only to find he's given you a 4000isk bill to pay? btw, i've got a bridge i'd like to sell you as well. were you desperate?
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:21:00 - [49] Does there exist any auction system in the world where you can cancel the auction after a bid has been made, and you have no reserve? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Harald Hauler	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:25:00 - [50] same thing happend to me with the very same guy. however i lost way less money. i searched for long time and found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. i even open one and closed it immediatelly without any bids. so i thought i could close it later as well. i was wrong. after that scam i searched again and again and still found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. Mr Manufacture is absolutly right IMHO. if there is no hint for things one cannot be considered to know, it's an exploit.

Sphynx Stormlord Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Hllaxiu Does there exist any auction system in the world where you can cancel the auction after a bid has been made, and you have no reserve? Yes - auctioning things on the forums in eve-online. Just an easy example, I'm sure there are others.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:31:00 - [52] You know what ****es me off? This guy had somethin worth 10 billion isk and he falls for auction scams. I ain't never seen a billion and I'd never go setting up a starting bid that low. Darwinism nerfed him, but where's my boost? Don't answer that. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - "186,282 miles per second; It's not just a good idea, it's the law."
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Harald Hauler same thing happend to me with the very same guy. however i lost way less money. i searched for long time and found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. i even open one and closed it immediatelly without any bids. so i thought i could close it later as well. i was wrong. after that scam i searched again and again and still found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. Mr Manufacture is absolutly right IMHO. if there is no hint for things one cannot be considered to know, it's an exploit. This is my point really, with no hint that you cannot cancel (even though you can cancel some forms of contract) its wide open for exploiting whatever though, its a game, and one i havent played for several months... i dont care too much but this loophole does need closing!
Chrumz	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:13:00 - [54] Man, as many people have allready stated, why in the world did you let a complete stranger tell you what to do when you did not know how the contract system works. It is only common sense that you would not be able to cancel the auction once someone had put a bid on it. The fact that you did not know this is not a exploit. Now what he did was not nice at all, but was completely legal and fair in game. It is not up to CCP to make sure that you know how to use the in game features, and once again not knowing them is not a exploit, it's just ignorance. I am glad that I handle all of my finances and do not let people like you handle them. BTW: do you have any more tech 2 bpo's you would like to sell?
Nobler Caldari Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:41:00 - [55] I bet he kicked the **** out of something.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Harald Hauler same thing happend to me with the very same guy. however i lost way less money. i searched for long time and found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. i even open one and closed it immediatelly without any bids. so i thought i could close it later as well. i was wrong. after that scam i searched again and again and still found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. Mr Manufacture is absolutly right IMHO. if there is no hint for things one cannot be considered to know, it's an exploit. No, because this is not an Eve thing. Auctions cannot be retracted once there is a bid. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Larusonyc Dleif	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:15:00 - [57] I used to think scammers were the worst form of life in Eve, then I read this. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy LOL.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:18:00 - [58] All I see in this thread is that the OP lost @ EVE and is a sore loser. EVE IS MEAN, NEVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST SOMEONE YOU DO NOT KNOW, AND EVEN IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE, DON'T TRUST THEM EITHER! CCP is comprised of greifers from UO, they made EVE to be a greifers sandbox. Adapt and survive. -=^=-
Lurtz Caldari Gunrunners and Gamblers	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:24:00 - [59] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Crumplecorn First of all, where does it state that you can cancel it? It doesn't. You made an assumption, and bet a huge amount of money on that assumption. But, on top of this, if you give it a microsecond of thought it's obvious that you aren't going to be able to cancel it because it is a contract, the point of which is to accept the risk of your item selling for near your minimum price, with the possible reward of it selling for a much higer price. Being able to cancel it would remove the risk, and thus is always going to be impossible. Its a fair assumption to make, given that you CAN cancel other forms of contract, such as an Item Exchange. The point is, this is getting someone on a technicality of which they may simply not be aware - that this is a type of contract you cannot cancel, but ONLY when someone has made a bid against it. Its a fairly complex system - I wasnt aware of these details until it was too late. I don't really think its appropriate that getting someone on a technicality is not considered an exploit. It sure is not gameplay. You can only cancel other contracts up till the point when someone else interacts with it. SAME HERE. Once they look at and accept your item exchange you cannot cancel it. Once someone accepts your courier you cannot cancel it. Once someone bids on your auction, you cannot cancel it. Players may not be aware that Warp disrupters can keep them from running away, this doesn't make it an exploit to use them against them. As has been said it isn't an technicality. Further your thought on it won't change it. I HATE scammers, but at the same time, I have no pity for people that let themselves be scammed.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:25:00 - [60] "to bad ignorance isn't painful" I love it when former hostiles fall prey to their own stupidity. whyTF would anyone do that in the first place.. you are asking to get kicked *To Bad Ignorance isnt Painful*

Lance Hawke New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:29:00 - [61] Look, you got owned. Suck it up and move on. Stop complaining here because you got beat by someone who knows the game better than you do. That's how it should work. Regardless of if you think EVE should warn you about every little thing. You lost because you didn't stop and think.
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:33:00 - [62] Originally by: sartorii "to bad ignorance isn't painful" I love it when former hostiles fall prey to their own stupidity. whyTF would anyone do that in the first place.. you are asking to get kicked Because he expected a 'Cancel Auction' option. Saw no indication there wouldn't be one. Learned there wasn't one the hard way, like lots of people have done. Read the post for more details. Also, if ignorance was painful, we'd all walk around in constant pain. Also, normally I wouldn't nitpick, but considering your subject matter, grammar-checking your sig would be advisable.
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:36:00 - [63] Edited by: Benglada on 09/03/2007 00:34:35 Originally by: Mr Manufacture what interests me about this, is that by all accounts its the very definition of an exploit - using game mechanics in a way they were clearly not intended Indeed, but the word "Exploit" isnt technically not aloud. edit: and a good quote, "Ignorance of the law is not an excuse" --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos
Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:47:00 - [64] Originally by: Crumplecorn Not knowing about the contract system - free Trading a hugely valuable item using the system anyway - priceless
heheheh	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:04:00 - [65] 1, Dont beleive everything that people tell you in a chat window. 2, Dont put expensive stuff on a contract unless you know what you are doing, (it takes 30 seconds to findout how) 3,Dont assume that because this "technicality" is decieving that it in any way is exploiting the system. on top of that most people would assume that if they set an auction for one person then only one person can accept it and therefor can take it for minumum price, most of us actually know about this from a life outside of eve unlike you mentioned.
Mr V	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:08:00 - [66] To be fair, you CAN cancel ebay auctions even after people have bid on them, provided you have a good reason for doing so. That said, I can't help but wonder - how is it that so many people come in possession of multi-billion-worth items without knowing fairly basic game mechanics...
B0rn2KiLL DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:18:00 - [67] what can i tell ya, eve attracts ******s like a cropse does the plague.. :/ --- new sig, Hijack it and ill eat u. Imaran hands B0rn2KiLL a fork - Come get some!11
Larusonyc Dleif	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:46:00 - [68] NO ITS UNPOSSIBLE BUDDER DOGGER IS SMARTEST L33T3ST PVPER EVAH IN TEH EVE HE cAN NOT be SCamZord by teh OTheR NO00BZOR5!!!!111!1!!11!!ONE!!!1111ELEVENONEONEONEEXCLAMATION.
Trind2222 Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:55:00 - [69] whel private auction is gona be removed mening you can only make private auction to the corp you are in. But never exept a freeform contract or private auction if you don't know the buyer. Freeform is wery buged try make one is pain in the ass. most valid contracts are item excange but look on the contract read it you may dedect the scam thot be fast on acepting contracts if you are in a hurry wait the next day.
