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Jagd Wilde
The Scope Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:15:02 -
[211] - Quote
The deal is, if you dont like EVE, which has been going strong since 2003, why play?
Is it just to try to impose some sort of misguided RL moral sympathies on others? Tyrants, leave EVE now. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2950
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:23:19 -
[212] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote: Not all opinions are equal.
My opinion is an informed opinion based on the study CCP provided. They invested time to actually look into the data and verify their initial assumption which was that ganking harms player retention. We can assume that CCP is a credible source and has a strong motivation of getting this right because this is actually a critical information for their business and they depend on it to make the right decisions.
Your opinion is a gut feeling based on nothing at all. You did not look into the data, you did not invest any time at all to verify your view or can present a credible source who did this and came to the conclusions you present here. You are the proverbial esoteric freak who thinks his weird idea of how the world works which he got from his last LSD trip is on the same level as the physicist's model which they acquired by actually investing time looking into how things work and weed out false ideas.
Why can you assume that a company with no statistical back ground is a credible source? Let me guess you are one of these people who buy things because they are advertised as new and improved or the best around. You believe what they have said because it is what you want them to have said. Nothing more. My opinion is exactly that my opinion but I do not hold up unproven statistics as if they are the bible either. And physicist's model? physicist's models are designed to test if a theory is false, not if it is true and it is not like there have not been numerous that were just plain out wrong. God I really hope you are some pimply teenager still at school. A model in physics is a whole body of theories. Theories and whole models are wrong all the time and the scientific method is used to find the ones which are wrong, by actually looking into things and test if the predictions they make survive reality. This was the point I tried to make. CCP like you had a theory about that people quit because of the mean gankers. Other than you they actually tested this assumption and the results are in the study they presented. They falsified the carebear theory. You are wrong, we where right. It's as simple as that.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
320
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:26:20 -
[213] - Quote
Jagd Wilde wrote:Why would you play a PVP sandbox and not PVP? That is the type of mentality you leave outside EVE. Uh, no.
You miscategorized the term PvP, as do most children.
For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play.
I bet you're one of those people that think your music is SO great that you roll down your windows and blast it.
G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2854
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:29:38 -
[214] - Quote
pajedas wrote:For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play. They can. They can play however they want according to the rules of the game.
It just happens that Eve Online has rules that say you are never safe anywhere. The whole universe is a PvP zone. If you don't like that rule, you shouldn't play the game.
Don't hate the players, hate the game.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2952
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:29:53 -
[215] - Quote
pajedas wrote:When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem.
I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Jagd Wilde
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:30:12 -
[216] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Jagd Wilde wrote:Why would you play a PVP sandbox and not PVP? That is the type of mentality you leave outside EVE. Uh, no. You miscategorized the term PvP, as do most children. For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play. I bet you're one of those people that think your music is SO great that you roll down your windows and blast it.
Uh no. PVP means PVP. EVE is not for the weak.
Why should I let anyone play like they want if it contradicts the way I want to play, hence PVP.
You should prolly look into other entertainment options.
And really, try to seperate RL from game please musik boy |
pajedas
Special Activities Division
320
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:32:28 -
[217] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:You are wrong, we where right. It's as simple as that. And they said that they would NEVER get away from the training time for skills. That was essential to what makes Eve so special. No cheating, no buying your way out of or around if. You see how that worked out, didn't you? Because their management ONLY has good ideas, right? Give me a break. They sold out a long time ago.
Now Eve is FTP!
Yeah, you really proved us wrong, whoever that is...
G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
320
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:39:24 -
[218] - Quote
Jagd Wilde wrote:EVE is not for the weak. Weak is not having to pay to upgrade your clone. +1 for suicide ganking.
Literally have no consequences for your actions makes you the weak one.
G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
320
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:43:48 -
[219] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:pajedas wrote:When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem.
I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. You're doing great work for Eve Online by trying to drive people away from the game.
Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone.
G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
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Gealbhan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
528
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:44:37 -
[220] - Quote
You need to get back in there, kick some ass and chew some gum! I'm all out of gum for ya. |
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
359
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:48:14 -
[221] - Quote
pajedas wrote:
Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone.
Do you and IWY know each other IRL? Because I'm totally seeing one alt saying that he's played longer than another alt...
--Gadget...also an alt (somedays).
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
320
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Posted - 2016.10.20 14:51:05 -
[222] - Quote
I'll debate this outside of moderation.
Trolls are too quick to anonymously report posts that hurt their fragile psyche.
"Notifications off."
G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2953
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Posted - 2016.10.20 15:01:00 -
[223] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:pajedas wrote:When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem.
I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. You're doing great work for Eve Online by trying to drive people away from the game. Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. You know, continuously repeating your assumption that ganking somehow harms the game will not magically make it true.
Fact: if you play a game for over 10 years and still struggle with the basics that probably says something about you.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
303
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Posted - 2016.10.20 15:02:46 -
[224] - Quote
pajedas wrote:I'll debate this outside of moderation. Trolls are too quick to anonymously report posts that hurt their fragile psyche. "Notifications off."
