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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17893
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Posted - 2016.08.16 11:39:28 -
[31] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Except the skiff and procurer are the only ones that perform as they should.
Bother are overpowered in terms of tank and yield.
Moac Tor wrote: You can't even put the other two in a belt in null sec because the rats will kill them. This is another reason why passive armour tanked miners would be a really bad idea.
Active tank them. I did say give the hulk 7 lows and the cpu and powergrid to actually fit things.
Moac Tor wrote: IMO give the others greater tank, equivalent drone bonuses, and then increase yield and ore bay respectively.That's enough to see all of them getting use.
No that just results in more imbalance. You don't fix an overpowered ship by buffing everything else to match it. |
Arianne Kass
Garoun Long-Term Capital Management
1
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Posted - 2016.08.16 11:59:12 -
[32] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Except the skiff and procurer are the only ones that perform as they should. You can't even put the other two in a belt in null sec because the rats will kill them. This is another reason why passive armour tanked miners would be a really bad idea.
IMO give the others greater tank, equivalent drone bonuses, and then increase yield and ore bay respectively.That's enough to see all of them getting use.
Probably these barges were not balanced around solo play.
In my experience in nullsec you need about 3 flights of medium drones to take down a two battleship spawn reasonably quick, but if the miner getting aggro is in a max-yield Mackinaw he will likely have to warp out. So with four Mackinaws it is already possible to continue mining when rats show up (with maybe one miner warping out briefly).
In addition I can ask for assistance on teamspeak if there are corpmates ratting, or I can swap to a DPS ship in the POS ship hangar.
And in the near future there will likely be a boosting ship in the belt as well, capable of providing remote shield transfer (of course we still need the fitting details of the new mining command ship).
Less whining, more (wo)manning up. |
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1492
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Posted - 2016.08.16 13:22:40 -
[33] - Quote
Arianne Kass wrote: In my experience in nullsec you need about 3 flights of medium drones to take down a two battleship spawn reasonably quick,
Yeah max yield ships should always have trouble tanking, even just rats. Orbiting the ore/ice close and fast can cut incoming dps. Last Procurer i nearly lost was to a Pilgrim that decloaked when the rest of the fleet docked, rats spawned and saved me. Solo Procurer is tough and cheap, pretty good for solo miner. Still, the Proc/Tank, Ret/Cargo, Cov/ Yield should be the template, power creep would be stupid.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Yarosara Ruil
510
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Posted - 2016.08.16 13:32:05 -
[34] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I would propose that if rats are a problem you kill them with something else first then come back. The respawn timers on them are like an hour or some such.
An hour? In Nullsec? That's crazy talk.
In Catch I couldn't finish mining the full 5.000m3 ore hold capacity of a Venture without having to get my Gila out to clean the rats.
And it gets old real fast when the minerals you get from reprocessing the modules you get from clearing rats are more valuable than the ore you get from mining between each clean up.
Once I graduated to a Procurer, I was finding myself killing Battleship rats with it.
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Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
172
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Posted - 2016.08.16 13:44:32 -
[35] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[quote=Moac Tor] You don't buff the other barges to match the skiff, you bring the skiff back down to the level of the other barges. You then give the barges the ability to actually fit things, for example;
Hulk 3 high slots 1 mid slot 7 low slots
Cargo expanders now impact ore holds (ore hold is altered to take this into effect). Reason for changing the barges into armour tankers rather than shield is so you have to make hard choices just like any other ships. Ship EHP would be around the same as a zealot if you fit a tank like you would any other ship or you can just go full yeild and cargo. Its up to the pilot to decide. The 1 mid is to force you to choose between mobility or utility.
This is all meaningless however as CCP have decided to give all barges 2 mining lasers so we can assume at the very least all six barges have 2 high slots with the hulk and covetor getting a bonus to mining laser amount. We can also assume the skiff is losing its 150% bonus to mining laser amount.
why only 1 mid Slot? Make them fighting ships with the additional ability to mine. Why does a ratting ship (aka money making tool) have the ability to fight while the mining barges haven't? If you are tackeld you are dead.
