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Solecist Project
32263
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Posted - 2016.08.20 13:59:21 -
[301] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:It's the OTHER thread we're writing books back and forth LOL I'm such a moron sometimes! :D
edit: WRONG THREAD DAMMIT
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Typos. the curse of mobility.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
583
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Posted - 2016.08.20 14:26:27 -
[302] - Quote
Well it seems I'm late to the party - but I've never understood why miner fleets don't just toss a few logistics cruisers in their orca and put their logistics pilots in prop-mod-fit skiffs/procurers (so they can still get to the orca quickly if it happens to get bumped).
Then the fleet has logi, and the logi pilots still get to mine and earn isk as long as nobody is actively ganking the fleet...
I mean it isn't foolproof - but it would certainly help prevent at least the half-hearted ganks and make the gankers work significantly harder.
Just throwing it out there |
Solecist Project
32263
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Posted - 2016.08.20 14:38:39 -
[303] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Well it seems I'm late to the party - but I've never understood why miner fleets don't just toss a few logistics cruisers in their orca and put their logistics pilots in prop-mod-fit skiffs/procurers (so they can still get to the orca quickly if it happens to get bumped). Then the fleet has logi, and the logi pilots still get to mine and earn isk as long as nobody is actively ganking the fleet... I mean it isn't foolproof - but it would certainly help prevent at least the half-hearted ganks and make the gankers work significantly harder. Just throwing it out there I dare you to mine with me and not die to tell about the tale ...
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Typos. the curse of mobility.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2273
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Posted - 2016.08.20 15:06:23 -
[304] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Well it seems I'm late to the party - but I've never understood why miner fleets don't just toss a few logistics cruisers in their orca and put their logistics pilots in prop-mod-fit skiffs/procurers (so they can still get to the orca quickly if it happens to get bumped). Then the fleet has logi, and the logi pilots still get to mine and earn isk as long as nobody is actively ganking the fleet... I mean it isn't foolproof - but it would certainly help prevent at least the half-hearted ganks and make the gankers work significantly harder. Just throwing it out there I dare you to mine with me and not die to tell about the tale ...
You were using coveters...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy Caldari State
104
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Posted - 2016.08.20 17:35:38 -
[305] - Quote
For what I saw in a video they are basically improving covetor, nerfing procurer and keeping retriever the same...
and same thing for the exhumers versions.
Am I correct? |
Solecist Project
32266
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Posted - 2016.08.20 18:31:12 -
[306] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Well it seems I'm late to the party - but I've never understood why miner fleets don't just toss a few logistics cruisers in their orca and put their logistics pilots in prop-mod-fit skiffs/procurers (so they can still get to the orca quickly if it happens to get bumped). Then the fleet has logi, and the logi pilots still get to mine and earn isk as long as nobody is actively ganking the fleet... I mean it isn't foolproof - but it would certainly help prevent at least the half-hearted ganks and make the gankers work significantly harder. Just throwing it out there I dare you to mine with me and not die to tell about the tale ... You were using coveters... Why? I mean ... what? Yeah I have a few accounts that were close to t2 barges before they stopped.
What do you mean?
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Typos. the curse of mobility.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2273
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Posted - 2016.08.20 19:39:08 -
[307] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Well it seems I'm late to the party - but I've never understood why miner fleets don't just toss a few logistics cruisers in their orca and put their logistics pilots in prop-mod-fit skiffs/procurers (so they can still get to the orca quickly if it happens to get bumped). Then the fleet has logi, and the logi pilots still get to mine and earn isk as long as nobody is actively ganking the fleet... I mean it isn't foolproof - but it would certainly help prevent at least the half-hearted ganks and make the gankers work significantly harder. Just throwing it out there I dare you to mine with me and not die to tell about the tale ... You were using coveters... Why? I mean ... what? Yeah I have a few accounts that were close to t2 barges before they stopped. What do you mean?
Earlier in this thread you said you were using coveters, three of them, they are the most useless mining shps in the game with a tank that is not even up to the level of a wet paper bag, they blow up if you sneeze on them. If you use them the possibility of dying is very very high...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Solecist Project
32268
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Posted - 2016.08.20 20:32:39 -
[308] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Earlier in this thread you said you were using coveters, three of them, they are the most useless mining shps in the game with a tank that is not even up to the level of a wet paper bag, they blow up if you sneeze on them. If you use them the possibility of dying is very very high... True. Three accounts, all unsubbed btw.