Arialla Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:19:00 - [70] Originally by: Benglada and a good quote, "Ignorance of the law is not an excuse" And if a case like this makes it into a court of *Law* then he would be refunded and there would be consequences for the scammer. However, you cannot go and complain to CONCORD and have the scammer's market priviliges taken away, especially since the scammer can be "reborn" almost instantly. You cannot wardec the corp or hunt down the scammer as the item in question will be passed on to the main or another alt and the "scammer" will cease to exist. You just lost an item to a scammer without any recourse. You made a mistake and there is no way to get any kind of revenge or recoup some losses. You are forced to suck it up while the cheating scum gets away squeeky clean. The scammer is hiding behind alt-character meta-gaming to protect his actual identity. If the true identity of the scammer is known a concerted effort can be made by the entire "law" abiding community of EVE to mark these criminals and pod them whenever they are spotted. If CCP wants to allow characters to be scheming underhanded scum of the universe then at least give those with dignity, honour, respect and a moral backbone the ability to name and shame these criminals, hunt them down and put them out of their misery like the rabid dogs they are. Remove the ability for these cowards to hide behind meta-gaming alternate characters or end the scamming. Yours honourably, Arialla

RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.03.09 03:34:00 - [71] mr manufacture i still love you im sorry for your loss.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2007.03.09 04:44:00 - [72] Just wanted to let you know Butte....O Theif that I would have given you more for the BPO if you would have contacted me. Sleep well --- [Video] Skool of Harpy - Da Blarpy
Crydawner	Posted - 2007.03.09 05:18:00 - [73] come on, crazy bear smells like a scammer....you know what i mean when you can 'smell' a scammer? Am only 7 days old and i avoided a scam like this on a dread small shield booster i found (an auction where only one person/corp can claim? no wai d00d!!). I can't explain it but anyhow...sorry to hear about your/your corps loss. unless this is entirely fabricated, crazy wolf doesn't exist per-se, and you are trying to make off with 10billion of your corps ISK whilst blaming it on someone else and putting on this show to make it seem genuine :) that's how paranoid i am :)
All Clear	Posted - 2007.03.09 05:31:00 - [74] What ya got on my 40 is still around?? I thought they disbanded after bella fea and co joined bob. Oh well, still up to their same old shenanigans. Looks like bob got a new t2 bpo.
Fracking Beach	Posted - 2007.03.09 05:53:00 - [75] Noone here can honestly say that the OP intended or wanted to give out that BPO for 1000 isk. Fact that the game mechanics allow trickery like this to happen so easily is a shame. Simple fix would be to allow the auction starter to cancel the auction if wants todo that.
Brunswick2 eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.09 06:18:00 - [76] Originally by: Arialla However, you cannot go and complain to CONCORD and have the scammer's market priviliges taken away, especially since the scammer can be "reborn" almost instantly. You cannot wardec the corp or hunt down the scammer as the item in question will be passed on to the main or another alt and the "scammer" will cease to exist. You just lost an item to a scammer without any recourse. You made a mistake and there is no way to get any kind of revenge or recoup some losses. Clearly you've never seen Outbreak's video, "Karma." You can get revenge, you just have to be creative.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.03.09 06:53:00 - [77] This has been done to death several times on the forums already, but basically I can sum it up as follows.... Quote: Scammee> I have something valuable to trade/auction ! Scammer> Auction it to me but make it an auction to my corp with a low starting bid to save us all a bit on money Scammee> OK, done... Scammee> ... Scammee> why have you only bid 10K? Scammer> HAHAH!! PWNZ0RED Scammee> Oh, crap, I can't cancel it. <Scammee whines on the forums> Scammee> BOO HOO, I WAS SCAMMED WITH AN EXPLOIT Forum Rabble> HAHAH!! PWNZ0RED NOOBCAKE Forum Rabble> Oh no, here we go again CCP> It's not an exploit Scammee> Yes it is Forum Rabble>No it's not CCP> It's not an exploit, but we are going to fix it I've said before that I personally consider this an exploit of a stupid game mechanic but CCP maintains that it's not... but that it will be fixed (which seems contradictory to me). In this case you are SOL, sorry for your loss. The biggest issue is as someone else mentioned, there is NO way to punish the scammer in all this. There is NO RISK to the scammer (OK, maybe if they use a main that they actually intend to keep playing with but that's probably not very likely)
Plasticine Perfection	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:11:00 - [78] Edited by: Plasticine Perfection on 09/03/2007 07:07:51 The fact that CCP made the decision back when this kind of scam first came to light to NOT class this as an exploit is, in my opinion, shameful. As Butter Dog has said, and I agree with, this clearly wasn't intended to be something encouraged by the contract system as evidenced by the fact that CCP have said they're going to fix it. If it's intended don't fix it. If it isn't intended label it an exploit. At the very least they should have hot-fixed in a pop-up warning when creating corp-restricted item exchange contracts. This is a UI problem, the contracts UI is terrible. Just because we've all got used to working with CCP's appalling interfaces doesn't make them good. Sorry for your loss Butter Dog, and I hope that some of the scum in this thread who are gloating over it and rubbing your nose it in suffer similar losses in the near future.
VinceNoir Amarr Pyrrhus Sicarii	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:20:00 - [79] Oh **** butter divided by zero.
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:21:00 - [80] The OP was selling a 10bil bpo on someone elses behalf. Who is to say he realy got scammed? He might as well have made up this story to scam the original owners of the bpo out of their money.

Nero Ya'ng Caldari YaFa Empires	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:22:00 - [81] i cant understand why ppl fall for this scamm. when you have a Starting bid for 1m and a buyout of 1.5b why the hell should one do the buyout^^ well on a privat auction. makes no sence to me. just think twice when doing bussines. or take a look in the forums.
Admiral Farragut	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:23:00 - [82] I must say that I blame CCP for this. They do not create good documentation about items like this, and they let blatant scammers run rampant. It is complete crap when jackasses like these are allowed to ruin the game for everybody else. Even WoW has rules against scammers, why doesn't CCP? Oh, right... because WoW has over 6 million subscribers, yet CCP does not. To scam is to deprive via deceit. This is obviously a case of deceit, as the individual gave up an item worth literally months to years of his playtime for absolutely nothing. Scams are illegal, and this individual should have his BPO reinstated. Again, i reiterate that it is CCP's fault for creating misleading game mechanics that allow for such behavior; it should never be tolerated. I am disappointed that a dev has neither acted nor commented on this horrible atrocity. Some of you may not agree with me regarding this issue, but I cannot stand it when weak cowards prey upon those who do not know any better. This cowardice shows a lack of character, as well as a lack of respect towards human beings. He should be banned. That is all. -Elmo
Alumion Amarr Golden Fury Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:46:00 - [83] To the OP, you're crying foul, but you are such a bloody hypocrite crazy bear > you must set the buyout to 10b and leave starting bid as default so it does not register as an auction and can be claimed on buyout out of region O Thief > done! Were this true, would using it not be an exploit? You know an exploit is an exploit even if it benefits you ---
Crydawner	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Admiral Farragut I must say that I blame CCP for this. They do not create good documentation about items like this, and they let blatant scammers run rampant. It is complete crap when jackasses like these are allowed to ruin the game for everybody else. Even WoW has rules against scammers, why doesn't CCP? Oh, right... because WoW has over 6 million subscribers, yet CCP does not. To scam is to deprive via deceit. This is obviously a case of deceit, as the individual gave up an item worth literally months to years of his playtime for absolutely nothing. Scams are illegal, and this individual should have his BPO reinstated. Again, i reiterate that it is CCP's fault for creating misleading game mechanics that allow for such behavior; it should never be tolerated. I am disappointed that a dev has neither acted nor commented on this horrible atrocity. Some of you may not agree with me regarding this issue, but I cannot stand it when weak cowards prey upon those who do not know any better. This cowardice shows a lack of character, as well as a lack of respect towards human beings. He should be banned. That is all. -Elmo I agree. Other games clamp down/ban scammers, in Eve it's called 'social engineering'?!? and is basically a profession of scamming alts. I suppose this is a weak tie in to the 'pvp' nature of the game, a form of pvp that is frankly one of the most degenerate and smack filled i've ever seen (has it always been like this in eve?), thanks to the massive amounts of time people invest in even getting to the point they can fire a missile at someone! There is another game that is very much like Eve Online in many respects, and that is runescape (only played by mostly children). Full of scammers, item-loss based and metagame-dominated PvP, and laggy gameplay, with a macro problem. Runescape also has a 'vast player run economy'. you've got to laugh, eh :)
William Hamilton	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:53:00 - [85] You give someone an auction with a low minimum bid and they have no resposibility to bid any higher than that.