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Sammy Fischer
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2016.08.16 14:20:03 -
[36] - Quote
Am I the only one that sees the irony that people are complaining that "stupid miners" never sacrifice yield for tank and that the procurer/skiff is OP at the same time?
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17899
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Posted - 2016.08.16 15:34:30 -
[37] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote: why only 1 mid Slot? Make them fighting ships with the additional ability to mine. Why does a ratting ship (aka money making tool) have the ability to fight while the mining barges haven't? If you are tackeld you are dead.
On the likes of the hulk and mach the only thing you are likely to fit are a prop mod and a survey scanner. This would mean having to choose between the two.
The skiff and proc I would give a few mids, the drone damage bonus and the ability to tackle targets makes them perfect mining escorts. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2203
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Posted - 2016.08.16 15:36:50 -
[38] - Quote
Sammy Fischer wrote:Am I the only one that sees the irony that people are complaining that "stupid miners" never sacrifice yield for tank and that the procurer/skiff is OP at the same time?
Nope I see it too and I keep finding it very funny.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17899
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Posted - 2016.08.16 15:44:36 -
[39] - Quote
Sammy Fischer wrote:Am I the only one that sees the irony that people are complaining that "stupid miners" never sacrifice yield for tank and that the procurer/skiff is OP at the same time?
Problem with the skiff is that its get a tank on par with a scorpion battleship with no tank fitted and mines only 6.1 units/sec less than the hulk (20 vs 26) plus gets actual fitting room unlike the other barges.
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1492
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Posted - 2016.08.16 16:03:51 -
[40] - Quote
Sammy Fischer wrote:Am I the only one that sees the irony that people are complaining that "stupid miners" never sacrifice yield for tank and that the procurer/skiff is OP at the same time?
No irony there at all, since irony is for talking to servants. The Proc/Skiff tank is incredible, along with the drone bonus a bait or battle skiff can do some epic things, but usually only kills ignorant attackers. I have seen Procurers die to neuting Pilgrims because their tank is dependent on cap. The Procurer/Skiff tank can be softened if it gets more combat ability, the other hulls can be toughened and have some dps delivery added. Maybe hulls could be ranged from fighty/tanky/high yield. The only real problem with that i can see is the weird maniacs that sit slurping up hisec crumbs will become unkillable, which is to their detriment. Gee i hope i didn't respond to a sock-puppet. The smug "Oh it's hilarious..." tone is straight out cancer.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
568
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Posted - 2016.08.16 16:29:14 -
[41] - Quote
I'm with Solecist here.
First off, the Retriver is fine. I have one and in .8 or higher a lone Catalyst could not gank it before Concord got there. If it had help to either pull Concord away or multiples, then yes, it could be ganked. However, it mines so fast that it pays for itself in HiSec in just a few hours. Ganks aren't that common folks.
Second off, Barges aren't allowed weapons. You cannot get a Hulk with offensive weapons on it for proper defense. These are large Cruisers, they should have the capacitor and high power slots to mount weapons. In the same way they separated turrets from missile launcher hardpoints, strip mining hardpoints should be a thing too. Thus a Hulk should have at least 5 high power slots, 3 rated for Strip Mining hardware, 2 rated for turrets and missiles. Yes, you could have that ship with one Strip miner and 2 turrets and 2 missles. It takes forever to skill into a Hulk, it should be a nasty ship. Yes, it should take a proper fleet to take on a mining fleet.
Having said that, mining itself needs to be interactive as I've said in other threads. AFK mining should produce very reduced yields. Thus, Asteroids and Ice should generate lower yields as they are mined. Start at 100% volume of the Mining Tool with a fresh target, then make the mining cycle go longer and longer *OR* reduce the yield of each cycle as the target deteriorates. Thus you have to keep scanning and moving around the field to get optimal yield.