Your idea of usefullness is flawed and your self image is seriously distorted. Have you tried thinking of another thought than just the first one that pops into your mind?
I bet there's a really smart guy behind the egomaniac you portrait on the forums.
And yeah the covetor isn't actually tanky ... ... but it doesn't need to be when you warp out within two seconds at first sign of danger.
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Typos. the curse of mobility.
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
89
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Posted - 2016.08.20 20:51:55 -
[309] - Quote
so, what are you "anti-skiff" people going to do when the high sec miners go back to mining in Battleships like it was years ago
you cant gank a Rokh or Apoc with 2 catalysts,
whats the difference between mining in a dominix and mining in a skiff?? slightly bigger cargo hold and slightly more yield, bit less on the firepower from drones on the skiff
according to Isk the guide pdf... the rokh and apoclypse mine almost as much as the skiff (if they use mining drones)... the dominix is a bit less, but cause its keeping its drones for defense (my version of ISK The guide Vol 1 Aegis 1.1)
Quote:In the table below, all relevant skills are maxed out for the sake of comparing the options available. Fleet bonuses are not applied in this table for simplicityGÇÖs sake, nor are MLUs applied for the same reason. To have a broader picture, the yield from the drones is included
Apoc - 2251 m3/3min Rokh - 2251 m3/3min (can fit a better tank then the proc or skiff as well ) Dominix w/o drones - 1688 m3/3min
vs
Procurer - 2340 m3 / 3min Skiff - 2610 m3/3min |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2273
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Posted - 2016.08.20 21:04:44 -
[310] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:so, what are you "anti-skiff" people going to do when the high sec miners go back to mining in Battleships like it was years ago you cant gank a Rokh or Apoc with 2 catalysts, whats the difference between mining in a dominix and mining in a skiff?? slightly bigger cargo hold and slightly more yield, bit less on the firepower from drones on the skiff according to Isk the guide pdf... the rokh and apoclypse mine almost as much as the skiff (if they use mining drones)... the dominix is a bit less, but cause its keeping its drones for defense (my version of ISK The guide Vol 1 Aegis 1.1) Quote:In the table below, all relevant skills are maxed out for the sake of comparing the options available. Fleet bonuses are not applied in this table for simplicityGÇÖs sake, nor are MLUs applied for the same reason. To have a broader picture, the yield from the drones is included
Apoc - 2251 m3/3min Rokh - 2251 m3/3min (can fit a better tank then the proc or skiff as well ) Dominix w/o drones - 1688 m3/3min
vs
Procurer - 2340 m3 / 3min Skiff - 2610 m3/3min
So Rokh for me then if they nerf the Skiff... Thanks for that, I will set one up and have a look at it, so if you do this CCP our mining Battleships will blot out the suns...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
90
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Posted - 2016.08.20 21:20:24 -
[311] - Quote
according to EFT, i just fit out a Rokh (all level 5 skills, which i have anyway)
has well over 80,000 ehp vs hybrid damage, and local reps (i put a large ancillary shield booster on it, thats more then sufficent)
it will mine 750 m3/min, and has a cargo of 3487 m3 (keeping drones for defense, not mining)
vs skiff which has similar tank, and does 1140 m3/min w/ 15k m3 cargo
at least with the rokh, i have option of lowering yield and adding guns to stomp something
Dominix - does not mine as much, tank is a bit weaker if you want more cargo space, but the drones are flat out brutal |
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
90
|
Posted - 2016.08.20 21:32:19 -
[312] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: So Rokh for me then if they nerf the Skiff... Thanks for that, I will set one up and have a look at it, so if you do this CCP our mining Battleships will blot out the suns...
actualy, that would be a rather funny sight to see...
and consider that could drop 1 or 2 mining lasers for guns as well (or remote reps), could slightly lower tank and toss in sensor booster in mid slot to improve lock on speed, but meh, not necessary realy, not in high sec, bring on the catalysts swarms and watch them die
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Solecist Project
32271
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Posted - 2016.08.20 21:41:48 -
[313] - Quote
This mining comparison by ships and modules might be of interest to you.