Oh boy! Another anti-ganking blog no one will read! Funny how this thread was about bumping and you guys turned it into an anti-ganking thread.
What are you even talking about? I saw one post removed in this entire thread. I'm guessing it was you calling someone a bad name because your impotent rage took over? |
Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
53
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Posted - 2016.10.20 15:43:46 -
[225] - Quote
pajedas wrote:
For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play.
Its amazing how often this gets spoken by people that have no intent on letting people play the way they want to play. |
Jagd Wilde
The Scope Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2016.10.20 16:11:01 -
[226] - Quote
pajedas wrote:
Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone.
So you have been playing since 2005 and that means what? Only that you have been playing wrong if you are this mad.
I have not played nearly as long as you
And I learned EVE is about PVP. I have been an EVE fan since I saw the first screenshots of Hillmar's. I came back to EVE with the intention of starting a gank alt and killing highsec miners. My alt loves killing miners, and will continue to do so on a yearly subbed account, long after high blood pressure (in game of course) leaves you as nothing more than dust.
Why would you play a game 11 ish years if you hate so much about it?
Everything you hate, I love about EVE. And it makes me laugh, which makes me think you and I will never agree. And that's OK not to agree, but you seen combative. Why not put that combativeness to work doing "real PVP"?
How can anyone that cares about the game support risk free highsec? Nobody's gettin rich killing miners, it's necessary. And fun. |
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
77
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Posted - 2016.10.20 16:22:16 -
[227] - Quote
pajedas wrote:I'll debate this outside of moderation. Trolls are too quick to anonymously report posts that hurt their fragile psyche. "Notifications off."
Lol the forum equivalent of stamping your feet and slamming the door.
Something tells me we haven't tasted the last of those juicy Pajedas tears. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5398
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Posted - 2016.10.20 17:22:15 -
[228] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:[quote=Ima Wreckyou] Why can you assume that a company with no statistical back ground is a credible source?
Let me guess you are one of these people who buy things because they are advertised as new and improved or the best around.
You believe what they have said because it is what you want them to have said. Nothing more.
My opinion is exactly that my opinion but I do not hold up unproven statistics as if they are the bible either.
And physicist's model? physicist's models are designed to test if a theory is false, not if it is true and it is not like there have not been numerous that were just plain out wrong. God I really hope you are some pimply teenager still at school.
I wouldn't be so sure about the lack of understanding about statistics. You were just bashing "us" about assumptions regarding the analysis and the 80,000 players being a random sample. Now you turn around and make an assumption too.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5398
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Posted - 2016.10.20 17:28:00 -
[229] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:I am obviously joking. We even get that in the same thread. 'There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem.' T. Siedner, London NW2When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people.
How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"?
Quote:I guarantee that in life you are more a mouse than a lion. And before you go crying to the moderators saying, "the big scary man was mean to me" consider this. Why are gankers ALWAYS the first to cry for moderation?
There it is, now because one ganks in game one must be a coward IRL. And I think it is safe to conclude nobody here thinks of you as a big scary man.
Quote: I'll start a blog outside of here "free" of moderation and see how you fare...
In other words, you'll moderate it so those who have a view different than yours won't be allowed. Coward.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18325
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 17:29:02 -
[230] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. Welcome to EVE! ;) At the end of the day, that's just one person's opinion. I respect CCP Falcon. Has anyone asked him what he would do if subscriber-ship was so low because of this type of thinking, that they resorted to giving the game away, what would he do? Would he still want to be "working on the project"? I mean, really...a paycheck is nice...no?
EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when there was a lot more PvP in highsec. EVE is seeing falling numbers now that it has the least amount of PvP in highsec.
Facts don't back you up here. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18325
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Posted - 2016.10.20 17:41:46 -
[231] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"?
The answer to that is simple. They haven't. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26997
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 17:48:19 -
[232] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"?
The answer to that is simple. They haven't. Oh well played, especially as he was making a thing about the age of posters characters.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5398
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 18:28:24 -
[233] - Quote
TL;DR: If you are imprudent you are actually risk seeking, you are looking for risk. If you are a hauler and think the risk vs. reward is out of whack...change the ******* reward you nimrods.
Session 1 wrote:As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper).
Really? How much ganking is there? As I have brought up before all you have is half the picture. You only see the ganked ships, you do not see the ships not ganked.
This can lead to totally wrong conclusions and was pointed out about 150 years ago by Frederic Bastiat. Maybe you are right, but when CCP actually did some analysis it pointed to exactly the opposite conclusion. That it is a feature not a bug. Again, maybe this is wrong, but you are arguing with incomplete information.
Quote:"Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy.
CCP has stated time and again, that HS is just that "high security space" not "safe space" but "safer space". That is so long as I am willing to accept the consequences I can shoot you in HS.
Now groups of players have gotten together and decided, "Yes we are willing to accept such consequences." And on top of it when it is freighter ganking they can also pick and choose which freighters to shoot and...they pick the imprudent players. Freighter gankers are like predators culling the weak and sickly from the herd. Gankers are culling the imprudent from the herd.