Crydawner	Posted - 2007.03.09 07:56:00 - [86] Originally by: William Hamilton You give someone an auction with a low minimum bid and they have no resposibility to bid any higher than that. even if they agreed to take the B/O? ever heard of a verbal contract, keeping one's word, etc... seemingly not.
William Hamilton	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:00:00 - [87] Verbal contracts can be broken, so the point stands.
Crydawner	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:08:00 - [88] Originally by: William Hamilton Verbal contracts can be broken, so the point stands. how often do you break verbal contracts/your word? I don't in real life, and i don't online because i can 'get away with it'. So learn the meaning of the word responsibility. :)
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:11:00 - [89] Originally by: Crydawner Originally by: William Hamilton Verbal contracts can be broken, so the point stands. how often do you break verbal contracts/your word? I don't in real life, and i don't online because i can 'get away with it'. So learn the meaning of the word responsibility. :) If you think 'verbal contracts' mean anything in EvE, I have a zealot BPO you might want to buy for a measily 15 bil.
Aldee Federated Holdings	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:15:00 - [90] Personally I have never messed with auctions but if someone agreed to pay a set price for some thing I had I know item exchange works everywhere and that is all I would insist on using.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:16:00 - [91] Sorry for your loss, it surely is not nice to be scammed like this. However, it is not a misuse of the contract system nor an exploit. There are enough warnings and information of what you are doing when you create a contract. First: Why did you not start with a reasonable bid? Whenever I do an auction I set as starting price the minimum price I want to have. If people cannot afford the auction fee, then they cannot for sure afford the item itself. Set a good starting price. Second: Don't trust blindly everyone especially not people whom you do not know at all and don't do everything what they tell you to do. Use your own brain and think of possible tricks. Third: If someone is too lazy to travel down to the region where the t2 bpo is on contract, then to hell with them, they don't deserve to have the bpo. Fouth: Why private auctions at all? Make it public, always if you are selling to strangers. There is zero reason for private auctions to strangers except for scamming. Give them the link of the contract as soon as you create the contract and they can buyout that very moment. If they don't buyout but bid minimum bid only, then the open contract lets other people to do the buyout/bidding. Fifth: For fixed price use item exchange and not auction. Sixth: If you want to save money do station trades instead of contracts. But whatch out for the right amount of zeros... Double and triple check for any possible pitfalls if you do high expensive trades!
Nero Ya'ng Caldari YaFa Empires	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:19:00 - [92] mmh verbal contracts, in RL your not allowed to brake verbal contracts, atleast in switzerland. and yes its a shame, CCP does love Scammers and protect em. i dont demand scammers to be banned, but atleast give em some in game sanctions that realy hurts. propably in Iceland there is Anarchy, prolly all CCP Devs are punks :P
Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:30:00 - [93] However, it is not a misuse of the contract system nor an exploit. There are enough warnings and information of what you are doing when you create a contract. No warning what so ever when you set one to a corp only when you set it too a private person. Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.03.09 09:10:00 - [94] It's not classed as an exploit purely because CCP doesn't have the resources to do a he-said, she-said every time somebody agrees to a contract and then has second thoughts, or decides they want to get someone's account banned as an exploiter. It's also at least theoretically useful in the sense that it allows you to sell items to your corp (or an associated one) in auction format, which isn't usual but is at least a useful feature. But meh, people are stupid and nobody sat down to pay attention to the contract system in order to write a manual. That said, if you have an asset worth ten billion isk, you bloody well ought to know what you're doing when you try to sell it. I'm not saying that it's cool to jack people for huge isk, but c'mon. Or more to the point, your real problem was impatience - if you have the superwtfexpensive item, you call the shots, not the other guy.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:03:00 - [95] It is legal, unfortunately. Of course the same kind of attitude that thinks that this is fine is what is causing lots of other problems, including the things CCP is whining about themselves. If you create a 'free for all' environment, you shouldn't be surprised when people start targeting anyone, as we've seen in recent events with people 'hunting' GM/Dev characters. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:14:00 - [96] Originally by: Malachon Draco It is legal, unfortunately. Of course the same kind of attitude that thinks that this is fine is what is causing lots of other problems, including the things CCP is whining about themselves. If you create a 'free for all' environment, you shouldn't be surprised when people start targeting anyone, as we've seen in recent events with people 'hunting' GM/Dev characters. That's like saying that all pirates are bad people in RL. Scamming ingame is not the same as hurting innocent people in RL. It takes a pretty warped morality not to understand that.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: Malachon Draco It is legal, unfortunately. Of course the same kind of attitude that thinks that this is fine is what is causing lots of other problems, including the things CCP is whining about themselves. If you create a 'free for all' environment, you shouldn't be surprised when people start targeting anyone, as we've seen in recent events with people 'hunting' GM/Dev characters. That's like saying that all pirates are bad people in RL. Scamming ingame is not the same as hurting innocent people in RL. It takes a pretty warped morality not to understand that. No, that's not the point I was trying to make. All I'm saying that if you allow stuff like this in a computergame, people will do other borderline stuff in that same computergame as well, certainly if the makers of the game allow the first instance of borderline stuff. I didn't draw any parallels to stuff outside of the 'sphere of influence' of the game. But if the objective of the game or the best way to get ahead in a game is to be as underhanded as possible, then it shouldn't surprise anyone that people will take a 'anything goes' approach to all tactics employed with regards to the game (as long as they don't impact stuff unrelated to the game). -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:30:00 - [98] Well basically the victims claim the problem was in the lack of knowledge that it can't be canceled when someone bids on it. In other words, the system is not foolproof enough. So the simple solution is - create a warning window like the one newbies get when jumping into lowsec first time, which says that once someone bids on the auction, it can not be canceled. Though people will switch off warnings and avoid the message and get scammed anyway. So maybe also add this warning into the screen with summary contract information, which a player must read and accept before the contract is actually created.
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:34:00 - [99] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: Malachon Draco It is legal, unfortunately. Of course the same kind of attitude that thinks that this is fine is what is causing lots of other problems, including the things CCP is whining about themselves. If you create a 'free for all' environment, you shouldn't be surprised when people start targeting anyone, as we've seen in recent events with people 'hunting' GM/Dev characters. That's like saying that all pirates are bad people in RL. Scamming ingame is not the same as hurting innocent people in RL. It takes a pretty warped morality not to understand that. No, that's not the point I was trying to make. All I'm saying that if you allow stuff like this in a computergame, people will do other borderline stuff in that same computergame as well, certainly if the makers of the game allow the first instance of borderline stuff. I didn't draw any parallels to stuff outside of the 'sphere of influence' of the game. But if the objective of the game or the best way to get ahead in a game is to be as underhanded as possible, then it shouldn't surprise anyone that people will take a 'anything goes' approach to all tactics employed with regards to the game (as long as they don't impact stuff unrelated to the game). "You shouldn't be surprised she got raped, have you seen the dresses she wears?" "You shouldn't be surprised CCP employees get harrassed, have you seen the scams they allow in their game" That's what your saying, and it's disgusting.
Plasticine Perfection	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:43:00 - [100] Originally by: Eilene Fernite "You shouldn't be surprised she got raped, have you seen the dresses she wears?" "You shouldn't be surprised CCP employees get harrassed, have you seen the scams they allow in their game" That's what your saying, and it's disgusting. Woah easy tiger, that's a ridiculous analogy to make, and entirely out of order. I'd call that abusive to be honest. CCP condone and encourage griefing in EVE. There have been multiple dev/GM posts where they've clearly stated that conflict between players in all forms is what they see EVE as being about. On top of that there's the recent Scandal Which We Cannot Talk About, there's the repeated decisions to allow borderline exploits to continue until the mechanics behind them can be fixed and there's the in-built encouraging of scams. Large-scale frauds are talked up by CCP and used to generate news interest, mechanics are put in place that make the game for new players very dangerous and most people learn the hard way that EVE is not a safe place, anywhere. Given the environment and atmosphere that all of this encourages is it any surprise that those exact attitudes are propagated to the playerbase and that scamming is routine now? Search contrats in The Forge for any high-ticket item, e.g. faction battleships. The vast majority of the contracts for such items are scams. Scam contracts GREATLY outnumber real, genuine trades. Doesn't that tell you something about the nature of the players and the mechanics of the game? To go equating that with condoning *****is disgusting IMO and I think you should apologise to Malachion for that.