Also, the rats need to be more numerous in HiSec. Don't send a couple of frigates, send a small Rat fleet: 3 Frigates, 2 Destroyers, 1 Cruiser. Make the miners fight at least NPC's. Mix it up, have a 3 Cruiser squadron visit. Make the fleets even larger if the players in the system leave the combat sites laying around. Make the miners deal with combat sites or face large ratting fleets.
Until then, it's somewhat balanced now, not optimal, but balanced. I flew a Retriever for quite a while, many times traversing Uedama. It's not as bad as it's made out to be... on either side of this debate.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
40
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:00:11 -
[42] - Quote
Since the new art shows 2 turrets per hull, I think you will see an even more dumbed down ship bonus system.
Each hull will get the same base stats, fittings, and skill bonuses while the 3 types of ships will get role bonuses specific to that eole. For example, skiff will get drone and hp role bonus, mack will get hold bonus, and hulk will get yield bonus.
That means skiff and mack have same yield, skiff and hulk have same hold, mack and hulk have same tank. |
Solecist Project
32180
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:21:53 -
[43] - Quote
Reddit has the sisi stats ... ... no, i refuse to link it. :P
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
653
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:22:54 -
[44] - Quote
Caco De'mon wrote:*hint*
kill the rats first Caleb Seremshur wrote:I would propose that if rats are a problem you kill them with something else first then come back. The respawn timers on them are like an hour or some such. I am guessing a lot of the people who are commenting have probably never tried fitting and mining in a barge, let alone mined in low or null sec. ...
Rats respawn around every 15 minutes or so and that isn't taking into account systems with a large number of belts where there are a lot already spawned initially. They don't just disappear and leave you alone for an hour after you've killed them.
baltec1 wrote:No that just results in more imbalance. You don't fix an overpowered ship by buffing everything else to match it Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.
Pandora Carrollon wrote:Also, the rats need to be more numerous in HiSec. Don't send a couple of frigates, send a small Rat fleet: 3 Frigates, 2 Destroyers, 1 Cruiser. Make the miners fight at least NPC's. Mix it up, have a 3 Cruiser squadron visit. Make the fleets even larger if the players in the system leave the combat sites laying around. Make the miners deal with combat sites or face large ratting fleets. I agree with this. The rats should be harder so they offer more challenging gameplay, and then barges should be buffed respectively so they can meet the new challenge. I'd like to see mining more akin to running a mission, and a barge more akin to a mission running ship. Sure you could optimise your fit and still fit a completely passive tank and AFK it, although this should reduce your yield and ability due to sacrificing fitting for the extra shield modules.
For a start, if I was balancing I would give all the T1 barges 25MB bandwidth with 10% bonus to drone HP, damage, and mining yield, and T2 barges 50MB bandwidth again with the 10% bonus to drone HP, damage, and mining yield.
Drones should be an essential part of the barge's defence and contribute toward it's total yield. That way fitting would be a lot more interesting as to get max yield you'd need to make real sacrifices by maximising the amount of drone mods at the expense of EHP.
The good drone bay is one of the reasons the procurer and skiff are so popular as people can kill the rats at the same time as mining earning them a little extra ISK and perhaps get a nice faction drop at the same time. The procurer / skiff is actually the only barge that is semi interesting to use in a belt. And so unless you want to relegate 66.6% of the barge lineup to purely fleet operations, then all the barges should work in a similar way to the procurer / skiff but with their own twist gearing them towards EHP, ore capacity, or yield.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
653
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:31:45 -
[45] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Reddit has the sisi stats ... ... no, i refuse to link it. :P
Well, not much of a rework after all if Sisi is anything to go by. I don't expect the procuer / skiff to lose it's crown over such changes.