To be honest, I wish a version of this could happen IRL. I wish during the financial crisis the imprudent were culled from the herd (allowed to fail) to send a clear message, "If you are imprudent and take on too much risk, and it goes bad you are SOL."
The Bank of England did that back in 1866 with Overend, Gurney and Company. Up until that point the bank of England would bail out imprudent banks, so England went through periodic financial crises. Finally the Bank of England, in a nutshell said, "Nope, we will no longer bailout the imprudent." Overend Gurney got into trouble went to the Bank of England, the Bank of England said, "Sorry, we weren't joking." Overend and Gurney failed, there was a banking panic, a few other banks failed, the directors of Overend and Gurney were tried for fraud, however the judge found them guilty of grave error instead of fraud. But the key point is that the financial system in England was free of financial crises from that point forward until WWI. Rewarding imprudence is NEVER a good thing. All you get is more imprudence.
Quote:In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences".
Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history.
****when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp.
There are consequences. Unless ganking is going to be subsidized (e.g. James 315's little crusade) for ganking to be sustainable, it has to be the case that ganking turns a profit. But for ganking to turn a profit, then target selection is important. Just to break even you need to take into account the number of catalysts in your fleet and then double it. That is the minimum value you can gank. So if you have 40 dudes in catalysts and catalysts cost 9 million each, then we are talking the cargo value has to be at least 720 million ISK. In that case, over time you'll break even. Now if you want to also hand out some ISK to your pilots as an added incentive than the minimum value goes up from there. For example if you need 720 million for the ship replacement, and you want to give each pilot 4.5 million ISK on top of the ship replacement, you'll need a freighter with 1.44 billion ISK worth of cargo.
What does all this mean? Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. Let me repeat that...
Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take.
You exercise this influence by....not putting too much value in your freighter.
It is not like diversifying an investment portfolio. Why do you diversify an investment portfolio? Well, if the risk of the various investments going down in value are not correlated....well then you reduce your risk of losing everything.
Same thing with hauling. If you put 6 billion in your freighter you are a much more gank-worthy target than if you put 1 billion in your freighter. The gankers who gank for profit will be looking for much more profitable targets. In fact, that 40 man fleet will not want to gank you as they are much more likely to incur a loss.
Yes, yes, this is not a guarantee against ganking...but then I never said it was. Some might do it just for the luls as has been indicated. But you can still reduce that risk too. Use a scout. Do not autopilot. Tank your freighter, especially when empty so they need more guys.
This is why I find people who complain about freighter ganking contemptible. They are literally no better than than those on Wall Street who thought a bailout for their own imprudent and even fraudulent behavior was a good thing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5398
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Posted - 2016.10.20 18:29:34 -
[234] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"?
The answer to that is simple. They haven't. Oh well played, especially as he was making a thing about the age of posters characters.
Figured....nice one baltec1.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
696
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Posted - 2016.10.20 19:40:32 -
[235] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:pajedas wrote:When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem.
I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. You're doing great work for Eve Online by trying to drive people away from the game. Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone.
1. We're not driving anyone away, plebe. 2. No, you didn't and no you won't be.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
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Session 1
Smokin' Aces.
5
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Posted - 2016.10.20 21:12:12 -
[236] - Quote
Galaxy Duck wrote:Session 1 wrote:As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper).
"Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy.
In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences".
Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history.
****when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp. CCP Falcon wrote:
"I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.
Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.
Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.
That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.
EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.
Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight :)"
Welcome to EVE! ;)
There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said...
Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk)
Ironic. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26998
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 21:23:27 -
[237] - Quote
Session 1 wrote:There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said...
Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk)
Ironic. Wrong.
There's a risk that nothing will drop, there's a risk that the gank will fail, there's a risk that other players will interfere; that's 3 straight off the bat.
If you want to see increased risk or more consequences for gankers that go further than those provided by the game engine, then it is up to other players, which includes you, to provide more risk and consequences for them.
Eve is not a game that holds your hand while you play, and if it does hold your hand it is to steal your finger and wrist jewellery.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18335
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 21:28:12 -
[238] - Quote
Session 1 wrote:
There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said...
Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk)
Ironic.
List for us the risks you think gankers should have. |
Session 1
Smokin' Aces.
5
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 21:28:54 -
[239] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Session 1 wrote:There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said...
Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk)
Ironic. Wrong. There's a risk that nothing will drop, there's a risk that the gank will fail, there's a risk that other players will interfere; that's 3 examples of the risks that gankers face straight off the bat. If you want to see increased risk or more consequences for gankers that go further than those provided by the game engine, then it is up to other players, which includes you, to provide more risk and consequences for them. Eve is not a game that holds your hand while you play; on the off-chance that it does hold your hand, it is to steal your finger and wrist jewellery.
I said risk VS reward. Anyone can name millions of trivial risks.
Try again. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26998
|
Posted - 2016.10.20 21:31:38 -
[240] - Quote
Session 1 wrote:I said risk VS reward. Anyone can name millions of trivial risks.
Try again. You opened with the following.
Quote:There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play.
I addressed that part of your post.
As for risk vs reward, if they fail or the loot fairy is greedy, they get no reward
On a side note, the potential rewards for ganking are entirely in the hands of their prey.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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