Nero Ya'ng Caldari YaFa Empires	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:45:00 - [101] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: Malachon Draco It is legal, unfortunately. Of course the same kind of attitude that thinks that this is fine is what is causing lots of other problems, including the things CCP is whining about themselves. If you create a 'free for all' environment, you shouldn't be surprised when people start targeting anyone, as we've seen in recent events with people 'hunting' GM/Dev characters. That's like saying that all pirates are bad people in RL. Scamming ingame is not the same as hurting innocent people in RL. It takes a pretty warped morality not to understand that. well i see Pirate as a normal way of playing (but hate when pirates think its the only way to play) but scamming is NOT a normal way of playing this game. its just lame. While geting your ship blowed up by pirates at a gatecamp is maybe no funn for the victim, but is a total "legal" way of playing the game. if they do it in secure system they get Concorded. so your protected. but when you enter unsecure systems , your warned about anarchy there, no one will help you. but here is the big difrennce i cant understand, its absolutly legal to scamm ppl and geting no sanctions, thats lame. sure out in 0.0 systems / stations i think its ok. cause its anarchy out there. but in secure systems this should get sancionted by the concord. i dont want em to get banned, but feel serius sanctions. for me its just unrealistic, Concord blow you up when shooting at a ship, but ur allowed to scamm billions out of someone without any troubles from concord. thats like cops in RL decide to give tickets for to fast driving, but dont mind ppl robber others. i guess i used some word that dont exist in english, but english is not my first lang. :) i hoope you understand it anyway :P
Plasticine Perfection	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:47:00 - [102] I'd just like to clarify that I, personally, have no problem with scamming being part of the game. Caveat emptor. However the problem here is that CCP have said that this function of contracts is unintended and they're going to change it. But they continue to allow it to happen in the meantime. That's inconsistent and a poor decision IMO.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:00:00 - [103] I would call it a "valid scam". He exploits stupidity, not an error in game mechanics. Simple as that -- This game is still in beta stage
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Plasticine Perfection Woah easy tiger, that's a ridiculous analogy to make, and entirely out of order. I'd call that abusive to be honest. Read what he's saying. He's saying we shouldn't be surprised that people are out to hurt CCP employees by outing them (thus getting their player characters deleted), because CCP allow people to scam, and in a broader sense, social engineer ingame. In other words, he's saying that CCP have only themselves to blame for recent events. Quote: Search contrats in The Forge for any high-ticket item, e.g. faction battleships. The vast majority of the contracts for such items are scams. Scam contracts GREATLY outnumber real, genuine trades. Doesn't that tell you something about the nature of the players and the mechanics of the game? It tells me a lot about the way people play the game. It tells me absolutely nothing about the way those people behave in real life.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:18:00 - [105] Edited by: Plutoinum on 09/03/2007 11:25:03 Originally by: Nero Ya'ng mmh verbal contracts, in RL your not allowed to brake verbal contracts, atleast in switzerland. and yes its a shame, CCP does love Scammers and protect em. i dont demand scammers to be banned, but atleast give em some in game sanctions that realy hurts. propably in Iceland there is Anarchy, prolly all CCP Devs are punks :P No, the EVE universe is neither Switzerland nor Iceland. That's your primary mistake. It's a game and has different rules. Anyway, I don't like that scam much, probably because I can't lie into someones face easily. And well, I wouldn't have fallen for this scam, because it makes just no sense to set up an auction with a low starting bid, if you have already negotiated a fixed price... and I know that private item exchange works over regions, I use it all the time with my alts. Besides that I agree, you need to be a forum prostitute to know about this scam. And to argue with the EULA: People get scammed out of virtual items that are not theirs anyway, because all virtual items and the game currency isk stay property of CCP. P.S.: I pity your loss. I'd 'puke', if someone scammed me for 12 bil. But I don't have that much anyway. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:21:00 - [106] Originally by: Nero Ya'ng mmh verbal contracts, in RL your not allowed to brake verbal contracts, atleast in switzerland. and yes its a shame, CCP does love Scammers and protect em. i dont demand scammers to be banned, but atleast give em some in game sanctions that realy hurts. propably in Iceland there is Anarchy, prolly all CCP Devs are punks :P I must say that in most countries, verbal contract means nothing... where ai live Internet transactions or terms means nothing. Only your signature in paper is valid. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:23:00 - [107] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Its not an exploit because CCP doesn't care too much about customers. Seems you unfortunately lost a lot of money. No, no no no, it's exactly THAT they care for their customers, to provide a game of consequences. The responsibility here falls on the person who falls for the scam, there is nothing that forces him to do this game. Don't blame CCP for human stupidity. La famiglia, l'anima, la causa.
Kareltje	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:25:00 - [108] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I must say that in most countries, verbal contract means nothing... where ai live Internet transactions or terms means nothing. Only your signature in paper is valid. Actually, verbal contracts are just as binding as written contracts (in most countries that I know of). The problem lies in having proof that a contract exists. You need a trustworthy witness for that, or a recording that can be proven not to have been tampered with.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:30:00 - [109] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: Plasticine Perfection Woah easy tiger, that's a ridiculous analogy to make, and entirely out of order. I'd call that abusive to be honest. Read what he's saying. He's saying we shouldn't be surprised that people are out to hurt CCP employees by outing them (thus getting their player characters deleted), because CCP allow people to scam, and in a broader sense, social engineer ingame. In other words, he's saying that CCP have only themselves to blame for recent events. Quote: Search contrats in The Forge for any high-ticket item, e.g. faction battleships. The vast majority of the contracts for such items are scams. Scam contracts GREATLY outnumber real, genuine trades. Doesn't that tell you something about the nature of the players and the mechanics of the game? It tells me a lot about the way people play the game. It tells me absolutely nothing about the way those people behave in real life. You are correct, that is exactly what I am saying. Perhaps I am a bit more cynical about human nature than you. Let me put it like this. If we compare EVE to other MMOs in terms of a sporting analogy, I would see as freefighting/cagefighting or whatever you call it, while most other MMOs are more like chess. From that analogy, I would be much less surprised to hear that a referee in a freefight got his nose broken by a contestant than I would be to hear that a chessplayer broke the nose of the referee at his chessmatch. CCP chose to develop a game that caters to a specific group of people, indeed, for all intents and purposes, it actively sought out that kind of players. Well, then my point is that CCP should not be surprised if those people not all behave like choirboys. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:36:00 - [110] Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP chose to develop a game that caters to a specific group of people, indeed, for all intents and purposes, it actively sought out that kind of players. Well, then my point is that CCP should not be surprised if those people not all behave like choirboys. Well, it's not all. It gives people the choice to play that way. Others like different parts of the game and some people just feel an achievement and satisfaction, if they can make it in such a remorseless universe, although they don't play bad characters themselves. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:39:00 - [111] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I must say that in most countries, verbal contract means nothing... I doubt that. In most countries verbal contracts are contracts like every other contracts also and they are valid and binding. The problem with verbal contracts is that it is not easy to prove that such a contract exists, not to mention the exact content of it. But if you have several neutral witnesses around and you agree to a (verbal) contract and break it later on then you are in trouble (unless you have a good lawyer). I think the Eve contract system is not that bad and with a bit of common sense it is more or less scam proof. I mean... why would anyone pay to a total stranger in an auction that is only open for him 10b instead of 10k? This has nothing to do with weird game mechanics and spooky stuff which only few selected frieds of the devs would know. You only need to think what is going on ... and that is not too much demanded for 10 bil.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:42:00 - [112] Edited by: DarkMatter on 09/03/2007 11:46:15 Sometimes CCP's stupidity amazes me... How they can consider a broken game mechanic a valid in-game scam is beyond me... This loophole almost defines EXPLOIT in itself, lol... Idiots... Why don't they code in some realistic ways to steal & scam, and not leave it up to their own ignorance in codeing to have rediculous loopholes that they can leave in the game and pull the scam card on us? Pretty ***** sloppy CCP... If being a con artist in-game is a valid playstyle, just like anything else it should requires skills, risk vs. reward, NOT BROKEN GAME MECHANIC'S! To think that non-forum readers have to first be scammed to find out about this expoilt is NOT the way to deal with poor game mechanics CCP, get a ***** clue on how to deal with your customers! Building the homestead
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:01:00 - [113] Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP chose to develop a game that caters to a specific group of people, indeed, for all intents and purposes, it actively sought out that kind of players. Well, then my point is that CCP should not be surprised if those people not all behave like choirboys. Have you ever hear of Jack Thompson? If you haven't, you should check him out. You'll like him.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Lord MooMoo Dumbass. Did you not see the "item exchange" option? (Yes, you can claim these from anywhere.) Of course, despite not playing for three months I had a full and complete knowledge of every nuance of the contract system, which is quite clearly intuitive and faultless by design. How could I have been so very, very stupid. Naughty me. Well at least we're all in agreement now. You made a 12Bn ISK deal without spending a few minutes thinking or checking. IN REAL LIFE people who do things like this get exploited. But it's not an explout in the EVE sense - even if you didn't know about Item Exchange, what did you think the words MINIMUM BID MEANT...?
