Q: Then why don't you?
A1: Because they shoot back.
A2: Because they don't loiter in predictable locations: you have to probe them or tackle them quickly when they pass by.
A3: Because of gate/stationguns.
A4: Because of :reasons:

Which one is it?

Whether through fitting options or straight built into the hull, that tank is essential.

What I'm trying to say, is that the discussion around EHP tends to ignore the second half of the equation. A ship's combat worth = EHP x DPS. A ship with 80k EHP, 200 DPS is equivalent to a 40k, 400 DPS ship.

Comparing Zealots and battleships to barges is plain wrong. I get that they're supposed to be less combat-ready than a warship, but if DPS=150, then tank has to go up.

As I illustrated by saying that 8 catalysts will NOT gank a battleship, because the battleship will simply shoot them all before its tank caves in.

So you are saying all t2 cruisers and most battlecruisers have too little tank? Because all of them can be killed by the same number of catalysts. Add a few more cats and you are killing battleships and pvp t3 cruisers. Escalate more and you can wipe out a dreadnought.

What you want is for CCP to make you safe rather than have the tools to do it for yourself, thats not good game balance.

Actually my opinion is that the base EHP of Battleshsips are too low and I have felt that for some time.

The retriever was the real issue for me. It cant even handle basic rats. It has no slots for a tank and has no base HP so it dies if anything sneezes on it.

Thats because you are bad at this game.

Bulkheads in the lows and hull tank rigs boost it up quite a bit.

I don't think I'm too happy with the kinds of barges the way they are now. They could easily be made into one hull with fitting options- for example using a Procurer as a baseline model. On that I have to agree with Baltec. There is of course the issue that, as someone else pointed out, there are no useful midslot modules that affect mining, and an expanded cargohold does not expand the orehold. These are however technicalities that can be worked out.

Now, adding such fitting options would of course obsolete the current lineup. Why? Because there is in fact only one relevant bonus a mining ship can receive: a yield bonus. And also because all three of them are roughly equivalent to two cruisers (or half a battlecruiser) -- it's not like one of them is a nimble destroyer-like miner and the other's a battlecruiser-style command ship miner. All three of them happen to be in the heavy-cruiser-almost-BC ballpark.

I am happy with the distinction between ninja mining frigates and barges; but rather than having a three-of-the-same lineup, perhaps we should repurpose one to be an armed platform which also happens to mine (some). The latter could be achieved by giving it a massive bonus to mining drones, freeing up (unbonused?) highslots with turret / launcher hardpoints to slap anything you like on there. More like a generic SOCT cruiser with an orehold than anything else, really.

As for the third one, I have some ideas but they feel like I'm trying to "invent" something just because there are three.

I doubt however CCP is going to do something outrageous like adding some combat capability to transports or barges. The tears would flood the old continent. Already some are flipping a gasket when a ship that costs two cruisers has a heavy cruiser's tank with a frigate's DPS.

Yet there it is: roll the current lineup into 1 model, and give us a Combat miner please.

As I illustrated by saying that 8 catalysts will NOT gank a battleship, because the battleship will simply shoot them all before its tank caves in.

It already has the drone damage bonus, it already has the dronebay. I'm asking to add a few more slots, more CPU and powergrid and for it to tank like a HAC.

It will be the same ship for what you want it for only rather than have a huge base tank you have to fit one.

Batlec1, one issue I've not seen you address in your proposal is the problem that, if you give Barges and Exhumers more fitting options in return for lowered base stats, and *if* you allow (and I'm not sure you would) them to reach the same levels of tankiness the Procurer and Skiff do now through modules, these modules now become lootable. That would add to the profitability of suicide ganks and giving gankers even more incentive to go after vessels that through the very nature of their usage (having to sit still for hours on end) can never hope to enter fair combat against similarly-valued opponents.

Unless, of course, that is your hidden agenda: get the primary gank-proof barge and exhumer nerfed, and increase ganker payouts...

It's the same problem with faction mining modules: even if I were willing to risk several hundred million isk worth of modules to my exhumer, I would only be providing the next ganker a rich buffet in my wreck, attracting them like bears to honey. And thus those modules go entirely unused.

While I'm out and about faction mining modules: why are ORE Ice Harvesters longer-ranged versions of T2 Ice Harvesters, but ORE Stripminers only longer-ranged versions of T1 Stripminers?

Perhaps a silly question...will it still fit at least 1 strip miner or something?