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Typos. the curse of mobility.
|
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
337
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Posted - 2016.08.20 21:42:58 -
[314] - Quote
Ganks are over very quickly. Even with remote reps, the barge they're trying to save would be half dead before most of the fleet knew who was getting popped.
They have to pop before CONCORD shows up or any reinforcements would have a much shorter CONCORD timer to contend with.
A signature :o
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2273
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Posted - 2016.08.20 21:46:58 -
[315] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:Dracvlad wrote: So Rokh for me then if they nerf the Skiff... Thanks for that, I will set one up and have a look at it, so if you do this CCP our mining Battleships will blot out the suns...
actualy, that would be a rather funny sight to see... and consider that could drop 1 or 2 mining lasers for guns as well (or remote reps), could slightly lower tank and toss in sensor booster in mid slot to improve lock on speed, but meh, not necessary realy, not in high sec, bring on the catalysts swarms and watch them die
Well if the dedicated mining ships are not fit for purprose then has to be the way to do it. I could even use a Marauder if I wanted to, that would really be funny with Bastion mode and active reps.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
91
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Posted - 2016.08.20 21:50:28 -
[316] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:Ganks are over very quickly. Even with remote reps, the barge they're trying to save would be half dead before most of the fleet knew who was getting popped.
They have to pop before CONCORD shows up or any reinforcements would have a much shorter CONCORD timer to contend with.
im talking about everyone mining in Rokhs or Dominix or other battleships... massive swarms of battleships at the roid belts day and night .. its why i said meh, dont need it . haveing a large ancillary shield booster is enough.... the gankers will have to star useing massive swarms of catalysts.... or ... bring in several hurricanes and tornados or what ever battlecruiser is flaver of the month for ganking |
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
91
|
Posted - 2016.08.20 22:00:29 -
[317] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Gunrunner1775 wrote:Dracvlad wrote: So Rokh for me then if they nerf the Skiff... Thanks for that, I will set one up and have a look at it, so if you do this CCP our mining Battleships will blot out the suns...
actualy, that would be a rather funny sight to see... and consider that could drop 1 or 2 mining lasers for guns as well (or remote reps), could slightly lower tank and toss in sensor booster in mid slot to improve lock on speed, but meh, not necessary realy, not in high sec, bring on the catalysts swarms and watch them die Well if the dedicated mining ships are not fit for purprose then has to be the way to do it. I could even use a Marauder if I wanted to, that would really be funny with Bastion mode and active reps.
would most likely have to use a Vargur marauder
shield tank, and 4 turret slots (not much mining yield there)... but the shield tank frees up low slots for more cargo room, and the local tank would make it all but immune to ganking (the fire power they would have to bring would be enourmous) |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17973
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 03:40:58 -
[318] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
We are talking about mining and not incursion runners, the pace is completely different. It is disingenuous to do so.
The average incursion marauder has around 80-90k EHP, the same as the skiff I have proposed. So yea, if their billion isk ships are able to protect themselves in fleets then so can miners.
Dracvlad wrote: Ganking makes up the majority of losses in hisec, with the tank you have proposed for the Skiff 80k to 90k you would make every mining ship vulnerable even if they fitted to max tank which is not giving miners the tools for the job. At the moment the Skiff is corretly set up and is the only choice for miners who do not want to be ganked, as long as that choice is left to me with the tank it has now I don't care what else CCP does. As long as they have a ship which people can chose which has a tank that deters the easy complacent gankers then I am fine. 90k does not do it, but the present Skiff does.
So the EHP of a marauder is not enough? Once again you show you have no understanding of balance. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2273
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 07:50:54 -
[319] - Quote
While baltec1's proposal is interesting for 0.0 mining and no one can argue against it for that as a concept, it is rather interesting, his suggestions would be an absolute disaster for hisec and the balance of the game there.
Most asteroid belts in hisec are very small and in my 0.6 system I often only have one and a half cycles of ore before the roid is gone, that in itself makes a fleet in asteroid belts a non-starter. Most miners in hisec are solo players who have one or two characters in space, you have people spread out in different systems because of the lack of minerals and the only real fleet mining of note is the race around ice belts. Of course there are exceptions and you will see some multi boxers clearing betlts at a insane speed.