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:11:00 - [115] It is NOT tastefull to scam people using a relative new and in most situations quite complicated system of trade - But it sure IS valid hehe I can't believe how many people with expensive BPO's fall for this - I would have though newer players to fall for it though they don't have much of value ofcourse... Pinky
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:32:00 - [116] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP chose to develop a game that caters to a specific group of people, indeed, for all intents and purposes, it actively sought out that kind of players. Well, then my point is that CCP should not be surprised if those people not all behave like choirboys. Have you ever hear of Jack Thompson? If you haven't, you should check him out. You'll like him. Yes I know him, but the parallel you're trying to draw here is completely absurd. I am not claiming CCP is making peoplde do X or Y, or that Eve is bad and has reallife consequences with boys shooting up highschools or anything. All I am saying is this. 1. Eve draws a certain kind of player 2. Eve encourages a certain kind of behaviour ingame. Both 1. and 2. are CONSCIOUS CHOICES by CCP. Fine. CCP makes the game, CCP makes the rules, CCP decides what kinds of people it wants to attract. All good so far. However, the next logical consequence of the choices CCP makes is that the people playing the game will behave in a certain way. And the hunting of CCP employees is, in my opinion, nothing more than a logical consequence of the kind of game CCP has made. Jack Thompson makes the claim basically that games turn good people into bad people and should be banned for corrupting the children. In doing so Mr Thompson makes assumptions based on very thin/non-existent evidence of a correlation between ingame actions and out of game actions. All I am saying that if you make a game that caters to 'bad people', don't be surprised that 'bad people' will actually play the game, and that they will do 'bad things' within the game. I make no assumptions about the effect Eve has on the psyche of people playing it, nor do I make assumptions about people's behaviour in terms of things unrelated to the game. If you want to debate me, you could focus on whether or not 'outing Devs' is related or unrelated to the game. I hold the opinion that it is indeed rather closely related, but I recognize people might not share that viewpoint. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
The Slayer Caldari The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:37:00 - [117] Originally by: Plasticine Perfection However the problem here is that CCP have said that this function of contracts is unintended and they're going to change it. But they continue to allow it to happen in the meantime. That's inconsistent and a poor decision IMO. Precisely. CCP are basically saying "This is wrong, not how its sposed to be at ALL. We WILL be fixing it. However until then help yourself!"
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:43:00 - [118] Originally by: The Slayer Originally by: Plasticine Perfection However the problem here is that CCP have said that this function of contracts is unintended and they're going to change it. But they continue to allow it to happen in the meantime. That's inconsistent and a poor decision IMO. Precisely. CCP are basically saying "This is wrong, not how its sposed to be at ALL. We WILL be fixing it. However until then help yourself!" Another reason CCP has to get their heads out of their collective you know what... They have the habit of allowing exploits to linger, and not banning the offenders while they fix the problem they say was not intended... This is crap... Building the homestead
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:58:00 - [119] Originally by: Malachon Draco All I am saying that if you make a game that caters to 'bad people', don't be surprised that 'bad people' will actually play the game, and that they will do 'bad things' within the game. I make no assumptions about the effect Eve has on the psyche of people playing it, nor do I make assumptions about people's behaviour in terms of things unrelated to the game. Rather than rip your entire post to pieces, I'll just say that I'm sorry for you. If you honestly think that people are drawn to EvE because they are 'bad people', you're insulting the entire player base, the dev team, and just about anyone else that has something to do with this game. Thanks for playing.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:24:00 - [120] It blows my mind that people are blaming this on CCP. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, having a warning that people can actually bid on an auction and it's not considered an exploit to do so (!!!), and that you can't suddenly retract an active contract (those crazy Icelanders), they may as well put up a warning every time you undock saying 'People can warp scramble you, and it's not an exploit that you are unable to warp away'. And yes, it is odd that CCP say it is not an exploit and yet are fixing it anyway, I mean, we all know that there is nothing wrong with the game other than the complete and total exploits like logoffskis. Everything in the game, nay, in the whole world, is just that black and white. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:41:00 - [121] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: Malachon Draco All I am saying that if you make a game that caters to 'bad people', don't be surprised that 'bad people' will actually play the game, and that they will do 'bad things' within the game. I make no assumptions about the effect Eve has on the psyche of people playing it, nor do I make assumptions about people's behaviour in terms of things unrelated to the game. Rather than rip your entire post to pieces, I'll just say that I'm sorry for you. If you honestly think that people are drawn to EvE because they are 'bad people', you're insulting the entire player base, the dev team, and just about anyone else that has something to do with this game. Thanks for playing. Lol, you're funny. I put 'Bad people' in parenthesis for a reason. Do I really need to spill everything out before you understand it? Sheesh. Very well then. First of all, by saying Eve draws 'bad people', that is not the same as saying all people playing Eve are 'bad'. Big difference. Note I am playing the game myself, why would I want to call myself 'bad'. Secondly, I referred to them as 'bad people' not as bad people. The concept of using parenthesis might be foreign to you, so allow me to explain. By putting '' around a word or phrase, it means generally that that word or phrase is either meant in irony/jest or at the very least should not be taken litterally. I used the phrase 'bad people' to denote that in EVE players are allowed to conduct themselves in a manner that in most other MMOs would be considered bad. The parenthesis are meant to indicate an extent of relativity to the word bad, since we are talking about a computer game here. Nevertheless, the unique (and I mean that in a positive way) atmosphere and gameplay of EVE does mean IMO that at least some of the players drawn to EVE will be those who have a desire to, how shall I put it....make full use of the liberty granted to them in the game. Now the questions that brings up are: what is 'full use', and what is 'in the game'. Well, the players specifically attracted to this part of Eve gameplay (I called them 'bad people' before, but a more politically correct term might be 'free thinkers' if you prefer) could perhaps be expected to have a less 'traditional' view of what 'full use' and 'in the game' mean. So just to clarify my point, all I am pointing out is that these 'free thinkers' might consider 'full use' to be a bit more than most of us, and might also consider 'in the game' a bit wider than we, or CCP consider to be 'in the game'. Does this answer your questions or will you continue to hide the frustrations about your own ignorance by flaming without understanding the discussion? -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:07:00 - [122] Originally by: Malachon Draco stuff You should become a politician. I'll leave it at that, in an attempt not to further derail this thread. Feel free to open a new one if you want anymore replies from me on this subject.