I'll say this, interesting idea. However, not sure how many HS miners would want this. Seems that the dominant view expressed by the champions of HS mining is simply: more tank so we can be gank proof in all the ships.

You already have mining corps that 100% refuse to take the most simple precautions of even a single logistics cruiser to keep their ships alive through the half hearted ganks..... why in the heck do you think they'd want to give up those slots for anything but more mining yield?



A fully fit scythe is what? 40 mil? 20 mil if you make it cheap? a fraction of the cost of a Hulk.



You guys mention 'nobody wants to sit in a logi cruiser and hope for a gank,' but there are alot of roles in Eve that people don't want to do, that have to be done. Fueling towers and citadels. It's not fun. But it has to be done. Logi cruisers or other pre-emptive measures for a fleet of miners are the same sort of deal. Sure, it's not 'fun' per say, but it's part of the game, and needs done.

Idea is interesting for sure. The only thing needs to be worked on: workaround for logistics to be usable against attackers and not deal with suspect flag. Else this will only lead to death of the whole fleets.

Just to clarify:
- fleet is sitting on belt, working on roids, paying attention to surroundings
- suicider comes in, attacks one hulk
- logistics starts to work and all ships get suspect flag (suicider has LE with target)
- more ships warping to belt and killing all the logistics

- at the same time defenders (skiffs) are sitting still and doing nothing: they cannot join party because they will be CONCORDed

Are you willing to sit in a belt earning nothing for several hours with nothing to do? I know I'm not, I have limited time to play and spending it baby sitting miners rather than enjoying myself isn't good gameplay. At least this way the people mining can do the protecting at the same time.

Industrialists have to factor transport and install costs into their build costs.... miners should also be of the mindset that they have to factor basic defense into their op shares.

Problem with miners is that their ships have never promoted anything other than tank and yield. They have no options (the covetor has zero options other than yield and prey nothing turns up) and with the way the ships were set up it has effectivly ment CCP has been doing the fitting for them.

If some highsec miners choose to not bother with anything other than yield then that would be up to them. But frankly, the poor adapability of some highsec players should not mean miners in null, lowsec and WH space along with smart highsec miners should be stuck with boring, pre fitted ships that you cant defend without concord.

From that perspective, that's fine, sensible, reasonable, etc. But there's always going to be the back swing 'You gave my ship these but now I don't have enough of this to do this with it so buff this so I can be Ubertank!' There's also the can't defend them without concord bit. They can be defended. People just are not willing to view them the same way any other fleet is viewed, for fear of profit shares. Not losing a Hulk is a major profit share. But even then, people are not able to come to terms with there will still be cases where the 'other guy' just brought more to the table to gank you.


You don't take a T3 fleet out without logi, Ewar, DPS, and an oh crap plan. Or a null/low mining fleet. High sec Mining fleets should be bound to the same rules. I honestly don't know the best way to address that basic flaw in attitude towards high sec mining. But I still hold that that is the bigger share of the problems. Not opposed to diversifying the barges/re-introducing utility cruisers, but want it to be for the right reasons, not continuous bandaging of the actual problem.

From that perspective, that's fine, sensible, reasonable, etc. But there's always going to be the back swing 'You gave my ship these but now I don't have enough of this to do this with it so buff this so I can be Ubertank!' There's also the can't defend them without concord bit. They can be defended. People just are not willing to view them the same way any other fleet is viewed, for fear of profit shares. Not losing a Hulk is a major profit share. But even then, people are not able to come to terms with there will still be cases where the 'other guy' just brought more to the table to gank you.


You don't take a T3 fleet out without logi, Ewar, DPS, and an oh crap plan. Or a null/low mining fleet. High sec Mining fleets should be bound to the same rules. I honestly don't know the best way to address that basic flaw in attitude towards high sec mining. But I still hold that that is the bigger share of the problems. Not opposed to diversifying the barges/re-introducing utility cruisers, but want it to be for the right reasons, not continuous bandaging of the actual problem.

Flying logi in a combat fleet actualy involves playing the game. A logi boat in a mining fleet doesn't do anything for hours on end other than twiddle their thumbs while watching netflix. Under my idea the logi for the mining fleet is right there mining with you.

IF and only IF you get into a fight. The rest the time you just sit there and warp to gates, or on a titan... and twiddle your thumbs while watching netflix.

Spoken like a man who doesn't fly logi in fleets.

Nah, I flew logi all the time. Was usually logi FC/Anchor.


You can do the research if you want.