The covetor / hulk got a decent boost to it's yield though with the addition of the extra low slot. It is still going to be a fleet mining ship though. And the retriever is still going to be for the AFK easy gank target barge. They might come more into their own though with the release of the new mining command ships.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Solecist Project
32181
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:36:33 -
[46] - Quote
Oh boy, this will be a mining expansion and prices will never be the same again.
SELL SELL SELL!!
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17902
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:41:43 -
[47] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.
They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack. |
Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
156
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:58:37 -
[48] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote: Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.
They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack. No longer.
- Procurer / Skiff mining capabilities will remain unchanged
- Retrievers / Mackinaws will get a 25% boost (to +36.25% / +25% over Procurer / Skiff)
- Covetors / Hulks will get a 7.65% boost (to +45.33% / +41.18% over Procurer / Skiff).
(Presuming max-yield fit, since the Covetor and Hulk are getting 3rd low slots... so without any MLUs, the yield of those two will actually go *down* a bit)
Until all are free...
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
569
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Posted - 2016.08.16 22:03:26 -
[49] - Quote
Looked at the stats and I'm not sure what CCP is thinking here.
It seems to make a smaller choice window of ships (less specialized) but a little more granular choice in the actual build of the ship. Giving them all two high slots is really the clincher to the deal. An extra low? Either going to yield or to tank.
Overall, meh. Doesn't address the issues with mining at all or make it more fun. It simplifies it to some extent but makes some ships basically irrelevant. If they were going to do this, I'd have dropped out the dual high slot class (retriever, mackinaw) and kept the Procurer/Skiff and Covetor/Hulk. Being in the middle of the extremes is milquetoast.
Not much to see here folks... move along...
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Solecist Project
32182
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Posted - 2016.08.16 22:07:25 -
[50] - Quote
Pandora Carrollon wrote:Looked at the stats and I'm not sure what CCP is thinking here.
It seems to make a smaller choice window of ships (less specialized) but a little more granular choice in the actual build of the ship. Giving them all two high slots is really the clincher to the deal. An extra low? Either going to yield or to tank.
Overall, meh. Doesn't address the issues with mining at all or make it more fun. It simplifies it to some extent but makes some ships basically irrelevant. If they were going to do this, I'd have dropped out the dual high slot class (retriever, mackinaw) and kept the Procurer/Skiff and Covetor/Hulk. Being in the middle of the extremes is milquetoast.
Not much to see here folks... move along... Would you like mining to be more fun?
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17902
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Posted - 2016.08.16 22:24:33 -
[51] - Quote
I'm messing around with the hulk right now and it suffers from the same issues. Skiff also retains its silly high base EHP. It seems the mack is now the high yield ship while the hulk mines faster. The skiff still gets three times the base tank of the hulk, the covetor is still screwed with its one mid and three lows as is the retriver. Procurer is the only good choice in the barge lineup as it has a little over 4x the tank with nothing fitted and 4 mids and two lows to play with. |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
108
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Posted - 2016.08.16 22:53:54 -
[52] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I'm messing around with the hulk right now and it suffers from the same issues. Skiff also retains its silly high base EHP. It seems the mack is now the high yield ship while the hulk mines faster. The skiff still gets three times the base tank of the hulk, the covetor is still screwed with its one mid and three lows as is the retriver. Procurer is the only good choice in the barge lineup as it has a little over 4x the tank with nothing fitted and 4 mids and two lows to play with. I cant believe I am about to agree with you... but +1 |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
653
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:01:32 -
[53] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack. baltec1 wrote:They have battleship level tanks That bit is fine...
Their offensive capability is limited, they are as slow as heck, and yield and capacity are at the low end of the barge line up. Why should they not have decent EHP... If it is simply so they can be ganked in high sec, then sorry but ship balance shouldn't be determined by high sec gankers.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17902
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:09:06 -
[54] - Quote
Ok having messed around with them all:
Hulk and Mack can only work with a CPU mod but fitting one means the skiff is simply a better ship.