DarkElf Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:46:00 - [123] OMG ppl still fall for this but yeah wasting GM's time ftl It isn't exploiting a game mechanic it is exploiting you lack of knowledge on how a game mechanic works. Big difference. DE
Khajit Smitty Minmatar MisFunk Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:55:00 - [124] Personally i would blame the developer behind the auction system, Yes YOU mr developer, you wrote lousy code and your peer who signed off on it can also be blamed, yes YOU mr Quality Assuarance, you let lousy code get into the system !! Totally dissapointing! On a more serious note to the OP, you where scammed, it happens, now i would suggest doing what CCP want us to do and that is bring the evil within us out to the surface, so go get a crossbow, some gasoline, matches and masking tape and go make some poor sods a life a total misery! After all if CCP can do it, why cant we ?
Jaggeh Gallente Furious Angels	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:51:00 - [125] Originally by: Khajit Smitty Personally i would blame the developer behind the auction system, Yes YOU mr developer, you wrote lousy code and your peer who signed off on it can also be blamed, yes YOU mr Quality Assuarance, you let lousy code get into the system !! Totally dissapointing! On a more serious note to the OP, you where scammed, it happens, now i would suggest doing what CCP want us to do and that is bring the evil within us out to the surface, so go get a crossbow, some gasoline, matches and masking tape and go make some poor sods a life a total misery! After all if CCP can do it, why cant we ? There is nothing wrong with the code, it works like it is supposed to. There is no cure for supidity. The contract system is fine, lots of people use it every day without being scammed. When making any large money/high value transaction anyone who doesnt do research into the transaction deserves what they get. Time to take the safety labels off things and let natural selection back into our lives. --------------------------------------- Furious Angels are recruiting Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:59:00 - [126] Originally by: Khajit Smitty Personally i would blame the developer behind the auction system, Yes YOU mr developer, you wrote lousy code and your peer who signed off on it can also be blamed, yes YOU mr Quality Assuarance, you let lousy code get into the system !! Totally dissapointing! On a more serious note to the OP, you where scammed, it happens, now i would suggest doing what CCP want us to do and that is bring the evil within us out to the surface, so go get a crossbow, some gasoline, matches and masking tape and go make some poor sods a life a total misery! After all if CCP can do it, why cant we ? Kindly get a clue. Blaming the coders of the auction system because the users are too stupid to get scammed by simple tricks is like blaming the programmers of linux because there's a command that allows you to format the hard drive. Believe me, the coder, Linus Torvalds received hatemail because someone was used to getting a "Do you really want to do this?" when they had input "mkfs /dev/hda1" themselves. This is the same level of utter mindboggling idiocy. Genepool chorination is what I propose, but CCP is much more kind, they allow things to have consequences, so people actually may THINK the next time. La famiglia, l'anima, la causa.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:24:00 - [127] Originally by: Kareltje Originally by: Kagura Nikon I must say that in most countries, verbal contract means nothing... where ai live Internet transactions or terms means nothing. Only your signature in paper is valid. Actually, verbal contracts are just as binding as written contracts (in most countries that I know of). The problem lies in having proof that a contract exists. You need a trustworthy witness for that, or a recording that can be proven not to have been tampered with. well I con only speak for the countries that I had made deals with resisdents. And on all those verbal contract had zero value in law unless made in front of a judge (and that is relly rare you must imagine) If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:04:00 - [128] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 09/03/2007 18:01:40 There are places where verbal contracts are legally as binding as written ones. There are places where they arent. This matters not, because this is eve, and not RL. Considering that we have criminal NATIONS that are able to field powerful fleets, steal [aircraft carriers] and openly deal in [illegal substances], murder people and drink their blood and abduct people for breeding programs to have even more blood to drink, and implant mind control devices into their citizens, id say its safe to assume that breaking verbal agreements and ripping of multi-billionaires (ever heard of someone scamming people out of their first destroyer?) is very low on the agenda of the good guys. As for the OP: kind of funny whining about exploits when you tried to exploit the system. As someone in this thread pointed out, you actually tried to circumvent a game mechanic (that happens to not exist, but that makes it even more funny).
Jas Dor Minmatar	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:16:00 - [129] Edited by: Jas Dor on 09/03/2007 18:18:01 I would think the only way you could win a petition on this would be that the scammer made a statement about CCP policy to scam you. On the other hand at 5bn isk (about $500 if you're selling GTC's) the loss is enough to qualify as grand theft in many places in the United States. . . One of these days CCPs policy on stuff like this is going to come back to haunt them... Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU!
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:29:00 - [130] Edited by: Johnny ReeRee on 09/03/2007 18:26:12 It's stupid design. The auction should be cancellable. It's silly to create complex systems with these sorts of problems. It's not cleverness on anyone's part -- it's just stupid design by CCP. Whoever designed the contract system is an idiot. But CCP likes its bad-boy image and encourages all this meta-gaming crap. It's kind of a neat karma-thing therefore, that this hacker thing is coming back to bite them on the butt. If you encourage scamming and dirty tricks, then eventually they get played on you. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

DarkElf Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:36:00 - [131] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Edited by: Johnny ReeRee on 09/03/2007 18:26:12 It's stupid design. The auction should be cancellable. It's silly to create complex systems with these sorts of problems. It's not cleverness on anyone's part -- it's just stupid design by CCP. Whoever designed the contract system is an idiot. But CCP likes its bad-boy image and encourages all this meta-gaming crap. It's kind of a neat karma-thing therefore, that this hacker thing is coming back to bite them on the butt. If you encourage scamming and dirty tricks, then eventually they get played on you. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. it would also be retarded if someone could set up an auction. u spend days watching it and bidding on it and then they cancel it with 1 day to go. an auction is an auction and should not be able to be cancelled after bids are on. The system works fine if u have a brain in ur head. if he had of thought about the possiblity of it being a scam for 5 minutes then he would have realised that he was open to scamming by doing it. he wasn't thinking clearly for 1 reason or another and left himself open to scamming. if you want to play a game without risks like this where you can happily skip along not thinking about losing anything in game then i'm sure ppl here can make a nice suggestion for you. DE
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:34:00 - [132] I don't mind scams. I think they are great, for the most part. IPO's - people trust others with their money based on nothing more than a promise... ho ho ho Corp Thefts - largely preventable through good management, a great part of the gameplay... requires lots of work to pull off well, generally, or a stupid corp Spies - again, part of the gameplay, I love it! I like it when people roleplay 'evil', its great for the game and I would never wish for EVE to be different in that respect. But THIS, this is not gameplay... its exploiting technical knowledge of the nuances of the contract UI. Exploiting someone's lack of knowledge of one particular aspect of a complex user interface, and using it in a way it was clearly not intended should be an exploit, plain and simple. Not knowing you cannot cancel an auction, when you can cancel virtually all other forms of active contract, and when there is NO warning whatsoever that you cannot cancel them, is NOT stupidity. Its a very fair assumption to make. Meta gaming ftl.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:39:00 - [133] Originally by: Plasticine Perfection [ Sorry for your loss Butter Dog, and I hope that some of the scum in this thread who are gloating over it and rubbing your nose it in suffer similar losses in the near future. please show me no sympathy, for it was not my money being lost others have paid the price for my 'lack of UI knowledge' or whatever you want to call it!
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:42:00 - [134] eh... no... cancelling auctions with some bid on it? THAT would be borked. there was absolutely no reason not to choose the most logical way and set up a private item exchange. you were handling 12bil ffs... knowing what you're doing is a requirement in that dimension.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:42:00 - [135] Originally by: Eilene Fernite The OP was selling a 10bil bpo on someone elses behalf. Who is to say he realy got scammed? He might as well have made up this story to scam the original owners of the bpo out of their money. The guy is a known scammer (I now know!), and has come on the thread admitting it - see page 2.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:48:00 - [136] Originally by: Roemy Schneider eh... no... cancelling auctions with some bid on it? THAT would be borked. there was absolutely no reason not to choose the most logical way and set up a private item exchange. you were handling 12bil ffs... knowing what you're doing is a requirement in that dimension. So asking for some text, somewhere, or a pop-up box explaining that auctions cannot be cancelled once bid against is simply too much to ask? Forum whoring should not be a requirement of preventing yourself falling foul to sloppy game mechanics.