For hisec the only thing that counts is how much tank you have before CONCORD arrive, nothing else matters, at the moment hisec players have balance in that they can chose ships for yield and or tank, when chosing for yield they have to get that ship out as soon as a threat comes in local, or get aligned and then warp out when people come onto D-scan. That is not really a simple thing as people make out because in some systems there are always gankers in system. So the balance is that you can at this point get into a shiop and fit it so that the gankers have to make a special effort to gank you, they have to bring friends, which I am told by the gankers is what Eve is all about. Sadly for them this is not the case, baltec1 has suggested 80k to 90k as the level which I can point out is directly within the range of solo players multi boxing.
He also wants to remove the ore bays as they are now and get back to the fitting choices for cargo, so that a solo miner who fits for tank is at an even greater disadvantage.
The balance for hisec is simply this you can chose ships for tank or yield and select ships that are cheap and easy to replce if ganked or if the risk is really great you tank a Skiff to the max which means they have to make a special effort, but you lose out on yield.
Currently when you look at hisec systems out of the way you see a good sample of different ships being used, I see Hulks, Mac's and Retreivers all the time, I also see a number of Procurers and the odd Skiff. What I don't see are coveters, well once I did and it was a Goon which made me laugh.... What does this say, well in my system it rarely gets visited by gankers, this means that people chose more yield based fits.
If you then compare this to Kino for example there are gankers in tat system all the time, therefore people who mine there use the Skiff. The gankers leave them alone because they are based in various systems and pick of yield and the lower level mining ships, they are not prepared to move additional resource into those systems and gank the Skiffs.
So as per normal the gankers because they are lazy and entitled are calling for a nerf to the base hp of the procurer and skiff.
In terms of game balance for hisec miners they have a choice based on yield and tank and convience which actually works for them, a major reversal from the complete abortion that they had before, which was a choice between a ship with the tank of a wet paper bag or another ship with the tank of a wet paper bag.
At this the balance is fine because people who want to be hard to kill are able to jump into a ship which they can setup to be hard to kill so that the gankers have to make a special effort, if CCP reduces the base amount then that choice is removed from hisec miners. If CCP does this then all they are doing is giving easy kills to gankers again and making it so miners are not able to get into a ship that requires a special effort and that is an issue for the game.
It is not my problem that the gankers cannot get enough people to gank a Skiff, it is their fault, their lack of effort, and if CCP makes it easy for them again then CCP will prove beyond all doubt that they are only interested in giving easy kills to the easy kill brigade. You need to think it through CCP. By all means increase the number of slots for the other ships, set up the Hulk and coveter as flexible fleet ships, but leave hisec with the option of the current Skiff which requires the gankers to up their game, if you do not you are letting hisec miners down yet again and will prove beyond all doubt that you are pandering to the gankers in your decisions.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
812
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 08:04:30 -
[320] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Ganking makes up the majority of losses in hisec, ...
Where's the data for that conclusion?
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2275
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Posted - 2016.08.21 10:03:06 -
[321] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Ganking makes up the majority of losses in hisec, ...
Where's the data for that conclusion?
Ganking makes up the majority of mining ship losses in hisec and is the key factor in assessing game balance for CCP.
Simple statement of truth!
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
179
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Posted - 2016.08.21 10:07:51 -
[322] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
We are talking about mining and not incursion runners, the pace is completely different. It is disingenuous to do so.
The average incursion marauder has around 80-90k EHP, the same as the skiff I have proposed. So yea, if their billion isk ships are able to protect themselves in fleets then so can miners. So the EHP of a marauder is not enough? Once again you show you have no understanding of balance. Hey it's news to me that Incursion runners sit for hours in one spot and that they are flying mostly alone. I really thought that a incursion fleet!!!! has some logis etc. to bump. And if I'm not totally wrong incursion runners make a little more Isk/hour then miners.
Sorry but you are comparing ships that do totally different thing in a totally different way. An Incursion fleet will make short work with some would be gankers.