The covetor and retriever have no fitting options at all, the procurer is the only option. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
653
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:19:27 -
[55] - Quote
Kueyen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote: Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.
They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack. No longer.
- Procurer / Skiff mining capabilities will remain unchanged
- Retrievers / Mackinaws will get a 25% boost (to +36.25% / +25% over Procurer / Skiff)
- Covetors / Hulks will get a 7.65% boost (to +45.33% / +41.18% over Procurer / Skiff).
(Presuming max-yield fit, since the Covetor and Hulk are getting 3rd low slots... so without any MLUs, the yield of those two will actually go *down* a bit) So it seems as though retriever is getting a big boost making it a tough choice between the procurer in areas in which a high level of defense isn't required.
The covetor is still the fleet mining ship but pretty poor for smaller operations.
The procurer seems to have stayed about the same.
Yep so nothing much changed except the retriever / mack is slighly more desirable over the procurer / skiff now for smaller operations. In a 3 man group it may be worth swapping a procurer for dedicated defense and bringing two retrievers.
I would need to crunch the numbers but at a glance it seems like CCP has just accentuated the pre-existing bonuses on the retriever, and covetor to a lesser degree.
baltec1 wrote:Ok having messed around with them all:
Hulk and Mack can only work with a CPU mod but fitting one means the skiff is simply a better ship.
The covetor and retriever have no fitting options at all, the procurer is the only option. Is this including processor overclocking unit rigs?
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17902
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:20:43 -
[56] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:baltec1 wrote:They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack. baltec1 wrote:They have battleship level tanks That bit is fine... Their offensive capability is limited, they are as slow as heck, and yield and capacity are at the low end of the barge line up. Why should they not have decent EHP... If it is simply so they can be ganked in high sec, then sorry but ship balance shouldn't be determined by high sec gankers.
The skiff and procurer on tranq are the T3C of the mining world. Too much of everything in one package. They should be around the same base hp as the other barges and have bonuses to combat. As I said, the barges need more fitting slots and CPU/PG so you can fit them like you fit every other ship out there. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17902
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:24:06 -
[57] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Is this including processor overclocking unit rigs?
At least one rig or one low needs a CPU mod/rig in it to actually fit it.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
570
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:34:31 -
[58] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Would you like mining to be more fun?
It should be as challenging as any other PvE style activity. Mining in HiSec should be at least as 'fun' as running an L3 mission. Lo-Null Sec, L4 missions, and WH L5 missions.
Combat-wise, if it were this way, miners could actually have a shot at defending themselves in case other players jumped them, and if the attacking players screwed up, the miners could actually win.
As it is now, if the miner is warp scrambled, it's a dead ship and only pure luck or a serious goof by the attacker will save the ship.
So, yeah, more fun, more fight. However none of this is how I would've implemented mining had I been designing this from scratch in the EVE universe.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
653
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:36:02 -
[59] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote: Is this including processor overclocking unit rigs?
At least one rig or one low needs a CPU mod/rig in it to actually fit it. That's not too bad then because rigs slots aren't as valuable as lows, and a T2 POU rig is good value whilst still leaving room to be able to fit 2 core defence extenders with the remaining 100 calibration or a single T2 shield rig for the T2 barges.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Sargon Matrix
Perkone Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2016.08.16 23:52:36 -
[60] - Quote
Kueyen wrote:No longer.
- Procurer / Skiff mining capabilities will remain unchanged
- Retrievers / Mackinaws will get a 25% boost (to +36.25% / +25% over Procurer / Skiff)
- Covetors / Hulks will get a 7.65% boost (to +45.33% / +41.18% over Procurer / Skiff).
(Presuming max-yield fit, since the Covetor and Hulk are getting 3rd low slots... so without any MLUs, the yield of those two will actually go *down* a bit)
Does anybody have a link to these stats? |
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