Helganstandt BloodBath 'N Beyond	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:54:00 - [137] You know, despite how I think you should have known better, I'm going to have to agree that something should be changed. They originally let you put a private auction to 1 person, and now it doesn't let you. Therefor, it makes sense that CCP does want it to be fairly safe against scamming, and that scamming should require effort of social engineering, not knowledge of exploitable game mechanics. The easiest way for this to happen is a warning box. The next step is allowing a reserve. We have reserves in the forum auctions, I imagine it can't be too hard to implement into the current auction system. In this case, he could have put a reserve for 10 bn, and then when it didn't show up, it could have been canceled. I only really don't like this because this scammer didn't even really have to work to get a multi-billion BPO (kind of like the lottery...heh)
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:05:00 - [138] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Harald Hauler same thing happend to me with the very same guy. however i lost way less money. i searched for long time and found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. i even open one and closed it immediatelly without any bids. so i thought i could close it later as well. i was wrong. after that scam i searched again and again and still found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. Mr Manufacture is absolutly right IMHO. if there is no hint for things one cannot be considered to know, it's an exploit. No, because this is not an Eve thing. Auctions cannot be retracted once there is a bid. It's entirely an "Eve thing", beaause auctions by definition cannot be limited to a single bidder, else they're not called "auctions". If CCP adds the ability to limit an auction to one person, they can just as easily add a Cancel button.
Cygore Amarr Death Cult Armageddon	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:06:00 - [139] i just lost a Navy Megathron this way, i never use contracts so didn't really think it would happen, petitioning just gets the same bull** "it's part of the game mechanics" reply. Escrow was a much safer system, just another thing that's been totally **** up. So i'll probably be quitting once my subscription runs out this month (no ya can't have my stuff >.>)
DarkElf Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:11:00 - [140] Originally by: Cygore i just lost a Navy Megathron this way, i never use contracts so didn't really think it would happen, petitioning just gets the same bull** "it's part of the game mechanics" reply. Escrow was a much safer system, just another thing that's been totally **** up. So i'll probably be quitting once my subscription runs out this month (no ya can't have my stuff >.>) please? DE

Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:14:00 - [141] no! no need for yet another warning box. i had a contract set up in 0.0 recently and had to float post-warp just to click myself through all those warnings i totally forgot about "meeeh do you really want to?" "meeeh it might not accessible" all that stuff. it's an auction! cancelling after a bid is plain wrong and would be like the evolution of a (hidden) reserve, which keeps me from biddig on the forums already. there's too many auctions these days and they made half of the regular escrow shoppers leave the contract system - driving off more customers with such lame tools of greed and we can expect the next post about how to get rid of public contract fees because nobody buys anything. so again - the auction was totally illogical and you messed up. bad for the loss, but hey, appearantly you got the BPO by luck aswell so you're simply back where you started
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:15:00 - [142] It's not an exploit! You are a moron! YOU chose to set the minimum bid at the default. No one used a game mechanic exploit to force you to do it, or to change the auction after you set it. If someone said: "send me 1 million isk and i will give you 2 million isk back," would that be an exploit? No. I'm scared to think how much money Crazy Bear has made from you frakking morons because he's notorious at this. ----------------------------------------------------
Helganstandt BloodBath 'N Beyond	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:24:00 - [143] ^^^^Haha, I totally forgot you can put a starting bid. Alright, in that case, this is DEFINITELY not an exploit, that's just plain not thinking. I still think a reserve option would be nice, so long as there's none of that "hidden" bull****.
Entreri Finwe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2007.03.09 21:36:00 - [144] I have yet to hear a vaild reasoning that this is an exploit... You set a auction that one person could bid on, that person did bid on it...where's the exploit? ---
Sable Lowell Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.09 22:20:00 - [145] Edited by: Sable Lowell on 09/03/2007 22:24:02 Comparing in-game auctions to real life auctions (as a lot of people were doing), the reason why you can stop a RL auction is if the item up for sale is no longer available. This can include a variety of reasons. It could have been stolen, broken, lost, described wrong, person in jail, etc. Otherwise, an auction is a binding contract, and if you break it, then you are violating the law. With eve, there is a system in place that makes it so the item cannot be described incorrectly, and makes it so the item is available. Since there is no risk of the item being lost, stolen, etc, there is no reason to have a cancel button. Also, nothing in the game says that you can cancel a private auction. Again, using common sense, you should assume that you would not be able to cancel an auction, since the principle of an auction is to start it out at the minimum you would sell it for, but hope to get more money. By setting up the auction the way you did, you consented to selling it for so cheap. Now, if you shoot a missile in the game, would you expect to be able to recover the missile after it was blown up? Of course not, it's common sense. But using the logic that since something that is common knowledge is not fully detailed and explained, I should be able to be reimbursed for all the ammo I lost. Now, this not meant towards you, since the scammer said something different, but the reason why most of these people fall for this scam is because they're greedy. They don't want to pay extra fee's, so they list it lower, and lose. Now, shouldn't those people that say they have been scammed be banned because they were trying to exploit a loophole in the system? Of course not, but using the same logic most of you are, they should. And as for the people saying "Well, CCP said it's not an exploit, but they are going to fix it anyways, so it must be an exploit." The current system is working as it was intended. It is not an exploit, but CCP is fixing it because there are too many stupid people in the game. They're not fixing an exploit, they're fixing stupidity. And for those who do get scammed, and whine about their own stupidity, I recommend you buy the "easy" button from staples. (Hey, if they're too dumb to have common sense, then they're probably dumb enough to believe that the "easy" button actually works)
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.03.09 22:20:00 - [146] Originally by: Helganstandt ^^^^Haha, I totally forgot you can put a starting bid. Alright, in that case, this is DEFINITELY not an exploit, that's just plain not thinking. I still think a reserve option would be nice, so long as there's none of that "hidden" bull****. Think of the minimum bid as the reserve. Makes more sense then a minimum bid below reserve anyway.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:15:00 - [147] Originally by: Helganstandt I only really don't like this because this scammer didn't even really have to work to get a multi-billion BPO (kind of like the lottery...heh) well, exactly what I havent told you is how I got the BPO in the first place, and it was via the lottery so I can't really bring myself to care too much re: the 'scam'... that said the contract UI is terribly designed, it makes no mention of a 'reserve' nor warning that you cannot cancel those two simple changes would have prevented a lot of completely unintended 'errors'
Drachma Golea Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:25:00 - [148] Problem is solved rather easy but also expensive, take another alt or your banker and let him place the bid of 10 bln if you have the cash...
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:31:00 - [149] Originally by: Gone'Postal That has the CCP seal of non-exploit. Along with ctrl+q, shooting through pos shields, and many other fun and exciting things that the Eve-beta has brought to us. I personally love it, when the full game comes out i think i'll keep playing!
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2007.03.10 20:45:00 - [150] Originally by: Drachma Golea Problem is solved rather easy but also expensive, take another alt or your banker and let him place the bid of 10 bln if you have the cash... the auction was locked to one corporation I did ask a GM to change it to a public auction so I could bid against it, and they declined.

Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.10 22:18:00 - [151] It's not an exploit, it's just stupid design. Contracts suck. They're confusing, limited, and leave most users unclear about what's happening when -- which is the essence of bad design. People making bad decisions when it's clear what's happening is one thing -- this is something else. I'm sure it's working more or less as intended, but the user-interface design blows chunks. It's just bad software design.