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
92
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Posted - 2016.08.21 11:00:46 -
[323] - Quote
a quick look at kill boards and from past 72 hours, i see the following as of down time on 21 august
196 exhumers killed in pvp
32.7% = Hulk 37.7% = Mackinaw 29.6% = Skiff
i dont see any problems with these numbers |
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
92
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Posted - 2016.08.21 11:07:53 -
[324] - Quote
also in reguards to what baltec was saying about changeing the fittin
only 1 thing realy needs to be done
all the barges should have 2 High slot 4 Medium slot 3 Low slot
all the exhumers should have 2 high slot 5 medium slot 3 low slot
do not change any of the cpu pg or any of the other stats, just simple slot lay out, thats it ive run various spread sheets showing the numbers
this would allow all the ships to fit for tank (decent tank) OR yield, but they wont have the cpu/pg for both
they can fit shield hardeners / extenders / damage control for TANK ...... OR ..... they can fit mining laser upgrades for YIELD they would still retain their basic role concept.... hulk = master of yield / large scale fleet mining, makinaw = master of solo miner skiff = master of the dangerous space miner
edit: this is along with the changes to strip miners and other stuff they did on test that i have seen |
Viktor Amarr
83
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Posted - 2016.08.21 11:09:20 -
[325] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:a quick look at kill boards and from past 72 hours, i see the following as of down time on 21 august
196 exhumers killed in pvp
32.7% = Hulk 37.7% = Mackinaw 29.6% = Skiff
i dont see any problems with these numbers
The really important numbers are about ganks in high sec
55% Hulk 33% Mackinaw 11% Skiff (one moron had a 1.1 bil shield fit and got ganked by a bazillion catas)
If not for the idiot with the clown fit Skiff he'd never been ganked in the first place and skiff would have been 0%.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
819
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 11:16:38 -
[326] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Ganking makes up the majority of losses in hisec, ...
Where's the data for that conclusion? Ganking makes up the majority of mining ship losses in hisec and is the key factor in assessing game balance for CCP. Simple statement of truth! If it's mining ship losses, then that probably makes sense.
At least that's more restricted than the original statement, which if true, would be good to see the data.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
92
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 11:39:37 -
[327] - Quote
Viktor Amarr wrote:Gunrunner1775 wrote:a quick look at kill boards and from past 72 hours, i see the following as of down time on 21 august
196 exhumers killed in pvp
32.7% = Hulk 37.7% = Mackinaw 29.6% = Skiff
i dont see any problems with these numbers The really important numbers are about ganks in high sec 55% Hulk 33% Mackinaw 11% Skiff (one moron had a 1.1 bil shield fit and got ganked by a bazillion catas) If not for the idiot with the clown fit Skiff he'd never been ganked in the first place and skiff would have been 0%.
while a part of me would like to agree with you, as someone stated earlier, can not ballance the game off just high sec or just null sec.. have to look at all of it.... if the numbers are fairly ballanced across the board.. then i dont see a problem |
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
587
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 11:54:02 -
[328] - Quote
Viktor Amarr wrote:If not for the idiot with the clown fit Skiff he'd never been ganked in the first place and skiff would have been 0%. So just following along with your math...only 9 mining ships got ganked in high-sec *total* in the past 72 hours?
This seems unlikely... |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17978
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 12:00:36 -
[329] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
We are talking about mining and not incursion runners, the pace is completely different. It is disingenuous to do so.
The average incursion marauder has around 80-90k EHP, the same as the skiff I have proposed. So yea, if their billion isk ships are able to protect themselves in fleets then so can miners. So the EHP of a marauder is not enough? Once again you show you have no understanding of balance. Hey it's news to me that Incursion runners sit for hours in one spot and that they are flying mostly alone. I really thought that a incursion fleet!!!! has some logis etc. to bump. And if I'm not totally wrong incursion runners make a little more Isk/hour then miners. Sorry but you are comparing ships that do totally different thing in a totally different way. An Incursion fleet will make short work with some would be gankers.
And under my plan the mining fleet would logi too. |
Viktor Amarr
87
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 12:02:42 -
[330] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Viktor Amarr wrote:If not for the idiot with the clown fit Skiff he'd never been ganked in the first place and skiff would have been 0%. So just following along with your math...only 9 mining ships got ganked in high-sec *total* in the past 72 hours? This seems unlikely...
Eek, I did it for one day. As in calender day :P
Still, the percentages wouldn't be very different. |
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