Halkin Locus Solus	Posted - 2007.03.10 22:38:00 - [152] feck, i agree its lame but thats a lot of isk
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.10 22:46:00 - [153] Originally by: Angellyne Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Harald Hauler same thing happend to me with the very same guy. however i lost way less money. i searched for long time and found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. i even open one and closed it immediatelly without any bids. so i thought i could close it later as well. i was wrong. after that scam i searched again and again and still found no hint that you cannot close an auction with a bid on it. Mr Manufacture is absolutly right IMHO. if there is no hint for things one cannot be considered to know, it's an exploit. No, because this is not an Eve thing. Auctions cannot be retracted once there is a bid. It's entirely an "Eve thing", beaause auctions by definition cannot be limited to a single bidder, else they're not called "auctions". If CCP adds the ability to limit an auction to one person, they can just as easily add a Cancel button. You can't create an auction for one person. You can however set it for a corp which may very well just be a 1-man corp. That's not a quirk of the game. That's a quirk of the moron playing the game. Not being able to cancel is not an Eve-specific limit. You are right that an auction to one person is non-sensical. If only the average noobtard would realise this, this scam would not work. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Kumu Honua	Posted - 2007.03.10 23:15:00 - [154] Like Dennis Leary said about warnings (On cigarettes.) You could make them come in a black package with a skull and crossbones, and call them TUMORS, and people will line up around the block to get them. Warnings are useless. Hardly anyone reads them, and even less pay attention to what they actually say. Auctions are fine. They have a use. Personal auctions are just silly, but I can see some silly limited use for those as well. The moral of the story is: Use nothing but item exchange contracts and public auctions while treating each and every other form of contract as a scam and your life will be easy and scam limited.
Jak Silverheart	Posted - 2007.03.11 02:03:00 - [155] I have to say this. Dude that Scammer just ninja'ed that Carebare's wallet!! (smilly faces to get people attention, sorry)
Luc Guerrier Aliastra	Posted - 2007.03.11 04:12:00 - [156] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Roemy Schneider stuff So asking for some text, somewhere, or a pop-up box explaining that auctions cannot be cancelled once bid against is simply too much to ask? Forum whoring should not be a requirement of preventing yourself falling foul to sloppy game mechanics. Eve minimal system requirements: OS: Windows« System 2000 SP2 /XP CPU: Intel Pentium« III 800 MHz or AMD Athlon 800 MHz RAM: 512 MB or more HD space: 6.0 GB Network: 56k modem or better Internet connection Video: 32 MB 3D graphics card with Hardware Transform and Lighting, such as NVIDIA« GeForceÖ 2 class card or above Drivers: DirectX« 9.0c (included) and latest video drivers IQ: above 30 Common sense: just a little bit Naivete: a little less than average
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.11 04:27:00 - [157] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee It's not an exploit, it's just stupid design. Contracts suck. They're confusing, limited, and leave most users unclear about what's happening when -- which is the essence of bad design. People making bad decisions when it's clear what's happening is one thing -- this is something else. I'm sure it's working more or less as intended, but the user-interface design blows chunks. It's just bad software design. OMG SOMEONE CAN BID ON MY AUCTION AT LOWER THAN BUYOUT WTF DIDN'T SAY THIS IN THE MANUAL OMG STUPID DESIGN - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Sal Alo Minmatar Bounty Hunters Corporate of Eve	Posted - 2007.03.11 05:52:00 - [158] Creating an auction just for one person with minimum x and maximum y makes should be considered one interface bug because it makes absolutely no sense and it should not be allowed! Whoever is afraid of death dies every day. Whoever isn't, dies only once.
Frances Ducoir Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2007.03.11 07:54:00 - [159] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 11/03/2007 07:52:39 i simply can not believe the op said HE DOESNT KNOW the contract system and sets up a contract for 10 bn nevertheless. how stupid can people be? second stupidity: its an AUCTION... everybody with half the brainsize of a walnut would know that auctions could not be canceled if there is a bid on them. its your fault. its not an exploit or design error. there should be no warning about it because its so clear how it works. get over it. why the hell do you asume auctions should be cancelable? if they were cancelable setting up an auction would make absolutly no sense because the seller could easily cancel the auction if the bid is not going high enough at the end of the auction. if you loose a 10 bn bpo this way you just did not deserve it. and if you would have read the forums you would have known that it is a scam. so dont come and whine on the forums afterwards.
Wankaz	Posted - 2007.03.11 09:01:00 - [160] has ccp said they will fix this? someone earlier in this thread something about ccp stating that this was not intended, but its now a feature? ccp spending too much time down south atm?

Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.11 10:47:00 - [161] Originally by: Sal Alo Creating an auction just for one person with minimum x and maximum y makes should be considered one interface bug because it makes absolutely no sense and it should not be allowed! Good that it isn't possible then. You get an error message when you try that. However, you can limit them on a corporation. In theory the game could check if that corp has only 1 member, but that wouldn't solve anything - scammer will then simply add an alt or two to that corp.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.03.11 12:21:00 - [162] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 11/03/2007 12:21:52 According to recent devblogs, it will no longer be possible to restrict auctions to corporations outside of your alliance. I think CCP is just fed up from all those petitions by ignorant, braindead carebears who wanted to cheat (avoiding taxes that are 'supposed' to be there -> cheat / avoiding regional limits that are 'supposed' to be there -> cheat) and got scammed in return. If i convo you and tell you that when you "trash" an item, you suddenly get 2 of them, would you try it with your cerb BPO first? Why did anyone tried something very similar with the contract system then? Thats about as funny as the guy who got scammed with freeform contracts. After much whining, i posted the ingame warning you get when you try to accept a freeform contract. It mentioned that you should never ever accept a freeform when you dont trust the issuer, and that its a known and obvious way to scam. Like ingame, noone bothered to read my post and continued to flame the OP for being braindead / flame the scammer for being 'scum'. No matter how many warnings you put in, people who fall for the auction scam will manage to lose their 'hard-earned' wealth.
Pleasant Rat	Posted - 2007.03.11 20:34:00 - [163] jfc butterdog
Admiral Feelgood Even-Flow	Posted - 2007.03.11 21:03:00 - [164] Seriously what part of MINIMUM bid is so hard to understand. You tried to cheat on your taxes and got burned, get over it.
Kam SingDu'k Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.11 21:45:00 - [165] Edited by: Kam SingDu''k on 11/03/2007 21:42:04 Had the same guy try to scam me the other month as well. No offence mate but if I was selling a bpo for 10bill I would have at least taken the liberty to do a background check on the guy. Thanks to Chribba, I did on eve-search and he was mentioned as a scammer numberous amount of times. This save me from loosing a 100mill isk mod. Also, afaik, you can claim item exchanges from anywhere in the galaxy (correct?). Trust yourself, and not someone over the other side of the computer. This is the fundamental lesson in eve that everyone must learn. I guess for you it was a hugely expensive lesson. Put it into rl perspective. You auction out a nice antique with a buyout of $10,000, but only sell to one 'family', without a reserve and a starting bid of $1 or whatever it was, you think the family would rather pay the 10k or the 1$? I agree that what crazy dog is doing is scamming but this is a whole part of eve that keeps people on their toes. He is probably funding his main from this type of scamming (and for 10bill a scam is a very ludacris was of making money). Although I doubt I will ever enter scamming as to me it feels like cheating, you have to accept it as part of the diversity that is eve. NExt time just be smarter.
Squirrrel Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.11 23:11:00 - [166] Originally by: Mr Manufacture So asking for some text, somewhere, or a pop-up box explaining that auctions cannot be cancelled once bid against is simply too much to ask? Yeah. Same as asking you to actually engage your brain and think before making the contract. Originally by: Mr Manufacture Forum whoring should not be a requirement of preventing yourself falling foul to sloppy game mechanics. Sloppy gameplay is more like it. The "mechanics" are simple, even to many of those that haven't read all the knowledgebase information that is available. Most of the time the only reason people fall for this kind of thing is down to their own greed to get the isk blinding them to the way contracts work. I love irony. Some you win, some you lose. You - my friend - just lost.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.11 23:17:00 - [167] Someone tried to do this to me. How can you not see straight through it? If you setup an auction with no start bid hes just going to bid 1 isk. How exactly do you fall for this? Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
PauZotoh Zhaan	Posted - 2007.03.13 04:17:00 - [168] conctracs sucks ppl, too bad CCP is supporting scams like this


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